0:00:00 > 0:00:05Welcome back. It's only a word but it can provoke very strong feelings.
0:00:05 > 0:00:09We'll delve into the arguments surrounding immigration
0:00:09 > 0:00:11tonight on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22Welcome to the programme. During the next half an hour,
0:00:22 > 0:00:26we'll have an opportunity to put the world to rights with our guests.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Later, we'll discuss the future of our chapels
0:00:29 > 0:00:32and we'll hear from one familiar face who feels strongly
0:00:32 > 0:00:36that we're not doing enough to protect them.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38Today, we are in a crisis,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42and people should be asking questions of themselves
0:00:42 > 0:00:45and the authorities.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Which buildings are worth keeping
0:00:47 > 0:00:50and what are we doing to protect those buildings?
0:00:50 > 0:00:54More on that later. First, we welcome Vaughan Roderick.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58Also joining us tonight are the journalist, John Stevenson,
0:00:58 > 0:01:03Reverend Aled Edwards, the Chair of the Wales Migration Partnership,
0:01:03 > 0:01:06and from Bangor, Bethan Jones Parry, a journalist
0:01:06 > 0:01:10and President of the Dyfodol i'r Iaith organisation. Welcome.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14First, we're going to turn our attention
0:01:14 > 0:01:17to a burning political issue - immigration.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Specifically, Wales' experiences of welcoming workers
0:01:20 > 0:01:24from Eastern Europe, just a month after the coverage of the changes
0:01:24 > 0:01:28to European laws, which will make it easier for more people
0:01:28 > 0:01:31from Romania and Bulgaria to come to Britain to work.
0:01:31 > 0:01:37Vaughan, these changes received a lot of coverage.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40This such a difficult issue, politically.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44It's a difficult issue because there are two different things.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46It is easy to get confused between them.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50It's not unreasonable for people to be concerned about the effects
0:01:50 > 0:01:53of people moving into their local area and community,
0:01:53 > 0:01:57whether that is people moving from Birmingham to Meirionnydd
0:01:57 > 0:02:01or people from Eastern Europe moving to a town in England.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03At the same time,
0:02:03 > 0:02:09there are racist elements which can be linked to this argument.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13What politicians always try to do but don't always succeed in doing
0:02:13 > 0:02:18is to maintain the balance between a reasonable argument,
0:02:18 > 0:02:20listening to reasonable concerns,
0:02:20 > 0:02:26while not feeding this monster in terms of prejudice.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28John, you follow events in Romania very closely
0:02:28 > 0:02:33and all these pages in the tabloids had a lot of attention over there
0:02:33 > 0:02:35and it wasn't appreciated.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39Not at all. The coverage this issue was getting in newspapers
0:02:39 > 0:02:42like The Daily Express and The Mail was staggering.
0:02:42 > 0:02:46As Vaughan suggested, it was verging on racism.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49The reaction from people I know,
0:02:49 > 0:02:55I speak to people at the Romanian Embassy in London regularly
0:02:55 > 0:02:57and they couldn't believe it.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59It's a fundamental principle
0:02:59 > 0:03:03because Romania is part of the European Union.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05These people have the right to move.
0:03:05 > 0:03:11But it's also important to link the argument about this specific issue
0:03:11 > 0:03:17to the wider argument within politics over whether Britain
0:03:17 > 0:03:20should be part of the European Union.
0:03:20 > 0:03:25Aled, we heard warnings that there would be a flood of people
0:03:25 > 0:03:28from Poland coming to Britain a few years ago.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30It's not going to happen this time either, is it?
0:03:30 > 0:03:33In the case of Romania and Bulgaria,
0:03:33 > 0:03:38there was some movement after the A8 came in.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42We did see an increase in the number of Polish people living in Wales
0:03:42 > 0:03:46but there is no evidence that they have damaged the economy
0:03:46 > 0:03:48or the welfare state.
