0:00:04 > 0:00:07MUSIC: "God's Gonna Cut You Down" by Johnny Cash
0:00:13 > 0:00:17# You can run on for a long time
0:00:17 > 0:00:20# Run on for a long time
0:00:20 > 0:00:23# Run on for a long time
0:00:23 > 0:00:26# Sooner or later God'll cut you down
0:00:26 > 0:00:28# Sooner or later God'll cut you down... #
0:00:28 > 0:00:31ZANE LOWE: To me, Rick Rubin is one of the most important musical
0:00:31 > 0:00:33figures of all time.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35Most people watching this, whether they know it or not,
0:00:35 > 0:00:39have listened to, enjoyed or bought a record crafted by Rick Rubin.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41Jay-Z's 99 Problems, that was Rick Rubin.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44Shakira's Hips Don't Lie, yep, that was Rick too.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Eminem's Berzerk, Kanye's Yeezus,
0:00:47 > 0:00:51Adele, Ed Sheeran - the list goes on and on and on.
0:00:51 > 0:00:52From Run DMC to the Beastie Boys,
0:00:52 > 0:00:55from laying the foundations of hip-hop with his Def Jam label
0:00:55 > 0:00:58to reshaping the world of rock music via Slayer,
0:00:58 > 0:01:00Slipknot and Metallica,
0:01:00 > 0:01:04Rick Rubin's achievements are frankly staggering,
0:01:04 > 0:01:09but there's one thing that Rick Rubin doesn't do much of and that's talk...
0:01:09 > 0:01:11until now.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14In the next hour, you will get an all too rare audience with a man
0:01:14 > 0:01:17who made our musical world what it is.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20No other talking heads, no tours of old neighbourhoods,
0:01:20 > 0:01:21just the man himself,
0:01:22 > 0:01:25sat in the garden of his Shangri-la studios,
0:01:25 > 0:01:27telling it like it is. This is Rick Rubin.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31- So good to see you. - A pleasure, sir.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33Nice one. So let's just start with the immediate location
0:01:33 > 0:01:35cos it's impossible to ignore.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38I mean, we're literally in the garden surrounded by fresh fruit.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41You've got the beach Malibu just down the hill.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43This is just an idyllic location full of history,
0:01:43 > 0:01:46so tell us how you got involved with Shangri-la.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Erm... I moved to the neighbourhood and was looking for a place to work,
0:01:49 > 0:01:52and one of the bands I was working with found it and asked
0:01:52 > 0:01:53if I would come to rehearsal.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56And I came to rehearsal and it was really kind of dingy at the time.
0:01:56 > 0:01:57Yeah.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59And it had fallen into disrepair over the years,
0:01:59 > 0:02:01but it was the closest and most convenient place.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04And, surprisingly, the stuff that came out of here really sounded good.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07We were surprised. We didn't know that it was going to sound
0:02:07 > 0:02:09- as good as it did. - And you saved it, too.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11You were saying someone was going to buy it and tear it down.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13Yeah. It was... The guy decided to sell it.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16I didn't want to... I didn't want to own a studio...
0:02:16 > 0:02:19- Despite such a thriving business(!) - THEY LAUGH
0:02:19 > 0:02:22But... Again, it really was a question of saving it
0:02:22 > 0:02:24because someone was going to tear it down,
0:02:24 > 0:02:26- just build a big house here. - Yeah.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28So, luckily, it gets to... We preserved it.
0:02:28 > 0:02:30Yeah, well, thank you for doing so cos just walking around
0:02:30 > 0:02:32and getting a quick tour of the place is amazing.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34I mean, you were saying that, obviously,
0:02:34 > 0:02:36Bob Dylan's old tour bus at the back there,
0:02:36 > 0:02:38often using that while this is going on.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41You were saying that you did some mixing for Kanye's record in there.
0:02:41 > 0:02:42Yeah, we did.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44You've had such an incredible 12, 18 months.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46Obviously we'll get to your entire life,
0:02:46 > 0:02:48but let's talk about the recent past because
0:02:48 > 0:02:51you've been involved in some fantastic records...
0:02:51 > 0:02:54I just brought up Kanye - let's start with that.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57You've talked quite openly about the reduction of that record,
0:02:57 > 0:03:01about bringing it down to its elements and stripping things away.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04Just give us a little more insight into what it was
0:03:04 > 0:03:06when he brought you into the equation.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10It was... It...
0:03:10 > 0:03:13There were loads of great ideas and there were many, many tracks,
0:03:13 > 0:03:15and we listened to everything together.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17He originally came over and said,
0:03:17 > 0:03:18"I want to come play you my new album."
0:03:18 > 0:03:21I thought we were going to listen to the finished album,
0:03:21 > 0:03:23and then we listened to about three hours of music,
0:03:23 > 0:03:26most of which didn't have vocals. And...
0:03:26 > 0:03:28And at the end of it it's like, "Wow. So what's...?
0:03:28 > 0:03:31"What's it going to be?" I'm thinking it's a year away and he's like,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34"Well, I'm putting it out in..." I think it was like five or six...
0:03:34 > 0:03:37"It's coming out in five or six weeks." Like, "Really?"
0:03:37 > 0:03:40It's like... I said, "I have another album that's a lot further along
0:03:40 > 0:03:43"than this and it's not coming out for probably five months."
0:03:43 > 0:03:44ZANE LAUGHS
0:03:44 > 0:03:46And he's like, "Really?"
0:03:46 > 0:03:49Just a funny conversation cos it was completely normal to him.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51- Yeah. - It's just the way he works.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54- Yeah. - And...
0:03:54 > 0:03:57And then we listened to some music together - other music -
0:03:57 > 0:04:00and at the end of it he said, "Would you...
0:04:00 > 0:04:02"just help me finish it? Let's go in together and..."
0:04:02 > 0:04:05I think he said, "I think we can probably do it in five days."
0:04:05 > 0:04:08It ended up being more like three weeks or a little over three weeks.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10What's your honest impression of him?
0:04:10 > 0:04:12Cos he's very honest about his impressions of everyone
0:04:12 > 0:04:13and everything else.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16I've been privy to that in conversation and I love him.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18I love him, too. I think he's a great guy, super smart.
0:04:18 > 0:04:23And from a creative standpoint,
0:04:23 > 0:04:28I can't think of anyone who's come out...
0:04:28 > 0:04:31who has been more consistently great...
0:04:31 > 0:04:33from the time they started making music until now,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35I can't think of anyone else.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37- Hmm. - I think he's...
0:04:37 > 0:04:40the most consistently great creative person in music today.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42What is the common thread for you with rap music?
0:04:42 > 0:04:45What is the chromosome that you really think is truly
0:04:45 > 0:04:47important for your love of rap music?
0:04:47 > 0:04:49Erm...
0:04:50 > 0:04:51It's very hard...
0:04:51 > 0:04:54I don't know if it can be answered because so much of it
0:04:54 > 0:04:57comes from the unique perspective of that particular artist.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59And...
0:04:59 > 0:05:00I guess it could be...
0:05:03 > 0:05:07..an honesty and a point of view that's particular to that person...
0:05:07 > 0:05:12- That authentic point of view. - ..it feels like it's not just good
0:05:12 > 0:05:14lyrics over good beats.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18It has to be more than good lyrics over good beats.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20- Which Eminem has. - 100%.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22I think he's probably...
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Well, he's certainly the most honest, I think, there's ever been.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29Maybe the best rapper of any MC, he may be the best.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31You have a unique perspective, having spent time
0:05:31 > 0:05:33producing him in the studio.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35I haven't had a chance to meet or talk to Dre about this.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38Other than that, really, it just comes down to Eminem.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40- He does a lot of his own stuff. - Yeah.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42What was that experience like, having him in the booth?
0:05:42 > 0:05:45And what's he like to work with, just purely on a recording level?
0:05:45 > 0:05:49Erm... He's very...
0:05:49 > 0:05:53hyper...critical of detail...
0:05:53 > 0:05:58and hears the music in a very deep way. And hears...
0:05:58 > 0:06:04internal rhythms in tracks and writes words to...
0:06:06 > 0:06:10..to work on so many different levels rhythmically within what's
0:06:10 > 0:06:12going on musically to where...
0:06:13 > 0:06:18If we change a little thing in the track to better the track...
0:06:18 > 0:06:22it might not work in his mind how it relates to what he's saying
0:06:22 > 0:06:24and how he's phrasing.
0:06:24 > 0:06:30His phrasing is so glued to the music and written that way, like,
0:06:30 > 0:06:32he just sees it as...
0:06:34 > 0:06:38..not just riding the flow - it's much more complex.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40And he's always writing. He's always writing,
0:06:40 > 0:06:43not when he's making an album. He's always writing in life.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46He's got these notebooks he carries around and he's always writing.
0:06:46 > 0:06:51And he said to me he knows...
0:06:51 > 0:06:55probably 99% of it, 98% of it will never be used for anything,
0:06:55 > 0:06:59but he wants his facility...
0:06:59 > 0:07:04to be there, so that when he needs to write something it's like...
0:07:04 > 0:07:07It's like practice. He's just...
0:07:07 > 0:07:10- master-level practice all the time. - He's a rhyme fiend.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13He is. He really is.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15I always think, when you're working with artists,
0:07:15 > 0:07:18and I'm going to speak for them in a way,
0:07:18 > 0:07:20when they get to a place like Shangri-la or
0:07:20 > 0:07:22they get to work with a person like you, with your experience
0:07:22 > 0:07:25and the people that you've worked with and your love of music,
0:07:25 > 0:07:27that...
