0:00:00 > 0:00:01Welcome back.
0:00:01 > 0:00:06The international community was reminded of the 80s and the Cold War this week
0:00:06 > 0:00:10The latest from the Ukraine and a history lesson tonight, on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:20 > 0:00:25We will consider how close Russia and the Ukraine came to war this week.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27The situation remains very fragile, of course.
0:00:27 > 0:00:32And one of our most prominent historians will explain how the place names around us
0:00:32 > 0:00:36provide clues about the Ukraine's turbulent history.
0:00:36 > 0:00:43There have been close links between us and that part of the world across the centuries.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46But first, let me introduce tonight's guests.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48Vaughan Roderick is here as usual, of course.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51We're also joined in the studio by Professor Gwynedd Parry,
0:00:51 > 0:00:53who is a lecturer in law at Swansea University.
0:00:53 > 0:00:57And Elin Jones, the Plaid Cymru AM for Ceredigion.
0:00:57 > 0:01:02And the Labour MP, Nia Griffith, joins us from our Westminster studio.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04A warm welcome to you all.
0:01:04 > 0:01:09But first, to the crisis that the UK Foreign Secretary, William Hague,
0:01:09 > 0:01:13has described as the most serious in Europe during the 21st century.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17Russia has increased its influence significantly in the Crimea region,
0:01:17 > 0:01:19which is part of the Ukraine.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23At times during the last few days, it looked as though the tensions
0:01:23 > 0:01:26between the two countries could turn into military confrontation.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29Some say that could lead to disastrous consequences.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33As we saw on Newyddion Naw earlier, our correspondent, Iolo ap Dafydd,
0:01:33 > 0:01:36is in eastern Ukraine this evening in the city of Kharkiv.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38Good evening, Iolo.
0:01:38 > 0:01:39Good evening.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43The starting point of this crisis began some time ago.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45How have we reached this point?
0:01:47 > 0:01:51First of all, the fact that Russia's soldiers
0:01:51 > 0:01:54have moved into the Crimea region.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56They now control that area.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58This isn't a small piece of land.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01It's larger than Wales.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04It's in the southern part of the Ukraine
0:02:04 > 0:02:08and of course there are important ports there for Russia's navy
0:02:08 > 0:02:12and there are special military sites there.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16But the history of the Crimea and its links to Russia and the Ukraine
0:02:16 > 0:02:17goes back much further.
0:02:17 > 0:02:23Different people have lived on the Crimea for centuries
0:02:23 > 0:02:27and one group of people we don't hear much about these days
0:02:27 > 0:02:29are the Tatar people.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33They have been quiet because of the obvious confrontation
0:02:33 > 0:02:35between the Ukrainians and the Russians.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39There are other groups of people like Jews and Greeks
0:02:39 > 0:02:41who have been living in that part of the world.
0:02:41 > 0:02:47Interestingly, the Crimea region has only belonged to the Ukraine since 1954.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51That's why most of the Russian speaking people
0:02:51 > 0:02:54feel that the Crimea belongs to Russia.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58And there are people in eastern Ukraine who also feel
0:02:58 > 0:03:02that it belongs to the people who speak Russian
0:03:02 > 0:03:04more than it does to the people who speak Ukrainian.
0:03:04 > 0:03:08There was an emphasis on the diplomatic side in Paris today
0:03:08 > 0:03:10and that is likely to continue.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12Is there a feeling in the Ukraine tonight that the worst,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16with regard to the violence at least, is over?
0:03:16 > 0:03:20I think these diplomatic discussions have increased
0:03:20 > 0:03:22during the last few days.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25A lot of people had been waiting to hear
0:03:25 > 0:03:29what President Putin had to say in Moscow yesterday.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32The fact that he said he didn't feel there was a danger,
0:03:32 > 0:03:35with his soldiers controlling the Crimea of course,
0:03:35 > 0:03:37he doesn't feel there is a danger now.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41The concern was that there would be a threat that Russia's soldiers
0:03:41 > 0:03:44would enter eastern Ukraine.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47That was certainly a big concern in Kiev yesterday.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50The people here don't see it the same way.
