:00:35. > :00:39.Your future is about our future. It Welcome to The Big Debate, choosing
:00:39. > :00:42.Scotland's future. It is a big choice and it will be made by
:00:42. > :00:47.Scottish voters in a referendum, but our politicians still need to
:00:47. > :00:51.sort out the wording and the workings of the port. Today, the
:00:52. > :00:58.First Minister published his referendum blueprint. -- vote. The
:00:58. > :01:02.UK Government has already produced alternative plans. To ask the key
:01:02. > :01:06.questions tonight we have a studio audience of more than 200 people
:01:06. > :01:12.from all across Scotland representing a cross-section of
:01:12. > :01:16.opinion. With the answers, we hope, Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:01:16. > :01:21.Nicola Sturgeon. The UK government's law officer for
:01:21. > :01:31.Scotland, the Labour leader in Scotland, Johann Lamont, and the
:01:31. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:36.writer and broadcaster, Lesley This is the first in what will be a
:01:36. > :01:41.series of debates on the road to the referendum, and we're
:01:41. > :01:46.broadcasting on BBC Radio Scotland, the BBC website, as well as BBC One
:01:46. > :01:54.in Scotland. Let's go straight to her first question tonight. It
:01:55. > :01:59.comes from Ashley Kennedy who is from Glasgow. Does democracy or the
:01:59. > :02:04.SNP benefit most from David Cameron's attempts to take control
:02:04. > :02:08.of the referendum. If the plan for David Cameron was to take control
:02:08. > :02:11.of the referendum, I think it would be ill-advised of him to do that.
:02:11. > :02:17.This referendum has to be shaped in Scotland and the people of Scotland
:02:17. > :02:24.have to have the opportunity to make the decision. The First
:02:24. > :02:27.Minister at has described issues of -- as brings questions of
:02:27. > :02:30.independent scrutiny. I think it is in everyone's interests regardless
:02:30. > :02:34.of where the art on the constitutional question, that they
:02:34. > :02:38.have a process we can all signed up for. There should be independent
:02:38. > :02:42.scrutiny and control by the Electoral Commission and so on, so
:02:42. > :02:45.that after the result, we do not end up in court and accept the
:02:45. > :02:48.verdict of the people of Scotland and then get back to working
:02:49. > :02:54.together to help make Scotland a better place for our children.
:02:54. > :02:57.to make clear, you as Labour leader stand shoulder to shoulder with
:02:57. > :03:00.David Cameron and Nick Clegg on this issue? I stand shoulder to
:03:00. > :03:09.shoulder in the same way that Alex Salmond stands shoulder to shoulder
:03:09. > :03:13.with Brian Souter and Tommy Sheridan. Let me bring in Jim
:03:13. > :03:16.Wallace. The point was that we were very clear that the Scottish
:03:16. > :03:19.Parliament did not have the power under the Scotland back to
:03:19. > :03:25.legislate to bring forward a bill for the referendum. No one wants
:03:25. > :03:30.this. I am sure neither Nicola nor any of the panellists what that to
:03:30. > :03:33.end up as a wrangle in the courts. That is why we said we should find
:03:33. > :03:39.a way forward and we want to discuss it. What we have seen in
:03:39. > :03:43.the last two weeks, we have made tremendous progress, and as Johann
:03:43. > :03:49.Lamont said, these are not strings. These are what normal people would
:03:50. > :03:55.think a reasonable conditions. go back to the question, does
:03:56. > :03:59.democracy or the SNP benefit from David Cameron's intervention?
:03:59. > :04:02.Democracy will benefit if we have a referendum that is decisive and I
:04:02. > :04:07.do not believe that would be the case if it were to proceed on the
:04:07. > :04:11.basis without loss. I do not think democracy would benefit if it ended
:04:11. > :04:16.up in court. We must have a situation where whatever the
:04:16. > :04:23.outcome, the other side has to follow. I remember the 1979
:04:23. > :04:29.referendum when it was thought to be read by having a 40% threshold.
:04:29. > :04:32.We cannot afford that in this case and that is why be dead put forward
:04:32. > :04:36.a way forward under the Scotland Act and I think we have made
:04:36. > :04:40.tremendous progress. There is some remarkable common ground between
:04:40. > :04:43.what is in a consultation paper today and what was in the
:04:43. > :04:48.consultation paper the United Kingdom published two weeks ago.
:04:48. > :04:53.we will get that in a moment. Nicola Sturgeon, is it not possible
:04:53. > :04:58.that you referendum could be challenged? If you could pick up
:04:58. > :05:02.and appoint. We are very clear that we think the Scottish Parliament
:05:02. > :05:06.has the confidence to hold an advisory referendum on independence,
:05:06. > :05:11.but we have also said we have no objections to the section 30 order
:05:11. > :05:15.that Jim Wallace talks about. What we object to, and many if not most
:05:15. > :05:21.people in Scotland share this, his Westminster tried to call the shots
:05:21. > :05:30.and that tax springs. Their terms for the referendum to be decided in
:05:30. > :05:35.Scotland and it is up to the people of Scotland to determine that. We
:05:35. > :05:40.are happy to talk can find common ground. Jim Wallace is right, that
:05:40. > :05:43.some common ground has emerged over the last few days. Is it not
:05:43. > :05:47.possible that you referendum without the legal authority he is
:05:47. > :05:50.offering you could be challenged in the court? He if that is his
:05:51. > :06:00.position and he wants to put that beyond any doubt, we are happy to
:06:01. > :06:01.
:06:01. > :06:06.do that. I am asking you. You are a lawyer, is it possible? We have
:06:06. > :06:10.laid out in the consultation today the question that we asked in a
:06:10. > :06:15.previous consultation. We have conceded that to ask the question
:06:15. > :06:18.we have set out in today's consultation, we would want to have
:06:19. > :06:22.that transfer of power. Could it be challenged in court without the
:06:22. > :06:26.legal authority? Any act of the Scottish Parliament can be
:06:26. > :06:31.challenged in court but to put it beyond doubt, let us have that
:06:31. > :06:38.power but let us not have Westminster tried to attach strings.
:06:38. > :06:44.That is unacceptable. Let us look at those things. You want to not
:06:44. > :06:50.just be the player but a. The referee. What is wrong with having
:06:50. > :06:57.the Electoral Commission involved? You were denouncing the Electoral
:06:57. > :07:02.Commission before you redeem it. have concerns. Westminster was to
:07:02. > :07:05.restrict the choice of the Scottish people. We do not want to restrict
:07:05. > :07:13.the opportunity of the audience to get in on the discussion. First of
:07:13. > :07:17.all, the lady on the far side there. I would not call abiding by the
:07:17. > :07:24.conditions of the Electoral Commission, stirrings.
