:00:38. > :00:42.It is about Scotland's future, Good evening and welcome to the
:00:42. > :00:48.programme. This is the second in a series of discussions in the run-up
:00:48. > :00:53.to the vote on independence in 2014. What ever you hope and concerns,
:00:53. > :00:58.expectations or reservations, we will give them an airing. We have a
:00:58. > :01:04.studio audience with people from across Scotland, representing a
:01:04. > :01:14.cross-section of opinion. Fighting for taking part. Here to answer
:01:14. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:35.them are Patrick Harvey. Nicola First question. I would like to ask
:01:35. > :01:40.the panel were living in an independent Scotland could do for
:01:40. > :01:46.me. What living in an independent Scotland could do for Karen and
:01:46. > :01:51.others like her? First and foremost, independence means the big
:01:51. > :01:55.decisions about Scotland and the future of the country, how
:01:55. > :02:01.resources are spent, are taken by people in Scotland. We are a rich
:02:01. > :02:05.country with a skilled population, abundant natural resources.
:02:05. > :02:10.Independence gives us the ability to use those resources to create
:02:10. > :02:16.wealth for families, individuals and communities, to improve social
:02:16. > :02:19.justice and to take decisions do not have Trident nuclear missiles
:02:19. > :02:24.on the River Clyde but instead, use those resources to benefit people
:02:24. > :02:28.in Scotland. It is about putting the power and the decision-making
:02:28. > :02:36.in the hands of people who live here, the people who care most
:02:36. > :02:44.about the future of Scotland. power already lies with the people
:02:44. > :02:50.of Scotland. We will have disagreements or myth and up to
:02:50. > :02:54.date. -- on this panel. We all love Scotland and we just had different
:02:54. > :03:00.ideas about what is in the best interests of the country. Why do
:03:00. > :03:08.not want this to be a false choice between who loves Scotland and who
:03:08. > :03:13.hits the Tories. Scotland has played an important part in
:03:13. > :03:18.creating the success of the UK. 300 years of shared history, should
:03:18. > :03:23.security ensured prosperity. Scotland was the founder of the
:03:23. > :03:31.Bank of England, a Welshman created the NHS, an English man at the
:03:31. > :03:34.Welsh -- the welfare state. Scotland's best interests lie
:03:35. > :03:39.economically, politically and socially been part of the UK. We
:03:39. > :03:48.can stand stronger in partnership as part of the UK. That is a
:03:48. > :03:56.positive case for the UK. Can I ask, what do you hope an independent
:03:57. > :04:02.Scotland can do for do? I hope that an independent Scotland can give
:04:02. > :04:08.Bath a much more prominent economy and make life better for the people
:04:08. > :04:16.of Scotland. Better jobs, better conditions as well, living
:04:16. > :04:20.conditions. Is that is what is going to happen? We do not know. We
:04:20. > :04:24.do not know what is going to happen to the Scottish economy if we vote
:04:24. > :04:29.for independence. We do not know what is going to happen to the
:04:29. > :04:34.Scottish or British economy if Scotland stays in the UK. We are in
:04:34. > :04:39.challenging economic times. We have seen the failure of a centre-right
:04:39. > :04:43.neo-liberal economic model which has been the flavour of choice of
:04:43. > :04:48.UK governments, whether it is Labour or the Tories, with or
:04:48. > :04:51.without the Liberal Democrat helpers. The opportunity to break
:04:51. > :04:58.our dependence on that economic model is the opportunity to make
:04:58. > :05:02.our own successes or failures. None of us can tell you all know what is
:05:02. > :05:06.going to happen to the local economy, the national economy or
:05:06. > :05:12.the global economy over the next few years. The opportunity that we
:05:12. > :05:18.have is to take a new direction, to start working out some choices. It
:05:18. > :05:24.is important we debate is openly. By the time we come to the
:05:24. > :05:29.referendum, more than two years away, we have specific proposals
:05:30. > :05:34.and the pro independence parties, myself and the SNP and others, and
:05:34. > :05:38.people who are asking you to vote Yes, need to be much more specific
:05:38. > :05:44.by the time we get to the referendum, rather than sign it can
:05:44. > :05:47.be all things to all people and all the policy decisions will be taken
:05:47. > :05:53.after the referendum. We need to be clear and give people a positive
:05:53. > :05:56.reason to vote yes. To me, that means transformation of politics
:05:56. > :06:05.and moving away from the centre right dead hand that we have seen
:06:05. > :06:12.over the last 30 years, gripping the UK economy and politics.