0:07:27 > 0:07:28they walk in as an excitable fan.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30A lot of producers go the other way. It's true, though.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33I think that that goes from someone like Ed Sheeran,
0:07:33 > 0:07:34who's on his second album, all the way up,
0:07:34 > 0:07:37if I'm honest, to Metallica. And it always makes me laugh
0:07:37 > 0:07:40when I think about you working with someone like Black Sabbath...
0:07:40 > 0:07:43cos I think that's probably the moment when the tables flipped.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45- Yeah. - In a big way.
0:07:45 > 0:07:46In all of them... I'm really fans...
0:07:46 > 0:07:48I'm really a fan of music and, luckily,
0:07:48 > 0:07:51I get to work with these great artists every day,
0:07:51 > 0:07:52pretty much, in the studio.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55I have this feeling of, like, "I can't believe...
0:07:55 > 0:07:59"this person is so talented. I can't believe they're this good.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01"I can't believe it. I can't believe someone can sing this good.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04"I can't believe someone can play this good."
0:08:04 > 0:08:05I guess what I mean is,
0:08:05 > 0:08:07when you get together with Johnny Cash or Black Sabbath,
0:08:07 > 0:08:09you might have a tiny bit of you that goes,
0:08:09 > 0:08:11"I can't believe I'm in the room with..."
0:08:11 > 0:08:14Always. Neil Young, any of these people, you can't believe it.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16You can't believe...
0:08:16 > 0:08:18Some of these people, you get to meet them,
0:08:18 > 0:08:20you can't even believe that they walk the earth.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22You meet Paul McCartney, it's like,
0:08:22 > 0:08:24"That guy is alive walking the earth.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26"He wrote all those songs." It's unbelievable.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28ZANE LAUGHS It's unbelievable.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30- So let's talk about Sabbath... - Yeah.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33..which is a record I am sure you were dying to make your whole life.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35I mean, what an important influence for you.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37I had a meeting with them, probably...
0:08:37 > 0:08:41I would say about 15 years ago, with the whole band,
0:08:41 > 0:08:44and we met at my house in town and talked about making a record.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46And they were very excited to do it at that time.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49And then they started writing together...and...
0:08:49 > 0:08:53And then it just never came together.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57They called one day and it's, like, "Writing's not...
0:08:57 > 0:08:58"It's not really happening."
0:08:58 > 0:09:01And then they all went off and did their own thing.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05And then I was surprised to get a call from them, whenever it was,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08two years ago or something, saying...
0:09:09 > 0:09:11"We think the time is now.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13"We've started doing a little bit of writing.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16"Do you want to do this?" Absolutely. Black Sabbath.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18When you sit down and you get to work with a band like that,
0:09:18 > 0:09:21and you look at all the time that's gone in-between albums,
0:09:21 > 0:09:24how do you approach it different to, say, working with an artist
0:09:24 > 0:09:26that you have a more consistent...
0:09:26 > 0:09:28recording track record with?
0:09:28 > 0:09:31How did you feel about picking up on a band like that
0:09:31 > 0:09:34that gave us some remarkable records, but they were decades ago?
0:09:34 > 0:09:37Yeah. I can't say...
0:09:37 > 0:09:41I can't categorise the more grown-up artists as it works this way
0:09:41 > 0:09:43with them. It really is...
0:09:45 > 0:09:50I spend time with the artist and kind of see where they're at, and...
0:09:52 > 0:09:55..imagine...
0:09:55 > 0:09:59I try to imagine what them at their best is.
0:09:59 > 0:10:00And...
0:10:00 > 0:10:04then try to set up whatever situations
0:10:04 > 0:10:06we can to allow that to happen.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10We really have no control over it happening is the reality.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13It's... It's a frustrating job in many respects because...
0:10:15 > 0:10:19It's like fishing. You can go out fishing but you can't say,
0:10:19 > 0:10:21"I'm going to catch three fish today."
0:10:21 > 0:10:25It's like... We have very little control over this process.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28It's magic, really, what's happening.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30You caught so much fire from that Black Sabbath record. I mean...
0:10:30 > 0:10:33You said you wanted to make it feel like you picked up from where
0:10:33 > 0:10:35- they left off. - Yeah, that was the goal.
0:10:35 > 0:10:36That was the goal.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39You did it. I mean, that has to be in them to do.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42They have to be ready to go into a room like that.
0:10:42 > 0:10:44- 100%. - What happens when...?
0:10:44 > 0:10:46A lot of the job is the expect...
0:10:46 > 0:10:53It's like setting up an expectation that we really can make
0:10:53 > 0:10:56a great Black Sabbath record that stands alongside their best work.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59I can remember having a conversation with Johnny Cash, saying,
0:10:59 > 0:11:02"We're going to make the best album you've ever made."
0:11:02 > 0:11:06He looked at me like I was insane. "How can you even think that way?"
0:11:06 > 0:11:09He felt like he hadn't made a good record in, probably, 25 years
0:11:09 > 0:11:11and had been discarded.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14At the time that I met him he was playing at dinner theatres,
0:11:14 > 0:11:17and had been dropped from two labels and...
0:11:17 > 0:11:19Nobody cared.
0:11:19 > 0:11:20So the idea of...
0:11:21 > 0:11:22..shifting that...
0:11:24 > 0:11:30..reframing the experience to not just,
0:11:30 > 0:11:32"Well, let's just do an album.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36"Let's do whatever it takes for it to be the best album you've ever made.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38"What would that sound like? How would that work?
0:11:38 > 0:11:40"How much work would go into it?
0:11:40 > 0:11:41"Are you willing to commit to that?"
0:11:41 > 0:11:43- Yeah. - Erm...
0:11:43 > 0:11:46Cos it's not easy and some artists don't like it.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49I've worked with some artists where it hasn't worked out,
0:11:49 > 0:11:50where they just are not willing to do the work.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52I wondered because...
0:11:52 > 0:11:54I could tell from spending time with you this morning
0:11:54 > 0:11:57and listening to the music how much you invest of your heart
0:11:57 > 0:11:58and your soul into the project to try
0:11:58 > 0:12:01and make it work as best as possible for the artist...
0:12:01 > 0:12:02- Absolutely. - And I can only imagine,
0:12:02 > 0:12:05with that amount of commitment comes an equal amount of heartbreak
0:12:05 > 0:12:07- when it doesn't pan out. - Absolutely.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09And it... But it really is like...
0:12:10 > 0:12:13It all stems from the relationship with the artist,
0:12:13 > 0:12:17and finding that place where...
0:12:17 > 0:12:22together we're working to make this thing, this unbelievable thing,
0:12:22 > 0:12:26and there are no limitations that we put in the way of that happening.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28You've quite rightly said that it's...
0:12:28 > 0:12:31It's very different for every artist and that's why each record is
0:12:31 > 0:12:32- so different and so great. - 100%.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34But you talked about getting to know the artist
0:12:34 > 0:12:37and getting the relationship moving with the artist to get them
0:12:37 > 0:12:39to the place where they've got the confidence
0:12:39 > 0:12:42and they feel trust in the process. Erm...
0:12:42 > 0:12:44Does it get personal? I know with Johnny, I mean,
0:12:44 > 0:12:46it sounds like you guys obviously struck up
0:12:46 > 0:12:47an incredibly important friendship.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49I'm sure it started with those conversations.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52Absolutely. And it often gets very personal - it doesn't always -
0:12:52 > 0:12:56but it often gets very personal...and we end up being very close.
0:12:56 > 0:12:58- Yeah. - The goal is to create...
0:12:59 > 0:13:04..a setting when artists can be completely vulnerable
0:13:04 > 0:13:05and...
0:13:06 > 0:13:12..feel completely free to be themselves...
0:13:12 > 0:13:17100%. No shame or feeling of needing to perform
0:13:17 > 0:13:20a certain way. And no expectation.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24Just really a safe place to be naked, basically.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27Show their innermost soul.
0:13:27 > 0:13:28And...
0:13:30 > 0:13:33And sometimes it's as simple as...
0:13:33 > 0:13:37not having anyone else, not allowing anyone to be in the studio.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Sometimes, when friends are around,
0:13:39 > 0:13:42an artist wants to perform for the friends.
0:13:42 > 0:13:43And... And for some artists,
0:13:43 > 0:13:46having friends around gets a better performance out of them.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48For other artists, it does the exact opposite.
0:13:48 > 0:13:49Yeah.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51So it's like really reading the situation,
0:13:51 > 0:13:54seeing what's right for that artist and experimenting.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56So much of it is experimentation.
0:13:56 > 0:14:01Very rarely do I go in with a preconception of what it's
0:14:01 > 0:14:05going to be, other than really good, and know that it will be
0:14:05 > 0:14:09as long of a journey as it needs to be for it to be really good.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11And your journey has been incredible.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13I mean, not just musically, but personally as well.
0:14:13 > 0:14:14I mean, today...
0:14:14 > 0:14:16you just seem totally at peace
0:14:16 > 0:14:19and you've got this incredibly creative space...
0:14:19 > 0:14:21an amazing place in the world to live.
0:14:21 > 0:14:26But... You were born and raised in New York, and you were a punk,
0:14:26 > 0:14:29and it was a hardcore upbringing in terms of musically, you know?
0:14:29 > 0:14:30Absolutely.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34What a journey. So, when you first started listening to music and...
0:14:34 > 0:14:37you first discovered the passion, the power of it, what was it?
0:14:37 > 0:14:39What was the genre?
0:14:39 > 0:14:42The Beatles was the first thing. I was probably five years old,
0:14:42 > 0:14:43four years old, six years old.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46The Beatles... The Beatles and the Monkees...
