0:00:00 > 0:00:01The freedom of the press.
0:00:01 > 0:00:04The concern over Islamic fundamentalism.
0:00:04 > 0:00:07Has the Westminster Government's green credentials withered?
0:00:07 > 0:00:09Plenty to discuss on Y Sgwrs.
0:00:19 > 0:00:20Welcome.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24Joining us tonight weather presenter and columnist Sian Lloyd,
0:00:24 > 0:00:27Conservative AM Paul Davies,
0:00:27 > 0:00:32and the former head of BBC Wales news Gwilym Owen joins us from Bangor.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Welcome to all three of you.
0:00:34 > 0:00:35Coming up tonight,
0:00:35 > 0:00:39we'll discuss the concerns about Islamic fundamentalism in Cardiff
0:00:39 > 0:00:43after two young men from the city appeared in a video
0:00:43 > 0:00:46to encourage more people to fight in Syria and Iraq.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Also, what is the connection between these dogs
0:00:49 > 0:00:52and the Westminster Government's green agenda?
0:00:52 > 0:00:54You'll get the answer before the end of the programme.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56But first tonight,
0:00:56 > 0:01:00David Cameron was under pressure in the Commons this afternoon
0:01:00 > 0:01:04as he faced questions as a result of the phone hacking scandal.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Yesterday, a jury at the Old Bailey decided
0:01:06 > 0:01:09his former media consultant, Andy Coulson,
0:01:09 > 0:01:11was guilty of conspiring to hack phones
0:01:11 > 0:01:14when he was editor of the News of the Word.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18I take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21I did so on the basis of assurances that I received,
0:01:21 > 0:01:23but also the Select Committee received.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27But I always said, if those assurances turned out to be wrong,
0:01:27 > 0:01:29I would apologise fully and frankly
0:01:29 > 0:01:31to this House of Commons.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34I do so again today from this despatch box.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37And the truth about this is the charge against the Prime Minister
0:01:37 > 0:01:41is not one of ignorance, it is one of wilful negligence.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45At the heart of this scandal are thousands of innocent victims
0:01:45 > 0:01:48of phone hacking he didn't stand up for.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50The Prime Minister will always be remembered
0:01:50 > 0:01:53as being the first ever occupant of his office
0:01:53 > 0:01:56who brought a criminal into the heart of Downing Street.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02It was a heated session, to say the least, Paul Davies.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04Where does this leave us?
0:02:04 > 0:02:09David Cameron says he gave Andy Coulson a second chance,
0:02:09 > 0:02:12but a second chance for someone who had resigned from a company
0:02:12 > 0:02:15whose reputation was in pieces.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19Where does that leave David Cameron's credibility
0:02:19 > 0:02:20when it comes to hiring staff?
0:02:20 > 0:02:23To be fair to David Cameron,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26I believe he made it clear months ago
0:02:26 > 0:02:31that he would apologise if Andy Coulson was found guilty.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35We have now found out that Andy Coulson is guilty.
0:02:35 > 0:02:40The horse has bolted. It's easy to say that once it's happened.
0:02:40 > 0:02:45We've since heard the PM received a number of warnings
0:02:45 > 0:02:48but appears to have ignored them.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52It's easy for us all now to look back.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56David Cameron has made it clear
0:02:56 > 0:03:00that he made a mistake when he employed Andy Coulson.
0:03:00 > 0:03:01That is why he has apologised.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05He apologised yesterday and to the House of Commons today.
0:03:05 > 0:03:10I believe the situation is clear when it comes to his situation.
0:03:10 > 0:03:15Gwilym Owen, Ed Miliband said today that a criminal
0:03:15 > 0:03:18had entered No10 Downing Street.
0:03:18 > 0:03:23He said this Government had been tainted by the hacking scandal.
0:03:23 > 0:03:28Do you believe this is a short term problem for the PM
0:03:28 > 0:03:32or is it something that will affect his leadership for a long time?
0:03:32 > 0:03:36I don't believe it will be a long-term problem.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40It was a storm, and a great drama, in the House today.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43The MPs on both sides had fun with it.
0:03:43 > 0:03:49It almost caused as much of a storm as Suarez down in Brazil.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51But nobody bit anyone.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55They did everything but bite each other.