0:03:48 > 0:03:50They may have squeezed salaries
0:03:50 > 0:03:53but there is little evidence of that as well.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57I would say the attention given to Romania and Bulgaria
0:03:57 > 0:04:00was politics at its worst.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03Anyone who understands the issue would know that the academics have
0:04:03 > 0:04:07already moved here because they've been able to do so since 2007.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11Beyond that, they're more likely to go to countries like Spain
0:04:11 > 0:04:13where there is a Latin tradition.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16We also have to remember that we migrate.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18There are a million Britons in Spain.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22But, Bethan, there are concerns in communities across Britain
0:04:22 > 0:04:24and here in Wales.
0:04:24 > 0:04:28It might be a taboo to discuss those concerns at times.
0:04:28 > 0:04:34I think it's about time we had a mature discussion about immigration.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37I agree with John, to some extent.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42It makes me angry that the boundaries of this debate
0:04:42 > 0:04:45are utilised by some newspapers,
0:04:45 > 0:04:49which want to sell and make a profit, by scaremongering.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53That is now interfering with our ability to have a debate
0:04:53 > 0:04:55which is badly needed.
0:04:55 > 0:05:01Let's look at the unique experience of one community in Wales.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06Janet Ebenezer has been to rural Carmarthenshire.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10Llanybydder, a small town in Carmarthenshire.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13When you think of economic migration across Europe,
0:05:13 > 0:05:18you wouldn't expect rural Wales to be an attraction.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21The situation is a little different here,
0:05:21 > 0:05:25mainly because of the work that is available locally.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29According to a report by South Wales Police in 2010,
0:05:29 > 0:05:3212% of the population are from Poland.
0:05:33 > 0:05:38On the outskirts of the town is the Dunbia meat processing factory,
0:05:38 > 0:05:40which employs over 600 people
0:05:40 > 0:05:44and a large percentage of the workforce are from Eastern Europe.
0:05:44 > 0:05:49Many from Slovakia and the Czech Republic, but mainly from Poland.
0:05:49 > 0:05:54Basically, if you need to do something to make money,
0:05:54 > 0:05:56you need to move out from Poland
0:05:56 > 0:06:00because Poland is a hard place for all right now.
0:06:00 > 0:06:01It's no so bad.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04Sometimes it's very hard.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09Money is a very important part of life.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11That is why I come here.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13I like living in Llanybydder.
0:06:13 > 0:06:19I was living in Pencarreg, it's only a couple of miles ago,
0:06:19 > 0:06:23so now I am living in Llanybydder
0:06:23 > 0:06:26I have not so far to go to work.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28The people are nice,
0:06:28 > 0:06:32even the Welsh people, they are really nice to us.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36The local councillor is adamant that the workers from Eastern Europe
0:06:36 > 0:06:39contribute to the local economy.
0:06:39 > 0:06:45Particularly in Llanybydder because many shops have closed,
0:06:45 > 0:06:48businesses, there's only one bank remaining,
0:06:48 > 0:06:51and every one who lives in the village,
0:06:51 > 0:06:56I'm sure there must be 200 to 300 in this area,
0:06:56 > 0:07:00and they help not just the shops but the Post Office,
0:07:00 > 0:07:02the banks and all kinds of things.
0:07:02 > 0:07:08The men help on farms and in other businesses, not just at Dubia.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11But local people have mixed feelings
0:07:11 > 0:07:14because they've seen significant changes in a short space of time.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17They keep themselves to themselves.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19You used to know everyone in Llanybydder.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22These days, you hardly know anyone.
0:07:22 > 0:07:27Young people are struggling to buy homes and start families
0:07:27 > 0:07:32and the council tax is expensive for families.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35When they have five or six people living in a house together,
0:07:35 > 0:07:37it works out a lot cheaper.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40I know the people from Poland are willing to do that
0:07:40 > 0:07:46but here you just want to live with your partner and your children.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48It's been pretty good.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52They work with us and they work hard.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56They don't miss work often. They've had a warm welcome.
0:07:56 > 0:08:02The latest statistics for Wales estimate that 25,000 people
0:08:02 > 0:08:05from Eastern Europe have made their home here
0:08:05 > 0:08:08and 19,000 of those are from Poland.
0:08:08 > 0:08:13A recent survey by the National Centre for Social Research
0:08:13 > 0:08:18suggests three quarters of British people want to see a cut
0:08:18 > 0:08:20in the number of immigrants.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24And although he acknowledges that they contribute to local economies,
0:08:24 > 0:08:27the councillor also has his concerns.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31It is going to affect people's employment in the end,
0:08:31 > 0:08:33if too many arrive.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36I think we do need to stop at some point.
