:00:07. > :00:13.Conference in Manchester where we This is the Andrew Neil interview
:00:13. > :00:17.live live from the Conservative Party Conference in Manchester. My
:00:17. > :00:23.guest is the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley. Welcome to our
:00:23. > :00:29.programme. . APPLAUSE
:00:29. > :00:33.You have known David Cameron and George Osborne for years. You were
:00:33. > :00:37.their boss... 20 years ago. How have they changed? David
:00:37. > :00:41.Cameron, of course, if you recall back to the 1992 general election,
:00:41. > :00:44.in the midst of that general election, each morning the Prime
:00:44. > :00:49.Minister then John Major came to Conservative research department
:00:49. > :00:52.and was briefed each morning by the brightest and best of the research
:00:52. > :00:56.department. You can guess who that was, David Cameron.
:00:56. > :01:01.Not George Osborne? George Osborne joined the research department
:01:01. > :01:05.after the 1992 general election and he followed David in being
:01:05. > :01:11.responsible for the political department. Have they changed? Well,
:01:11. > :01:15.I would say David hasn't changed in terms of great abilities, the
:01:15. > :01:20.ability to see a strategy and to pursue T George Osborne I would say
:01:20. > :01:23.like wise, but we were in troubled times after the 92 election when he
:01:23. > :01:26.was at the research department and he was up against it and we didn't
:01:26. > :01:30.have the opportunity to fight and win a general election as we did
:01:30. > :01:32.and David played a central part actually in fighting that and
:01:32. > :01:37.winning that general election back then.
:01:37. > :01:39.They are now your boss so what went wrong?
:01:39. > :01:43.LAUGHTER Nothing went wrong. What went right
:01:43. > :01:45.for the country is we have David Cameron as leader of the
:01:46. > :01:52.Conservative Party and as Prime Minister. That's the right thing.
:01:52. > :01:59.You suffered a stroke at one stage. Way back nearly 20 years ago.
:01:59. > :02:03.have that any influence, did it shape your attitude to the NHS?
:02:03. > :02:08.really. I think for a number of reasons I was a supporter of the
:02:08. > :02:13.NHS and somebody who was particularly wanted to see the NHS
:02:13. > :02:20.prosper and that was actually going back to when my father was running
:02:20. > :02:23.the pathology laboratory at Eastham Memorial Hospital, but as a patient
:02:23. > :02:28.in 1992, I did realise if you wanted to get the best treatment
:02:28. > :02:31.you had to in effect negotiate your way through the NHS. It is 20 years
:02:31. > :02:35.ago, but it is true today that we have to concentrate on ensuring
:02:35. > :02:39.that what is called in the NHS the inverse care law, that the people
:02:39. > :02:45.who are most in need, are the people who are least likely to get
:02:45. > :02:49.access to carement I was looking at some of the new data that we are
:02:49. > :02:56.generating. Across this country, actually, the people who have the
:02:56. > :03:00.poorest performance in terms of needs -- knees, are the people in
:03:00. > :03:05.the parts of the country that have the least access to knee surgery.
:03:05. > :03:10.So that inverse care law still applies. One of the things I want
:03:10. > :03:13.to see happen across the NHS is for people to have much better
:03:13. > :03:18.information, access to the NHS, and the ability to get the services
:03:18. > :03:23.that they need. Explain how the Tory position went
:03:23. > :03:29.from no top down reform of the NHS when you were in Opposition to the
:03:29. > :03:34.biggest organisational reforms ever when you were in Government?
:03:34. > :03:39.said it needed to be modernised and it needed change. We said we were
:03:39. > :03:43.going to devolve decision making in the NHS close to the front-line. We
:03:43. > :03:49.said we would give patients more choice and information. We said we
:03:49. > :03:54.would have a new patient voice. What we didn't say before the
:03:54. > :03:58.election that we would needily abolish Primary Care Trusts and
:03:58. > :03:59.Strategic Health Authorities, but we brought together both our
:03:59. > :04:03.priorities for health and the Liberal Democrats priorities for
:04:03. > :04:07.health. The Liberal Democrat priority was
:04:07. > :04:12.to give - no, let me complete the thought.
:04:12. > :04:17.Are you saying you wanted major organisational change? Yes.