:06:12. > :06:17.gentleman on the front row. have just brain -- blamed the new
:06:17. > :06:22.liberal centre-right, but go back to 2007. Alex Salmond wrote a
:06:22. > :06:32.letter to go up -- to Fred Goodwin. That was picked up by Channel 4
:06:32. > :06:34.
:06:34. > :06:40.News, and in it he offered every assistance for Fred Goodwin in
:06:40. > :06:44.eight fired will take over. That led to a financial collapse. The
:06:44. > :06:51.Royal Bank of Scotland would have been a Scottish bank under
:06:51. > :06:55.independence. In 2008, Alex Salmond travelled to Harvard and made his
:06:55. > :07:05.infamous CAB the Gleision speech, wishes mysteriously missing from
:07:05. > :07:10.
:07:10. > :07:18.the SNP website. -- his infamous Celtic Tiger speech. Alex Salmond
:07:18. > :07:23.said there we should be in the euro. At the moment, he is saying none of
:07:23. > :07:33.these things. The centre-right neo- liberal agenda that may well have
:07:33. > :07:34.
:07:34. > :07:42.failed, Alex Salmond bought into that. We will be discussing a few
:07:42. > :07:50.of these subjects in more detail later. I would like to think we
:07:50. > :07:54.have all learned lessons from the banks. Remember, they collapsed
:07:54. > :08:01.under the UK. No previous Labour government gave Fred Goodwin a
:08:01. > :08:05.knighthood which he has had taken away from him. We will not be
:08:05. > :08:09.taking any lessons from the Conservatives about banking. Norway
:08:09. > :08:19.is a richer country than the United Kingdom, it has one of the lowest
:08:19. > :08:22.
:08:22. > :08:28.rates of unemployment across the whole of Europe. It is an example
:08:28. > :08:34.of a successful country. A little while ago, we heard in the NHS as
:08:34. > :08:38.the reason to stay in the UK. It is being broken up and privatised in
:08:38. > :08:47.England. It is only because we have Paris over the NHS in Scotland that
:08:47. > :08:57.we are able to keep up. I would like to go back to the First Lady's
:08:57. > :09:02.question. Not only do we share of the advantages, but we also share
:09:02. > :09:06.risks. When you are looking at the world economy at the moment, the
:09:06. > :09:12.European economy, you do not just look at the risks that we share and
:09:12. > :09:16.the stability we share in a military sense, you also look at it
:09:17. > :09:20.economically. You say yes, what happened to the banks was terrible
:09:20. > :09:27.and it was only because we had the might of a larger nation that we
:09:27. > :09:36.were able to absorb that and ensure that people did not lose their
:09:36. > :09:40.deposits. In Iceland, they have had democratic reform in the banking
:09:40. > :09:50.system. There has no -- be no movement towards banking reform
:09:50. > :09:57.here. There is huge reform going on in the banking sector right now.
:09:57. > :10:01.Not one megabyte! We are making sure this sort of thing does not
:10:01. > :10:06.happen again right across Europe. We are looking at liquidity within
:10:06. > :10:12.banks. To say that nothing has happened is nonsense. Let's hear
:10:12. > :10:18.from this gentleman. Is it not the point that people across Scotland
:10:18. > :10:24.are asking the SNP, whose party has been in existence for 80 years,
:10:24. > :10:29.they still do not have substantial answers to questions on the economy,
:10:29. > :10:34.defence and welfare and time after time, the SNP have no answers? They
:10:34. > :10:44.are asking us to say yes to a proposition with no detail
:10:44. > :10:46.
:10:46. > :10:51.whatsoever. Is that not a bit cheeky? This gentleman. I would
:10:51. > :10:56.like to come back to beat remarks about shared prosperity. I come
:10:56. > :11:03.from an Unnefer ment blackspot. We do not seek sure prosperity. We
:11:03. > :11:11.would do better in an independent Scotland, to be honest. This
:11:11. > :11:13.gentleman. At the start, Nicola Sturgeon said it was under the UK
:11:13. > :11:18.Government that the Bank of Scotland and various other banks
:11:18. > :11:22.went through troubles but then again, we have also got Greece and
:11:22. > :11:28.spraint and throughout Europe, countries and banks are failing. Is
:11:28. > :11:34.that the UK's fault as well? It is a global economy and would Scotland
:11:34. > :11:44.not be better off as part of the UK to get through that and have more
:11:44. > :11:44.
