0:00:02 > 0:00:04Welcome back. Who is responsible for keeping Wales healthy?
0:00:04 > 0:00:08What is a fair wage? Those are the topics for tonight's Y Sgwrs.
0:00:16 > 0:00:22Welcome. We have already heard about the Welsh Government's plans to
0:00:22 > 0:00:27improve our health, but is the nanny state alive and well?
0:00:27 > 0:00:30And what makes a fair wage?
0:00:30 > 0:00:32It is 15 years since the minimum wage was introduced.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35We'll hear about the experience of one woman who lives on just
0:00:35 > 0:00:37over £6 an hour.
0:00:37 > 0:00:42At one point I was so skint, I had to wash my clothes in the bath.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45At that point I felt very low.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49I said, how long do I have to carry on like this before things improve?
0:00:51 > 0:00:52But first tonight, our guests.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55Vaughan is here to analyse, as usual.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Joining us is the Conservative Harri Lloyd Davies
0:00:58 > 0:01:00and the former paediatrician Dr Dewi Evans,
0:01:00 > 0:01:04who is also a town councillor for Plaid Cymru in Carmarthen town.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07And joining us from our studio in London is former Labour Assembly
0:01:07 > 0:01:10Member Delyth Evans, who will be standing in the Carmarthen West
0:01:10 > 0:01:14and South Pembrokeshire constituency at next year's General Election.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Welcome to you all.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20As we heard on Newyddion, the Welsh Government has announced
0:01:20 > 0:01:25plans to try and tackle some of Wales' biggest health problems.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28According to Health Minister Mark Drakeford,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31the measures continue the radical public health traditions of Wales.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35But do they go too far?
0:01:45 > 0:01:50Do we need help from the Government to live more healthily?
0:01:50 > 0:01:58That question has been asked a number of times in the past.
0:01:58 > 0:02:03Headlines from a few centuries ago showed the Government was
0:02:03 > 0:02:05worried about public health.
0:02:07 > 0:02:1523 out of every 1,000 people would die.
0:02:15 > 0:02:22There was no help from the authorities.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26It was personal responsibility, but it was believed that the
0:02:26 > 0:02:30Government should do more to improve public health.
0:02:30 > 0:02:36In 1848, the first Public Health Act was passed,
0:02:36 > 0:02:38and that was in order to cut the number of deaths.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46Steel bars protect your child from the obvious killers.
0:02:46 > 0:02:52This advert from the 1950s is a health warning.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57Immunisation.
0:02:57 > 0:03:02British ministers have been legislating on public health
0:03:02 > 0:03:05legislation.
0:03:05 > 0:03:10You have examples such as wearing seat belts,
0:03:10 > 0:03:18banning smoking in public places and hygiene.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22According to Dr Myfanwy Davies,
0:03:22 > 0:03:27it is too early to assess the success of the most recent policies.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30The problem is, it works over a long time.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34You cannot say for certain that anything works,
0:03:34 > 0:03:39which has been decided by the Assembly.
0:03:39 > 0:03:50There is support for the policies on smoking in public,
0:03:50 > 0:03:58but it will take a generation to prove that it has made a difference.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00Let's come back to the present.
0:04:00 > 0:04:05The latest White Paper from the Welsh Government has
0:04:05 > 0:04:10recommended banning e-cigarettes in public places.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14But what do students think? Where are they?
0:04:14 > 0:04:20They are not in the library, that would be far too obvious.
0:04:20 > 0:04:25We live in a state with a National Health Service.
0:04:25 > 0:04:32It is only fair that the Government can give guidelines.
0:04:32 > 0:04:33They are there to serve us.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38It is up to the individual to see what is good and bad.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42The Government can pass on the information.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45I have never smoked myself,
0:04:45 > 0:04:53but you would not think about seeing someone smoke in a pub now.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59According to a Conservative MP,
0:04:59 > 0:05:04the Welsh Government is going too far when it comes to e-cigarettes.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06There is no excuse for this.