:07:24. > :07:30.gentleman here. Even in north and south Sudan, when they were joined
:07:30. > :07:34.as the bustard Union of democracy, the North had to agree to the south
:07:34. > :07:40.having a referendum. Even though that has not worked out, that could
:07:40. > :07:49.be charged in court. Scotland are surely require a referendum to be
:07:49. > :07:53.acknowledged by Westminster. I am baffled by political parties which
:07:53. > :08:01.did only nine months ago on a platform of no referendum, not now,
:08:01. > :08:07.not ever, no wish to dictate the terms of the referendum in Scotland.
:08:07. > :08:12.Is that it seems to you, Lesley Riddoch? I think people watching
:08:12. > :08:15.this will be incredulous about a lot of this. For heaven's sake, do
:08:15. > :08:22.you think we are not capable and Scotland of holding the SNP to
:08:22. > :08:28.account? Why do we need you guys in Westminster to tell us of... You
:08:28. > :08:34.have had you say, to tell us how to run things. I was hoping I could
:08:34. > :08:40.finish the question. The point is, we are fully capable. Johann
:08:40. > :08:44.Lamont's point is the same. David Cameron has not help this one iota,
:08:44. > :08:48.and the message is to stay out of it. We can run it ourselves. There
:08:48. > :08:52.is a message to the SNP that the one man who dictate everything that
:08:52. > :08:55.happens and Scottish Parliament should be good enough to work
:08:55. > :09:01.across parties in Scotland to get a referendum without an agreement on
:09:01. > :09:10.the process. I called For cross- party talks and these have been
:09:10. > :09:13.refused by the First Minister. He wants to dictate the terms. We were
:09:13. > :09:18.around be one of a consultation process and Alex Salmond said he
:09:18. > :09:23.wanted to have the widest possible process and engagement with parties
:09:23. > :09:26.and Scottish communities. It is the case that opposition parties wanted
:09:26. > :09:30.to ensure there is independent scrutiny and control of the
:09:30. > :09:34.referendum, and it is disingenuous of Nicola to say this is about
:09:34. > :09:39.Westminster stepping in. It is about other voices in the Scottish
:09:39. > :09:42.Parliament being heard. She just agreed that there will be
:09:42. > :09:45.consultation. We had a not discussion this morning because I
:09:45. > :09:50.got a letter from the First Minister saying he did not want
:09:50. > :09:59.cross-party talks and in the chamber, he dead. There needs to be
:09:59. > :10:03.at genuine engagement, building consensus on the process, so that
:10:03. > :10:08.when we divide on the question of where Scotland should be, we can
:10:08. > :10:12.come back together after the referendum. Thus far, and today,
:10:12. > :10:17.there has been a suspicion that Alex Salmond thinks a referendum is
:10:17. > :10:22.for him and him alone to decide. We need to have that independent
:10:22. > :10:29.scrutiny. I think the fact there will be power to make it legal and
:10:29. > :10:33.binding helps all of us both up a I want to hear more from the audience.
:10:33. > :10:39.Can I ask who gave the SNP the legal advice that what they're
:10:39. > :10:45.doing is correct? I will get Nicola Sturgeon to pick up on that. Is it
:10:45. > :10:49.not rich for Lord Wallace to hold a position, being a Lib Dem, on a day
:10:49. > :10:53.that when David Cameron says that the European Court of Human Rights
:10:53. > :11:03.does not give us the decision we want, we will pull out of it? How
:11:03. > :11:04.
:11:04. > :11:09.can we trust what you are telling us, you do not believe it? Should
:11:09. > :11:14.independence actually go through, what will be the provision set in
:11:14. > :11:22.place if Scotland realise is in ten years' time that it does not work?
:11:23. > :11:26.Would there be a provision to rejoin the union in that case?
:11:26. > :11:31.don't think that will happen but none of us can bind future
:11:31. > :11:35.generations. After the Second World War, there were about 50
:11:35. > :11:40.independent countries in the world. Today, there are around 200 die and
:11:40. > :11:44.are not aware of many who want to go back the way. The SNP basically
:11:44. > :11:46.believe Scotland will be better if it is independent and that is
:11:46. > :11:53.difficult to have a national debate about what the strengths and
:11:53. > :11:59.weaknesses of both options are. Lesley Riddoch, would it be best if
:11:59. > :12:05.the courts sorted this out? If no UK politician is going to look at
:12:05. > :12:09.the fact of the SNP's election win, the fact that we are here, and is
:12:09. > :12:14.going to start playing petty politics, and we have really seen
:12:14. > :12:18.some of this lately with William Hague not promoting whisky now,
:12:18. > :12:24.supposedly. Malcolm Rifkind thinking England will go off and a
:12:24. > :12:32.half. It is as if a very petty side of UK politicians has been shown
:12:32. > :12:36.and actually, you need to raise your game. What we're trying to do,
:12:36. > :12:43.we did except that the Scottish National Party won a very important
:12:43. > :12:46.and historic victory last May. We recognise it, that in their
:12:46. > :12:50.manifesto was a commitment to hold a referendum. We wanted to make
:12:50. > :12:57.sure that was on a sound legal footing and to make something
:12:57. > :13:03.productive. That is fine, thank you very much, they get over it and do
:13:03. > :13:13.it. We will do it and what we'll do... Don't start criticising us
:13:13. > :13:15.
:13:15. > :13:19.Even if you do not get a deal on your terms? The so-called
:13:19. > :13:23.conditions that attached are ones that we are finding common ground
:13:23. > :13:27.on. There is nothing about conditions of strings being
:13:27. > :13:31.attached if what you are trying to do is to have been neutral
:13:31. > :13:41.Electoral Commission trying to oversee us with their experience.
:13:41. > :13:41.
:13:41. > :13:46.That is what I believe that millions of ordinary Scots want to
:13:46. > :13:56.see - a definitive result. Why do you not just give what it's in your
:13:56. > :13:58.
:13:58. > :14:01.gift to give -- what is in your deft to give -- gift to give?