:11:44. > :11:50.security in troubled times? Thank you. This will be a recurring theme.
:11:50. > :11:53.Let's go on to question two. issue the Scottish people want to
:11:53. > :12:03.know about is whether in 10 years' time, Scotland will be financially
:12:03. > :12:05.
:12:05. > :12:11.better off if they leave the union. Please can we have straight answers.
:12:11. > :12:15.Will Scotland be financially better off? It would be a mistake to vote
:12:15. > :12:20.yes or no on the basis of whether you think individually, you might
:12:20. > :12:28.be a bit better off or worse off. The question is not just about
:12:28. > :12:31.whether we get richer. We have had, for decades, when we had economic
:12:32. > :12:36.growth and when we had recession, we have had growing inequality, we
:12:36. > :12:40.have had profound damage to the environment, we have had failure on
:12:40. > :12:48.social justice and other things that give people quality of life.
:12:49. > :12:55.That is at a time when GDP was going up or down. To meet -- to me,
:12:55. > :13:02.and this is within the Green movement as well, the opportunity
:13:02. > :13:06.to redefine by what we mean by economic success is not just about
:13:06. > :13:10.whether we are richer or poorer, but whether we can create a more
:13:10. > :13:15.cohesive society in which we look after each other and our
:13:15. > :13:19.environment better, and there are so many examples of policy areas
:13:19. > :13:25.where the Scottish Parliament simply is bound at the moment,
:13:25. > :13:29.cannot act to achieve a more equal society, cannot act to achieve some
:13:29. > :13:38.of the business regulation that is necessary to stop people and the
:13:38. > :13:41.environment being exploited. I think it would be a mistake to vote
:13:41. > :13:50.on this question just in terms of prosperity, it goes deeper than
:13:50. > :13:54.The question comes in two parts. There is a question about whether
:13:54. > :13:59.individuals would be richer or not. That is to do with opportunities,
:13:59. > :14:02.jobs for young people coming out of schools. I notice when the pro
:14:02. > :14:06.independence launch was on Friday, there was not a single businessman
:14:06. > :14:15.I saw anywhere near the stage. I thought it was an interesting
:14:15. > :14:19.comment on how the... RBS did such a good job as well.
:14:19. > :14:22.I'm looking at that. Also it's about countries being able to pay
:14:22. > :14:28.their bills and looking after the least advantaged in our society.
:14:28. > :14:34.You are looking for facts and figures. Over the last ten years,
:14:34. > :14:38.the wealthier spend in Scotland has been bigger every single year than
:14:39. > :14:45.the entire tax from all North Sea oil revenues. Even Alex Salmond
:14:45. > :14:50.says he does not want all oil revenues. For 2010, that number was
:14:50. > :14:53.three times the welfare spend in Scotland was three times the entire
:14:53. > :14:57.North Sea oil tax take. What people have to bear in mind when they look
:14:57. > :15:02.forward is not just figures on debt and deficit, also about things paid
:15:02. > :15:11.for across the whole of the UK that Scotland will be paying for by
:15:11. > :15:17.itself, things like welfare. Things like defence spend, things like
:15:17. > :15:26.subsidies to wind farms. So there is a lot of facts and figures we
:15:26. > :15:31.have to drill down on. Facts and figures we're not get from the pro
:15:31. > :15:35.separatist campaign. At this point, it might be useful if we check with
:15:35. > :15:41.the entire panel - can anybody actually say at this stage, hand on
:15:41. > :15:45.heart, if we will be better off or not, given nobody can predict the
:15:45. > :15:50.coming cycle? The success of any country anywhere in the world is
:15:50. > :15:54.how good its Government is and how good the decisions are. I believe
:15:54. > :15:57.with every fibre of my being that an independent Scotland has the
:15:57. > :16:05.potential to be financially better off as an independent country than
:16:05. > :16:11.we are right now. Let's talk facts and figures. The Government
:16:11. > :16:15.expenditure in revenue... Not published by politicians, but by
:16:15. > :16:18.civil servants, shows right now if Scotland was independent would be
:16:18. > :16:23.�500 for every person in Scotland better off than right now. There
:16:23. > :16:30.are some facts and figures. Ruth talks about welfare spending and
:16:30. > :16:34.things like that. What she forgets to tell you is each and every one
:16:34. > :16:38.of you who pays for taxes currently pays for these things. We more than
:16:38. > :16:43.pay our way in the United Kingdom. For any politician, or for anybody
:16:43. > :16:52.else to argue in any way that Scotland is supbsised and could not
:16:52. > :16:58.stand on -- subsidised and could not stand on our own two feet is
:16:58. > :17:03.not being honest with you. cannot say Scotland is a net
:17:03. > :17:08.contributor, because we are running a debt at the moment, but actually
:17:08. > :17:12.Scotland contributes more for its per capita share. Of course
:17:12. > :17:16.Scotland can be a success as a country.