0:05:06 > 0:05:13It is a nanny state, and politicians and the Government thinking
0:05:13 > 0:05:18they know better than anyone else.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23How people should live their lives.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28But the truth is, the Health Service is under more pressure than ever
0:05:28 > 0:05:31and treating patients for alcohol
0:05:31 > 0:05:33and tobacco-related problems is one major factor in this.
0:05:33 > 0:05:38It is not surprising the Government is trying to intervene.
0:05:41 > 0:05:46As a doctor, does the Government need to help in order to get
0:05:46 > 0:05:53the message across?
0:05:53 > 0:05:58These new cigarettes help people who want to give up smoking.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01We have to welcome that.
0:06:01 > 0:06:07But they get their nicotine fix through these e-cigarettes.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12As a paediatrician, there is
0:06:12 > 0:06:15a tendency on behalf of young people to experiment.
0:06:15 > 0:06:24I hope they do not experiment with these artificial cigarettes
0:06:24 > 0:06:27and then get an addiction for those.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31I believe the Government is doing the right thing.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34I can understand both sides of the argument,
0:06:34 > 0:06:39but I would ban these cigarettes in public paces.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43Your party says it is about being a nanny state?
0:06:43 > 0:06:49Something like this worries me.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53I do not think we have seen enough testing to show that we need
0:06:53 > 0:06:55this legislation.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58It will be very difficult to ban these,
0:06:58 > 0:07:06more so than it was to ban smoking.
0:07:06 > 0:07:14It is just something that worries the minister.
0:07:14 > 0:07:20I do not think the evidence is there.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22That is a fair point.
0:07:22 > 0:07:28There is no strong evidence, is the minister jumping the gun?
0:07:28 > 0:07:30I do not think so.
0:07:30 > 0:07:35I think this point of stamping out a bad habit before it gets too
0:07:35 > 0:07:37much is a good thing.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41We heard this morning that companies that produce these
0:07:41 > 0:07:44cigarettes are targeting young people.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47They can see a possible market.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51It is not yet clear how damaging these are.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55But you do try and change behaviour.
0:07:55 > 0:08:02What I welcome from these measures is the suggestion that we
0:08:02 > 0:08:10will have a minimum number of units of alcohol being set.
0:08:12 > 0:08:20There are clear connections between setting prices for alcohol
0:08:21 > 0:08:26and illnesses.
0:08:27 > 0:08:35Vaughan, Mark Drakeford has said it is a duty
0:08:35 > 0:08:41and priority for any Government to protect public health.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43The secret here for any Government is to be one step
0:08:43 > 0:08:50ahead of public opinion.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53You cannot go too far ahead.
0:08:53 > 0:08:58When the drink-driving ban was introduced,
0:08:58 > 0:09:01that was very controversial.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05Car manufacturers had to place seat belts in cars, and it
0:09:05 > 0:09:11was another 20 years before that was legislated upon.
0:09:11 > 0:09:19I do not think the public opinion has
0:09:19 > 0:09:23formed concerning e-cigarettes yet.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27We have discussed these nudge policies,
0:09:27 > 0:09:30encouraging people to act in a certain way.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34But to introduce a ban is a different thing, isn't it?
0:09:34 > 0:09:38I do not think it is heavy-handed,
0:09:38 > 0:09:43but perhaps it is coming into early for public opinion.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47The reason for banning smoking in public places was very
0:09:47 > 0:09:52successful, because the public would police it.
0:09:52 > 0:09:58The public would confront someone who was lighting up in a bar.
0:09:58 > 0:10:03It is not clear, when someone is using an e-cigarette, if there was
0:10:03 > 0:10:07evidence concerning second-hand smoke with proper cigarettes.
0:10:07 > 0:10:20We do not have that evidence with these cigarettes yet.
0:10:20 > 0:10:27Talking about that, imagine someone trying to give up smoking,
0:10:27 > 0:10:33they try these e-cigarettes, but then they have to go out into
0:10:33 > 0:10:38the smoking section, but they will start smoking again, won't they?