:14:01. > :14:09.want to move forward on a constructor basis. We are having
:14:09. > :14:14.talks. We need to discuss the substance of why Scotland should be
:14:14. > :14:19.an independent country. Can I get a word then? I would like to ask what
:14:19. > :14:24.happens if the SNP goes ahead with its own plans without having
:14:24. > :14:27.reached a deal with the UK Government on legal authority? What
:14:27. > :14:31.happens if the legislation passes through the Scottish Parliament, is
:14:31. > :14:35.due to be sent to the Queen for signature, what do you do then?
:14:35. > :14:39.could get a any did and -- individual in Scotland to challenge
:14:39. > :14:44.it in the courts. I do not think that would be healthy or good for
:14:44. > :14:52.democracy. If it survives court challenges, at that point back,
:14:52. > :15:01.passed by that Scottish Parliament, do you a ferret to the Supreme
:15:01. > :15:10.Court -- do you refer it to the Supreme Court? You have already
:15:10. > :15:14.said that it would be unlawful, legislation beyond the Scottish
:15:14. > :15:18.Parliament. Would you refer it to the Supreme Court? I do not wish to
:15:18. > :15:26.embark on a hypothetical situation which I am doing my utmost to avoid.
:15:26. > :15:30.That would be failure. You would be unwilling to go to the Queen for
:15:30. > :15:34.signature? Would you allow that to happen? I have the statutory duty
:15:34. > :15:38.to look at every bill that passes through the Scottish Parliament. I
:15:38. > :15:42.do not wish to find ourselves in a situation where the scores to the
:15:42. > :15:46.Supreme Court. It would not be in the Scottish Government's interest
:15:46. > :15:54.or that of the United Kingdom. It would not be in the interest of the
:15:54. > :15:59.people of Scotland. That is why I think it is imperative. The sooner
:15:59. > :16:06.we get this thing sorted out and we can debate the issues, the far
:16:07. > :16:11.healthier it will be for democracy. Let us get on and debate the merits
:16:11. > :16:17.and otherwise dull independence. Would you let the Queen sign up?
:16:17. > :16:26.is not a question of whether I believe... You are a law officer,
:16:26. > :16:30.it is your job. almost any cities in in Scotland could take it to
:16:30. > :16:35.court before I got in the door. We cannot allow that to arise. That is
:16:35. > :16:40.why we need to talk. Nothing could be fairer than that. Another
:16:40. > :16:44.question. This is from Sheila Hayes in Clydebank. What good reasons are
:16:44. > :16:53.therefore having anything other than a straight yes or no question
:16:53. > :16:58.on the form? I was in Holyrood today and the politicians spent
:16:58. > :17:04.most time talking about Devo Max, the thing that none of them
:17:04. > :17:09.supports in-and-out driveway. is to have more power us in the
:17:09. > :17:16.devolved parliament short of independence. Yes. Should we change
:17:16. > :17:19.to a situation where we raise our own taxes? That is scary, that is
:17:19. > :17:25.where we're going with independence. Are we capable? Do we trust our
:17:25. > :17:29.cells? Do we think this country has the wherewithal to support itself?
:17:29. > :17:33.This is the Kelvin MacKenzie argument. He thinks we cannot. But
:17:33. > :17:38.that is at the heart of this - do we think we're capable now? There
:17:38. > :17:44.may be some people who do not want to go the Full Monty, if you like,
:17:44. > :17:48.to independence, but do not think where we are is satisfactory. There
:17:48. > :17:52.is an ability as far as to spend without the responsibility of
:17:52. > :17:55.raising the money. Personally, I think we ought to have that
:17:55. > :18:02.responsibility. I think that is what will make us grow as a set of
:18:02. > :18:09.people. I think there are few folk who will agree with that. I would
:18:09. > :18:14.quite like a full debate that does not get dictated by two extremes -
:18:14. > :18:19.one being the status quo, the other being independence. Those are the
:18:19. > :18:22.margins, that is the spectrum. Where is the middle of this debate
:18:22. > :18:26.and can those people would vote positively for something in this
:18:26. > :18:35.referendum or just end up kind of stuck? I know there are all sorts
:18:35. > :18:39.of technical problems in providing that capacity for people. I am fed
:18:39. > :18:44.up of being stuck in situations where I am saying no, when I am a
:18:44. > :18:49.positive person who believes in the country. I bet you there is nothing
:18:49. > :18:54.else. People are all positive about this country. We need a way to say
:18:54. > :19:00.yes to what we believe in. And that is more than two options. Johann
:19:00. > :19:03.Lamont. First of all, I think that the First Minister tried to
:19:03. > :19:07.misrepresent the position of those people who do not believe in
:19:07. > :19:13.independence or separation. I think it is a huge choice but it is not a
:19:13. > :19:16.choice between that and what we have now set forever Amber Day. The
:19:16. > :19:19.devolution settlement is something that has been a radical change in
:19:20. > :19:23.my lifetime. There were recent changes that have come in as well.
:19:23. > :19:29.I think there does have to be further discussion about how we
:19:29. > :19:38.make that work. For people to say that the only choice within the
:19:38. > :19:44.devolution settlement is Devo Max, is not fair. I think it is a good
:19:45. > :19:52.idea to create tax competition within the United Kingdom. -- I do
:19:52. > :19:56.not think. Do you believe in more powers for the Scottish Parliament?
:19:56. > :20:02.I think there is wasteful competition and the only people who
:20:02. > :20:06.benefit are big businesses. The power should live with it is most
:20:06. > :20:12.effective in delivering the social change we all aspire to. Should you
:20:12. > :20:16.not be championing the package of powers? What I am championing is
:20:16. > :20:22.the idea that we have that debate. What we should not let this debate
:20:22. > :20:26.on how devolution is sheet to be characterised as something to stop
:20:26. > :20:31.independence. It has a different life of its own. It is a debate
:20:31. > :20:37.about where power most effectively lives to deliver to the people of
:20:37. > :20:40.this country. I would take power into local government and beyond.
:20:41. > :20:47.How do people reach out and get control of their lives? Where is
:20:47. > :20:50.the best place for the power to lie? Where power lies is not about
:20:50. > :20:55.which institution feel stronger for having it, but how do we make sure
:20:55. > :20:58.that power is directed in the interest of the people? It is a big
:20:58. > :21:04.debate that cannot be picked on a ballot paper as if it was something
:21:04. > :21:08.to stop independence. All this business of a second question and
:21:08. > :21:13.the so-called Devo Max option, let's move on from that. Let us
:21:13. > :21:19.hear from the gentleman with the red tie. My problem with Devo Max
:21:19. > :21:23.is that it only comes into play if we reject independence. Then what
:21:23. > :21:27.we as the Scots are saying is that we want to be part of the Union,
:21:27. > :21:31.but we want to be able to dictate our position within that union. I
:21:31. > :21:36.do not understand what democratic right of mandate we have to do that.