:17:16. > :17:21.The interesting point is Nicola, when Nicola answered the question,
:17:21. > :17:26.she gave the example of Norway. Alex Salmond was quoted saying he
:17:26. > :17:30.would give an arm and a leg to have the economic problems of Ireland.
:17:30. > :17:36.The reality is while I disagree with Patrick when he says he
:17:36. > :17:41.supports independence, at least he says what he believes. That's not
:17:42. > :17:47.what we see from Nicola or the SNP. It is not credible to say we want
:17:48. > :17:55.true independence, but at the same time we will give our... Let me
:17:55. > :17:59.finish my point. To say we will make our biggest business partner,
:17:59. > :18:02.our biggest competitor. We will set our interest rates and, set our
:18:02. > :18:06.spending limbs - that's not credible economic policy. That is
:18:06. > :18:09.what you see in every single poll that is done. The vast majority of
:18:09. > :18:19.people say they believe we are better off as part of the UK and
:18:19. > :18:22.
:18:22. > :18:27.want to remain such. I am from Aberdeen actually. My point,
:18:27. > :18:33.everybody likes freedom of speech - this is good, everybody likes it.
:18:33. > :18:39.We can at this moment put the position in the world. If it is
:18:39. > :18:44.actually to become an independent country, become second in position
:18:44. > :18:48.- what will be the position of the Scotland at that time?
:18:48. > :18:53.OK, thank you. This gentleman in the middle of the room here. Yes,
:18:53. > :18:59.you, Sir. Thank you. I think hafr Patrick Harvie is
:18:59. > :19:05.right when he says there are bigger issues than the economic ones.
:19:05. > :19:10.Surely that being the case the devolution max option gives us
:19:10. > :19:17.benefits with few of the risks. I ask for a show of hands here. How
:19:17. > :19:21.many people here think devow Max should be an option on the
:19:21. > :19:26.referendum ballot. That is interesting. You are divided on
:19:26. > :19:32.that. I would like to ask Ms Sturgeon, in particular, your party
:19:32. > :19:36.and Mr Salmond was a while talking about the Bank of England having -
:19:36. > :19:41.contributing to our interest rates and things. How can we be an
:19:41. > :19:46.independent country if they are, you know, involved in our economic
:19:46. > :19:50.policy? How does that make us an independent country? Let's pick up
:19:50. > :19:53.that question also with black blbg black. This is something you were -
:19:53. > :19:58.- with Nicholas Black. This is something you were interested in.
:19:58. > :20:04.Would an independent Scotland be in the euro or stick with sterling and
:20:04. > :20:08.would it make it truly independent? The issue about what currency we
:20:08. > :20:13.use and how much independence we can have if monetary policy is tied
:20:13. > :20:19.in another country? We want to stay in sterling. We think there would
:20:19. > :20:24.be advantages to the UK, because our exports, our oil and gas, our
:20:24. > :20:28.whisky exports, our range of other exports make a massive contribution
:20:28. > :20:36.to the UK balance of payments. There are advantages in both ways.
:20:36. > :20:41.The real levers we need with independence to get our economy
:20:41. > :20:45.growing, to create wealth are fiscal levers. We don't have any
:20:45. > :20:50.meaningful ones at the moment. That is what we teed to be independent
:20:50. > :20:55.and get the economy -- need to be independent and get the economy
:20:55. > :21:02.moving. Tony Blair used to argue to go into the euro. You are not
:21:02. > :21:06.saying that now, are you? You said we should join the euro. Now you
:21:06. > :21:11.are saying... Tony Blair wanted to join the euro.