0:03:50 > 0:03:56There have been several protests and marches in these cities.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00Around 70% of them consider Russian to be their first language
0:04:00 > 0:04:03and they feel they have family connections and friends
0:04:03 > 0:04:08on the Russian border, which is only about 20 miles away from here.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12They don't see the Russians as an army and soldiers that are taking control.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15They see them as friends who are protecting the interests
0:04:15 > 0:04:17of the people who speak Russian.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20But with regard to diplomacy, there have been discussions
0:04:20 > 0:04:23in several capital cities across Europe.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27What is ironic is that the people here say,
0:04:27 > 0:04:33"They're not listening to us. They're not listening to our concerns."
0:04:33 > 0:04:38They don't feel that they're part of this democratic process either.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41A lot of them believe that the temporary government
0:04:41 > 0:04:44in the Ukraine, in Kiev, is an illegal government.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47How concerned are people in the Ukraine this evening?
0:04:47 > 0:04:52The economy is weak and it's unclear how much of an influence Russia will have in the future.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55Are they worried?
0:04:55 > 0:05:00What's incredible is how much the Ukrainian economy,
0:05:00 > 0:05:05not only in the east but across this huge country,
0:05:05 > 0:05:09depends on the gas that comes from Russia.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12The company that sells that gas is Gazprom.
0:05:12 > 0:05:18At the beginning of this crisis, over three months ago now,
0:05:18 > 0:05:25when President Yanukovych, who did win the majority of the votes in 2010, we have to remember that,
0:05:25 > 0:05:29that's why people here think he should be the president,
0:05:29 > 0:05:32at least until the next election,
0:05:32 > 0:05:34and they are so dependant on that gas.
0:05:34 > 0:05:39Now, that cheap gas has disappeared and all this political uncertainty
0:05:39 > 0:05:42and all the disruption there has been in the main cities
0:05:42 > 0:05:45have obviously affected the economy.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48Wages are low here. Living costs are increasing.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50The price of food is increasing.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Prices have increased since I first arrived here a few days ago.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56It is putting pressure on Ukraine's economy,
0:05:56 > 0:05:58it's putting pressure on the people,
0:05:58 > 0:06:00and people are certainly concerned about that.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02Iolo, thank you very much.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07The Foreign Secretary has said this is the worst crisis
0:06:07 > 0:06:08in the 21st century.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11It's being compared to the Cold War.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Is that a fair comparison? Is it a similar situation?
0:06:14 > 0:06:17I don't think it's fair to compare it to the Cold War.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21But if we look at what Putin was trying to do
0:06:21 > 0:06:23at the start of this crisis,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26what he was trying to do was to create a block
0:06:26 > 0:06:28that was larger than Russia.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31Not a block as large as the Soviet Union had,
0:06:31 > 0:06:36but one which would include the Ukraine, Armenia and a few other countries.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40It's obvious to me, from what has happened over the last few days,
0:06:40 > 0:06:44that that dream is now over.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47In that sense, Putin has lost.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51Even if he managed to occupy and keep Crimea
0:06:51 > 0:06:53and maybe other regions of the Ukraine,
0:06:53 > 0:06:59the idea that the whole of the Ukraine would come under Russian influence
0:06:59 > 0:07:02and a member of this new block, has more or less disappeared
0:07:02 > 0:07:07because of the response in the east to what Russia has done
0:07:07 > 0:07:11and the response of the international community.
0:07:11 > 0:07:17So it seems to me that Putin has made a mistake
0:07:17 > 0:07:20and that at the moment, things are moving towards a direction
0:07:20 > 0:07:24that countries in the West would approve of.
0:07:24 > 0:07:25Nia Griffith in Westminster,
0:07:25 > 0:07:28during today's Prime Minister's questions,
0:07:28 > 0:07:33David Cameron and the leader of the opposition, Ed Miliband,
0:07:33 > 0:07:35were singing from the same hymn sheet
0:07:35 > 0:07:39and said economic and political sanctions would follow
0:07:39 > 0:07:41as a result of Russia's attitude.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43Do we in this country have to be careful,
0:07:43 > 0:07:48considering how dependent we are in Britain on gas from Russia?
