0:00:02 > 0:00:06Welcome back. Is it right that seven of our councils' chief executives
0:00:06 > 0:00:08earn more than the First Minister?
0:00:08 > 0:00:11Public sector bosses' wages tonight on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:20 > 0:00:21Yes, it's a wild night.
0:00:21 > 0:00:25A chance to stay indoors in front of the box and join in the debate.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28That is, if you have electricity, of course.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32Shortly, a quiz on the public sector wages for the locals in Caernarfon.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35To be fair, maybe people don't think so,
0:00:35 > 0:00:39but David Cameron is meant to be running the entire country.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42And he doesn't get as much as you'd expect.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46That and more about the problems facing the Welsh Conservatives,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49plenty to discuss, with Vaughan and our guests - Bethan Jenkins,
0:00:49 > 0:00:52the Plaid Cymru AM for South West Wales,
0:00:52 > 0:00:56and John Davies, councillor and former Pembroke Council leader.
0:00:56 > 0:01:01Thank you for joining us. But we must start with the weather
0:01:01 > 0:01:04and the response from politicians to the crisis.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08There's no shortage of politicians in wellies in those areas
0:01:08 > 0:01:11hit by the storms and floods.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13But members in Cardiff Bay
0:01:13 > 0:01:18and also in Westminster are facing tough questions over how to
0:01:18 > 0:01:22deal with the crisis in the long term and short term.
0:01:22 > 0:01:27Vaughan, David Cameron has said that money is no object.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29How much will he throw at this? Do we know?
0:01:29 > 0:01:33Well, we don't know yet, but in truth, David Cameron has been
0:01:33 > 0:01:38trying to catch up after appearing to be a little slow in responding.
0:01:38 > 0:01:42But such situations are very difficult for politicians.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46If you get out there in your wellies, people call it
0:01:46 > 0:01:50a photo op, taking advantage, but if you don't, you're also criticised.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52I was listening to PM's Questions
0:01:52 > 0:01:56and I remembered a quote from Yes, Minister.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00Jim Hacker saying, "This is too serious a situation to score
0:02:00 > 0:02:04"political points, but I notice the opposition are doing exactly that."
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Whatever a politician does in a situation like this,
0:02:07 > 0:02:10someone is going to criticise.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14Have we seen enough Welsh politicians, John Davies?
0:02:14 > 0:02:18We've seen Westminster politicians in their wellies this week,
0:02:18 > 0:02:21maybe not last week, maybe they were a little slow,
0:02:21 > 0:02:26but have we seen enough Welsh politicians?
0:02:26 > 0:02:30It is difficult for politicians to get the balance right,
0:02:30 > 0:02:36to show concern and also to show political interest.
0:02:36 > 0:02:42The situation in Wales has been a little different to the
0:02:42 > 0:02:44situation in England,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47but it can benefit politicians to come to the fore in extreme
0:02:47 > 0:02:51situations, but it can also cause problems if they do not act.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Our politicians in Wales have a duty to act effectively,
0:02:54 > 0:02:58as far as finding that portion of the financial cake,
0:02:58 > 0:03:01the extra finance that has been given to communities in England.
0:03:01 > 0:03:06It's needed in communities across Wales, especially the West Coast.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09I've travelled from the eye of the storm this afternoon and it
0:03:09 > 0:03:14has been very difficult because you see the damage, you can touch it.
0:03:14 > 0:03:18So Cardiff Bay politicians need to get out there and touch it,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21see it, and provide political comfort, that the
0:03:21 > 0:03:25resources are there to meet our communities' needs.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29Bethan, both of them are saying it is difficult for people like you.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32Is it hard to assess the sensitivity in such situations?
0:03:32 > 0:03:37I think it is important that politicians in their own
0:03:37 > 0:03:40areas show that they will provide local support
0:03:40 > 0:03:44and we've seen today that Cameron has said that businesses
0:03:44 > 0:03:51in areas that have been hit will not have to pay business rate relief.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56We don't yet know if that will be something that will affect Wales and
0:03:56 > 0:04:02it's important for us to understand what is coming from Westminster.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06As far as the Welsh Government, I think
0:04:06 > 0:04:11we have seen what the Government intends to do, but we don't
0:04:11 > 0:04:17fully know if the councils or the Welsh Government will be paying.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20It's only this week that it seems there's been
0:04:20 > 0:04:24an application for European money through Westminster.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27Well, the application had to go through Westminster.