0:08:37 > 0:08:39The picture in Llanybydder.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42Bethan Jones Parry, we will talk about jobs in a moment,
0:08:42 > 0:08:44but in places like Llanybydder,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47are you concerned about the effect on the language?
0:08:47 > 0:08:52Naturally, you are concerned, but I'd like to make the point,
0:08:52 > 0:08:56I heard an item on S4C a while ago,
0:08:56 > 0:08:58and on Radio Cymru,
0:08:58 > 0:09:04in which a child of a family from Poland was fluent in Welsh.
0:09:04 > 0:09:09My point is, I worked for a man who was an Englishman
0:09:09 > 0:09:13of Swedish descent who had migrated to Wales
0:09:13 > 0:09:18and he made a significant difference in promoting the Welsh language
0:09:18 > 0:09:20within the police.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22That is the thing.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27Not so much who arrives and why,
0:09:27 > 0:09:33but how they contribute to society and live within the community
0:09:33 > 0:09:39and how the respect between both cultures can flourish.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43There's no doubt that we have to consider the Welsh language in that.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47John, we remember the problems Gordon Brown had when he said,
0:09:47 > 0:09:49"British jobs for British workers."
0:09:50 > 0:09:55Would local people want the jobs being done by these people?
0:09:55 > 0:09:59That's the exact point the Labour Minister in Romania
0:09:59 > 0:10:01made before Christmas.
0:10:01 > 0:10:06We don't know how many people will come from Romania to Britain
0:10:06 > 0:10:10but she felt one reason was that they were being drawn here
0:10:10 > 0:10:15because they are willing to work in the jobs British people don't want.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19To what degree, and this is interesting to me,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22there is a prejudice here.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25The oldest prejudice in Europe...
0:10:25 > 0:10:28the two oldest, I would argue, are against Jews and Gypsies.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31We know there are significant minorities
0:10:31 > 0:10:34of Roma, as they're now known, in those countries.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38Do you think that feeds into this?
0:10:38 > 0:10:43I don't want to portray Romania as some sort of paradise
0:10:43 > 0:10:45because it's not.
0:10:45 > 0:10:49I was in Moldova the year before last, the country next to Romania.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53I was there for a conference and there was a rally,
0:10:53 > 0:10:57and it was a rally organised by the Orthodox Church
0:10:57 > 0:11:01outside the Moldovan Parliament, which was discussing
0:11:01 > 0:11:05changing the constitution on the order of the EU,
0:11:05 > 0:11:09to stop prejudice against the Roma, homosexuals and women.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11Aled Edwards.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14In terms of the Welsh language, we have to acknowledge
0:11:14 > 0:11:17that the biggest factor which threatens the Welsh language
0:11:17 > 0:11:21is people moving from England to Wales. That's the biggest factor.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25A very small percentage of our population comes from overseas.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27Around 5.5%.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29It has an effect in somewhere like Llanybydder.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32But in terms of employment,
0:11:32 > 0:11:36we have to remember that in an area like this, in education,
0:11:36 > 0:11:41the sector is worth £237 million to the economy
0:11:41 > 0:11:43and 9,000 jobs rely on it.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46We have a challenge for the future.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50But we have not yet provided for an influx of Roma.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52We have to make provision.
0:11:52 > 0:11:58There is a big difference between Romas, the gypsies, and Romanians.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00Within Romania itself,
0:12:00 > 0:12:05the Roma, the gypsies, are oppressed in Romania.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09- May I expand this argument? - Of course.
0:12:09 > 0:12:14I feel we are falling into the trap
0:12:14 > 0:12:17of defining the effects of immigration
0:12:17 > 0:12:19in the same way as the tabloids.
0:12:19 > 0:12:24I am just as concerned about the large companies and shops
0:12:24 > 0:12:28which are moving into our towns
0:12:28 > 0:12:33and are making every high street almost identical.