0:07:48 > 0:07:52What's important is that we are sensitive to what's going on.
0:07:52 > 0:07:58We have to create enough confidence so that we can have a discussion
0:07:58 > 0:08:00between Russia and the Ukraine.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03It's important to give Russia a message
0:08:03 > 0:08:09Even if the Ukraine wants to improve its links with Europe,
0:08:09 > 0:08:14the door is open to keep its connections with Russia as well.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19Although they of course condemn what Russia is doing now
0:08:19 > 0:08:23and the soldiers that have entered the country,
0:08:23 > 0:08:29the fact is, the government in Kiev has give Russian speakers the confidence
0:08:29 > 0:08:34that it is going to respect people who speak Russian.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38What we need now is confidence and we need to calm the situation down
0:08:38 > 0:08:43and create an opportunity for them to go forwards towards the elections,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46as they have decided to do.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48As someone who deals with the law,
0:08:48 > 0:08:50when it comes to an international dispute,
0:08:50 > 0:08:54it's often difficult to know who's right and who's wrong, isn't it?
0:08:54 > 0:08:57Yes and the situation has deteriorated over the last few years
0:08:57 > 0:09:00because all of the military intervention that has taken place
0:09:00 > 0:09:02in different countries.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05The UN charter has become very complicated.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08We're not even sure what the meaning of sovereignty is any more.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10What is territorial integrity?
0:09:10 > 0:09:13What is the right to self-government?
0:09:13 > 0:09:18These things have almost been redefined as a result of Kosovo,
0:09:18 > 0:09:22Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25So we are living in a very different world.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28And, of course, that's what Russia has done during the last week.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31It has thrown some of the West's rhetoric back at the West,
0:09:31 > 0:09:35when it comes to justifying military intervention around the world.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39It's very interesting how that has been thrown back.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43And of course, we know that the international situation
0:09:43 > 0:09:46is very complicated because of all these developments.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50And to expand on that, President Putin often thinks
0:09:50 > 0:09:52the West is lying to him.
0:09:52 > 0:09:56Are we in the West too willing to point the finger at him?
0:09:56 > 0:09:59Yes, to some extent.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03I think it's important that the international diplomatic processes
0:10:03 > 0:10:06with Putin continue.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09It is not similar to the situation in the Cold War
0:10:09 > 0:10:13because Russia and Europe depend on each other more now
0:10:13 > 0:10:14with regard to trade.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19The trade of gas, for example, is the obvious element in the Ukraine
0:10:19 > 0:10:24but Russia also trades with European countries.
0:10:24 > 0:10:29So that business side is much more important now
0:10:29 > 0:10:33and there are economic considerations, not only political ones.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37This part of the world has a turbulent history
0:10:37 > 0:10:41and the names of some places in Wales are proof of that,
0:10:41 > 0:10:44following the Crimean War in the 1850s.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47The victory of Britain and its allies over Russia was celebrated
0:10:47 > 0:10:52by naming several streets, towns or locations after the area.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54You have the Crimea Pass in Gwynedd
0:10:54 > 0:10:56and the village of Sebastopol near Pontypool.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58We asked the historian, John Davies,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01to put this latest crisis into context
0:11:01 > 0:11:04and to tell us more about the Welsh connections.
0:11:14 > 0:11:19There are many streets, if you go to Swansea or Brynmawr or Llanelli,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22there are names that commemorate the Crimean battles.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Balaclava, of course.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27Inkerman, Alma. They all commemorate.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30And we have to remember, in this patch of Cardiff,
0:11:30 > 0:11:35most of the streets are named after the victories of the British Empire.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37In the 50s of the 19th century,
0:11:37 > 0:11:40when these big towns were growing quickly,
0:11:40 > 0:11:45they were running out of names and they regularly heard about Balaclava
0:11:45 > 0:11:47and Sebastopol and places like that.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50There's a place outside Pontypool called Sebastopol.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53And naturally, they used these names.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58If you go back to the Crimean War,
0:11:58 > 0:12:02it was an effort to control Russia's ability
0:12:02 > 0:12:05to become the masters of the Black Sea.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08And maybe they'd come down to the Mediterranean.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10It strikes me as a very similar story
0:12:10 > 0:12:12to the one we're faced with today.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14Nothing changes in history, in my opinion.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20If you go back to the Greek traditions, for example,
0:12:20 > 0:12:23where was the golden fleece? It was in the Crimea.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25Where did the Amazonians live?