:04:17. > :04:21.Hatch your party didn't -- half your party didn't? If you look at
:04:21. > :04:26.the manifesto. It is not a top down structure, it is a devolved
:04:26. > :04:30.structure and it is a more independent autonomous structure
:04:30. > :04:33.for its NHS. You can go back to the 2007 white paper and see the
:04:33. > :04:39.structure of what we are setting for the NHS then.
:04:39. > :04:43.A question from Barbara, in this audience. Where are the health
:04:43. > :04:47.reforms going, she wants to know? In the direction of giving patients
:04:47. > :04:51.greater information and say in their care. The patient should feel
:04:51. > :04:54.through the NHS that it is literally no decision about me,
:04:54. > :04:58.without me. Secondly, we are putting in place devolved decision
:04:58. > :05:01.making so the doctors and nurses in whom we put our trust to make
:05:01. > :05:04.clinical decisions are also in a position collectively to be able to
:05:04. > :05:08.decide what services they need for the best interests of their
:05:08. > :05:13.patients. Thirdly, we are putting in place serious information about
:05:13. > :05:17.the outcomes that we achieve, not just the processes and the targets
:05:17. > :05:21.and fourthly, we are going to build a stronger public health structure,
:05:21. > :05:26.not least bringing Local Government across England into a place where
:05:27. > :05:30.it can lead health him prosmt plans -- improvement plans.
:05:30. > :05:35.Can you explain the principles? That patients should have no
:05:35. > :05:38.decision about me without me and the decisions should be made by the
:05:38. > :05:43.doctors and nurses whom we trust and they should be accountable for
:05:43. > :05:48.the results they achieve. I hope that's two sentences.
:05:48. > :05:51.That's three, or two, but a very long one. In the changes that
:05:51. > :05:54.you've been making to this legislation, have the fundamental
:05:54. > :05:58.principles change snd. No, the fundamental principles haven't
:05:58. > :06:02.changed, but we have change add number of things in order to
:06:02. > :06:06.improve and reassure people. But these are changes of detail or
:06:06. > :06:10.cosmetic? No, they are not cosmetic, they are significant. There are
:06:10. > :06:12.substantive changes. People wanted reassurance in the legislation that
:06:12. > :06:16.the sect of state would be responsible for education and
:06:16. > :06:19.training in the NHS and we've put that in. They wanted to be clear
:06:19. > :06:22.that competition in the NHS was competition on quality and not on
:06:23. > :06:28.price and we amended the legislation so that is clear.
:06:28. > :06:33.People wanted to be confident that the private sector wouldn't be
:06:33. > :06:39.given advantages compared to NHS services and we've put that in. So
:06:39. > :06:43.we can't go down the path of future secretaries of states, can't go
:06:43. > :06:46.down the bath the Labour Party did which is giving the private sector
:06:46. > :06:51.a higher price for what they were offering to the NHS and they were
:06:51. > :06:54.willing to pay to NHS providers. I could go on, but there are a range
:06:54. > :06:58.of changes. Why didn't you put that in from the
:06:58. > :07:03.start? Some of it, we heard interest people and we said "yes,
:07:03. > :07:07.we can give you that reassurance so we changed the Bill." A grown-up
:07:07. > :07:11.approach is to be willing to listen, reflect and improve.
:07:11. > :07:15.When David Cameron and Nick Clegg, when they signed this white paper
:07:15. > :07:18.in July 2010, they wrote the introduction along with you. When
:07:18. > :07:22.they signed that introduction, do you think they understood the
:07:22. > :07:26.implications of your white paper? am sure they did. Not only did they
:07:26. > :07:28.sign the forward, but we had obviously Cabinet and Cabinet
:07:28. > :07:32.committee discussions to approve the policy.
:07:32. > :07:38.Why did they start demanding changes a year later? For the same
:07:38. > :07:42.same reason I looked for changes. So they hadn't fully understood it?
:07:42. > :07:46.People wanted reassurance and we wanted to give them reassurance.
:07:46. > :07:51.Some people said, "You tell us this is going to be true, but we we
:07:51. > :07:56.can't see it in the legislation." Other things people came forward
:07:56. > :08:00.with good responses because remember between July 2010 and
:08:01. > :08:04.about March 2011, we moved from a place where most of the doctors and
:08:04. > :08:08.nurses across the NHS weren't really engaged with this. We got
:08:08. > :08:12.them to a place, the same is true for local authorities actually, by
:08:12. > :08:19.the spring of this year, we got them to a place where they were
:08:19. > :08:24.mostly engaged. The Pathfinder Consortia were nearly all signed up
:08:24. > :08:28.by the spring of this year and they are focused then and they have been
:08:28. > :08:31.focused on what their job will be in the future and they wanted to
:08:31. > :08:36.know for example, how it would work. How the hospital consultants and
:08:36. > :08:40.specialists were going to be co- ordinating with GPs in designing
:08:40. > :08:42.services better. So we had through the legislation we've put
:08:42. > :08:47.additional duties to integrate services.