0:14:46 > 0:14:48were sort of the thing.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51And then I probably stopped listening to music
0:14:51 > 0:14:52by the time I was seven or eight.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55I got into magic, and I started learning about magic
0:14:55 > 0:14:56and being a magician.
0:14:56 > 0:15:02And then I got back into music in junior high school and it was...
0:15:02 > 0:15:05at that time, Aerosmith, AC/DC,
0:15:05 > 0:15:15Ted Nugent. Hard rock was the first thing and then that morphed into...
0:15:15 > 0:15:17when punk rock happened.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20I was listening to the Clash
0:15:20 > 0:15:23and the Sex Pistols at the same time as the hard rock,
0:15:23 > 0:15:26but it wasn't really until the American hardcore...
0:15:28 > 0:15:30Like...
0:15:30 > 0:15:35Minor Threat and Black Flag, and those felt more relatable to me,
0:15:35 > 0:15:38just because of what they were singing about, really.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40They were singing about more personal stuff,
0:15:40 > 0:15:44whereas the English bands tended to talk more about class struggle
0:15:44 > 0:15:46and things that we didn't really experience here in America,
0:15:46 > 0:15:49so it seemed more foreign, like the...
0:15:50 > 0:15:53I didn't understand why that was something to yell about
0:15:53 > 0:15:55when I was a kid, but...
0:15:55 > 0:16:00Minor Threat singing about, you know, a friend lying to you...
0:16:00 > 0:16:03that was a very real, relatable feeling.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07And you wanted to participate. I mean, you were always a fan,
0:16:07 > 0:16:09but you felt the urge to go and form bands and...
0:16:09 > 0:16:12Yeah. I always played and...
0:16:12 > 0:16:14felt like I wanted to be part of it.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18I never felt like I was particularly good at any...
0:16:18 > 0:16:20any part of it.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22But I enjoyed it and was always passionate about it.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25There's something that was written in an article -
0:16:25 > 0:16:28and I'm not sure if it's true - but I thought it was fascinating,
0:16:28 > 0:16:31and it was that during one of the first shows that you guys played -
0:16:31 > 0:16:34I think it was at CBGB's - there was an incident.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36It turned out that you kind of said to your friends,
0:16:36 > 0:16:38"Let's stage something."
0:16:38 > 0:16:41And your dad had come down and gone, "You guys, get out of this place!"
0:16:41 > 0:16:42- Is that true? - It is true.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44What I loved about that is the fact that, you know, obviously
0:16:44 > 0:16:47your heart is completely and utterly into music,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50but you understood how to get attention. I liked the idea of...
0:16:50 > 0:16:55I've always also appreciated the theatrical nature of things and...
0:16:55 > 0:17:02Especially in the early Beastie Boys, we were really...
0:17:02 > 0:17:05trying to push those buttons...
0:17:05 > 0:17:08And we were probably influenced...
0:17:08 > 0:17:10At the time, we were really into Monty Python
0:17:10 > 0:17:13and we were really into Steve Martin and...
0:17:13 > 0:17:16I heard wrestling as well. I heard you were a big fan of wrestling.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18I always loved pro wrestling, and it's...
0:17:18 > 0:17:20You know, it's a ridiculous world. It's a very...
0:17:21 > 0:17:25..over the top, theatrical, crazy world.
0:17:25 > 0:17:26And... So those...
0:17:26 > 0:17:29Those were inspirations that sort of filtered in
0:17:29 > 0:17:33and that's where the kind of more theatrical side of it...
0:17:33 > 0:17:36The Beasties... We used to do really confrontational shows...
0:17:36 > 0:17:39- Yeah. - ..in the Beasties and...
0:17:39 > 0:17:40it was funny. ZANE LAUGHS
0:17:40 > 0:17:43- It was just ridiculous. - It makes perfect sense, you know,
0:17:43 > 0:17:46when you think about some of the music that you're making,
0:17:46 > 0:17:47the way it was being presented
0:17:47 > 0:17:50in the early Def Jam days as well, it was...
0:17:50 > 0:17:54It was hard and it was tough and it was very concrete, and it was like...
0:17:54 > 0:17:56it'll beat you down to listen to,
0:17:56 > 0:17:58but there was a cartoon nature to it as well.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01Absolutely. Absolutely. Like the songs that...
0:18:03 > 0:18:04Like...
0:18:04 > 0:18:06There are some really offensive songs
0:18:06 > 0:18:08on the first Beastie Boys album and...
0:18:08 > 0:18:13since then, they've felt bad about those songs when, in reality,
0:18:13 > 0:18:16when we were doing it, we knew, "This isn't how we feel.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19"These are ridiculous, funny songs. These are..."
0:18:22 > 0:18:25The reason they had the power they did is
0:18:25 > 0:18:28because of how ridiculous and offensive they were.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30It wasn't anything to...
0:18:30 > 0:18:32I saw the same thing, actually, happen to Black Flag.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Black Flag had that song TV Party...
0:18:34 > 0:18:38and when they put it out, originally, what that song was about was a sort
0:18:38 > 0:18:43of sarcastic song about people who just sit around and watch TV all day
0:18:43 > 0:18:45while we're going out to change the world. That was...
0:18:45 > 0:18:47It didn't say that in the song,
0:18:47 > 0:18:49but that's what the message of the song was.
0:18:49 > 0:18:54And then, when the song got popular, it went from the people
0:18:54 > 0:18:57at the show changing from the people who were in on the joke
0:18:57 > 0:19:00to people who were coming to celebrate a TV party.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02- Thought it was a slacker anthem. - Exactly.
0:19:02 > 0:19:03- Yeah. - Which it wasn't.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05And the same is true with the Beasties,
0:19:05 > 0:19:07where there were these songs that were...
0:19:10 > 0:19:13We knew it was funny, but some people...
0:19:13 > 0:19:14And I met some rappers who were like,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17"I can't believe you guys weren't smoking dust
0:19:17 > 0:19:20"and doing all the stuff that the record said,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22"smoking crack and..." Which we weren't.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24Did it make you want to...
0:19:24 > 0:19:27Did that kind of raise the honest game for you in music?
0:19:27 > 0:19:29Like, "OK, humour's cool, this is fun,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32"but if we continue just making records like this then it's
0:19:32 > 0:19:33"going to be a whole world of...
0:19:33 > 0:19:35"preconceptions and misunderstandings."
0:19:35 > 0:19:38Did it kind of teach you a little lesson at that point?
0:19:38 > 0:19:39I don't think so. I think it's...
0:19:39 > 0:19:42I think it's whatever's right for that particular artist.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45It was years later that we did Baby's Got Back with Sir Mix-A-Lot,
0:19:45 > 0:19:46which was, again, a ridiculous song.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48- Yeah. - And...
0:19:48 > 0:19:50You know, I really like it. I like what it is.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53We're going to spend about 20 minutes talking about that song.
0:19:53 > 0:19:54BOTH LAUGH
0:19:56 > 0:19:58Let's talk about Def Jam, you know...
0:19:58 > 0:20:00because obviously it's a part of your life.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02It's a huge part of your legacy,
0:20:02 > 0:20:04but as a label, as a brand, it continues.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07It's incredible. That logo is still incredibly iconic.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10Did you know when you designed it, when you looked at the Def Jam logo
0:20:10 > 0:20:12and you put the turntable on there, you were pushing for that?
0:20:12 > 0:20:14I had no idea. I thought in terms of
0:20:14 > 0:20:17I like iconic logos and I wanted to make something beautiful,
0:20:17 > 0:20:20but I never thought anybody would ever see it...ever.
0:20:20 > 0:20:24The same with the records we made in the early days,
0:20:24 > 0:20:26we didn't... We didn't make them thinking, "Oh, this is going to
0:20:26 > 0:20:29"change the world," or, "I can't wait for everybody to hear it."
0:20:29 > 0:20:32It was more like, "I know my friends will like this and if...
0:20:32 > 0:20:35"You know, if 500 people hear it, that's amazing.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37"If we can sell enough of these
0:20:37 > 0:20:40"to get to make another one we've succeeded."
0:20:40 > 0:20:42So what happened with I Need A Beat, when LL Cool J blew up?
0:20:42 > 0:20:45Obviously you'd made, you know, It's Yours by then.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48You'd integrated yourself well and truly into the community
0:20:48 > 0:20:51by making a dope record, but then you started to have success.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53Def Jam started to sell copies.
0:20:53 > 0:20:57Yeah. Again, we were in college, probably 20 years old at the time,
0:20:57 > 0:20:59and...
0:20:59 > 0:21:02I don't think it ever really registered. It was just sort of...
0:21:02 > 0:21:06We were completely absorbed with music and making music,
0:21:06 > 0:21:09and... The fact that people liked it was cool,
0:21:09 > 0:21:12but it didn't affect anything that we were doing. It just...
0:21:12 > 0:21:14When did you move out of the dorm room?
0:21:14 > 0:21:17At what point did that...get too small?
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Late. I didn't move out of the dorm...
0:21:19 > 0:21:22Def Jam was in the dorm room for, at least, 18 months.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25- Crazy! - At least 18 months.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27Just stacked with records?
0:21:27 > 0:21:31Both my dorm room was stacked with records and a full PA system
0:21:31 > 0:21:34and DJ setup, and it was, you know, a tiny cell.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36It was ridiculous.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38How did you not get kicked out of university for running...?
0:21:38 > 0:21:40It came very close. It came very close.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42Payola, huh? RICK LAUGHS
0:21:42 > 0:21:45There was actually a...
0:21:45 > 0:21:49- The dorm had a governing body... - Right.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51..and they called a meeting of the governing body for the first
0:21:51 > 0:21:54time since the dorm had been.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57There had never been a reason to call a meeting of this governing body.