0:12:33 > 0:12:39That's taking money away from local businesses and communities.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43I do feel that a sign of a mature society
0:12:43 > 0:12:47is that we can discuss immigration in a wider context,
0:12:47 > 0:12:52rather than focusing on people from Romania, Bulgaria this year
0:12:52 > 0:12:54and perhaps other countries next year.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57Very quickly, going back to the politics,
0:12:57 > 0:13:00UKIP are driving this at the moment.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03- Will this be a big issue in the European election?- Without a doubt.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07But there's no evidence that this issue effects votes
0:13:07 > 0:13:12at a general election, when it comes to electing the UK Government.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15Driving across Wales,
0:13:15 > 0:13:18you'll see hundreds of chapels of all shapes and sizes.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21Some have seen better days.
0:13:21 > 0:13:25One of our most prominent broadcasters, Huw Edwards,
0:13:25 > 0:13:27has been campaigning to protect them.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31And another, Vaughan, has been to one of the chapels of his forefathers
0:13:31 > 0:13:33to contemplate the situation.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35CHORAL SINGING
0:13:38 > 0:13:40This is Groeswen Chapel,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43in the hills between Caerphilly and Cwm Taf.
0:13:43 > 0:13:48It can offer hope for the future for our most important chapels.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52I'm not the first member of my family
0:13:52 > 0:13:55to climb the stairs to this pulpit at Groeswen.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59My great-grandfather was a minister here for over 50 years.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02Here's the founder of the cause, William Edwards.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04The same man who built the old bridge in Pontypridd
0:14:04 > 0:14:08and designed the layout for Morriston in West Glamorgan.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11The building opened in 1742
0:14:11 > 0:14:15and this is where many of the Watford Session meetings took place
0:14:15 > 0:14:19where the Methodist fathers organised their new church.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23But, according to Huw Edwards, the history of nonconformity
0:14:23 > 0:14:28is being forgotten and important building are under threat.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31People should realise that we have lost hundreds of buildings
0:14:31 > 0:14:33since the 1960s.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36Unfortunately, buildings were being demolished
0:14:36 > 0:14:38without questions being asked.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40Even very valuable buildings,
0:14:40 > 0:14:43particularly in the South Wales valleys.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45This is a crisis
0:14:45 > 0:14:49and people should be asking questions of themselves
0:14:49 > 0:14:51and the authorities.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53Which buildings are worth keeping
0:14:53 > 0:14:56and what are we doing to protect those buildings?
0:14:56 > 0:15:01It's not just the buildings that are important at Groeswen.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04The cemetery is also notable.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06"The Westminster Abbey of Wales"
0:15:06 > 0:15:09was the way the Daily Telegraph described this place.
0:15:09 > 0:15:14It's full of literary figures. Ieuan Gwynedd, Caledfryn and others.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18What's amazing is that neither the chapel or the cemetery
0:15:18 > 0:15:21were listed until the end of the 1980s.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25Until then, there was no official acknowledgement
0:15:25 > 0:15:28of the site's historical importance.
0:15:28 > 0:15:32As a result of being listed, it has received support.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36Around £300,000 from different funds and agencies.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40There is support and advice available is the message.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43We are trying to protect chapels which have closed.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48We have six chapels at the moment which are historically important
0:15:48 > 0:15:51and architecturally important.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54Chapels like Bethania in Maesteg,
0:15:54 > 0:15:57which is the biggest chapel we've got,
0:15:57 > 0:16:00and in North Wales we have Peniel, Tremadog,
0:16:00 > 0:16:05Llwynrhydowen and The Old Meeting House in Trecynon.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09But after rescuing a building, we have to find a use for it.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15In one way, this chapel is fortunate because it still has a congregation.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18It's more difficult to protect a building
0:16:18 > 0:16:20where there are no worshippers.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24Isn't it time we realised that these buildings are part of our heritage
0:16:24 > 0:16:28and not just the responsibility of the members themselves?
0:16:32 > 0:16:36- You enjoyed that, didn't you? - A cold day in a cemetery?
0:16:36 > 0:16:38LAUGHTER
0:16:40 > 0:16:44Groeswen is a happy story and a model for chapels in Wales
0:16:44 > 0:16:48but not every chapel can claim that sort of support.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50The situation has improved.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53Huw referred to the situation in the '60s.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56The chapels lost at that time,
0:16:56 > 0:17:00it is incredible that nothing was done to protect them.