0:04:27 > 0:04:33- Could it have gone sooner?- The Welsh Government could not apply directly.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38That fund has to be assessed by the Government.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41What is interesting, I think,
0:04:41 > 0:04:44is that Cameron promises to spend all this money,
0:04:44 > 0:04:49it's hard to believe that money will be fed through the Barnett Formula,
0:04:49 > 0:04:54with Wales receiving around 5% of whatever is spent in England.
0:04:54 > 0:04:59But it would also be very strange if Wales did not receive anything
0:04:59 > 0:05:01because there has been damage.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06So I would suggest it is a matter for Carwyn Jones to have to
0:05:06 > 0:05:08make friends, for once, with David Jones
0:05:08 > 0:05:12and hold talks to see what is reasonable for Wales to receive.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15Because the councils can't afford much.
0:05:15 > 0:05:21No, their backs are against the wall right now, as we know.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24But the fact is, Vaughan is right,
0:05:24 > 0:05:28we need to set political differences aside because we have a duty,
0:05:28 > 0:05:32the politicians have a duty, to the people in a crisis
0:05:32 > 0:05:35and wherever you live, right across Wales,
0:05:35 > 0:05:38there are people worried tonight about insurance and also
0:05:38 > 0:05:43about their property because it has been an extreme situation.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47So extreme actions are now required from politicians in Cardiff
0:05:47 > 0:05:49and Westminster.
0:05:49 > 0:05:54Is there more leadership coming from Westminster in England
0:05:54 > 0:05:59than has been coming from Cardiff and the ministers in the Bay?
0:05:59 > 0:06:02- Do you think there is more oomph in Westminster?- Well, no.
0:06:02 > 0:06:06I think I'm quite cynical because over the past few days,
0:06:06 > 0:06:10we've seen that the stockbroker belt is now being affected by the flood.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13In the north of England,
0:06:13 > 0:06:18maybe Cameron has not said that there is money available.
0:06:18 > 0:06:24But yes, I agree, this is too big for scoring political points.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26At the end of the day,
0:06:26 > 0:06:31people's lives are being affected by the floods, people's homes are
0:06:31 > 0:06:37being destroyed, and we have to put money in place to help them,
0:06:37 > 0:06:39instead of playing games.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42But this can define a leadership, a crisis like this -
0:06:42 > 0:06:47foot and mouth disease, or whatever, Gordon Brown has learned,
0:06:47 > 0:06:50David Cameron has learned in the past, in 2007.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53You have to get it right.
0:06:53 > 0:06:57If you remember with Gordon Brown and Cameron,
0:06:57 > 0:07:02the mistake from Cameron was to visit Uganda during a flood,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05while Gordon Brown was out at sea.
0:07:05 > 0:07:10And that benefited Gordon Brown and damaged Cameron.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13As I said, there was
0:07:13 > 0:07:17at least an appearance that Cameron was slow to respond and then this
0:07:17 > 0:07:23strange row between Owen Paterson and Chris Smith and Eric Pickles.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26It all looked a bit of a shambles.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30And so, Cameron has had to step in.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34If he steps in and sorts it out and does so effectively,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38it could benefit him, but he hasn't had a good war, as they say, so far.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41Maybe Assembly Members are more mature?
0:07:41 > 0:07:43Well, I would never say that, especially after
0:07:43 > 0:07:47some of the actions within the Conservative group this evening.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49But we'll come to that later.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52No, the situation is a little difference.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56In Westminster, they are approaching a general election.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59Miliband and Cameron see everything through that prism.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03Here, there are over two years to go until the next election.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06UKIP are out and about too, European elections.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09Mr Farage is out in his wellies, too.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11Thank you for now.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14Another topic - the wages of the leaders of councils
0:08:14 > 0:08:15and public bodies.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19The Assembly's Public Accounts Committee is about to launch
0:08:19 > 0:08:21an inquiry which will consider
0:08:21 > 0:08:25whether the process of setting wages is open.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Before we discuss that, we can find out what the
0:08:28 > 0:08:33people of Caernarfon thought. Janet Ebenezer had a quiz for them.
0:08:33 > 0:08:37Tomorrow, a committee of AMs start on an inquiry into the wages
0:08:37 > 0:08:38of managers in the public sector.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42They will gather evidence from a number of bodies, such
0:08:42 > 0:08:48as the Wales Audit Office and the Welsh Local Government Association.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51But I've come to Caernarfon to find out what people here
0:08:51 > 0:08:56think about the matter and I have a challenge for them.
