0:00:02 > 0:00:05Councils, the Natural Resources Minister and the future of tourism,
0:00:05 > 0:00:07plenty to discuss tonight on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19Yes, welcome. Vaughan and I are joined this
0:00:19 > 0:00:27evening by Cardiff Labour Councillor Huw Thomas, Dr Marlene Davies,
0:00:27 > 0:00:32an expert on local government, and the Plaid Cymru AM Simon Thomas.
0:00:32 > 0:00:37A significant number of jobs could be lost at councils across Wales,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40according to the chief executive of the WLGA.
0:00:40 > 0:00:45Steve Thomas warned that the councils' financial situation is
0:00:45 > 0:00:49worsening and they face cuts similar to those already seen in England.
0:00:49 > 0:00:53He added that authorities here are less willing to cooperate
0:00:53 > 0:00:56with their neighbours, in case
0:00:56 > 0:01:01they are then forced by the Welsh Government to merge.
0:01:01 > 0:01:06Well, following the comparisons with England, our correspondent, Janet
0:01:06 > 0:01:10Ebenezer has been to London to find out more about a pioneering scheme.
0:01:12 > 0:01:17There is no doubt that the situation for Welsh councils is worsening.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21Last week, the Local Government Minister said that councils must
0:01:21 > 0:01:25prepare for a difficult period of cutbacks,
0:01:25 > 0:01:29which could vary from 1.5% and 4.5%.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33This week, the Welsh Local Government Association warned
0:01:33 > 0:01:38there would be redundancies if there are further budget cuts.
0:01:38 > 0:01:44The term English-style cuts has been used to describe the cuts.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48Let's take a look at the situation across the border.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53All English councils have had to face budget cuts.
0:01:53 > 0:01:58Parts of the north of England has witnessed cuts of up
0:01:58 > 0:02:02to 27% to their budgets during the past four years.
0:02:04 > 0:02:08I've travelled to an area where three councils are cooperating
0:02:08 > 0:02:10to save money.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14Since 2010, Hammersmith & Fulham, Westminster
0:02:14 > 0:02:18and Kensington & Chelsea share children's services,
0:02:18 > 0:02:23libraries and adult social care, to name but a few.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27And two of them even share a chief executive.
0:02:27 > 0:02:32Wyn Morgan has lived in Hammersmith for seven years and raised a family.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35I am a governor at the local school
0:02:35 > 0:02:38and everything comes from the three councils.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42In the past, each council would have someone in charge of education,
0:02:42 > 0:02:44each earning around £150,000 each.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48But now it is one person running the whole thing,
0:02:48 > 0:02:52so they have saved £300,000 just by getting rid of two people.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55- Do you think more councils should do this?- Yes, certainly.
0:02:55 > 0:03:00I think of the example of Birmingham - a city of one million people
0:03:00 > 0:03:05and they have one chief executive and he earns around £180,000.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08In London, you have around 40 councils
0:03:08 > 0:03:10and the heads all earn around he same amount for running
0:03:10 > 0:03:14a council with maybe a population of 250,000.
0:03:14 > 0:03:18But since the councils began working together in London,
0:03:18 > 0:03:20at least 200 jobs have gone.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24In Wales, there are plans to merge councils, so what does
0:03:24 > 0:03:29one of the members of Westminster council cabinet think about that?
0:03:29 > 0:03:32We think that shared services is a much better solution.
0:03:32 > 0:03:33In terms of democracy,
0:03:33 > 0:03:36you want a local council to be looking after local residents
0:03:36 > 0:03:39and therefore, you can reduce costs by sharing services.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42I don't think that we would ever want to merge the councils.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45We have a very different attitude to many sort of things,
0:03:45 > 0:03:47- and so it should be.- Of course,
0:03:47 > 0:03:51it's hard to compare a prosperous area such as Hammersmith with
0:03:51 > 0:03:52areas across Wales,
0:03:52 > 0:03:56but in sharing public services and a chief executive,
0:03:56 > 0:04:01the three councils in London have made significant savings.
0:04:01 > 0:04:02They've not gone as far as merging,
0:04:02 > 0:04:07so the plans for Wales do go a step further.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10But as regards the process of change -
0:04:10 > 0:04:12that journey is only just beginning.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20Janet Ebenezer on the train.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23Vaughan, how much cooperation is there in Wales right now?