0:21:57 > 0:21:58ZANE LAUGHS
0:21:58 > 0:22:01- And then you walk in... - They called the meeting to decide
0:22:01 > 0:22:02whether they were going to throw me out.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05- That's amazing. - Luckily, they didn't throw me out.
0:22:05 > 0:22:06You were thrilled by that.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09It was interesting, but I really didn't want to get thrown out,
0:22:09 > 0:22:11because we had a very good thing going.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15But obviously, you're conscious of the fact that,
0:22:15 > 0:22:17at that time, the records you were making, the fun you were having,
0:22:17 > 0:22:19you're still that punk rock kid, right?
0:22:19 > 0:22:22Absolutely. It was... It was a complete punk rock...
0:22:22 > 0:22:28The initial energy of Def Jam was a more urban version of punk rock -
0:22:28 > 0:22:29that's how we saw it.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32What was Russell Simmons like back then?
0:22:32 > 0:22:34The coolest guy, just...
0:22:34 > 0:22:36He was about five years older than me.
0:22:36 > 0:22:42He already had produced Jimmy Spicer and Run DMC records
0:22:42 > 0:22:45and Curtis Blow records. And...
0:22:45 > 0:22:46There weren't, as we were discussing,
0:22:46 > 0:22:50there weren't that many rap records in those days...
0:22:50 > 0:22:53- and his name was on a lot of them. - Yeah.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56So it was really a big honour for me to meet him, even then,
0:22:56 > 0:22:59because he was on all these records.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01I was a kid in school.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03So getting to meet him...
0:23:03 > 0:23:05It was like...
0:23:05 > 0:23:09He was the first person I met, really, in the record business.
0:23:09 > 0:23:15You know, really in the record business. And if you...
0:23:15 > 0:23:18If you compared him to people who were really in the record business,
0:23:18 > 0:23:20they wouldn't think that he was in the record business.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22But from where we were...
0:23:22 > 0:23:25he was actually involved and that was more than anyone we knew.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27You seemed to be the perfect partnership for Def Jam at that
0:23:27 > 0:23:30moment in time, and then things kind of went wrong.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32I mean, I've never spoken to you about it.
0:23:32 > 0:23:33What was the cause for the...?
0:23:33 > 0:23:35- It didn't really go wrong... - So what happened?
0:23:35 > 0:23:38What happened was we had this incredible success over
0:23:38 > 0:23:41a five-year period, like wild success.
0:23:41 > 0:23:46And in the growth, when things get big, it gets very confusing and
0:23:46 > 0:23:52I was, as I say, 20, 21 at the time, Russell was 26...
0:23:53 > 0:24:00You don't really know how to handle the pressure of this big thing and...
0:24:00 > 0:24:03we didn't really have any structure in the way things worked...
0:24:03 > 0:24:07So we were often played against each other by other people
0:24:07 > 0:24:09and it was just frustrating.
0:24:09 > 0:24:14Any time me and Russell were together it was - we were always cool.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16But when we were forced to make decisions independently,
0:24:16 > 0:24:18a lot of times, he wouldn't like my decision
0:24:18 > 0:24:20and I wouldn't like his decision,
0:24:20 > 0:24:22but there was no system to deal with that.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24We were just trying to put out a lot of fires
0:24:24 > 0:24:26cos there were a lot of fires.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29And eventually I thought, "You know, I love this guy and,
0:24:29 > 0:24:32"for the sake of our relationship, maybe it's better
0:24:32 > 0:24:33"if we're not partners."
0:24:33 > 0:24:36Cos the partnership was starting to, like...
0:24:36 > 0:24:39We had to like everything the other guy did.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42- Hmm-hmm. - So...
0:24:42 > 0:24:45We also now, in retrospect, could have...
0:24:46 > 0:24:51If we knew more, if we were adults, we probably would have found
0:24:51 > 0:24:55a way to better communicate and that would have been fine.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57It would have been completely fine.
0:24:57 > 0:24:59Things would have been different though.
0:24:59 > 0:25:01- It was meant to be. - It was meant to be.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05Meant to be. And our interests were different. Like...
0:25:05 > 0:25:08I always cared about...
0:25:08 > 0:25:11making great music, period,
0:25:11 > 0:25:15and Russell always cared about being a successful businessman,
0:25:15 > 0:25:18and sometimes those roads didn't go together.
0:25:18 > 0:25:22And those were often the things that we would argue about -
0:25:22 > 0:25:26like the art has to come first. And...
0:25:26 > 0:25:28And sometimes it wouldn't.
0:25:28 > 0:25:33And when I understood his business reason for it, he was right. Erm...
0:25:33 > 0:25:36My nature was, "It's gotta be about the art."
0:25:36 > 0:25:38Dan Charnas wrote in a book...
0:25:38 > 0:25:41that you just closed the door on your apartment in New York
0:25:41 > 0:25:45and flew to Los Angeles, flew west, and kind of just left it.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47That's true.
0:25:47 > 0:25:49I actually didn't...
0:25:49 > 0:25:51Well, it wasn't a decision like that.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55I flew to Los Angeles to work on some music and just didn't come back.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58- That would be a more accurate... - It's a less dramatic truth.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01It's the truth. It wasn't like I decided, "I'm getting out of here."
0:26:01 > 0:26:04- Yeah. - It was more of a...
0:26:04 > 0:26:07I was starting an album, there was a movie called Less Than Zero,
0:26:07 > 0:26:10and we did the soundtrack for that, and that was based in LA.
0:26:10 > 0:26:12So we made all those records in LA
0:26:12 > 0:26:14and I was out here for a couple of months.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16And then at the end of that I was living in a hotel,
0:26:16 > 0:26:18and I ended up living in a hotel for nine months.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20I would drive around the Hollywood Hills
0:26:20 > 0:26:22because I came from a place that was very flat...
0:26:22 > 0:26:26and seeing these houses built in these hills was just
0:26:26 > 0:26:28an amazing thing. So every weekend...
0:26:29 > 0:26:32I went out with a local friend of mine and we would just drive
0:26:32 > 0:26:34the Hills and look at houses and just, like, it was just so cool.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37It was just such a new experience for me...
0:26:37 > 0:26:41seeing this. And I always liked the music of...
0:26:41 > 0:26:44Laurel Canyon, so we would look around Laurel Canyon,
0:26:44 > 0:26:46- drive around and imagine... - Neil Young.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49Yeah, Neil Young, Crosby, Stills and Nash and...
0:26:49 > 0:26:51what that world was like. Carole King.
0:26:51 > 0:26:53These amazing, amazing songwriters.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56It was probably needed at the time, given that you were coming out of
0:26:56 > 0:26:58the back of what has been, like you say,
0:26:58 > 0:27:00you didn't fall out, but stressful times.
0:27:00 > 0:27:01It was the end of Def Jam...
0:27:01 > 0:27:04I would say it was stressful, but there was no real falling out.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06It was really... And I can remember going out to lunch
0:27:06 > 0:27:08with Russell and saying,
0:27:08 > 0:27:10"I feel like we'd be better friends if we weren't partners.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12"Do you want to leave the company?"
0:27:12 > 0:27:14He's like, "I don't want to leave." I was like, "OK, I'll leave."
0:27:14 > 0:27:16It was as simple as that.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19When you did leave, I mean, it was in such a fantastic position
0:27:19 > 0:27:21and rap music was the developing mainstream art form
0:27:21 > 0:27:22from the underground.
0:27:22 > 0:27:26You had a huge role to play in that with Licensed To Ill, Run DMC...
0:27:26 > 0:27:28Your work with Run DMC.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30Are they the greatest...? OK... BOTH LAUGH
0:27:32 > 0:27:35- Tough question. - A lot...
0:27:35 > 0:27:39- Do I even ask that question? - It's impossible to answer.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41- How could you answer that? - I know.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44But we don't stop asking each other, friends and everyone else,
0:27:44 > 0:27:46all the time...in terms of impact...
0:27:46 > 0:27:50I will say that, at the time that I started making hip-hop records,
0:27:50 > 0:27:56the idea of some day getting to work with Run DMC would have been...
0:27:58 > 0:28:00That would have been just it.
0:28:00 > 0:28:02- They're a canon. - That would have been it.
0:28:02 > 0:28:03- The energy.
0:28:05 > 0:28:07Working with them, getting that energy...
0:28:07 > 0:28:10I know we're in Los Angeles now, in the grand scheme of things,
0:28:10 > 0:28:12but I'm not ready to fly over there just...
0:28:12 > 0:28:14I've got to go back to New York for a second.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16- Let's talk about Run DMC... - Yeah, yeah.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19..because... I mean, those two, those three guys,
0:28:19 > 0:28:23the two MCs and Jam Master Jay, the three of them...
0:28:23 > 0:28:25- What was it like? - Erm...
0:28:26 > 0:28:30They really lived the hip-hop life. They were...
0:28:30 > 0:28:33What's interesting about Run DMC is that the groups that
0:28:33 > 0:28:37came before them didn't really own...
0:28:38 > 0:28:40..the...
0:28:40 > 0:28:41the hip-hop culture.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43Like if you looked at...
0:28:43 > 0:28:45Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five,
0:28:45 > 0:28:47they dressed more like Parliament,
0:28:47 > 0:28:51or Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic Force, more like Parliament.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53Their influences were...
0:28:54 > 0:28:58..style influences, and often musical influences,
0:28:58 > 0:29:01were more rooted in an older form of music.
0:29:01 > 0:29:05Run DMC were the first actual B-boys, where...
0:29:07 > 0:29:09- The way they dressed... - They hung out.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12Yeah. Wearing the...
0:29:12 > 0:29:13Wearing the...