0:10:38 > 0:10:41I do not think the minister
0:10:41 > 0:10:46and the Welsh Government would have made a suggestion like this unless
0:10:46 > 0:10:51they had looked into it carefully and considered it thoroughly.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55I agree, it is early days, and I agree with what
0:10:55 > 0:10:59Vaughan Roderick said about public opinion not having formed yet.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02But we want to make sure there is no
0:11:02 > 0:11:05difference between the different types of smoking,
0:11:05 > 0:11:09and they do not want young people to get sucked into bad habits.
0:11:09 > 0:11:14People can get into a habit, and there is a danger there,
0:11:14 > 0:11:19which is what we want to avoid.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23Is there a danger that these will become fashionable,
0:11:23 > 0:11:30because the packets are colourful, and they can be trendy?
0:11:30 > 0:11:34I do not smoke them but a lot of people do.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37Perhaps they could become fashionable,
0:11:37 > 0:11:41but to make them fashionable, we just need to ban them.
0:11:41 > 0:11:42We should wait and see.
0:11:42 > 0:11:46Alcohol - as a doctor,
0:11:46 > 0:11:48do you think setting a minimum price is a good thing?
0:11:48 > 0:11:52It has worked in Finland
0:11:52 > 0:11:56and in other countries.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59That is the best thing you can do to
0:11:59 > 0:12:03cut down alcohol consumption. You need to put the price up.
0:12:03 > 0:12:09I would welcome a policy which bans the sale of alcohol in supermarkets.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12I believe alcohol should only be for sale in pubs.
0:12:12 > 0:12:19But people like these bargains that you can get in supermarkets.
0:12:19 > 0:12:26People who drink one bottle of wine a week would suffer, wouldn't they?
0:12:26 > 0:12:34If you are addicted to alcohol, then you are addicted to alcohol.
0:12:35 > 0:12:44It is a terrible disease, and it will kill you.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46I am not sure how you can stop that,
0:12:46 > 0:12:49because people will find some way of getting hold of it.
0:12:49 > 0:12:57Hardly anyone drinks nothing.
0:12:57 > 0:13:03More than 80% of alcohol consumption happens in the home,
0:13:03 > 0:13:06that is the danger.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10The minimum price?
0:13:10 > 0:13:13I think it is something that will be included.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17They have tried to do it in England.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20I do not know why it needs to happen in Wales first.
0:13:20 > 0:13:23Why can't it be introduced across Britain at the same time?
0:13:23 > 0:13:26I do not understand it.
0:13:26 > 0:13:34There is a danger that Wales could become a tough place to do business.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38Do they have the power, Vaughan?
0:13:38 > 0:13:43The Government insists that there is a similar scheme in Scotland.
0:13:43 > 0:13:49The Government would not have included it in the White Paper
0:13:49 > 0:13:58unless it could be turned into legislation.
0:13:58 > 0:14:05There could be a challenge from one of the alcohol companies,
0:14:05 > 0:14:14but the Welsh Government has tended to win these arguments in the past.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18When we talk about the nanny state,
0:14:18 > 0:14:25are we seeing more of it across the world?
0:14:25 > 0:14:31What is striking is that we are becoming less liberal
0:14:31 > 0:14:36in some ways, but more liberal in other ways.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39It is a process.
0:14:39 > 0:14:44We have just seen a very liberal change when it comes to the
0:14:44 > 0:14:52marriage laws, but then we are clamping down on other things.
0:14:52 > 0:14:58Public values change from time to time.
0:14:58 > 0:15:05Things change as societies change.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09- There is now going to be a consultation process?- Yes, 12 weeks.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13I would think the Government has the numbers in the Assembly to
0:15:13 > 0:15:20get this through, but they will be looking at it closely.
0:15:20 > 0:15:24A number of Assembly members supported the ban on smoking,
0:15:24 > 0:15:32but perhaps they are not so convinced on this.
0:15:33 > 0:15:38The minimum wage is celebrating its anniversary.