:21:36. > :21:41.It would have to be tested across the UK. It is not a question purely
:21:41. > :21:46.for a Scottish referendum. It implies federalism and a complete
:21:46. > :21:55.reorganisation of the UK constitution. The gentleman on the
:21:55. > :22:00.end here. The SNP stood on a platform last year of independence.
:22:00. > :22:03.That, in my opinion, should be the only up -- the only question put to
:22:03. > :22:11.the Scottish people because you do not have a mandate for anything
:22:11. > :22:13.else. APPLAUSE Let me put that in Nicola
:22:13. > :22:21.Sturgeon. What is the reason for having
:22:21. > :22:23.another question? It is that there are lots of people who want
:22:23. > :22:28.significant powers for the parliament short of independence.
:22:28. > :22:32.It is not the outcome my favour. I came -- I favoured independence and
:22:32. > :22:36.I will campaign for that. If there is a significant body of opinion
:22:36. > :22:41.within Scotland that once that third option, if we can call it
:22:41. > :22:46.that, how can it possibly be democratic for any politician or
:22:46. > :22:51.any political party to say, no, you're not allowed to have that
:22:51. > :22:54.option? I think it is rather strange that the political parties
:22:54. > :22:57.that are now trying to restrict the choices of the Scottish people in
:22:57. > :23:02.this way are the same political parties who, for the last four
:23:02. > :23:08.years, blocked having any referendum at all. Let's be
:23:08. > :23:14.democratic about this and let the people decide. Don't you agree with
:23:14. > :23:16.the referendum expect who has been asked by the First Minister to
:23:17. > :23:25.advise on this that, if you have two different propositions, you
:23:25. > :23:28.could end up with muddy Waters? do not believe it is beyond our
:23:28. > :23:32.capability to come up with a way of doing that properly in a way that
:23:32. > :23:37.gets to a decisive outcome. have you not done so in today's
:23:37. > :23:45.consultation? We want to hear, firstly, whether there is a demand
:23:45. > :23:49.in Scotland to have that on the ballot paper. You frame the
:23:49. > :23:53.question in your last consultation, why not today? It strikes me that
:23:53. > :23:58.we are criticised if we pre-empt those consultations and glia
:23:58. > :24:02.criticised if we do not. We're trying to here -- and we are
:24:02. > :24:07.criticised. We are trying to hear the views of the Scottish people.
:24:07. > :24:11.It is not far as to decide the future of Scotland. We all have our
:24:11. > :24:15.opinions and they are all valid and legitimate. The people who should
:24:15. > :24:20.decide are the people of Scotland. I don't believe it's democratic,
:24:20. > :24:25.certainly not at this early stage, to seek to restrict the choice is.
:24:25. > :24:28.I think it is absolutely right that we have a straight question, yes or
:24:28. > :24:35.no to stop them becoming independent. The consultation
:24:35. > :24:38.document says that is the preference. Nikolai is talking
:24:38. > :24:43.about whether it is democratic. What we have heard over recent
:24:43. > :24:53.months from the Scottish government was that, if Devo Max was on the
:24:53. > :25:01.
:25:01. > :25:05.ballot paper, 85% supported. -- support it. If 51. -- give 50.1% of
:25:05. > :25:10.people supported independence that would trump the 85% I do not want
:25:10. > :25:16.to be in that situation. It would not be decisive. The debate would
:25:16. > :25:21.go on. The Scotland Bill before Westminster at the moment will
:25:21. > :25:25.deliver substantially more powers. But we can go beyond that.
:25:25. > :25:29.would you and your party deliver on that if not by putting a question
:25:29. > :25:34.on the ballot paper? Shehzad Tanweer different issues. One is
:25:34. > :25:37.whether Scotland should be independent or not. If the people
:25:37. > :25:40.of Scotland decide to continue to be part of the United Kingdom, I
:25:40. > :25:44.think we can have a lot more confidence to build on what is
:25:44. > :25:53.there in the Scottish Parliament. The Gentleman is right, it has
:25:53. > :25:59.implications for the rid Europe -- for the rest of the United Kingdom.
:25:59. > :26:02.Our Scottish leader has set up a commission. One final thing, it was
:26:02. > :26:08.the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats in the constitutional
:26:08. > :26:12.Convention who made the first step. The Calman Commission was the
:26:12. > :26:20.second step. It has been done by consultation and building a
:26:20. > :26:29.consensus. Nothing to do with the SNP? No. They opted out on both.
:26:29. > :26:33.Gentlemen and on that -- in the back row. Is all this talk of Devo
:26:33. > :26:42.Max not some way for the SNP to claim victory if the people of
:26:42. > :26:45.Scotland said no to independence? On the other side. Surely Devo Max
:26:45. > :26:55.is a completely separate issue and should only be asked if the
:26:55. > :26:59.independence referendum fails? We could ask if people wanted greater
:26:59. > :27:04.powers short of independence, but not at the same time. The Lady
:27:04. > :27:07.there. With such high unemployment and lots of different government
:27:07. > :27:12.departments receiving cuts, do you think it is appropriate to be using
:27:12. > :27:17.so much of the Government's resources on one issue? What do you
:27:17. > :27:25.think? No. The consultation today suggested that the process would
:27:25. > :27:31.cost around �10 million. That is for the whole referendum. It is a
:27:31. > :27:35.large sum of money, I am not saying it is not. The alternative vote a
:27:35. > :27:38.referendum last year was one that nobody wanted. I think this is an
:27:38. > :27:43.important decision. I think it is right that we debate how we get the
:27:43. > :27:49.powers in Arab -- in our Parliament to tackle unemployment and get the
:27:49. > :27:53.economy growing. That is what independence is about. Jim, do you
:27:53. > :27:58.believe in federalism, and, Johann, do you believe that the Scotland
:27:58. > :28:03.Bill is enough? It is a significant step forward. I want to engage in a
:28:03. > :28:13.debate with people across Scotland. I do not want to be nasty, but just
:28:13. > :28:14.
:28:14. > :28:19.Then you can frame a question to get the answer you want. I'll give
:28:19. > :28:22.you the answer I believe in and I want to be part of that discussion
:28:22. > :28:28.and not come out with a little box that the fines for other people
:28:28. > :28:36.what they should be like. I think I had the ball and stupidly passed it
:28:36. > :28:40.to you. It is my ball! We expect political parties to frame up
:28:40. > :28:50.solutions we can think about and you're not doing your bit and
:28:50. > :28:52.