:21:11. > :21:14.You have noticed, the only test you have is what can we say to try and
:21:14. > :21:20.persuade people that actually everything will be fine. There
:21:20. > :21:26.seems to be wufpb rule for Labour and another for everybody else here.
:21:26. > :21:30.The important point about the euro is - look I will not make a point
:21:30. > :21:34.about Greece and Ireland. You cannot have a monetary union
:21:34. > :21:39.without a fiscal and political union. You can't.
:21:39. > :21:44.And what the SNP are trying to say is we can stay part of sterling,
:21:44. > :21:49.let England set our interest rates. Probably a Tory Government to set
:21:49. > :21:53.our spending and borrowing limits. It is not a credible policy. The
:21:53. > :21:58.reason they no longer want to join the euro is because they have
:21:58. > :22:02.realised it is immensely unpopular and they realise people will run
:22:02. > :22:07.one million miles away from it. Answer that about what controls you
:22:07. > :22:16.can have. In terms of going into the euro, how long can you wait to
:22:16. > :22:21.go into the euro if you stay within the EU? We said clearly for the
:22:21. > :22:25.foreseeable future we would not advocate entry to the euro. I think
:22:25. > :22:30.Anas is wrong. The key lesson is you cannot have a successful
:22:30. > :22:34.monetary union when you have wildly di ger vapbt economies like the
:22:34. > :22:37.richest parts of Germany and the poorest piece of Greece. That is
:22:37. > :22:44.not true across the UK, where productivity levels are very
:22:44. > :22:48.similar. I think it has been described as... You can have a
:22:48. > :22:52.successful monetary union, it is called the United Kingdom.
:22:52. > :22:58.There would be a... Should we take it for granted that the Bank of
:22:58. > :23:02.England will be the lender for us for last resort? We shouldn't. As
:23:03. > :23:06.somebody who has never changed their mind on the euro, we need to
:23:06. > :23:11.go back to the fundamental question... Is that a good thing,
:23:11. > :23:15.if circumstances change? Let's look at the circumstances right now. The
:23:15. > :23:20.fundamental question the SNP have not answered when it comes to
:23:20. > :23:24.Europe is they do not accept or admit that a separate Scottish
:23:24. > :23:28.state would have to apply to join the EU. One of the rules is you
:23:28. > :23:33.have to adopt the euro. That is the law. So, it may not be within the
:23:33. > :23:37.choice of an independent Scotland. Now, so sure is Nicola of her
:23:37. > :23:41.position and we checked on this, that she has never even checked
:23:41. > :23:45.with Europe what the law would be. We wrote to the President of the
:23:45. > :23:49.European Commission to ask if the SNP had ever checked what the
:23:49. > :23:54.status of an independent Scotland would be. I have the letter which I
:23:54. > :24:00.got back from his office here, which I will be happy to let Nicola
:24:00. > :24:09.see, which states that not only has the President been asked by the SNP
:24:09. > :24:14.in Government or opposition, but no other commissioner has either. The
:24:14. > :24:18.assertions are based on nothing more than wishful thinking. That is
:24:18. > :24:23.not enough to make a decision that is irreversible.
:24:23. > :24:29.APPLAUSE I should say that should have been
:24:29. > :24:37.submitted in evidence before happened, so we can check. This is
:24:37. > :24:41.from the President of the commission.
:24:42. > :24:44.Former judges, firstly about the fact that an independent Scotland
:24:45. > :24:50.would automatically be in the European Union and we would not be
:24:50. > :24:56.compelled to be in the Europe. SPEAK AT ONCE
:24:56. > :25:00.Thank you, thank you. We go to the audience. I just find
:25:00. > :25:04.that I really enjoy the news and I read an awful lot of news and
:25:04. > :25:09.current affairs and follow the SNP and followed all the parties in
:25:09. > :25:14.front of me. If there was an obvious financial advantage of
:25:14. > :25:18.being independent, I would know that. I would know that now. I'm...
:25:18. > :25:21.I can't see it. Nobody's going to put money on a horse that they
:25:22. > :25:26.don't think will win. Nobody will buy a lottery ticket if they don't
:25:26. > :25:32.think they will win. Yes, the money can fund the system. Can somebody
:25:32. > :25:37.in the SNP tell me what the financial advantage is to the
:25:37. > :25:42.country of independence? OK, this gentleman here in the blue shirt.