0:03:55 > 0:03:59I don't think the effect of what happened...
0:03:59 > 0:04:02This has been a long and costly storm.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05But I doubt it will add up to much.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09Within six months, everything, remembering it's an election year,
0:04:09 > 0:04:16Cameron, Miliband and everyone else will face more important things
0:04:16 > 0:04:18over the next year.
0:04:18 > 0:04:24Andy Coulson's background contrasts with the Prime Minister's.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27He comes from a council house, a comprehensive school
0:04:27 > 0:04:30while Cameron went to Eton.
0:04:30 > 0:04:31Essex boy.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35Can you see why he was at such pains to get Andy Coulson
0:04:35 > 0:04:40to bridge the gap between the PM and working class Conservative voters?
0:04:40 > 0:04:43It was a good appointment.
0:04:43 > 0:04:48But I feel if he had employed a Welsh-speaking boy from Cardiff
0:04:48 > 0:04:52by the name of Guto Harri, we wouldn't have this trouble now.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54But it was a good appointment.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56He is cleaning up the mess now.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00It comes down to the fact
0:05:00 > 0:05:04that the Conservatives, excuse me, aren't always in touch.
0:05:04 > 0:05:09Also, he was incredibly good at his job.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12Had this not come to light,
0:05:12 > 0:05:15the appointment would have been fantastic.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19Both sides needed to be connected.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22Where does this leave us with regards to managing the press?
0:05:22 > 0:05:25We have the Royal Charter on one hand.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28We then have the newspaper heads
0:05:28 > 0:05:31who want to manage the press in another way.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33It's still a mess, isn't it?
0:05:33 > 0:05:38You have a difference of opinion, depending on who you speak to
0:05:38 > 0:05:40regarding this issue.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43I believe we must look at this
0:05:43 > 0:05:48and decide on the best way forward.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51I'm a bit nervous, I must admit,
0:05:51 > 0:05:57that we may legislate in the future on the press.
0:05:57 > 0:06:02I believe we have an important principle here in Wales and the UK
0:06:02 > 0:06:05regarding a free press.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07We must make sure that continues.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11One thing no regulator can do
0:06:11 > 0:06:14is to make sure law breaking doesn't take place.
0:06:14 > 0:06:19That is entirely possible, of course.
0:06:19 > 0:06:25After all, I don't want to protect Rupert Murdoch's empire.
0:06:25 > 0:06:27That is the last thing I'd wish to do.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31But in the long term, as this case has proved,
0:06:31 > 0:06:35a very small group of Murdoch's workers
0:06:35 > 0:06:37were responsible for what happened.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40The rest have been found not guilty.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42Only one has so far been found guilty.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44Another five have pleaded guilty.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47In such a large industry,
0:06:47 > 0:06:51I wonder if we've made too much of a storm out of it
0:06:51 > 0:06:54and paid so much money
0:06:54 > 0:06:57on getting politicians out of a hole.
0:06:57 > 0:07:00In the end, this comes back to the fact
0:07:00 > 0:07:03that politicians of every party over the years
0:07:03 > 0:07:08have courted and looked after their relationship with Murdoch's empire.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11They placed themselves in an impossible situation.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13While Murdoch's empire continues...
0:07:13 > 0:07:20Even Alex Salmond in Scotland has been caught in Murdoch's net
0:07:20 > 0:07:23during the last year or so.
0:07:23 > 0:07:25It isn't healthy.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29The politicians are as much at fault as the journalists.
0:07:29 > 0:07:34On that point, is there going to be a change
0:07:34 > 0:07:39in the relationship between people like Rupert Murdoch and his ilk
0:07:39 > 0:07:40and politicians?
0:07:40 > 0:07:46We've seen Blair, Brown, Cameron trying to attract this man.
0:07:46 > 0:07:51Is it a lesson for politicians and newspaper owners
0:07:51 > 0:07:53to keep their distance from one another?
0:07:53 > 0:07:56I agreed entirely with Gwilym.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59The most frightening thing that came out of the whole thing
0:07:59 > 0:08:03was the fact that the corridors of power,
0:08:03 > 0:08:08the British establishment, was just as powerful as ever.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12For me, the crawling done by the politicians,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16as well as the police...