0:08:56 > 0:08:57So, come on.
0:09:11 > 0:09:17I'm asking people to guess the wages of these public sector managers.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19So, go for it.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22The First Minister, Carwyn Jones.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34You haven't got many right, unfortunately.
0:09:34 > 0:09:40But Carwyn Jones, he earns £135,000 a year, so that is wrong.
0:09:40 > 0:09:47The North Wales Chief Constable earns £137,000, so you were close.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Headteachers in Gwynedd, £60,000 - £74,000.
0:09:51 > 0:09:53You were right to begin with.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55David Cameron, he earns £142,500 a year.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59To be fair, maybe people don't think so,
0:09:59 > 0:10:04but David Cameron is meant to be running the entire country.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08And he doesn't get as much as you would expect, to be honest.
0:10:12 > 0:10:17These are the wages. Guess who earns which amount.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29The First Minister, Carwyn Jones.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31Too much.
0:10:40 > 0:10:44- Do you fancy a challenge? - Well, why not?
0:11:01 > 0:11:04I can reveal you haven't done that well.
0:11:04 > 0:11:09David Cameron doesn't earn as much as that. He earns £142,500 a year.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12But he gets a house.
0:11:12 > 0:11:14- Is that a surprise? - The house is included.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18- There are benefits. - And a holiday home.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22The Director of BBC Wales earns more - £160,000.
0:11:22 > 0:11:27- The Chief Executive of Gwynedd Council earns £108,000.- OK.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31And then, the Welsh Language Commissioner, £95,000.
0:11:31 > 0:11:36And then the Chief Executive of S4C earns a little more,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38£144,000 a year.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40- Do you think that those wages are fair?- No.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43I still think there are
0:11:43 > 0:11:48so many people at the bottom of the ladder who don't get the money.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52It's not fair when you share it out between everyone.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59So, my work is done today.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02The people in Caernarfon have mixed views.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04Almost as mixed as these wages.
0:12:08 > 0:12:09Janet in Caernarfon.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12John Davies, Carwyn Jones raised an interesting point this
0:12:12 > 0:12:14week in the Senedd.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17Why does the Chief Executive of Pembrokeshire Council earn
0:12:17 > 0:12:19more than him?
0:12:19 > 0:12:23To begin with, I don't think that is a comparison we should be
0:12:23 > 0:12:27making because one is a politician and the other is a civil servant.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30That's the first point. Not that it justifies the figures,
0:12:30 > 0:12:37but there are comparisons being made between apples and bananas.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41Once you are elected, the wages fall?
0:12:41 > 0:12:43Well, as far as civil servants, it is
0:12:43 > 0:12:48interesting because you have a wide range of figures for local
0:12:48 > 0:12:52government, the health service, the police, the fire service,
0:12:52 > 0:12:54and that's just in Wales.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58So maybe we need to unify those steps that relate to the past.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01So who does the tough homework in a council?
0:13:01 > 0:13:04- The chief executive or the leader? - It's a combination of the two.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07There is action and political action.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11- They are two different things. - Were you bitter at receiving less...?
0:13:11 > 0:13:15- It was £40,000, I think.- So less than a quarter of what he received.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17No, everyone has a different role.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21It wasn't a matter of being bitter. It was a matter of fact.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24And that is what you're going in for, public service.
0:13:24 > 0:13:29The professional side of the business is a little different.
0:13:29 > 0:13:35- Do we need to pay politicians more, Bethan?- Not at the moment.
0:13:35 > 0:13:42People are losing their jobs, people can't get jobs, in our towns.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46I wouldn't see it as right for politicians to get more
0:13:46 > 0:13:49and I don't think Carwyn Jones should be making a political
0:13:49 > 0:13:52point about it because time after time in the Assembly,
0:13:52 > 0:13:57we hear politicians saying, "It's not our decision.
0:13:57 > 0:14:02"It is up to local authorities to decide on pay." I think
0:14:02 > 0:14:05now we are seeing a change in the Government's opinion,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08maybe because of the consultation taking place, or maybe
0:14:08 > 0:14:11because more people see there is a problem.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15But isn't it an odd situation that the chief executive of a health
0:14:15 > 0:14:18board is paid much more than David Cameron?