:08:47. > :08:52.But back in January, Mr Clegg was boosting to the BBC that the NHS
:08:52. > :08:57.reforms had been part of the Lib Dem manifesto. But by May of this
:08:57. > :09:03.year, his spindoctors were briefing the media that he was leading the
:09:03. > :09:07.charge for major changes to your legislation. You suspect he was
:09:07. > :09:12.opposing the reforms to bolster his position within his own party?
:09:12. > :09:15.I don't. I mean... Why was he doing it? A minute ago Andrew I was
:09:15. > :09:19.explaining why for example we reached the decision collectively
:09:19. > :09:22.after the election that we should abolish Strategic Health
:09:22. > :09:26.Authorities and Primary Care Trusts and it was because the Liberal
:09:26. > :09:31.Democrats in their manifesto and their policies were in favour of
:09:31. > :09:35.democratic accountability rather than unaccountable quangos. Why did
:09:35. > :09:39.he feel he to lead the charge for major changes? Well, because we
:09:40. > :09:44.were all in the spring of this year clear that we weren't taking people
:09:44. > :09:47.across the NHS with us to the extent that we wanted. They don't
:09:47. > :09:50.trust you? No, no, I don't think that's true.
:09:50. > :09:54.The polls show they don't trust you? That is not fair. If you go
:09:54. > :09:57.back and look, actually we took over ap number of years because I
:09:57. > :10:01.have been health spobes man for the Conservative Party for eight years,
:10:01. > :10:04.we took the Conservative Party from a place where the public and people
:10:04. > :10:09.in the NHS did not trust the Conservative Party to a place where
:10:09. > :10:12.they did, but trusting us was not the same thing as when we were in
:10:12. > :10:16.Government understanding and necessarily understanding the
:10:16. > :10:20.changes we were looking for because people don't like change and where
:10:20. > :10:25.they see change they question it and they want reassurance and it
:10:25. > :10:28.was responsible on our part to stop, to listen, to improve and to take
:10:28. > :10:33.people with us and that's what we did. Tens of thousands of people
:10:33. > :10:37.engaging with the process and actually saying we agree with the
:10:37. > :10:41.principles. We want the changes that the future Forum suggested.
:10:41. > :10:45.Have the Liberal Democrats been a help or a hindrance in this
:10:45. > :10:54.process? A help... LAUGHTER
:10:54. > :11:04.You are glad to have them on board? Think. Think. Look me in the eye...
:11:04. > :11:25.
:11:25. > :11:27.LAUGHTER Let me explain why.
:11:27. > :11:30.APPLAUSE A help because number one, I think
:11:30. > :11:32.if we hadn't taken the decision early on in writing the white paper
:11:32. > :11:35.that we needed to abolish Primary Care Trusts and Strategic Health
:11:35. > :11:38.Authorities we might not have done and we would have ended up not
:11:38. > :11:41.being able to save the extent of costs that we are going to be able
:11:41. > :11:43.to do because we're going to reduce the admin costs to the NHS by by
:11:44. > :11:46.45% and that's a great deal and it is not possible without taking out
:11:46. > :11:48.tiers of management. Secondly, the Liberal Democrats said and we've
:11:48. > :11:50.taken on board in the legislation bringing Local Government right
:11:50. > :11:52.into the heart of strategy for health commissioning and for health
:11:52. > :11:54.improvement locally. If you ask the question, what has the biggest
:11:54. > :11:57.impact on people's health? The answer generally isn't how many
:11:57. > :11:59.beds there are in the local local hospital. The answer is, what
:11:59. > :12:01.educational opportunity do they have? What kind of parenting do
:12:01. > :12:03.they have? What are their economic opportunities? What is their
:12:03. > :12:07.environment, transport and housing like? Local authorities, Local
:12:07. > :12:10.Government is often right at the heart of those issues in local
:12:10. > :12:13.communities that will the biggest impact on long-term health.