0:12:25 > 0:12:27It is said that they lived in that region as well.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31So it has a central place in the mythological history of the world
0:12:31 > 0:12:35and the Ukraine has played a central role in all kinds of things.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38It's the largest country in Europe, by a long way.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40It's much bigger than France, for example.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44It's believed that was where Indo-European languages began,
0:12:44 > 0:12:46including early versions of the Welsh language.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49It's believed that is where they first developed.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53That is where they mastered horse-back riding for the first time.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58So you could say Europe was created by the Ukraine to some extent.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02Of course, the Ukraine was destroyed by the Turkish and the Mongolians
0:13:02 > 0:13:06and power moved more to the north, to the Moscow area and so on.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08They have developed the idea in their heads
0:13:08 > 0:13:11that they own the whole of the Ukraine.
0:13:11 > 0:13:16The Ukraine won its independence in 1990
0:13:16 > 0:13:21but I think they call it 'near abroad', so just over the border.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24We're going to say what happens there.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26We still have an element of that today.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32They have rich Welsh connections.
0:13:32 > 0:13:36One of the problems that has emerged recently is that eastern Ukraine
0:13:36 > 0:13:40tends to be more pro-Russian than the west,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43where influences from Poland and the Catholic Church
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and things like that have been important
0:13:45 > 0:13:47and that area is also closer to common market.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50That's where the desire to get closer to Europe is strongest.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53But it's much more Russian in the east
0:13:53 > 0:13:57and a man from Merthyr Tydfil, Mr John Hughes,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00built huge ironworks there.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05He named the place after himself.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09He brought in many, many Russians
0:14:09 > 0:14:15and made what was the Ukrainian village Russian.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18When it looks different, we can say
0:14:18 > 0:14:21it is down to a man from Merthyr Tydfil.
0:14:21 > 0:14:27So we have had connections with that part of the world for centuries.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32A history lesson from John Davies.
0:14:32 > 0:14:38Most people in the Crimea see themselves as Russians.
0:14:38 > 0:14:44Their language and identity are an important part in this conflict.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47Just as it does in several conflicts worldwide.
0:14:47 > 0:14:52We have seen that in Wales as well.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55In Wales, we can be proud of the fact
0:14:55 > 0:15:00that we do not go down any violent paths
0:15:00 > 0:15:05as we have political discussions about identity, language
0:15:05 > 0:15:08and politics in general.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12I think that seeing this in the Ukraine and in Crimea
0:15:12 > 0:15:15reminds us of how fortunate we are in Wales
0:15:15 > 0:15:20to have these discussions in a democratic way.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23These boundaries are important in eastern Europe
0:15:23 > 0:15:26in a way that they are not in western Europe.
0:15:26 > 0:15:29The boundaries are more or less settled
0:15:29 > 0:15:32and we do not have arguments about that.
0:15:32 > 0:15:37In Scotland, they have the right to decide on their own future
0:15:37 > 0:15:42and the same as Northern Ireland.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44- Is the same true in the Crimea? - Of course.
0:15:44 > 0:15:49Yes, to some extent, but through a democratic vote
0:15:49 > 0:15:54and internal discussions in the Ukraine, as it is at the moment,
0:15:54 > 0:15:57and amongst the people who should decide
0:15:57 > 0:16:01what their vote is to be for the next century.
0:16:01 > 0:16:06The original foundation of this argument
0:16:06 > 0:16:09was that some people in the Ukraine want to get closer to Russia
0:16:09 > 0:16:11and others closer to Europe.