:28:52. > :28:56.neither are you. We'll move on. Let me mention before we move on that...
:28:56. > :29:02.You can come in and just a minute but I want to mention there is a
:29:02. > :29:09.new Web page on BBC Scotland news where you can find all the details
:29:09. > :29:13.of BBC Scotland's coverage of the referendum. Let's take another
:29:13. > :29:20.question now from our audience. Still on the details of the
:29:20. > :29:27.referendum proposed by the Scottish government. What is the panel's
:29:27. > :29:31.opinion is on lowering the voting age to 16? As a general policy
:29:31. > :29:40.across the board, I think there is an argument for it but they do not
:29:40. > :29:45.think it is right as a one-off. It has a whiff of a bit of a fix their.
:29:45. > :29:50.There are other issues. For a start, it would not be all 16-year-old but
:29:50. > :29:54.only those on the register. You may find a lot of 16-year-old would
:29:54. > :30:02.find out they're not on the register to vote and I think that
:30:02. > :30:06.would be a serious way of misleading them. The other point is,
:30:06. > :30:12.what a preference would be, that the electorate that bought on a
:30:12. > :30:16.referendum would be the same electorate that votes on the
:30:16. > :30:22.Scottish Parliament and gave the SNP their majority last year, and
:30:22. > :30:29.the same franchise is a referendum in 1997. Its -- if it was good
:30:29. > :30:35.enough in the 2011, surely it is good enough for the referendum.
:30:35. > :30:45.What did Nick Clegg means when he said I'm a big supporter of... At
:30:45. > :30:49.
:30:49. > :30:56.16. -- votes at 16. I think there will issue should be looked at but
:30:56. > :30:59.not just in this particular case. What about this case for word?
:30:59. > :31:04.have a lot more than just for a referendum and involves a lot more
:31:04. > :31:09.than just Scotland. I think what Nicola has to say it is what is
:31:09. > :31:15.wrong with actually using the same electorate, the same franchise, as
:31:15. > :31:19.elected you and your colleagues in May last year. I have always argued
:31:19. > :31:23.that the voting age should be ward to 16. If we allow people to
:31:23. > :31:27.register for the army or get married and they -- have children,
:31:27. > :31:36.then we should allow them to vote in elections and especially in a
:31:36. > :31:43.referendum about the future of their country. Do you think that
:31:43. > :31:49.younger people were more likely to support independence? I do not know.
:31:49. > :31:55.Older people increasingly support independence and that Paul out
:31:55. > :31:59.tonight put support and opposition neck-and-neck. Support is
:31:59. > :32:04.increasing across the age spectrum. It is a matter of democratic
:32:04. > :32:08.principle. What can be wrong with giving people that contribute to
:32:08. > :32:16.our society at a say and how that society is run. The lady in the
:32:16. > :32:26.front row. You said he did not believe that people who voted for
:32:26. > :32:26.
:32:27. > :32:32.the SNP at the last election should have a say. Let him make it clear...
:32:32. > :32:39.If that's what you believe, that the way it came across. Do you
:32:39. > :32:44.believe anyone who turns 18, people who do not get in vote then, if he
:32:44. > :32:50.should not get the vote either? think there has been a
:32:50. > :32:54.misunderstanding. The franchise that was used for the election last
:32:54. > :32:57.year is the same as the local government franchise, and its
:32:57. > :33:06.everyone in Scotland over the age of 18 including European Union
:33:06. > :33:16.citizens but excluding non-EU citizens. It is the same as that.
:33:16. > :33:16.
:33:16. > :33:21.What age are you? I'm 20. You will get a vote. I'm 15 years old so and
:33:21. > :33:31.2014 I will be 17. What gives you the ability to deny my right to
:33:31. > :33:34.
:33:34. > :33:42.therefore shape the future of the country I am going to live in.
:33:42. > :33:47.ahead. The SNP keep going on about democracy and how great it is.
:33:47. > :33:50.Surely the real cases that the SNP know that 16 and 17 year-olds are
:33:50. > :33:57.more likely to vote for independence. It is political
:33:57. > :34:01.Engineering, not democracy. If that is true then that must also be the
:34:01. > :34:07.reason why a other parties are keen to stop 16 and 17 year-olds voting
:34:07. > :34:12.in the referendum. There is always political expediency to bring
:34:12. > :34:17.things forward. Why were women given the vote? To help with the
:34:18. > :34:21.war effort? When the moment comes, you have to match the excitement
:34:21. > :34:26.and possibilities and do a bit of a democratic spring clean. It is
:34:27. > :34:32.funny how often everyone wants 16 euros to vote when it is their pet
:34:32. > :34:38.project that might get put forward. When is that a letter every up --
:34:38. > :34:42.ever going to arise when apropos of nothing, we begin to think
:34:42. > :34:47.creatively about who we are and who is eligible to vote? If it does not
:34:47. > :34:52.come in tandem with a proposal like this, when lot come? I would say
:34:52. > :34:56.that is the same as the difficulty with the wall proposals about Devo
:34:56. > :35:02.Max, because I would expect you to have been thing about this for such
:35:02. > :35:06.a long time, also with federalism, that you ahead -- ready to hit the
:35:06. > :35:10.ground running now with things you intend to do. This suspicion when
:35:10. > :35:19.you cannot do it is that you need these guys in the middle to rub
:35:19. > :35:22.your up the wrong way before you focus on these democratic deficits.
:35:22. > :35:28.My life's work and politics has been to empower people on to give
:35:28. > :35:33.them a voice, so I am absolutely clear that what politics is about.