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Well, the Welsh Government has been urging councils to
0:04:26 > 0:04:29cooperate for years.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31And there are some examples of that happening,
0:04:31 > 0:04:35but not half as much as the Government would wish to see.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39The clearest examples are the consortia now working
0:04:39 > 0:04:45on improving education, but in truth it varies from one area to the next.
0:04:45 > 0:04:50There is not a wide pattern of cooperation across all councils.
0:04:50 > 0:04:55Huw, as regards Cardiff, do you cooperate with any other councils?
0:04:55 > 0:05:01Yes, we work closely with the Vale of Glamorgan Council.
0:05:01 > 0:05:05There are jobs shared in social services, for example,
0:05:05 > 0:05:07between Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan.
0:05:07 > 0:05:11As Vaughan said, there are patterns of sharing across Wales,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14but I think there is a need for more of that.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16I think there is a consensus on that.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18Are you seeing savings already?
0:05:18 > 0:05:21You do see savings, but we must also remember that there are some
0:05:21 > 0:05:24jobs that you cannot have one person doing.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28For example, you can't have someone running a library in Cardiff
0:05:28 > 0:05:31who is also running library in Barry.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34But it's at senior level that you need the cooperation.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37There is still work to be done. That is the problem.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41I think it is important not to exaggerate the savings.
0:05:41 > 0:05:46Marlene, this makes sense, doesn't it? It works in London.
0:05:46 > 0:05:51Three Conservative councils. But could it work in Wales?
0:05:51 > 0:05:56Well, the problem that has already been mentioned is the fact
0:05:56 > 0:05:59that councils are scared...
0:05:59 > 0:06:02You mentioned Cardiff working with the Vale,
0:06:02 > 0:06:06but the thing is that may not be the one you would merge with,
0:06:06 > 0:06:08if the Assembly decides you need to merge.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10Ceredigion working with Pembrokeshire,
0:06:10 > 0:06:13maybe they wouldn't be working together when you merge.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16That is a problem, so they are wary of starting the process,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19if two or three years down the line they are not working together.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22But they've had years where there was no threat of reorganisation
0:06:22 > 0:06:25- and there has been very little cooperation.- They are worried...
0:06:25 > 0:06:29Well, are they willing to cooperate? That is the problem.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32And there are a lot of terms - work and pay.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36If you all work in the same place and someone is getting more
0:06:36 > 0:06:40than someone else, it is going to be a problem.
0:06:40 > 0:06:45- Yes, you are an expert and you sound very wary of this.- Well, I am wary.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49- I think maybe the answer is to cut the 22 councils...- So, merging?
0:06:49 > 0:06:51Merge them now and then you won't have a problem -
0:06:51 > 0:06:53they will have to cooperate.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55Simon Thomas, the role of the councils...
0:06:55 > 0:06:58We know that the Williams Commission wants fewer councils,
0:06:58 > 0:07:00but what about their role?
0:07:00 > 0:07:03Steve Thomas this week suggesting maybe
0:07:03 > 0:07:06they could become commissioning bodies.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09Rather than providing services, they would be commissioning services.
0:07:09 > 0:07:10Do you see that happening?
0:07:10 > 0:07:13Well, I would be disappointed if that happened to local
0:07:13 > 0:07:17authorities because I do see them as important in providing services.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21We have a national government now responsible for commissioning
0:07:21 > 0:07:24and national strategy, in the field of education and so on.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28It must be provided by people who are more accountable to local
0:07:28 > 0:07:32people, but we need far more radical reform of public services,
0:07:32 > 0:07:36not just the local authorities - you have the fire service,
0:07:36 > 0:07:39rescue, the police have been devolved, that will
0:07:39 > 0:07:41be included, and of course, we are
0:07:41 > 0:07:44missing the big picture where you have the main public service,
0:07:44 > 0:07:46the NHS, with no democratic level
0:07:46 > 0:07:51and no-one has mentioned what will happen with that.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55So we need to put it all in the pot, in my opinion, rather these odd
0:07:55 > 0:08:00mergers between one or two councils over the next couple of years.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05But we have to tackle situations like Merthyr Council, for example.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08It existed almost as a personal favour to
0:08:08 > 0:08:13Ted Rowlands by David Hunt. It is not even an electoral constituency.