0:08:16 > 0:08:19You have members of the Government, the police
0:08:19 > 0:08:22and the media getting closer,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25eating together, having cocktails together,
0:08:25 > 0:08:27going riding with each other.
0:08:27 > 0:08:32One former PM is the godfather to one of Rupert Murdoch's sons.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34The whole situation is frightening.
0:08:34 > 0:08:39The journalists should be doing exactly the opposite to this.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43Can I ask you, as you're the closest thing on this panel to a celeb...
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Famous people need the press and the media.
0:08:48 > 0:08:55The media and press need famous people to sell papers or stories.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59Does that relationship also need to change?
0:08:59 > 0:09:03It's isn't as unhealthy as the relationship
0:09:03 > 0:09:05members of the Government have with the media,
0:09:05 > 0:09:07especially Murdoch's companies.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10Nothing could be that bad.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13It is so superficial.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17Personally, I'm not comfortable with Hacked Off.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20People who've dropped their trousers are in charge of Hacked Off.
0:09:20 > 0:09:25Those aren't the kind of people I want to represent me
0:09:25 > 0:09:30or anyone else who may have complaints about the press.
0:09:30 > 0:09:36I believe we must ask questions of Murdoch and the company
0:09:36 > 0:09:37but also of the police.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40This co-conspiring with the police...
0:09:40 > 0:09:45They had, back in 2006, they had something like 11,000 pages
0:09:45 > 0:09:49of evidence about this hacking.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52The cases are continuing. We must move on.
0:09:52 > 0:09:53Next tonight,
0:09:53 > 0:09:57the situation in Iraq has intensified in recent weeks.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01It has come to light that three young men from Cardiff
0:10:01 > 0:10:05have joined ISIS rebels who are fighting there and in Syria.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07The development has raised concerns
0:10:07 > 0:10:11about the radicalisation of young Muslims in the capital city.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14One person with a connection to the Muslim community in Cardiff
0:10:14 > 0:10:18is Reverend Aled Edwards from Wales' inter-faith council.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20Here is his reaction to the situation.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26We are here on the outskirts of Butetown,
0:10:26 > 0:10:29one of the largest Muslim areas in Cardiff.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33This community would say it's been here for more than a century
0:10:33 > 0:10:37and that it is a peaceful community which is part of Welsh life.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41They would say that what is happening concerning jihad here
0:10:41 > 0:10:46is foreign to them, their mosques and their families and community.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Speaking to friends from this area in recent days,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52they have expressed disappointment about what has happened.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56They do not understand it and it baffles them.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58Their mosques have condemned the jihadists,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01as has the community and its families.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05They are also concerned about their families and communities,
0:11:05 > 0:11:07and that they are being misrepresented.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11The question for us all is,
0:11:11 > 0:11:15how do we challenge radicalism among the small minorities
0:11:15 > 0:11:17that can be found in places like Cardiff?
0:11:17 > 0:11:20The Muslim community says it has been talked about a lot
0:11:20 > 0:11:22but it hasn't been listened to much.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Perhaps we would gain more if we listened carefully
0:11:25 > 0:11:27and understood these are complicated problems
0:11:27 > 0:11:30and that we must stand side by side with this community
0:11:30 > 0:11:32instead of condemning it.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37I believe we have important political decisions to take.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40We could follow some negative instincts
0:11:40 > 0:11:44to isolate this community and to grow distant from it and fear it.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Or we could take hold of much better images
0:11:47 > 0:11:50which are inclusive, warm
0:11:50 > 0:11:53and show a kind of Wales where we are all equal
0:11:53 > 0:11:55and have the right to be Welsh
0:11:55 > 0:11:58in a new society with a better understanding of itself.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02The situation from Aled Edwards' perspective.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05The leader of your party has called for a conference
0:12:05 > 0:12:09where all the agencies can come together to discuss this situation.
0:12:09 > 0:12:13Is that a sign that you, as a party,
0:12:13 > 0:12:17believe things should be done that aren't currently being done?
0:12:17 > 0:12:22It's important that we all work together
0:12:22 > 0:12:27and stand firm against this hatred that we have seen.