0:15:38 > 0:15:44It currently stands at £6.31, but the TUC says it is too low.
0:15:44 > 0:15:50The union wants employers to pay a living wage of £7.65 an hour
0:15:50 > 0:15:53to meet living costs.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57Recently, the union has also criticised zero hours
0:15:57 > 0:16:01contracts where workers don't have any certainty of regular work.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04Y Sgwrs has been talking to a woman from Cardiff who has
0:16:04 > 0:16:08experience of living on the minimum wage.
0:16:14 > 0:16:15I'm Efa Thomas.
0:16:15 > 0:16:21I am 23 years old, I graduated last summer.
0:16:21 > 0:16:25Since then, I have had two jobs.
0:16:25 > 0:16:29The first one was in a bar, it paid £6.31 an hour.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34Living on the minimum wage is difficult.
0:16:34 > 0:16:39It is especially difficult in the winter.
0:16:39 > 0:16:44I live in a house, and it is very cold.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47The energy prices are going up
0:16:47 > 0:16:50so I could barely afford to warm the house.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53At one point, I was so skint.
0:16:53 > 0:16:58Because of that, I had to wash my clothes in the bath.
0:16:58 > 0:17:00At that point I felt really low.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04How long would I have to scrape by before things improved?
0:17:08 > 0:17:13I believe the minimum wage should be a living wage, there is
0:17:13 > 0:17:15no reason why it should not be.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19It is just so that companies can make more profit.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22I cannot see another reason for it.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25I respect companies who say they will pay the living wage
0:17:25 > 0:17:30are those that will lead the way for other companies.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36I have friends who have zero hour contracts,
0:17:36 > 0:17:38and I think the idea is ridiculous.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40It should be banned.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43How are you supposed to have any stability in life
0:17:43 > 0:17:48when you do not know how many hours you will work?
0:17:48 > 0:17:52I believe part of the problem is that there isn't much work around.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54No matter what work you do,
0:17:54 > 0:17:59you are made to feel that you are lucky to have work.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04For the politicians who make the decisions, I would say,
0:18:04 > 0:18:06put yourself in our shoes.
0:18:06 > 0:18:12Those of us who have to work on low wages.
0:18:12 > 0:18:17Stop looking after the big companies who make profits.
0:18:17 > 0:18:22Give people who are trying to earn a living more respect.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25The experiences of Efa Thomas.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28Harri Lloyd Davies, where do you stand on this,
0:18:28 > 0:18:33are you in favour of the minimum wage but not ready for the living wage?
0:18:33 > 0:18:40The minimum wage has helped people on small wages to get an increase.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44But the living wage is unproven,
0:18:44 > 0:18:47it's something drawn up by someone from Loughborough University.
0:18:47 > 0:18:52How can you have a living wage that is fair for every area?
0:18:52 > 0:18:58It should be made clear that the figure is not easy to work out.
0:18:58 > 0:19:03Somewhere like West Wales is going to create problems,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06because people will not be able to afford to pay these wages.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10- Could you live on the minimum wage? - I haven't tried, to be honest.
0:19:10 > 0:19:14You need flexibility.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17It helps companies to be more flexible.
0:19:17 > 0:19:23People would be better off working than not working.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26There is a danger, if you try to increase wages too quickly.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28Are you in favour of the living wage?
0:19:28 > 0:19:32Certainly. £7.65 is not a big wage.
0:19:32 > 0:19:38The best way to improve health is to tackle poverty.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42The best way to tackle poverty is to make sure that people
0:19:42 > 0:19:46have an income, and they have work.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49What about the employers who can't afford this?
0:19:49 > 0:19:52We have had a minimum wage for some time now,
0:19:52 > 0:19:54and it has not led to a fall in employees.
0:19:54 > 0:20:00We still have more people in work than are unemployed.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04That was the right wing's scare tactic
0:20:04 > 0:20:08when the minimum wage was introduced.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10It did not lead to a loss of jobs.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14If you lift the wage to this figure
0:20:14 > 0:20:19which they have called a living wage,
0:20:19 > 0:20:22perhaps it will be too much.