0:29:14 > 0:29:19..the shell toe Adidas and the warm-up suits and...
0:29:20 > 0:29:24Artists didn't wear warm-up suits on stage in those days.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27You know, they wore leather suits and feathers.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29So it was radical to see these guys,
0:29:29 > 0:29:32who looked like they could be hanging out in a park,
0:29:32 > 0:29:35on stage and singing about different things.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39And the music was different. The music was more...
0:29:41 > 0:29:44It wasn't R&B, which, up till that time,
0:29:44 > 0:29:48most rap records were still R&B records with guys rapping on them.
0:29:48 > 0:29:51Run DMC were the first where it was, like...
0:29:51 > 0:29:53- Drum machine. - ..real hip-hop.
0:29:53 > 0:29:55- Yeah. - Hip-hop records.
0:29:55 > 0:29:59And then... And they were still on the slick side and great.
0:29:59 > 0:30:04And then with something like It's Yours, it was more of like...
0:30:04 > 0:30:08more of the street side of it, you know,
0:30:08 > 0:30:11made by people who didn't know what they were doing.
0:30:11 > 0:30:14Whereas Run DMC had engineers and, like...
0:30:14 > 0:30:18It was more professional and, er, the records I was making at the time,
0:30:18 > 0:30:23it was more like punk rockers making hip-hop, which was different.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25It was just a different aesthetic.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27So you move out to Los Angeles and you decide to stay.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30Well, you go out there to make a record and decide to stay.
0:30:30 > 0:30:31Yeah.
0:30:31 > 0:30:35And from there, the American saga begins and, you know,
0:30:35 > 0:30:37Slayer, obviously - you'd already begun to work with Slayer. Yeah.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40Made Reign In Blood - absolutely incredible record.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42We were talking about short albums before.
0:30:42 > 0:30:44I think Reign In Blood might be, like, 19 minutes long.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46It's unbelievable
0:30:46 > 0:30:49and it's probably an hour of music played in 19 minutes.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51I know, I know, I know. By now, we're getting to know
0:30:51 > 0:30:53that you have this broad aesthetic towards music,
0:30:53 > 0:30:56this broad love of music as a producer, and I think
0:30:56 > 0:30:58any hardcore fan of you knows that that's the way it's going to go.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01Setting up American and moving forward,
0:31:01 > 0:31:03did you have an idea as to what you wanted it to be?
0:31:03 > 0:31:05No idea. Just music I liked.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08It was always about music I liked, finding good things
0:31:08 > 0:31:10and whatever moved me.
0:31:10 > 0:31:14In amongst those... I mean, the first few years of American were kind of...
0:31:14 > 0:31:17It was a fascinating catalogue of artists, you know,
0:31:17 > 0:31:19cos you had the heavy side of things - you had Danzig -
0:31:19 > 0:31:21but you also had, like, Andrew Dice Clay,
0:31:21 > 0:31:24a stand-up comedian who was about the most offensive guy
0:31:24 > 0:31:27- on a microphone at the time. - Absolutely. He fit right in.
0:31:27 > 0:31:29He fit right in with our aesthetic.
0:31:29 > 0:31:33And then you obviously had Sir Mix-A-Lot and Baby Got Back, as well.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36Yeah. And the Black Crows were on the label, the Jayhawks.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38Really cool bands. What were people...
0:31:38 > 0:31:41I mean, in Los Angeles, where the industry exists and people
0:31:41 > 0:31:44you were talking to...you know, how did they take this?
0:31:44 > 0:31:47Someone walks in with this kind of catalogue of artists - unheard of.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49Yeah, not... Honestly not well.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52Pretty much every step of the way, people tried to talk me
0:31:52 > 0:31:54out of what I was doing next.
0:31:54 > 0:31:56You know, I can remember, er...
0:31:59 > 0:32:03..when I formed American and being partners with Geffen Records.
0:32:03 > 0:32:05They really wanted me to make rap records
0:32:05 > 0:32:07because we had all the success with rap. It's like,
0:32:07 > 0:32:10"Why would you do this? Why do you want to sign a comedian?
0:32:10 > 0:32:12"Why do you want to sign the Geto Boys?"
0:32:12 > 0:32:15That was another one that was, like, sort of a...
0:32:15 > 0:32:17- Not everybody liked the Geto Boys. - Yeah.
0:32:17 > 0:32:21I think musically, one of the major turning points for anyone
0:32:21 > 0:32:24who's followed you and your work is Johnny Cash,
0:32:24 > 0:32:27is when you started working with Johnny Cash.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30Talk us through the beginning of that.
0:32:30 > 0:32:32The way it happened was...
0:32:32 > 0:32:36It was interesting. The label was relatively new.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39All of the artists that I'd been working with were kind of young,
0:32:39 > 0:32:43of the moment, first records, you know, or... Glenn Danzig had...
0:32:43 > 0:32:47You know, he was in the Misfits but this was his new band, first record.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50Slayer was still a pretty young band.
0:32:50 > 0:32:54They'd made maybe two independent albums.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56So it was a lot of young people
0:32:56 > 0:33:01and I just thought it'd be interesting to find a grown-up artist
0:33:01 > 0:33:06who's really talented and just hasn't been doing good work for a while
0:33:06 > 0:33:08and, er...
0:33:09 > 0:33:12..help them regain what they were.
0:33:12 > 0:33:17And the first artist who came to mind was Johnny Cash.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19And then I arranged to go and see him play
0:33:19 > 0:33:22and he was everything that I thought he was.
0:33:22 > 0:33:26He was amazing, and had basically been discarded by the, er,
0:33:26 > 0:33:29you know, the country community and written off.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31- Mm. - And, er...
0:33:31 > 0:33:34What was his impression of you, do you think? Did he tell you?
0:33:34 > 0:33:36I think he just thought I was crazy.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38You know, he really didn't...
0:33:38 > 0:33:41I know that he liked that I was
0:33:41 > 0:33:47so enthusiastic on his behalf from the beginning.
0:33:47 > 0:33:48Er...
0:33:48 > 0:33:53But actually, on the way home from his funeral,
0:33:53 > 0:33:55a friend of his told me a story and he said,
0:33:55 > 0:33:58"I'll always trust Rick because
0:33:58 > 0:34:02"he believed in me when I didn't believe in myself."
0:34:02 > 0:34:04And I remember it made me cry when he told me that.
0:34:04 > 0:34:05Er...
0:34:07 > 0:34:11So I just... I saw who he was.
0:34:11 > 0:34:13I saw who he was and I saw that he'd given up
0:34:13 > 0:34:17and that's probably why the music wasn't what it could be.
0:34:17 > 0:34:20So we spent a lot of time together
0:34:20 > 0:34:23and I would just get him to play me music and play me...
0:34:23 > 0:34:26You know, "Sit in my living room, play me songs.
0:34:26 > 0:34:28"Play me the songs you love.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30"Songs you've written, songs you haven't written,
0:34:30 > 0:34:33"new songs, old songs, songs you remember when you were..."
0:34:33 > 0:34:35He used to pick cotton as a kid.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37"Tell me the songs you sang when you were picking cotton.
0:34:37 > 0:34:39"Play me a song. What was your favourite blues song?
0:34:39 > 0:34:41"Your favourite gospel song?"
0:34:41 > 0:34:44You're getting his trust and you're getting to know him through...
0:34:44 > 0:34:47Yeah, and I got to learn his taste through that process,
0:34:47 > 0:34:51because part of the adventure was to find songs for him
0:34:51 > 0:34:55to sing as well, so I wanted to see what were the songs
0:34:55 > 0:34:58that resonated with him throughout his life,
0:34:58 > 0:35:00er...
0:35:00 > 0:35:03as a starting point for looking for songs.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06Johnny Cash was a very famously spiritual man, you know,
0:35:06 > 0:35:10who had his own relationship with God. Sang about it, talked about it.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13You know, I think it was obviously very important to him.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16At this point when you were working with him,
0:35:16 > 0:35:18had you begun your spiritual journey? Had you begun?
0:35:18 > 0:35:22I-I... Luckily, my spiritual journey began when I was very young.
0:35:22 > 0:35:24I started meditating when I was 14,
0:35:24 > 0:35:29so that has played a tremendous role in my life. It's really formed...
0:35:29 > 0:35:33Formed who I am, I think.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36They say that meditation in terms of... One of the many benefits of it
0:35:36 > 0:35:40is it helps to shut things off, to turn things off.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42Without it, would you have had trouble doing that?
0:35:42 > 0:35:44Do you have the kind of brain
0:35:44 > 0:35:46that becomes obsessive and compulsive about what you're doing?
0:35:46 > 0:35:49Absolutely. Yeah, it would be very difficult.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52And it also allows you, er...
0:35:53 > 0:35:57It builds up the muscle to allow you to focus intently
0:35:57 > 0:36:02and look very, very deeply into something.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05And, er... So you develop patience.
0:36:05 > 0:36:08And patience is really helpful in this process,
0:36:08 > 0:36:11in making music and working with artists and...
0:36:11 > 0:36:17Was it important to Johnny Cash that you shared in spirituality with him?
0:36:17 > 0:36:18That you...
0:36:18 > 0:36:21It turned out to be an important factor.
0:36:21 > 0:36:22I don't think it was...
0:36:22 > 0:36:26On our meeting, it wasn't an important factor and it wasn't...
0:36:28 > 0:36:31Our relationship started being about music
0:36:31 > 0:36:35and then just the fact that we both were interested in spiritual things
0:36:35 > 0:36:40kind of came to light through the relationship and,
0:36:40 > 0:36:42I'm sure, deepened our relationship.