0:08:13 > 0:08:1850,000 people, a chief executive and director of education.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22It doesn't make sense. We have to tackle those small councils.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Yes, and remember many of them
0:08:25 > 0:08:31have been retained through back door deals between Labour and the Tories.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34Now we have devolution and a national government, that is
0:08:34 > 0:08:36out of the question.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39You also have other things developing in Wales,
0:08:39 > 0:08:42such as the regional city, Cardiff is one of them, of course.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44I am originally from the Valleys,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47as you know, and Merthyr has always been
0:08:47 > 0:08:49a problem for people in the Cynon Valley,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52but I want to see more being done with the Valleys and the city
0:08:52 > 0:08:55because there is strong economic development taking place.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57We need to share that.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00It's clear that the Welsh Government wants to see fewer councils,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03but how far does the Labour Party want to go?
0:09:03 > 0:09:06Elin Jones of Plaid Cymru, for example,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09today suggested one health board for Wales.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11Well, that is her opinion.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15I think what we need to remember, as was mentioned in the report,
0:09:15 > 0:09:17jobs will be lost.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20The problem is you have a government n Westminster now that does not
0:09:20 > 0:09:24believe in the state, if I can put it like that.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26In Wales, I think
0:09:26 > 0:09:30you have a different situation where the state, the government,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33in Cardiff or locally, is making a difference to people's lives.
0:09:33 > 0:09:38Changing that focus will devastate communities across Wales.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40But what is difficult...
0:09:40 > 0:09:44It would have been far easier to start on this
0:09:44 > 0:09:47process during the good times.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52There was a lot of money around at the start of the century.
0:09:52 > 0:09:56The Welsh Government is approaching the situation a little late.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00The thing is the last reorganisation took place in 1996.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04We've had the Assembly since then. The Assembly is in place
0:10:04 > 0:10:08and you can look at the local councils as parts of it.
0:10:08 > 0:10:12It's important that the Assembly and these councils cooperate.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15Sometimes they are maybe not cooperating.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18It's them and us, some of the time. They don't want to do something
0:10:18 > 0:10:21because they are being told what to do.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25Even when the same party is in power for both!
0:10:25 > 0:10:26How many councils will there be?
0:10:26 > 0:10:29Take a look into your crystal ball, Marlene.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31- Ten?- Ten, maybe a dozen.
0:10:31 > 0:10:37- When do you foresee that happening? - The sooner the better, I would say.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39We need to change what is going on.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43You are talking about losing jobs, but jobs will be lost regardless.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46The councils are running out of money.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48I'm aware of that.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52But I think it's important the electorate understands
0:10:52 > 0:10:54the situation.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58I think what is needed more than anything is finality.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01Without that, councils cannot go out and recruit.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04And that is what Labour has in mind - agree on a plan
0:11:04 > 0:11:09for the manifesto in 2016 that will state clearly the set-up in Wales.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13- I think that is important. - We must move on. Thank you for now.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17Next, it has been a tough time for the Natural Resources Minister.
0:11:17 > 0:11:22The opposition parties in the Assembly are furious that
0:11:22 > 0:11:26Alun Davies has kept his job in Carwyn Jones' cabinet,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29despite a report concluding that he broke the ministerial
0:11:29 > 0:11:32code of conduct in writing to Natural Resources Wales,
0:11:32 > 0:11:36lobbying for a project to build a racetrack in his constituency.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39Once again in the Chamber this afternoon,
0:11:39 > 0:11:44the First Minister defended his decision not to sack Alun Davies.
0:11:44 > 0:11:49It's important, as the code says,
0:11:49 > 0:11:54that ministers are careful as regards how
0:11:54 > 0:11:59they present themselves and I think the member for Blaenau Gwent,
0:11:59 > 0:12:01as that is what he was in this report,
0:12:01 > 0:12:08could have made things far clearer as regards how he was contacting
0:12:08 > 0:12:12NRW, but in saying that, in my opinion, he has not gone too far.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15First Minister Carwyn Jones.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Simon Thomas, you raised this once again in the Chamber today.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21You are clearly furious and you're not going to let it go.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24Not at all. Next week, we will raise a debate
0:12:24 > 0:12:27and vote in the Assembly regarding this matter.