0:14:18 > 0:14:23Well, what is even stranger, I think,
0:14:23 > 0:14:28is that the scales of these high wages in Wales tend to be similar to
0:14:28 > 0:14:34those the other side of the border, but Wales is a much poorer country.
0:14:34 > 0:14:39Compare the average for the Chief Executive of Gwynedd Council
0:14:39 > 0:14:43with the average wage in Gwynedd.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47And then compare the average of say the Chief Executive
0:14:47 > 0:14:51of Westminster and the average wage in Westminster.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53So the question I'm asking is -
0:14:53 > 0:14:56should we be looking more at the inequality within Wales,
0:14:56 > 0:15:01rather than the inequality between different jobs at that level,
0:15:01 > 0:15:08and ask - in general, are they earning too much?
0:15:08 > 0:15:11Yes, but wouldn't there be protests?
0:15:11 > 0:15:15Why should a chief executive in Wales earn much less than a chief
0:15:15 > 0:15:18executive in England?
0:15:18 > 0:15:21I don't think there is any evidence...
0:15:21 > 0:15:25This is how I see it, I don't see that there is any
0:15:25 > 0:15:30shortage of people or talent trying for these jobs.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33And it is the same in politics.
0:15:33 > 0:15:38If people say, "We don't pay our politicians enough,"
0:15:38 > 0:15:41why are all these people standing and are keen to be AMs or MPs?
0:15:41 > 0:15:44As far as I see it, maybe John disagrees,
0:15:44 > 0:15:48I do not see a problem with talent in Wales.
0:15:48 > 0:15:53It is easy to say that, Vaughan, but there is a danger that Wales becomes
0:15:53 > 0:15:56isolated because it is one market,
0:15:56 > 0:16:01as far as finding the source of this talent. These councils employ...
0:16:01 > 0:16:06Cardiff employs 15,000 people and more.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09It deals with an annual budget of half a billion.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12There is a lot of responsibility. It is a huge job.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15John, we have seen, in local government, situations where the
0:16:15 > 0:16:21wages of ordinary employees have effectively been frozen for years.
0:16:21 > 0:16:26And yet, the top officials, who say they are restructuring,
0:16:26 > 0:16:30changing responsibilities, their wages have been increasing.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32That does not help local government
0:16:32 > 0:16:37because it kills the morale of the other employees.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39I accept that.
0:16:39 > 0:16:45There is a space that has been created through historical reasons.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47There is an opportunity now,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50through restructuring through the Williams Commission,
0:16:50 > 0:16:53to look at that and I would welcome the establishment
0:16:53 > 0:16:55of a commission to decide, as you have with councillors,
0:16:55 > 0:16:57and maybe that is the answer,
0:16:57 > 0:17:01an independent panel looking at wages across the public sector.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04And then they make recommendations and politicians say,
0:17:04 > 0:17:07"No, we'd better not!" Bethan, that's what happened in Westminster.
0:17:07 > 0:17:11Well, on a Welsh level, I think that it is different.
0:17:11 > 0:17:15We are open about politicians' wages.
0:17:15 > 0:17:20But returning to Vaughan's point. I think that is important.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24At the moment, councils are cutting budgets, but the leaders refuse
0:17:24 > 0:17:28to look at pay, cutting jobs at the top, cutting things like mayors.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33They want to keep their own jobs, but are prepared to cut wages
0:17:33 > 0:17:37and the things that are important for people lower down.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41- And that is not acceptable. - Right, thank you for now.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45We have to discuss a breaking story.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48We heard Vaughan mention the Welsh Conservatives.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52The news has broken that Andrew RT Davies,
0:17:52 > 0:17:57captain of the Tory team in the Assembly, has reshuffled his cabinet.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01He had a small squad, but there are now
0:18:01 > 0:18:07four on the backbenches for defying Mr Davies in a vote on taxes.
0:18:07 > 0:18:12So, they are out, Vaughan. What is really going on?
0:18:12 > 0:18:17Well, I think what we have going on here is a battle for the heart
0:18:17 > 0:18:21and soul of the Welsh Conservative Party, as far as devolution.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24The irony tonight is that we're in a situation where
0:18:24 > 0:18:25Andrew RT Davies,
0:18:25 > 0:18:29the man who won he leadership as the candidate everyone thought
0:18:29 > 0:18:34was the British candidate, the one with doubts over devolution,
0:18:34 > 0:18:39fighting for more powers than the UK Government,
0:18:39 > 0:18:42the Government of which his party's leader, David Cameron,
0:18:42 > 0:18:45is in charge of, is willing to give Wales.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48Four members, including the man who stood against him
0:18:48 > 0:18:50for the leadership,
0:18:50 > 0:18:54the one people maybe considered as more nationalistic, opposing that.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58They are on the outside. Andrew RT Davies is on the inside.