0:36:42 > 0:36:45You know, one of the great things about being a record producer
0:36:45 > 0:36:48and being a music fan and someone who makes taste their living
0:36:48 > 0:36:51and their life is you get to build relationships with people that are
0:36:51 > 0:36:52ongoing and you get to see them grow.
0:36:52 > 0:36:56And one band really springs to mind for me. Can you guess who that is?
0:36:56 > 0:36:58Red Hot Chili Peppers. Absolutely.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01You know, the Chili Peppers, for me and you,
0:37:01 > 0:37:04have experienced an awful lot.
0:37:04 > 0:37:08- Absolutely. - When you began working with them,
0:37:08 > 0:37:09what were they like?
0:37:09 > 0:37:11Well, the first time I met them,
0:37:11 > 0:37:14they'd asked me to produce an album two before the one we did.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17And I met them...
0:37:17 > 0:37:20I went to a rehearsal with Adam Horovitz from the Beastie Boys,
0:37:20 > 0:37:25Ad-Rock, and I remember it was a bad vibe.
0:37:25 > 0:37:26It was a bad vibe in the room
0:37:26 > 0:37:31and you could see that the musicians didn't trust each other.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34That was the feeling in the room - mistrust.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37And I'd never really been around that before.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40It was like a toxic feeling and later,
0:37:40 > 0:37:42I learned that it was a drug thing but I didn't know.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45I hadn't really been around that. Er...
0:37:45 > 0:37:49And then the next time I met them, two years later,
0:37:49 > 0:37:51maybe three years later,
0:37:51 > 0:37:55they had all gotten sober and it was an entirely different experience.
0:37:55 > 0:37:59They were different people. And that was when we started working together.
0:37:59 > 0:38:02We made... The first song we made was Blood Sugar Sex Magik.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04What a record. Up at the Houdini house?
0:38:04 > 0:38:06- Yeah. - Do you still have that?
0:38:06 > 0:38:08- Yeah. - Is it haunted?
0:38:08 > 0:38:09Er...
0:38:09 > 0:38:11No-one really knows.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13You hear some stories about that place!
0:38:13 > 0:38:16It's true. All that's true. We don't really know.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Weird stuff happens there.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21- Great music gets made there. - Absolutely.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24More music than we'd ever heard from the Chili Peppers in one sitting
0:38:24 > 0:38:27and sides to them that we'd never believe they could ever come up with,
0:38:27 > 0:38:29like Breaking The Girl and things like that. Under The Bridge.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33Playful moments but also very deep, very heartfelt moments.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36At that point, with John still in the band the first time,
0:38:36 > 0:38:38firing on all cylinders? Just incredible to work with?
0:38:38 > 0:38:42Perfect. They were...peak moment.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45And since then, obviously, you've been able to work with them
0:38:45 > 0:38:48consistently and John's left, he's come back, he's left again.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51That band really are on one of life's
0:38:51 > 0:38:53- fullest journeys, aren't they? - Absolutely.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56It never goes that smooth for them all the way through,
0:38:56 > 0:38:57if you can even define that.
0:38:57 > 0:38:59No, they really do, er...
0:39:00 > 0:39:01They...
0:39:01 > 0:39:05There's tremendous suffering through their process
0:39:05 > 0:39:10and it's amazing that they still stand strong. It's unbelievable.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13The chemistry between - I'm going to include John in this, even though
0:39:13 > 0:39:16he's no longer in the band - those four people
0:39:16 > 0:39:18and the additional people that joined the band
0:39:18 > 0:39:20through Flea and Chad and Anthony...
0:39:20 > 0:39:23How would you, having worked so closely with them,
0:39:23 > 0:39:25describe what's unique about their chemistry?
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Cos that's the most important thing about being in a band, the flow.
0:39:28 > 0:39:32Yeah, they really love each other. They have a brotherly, like...
0:39:33 > 0:39:38..love of each other and their passion for music - it goes beyond.
0:39:38 > 0:39:42You know, Flea may be the best bass player in the world
0:39:42 > 0:39:46and all he does is practise bass.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49He's already the best and he's still like... I remember I called him.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52I had a great drummer playing here one day and I said,
0:39:52 > 0:39:54"Do you want to jam with this drummer?" He's like,
0:39:54 > 0:39:57"Oh, I haven't played in a few days. I don't think I'm up to it."
0:39:57 > 0:40:02In his mind it's like if he doesn't practise for three hours,
0:40:02 > 0:40:05he's not ready to really do it. And, er...
0:40:05 > 0:40:11It's that sort of... The dedication to musicianship
0:40:11 > 0:40:16and all of the members have dedication to the musicianship
0:40:16 > 0:40:20and in Anthony's case, it's just a love of music. Just a real...
0:40:20 > 0:40:22And he's a great front man.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25- I want to talk about System. - Yeah, great.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27Because there's a band that I think a lot of people listening
0:40:27 > 0:40:30and watching this will be really interested to know
0:40:30 > 0:40:33what it's like working with them, because you've got four characters
0:40:33 > 0:40:35in a band - all of them very strong characters -
0:40:35 > 0:40:38and the music they make is very strong and very unique.
0:40:38 > 0:40:40- Absolutely. - Just talk us through.
0:40:40 > 0:40:42Tell us some stories about System Of A Down
0:40:42 > 0:40:44and how it's been to work with them.
0:40:44 > 0:40:47Yeah. I remember going to see them the first time I went to see them.
0:40:47 > 0:40:52They played the Viper Room in LA. It was packed - you know, 200 people.
0:40:52 > 0:40:54- Sold out! - Sold out.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58And I remember watching the show and just laughing.
0:40:58 > 0:40:59I laughed the whole time.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02It was the funniest thing I'd ever seen but in a good way.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04It wasn't like laughing, like, "What a joke."
0:41:04 > 0:41:10It was just so over the top and so extreme and, er...
0:41:10 > 0:41:16Like Armenian folk dancing with heavy metal riffs and, er...
0:41:16 > 0:41:19you know, wild political lyrics and screaming. It was just...
0:41:19 > 0:41:22It was crazy music and...
0:41:23 > 0:41:27..usually, heavy music falls...
0:41:27 > 0:41:32A lot of heavy music falls into a similar vein. Er...
0:41:34 > 0:41:36I'm not going to say it's interchangeable, cos it's not.
0:41:36 > 0:41:41But there are certain rules of heavy metal, let's say, that...
0:41:41 > 0:41:42Everyone sort of follows those rules.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45It's a loyal fanbase and they like... Yeah.
0:41:45 > 0:41:50And System Of A Down were a heavy band -
0:41:50 > 0:41:54you could say a heavy metal band - who didn't follow those rules.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57So they didn't have the rhythms that you'd hear in a typical...
0:41:57 > 0:42:00You know, you wouldn't hear a Metallica rhythm.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03You'd hear a System Of A Down rhythm, which was different.
0:42:03 > 0:42:05# Dun-de-de-der Dun-de-de-der. #
0:42:05 > 0:42:08Like different gallops and different, er...
0:42:08 > 0:42:12And it's rooted in their Armenian heritage.
0:42:12 > 0:42:17So they took elements from folk music and brought that into heavy metal
0:42:17 > 0:42:20and I remember at the time, I'd never heard anything like it.
0:42:20 > 0:42:22And I can remember people...
0:42:22 > 0:42:25While there were those of us who loved them fanatically,
0:42:25 > 0:42:27- people hated them. - Yeah.
0:42:27 > 0:42:29You know, people hated them. I can remember...
0:42:29 > 0:42:33The big radio station in LA is KROQ
0:42:33 > 0:42:36and Kevin Weatherly's the programme director of KROQ
0:42:36 > 0:42:38and I remember him saying,
0:42:38 > 0:42:42"System Of A Down is a band we will never play on our station ever, 100%.
0:42:42 > 0:42:44"I don't care what happens - they're not...
0:42:44 > 0:42:46"That doesn't fit on our station."
0:42:46 > 0:42:49And a year later, it was the number-one band on the station.
0:42:49 > 0:42:50- Unbelievable. - Yeah.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52- I know... - It's...
0:42:52 > 0:42:55They clearly didn't fit but they were so good
0:42:55 > 0:42:57that they transcended not fitting.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01And those are the artists that I like the best.
0:43:01 > 0:43:03Those are my favourite artists, the ones that...
0:43:03 > 0:43:08They don't really fit anywhere. They're not another in this mould.
0:43:08 > 0:43:11Rage Against The Machine's another great example.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Rage Against The Machine - they don't sound like anyone...
0:43:14 > 0:43:16No-one before Rage Against The Machine sounded like them.
0:43:16 > 0:43:20And a lot of people didn't like them for that reason. But those are
0:43:20 > 0:43:23the revolutionary bands, those are the ones that change the world.
0:43:23 > 0:43:27One of those bands, I believe, who have made some remarkable records
0:43:27 > 0:43:30and totally gave heavy metal a kick up the arse was Slipknot.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34- Yeah, incredible. - That band live are unbelievable.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37It doesn't always work out that you see eye to eye with the artist.
0:43:37 > 0:43:39You have an incredible track record -
0:43:39 > 0:43:41a lot of producers have a much worse one.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44How do you feel, then, when sometimes an artist comes out
0:43:44 > 0:43:45and is vocal about the process?
0:43:45 > 0:43:49Well, it's interesting because if you talk to the Clown,
0:43:49 > 0:43:52who's sort of the leader, Shawn, of Slipknot,
0:43:52 > 0:43:58he and I are so on the same page, it's unbelievable.
0:43:58 > 0:44:02And, er, not everybody in the band felt the same way, which is...
0:44:02 > 0:44:03It's all cool.