0:12:27 > 0:12:33We have a very good tradition in Wales and across Britain
0:12:33 > 0:12:37of being a tolerant society. It's important that this continues.
0:12:37 > 0:12:42We've embraced all sorts of religions and that's very important.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46But what is important, I think, in response to what's happened
0:12:46 > 0:12:52in the last week, is that the response is being led
0:12:52 > 0:12:54by the communities.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57But we all have to cooperate with each other to make sure
0:12:57 > 0:13:02that happens and that we support these communities now.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04That's why I think my leader has called for
0:13:04 > 0:13:08some kind of summit to discuss these matters
0:13:08 > 0:13:13and to make sure we raise awareness about this.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Gwilym Owen, is there somebody somewhere who's
0:13:16 > 0:13:18failing these young people?
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Are they disillusioned?
0:13:20 > 0:13:22Do they feel that they've been lost in the system?
0:13:22 > 0:13:26They feel there's no hope, be that a lack of jobs
0:13:26 > 0:13:30or is a matter where their community has to take more responsibility
0:13:30 > 0:13:32for them?
0:13:32 > 0:13:35I'm not very close to the situation any more.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37after living in Cardiff for years.
0:13:37 > 0:13:42I've always felt, just as Paul Davies and Aled Edwards said,
0:13:42 > 0:13:44that the community in Cardiff
0:13:44 > 0:13:48was a happy an international community.
0:13:48 > 0:13:52There were no bad feelings. Cardiff didn't have a bad name...
0:13:52 > 0:13:55But this isn't the first case where people from Cardiff
0:13:55 > 0:13:58have been radicalised?
0:13:58 > 0:14:01No. But I do think that we here...
0:14:01 > 0:14:05I liked the way Alun Michael, the Police Commissioner,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08was talking the other day about this problem.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12It was exactly what Aled Edwards and Paul Davies said.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16It's the community itself and through the community itself
0:14:16 > 0:14:18that this problem should be faced.
0:14:18 > 0:14:24Radicalisation... Fundamentalism in any religion is dangerous.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Once such fundamentalism like that takes hold
0:14:27 > 0:14:32and you have powerful people coming to Cardiff and its mosques
0:14:32 > 0:14:35to pray... But it's nothing new in Wales.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40A century ago the Calvinist Methodists were radicalising
0:14:40 > 0:14:43young boys by their thousands here in Wales,
0:14:43 > 0:14:47and turning them out to fight in a war they knew nothing about.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50People like Dr John Williams, Brynsiencyn and his type.
0:14:50 > 0:14:56Dozens of Welsh people like Tom Jones, Shotton
0:14:56 > 0:14:58went to fight in the war in Spain.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01This isn't anything new.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04Is this happening because there is a feeling these young people
0:15:04 > 0:15:06feel lost in community?
0:15:06 > 0:15:10I think it's up to that community in Cardiff to face up to that.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12I don't know enough about the problem locally
0:15:12 > 0:15:14to make an opinion.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17But it's very sad that something like this is taking place
0:15:17 > 0:15:22but I think this problem should be faced within the community.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26Sian, do you think that the West has wronged these people
0:15:26 > 0:15:29through the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
0:15:29 > 0:15:33In the same way Britain and America thought
0:15:33 > 0:15:36the wars were justified, these people obviously think
0:15:36 > 0:15:39- their own wars are justified? - Of course they do.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42It would be helpful if Tony Blair shut his mouth.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46As soon as he says anything, the tension mounts.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49It's no wonder that someone recently called him
0:15:49 > 0:15:52the terrorist's best friend.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55I think he should resign.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57What kind of authority do we have,
0:15:57 > 0:16:00especially a moral authority, in this country
0:16:00 > 0:16:03after Blair and the Neocons, and his best friend, Bush,
0:16:03 > 0:16:06destroyed Iraq?
0:16:06 > 0:16:10How much faith is in our good name now?
0:16:10 > 0:16:12It's all a farce.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16I think that increased the sense of us and them.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19They feel like the "them".
0:16:19 > 0:16:23Is that enough to justify these people's actions?