0:18:58 > 0:19:03But I would suggest that his grip on the leadership is slipping.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07He now has political enemies on the backbenches,
0:19:07 > 0:19:11he has an enemy in the Welsh Office, there is no doubt about that,
0:19:11 > 0:19:16and other enemies in Westminster.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20So, they have landed in an unfortunate situation,
0:19:20 > 0:19:27to say the least, and I can't see how this one will work out.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29Bethan, you work with the four.
0:19:29 > 0:19:34We've tried contacting them, they're not speaking to the media tonight.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37We have one quote from Antoinette Sandbach, "It is very
0:19:37 > 0:19:41"unfortunate that Andrew RT Davies has chosen to divide the party."
0:19:41 > 0:19:42That speaks volumes.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45When someone says something like that from the backbenches...
0:19:45 > 0:19:47What are they saying to you tonight, Bethan?
0:19:47 > 0:19:52Well, I've just seen on Twitter that Nick Ramsay is on the train
0:19:52 > 0:19:57with Mick Antoniw, on their way to a committee meeting in Brussels.
0:19:57 > 0:20:02We understand he has lost the job of chairing that committee.
0:20:02 > 0:20:07And so this is all happening in public
0:20:07 > 0:20:11and it shows that there is no unity within the group and I think maybe I
0:20:11 > 0:20:16am more cynical than Vaughan, maybe it is more to do with personalities.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20There is not much love between Andrew RT Davies and people like
0:20:20 > 0:20:24Nick Ramsay and Janet Finch-Saunders and maybe it's as simple as that.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27He's just thrown his doll out of the pram.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31The Conservatives are not here this evening to argue their corner.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33We have invited them, no-one was available.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36But strong leadership, they ignored the whip,
0:20:36 > 0:20:40he told them to vote one way, they didn't, so out they go.
0:20:40 > 0:20:41That's fair, isn't it?
0:20:41 > 0:20:46Strong leadership is one thing, you need sensitive leadership too,
0:20:46 > 0:20:48when you have so few in the family,
0:20:48 > 0:20:52and I think the Welsh storm may have ended, as far as the weather,
0:20:52 > 0:20:56but this political storm is just beginning and will be with us
0:20:56 > 0:20:58for some time.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00- Yes, it will be, won't it, Vaughan?- Yes.
0:21:00 > 0:21:05The problem you have is - will he last until the election
0:21:05 > 0:21:08and if it does not, who could take his place?
0:21:08 > 0:21:11- There are some prominent names. - Are you burying him already?
0:21:11 > 0:21:15No, I'm not burying him. Not by a long way.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19He could re-establish himself, but I think it will be tough.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22But looking around, who else could lead the group?
0:21:22 > 0:21:26It doesn't seem to me that it would be easy for one of the four,
0:21:26 > 0:21:30in particular Nick Ramsay, to come back in, so who else is there?
0:21:30 > 0:21:33Paul Davies maybe, Angela Burns maybe. Who knows?
0:21:33 > 0:21:37And this is all about the devolution of income tax.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40It may not be causing problems for your party,
0:21:40 > 0:21:43- but there are splits in a number of parties.- Yes.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46I think we need to show unity within the Assembly
0:21:46 > 0:21:50and be involved in talks with Westminster,
0:21:50 > 0:21:55especially regarding how the shape of Britain will change
0:21:55 > 0:21:59whether Scotland gains independence or not.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03And so it is unfortunate that this has led to Andrew RT Davies
0:22:03 > 0:22:06making a decision.
0:22:06 > 0:22:10I think it's important he keeps the group together.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14He now has enemies outside the shadow cabinet
0:22:14 > 0:22:19and that is something he should have done today.
0:22:19 > 0:22:24John, as far as this problem regarding income tax,
0:22:24 > 0:22:27are you in favour of devolution?
0:22:27 > 0:22:32I think you mentioned it has split the Conservatives.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36That has been the case with Labour, too.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39It is not an easy matter with which to deal.
0:22:39 > 0:22:44We may discuss that another night. Thank you for your company tonight.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48That's the end for tonight. Join us again next Wednesday.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52Until then, from all of us here, good night.