0:44:03 > 0:44:06I still think the album we made's maybe their best album.
0:44:06 > 0:44:10I know for me it's their best album. I know a lot of fans really like it.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13So I know that, er...
0:44:15 > 0:44:19I think Corey didn't like the way we went about doing it.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21Well, you hear different rep...
0:44:21 > 0:44:23different assessments of your way of working.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26I know it's different for everyone. Sometimes you're in the booth,
0:44:26 > 0:44:28absolutely hands-on - control room, totally hands-on.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31Other times, you'll leave a band to work on their own.
0:44:31 > 0:44:33What's the philosophy behind that?
0:44:33 > 0:44:36It's whatever's right in that moment for that band
0:44:36 > 0:44:41and I don't feel like I want to hold a band's hand through the process.
0:44:41 > 0:44:45I want to be there whenever I need to be there to make it better.
0:44:47 > 0:44:52If things are going along in a way where...they've got this,
0:44:52 > 0:44:54I want to hear them get this, and I want to hear it
0:44:54 > 0:44:56and then I'll listen to it after and we talk about it,
0:44:56 > 0:45:00"You really got it, or you got it 80% - let's fix this part."
0:45:00 > 0:45:02And it just depends.
0:45:02 > 0:45:09The parts that I'm always there for is the basic tracking part,
0:45:09 > 0:45:13which is where we create this foundation to build on
0:45:13 > 0:45:15and to me, that's the key to the whole thing.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18Like, if that's right, you can try a lot of different things.
0:45:18 > 0:45:20When it comes time to do guitar solos...
0:45:22 > 0:45:23..I might not...
0:45:23 > 0:45:28Like on an Audioslave record, I might say to Tom Morello,
0:45:28 > 0:45:31"Just do a bunch of solos and play me what you've got,"
0:45:31 > 0:45:35and then I listen back and it's like, "OK, these five are really great.
0:45:35 > 0:45:37"These others are not good enough."
0:45:37 > 0:45:40And sometimes it'll just be, "Do more," or sometimes it'll be,
0:45:40 > 0:45:43"Let's do 'em together." It's really whatever's needed.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46But I give a tremendous...
0:45:46 > 0:45:52I trust the artists I work with and I like them
0:45:52 > 0:45:55to feel like they're making this thing themselves.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57I don't want them to feel like they're making my record.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00I want them to feel like this is their record
0:46:00 > 0:46:05and to be invested in it in a very personal way. It's different.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08And I've had that... Early in my career,
0:46:08 > 0:46:12that was a flaw of the way I worked, was that I wanted it my way.
0:46:12 > 0:46:17You know? And it led to not good relationships with the early bands
0:46:17 > 0:46:22I worked with because it had to be my way and I've learned through,
0:46:22 > 0:46:26er, making a lot of records and collaborating
0:46:26 > 0:46:29that it can be much better than my way.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31I didn't know that in the beginning.
0:46:31 > 0:46:35Now I know I have a way but it may not be the best way and I want
0:46:35 > 0:46:37to hear everybody else's way,
0:46:37 > 0:46:39maybe before I even suggest my way, because...
0:46:41 > 0:46:44..member number two's idea is the best idea.
0:46:45 > 0:46:48Another thing is, we never try to judge an idea
0:46:48 > 0:46:51based on the description of the idea.
0:46:51 > 0:46:56We always musically try an idea, which is a pretty important point.
0:46:56 > 0:47:00And I can think of a time when I'll say, er,
0:47:00 > 0:47:04"You know, the... The bridge in this song isn't good enough.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06"Can we write a new part?" And the artist will say,
0:47:06 > 0:47:08"Oh, yeah, I have an idea. We could do it like this,"
0:47:08 > 0:47:11and they'll give me a description of what it is and it sounds terrible.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14The description sounds terrible. "Great, can't wait to hear it."
0:47:14 > 0:47:18And then they... And then they do it and it's incredible.
0:47:18 > 0:47:20- Yeah. - And the reason is...
0:47:22 > 0:47:25..it's very difficult to explain a musical idea.
0:47:27 > 0:47:30If I tell you something I'm hearing and I describe it to you, the thing
0:47:30 > 0:47:33you hear is going to be completely different than the thing I'm hearing.
0:47:33 > 0:47:37So we never rely on that...
0:47:37 > 0:47:40The explanation being what it is.
0:47:40 > 0:47:44It's always, "Show it to me. Let me hear it." And...
0:47:44 > 0:47:48And if it's terrible, do you say, "It's terrible"?
0:47:48 > 0:47:52I might. Depends on my relationship with the artist. I mean,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55I know that Chad from the Chili Peppers makes jokes about, like,
0:47:55 > 0:47:58"We'll be in there and we'll be playing our hardest,
0:47:58 > 0:48:01"playing our hearts out, thinking this is the greatest thing we've ever
0:48:01 > 0:48:06"done and that we finish the track, we look to Rick and Rick's like..."
0:48:06 > 0:48:08THEY CHUCKLE
0:48:10 > 0:48:12So it really depends on the nature of the artist.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14Some artists really like -
0:48:14 > 0:48:19especially bands - like a sarcastic banter.
0:48:19 > 0:48:20Humour's important, I think,
0:48:20 > 0:48:23especially if you're going to be the bearer of some difficult news.
0:48:23 > 0:48:25Sometimes it's good to be able to be playful with it.
0:48:25 > 0:48:28Certain artists you have to be very direct with.
0:48:28 > 0:48:32You know, it's a delicate thing. It really depends on the artist.
0:48:32 > 0:48:33Everyone's different.
0:48:33 > 0:48:36Has there been one album in particular that's been really...
0:48:36 > 0:48:39that you can think of as being really challenging,
0:48:39 > 0:48:41really challenging to see all the way through to the end,
0:48:41 > 0:48:44but you're obviously very proud of the result but it was very difficult?
0:48:52 > 0:48:56None are coming to mind. If you ask me that again later, maybe it'll...
0:48:56 > 0:49:00Maybe it'll come up but offhand, I can't think of any.
0:49:00 > 0:49:03If I was looking at a discography, I would probably...
0:49:03 > 0:49:06I'm not surprised, cos I looked at your discography this morning again -
0:49:06 > 0:49:09- it's insane! - It's a lot of music.
0:49:09 > 0:49:12It's insane! And, you know, and...
0:49:12 > 0:49:16the diversity of it. I mean, working with Shakira - how was that?
0:49:16 > 0:49:18Great. She's amazing.
0:49:18 > 0:49:20What made you want to work with Shakira?
0:49:20 > 0:49:22I know how talented she is - everyone does - but when you're
0:49:22 > 0:49:25dealing with a pop artist, you're kind of guilty by association.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28You put Shakira next to the not-so-good pop artists on the radio
0:49:28 > 0:49:30and it's hard to shake that perception.
0:49:30 > 0:49:34Absolutely. She's unique in that world,
0:49:34 > 0:49:38in that she is competing with all these manufactured pop artists
0:49:38 > 0:49:42and she's not a manufactured pop artist. Or...
0:49:42 > 0:49:46At the time that we got together, she was essentially...
0:49:46 > 0:49:49And another artist like this is Lady Gaga,
0:49:49 > 0:49:54who is essentially a rock musician,
0:49:54 > 0:49:56a singer in a rock band.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59That's essentially who they are.
0:49:59 > 0:50:03Who write their own songs, know exactly how they want it to be,
0:50:03 > 0:50:06have a vision of what they do and they're the artist.
0:50:06 > 0:50:07They're not the singer.
0:50:07 > 0:50:11Then there are other pop artists who are the singer
0:50:11 > 0:50:13and then they get the best track from the producer
0:50:13 > 0:50:17and then someone writes good lyrics for them and then they sing it.
0:50:17 > 0:50:22Shakira's not like that. Gaga's not like that. They are the artist.
0:50:22 > 0:50:26And, er... And I like artists.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29Are there artists that got away? I mean, you spoke recently about NWA.
0:50:29 > 0:50:32Are there artists you've never worked with that you'd love to work with
0:50:32 > 0:50:33or wish you'd had a chance to work with?
0:50:33 > 0:50:35I would have loved to have worked with NWA.
0:50:35 > 0:50:38I would have loved to, er... Who else?
0:50:40 > 0:50:42I loved LCD Soundsystem. Sad they broke up.
0:50:42 > 0:50:45That would've been a band I would've loved to make music with.
0:50:45 > 0:50:47I thought they were fantastic.
0:50:47 > 0:50:51Er... And then, obviously, ones that have passed away.
0:50:51 > 0:50:54It'd be good to make a Beatles record.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56- Imagine you with Nirvana. - Incredible.
0:50:56 > 0:50:59- It would have been unbelievable. - Yeah.
0:50:59 > 0:51:00Ever worked with Dave Grohl?
0:51:00 > 0:51:02Er...we've been in the studio together.
0:51:02 > 0:51:06I don't think that we've actually ever recorded anything together.
0:51:07 > 0:51:10I mean, a Rick Rubin Foo Fighters album...
0:51:10 > 0:51:16I feel like he may have played on a Tom Petty session we did
0:51:16 > 0:51:19but I honestly can't remember.
0:51:19 > 0:51:20So the new era of American Recordings,
0:51:20 > 0:51:23now you've emerged from being involved with Columbia Records
0:51:23 > 0:51:25and you've taken hold of American again...
0:51:25 > 0:51:27Yes.
0:51:27 > 0:51:29How is it different to the first time around?
0:51:29 > 0:51:30I mean, you've changed as a person.
0:51:30 > 0:51:33Has much changed in the way you want to make records?