:35:33. > :35:36.One of the lessons we learned last May it was that we were not
:35:36. > :35:42.listening to the people of Scotland and they did not have confidence in
:35:42. > :35:46.us. It is bizarre to suggest that I should suggest my view immediately
:35:46. > :35:49.ahead evolution change and the problem with Devo Max as it is
:35:49. > :35:53.defining for all of us who believe in evolution, how that should be
:35:53. > :35:57.expressed. If the figures in Scottish independence are so strong
:35:57. > :36:01.and if we need those powers to address the fact that 200 people
:36:01. > :36:08.every day are losing their jobs in Scotland, why are we delaying
:36:08. > :36:11.another 1000 days to get those powers? It makes no sense. This is
:36:12. > :36:20.a member of a party that refused to vote for a referendum throughout
:36:20. > :36:24.the last four year term of a Parliament. Not true. I am not sure
:36:24. > :36:33.we should take too much of what Wendy Alexander was saying, she was
:36:33. > :36:38.contradicted within 24 hours. bottled it. I have never bottled
:36:39. > :36:42.anything in my life. We laid out a time when today for the referendum
:36:42. > :36:45.and Johann Lamont has looked at the time when, I am not sure if
:36:45. > :36:50.everyone in here will have had the opportunity, and that is the
:36:50. > :36:53.timescale that gives us a chance for a proper consultation. It
:36:53. > :36:58.allows the Scottish people to have a proper discussion about the
:36:58. > :37:07.biggest decision we will taken 300 years. I am looking forward to that
:37:07. > :37:14.debate. In 2009, they published a document and Alex Salmond said he
:37:14. > :37:17.wanted a referendum on St Andrews Day, 2010. When they were a
:37:17. > :37:22.minority government, they said they wanted it the following year, but
:37:22. > :37:26.now they have the chance, they want to put it off. You can have it both
:37:26. > :37:31.ways. When you say you didn't have the power to do it but thought it
:37:31. > :37:38.could be done next year, was that just posturing? Do you except the
:37:38. > :37:44.timetable? It is not a condition of your offer? We said we will discuss
:37:44. > :37:49.it. There was talk of an 18 months' time frame, has that got away?
:37:49. > :37:57.There is nothing in a consultation document. Bottom 2014 is OK for
:37:57. > :38:02.you? Come down, Glenn. Let me answer one question at a time. I
:38:02. > :38:05.would rather have it sooner than later. It is their interests are
:38:05. > :38:12.people of Scotland to get on with it and get this decided and back to
:38:12. > :38:16.the normal business of politics, addressing issues. This is a poster
:38:16. > :38:21.be about 16 and 17 year olds and Johann Lamont did not answer that
:38:21. > :38:25.question. I was not ask it. There is an interesting debate about 16
:38:25. > :38:30.and 17 year-olds. The force of the argument is that you can go to war,
:38:30. > :38:35.you should have a vote. The other challenge, and the challenge in our
:38:35. > :38:39.communities, why is the permits so poor for the Scottish elections?
:38:39. > :38:42.The problem is apathy and disengagement entirely from
:38:42. > :38:50.politics, which is not simply about giving somebody the right but
:38:50. > :38:54.giving them the feeling that it is worth their while. People rather
:38:55. > :38:58.feel there is a bitter political calculation going on. We have said
:38:58. > :39:08.we are open to the idea of 16 and 17 year-olds being involved in the
:39:08. > :39:11.
:39:11. > :39:20.political process. Just not now. Let's take another question from
:39:20. > :39:26.our audience. Where are you? To the economic benefits of independence
:39:26. > :39:32.it way the economic costs? Benefits outweighing the costs. Nicola
:39:32. > :39:36.Sturgeon. I do believe that Scotland has a wealthy country and
:39:36. > :39:42.we pay our way within the United Kingdom and more than pay our way.
:39:42. > :39:46.We are rich in so many ways, and assets, in terms of innovation and
:39:46. > :39:53.ingenuity other people. We could be much more prosperous and socially
:39:53. > :39:59.just as an independent country and I think the benefits are huge. I
:39:59. > :40:02.believe that with every fibre of my being. Let me give you more details.
:40:02. > :40:05.Looking at the FA last five years for which we have figures, and
:40:05. > :40:10.these are not SNP figures but government expenditure and revenue
:40:10. > :40:15.figures, the balance sheet for Scotland, if you like. In each of
:40:15. > :40:19.these five years, the UK as a whole was running at deficit. For four
:40:19. > :40:22.out of these five years, Scotland were running at a surplus. We are
:40:22. > :40:32.rich and we should be putting the resources of this country to work
:40:32. > :40:32.
:40:32. > :40:37.for the people of the country. think we're better off together as
:40:37. > :40:40.the United Kingdom. Can I just say, I am sick to the back teeth of
:40:40. > :40:44.always being told by SNP sportspeople that if for some
:40:44. > :40:48.reason you might suggest we are better off as part of the United
:40:48. > :40:53.Kingdom, you're talking Scotland down. There is no question of
:40:53. > :40:57.talking Scotland down. Scotland has so much to offer but I believe we
:40:57. > :41:02.can be far better off as part of the United Kingdom. Let me give you
:41:02. > :41:08.a simple point - figures out this week showed that Scotland's exports
:41:08. > :41:13.to the rest of the United Kingdom where �44 billion. The next country
:41:13. > :41:20.with the United Kingdom at three -- �3 billion. Why would you wish to
:41:20. > :41:27.disrupt the single market that has brought so much benefit. That is
:41:27. > :41:34.scaremongering. There she was again! If you actually want to
:41:34. > :41:37.advance the case, and have a decent debate, the minute you say
:41:37. > :41:41.something they do not agree with, you are accused of scaremongering.
:41:41. > :41:48.That is no basis for a decent debate. For you just said we would
:41:48. > :41:52.not be able to export the invested United Kingdom. That is nonsense.
:41:52. > :41:58.You're completely misrepresenting what I said. I am saying, you do
:41:59. > :42:05.not put up barriers. The single market of the European Union - what
:42:05. > :42:09.barriers? If you had a separate country, you have all the
:42:09. > :42:15.transactional costs. He what barriers a week talking about? A
:42:15. > :42:18.you say you want to stay with the pound Stirling. It is not unique,
:42:18. > :42:28.but there are not many barriers that actually adopt the currency of
:42:28. > :42:31.