0:20:22 > 0:20:27When you look at countries where the minimum wages are more than Britain,
0:20:27 > 0:20:31they have less unemployment and people are healthier.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33We must learn from these countries.
0:20:33 > 0:20:38Delyth Evans, George Osborne wants full employment,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42he wants a minimum wage that increases faster than inflation.
0:20:42 > 0:20:43He's stolen your ideas?!
0:20:43 > 0:20:48Everyone knows this is a political tactic from George Osborne.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50He has not spoken about this before.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53He is trying to step on Labour ground.
0:20:53 > 0:20:57Ed Miliband has led the way and talked about this,
0:20:57 > 0:21:01and he has said that when Labour are elected,
0:21:01 > 0:21:06they would encourage companies to pay a living wage
0:21:06 > 0:21:08by offering lower taxes.
0:21:08 > 0:21:15He is trying to encourage people to move towards this.
0:21:15 > 0:21:22People are finding it difficult because of poverty.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26I worked for John Smith, the leader of the Labour Party,
0:21:26 > 0:21:30when the minimum wage policy was brought forward.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34The Conservatives said at the time that people would lose jobs
0:21:34 > 0:21:36and it would be terrible for the economy.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38There was no effect at all on jobs.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41We have had all of this before.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45What is interesting now is that all parties say
0:21:45 > 0:21:47they welcome the minimum wage.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50The debate has moved on, and I welcome that.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54The gap between the parties has closed on this?
0:21:54 > 0:21:58The Conservatives know, once you lose a political battle,
0:21:58 > 0:22:01there is no point going over it again.
0:22:01 > 0:22:06Labour has proved that its policy was correct.
0:22:06 > 0:22:12Nobody would like to go back to a situation
0:22:12 > 0:22:17where it was possible for people to be paid hardly anything.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21When it comes to whether or not the living wage is affordable,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25some councils in Wales use it already, don't they?
0:22:25 > 0:22:30Yes, and this is not a party political thing.
0:22:30 > 0:22:36But the councils are facing a difficult economic time,
0:22:36 > 0:22:43even some Labour councils have said they cannot afford it.
0:22:43 > 0:22:51There are even some Labour councils who use zero-hours contracts.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55What about these contracts, are they fair?
0:22:55 > 0:22:57I think they work.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00At the end of the day, they are used by these companies
0:23:00 > 0:23:03who do not really want to use them.
0:23:03 > 0:23:08You want to employ staff who will be with you for years,
0:23:08 > 0:23:12but sometimes, you have to be flexible,
0:23:12 > 0:23:16to get people in to help you out when large contracts come in.
0:23:16 > 0:23:22But people cannot afford to rent houses, get mortgages?
0:23:22 > 0:23:27That is why you would not want to employ people in this manner.
0:23:27 > 0:23:32You want good people who stay with you.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35I think the rules have to be the same for the employer
0:23:35 > 0:23:36and the employee.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39It is easy for an employer to get someone in at the start
0:23:39 > 0:23:43of their career, youngsters, and maybe for those
0:23:43 > 0:23:48who have been unemployed for some time.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52It is good for them to have flexibility.
0:23:52 > 0:23:57- So they can be justified? - But after a period,
0:23:57 > 0:24:01if someone has worked for someone for six months or so,
0:24:01 > 0:24:09then the rights should change and they should have the same rights.
0:24:09 > 0:24:13I do not think this is something
0:24:13 > 0:24:17that someone should have to suffer from for life.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21People need certainty that they will have a job tomorrow.
0:24:21 > 0:24:27Currently, someone can demand that you are sat at home
0:24:27 > 0:24:33and not take another job in case you're needed next week.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37Thanks. Delyth, thanks for joining us from London. Time has flown.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41Thanks to our guests and to you for your company.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44We will be taking a break over Easter
0:24:44 > 0:24:46but we will be back on 30 April.
0:24:46 > 0:24:48Until then, goodbye.