0:16:23 > 0:16:24Of course not.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28But think about it, only a small majority of people do this.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31I don't think Cardiff is worse than anywhere else in Britain.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35No worse than Manchester, Birmingham or Leicester or wherever.
0:16:35 > 0:16:40According to the figures, there are five from Wales in Syria.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42But I don't really believe these figures.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45Cameron has been speaking this week.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48MI6 has been speaking, the police has been speaking.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52But I don't buy into this danger in the same way...
0:16:52 > 0:16:53I think there is an agenda here.
0:16:53 > 0:16:59There's politics here which is scaring people
0:16:59 > 0:17:02exactly like the 45 minutes of those dodgy dossiers.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05We have to move on. That's dangerous ground!
0:17:05 > 0:17:10There's been a serious reduction in the Westminster government's emphasis
0:17:10 > 0:17:14on the environment, according to Friends of the Earth Cymru.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16According to the organisation's director,
0:17:16 > 0:17:20Prime Minister David Cameron has turned his back on green issues
0:17:20 > 0:17:22in order to concentrate on the economy.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26So, how green is the politicians' agenda?
0:17:26 > 0:17:29A question for Janet Ebenezer.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34His government would be the greenest ever government.
0:17:34 > 0:17:39That was David Cameron's promise and vision back in 2010.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43Who can forget the amazing pictures of him on the back of a slay
0:17:43 > 0:17:47in Norway at the start of his career as Tory leader.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51Was it a suggestion to Hug a Husky?
0:17:51 > 0:17:55It was a clear picture of the coalition's promise to green issues.
0:17:55 > 0:18:00Within days of creating his brand-new cabinet in 2010,
0:18:00 > 0:18:01this is what he said.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04I want us to be the greenest government ever.
0:18:04 > 0:18:09A very simple ambition and one I'm committed to achieving.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12But a year later at the party's conference
0:18:12 > 0:18:14was the green colour fading?
0:18:14 > 0:18:18Britain makes up less than 2% of the world's carbon emissions
0:18:18 > 0:18:21to China and America's 40%.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23We're not going to save the planet
0:18:23 > 0:18:25by putting our country out of business.
0:18:25 > 0:18:27We're going to cut our carbon emissions,
0:18:27 > 0:18:32no slower but also no faster than our fellow countries in Europe.
0:18:32 > 0:18:36That's what I've insisted on in the recent carbon budget.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39Although there were measures to charge for plastic bags
0:18:39 > 0:18:43and another to make sure that new homes were carbon-free,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46the main message of this year's Queen Speech
0:18:46 > 0:18:48was to have a stronger economy.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51There was a lot of rhetoric before the last election.
0:18:51 > 0:18:56Cameron had said, vote for us and you'll get your green policies.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59But that didn't happen.
0:18:59 > 0:19:04Throughout this parliament, we've seen a huge deterioration
0:19:04 > 0:19:07on the emphasis surrounding the environment.
0:19:07 > 0:19:12Now, it seems that the environment is totally unimportant
0:19:12 > 0:19:14and insignificant.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18Although that Westminster is responsible for green projects
0:19:18 > 0:19:21such as wind turbines and nuclear energy,
0:19:21 > 0:19:24the environment has been devolved.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28This week in London, the Welsh Government was trying to attract
0:19:28 > 0:19:30green businesses to invest in Wales.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34Today, an Assembly committee has heard evidence
0:19:34 > 0:19:38by the Wales Audit Office which questions the government's ability
0:19:38 > 0:19:42to hit its recycling target of 58%
0:19:42 > 0:19:45by 2016.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48Certainly, on the big questions
0:19:48 > 0:19:50Westminster has all the power.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54It is difficult to say whether the government here is green.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57They say they want to attract more jobs
0:19:57 > 0:20:01dealing with the green economy into Wales.
0:20:01 > 0:20:06That definitely suits their economic agenda.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09But when it comes to the big questions
0:20:09 > 0:20:12it's difficult to say how the government in Cardiff Bay
0:20:12 > 0:20:16will face that because they don't have the powers.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20It seems that the Conservative Party has changed its logo again.