:42:31. > :42:38.There are 60 countries out of the 200 in the world that operate a
:42:38. > :42:42.monetary union. Scotland's interest we would be imposed by the Bank of
:42:42. > :42:45.England. Alex Salmond was reported as saying yesterday that you would
:42:45. > :42:50.have the Bank of England bail Scotland out if there was any
:42:50. > :42:56.question of default. On what terms would they bail us out? Where are
:42:56. > :43:00.the barriers? I where is your independence? You would not have
:43:00. > :43:06.fiscal independence if you depended on the Bank of England being a
:43:06. > :43:11.lender of last resort. Would the Bank of England be the lender of
:43:11. > :43:18.last resort? If we were in a month treaty -- a monetary union we we
:43:18. > :43:21.could still have fiscal independence. Our position is to
:43:21. > :43:25.remain within Stirling. At an that would mean the Bank of England was
:43:25. > :43:34.the lender of last resort? Yes, but let me talk about the benefits to
:43:34. > :43:41.the rest of the UK. Can I ask a question? Basket in a minute. This
:43:41. > :43:49.was the number one issue that people ask questions about. Let us
:43:49. > :43:52.start right at the back. -- asked questions about. I find it
:43:52. > :43:55.astonishing that, on the panel tonight, none of them have any
:43:55. > :44:00.consensus whatsoever on the economic debates. It is one of the
:44:00. > :44:05.big issues facing this referendum. Over the next two-and-a-half years
:44:05. > :44:09.surely from the army of civil servants, academics and so on, you
:44:09. > :44:15.can finally put together one page of financial bat up but we can look
:44:15. > :44:22.at and walkout whether Scotland is a viable economic entity in its own
:44:22. > :44:25.right. Thank you. The lady here. Personally, I do not see that the
:44:25. > :44:29.economic thing is the biggest. Sometimes countries have money,
:44:30. > :44:36.sometimes not. We are in a world recession just now as the UK, so
:44:36. > :44:40.what is to say that Scotland would not benefit? Perhaps, at times, we
:44:40. > :44:46.would not be as well-off. The point is that we would be in charge
:44:46. > :44:49.ourselves and would be able to make our own decisions. I wonder if
:44:49. > :44:54.Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond had been brushing up their German.
:44:54. > :44:58.Do they not realise that by keeping so quiet about this that there is
:44:58. > :45:04.every possibility that we will not be able to stay within Stirling and
:45:04. > :45:14.will be forced to join the euro and then we will be governed by their
:45:14. > :45:18.lend -- by Berlin? The man in the back row. How ridiculous is it that
:45:18. > :45:24.we will have the Bank of England as the lender of last resort? I am
:45:25. > :45:32.sorry, that just seems ludicrous to me. One more from the audience. De
:45:32. > :45:35.gentleman with the glasses. similar point. There seems to be
:45:35. > :45:43.accorded to the buyers about the union and staying in it. I think it
:45:43. > :45:46.is a decision that people will make with their Hearts above all. You
:45:46. > :45:55.were talking about the psychological comfort of staying in
:45:55. > :45:59.the Union. If your argument for staying in it is psychological, so
:45:59. > :46:06.should you argument for leaving. Johann Lamont. People who really
:46:06. > :46:09.want to separate off from the United Kingdom, Alex Salmond has
:46:09. > :46:14.always had the same solution. It is not an economic or social argument.
:46:14. > :46:22.I do not feel oppressed by the English. I do not want to be
:46:22. > :46:28.liberated by Alex Salmond. I APPLAUSE.
:46:28. > :46:38.He said himself today that Scotland was not in need of liberation.
:46:38. > :46:46.does he want to create a situation where we have a race to the bottom
:46:46. > :46:50.and the people who suffer -- the people suffer because we have less
:46:50. > :47:00.money. Someone would need to explain to me why the partnership
:47:00. > :47:04.
:47:04. > :47:06.and co-operation that has lasted for 300 years should be separated.
:47:06. > :47:13.Wade someone to talk about the modern-day challenges that people
:47:13. > :47:17.face. The question was would be economic benefits outweigh their
:47:17. > :47:25.economic costs? I think that the partnership of the editing the
:47:25. > :47:29.makes economic sense. If the people of Scotland make that choice, that
:47:29. > :47:34.is their choice, but let us not have a false debate which says,
:47:34. > :47:37.this is the reality just now across the United Kingdom and over there
:47:37. > :47:42.is a big jar of honey and everything is absolutely perfect.
:47:42. > :47:46.Let us test economic questions. The question of the pound is a mink --
:47:46. > :47:52.is an important one. We might allegedly have independence but
:47:52. > :48:02.there is no accountability on monetary policy that we could
:48:02. > :48:08.influence. I do not see how that is to Scotland's benefit. We need
:48:08. > :48:14.Scotland's distinct voice in the partnership to be made strong.
:48:14. > :48:18.most depressing thing that I have read over the last couple of days
:48:18. > :48:22.was the scientific finding that suggests that Scottish children are
:48:22. > :48:26.doomed to fail before they are even born. We have not tackled the
:48:26. > :48:29.problems of inequality in our country. And that is with whatever
:48:29. > :48:34.economic system we have had, whatever political parties we have
:48:34. > :48:39.had within the Union of Great Britain. I would like, before I
:48:39. > :48:44.pass out of his life, to see that one tackled. In fact, that is the
:48:44. > :48:47.only one I would like to see tackled. As long as we tackle it
:48:47. > :48:52.for children across the United Kingdom. It is not just the
:48:52. > :48:59.Scottish problem. Do you think, do one, but that will be tackled well
:48:59. > :49:03.by people who currently want to slash benefits? Absolutely not. My
:49:03. > :49:08.problem with David Cameron is that he is a Tory, not that he is
:49:08. > :49:12.English. The question is: Can we create a political process which
:49:12. > :49:16.tackles social justice across the whole of the United Kingdom? I do
:49:16. > :49:24.not want to limit my ambitions to make children within Scotland
:49:24. > :49:30.better off. I believe the United Kingdom... No, but if you look at
:49:30. > :49:34.Norway, you have exactly a different situation where you have
:49:34. > :49:39.much better outcomes. When they became independent in 1905, the
:49:39. > :49:49.average male life expectancy was 48. They had no oil, nothing. The point
:49:49. > :49:49.
:49:50. > :49:52.that was made earlier was true. If Scots think we should become
:49:52. > :50:02.independent be better off, we probably will not be. There is
:50:02. > :50:10.nobody that I can think of who did it differently.
:50:10. > :50:18.And thank you very much. I want to squeeze in another question while
:50:18. > :50:23.we still have time. Assuming Scotland votes for independence,
:50:23. > :50:28.would Scots be able to keep their existing British passports or would
:50:28. > :50:34.we be required to get Scottish passports? As it happens, I have a
:50:34. > :50:41.British passport here. This is what you get at the moment. Would it be
:50:41. > :50:45.of any use at all in an independent Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon? We would
:50:45. > :50:51.have a Scottish passport, but my passport says EU as well as British
:50:51. > :50:54.citizen. That is the point - we have right of free travel. We can
:50:54. > :50:58.go to the Republic of Ireland without a passport. I do not think
:50:58. > :51:02.that the debate should be about passports or border controls. That
:51:02. > :51:05.is more of the nonsense we have heard down the years. It should be
:51:05. > :51:10.a positive debate about the positive relationships we can have
:51:10. > :51:20.with others. What do you mean by dual citizenship, the concept you
:51:20. > :51:22.