0:12:27 > 0:12:28Not so much on Alun Davies himself,
0:12:28 > 0:12:32hut the way the First Minister has administered the ministerial
0:12:32 > 0:12:36code, which is supposed to stop this kind of misbehaviour by ministers.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40And of course, I'm furious, but I would think Leighton Andrews
0:12:40 > 0:12:46is even more furious because he lost his job for maybe less.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50He was involved in something in his constituency, but this is
0:12:50 > 0:12:53an independent body directly accountable to the minister.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Explain, Vaughan, the difference between the Leighton Andrews
0:12:57 > 0:13:00and Alun Davies situations.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04Well, Simon's point is correct - that it is part of Alun Davies'
0:13:04 > 0:13:09portfolio, but the difference with Leighton Andrews is that he...
0:13:09 > 0:13:13Not so much the protest against changes to hospitals,
0:13:13 > 0:13:16but he was photographed outside a school where protests
0:13:16 > 0:13:19were taking place against closing the school
0:13:19 > 0:13:21and that decision could have arrived on his desk,
0:13:21 > 0:13:26as the Education Minister, the minister who decides.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29But I must say, I was listening to Carwyn Jones today
0:13:29 > 0:13:32and the argument was almost theological.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35It was the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38That he was writing as a member rather than a minister.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41Well, how does a body like Natural Resources Wales forget
0:13:41 > 0:13:45the fact that the person is writing to them as an AM,
0:13:45 > 0:13:49but is also the minister to who they are accountable?
0:13:49 > 0:13:53Especially when he is writing to them as an AM, reminding them
0:13:53 > 0:13:57of their remit, for which he is the minister responsible.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00- It's very odd.- But Carwyn Jones is not going to back down.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03No, I don't see why he should.
0:14:03 > 0:14:08Alun Davies has apologised for failing to make it clear
0:14:08 > 0:14:12he was acting as an AM and not as a minister.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14It's important for us
0:14:14 > 0:14:18to remember he is not the minister responsible for planning.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22But he has broken the ministerial code of conduct.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26And if a Conservative minister at Westminster had done so,
0:14:26 > 0:14:30- the Labour Party would... - Maria Miller.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33Well... But saying that,
0:14:33 > 0:14:37David Cameron was very keen to keep hold of Maria Miller and that is
0:14:37 > 0:14:42why, it is the same situation at Westminster and Cardiff Bay...
0:14:42 > 0:14:47It is the decision of the Prime Minister or First Minister.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49There is a slight difference.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53Carwyn Jones, fair play to him, asked for an inquiry,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56but he didn't have to do that.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59At Westminster and in Scotland, that is a requirement,
0:14:59 > 0:15:03to bring in that independent element.
0:15:03 > 0:15:05So in one sense...
0:15:05 > 0:15:07I remember Rhodri Morgan deciding
0:15:07 > 0:15:11whether he himself had broken the ministerial code of conduct.
0:15:11 > 0:15:17So there is something isn't quite right about the system in Cardiff.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20I think Labour people would maybe agree with that.
0:15:20 > 0:15:24I think Carwyn should be praised for asking for an independent decision.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27But he doesn't have to. The others do.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31Well, that is maybe something that needs to be looked at.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35But again, in local government we have the public service
0:15:35 > 0:15:38ombudsman and that is not an effective body, to be honest.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42Breaches occur and it takes months to go through the process.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45Marlene, would you argue that a new code is required?
0:15:45 > 0:15:47A more independent element?
0:15:47 > 0:15:51Yes, I think it needs to be more independent.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53Then you know what you must do.
0:15:53 > 0:15:58He has broken the code, so something needs to be done.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00I think what surprises people is...
0:16:00 > 0:16:03We are holding a debate next week on the independence
0:16:03 > 0:16:06required in such a code.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09But what is surprising is that someone breaks the code, that is
0:16:09 > 0:16:14acknowledged by the First Minister, but there is no penalty whatsoever.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17Sacking is not the only option. Vince Cable broke the code...
0:16:17 > 0:16:20If this happened within Plaid Cymru, what would happen?
0:16:20 > 0:16:22Well, it happened to a Plaid Cymru minister
0:16:22 > 0:16:26and he was forced to resign. So it does happen.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29Every time it has happened within Plaid Cymru, during the short
0:16:29 > 0:16:33time we have been in government, it has been dealt with appropriately.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35There has not been a penalty in public,
0:16:35 > 0:16:38but we don't know what has been said behind closed doors.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41No, but we can guess!