:25:42. > :25:50.am fed up with the money argument. There is an obsession with money.
:25:50. > :25:57.APPLAUSE There's no link between money and
:25:57. > :26:03.happiness, whether we would be �200 better off. I would like to see a
:26:03. > :26:06.happier and more... No, no, that would not make an initial impact.
:26:06. > :26:13.When you look at what is happening, it is not just about material
:26:13. > :26:18.comfort, it is about whether people can make decisions. Scottish brand
:26:18. > :26:23.is one of the strongest in the world. I love being Scottish.
:26:23. > :26:28.great you are interacting. The gentleman behind you here.
:26:28. > :26:32.Sorry, we keep missing you. The gentleman with the beard. I am
:26:32. > :26:36.horrified to see that nobody on the panel was going to say that over
:26:36. > :26:40.ten years they expected Scotland to become better off. Now Patrick
:26:40. > :26:45.Harvie thinks it is likely we'll be poorer. Now the world economy,
:26:45. > :26:50.outside the EU at least, is growing at 6% every year. That means that
:26:50. > :26:56.10%, that is over ten years. We would have doubled the size of the
:26:56. > :27:01.world economy. Yet none of these people would expect Scotland, an
:27:01. > :27:06.independent Scotland would be in any way better off. I don't agree
:27:06. > :27:10.with the gentleman in the front that it is financial... I do want
:27:10. > :27:16.to live in a better off world. the back here. In the middle at the
:27:16. > :27:23.back. Yes, thank you. For the Europe and the euro issue,
:27:23. > :27:28.shouldn't we get clear-cut answers. Will we be in the euro if we are
:27:28. > :27:32.independent or not? Why hasn't anyone asked for a real yes or no
:27:32. > :27:37.answer? Nicola Sturgeon, would an independent Scotland be in Europe
:27:37. > :27:41.and use the euro in the foreseeable future? We would be in Europe, yes.
:27:41. > :27:46.For the foreseeable future we would not use the euro.
:27:46. > :27:50.We don't know the answer to that question. The legal advise has not
:27:50. > :27:57.been sought by the Scottish Government.
:27:57. > :28:01.This is the most important point, the legal opinion is legal opinion
:28:02. > :28:11.pre-the Lisbon Treaty. We are not in the European exchange rate
:28:12. > :28:21.
:28:21. > :28:24.mechanism. I am finding this part of the
:28:24. > :28:27.debate frustrating, not just because I can barely hear when
:28:28. > :28:31.people are talking over each other, but also because we are talking
:28:31. > :28:36.about whether we would join the euro, and it has never been my
:28:36. > :28:41.party policy, whether we would have to, whether we would be in the EU.
:28:41. > :28:46.We do not even know what is going to the future of the European Union.
:28:46. > :28:53.We do not know where the EU or euro will be by 2014, never mind 2016
:28:53. > :28:59.when a free vote yes, Scotland would be independent. -- if we vote
:28:59. > :29:03.yes. We need realism about the uncertainties. I agree with Anas
:29:03. > :29:08.Sarwar that there are problems with the idea of that currency union
:29:08. > :29:11.without a political union. Even though Scotland and the rest of the
:29:11. > :29:17.UK are closer together in terms of their economy at the moment, in
:29:17. > :29:21.reality, they would diverge if we were independent. If the SNP want
:29:21. > :29:27.to make a case that you should stay in Stirling and that Stirling
:29:27. > :29:33.should be a multi- state currency zone, we need to attach a timescale
:29:33. > :29:37.that would move us away from that. We should be willing to talk about
:29:37. > :29:44.whether Scotland, as an independent country, can have an independent
:29:44. > :29:51.currency as well. Are we confident that Scotland actually could stay
:29:51. > :29:55.in Stirling? What is in it for Westminster and the rest of the UK?
:29:55. > :30:05.That would be a question for the UK Government and it would require the
:30:05. > :30:06.