0:16:11 > 0:16:17Are the same arguments going to come up in other European countries
0:16:17 > 0:16:19over the next few years
0:16:19 > 0:16:24as their relationship with the Soviet Union is questioned?
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Of course. The situation could be very complex.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30We have to remember how big the Ukraine is.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34It is one of the biggest countries in Europe.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38And it is important for them to find their own response
0:16:38 > 0:16:40in their own country.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42How can they live together?
0:16:42 > 0:16:48How can they create enough respect between both groups?
0:16:48 > 0:16:51Because there are so many different groups there
0:16:51 > 0:16:57and it is not up to us to provide them with an answer,
0:16:57 > 0:17:00but it is up to us to be open to help them
0:17:00 > 0:17:04and to say to them, you can have connections with Europe
0:17:04 > 0:17:07as long as you keep connections open with Russia.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09That is important at the moment.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12Because the world is getting smaller and smaller
0:17:12 > 0:17:14and we do not have to say
0:17:14 > 0:17:18that you have to choose between one or the other.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21You have to keep connections with all kinds of people
0:17:21 > 0:17:24and give everyone in the country the opportunity
0:17:24 > 0:17:29to feel they can use their own language
0:17:29 > 0:17:31and take part in their society.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34We cannot give them an answer now
0:17:34 > 0:17:37and tell them, you have to do a specific thing.
0:17:37 > 0:17:39Let us move on.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42Another week, and another announcement about devolution.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45That's how things have felt over the past few months.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48The latest chapter in Wales' constitutional soap opera
0:17:48 > 0:17:50was the second part of the Silk Report.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53A commission set up two and a half years ago
0:17:53 > 0:17:56by the British government to evaluate
0:17:56 > 0:17:59the way powers are shared between London and Cardiff Bay.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02And the conclusions, Vaughan?
0:18:02 > 0:18:05More powers for Cardiff.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07In reality, Silk recommended
0:18:07 > 0:18:11everything that the Welsh government wanted.
0:18:11 > 0:18:16But we do not know what will happen about those recommendations.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20I noticed yesterday in the Assembly
0:18:20 > 0:18:24that the Silk Report was not discussed very much,
0:18:24 > 0:18:27apart from the occasional reference.
0:18:27 > 0:18:32Perhaps people realised that generally,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35it is a matter for the manifestoes and the election
0:18:35 > 0:18:39rather than for sudden legislation.
0:18:39 > 0:18:45Are we ever going to see the work of this commission?
0:18:45 > 0:18:48We know the first part is in the process
0:18:48 > 0:18:51of devolving some powers relating to taxes.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54There is a general election soon.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58Is that going to stop the ideas being developed?
0:18:58 > 0:19:02The timing is rather disappointing.
0:19:02 > 0:19:07And perhaps there is not enough time to devolve these powers fully
0:19:07 > 0:19:12to the Assembly during the present term of the Westminster government,
0:19:12 > 0:19:16even if the political will was there to do it.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19Because now, of course, if they do not take the opportunity
0:19:19 > 0:19:22to take the Welsh measure under the financial side
0:19:22 > 0:19:26to include some of the powers as well,
0:19:26 > 0:19:30then it will all go back to the political party's manifestoes
0:19:30 > 0:19:33for the next general election
0:19:33 > 0:19:36and possibly some of it will be lost
0:19:36 > 0:19:41and various parties will choose the policies they like and dislike.
0:19:41 > 0:19:47And we will lose the comprehensive recommendation made by Silk.
0:19:47 > 0:19:55And it should be regarded as a complete package
0:19:55 > 0:20:00rather than as separate points.
0:20:00 > 0:20:07One recommendation is the idea of devolving the police to Wales.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10As an expert on law, people at home will be asking
0:20:10 > 0:20:14how that would affect their day-to-day lives
0:20:14 > 0:20:17if the Welsh government was responsible for policing.
0:20:17 > 0:20:22I do not think we need to worry too much about the minor details
0:20:22 > 0:20:25of what would happen if that came about.