0:16:41 > 0:16:44It's clear that Carwyn Jones is not very happy.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47I would think he has given him a pretty serious tongue-lashing,
0:16:47 > 0:16:49at the very least.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52It seems he will survive for the time being, Vaughan,
0:16:52 > 0:16:55but will he survive a cabinet reshuffle?
0:16:55 > 0:16:58There will certainly be a reshuffle before the next election,
0:16:58 > 0:17:01I would suggest this autumn. I have a feeling...
0:17:01 > 0:17:05Alun Davies does not have a huge base within the Labour group,
0:17:05 > 0:17:08so I think Carwyn Jones will be watching him
0:17:08 > 0:17:15- very carefully over the coming weeks...- The Llanelwedd Show?
0:17:15 > 0:17:20If there is a slip or if anything goes wrong at the Show, I think
0:17:20 > 0:17:22his future would be fragile.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26He may not have been punished, but he is on probation.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29- We will see.- We will see. Thank you for now.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31Well, the sun is shining.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35Everyone is reaching for the flip-flops and the sun cream,
0:17:35 > 0:17:38but how many people will be visiting Wales over the summer?
0:17:38 > 0:17:41Committees at Westminster and in Cardiff discussed tourism this week.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45How effective is the body which is meant to sell
0:17:45 > 0:17:47Wales to the world, Visit Wales?
0:17:47 > 0:17:49Carl Roberts reports.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56On days like today, where better than Wales as a holiday destination?
0:17:56 > 0:17:59Ian Griffiths is preparing for a busy
0:17:59 > 0:18:03and sunny weekend at his campsite near St David's.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06The weather helps attract tourists, but there is a feeling that the
0:18:06 > 0:18:14welcome offered to visitors does not receive enough worldwide publicity.
0:18:14 > 0:18:19It is very important to concentrate on marketing,
0:18:19 > 0:18:26especially in emerging economies, Brasil and maybe China and Japan.
0:18:26 > 0:18:33In particular with Wales, we have so many new things.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36Things like Zipworld in North Wales.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40St David's Cathedral is four miles from Ian's campsite.
0:18:40 > 0:18:45Tourists flock here in their thousands every year.
0:18:45 > 0:18:52In 2006, the tourist board spent £50 million on marketing tourism
0:18:52 > 0:18:54here in Wales. But last year, Visit Wales,
0:18:54 > 0:18:59the body that succeeded the tourist board, had a budget of £7 million.
0:18:59 > 0:19:04During the same period, Visit Scotland spent over £47 million,
0:19:04 > 0:19:09Tourism Ireland spent over £36 million.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14The fall in the total spent on marketing since 2006 has
0:19:14 > 0:19:17corresponded with a fall in the number of overseas visitors.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20And that was one of the conclusions at Westminster yesterday,
0:19:20 > 0:19:24as the Welsh Affairs Select Committee questioned
0:19:24 > 0:19:27representatives from Visit Britain as part of their inquiry
0:19:27 > 0:19:30into how Wales is represented and promoted overseas.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32My understanding is that the Government
0:19:32 > 0:19:36and the minister decided to order Visit Wales not to give evidence.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38The question arises - why?
0:19:38 > 0:19:41If they are not confident about the work they are doing, questions
0:19:41 > 0:19:43must be asked as to whether they're trying to hide something.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46My feeling is that the performance of Visit Wales is
0:19:46 > 0:19:48so disappointing, the Welsh Government
0:19:48 > 0:19:50and the body are too afraid to put forward evidence.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54A spokesperson on behalf of the Welsh Government said that
0:19:54 > 0:19:58Visit Wales provided written evidence to the committee.
0:19:58 > 0:20:03A year ago, the Welsh Government launched its tourism strategy,
0:20:03 > 0:20:06targeting visitors from Ireland, the US and Germany.
0:20:06 > 0:20:11The Welsh Government claims that strategy has already borne fruit.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14The latest figures show that there has been
0:20:14 > 0:20:18an increase in the number of visitors from overseas last year.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22That follows a new Visit Wales marketing strategy.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25The strategy included this advert.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29Cerys Matthews's version of a traditional Welsh tune was
0:20:29 > 0:20:31used on the advert.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34The message - there's nowhere quite like Wales.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46Quite right. Vaughan, a little history to begin with.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49It is Visit Wales now,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52but the previous tourist board was more independent.