:12:14. > :12:17.All right. Is the legislation as it is now, is that it? There will be
:12:17. > :12:20.no further further major changes as far as you are concerned? Well, as
:12:20. > :12:24.far as the Lords are concerned they have an opportunity as they always
:12:24. > :12:26.I understand that. But as far as you are concerned do you want
:12:27. > :12:31.anymore changes? I am not seeking additional changes.
:12:31. > :12:34.All right. Sorry, with the exception there is,
:12:34. > :12:40.I think, one change that we signalled in the Commons which we
:12:40. > :12:45.have to make in the Lords. All right. Unlike unlike you, for
:12:45. > :12:48.obvious reasons, I was at the Liberal Democrat Conference in
:12:48. > :12:52.Birmingham and and Shirley Williams and others made it clear that they
:12:52. > :12:56.are they are after more changes in the Lords. Are you up for that? Do
:12:56. > :13:03.you have red lines through which you will not pass? I said at report
:13:03. > :13:07.stage, for example, that if there is any further way in which we can
:13:07. > :13:12.give further assurance that the Secretary of State will continue to
:13:12. > :13:16.have a legal as well as a political accountability for the continuation
:13:16. > :13:22.of a comprehensive NHS service available to all, based on need and
:13:22. > :13:24.not ability to pay, if we, if there is any additional way which we can
:13:25. > :13:28.provide that reassurance we will do Have you spoken to Shirley
:13:28. > :13:33.Williams? I had a meeting with her in the year.
:13:33. > :13:36.Recently? Not since... She will have the support of Labour to do so.
:13:36. > :13:40.This Bill could be mauled in the Lords?
:13:40. > :13:44.The Lords, it is their job to revise, but as far as... But will
:13:44. > :13:53.you make it clear that look you can revise, but this far and no
:13:53. > :13:57.We are very clear - we are reaching a stage now where there are
:13:57. > :14:01.particular issues that clearly Shirley has discussed with us,
:14:01. > :14:06.raised with us, doesn't appear to be wholly reassured. As far as I'm
:14:06. > :14:10.concerned, I have looked, along with my colleagues - including
:14:10. > :14:14.right across Government - and we have looked at the question of can
:14:14. > :14:19.we make it absolutely watertight that the Secretary of State in
:14:19. > :14:22.future has a legal responsibility to ensure the provision of a
:14:22. > :14:26.comprehensive Health Service in the way I described? Yes, we do.
:14:26. > :14:30.Abgskhully, on the basis of the -- actually, on the basis of the
:14:30. > :14:40.evidence and how the legislation is framed, Shirley should be reassured.
:14:40. > :14:45.Ron Forest thinks insurance-based Health Services give much better
:14:45. > :14:49.outcomes than a state monopoly NHS. Did you ever consider a switch to
:14:49. > :14:56.that system? The Conservative Party thought about this nearly a decade
:14:56. > :14:59.ago now. I think when I was first our spokesman for health, these are
:14:59. > :15:03.one of the issues that I looked at, along with others. The conclusion
:15:03. > :15:07.is that I don't think it is possible to deliver the kind of
:15:07. > :15:10.equal access to healthcare that you wish through an insurance system. I
:15:10. > :15:16.think as you look at insurance systems across the world, what you
:15:16. > :15:20.tend to see is that the transaction cost, the cost as it were of people
:15:20. > :15:25.being part of a healthcare system are very high. And people across
:15:25. > :15:28.the world - you can look at the Obama healthcare reforms - and what
:15:28. > :15:32.they are trying to do at the moment is to arrive at a place where
:15:32. > :15:37.through an insurance system they have universal coverage. We have
:15:37. > :15:42.got universal coverage. We have, through the NHS, universal
:15:42. > :15:45.membership of a health insurance system. So I don't think there is
:15:45. > :15:48.any intrinsic benefit of moving away from that. What I want to do
:15:48. > :15:53.is look at other healthcare systems and there are comparisons we need
:15:53. > :15:57.to make in terms of the outcomes. Last week, the Royal College of
:15:57. > :16:02.Surgeons published a report on high-risk emergency surgery. They
:16:02. > :16:08.said we look at our results here and we look at a research study
:16:08. > :16:11.that looked at the same kind of patients, older patients with
:16:11. > :16:15.abdominal surgery in America. The death rate here was four times that
:16:15. > :16:19.in America. That wasn't about the way in which the healthcare system
:16:19. > :16:22.was funded. It was about the way in which hospitals organised
:16:22. > :16:26.themselves to deliver the best possible care. That is what I want
:16:26. > :16:30.to focus on. I don't think there is any merit in changing the way we
:16:30. > :16:34.fund the NHS. I want to deliver the pwhest possible care. I understand
:16:34. > :16:39.that. -- The best possible care. understand that. We need to get
:16:40. > :16:45.through this quite quickly. Is it still coalition policy to ringfence
:16:45. > :16:51.health spending so that spending rises every year in real terms?