0:20:25 > 0:20:31What is important is that it is in the spirit of devolution.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34If the other emergency services are devolved,
0:20:34 > 0:20:38then it makes sense for the police,
0:20:38 > 0:20:41as another branch of those services,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44to also be coordinated.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49That the policy is developed in the same place
0:20:49 > 0:20:52and that everything is coordinated in a better way.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54It is a matter of common sense.
0:20:54 > 0:20:59Of course, Wales has its own particular needs as a rural country.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01So we need to look at rural police officers,
0:21:01 > 0:21:05as well as addressing the linguistic needs.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09So without trying to foresee exactly what would change,
0:21:09 > 0:21:12what is important is that we accept it in principle.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15Because that is what devolution is all about.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17The important thing is to accept it in principle to begin with.
0:21:17 > 0:21:22More powers at the same time as people are asking
0:21:22 > 0:21:24what has happened to our health system
0:21:24 > 0:21:26and education since devolution.
0:21:26 > 0:21:32People are saying that we have taken steps backwards in that respect.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36Your colleague on the Labour bench, Ann Clwyd, made the same point today.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38Why should we have more powers
0:21:38 > 0:21:41considering the state of the health service in Wales.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43How do you respond to that?
0:21:43 > 0:21:46What is important is not the headlines,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49but more of an explanation of the situation.
0:21:49 > 0:21:55Because we have seen acts go to court to decide
0:21:55 > 0:21:59whether Westminster or Cardiff should make the decisions.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03It is important to me that they are discussing
0:22:03 > 0:22:08telling Cardiff that Cardiff will be responsible,
0:22:08 > 0:22:11unless Westminster are responsible.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16It is going to be assumed that Cardiff Bay will be responsible.
0:22:16 > 0:22:21And this will make it much clearer and it will really help.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24When we talk about health, of course,
0:22:24 > 0:22:29they have said we need to work together across the borders.
0:22:29 > 0:22:30And this is also important.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Perhaps nobody has realised that
0:22:33 > 0:22:36because they are talking about more powers.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39But it is important to cooperate.
0:22:39 > 0:22:43It is an anorak subject.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46But changing the emphasis in the devolution model
0:22:46 > 0:22:51so Wales imitates what's happening in Scotland and Northern Ireland,
0:22:51 > 0:22:54as Nia said, cases have been taken to the High Court.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56If we changed the model, perhaps that will not happen.
0:22:56 > 0:23:01Changing the model is something the Labour Party in Westminster
0:23:01 > 0:23:04and Cardiff Bay can agree on.
0:23:04 > 0:23:09There are some different opinions about some of the recommendations.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11But the truth of the matter is
0:23:11 > 0:23:15if you look at the devolution process,
0:23:15 > 0:23:18every development has essentially come
0:23:18 > 0:23:20as the result of talks between a hung parliament.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22Either in Cardiff Bay or Westminster.
0:23:22 > 0:23:27It is important that the man who accepted the Silk Report for England
0:23:27 > 0:23:31was Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34A lot is going to depend on
0:23:34 > 0:23:40parliamentary mathematics in 2015-2016.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43Does the report go far enough? Is it radical enough?
0:23:43 > 0:23:48Why not recommend devolving broadcasting completely to Wales?
0:23:48 > 0:23:50Why not completely devolve law?
0:23:50 > 0:23:55No, it is not radical enough for Plaid Cymru
0:23:55 > 0:23:58and some of the other Assembly members.
0:23:58 > 0:24:03And they could have taken more significant steps on broadcasting
0:24:03 > 0:24:06rather than taking small steps
0:24:06 > 0:24:10with regard to the governing body of the BBC, for example.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13But there have been some radical proposals
0:24:13 > 0:24:17with regards to some things, such as water, for example.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20That is very clear.
0:24:20 > 0:24:24It's something Plaid Cymru has been pushing for for several years now.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27So, no, it is not radical enough,
0:24:27 > 0:24:29but it is a step in the right direction.
0:24:29 > 0:24:34Thank you all for joining us tonight.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36That is the end of our programme.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39Thank you to our guests and to you for watching.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41We won't be here next week,
0:24:41 > 0:24:44but Bethan and Vaughan will be back in two weeks.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47From all of us on the team, good night.