0:20:20 > 0:20:24The little green tree has been replaced by a much more
0:20:24 > 0:20:26British symbol, the Union flag.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29Maybe the days of Hug a Husky have long disappeared
0:20:29 > 0:20:34but climate change is more evident than ever.
0:20:34 > 0:20:39Bad weather such as storms and floods are now annual events.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41But with the election on the horizon
0:20:41 > 0:20:45it seems that the Conservatives have decided that promoting the economy,
0:20:45 > 0:20:50creating jobs and cutting income tax are what's important to voters.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Is that fair?
0:20:52 > 0:20:57We'll see unless than a year if you agree or not.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00In a statement a spokesman for the Tories said
0:21:00 > 0:21:04their promise to tackle climate change hadn't changed.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08The party insists that its long-term plan
0:21:08 > 0:21:12for the economy doesn't undermine their efforts to tackle
0:21:12 > 0:21:14global warming. Mush, mush!
0:21:17 > 0:21:20Janet and her new pets!
0:21:20 > 0:21:24Gwilym, are you any good at putting the baked beans tin in the green bin
0:21:24 > 0:21:27and the rest of your caviar in the brown bin?
0:21:27 > 0:21:30Yes, especially the caviar!
0:21:32 > 0:21:35Yes, I do that. Here in Gwynedd, by now...
0:21:38 > 0:21:42..we'll be without a refuse collection for three weeks.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44There'll be an awful stink here.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50No, I think... It's funny you're discussing this tonight,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53according to the information I've had this is one of the first things
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Coulson suggested to David Cameron
0:21:56 > 0:21:58after he joined him in Downing Street.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02He told him to forget the green policy and bury it.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05That was one of Coulson's influences.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09This policy isn't a policy
0:22:09 > 0:22:11that will win him the next election.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16Who can blame him or his party for turning their backs...
0:22:16 > 0:22:19I think this is just nonsense.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21It's talking for talking's sake.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24I don't see us going far with it.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27But I'm old and old-fashioned.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31Paul Davies, what happened to this slogan -
0:22:31 > 0:22:33vote blue, go green?
0:22:33 > 0:22:39David Cameron had a wind turbine on his own roof at one stage.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42That has disappeared along with this promise.
0:22:42 > 0:22:46The green levy is going, promises are just empty words.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50Of course, these policies continue.
0:22:50 > 0:22:54This government is the first in history
0:22:54 > 0:22:56to set up a green investment bank.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59No other government has done that.
0:22:59 > 0:23:04They will invest billions of pounds in this bank
0:23:04 > 0:23:08so that people can set up green businesses
0:23:08 > 0:23:11in order to create green jobs.
0:23:11 > 0:23:16You have to ask the question, are there more solar farm now
0:23:16 > 0:23:19compared to five years ago?
0:23:19 > 0:23:23Is there more research into
0:23:23 > 0:23:26these things, the green policies?
0:23:26 > 0:23:29Yes, there is more research...
0:23:29 > 0:23:33No subsidies for wind energy on land after 2015.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35That's already been announced by your government.
0:23:35 > 0:23:40The reality is there are more solar farms
0:23:40 > 0:23:43compared with five years ago.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47So, these policies are always developing.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51A word with Sian, is there an element of fashion
0:23:51 > 0:23:52belonging to the environment?
0:23:52 > 0:23:55It was fashionable for people to talk about it in 2010.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59Caroline Lucas, the Green candidate was voted in back then.
0:23:59 > 0:24:04By now we've seen the banks crashing, the economy is in trouble.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07There are more important things for people to worry about.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09They aren't separate.
0:24:09 > 0:24:14The CBI has said that we could have £2 billion-worth
0:24:14 > 0:24:18of jobs in Britain through the green economy.
0:24:18 > 0:24:20It is a valid argument.
0:24:20 > 0:24:24Thank goodness that David Cameron did get rid of the green levy
0:24:24 > 0:24:29because that sustained the horrible wind farms.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Fashion hasn't changed but the technology.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35We need new technology such as nuclear fusion
0:24:35 > 0:24:40- and algae and so on...- You've said that like an expert.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42On that point, time has beaten us, sorry.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45That's it for tonight.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49Thank you to my guests for joining me and to you too for watching.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51Y Sgwrs will be back at the same time next week.