:16:51. > :16:55.Does that promise take into account the fact that inflation is now
:16:55. > :16:58.higher than anticipated when you made that promise? That promise
:16:58. > :17:03.takes into account the normal Government method of calculating
:17:03. > :17:07.inflation is by reference to the GDP deflator. If you take the
:17:08. > :17:17.latest index, the latest calculation of the GDP deflator -
:17:17. > :17:22.technical but it's a way of measuring the impact of inflation
:17:22. > :17:26.on public spending. That measure is not rising? That is not true. It is
:17:26. > :17:31.rising this year as compared to last year in real terms. Let me
:17:31. > :17:34.give you the latest figures. The new one taking into account that
:17:34. > :17:42.inflation is higher now, considerably higher. In the last
:17:42. > :17:51.financial year, 2010-2011, health spending was �103 billion, a little
:17:51. > :17:58.up on 2009-10. The next financial year, it would be �102 billion. By
:17:58. > :18:02.2012-13, it would be below �102 billion. So taking account the
:18:02. > :18:05.latest measures of inflation, on these figures, issued by the
:18:05. > :18:09.Treasury in August, you are not increasing spending in real terms?
:18:09. > :18:16.That is not true. I could have brought the figures... I have given
:18:16. > :18:22.you them. No, you haven't taken any account of the outturn data on
:18:22. > :18:27.expenditure in 2010-11. What does that mean? It means the amount
:18:27. > :18:33.spend by the NHS, the amount that is available to the NHS provided to
:18:33. > :18:37.the NHS this year and under the Spending Review through to 2014-15
:18:37. > :18:41.rises by a small amount in real terms. I'm going to post these
:18:41. > :18:45.figures on our website. I will arrange for us to post ours. I want
:18:45. > :18:48.you to comment on them. Applying these latest figures you are not
:18:48. > :18:53.increasing spending? I went through this. The King's Fund published an
:18:53. > :18:57.analysis which, as you have done, suggested it was going down a small
:18:57. > :19:04.amount. We have written, the Department on my behalf has written
:19:04. > :19:09.to the King's Fund giving them the data relative to the spend in 2010-
:19:09. > :19:13.11. When did you write? One of my officials would have written I
:19:13. > :19:18.think about six weeks' ago. Might not have had the latest figures?
:19:18. > :19:21.The OBR has not changed the GDP deflator figure since then.
:19:21. > :19:28.Treasury has looked at new ones. That is what I have done. We will
:19:28. > :19:37.decide that and people can go to the website. I will put up the data.
:19:37. > :19:45.Is it not a sign that inflation is not keeping pace and waiting lists
:19:45. > :19:50.have gone up? From G DP referral, the average waiting time was eight
:19:50. > :19:55.weeks. The latest data show the average waiting time for 8.2 weeks.
:19:55. > :20:00.It went down. You can take figures the way you want them. Let's take
:20:00. > :20:04.those who had to wait over 18 weeks for treatment in a hospital. In the
:20:04. > :20:09.last 15 months of a Labour Government, it was 316,000 people
:20:09. > :20:14.had to do that. In the first 15 months of your Government, it was
:20:14. > :20:18.380,000, a rise of 20%. That's not what you just said. The first point
:20:18. > :20:24.you made was waiting lists in fact... The point I'm putting to
:20:24. > :20:28.you, you said more people are waiting more than 18 weeks. Agreed?
:20:28. > :20:36.Well, it went up and now it's come down again. The operational
:20:36. > :20:39.standard in the NHS set from before the election was that 90% of
:20:39. > :20:43.patients should be seen and treated within 18 weeks. We are meeting
:20:43. > :20:47.that operational standard. In the latest data, the numbers seen
:20:47. > :20:52.within 18 weeks, the proportion seen went up compared to the
:20:52. > :20:57.previous month. In the last 15 months of the Labour Government,
:20:57. > :21:03.393,000 people had to wait more than four hours for A&E treatment.