0:17:00 > 0:17:05There are grants available and these nonconformist buildings
0:17:05 > 0:17:09are now being considered as important as Anglican churches,
0:17:09 > 0:17:12which was not true at one time.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16But it's difficult if you have a small, elderly congregation,
0:17:16 > 0:17:20for them to know there is support available and how to obtain it.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Aled, you're not wearing your collar tonight.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27Whose responsibility is it? Just the members or everyone?
0:17:27 > 0:17:32To a degree the members, but I think historic buildings belong to us all.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34When I was working as a minister,
0:17:34 > 0:17:38I remember a time when we were repairing a building
0:17:38 > 0:17:42and we paid more in VAT than we received in grants.
0:17:42 > 0:17:47But the big thing I would say here is that it is a challenge for us
0:17:47 > 0:17:51as churches and chapels to provide services in new communities.
0:17:51 > 0:17:56People expect provision in hospitals and places of work.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59We often can't do that effectively
0:17:59 > 0:18:02because we pay costs on buildings no-one attends.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05Are the bricks being given too much attention, Bethan Jones Parry?
0:18:05 > 0:18:09- Are...?- Are the buildings getting too much attention?
0:18:09 > 0:18:13Not too much attention, but that may be the heart of the problem.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17The reason they don't get much attention,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20the ones which deserve it, is because often
0:18:20 > 0:18:23there are villages were a chapel has been built
0:18:23 > 0:18:26because there was a dispute with another chapel.
0:18:26 > 0:18:31But do we really appreciate nonconformity specifically
0:18:31 > 0:18:34within the historic curriculum?
0:18:34 > 0:18:40When Huw Edwards was campaigning on this before Christmas
0:18:40 > 0:18:43he referred to that.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45That's true.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48I'm reading Kenneth Morgan's book
0:18:48 > 0:18:52on politics from 1868 until 1922
0:18:52 > 0:18:56and he emphasises the contribution of nonconformity
0:18:56 > 0:19:01to the development of politics, journalism and so on.
0:19:01 > 0:19:05If we appreciated that, maybe we'd appreciate the bricks more.
0:19:05 > 0:19:07That's certainly true.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10William Edwards, who I mentioned in the report,
0:19:10 > 0:19:14he devised the first national insurance policy
0:19:14 > 0:19:16anywhere in the world.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20There's a picture of him on the wall of the Hermitage in Leningrad.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23No-one in Wales, outside south-east Wales,
0:19:23 > 0:19:24knows who he was.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28Isn't the other problem that these chapels are empty
0:19:28 > 0:19:31almost every Sunday?
0:19:31 > 0:19:34If they were full, the money would pile up.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37Isn't that the problem?
0:19:37 > 0:19:39I would like to declare an interest.
0:19:39 > 0:19:44I did studied to join the ministry before becoming a journalist.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46I also speak as an historian.
0:19:46 > 0:19:51In both those senses, I want to see the contribution of nonconformity
0:19:51 > 0:19:53being acknowledged.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55But nonconformity today,
0:19:55 > 0:20:00it's in a deeper crisis than just the condition of buildings.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04J.R. Jones said in the '60s, it's about a lack of meaning.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08The reason people don't attend these places
0:20:08 > 0:20:11is that they don't know what they stand for -
0:20:11 > 0:20:12what their message is.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15We've had a statement from the Welsh government.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18The Welsh government will contribute over £350,000
0:20:18 > 0:20:22to protect historic places of worship this year.
0:20:22 > 0:20:27Money is short. We heard about more cuts on Newyddion Naw.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Do we need to see cuts here as well?
0:20:31 > 0:20:35It's important we have grants to maintain these buildings
0:20:35 > 0:20:38but we need to be more creative with planning laws.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42We can use these buildings for community purposes.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46There's significant growth, and churches are responsible,
0:20:46 > 0:20:49in the principles of Welsh radicalism.
0:20:49 > 0:20:50Things like food banks.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53We associate ourselves with credit banks.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56We work with the poor in a new way.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59That's a new step but we need buildings to achieve these things.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03- It's not easy. - May I talk about being creative?