:30:06. > :30:10.UK Government to consent, I accept that. Scotland's oil and gas
:30:10. > :30:16.exports create half of the UK's balance of deficit. No government
:30:16. > :30:24.in its right mind would turn as a way. There are advantages for the
:30:24. > :30:28.rest of the UK. How is it credible to have a foreign country sector
:30:28. > :30:33.interest rates? How it is that independence? The interest rates
:30:33. > :30:37.are set by the Bank of England. There is no Scottish representation
:30:37. > :30:42.on the Monetary Policy Committee, which would change if Scotland was
:30:42. > :30:48.independent and we would get the fiscal levers that we so badly need.
:30:48. > :30:54.The policy of the Bank of England is set by the Treasury. If Anas
:30:54. > :31:00.Sarwar thinks... There is no point in all of us talking over each
:31:00. > :31:06.other all of the time. I appreciate by you feel strongly but just to
:31:06. > :31:10.clarify, Anas Sarwar, that is a point that you're leverage is your
:31:10. > :31:20.balance of payments and who would turn down in a Stirling's own the
:31:20. > :31:20.
:31:20. > :31:27.oil revenues and the with the Revenue's? -- Stirling's own.
:31:27. > :31:32.of our business is with England. If we become a separate country, baby,
:31:32. > :31:42.our biggest business competitor and they are setting our interest rates
:31:42. > :31:47.and borrowing limits. We are part of the UK, it would be a foreign
:31:47. > :31:55.country setting the interest rates if we were not. None of the panel
:31:55. > :31:59.can decide if we going to Europe or not. With regards to the Stirling,
:32:00. > :32:05.it is more important to look at the relationship we would have with the
:32:05. > :32:14.UK if we abandon them and look at that and the effect it would have
:32:14. > :32:19.on our financial situation. Thank you. I want to go back to the
:32:19. > :32:26.earlier. Mac about looking after the poorest in society. -- the
:32:26. > :32:31.earlier point. Currently, people with disabilities are losing their
:32:31. > :32:35.benefits, there are communities around Scotland that have had
:32:35. > :32:45.massive social problems for decades, how is the UK looking after its
:32:45. > :32:48.
:32:48. > :32:54.poorest? At the back? You are on national television and you are
:32:54. > :32:58.lying. The Bank of England, under the Bank of England Act 1998, no
:32:58. > :33:02.political party has representation on the council and you are saying
:33:02. > :33:09.that Scotland would have a representative on the Monetary
:33:09. > :33:13.Policy Committee. At best, there is conflicting opinion about the EU
:33:13. > :33:20.and whether Scotland would be in or are out of it. You are saying 100%
:33:20. > :33:25.Scotland would be in it. That is not the case. It is a disgrace.
:33:25. > :33:28.Just to be accurate about this, I did not suggest party political
:33:28. > :33:34.representation in the Monetary Policy Committee. The Chancellor of
:33:34. > :33:42.the Exchequer appoints four members to the committee. I am suggesting a
:33:42. > :33:52.Scottish finance secretary could represent us. -- could appoint
:33:52. > :33:54.
:33:54. > :33:59.someone to represent us. Can I ask Nick Allott a question. If you as a
:33:59. > :34:05.nationalist have launched your campaign, why would you want to
:34:05. > :34:09.leave I'd union whose long-term tendency is to devolve and localise
:34:09. > :34:19.power in Scotland to join one which wants to centralise power in the
:34:19. > :34:22.
:34:22. > :34:29.European Union, why would you want that as a nationalist? I am not a
:34:29. > :34:33.central list. On the assumption that we would have to join the euro
:34:33. > :34:40.to join the EU, does that change your stance? It is not the chance.
:34:40. > :34:45.-- my case. You obviously have not done your homework to find out that
:34:45. > :34:51.in order to be in the euro, you have to be in the European
:34:51. > :35:01.exchange-rate mechanism for two years. The legal opinion on this is
:35:01. > :35:01.
:35:01. > :35:06.absolutely clear. No it is not. think we have established that
:35:06. > :35:13.there is conflicting legal opinion on Mace and conflicting opinions.
:35:13. > :35:18.Yes? I think it is easy for pro independence people to say, what
:35:18. > :35:23.have the British government done to help inequality? Glasgow and
:35:23. > :35:27.Scotland has a massive problem with inequality. How are we going to
:35:27. > :35:32.have more social justice? How would you get to the root causes?