:21:03. > :21:07.In the first 15 months of your Government, that's risen to 679,000.
:21:07. > :21:11.That is a 73% rise. But the point is that takes into account a period
:21:11. > :21:16.over a winter where we had an exceptional level of flu activity
:21:16. > :21:20.and we had an exceptionally severe winter. We had as a consequence...
:21:20. > :21:27.The last winter of a Labour Government was seriously cold as
:21:27. > :21:30.well. 2009-10, the country came to a halt. It was the wrong kind of
:21:30. > :21:34.snow. LAUGHTER The critical difference was how many patients
:21:34. > :21:38.went into high dependency or critical care units. We had many
:21:38. > :21:41.patients filling those units to the point where hospitals were not able
:21:41. > :21:44.to admit patients for routine surgery because they could not be
:21:44. > :21:49.confident that they would have critical care beds available.
:21:49. > :21:54.However you count it, the average... Let's go back to the point, the
:21:54. > :21:58.average time that patients on the latest data, the average time that
:21:58. > :22:03.patients waited for their operations is lower than it was at
:22:03. > :22:08.the last election and we are meeting and the NHS overall is
:22:08. > :22:12.meeting the operational standard, that is 90% of patients. Have you
:22:12. > :22:16.been to Wales? I go to Wales almost every month. Have you checked the
:22:16. > :22:20.figures in Wales? I know what you are saying because that is a
:22:20. > :22:26.Labour-run area. If we were in Wales we would talk about it. You
:22:26. > :22:31.don't have responsibility for Wales. Let me ask you this... One, two,
:22:31. > :22:37.three - it is seven out of ten patients in Wales get seen within
:22:37. > :22:47.18 weeks. Nine out of ten... What is your excuse for the following
:22:47. > :22:47.
:22:47. > :22:53.figure... APPLAUSE In July 2010, 3,75 5 people waited over six weeks
:22:53. > :22:58.for a test including a cancer test. In July of this year, it was 10,734.
:22:58. > :23:04.That is a rise of 186%. What is your excuse for that? We are
:23:04. > :23:08.continuing to meet all the targets that the Labour Party set... Your
:23:08. > :23:11.target was... You haven't moved on - we are meeting all the
:23:11. > :23:14.standards... I thought you were getting rid of targets? We are
:23:14. > :23:23.setting operational standards and we are continuing to meet them. We
:23:23. > :23:28.are doing more. What about hospital infections? 25% reduction in MRSA,
:23:28. > :23:35.17% reduction in C-diff in the last year. You didn't mention that one,
:23:35. > :23:39.did you? APPLAUSE What about patients who have been admitted
:23:39. > :23:44.into mixed-sex accommodation when they ought to be in single sex
:23:44. > :23:49.accommodation breaching the rules? Labour said they had abolished it.
:23:49. > :23:54.Untrue. We have calculated it. We asked for data for the first time,
:23:54. > :24:01.and we published it in December. It was 11,800 times in that month. We
:24:01. > :24:04.have brought it down 90% since then. APPLAUSE All right. Viewers and
:24:04. > :24:08.voters will decide if I have put one set of figures where it is not
:24:08. > :24:13.going well, you answer by another set. I don't agree with you at all.
:24:13. > :24:20.We are meeting the standard for our cancer waits. While we are talking
:24:20. > :24:23.about cancer... No, no. I'm sorry, Minister. You can't - I have
:24:23. > :24:27.another question. GPs earn over �100,000 a year, much more than an
:24:27. > :24:34.MP, four times more than the average wage. Are they worth it?
:24:34. > :24:37.GPs are worth more than MPs. right. APPLAUSE I don't think that
:24:37. > :24:46.is what can be regarded as controversial, Minister. You did
:24:46. > :24:51.ask the question. If they are being paid so much... GPs pay has not
:24:51. > :24:54.gone up since the contract came in in 2005. If they are being paid so
:24:54. > :25:00.much and you think they are worth it, why can you take your pet dog
:25:00. > :25:08.to see a vet at any time of the day or night, but you have to take time
:25:08. > :25:13.off work or wait days to see your GP? Because - it is interesting.
:25:13. > :25:18.Just yesterday David Cameron and I set out how we are going - we are
:25:19. > :25:25.going to bring GPs back to taking responsibility collectively for the
:25:25. > :25:30.service that is provided. By April 2013, we will have everywhere in
:25:30. > :25:33.England a 111 telephone system and online and I hope a mobile phone