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Yes, Bethan.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08I agree with Aled.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12I live in Pencaenewydd, just down the road from the chapel
0:21:12 > 0:21:15in which David Lloyd George got married.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17That has now been transformed
0:21:17 > 0:21:22and there are circuit training classes there.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25It has become the heart of the community but in a different way.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27Worshipers have returned.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31I think we need to be more flexible to pay for the bricks.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34And there are some business minds running Groeswen.
0:21:34 > 0:21:38There are some clever people. That's what is interesting.
0:21:38 > 0:21:43They have a membership but every chapel also has friends.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46Business people with a family connection, perhaps.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Very often, the solution is to find those people.
0:21:50 > 0:21:55Councillors and so on who are able to help without having to attend.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57Thank you.
0:21:57 > 0:22:02This week we heard that a Labour Party stalwart
0:22:02 > 0:22:06at Westminster, Ann Clwyd, will not stand in the next General Election.
0:22:06 > 0:22:11One of our guests tonight used to work for her. You can guess who.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13One of his first jobs
0:22:13 > 0:22:16after a decade of living on the streets as an alcoholic.
0:22:16 > 0:22:20A story we heard in the recent S4C programme, Gadael Y Gwter.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23Why did you take the risk?
0:22:23 > 0:22:25I didn't know you.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30You wrote to me and I thought it was such a good letter
0:22:30 > 0:22:34I had an interest in meeting whoever wrote it.
0:22:34 > 0:22:39I thought you had a troubled past
0:22:39 > 0:22:43and that you had suffered a lot.
0:22:43 > 0:22:48You had done some foolish things, like everyone else.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51I thought it was worth meeting you.
0:22:51 > 0:22:56After meeting you, I thought, this man can talk,
0:22:56 > 0:22:59I'm sure he can also take action.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02And she took the risk, John.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05We heard this week that she's leaving.
0:23:05 > 0:23:09- Well, she'll go to the House of Lords, won't she?- I'm not sure.
0:23:09 > 0:23:13But the work will continue.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16The work she has taken an interest in,
0:23:16 > 0:23:20from the Cynon Valley, such as compensation for the miners,
0:23:20 > 0:23:24keeping the Tower Colliery and reopening it
0:23:24 > 0:23:27and then going to Indonesia and Iraq.
0:23:27 > 0:23:32She has campaigned on many fronts.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36The two words I would use to describe her political contribution
0:23:36 > 0:23:39are perseverance and determination.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42This is a woman who was sacked by Neil Kinnock twice
0:23:42 > 0:23:45as leader of the Labour Party and she was sacked by Tony Blair.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48As someone who worked for her,
0:23:48 > 0:23:52she was a rebel but she was very close to Tony Blair.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54She fought for him.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58There was a combination of a rebel and someone very loyal.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02Naturally, as Chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party,
0:24:02 > 0:24:06you would expect her to have a close relationship
0:24:06 > 0:24:08with the Prime Minister.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12As Chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party,
0:24:12 > 0:24:15she would meet the Prime Minister once a week.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18But, fundamentally, what was important to her
0:24:18 > 0:24:20and what will remain important to her
0:24:20 > 0:24:24after leaving the House of Commons is the Cynon Valley electorate
0:24:24 > 0:24:29and the various issues, like Iraq and Indonesia - human rights.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32If I may give a quick plug,
0:24:32 > 0:24:37I think a sign of things to come is that she's at Bangor University
0:24:37 > 0:24:41giving a lecture on human rights on February 16th.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44And she's not the only one stepping down.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47There's a raft of people.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50Yes, but the most surprising fact is that Ann Clwyd was the fourth
0:24:50 > 0:24:52woman to reach Westminster.
0:24:52 > 0:24:5730 years later, only 12 female MPs have represented Wales
0:24:57 > 0:24:59at the House of Commons.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02She will be disappointed with that. She expected more to follow her.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07A subject for another day. Thank you.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10And that's it for tonight.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13We'll be back at the same time next week.
0:25:13 > 0:25:17From Vaughan and I and our guests tonight, good night.