0:20:52 > 0:20:57The tourist board was one of Wales' oldest Quangos,
0:20:57 > 0:21:01stretching back to the 1960s,
0:21:01 > 0:21:05but it is important to remember that up until the 1980s,
0:21:05 > 0:21:08it had just one purpose - to market Wales within Great Britain.
0:21:08 > 0:21:14In the 1980s, a private measure gave the board the right to market
0:21:14 > 0:21:19Wales overseas, but part of that responsibility remains with
0:21:19 > 0:21:21the British Tourism Authority.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26The truth is that with the income and budget Visit Wales has, with the
0:21:26 > 0:21:30exception of the odd overseas market - Ireland and Holland,
0:21:30 > 0:21:33traditionally - most of the marketing in the big
0:21:33 > 0:21:36countries such, such as the US, Brasil
0:21:36 > 0:21:39and China were mentioned in the report,
0:21:39 > 0:21:42that must really be done by the British body,
0:21:42 > 0:21:46as it is so expensive to market and advertise there.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48Simon Thomas, is Visit Wales succeeding?
0:21:48 > 0:21:52Well, they are not failing. That is true.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55But we need to raise our game, there is no doubt about that.
0:21:55 > 0:21:59The problem with going through Visit Britain
0:21:59 > 0:22:03and so on is that London is such a huge tourist attraction.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06People may go to Edinburgh, but they do not head west,
0:22:06 > 0:22:09and certainly not further west than Cardiff.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12So, there continues to be a huge job in marketing Wales.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15Not just internationally, but also within Britain.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19I think we are continuing to fail with that too.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22As someone who lives in Aberystwyth, I would like to see...
0:22:22 > 0:22:26I am aware how quiet Aberystwyth is once the students leave.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29We are looking for the tourists now, but it all depends so much on
0:22:29 > 0:22:34the weather rather than attractions and that is a problem in Wales.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38Huw, is the brand right, the way that we sell Wales overseas?
0:22:38 > 0:22:40I think it is, to be honest.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43I'm no marketing expert, but as the film showed, I think
0:22:43 > 0:22:46we have so much to offer in Wales.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50I think that Visit Wales do a good job, to be honest.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52If you look at the tourism figures,
0:22:52 > 0:22:56they have increased year on year, as regards spending, since 2005.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59But Visit Britain is the weakness.
0:22:59 > 0:23:05Visit Britain gave evidence at Westminster this week.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08They said, "We are dong the work, not Visit Wales."
0:23:08 > 0:23:11I would disagree with that, to be honest.
0:23:11 > 0:23:16Visit Wales targets the English market and does well.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20As Simon said, Visit Britain is targeting London
0:23:20 > 0:23:23for the figures and is not pushing people out towards the outskirts.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27But until the money is there, Marlene, Wales is spending
0:23:27 > 0:23:29so much less than Scotland, will things change?
0:23:29 > 0:23:32You have to look at the fact - how do you enter Wales?
0:23:32 > 0:23:37On the Severn Bridge. What happens on weekends? There are huge queues.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40- How else do you arrive? Flying? - Don't forget North Wales.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43Maybe the A55 is better than the M4.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47But flying into Wales - we need to improve that too.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51You want tourists to come here, to return, or to recommend Wales,
0:23:51 > 0:23:55not say they had a disaster because they couldn't land in Cardiff.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58And I'm sure that is exactly why Carwyn Jones took
0:23:58 > 0:24:02Cardiff Airport into public ownership.
0:24:02 > 0:24:03That works.
0:24:03 > 0:24:08All I will say is if the attractions are good enough and unique
0:24:08 > 0:24:14enough, they will have the publicity without spending a penny.
0:24:14 > 0:24:18If you look at the Snowdonia railway, for example...
0:24:18 > 0:24:20It does not really need marketing
0:24:20 > 0:24:24because they make their own publicity.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26And so, maybe more imagination is needed,
0:24:26 > 0:24:28as regards what we are offering,
0:24:28 > 0:24:31rather than marketing something similar to what is
0:24:31 > 0:24:33available in Cornwall or Scotland.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37Yes, everyone stay in Wales for their holidays.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40Thank you for joining us. And that's all for tonight.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42There is no programme next week.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44Vaughan and I will return in a fortnight with the final
0:24:44 > 0:24:46programme of the political term.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49Until then, thank you for joining us. Good night.