0:51:33 > 0:51:35Not really. It's always been the same.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37I've always been a record producer, I've always had a label,
0:51:37 > 0:51:39I've always looked for things I liked
0:51:39 > 0:51:42and just tried to work with artists that I love.
0:51:42 > 0:51:48And if they are someone new and available,
0:51:48 > 0:51:51I'll sign them and try to make their records as good as we can
0:51:51 > 0:51:53and put them out on the label.
0:51:53 > 0:51:56And if they're a big artist on a label already,
0:51:56 > 0:51:58I'll work with them in that capacity.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01Records to look forward to - Ed Sheeran, you did work with him.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03- He's great. We're big fans of him. - Fantastic.
0:52:03 > 0:52:05- Lovely, lovely guy. - Super-cool guy.
0:52:05 > 0:52:07He said that what he really loved about working with you was
0:52:07 > 0:52:09that you made it a performance again
0:52:09 > 0:52:12and that he felt he'd spent too much time trying to carve the songs
0:52:12 > 0:52:15with people and you just put him in a room with a loop pedal and said,
0:52:15 > 0:52:18- "Just sing 'em." - Yeah, I...
0:52:18 > 0:52:22I saw him play live and I loved him live
0:52:22 > 0:52:26and I thought what he's doing is so unique and so original.
0:52:26 > 0:52:32And if you took a more traditional track and have him sing on it,
0:52:32 > 0:52:36that's not what's good about when you see him live.
0:52:36 > 0:52:41And I thought the closer we could get to what makes him him,
0:52:41 > 0:52:45the better it would be, and that was the goal for the songs. What...
0:52:45 > 0:52:48I don't want to know what the version that sounds good on the radio
0:52:48 > 0:52:52sounds like - I want to know what the Ed Sheeran version sounds like.
0:52:52 > 0:52:58You know, I want to know... You as an artist - what do you sound like?
0:52:58 > 0:53:02And what... What... More...
0:53:02 > 0:53:05Maximising what makes him different than everybody else on the radio,
0:53:05 > 0:53:09instead of trying to minimise and make him fit.
0:53:09 > 0:53:12It's like, I don't want him to fit - I want him to sound like him.
0:53:12 > 0:53:14Uniquely him.
0:53:14 > 0:53:16That's a performance-based methodology towards producing.
0:53:16 > 0:53:19That's what you do. You put people in a room and say,
0:53:19 > 0:53:22"Let's get the closest thing to who you are that we can possibly do."
0:53:22 > 0:53:26And yet, in this day and age, we're dealing in a very tech-heavy world,
0:53:26 > 0:53:28where every single frame of music can be itemised
0:53:28 > 0:53:31and broken down and positioned perfectly and everything else.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34What is your attitude towards that kind of recording technique,
0:53:34 > 0:53:36given that you don't have to do it that way but it exists?
0:53:36 > 0:53:39And I love programmed music as well.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42I love Kraftwerk. Currently, I love James Blake.
0:53:42 > 0:53:47And that's much more machine-driven, and I love it, absolutely love it.
0:53:47 > 0:53:49I don't think there's a right or wrong way,
0:53:49 > 0:53:51it's really...about each artist.
0:53:51 > 0:53:55What is the artist's voice? What's their...?
0:53:55 > 0:53:57- When I say "voice, you know what... - Yeah.
0:53:57 > 0:53:59What's their sound? What's their trip?
0:53:59 > 0:54:02What makes them special? What's unique to them?
0:54:02 > 0:54:09And, um...and how can I help bring that out and support that,
0:54:09 > 0:54:11as opposed to,
0:54:11 > 0:54:14"I have a great idea how to make my version of what they do"?
0:54:14 > 0:54:17It's the furthest thing from that.
0:54:17 > 0:54:19You said you always wanted to make great music
0:54:19 > 0:54:22and business wasn't necessarily the thing that was driving you,
0:54:22 > 0:54:25but...in your own way, you've been a businessman, obviously,
0:54:25 > 0:54:27and very successful at it
0:54:27 > 0:54:30and also worked with large business and large companies,
0:54:30 > 0:54:31Columbia Records,
0:54:31 > 0:54:33at a time when music was changing
0:54:33 > 0:54:36and people were discovering music, enjoying music, treating music...
0:54:37 > 0:54:40Give us your insight into where it is
0:54:40 > 0:54:41and where you think it might be going -
0:54:41 > 0:54:43I know you love to make music,
0:54:43 > 0:54:44but it's important that we kinda know.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47Yeah, well...I don't think there's any -
0:54:47 > 0:54:50much like making music - there's no right way for it to happen
0:54:50 > 0:54:53and it's whatever's right for any particular artist.
0:54:53 > 0:54:55And, um, there...
0:54:55 > 0:54:59I will say, I'm an independent-minded person...
0:55:00 > 0:55:02..yet...
0:55:03 > 0:55:05..it's...
0:55:05 > 0:55:11There are very few examples of totally independent artists
0:55:11 > 0:55:14who've had the impact on the world
0:55:14 > 0:55:16in the way that artists who have relationships
0:55:16 > 0:55:20with big companies and muscle can do.
0:55:20 > 0:55:25And my main concern is making the best music
0:55:25 > 0:55:30and having anyone who likes it know about it
0:55:30 > 0:55:33and have the chance to be part of that.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35- Mm. - And, um...
0:55:35 > 0:55:39I've not yet seen the independent side
0:55:39 > 0:55:42completely be able to take it to that fruition.
0:55:42 > 0:55:49Even in the case of Radiohead, they were already on a major label
0:55:49 > 0:55:51and they were broken through a major label,
0:55:51 > 0:55:54so for them to then leave and do things independently,
0:55:54 > 0:55:55it's different.
0:55:55 > 0:55:59- They used it as a platform. - Exactly. Um...
0:55:59 > 0:56:03For an artist starting, again, there are too few examples -
0:56:03 > 0:56:07and even for the best examples you can come up with,
0:56:07 > 0:56:10they don't seem to have the same, um...
0:56:13 > 0:56:18..cultural significance musically on the world - yet.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21Now, again, I'm completely open to it happening.
0:56:21 > 0:56:24- I just haven't seen it yet. - Mm.
0:56:24 > 0:56:26I've been dying to ask you a question,
0:56:26 > 0:56:27I know you'll take it the right way.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29Yeah.
0:56:30 > 0:56:32- How important...? - That's a scary setup.
0:56:32 > 0:56:35RICK LAUGHS Did you see why I sat up like that?
0:56:35 > 0:56:37All of a sudden, I've gone from half-asleep,
0:56:37 > 0:56:40asking you questions about the Red Hot Chili Peppers,
0:56:40 > 0:56:42I'm like, "Rick, I've got a question."
0:56:42 > 0:56:44- Um... - "You may not like this one."
0:56:44 > 0:56:46No, it's a good one. It's a good one.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49How important, apart from the comfort and the way it looks,
0:56:49 > 0:56:51has the beard and the way you are been
0:56:51 > 0:56:54towards breaking down barriers amongst people?
0:56:54 > 0:56:56Certainly, in things like hip-hop
0:56:56 > 0:56:58or worlds that you've had to go into and say,
0:56:58 > 0:57:00"I'm a fan and I want to make the best record I can,"
0:57:00 > 0:57:05and they look at you and go, "Who is this crazy dude right here?"
0:57:05 > 0:57:10I couldn't answer that, you'd have to ask the people on the other side,
0:57:10 > 0:57:12cos it's not a premeditated thing.
0:57:12 > 0:57:13I just decided, when I was in college,
0:57:13 > 0:57:16I decided to stop shaving one day and this is what has happened.
0:57:16 > 0:57:20It was not a, "I'm going to have this beard and..."
0:57:20 > 0:57:22It didn't work like that.
0:57:22 > 0:57:24So many of the things the...
0:57:26 > 0:57:29So many of the things along the path of my life
0:57:29 > 0:57:32have not been choices that I've made,
0:57:32 > 0:57:34but things that have...they've really just happened.
0:57:34 > 0:57:36I feel like I'm a passenger in this.
0:57:36 > 0:57:39You learned to let go early on, as much as you can.
0:57:39 > 0:57:40Absolutely.
0:57:41 > 0:57:44You live a rich life, man, and I don't mean materially.
0:57:44 > 0:57:47- It's just incredible. - Unbelievable. Can't believe it.
0:57:47 > 0:57:48I still can't believe it.
0:57:48 > 0:57:50How important does gratitude play a part in that?
0:57:50 > 0:57:55100% - we give thanks every day, we do gratitude lists...beautiful.
0:57:55 > 0:57:58It's been lovely talking about music with you, man.
0:57:58 > 0:57:59Same.
0:57:59 > 0:58:01It's been so nice hanging out here and...
0:58:01 > 0:58:03I know you've got a session. What are you doing today?
0:58:03 > 0:58:05Uh, today, Kanye West is coming in
0:58:05 > 0:58:10and we're starting...looking at vocal ideas for things for the next album.
0:58:10 > 0:58:13Incredible - well, we can't wait to hear it, as always,
0:58:13 > 0:58:14and everything that you do.
0:58:14 > 0:58:16- Cool. My pleasure. - Thank you, man.
0:58:16 > 0:58:17Thank you so much.
0:58:17 > 0:58:19THEY LAUGH You guys happy?
0:58:19 > 0:58:20INAUDIBLE
0:58:20 > 0:58:23# Go tell that long tongue liar
0:58:23 > 0:58:26# Go and tell that midnight rider
0:58:26 > 0:58:29# Tell the rambler, the gambler The backbiter
0:58:29 > 0:58:33# Tell them that God's gonna cut you down
0:58:33 > 0:58:35# Tell them that God's gonna cut you down... #