:51:22. > :51:26.propose? Our concept of citizenship is inclusive. Scotland is not full.
:51:26. > :51:30.People who live here would have Scotty citizenship and other people
:51:30. > :51:35.could apply. So there would be two passport? People could have that
:51:35. > :51:45.choice. I suspect most people in Scotland would be proud to carry a
:51:45. > :51:45.
:51:45. > :51:52.Scottish passport. APPLAUSE Jim Wallace, with the rest
:51:52. > :51:57.of the United Kingdom be happy to continue issuing UK passports to
:51:57. > :52:01.people in Scotland's it is one of the imponderables.
:52:01. > :52:06.Citizens of the Republic of Ireland have always had some sort of
:52:06. > :52:14.preferential right to vote, even before European Union citizens had
:52:14. > :52:19.it. In that sense, it could well be that Scottish citizens butt it is a
:52:19. > :52:27.hypothesis I do not necessarily accept. The important point is, and
:52:27. > :52:30.I think everyone will agree, we want to get on and have a debate
:52:30. > :52:34.about what the issues are and what the position would be about
:52:34. > :52:43.citizenship. I think the sooner we can have that kind of debate but
:52:43. > :52:46.might we are doing it now. Of course we are, and more of it. I
:52:46. > :52:53.think it is important that people know what the prospectus is. It
:52:53. > :53:00.should not just be by assertion, it should be about detailed analysis.
:53:00. > :53:03.Best of both worlds, Johann Lamont? I would rather concern today that
:53:03. > :53:07.the First Minister said that people who live in Scotland care most
:53:07. > :53:13.about Scotland. In fact, a lot of our young people are having to be
:53:13. > :53:15.Scott and for work. They are not leaving because they do not have a
:53:16. > :53:20.commitment to their country. I think the First Minister has to be
:53:20. > :53:24.careful in that regard. I do not get excited about passports. But
:53:24. > :53:31.then, I do not get excited about boundaries. We operate across
:53:31. > :53:35.boundaries, we come together. The technicalities of which passport to
:53:35. > :53:39.have I will lead to those who get really excited about it. I have to
:53:39. > :53:45.say that I am the same. I grew up in Northern Ireland and we
:53:45. > :53:55.regularly went across the border. This is a country where people have
:53:55. > :53:56.
:53:56. > :54:03.got fairly exercised about national issues. This seems to me to be not
:54:03. > :54:08.what this debate is about. If it is about trappings and passports,
:54:08. > :54:13.please, let's move on to the heart. This is not what we want to talk
:54:13. > :54:16.about. Let us see what the audience wants to talk about at this stage.
:54:16. > :54:20.The gentleman here. Unionist parties are falling into the same
:54:20. > :54:24.mistake they made in May of fighting a negative campaign with
:54:24. > :54:27.the scaremongering tactics. Surely they should do their job and fight
:54:27. > :54:37.for what they believe them and express why the union is so
:54:37. > :54:45.beneficial, if that is their opinion. Gentlemen at the side.
:54:45. > :54:49.millions of people around the world, the union means imperialism and war.
:54:49. > :54:55.We have weapons of mass destruction in Faslane. These are the issues we
:54:55. > :55:00.need to sort out. These are the issues that an independent Scotland
:55:00. > :55:08.can get rid of. We want to make them a political history. The
:55:08. > :55:16.galley in grey here looks like a relic and he talks like a relic.
:55:16. > :55:19.APPLAUSE I think the issue of passports does matter because, if
:55:19. > :55:24.you're travelling overseas, at present it you have a problem you
:55:24. > :55:28.can go to a British embassy. Is it the SNP's intention to
:55:28. > :55:32.franchise the British Embassy in the same way they will abdicate
:55:32. > :55:36.their fiscal policy to the Bank of England?
:55:36. > :55:40.The lady in the back row with the glasses. It is all very well
:55:40. > :55:46.talking about passports and being proud of holding one, but many of
:55:46. > :55:50.us who are unemployed, it is not money that comes easily for the �60
:55:50. > :55:58.or �80 you have to pay to a Ford one to have that privilege. Thank
:55:58. > :56:00.you very much for all those contributions. One last question.
:56:00. > :56:10.Has Alex Salmond annoyed the English so much that they are going
:56:10. > :56:12.
:56:12. > :56:17.to want rid of us anyway? APPLAUSE He managed to annoy quite
:56:17. > :56:21.a lot of Scottish people! On the question of negativity, it
:56:21. > :56:30.was the First Minister's Ministerial Mayday who said that
:56:30. > :56:35.people who disagreed with the SNP - - Ministerial aide who said that
:56:35. > :56:38.those who disagreed with the SNP would against toddler. I want a
:56:38. > :56:45.positive bargaining. My belief is that it is about co-operation and
:56:45. > :56:49.partnership in tough times. Lesley Riddoch. Simon Hughes said this was
:56:49. > :56:53.an opportunity for the whole of the UK to freshen up and look up what
:56:53. > :56:57.is basically an non functioning democracy at the moment. The
:56:57. > :57:02.English need a parliament. The West Lothian Question is as much to do
:57:02. > :57:06.with the English not having a distinct place to air via issues as
:57:06. > :57:10.it is anything to do with us. This is an opportunity that could be a
:57:10. > :57:15.tremendous one for England, and it is opening a Pandora's box.
:57:15. > :57:24.Wallace. I think it is an opportunity to have a wider debate.
:57:24. > :57:28.One of the problems with an English parliament is that it would be as
:57:28. > :57:32.centralised as the Westminster Parliament. A growing appetite in
:57:32. > :57:40.England for Scottish independence? I hope that is not a tactic,
:57:40. > :57:44.although one sometimes wonders if it is. There are people in the
:57:44. > :57:48.other nations of the 80 Kingdom who value it and you want to continue
:57:48. > :57:55.to be a part of it. Final point from Nicola Sturgeon. Alex Salmond
:57:55. > :57:58.was in London last night. Winding up the English? No, making the
:57:58. > :58:02.point back that there were benefits for the English. I would be furious
:58:02. > :58:08.that there are Scottish MPs who can vote in the House of Commons to
:58:08. > :58:11.impose tuition fees on English students, to privatise the health
:58:11. > :58:15.service in England. If Scotland is independence then Scotland and
:58:15. > :58:19.England will be the best of friends and the closest of allies, but it
:58:19. > :58:23.will be a modern relationship, that of eagles. That is the very last