:35:32. > :35:36.Successive governments have failed to do this. Just because we are
:35:36. > :35:41.independent, what makes you think we are going to come up with a
:35:41. > :35:46.massive solution? We are hearing just the Yes side throwing facts at
:35:46. > :35:51.us, saying it will be better. We need actual hard facts and hard
:35:51. > :35:56.points. They are just building on the austere situation of the UK at
:35:56. > :36:03.the moment, playing on the back of that. We want to hear opera Det --
:36:03. > :36:10.projections and what is going to happen to us in the future. A quick
:36:10. > :36:20.mention, if you would like to find out more on these and other issues,
:36:20. > :36:24.
:36:24. > :36:29.visit our section on the BBC News website. The next question please.
:36:29. > :36:35.How would any future Scottish Government replace defence jobs
:36:35. > :36:39.which will be lost after independence? I am not looking to
:36:39. > :36:44.spread of the UK so I am not going to be able to answer that. I do not
:36:44. > :36:49.know how we could possibly replace those jobs. The MoD has 18,000
:36:49. > :36:54.uniform and nonuniform personnel across Scotland across 30 local
:36:54. > :37:00.authorities. Thousands of people are involved in local defence
:37:00. > :37:07.contraction. We have already heard about getting rid of submarines at
:37:07. > :37:13.Faslane. Frankly, I am proud of our armed forces and they do tremendous
:37:13. > :37:17.work because they are integrated across the UK. The defence plans
:37:17. > :37:24.that were outlined by the SNP in January were risible because they
:37:24. > :37:28.did not take into account that there would not be anything like a
:37:29. > :37:33.logistics Corps, an officer training school, engineering input,
:37:33. > :37:36.an RAF Regiment, a Royal Naval Reserve, they would not have any
:37:36. > :37:40.special forces. They need to go back to the drawing board and come
:37:40. > :37:44.back if they are serious about the first rule of government,
:37:44. > :37:48.protecting the nation that user, they have to come back with
:37:48. > :37:56.something which is a credible plan for defence of an independent
:37:56. > :38:00.Scotland. What Rhys Davies and forgets to tell you is that
:38:00. > :38:05.Scotland has been shedding defence jobs for the last few years under
:38:05. > :38:15.both the previous government and his conservative government. 10,000
:38:15. > :38:15.
:38:15. > :38:18.defence jobs, air bases cut, and we contribute more to UK defence than
:38:18. > :38:23.is spent in Scotland. We would inherit the defence footprint that
:38:23. > :38:27.was in Scotland at the time of independence and ensure that we had
:38:27. > :38:34.defence forces to protect Scotland's interests. If you look
:38:34. > :38:38.at countries like Norway, Scotland is going to have one Airbase,
:38:38. > :38:41.Norway has seven. Anybody that says that Scotland cannot support the
:38:41. > :38:46.kind of defence forces that we need is not looking at similar countries
:38:46. > :38:49.elsewhere in Europe. One thing we would not have, and I make no bones
:38:49. > :38:57.about it, we would not have weapons of mass destruction on the River
:38:57. > :39:02.Clyde because we do not need them. When would they go, Nicola
:39:02. > :39:05.Sturgeon? That would be a matter for negotiation in the independence
:39:05. > :39:09.of negotiations. We would want to see Trident leaving the River Clyde
:39:09. > :39:13.as soon as possible. It is a weapons system that we cannot
:39:13. > :39:23.afford and do not need. I do not think the majority of people want
:39:23. > :39:27.to see them remain any longer than they have to. Gentleman to be left?
:39:27. > :39:37.Have you had a word with BAE Systems? Are you guaranteeing that
:39:37. > :39:40.
:39:40. > :39:46.they will continue to build English -- the English may be? The MoD have
:39:46. > :39:50.given a contract in Korea. We had some of the best shipyard workers
:39:50. > :40:00.in the world and I used to represent the Govan shipyard, and
:40:00. > :40:07.
:40:07. > :40:10.they could compete across the world. Just when you recall, you are
:40:10. > :40:18.treated to say that if we did not have the aircraft carrier contract
:40:18. > :40:21.from the MoD it would mean the end of shipbuilding in Scotland. The UK
:40:21. > :40:27.only commissions warships from UK companies. If we are no longer part
:40:27. > :40:31.of the United Kingdom, why would it commission them? The reason there
:40:31. > :40:40.was a vessel in Korea is because there was no UK contract and it was
:40:40. > :40:43.not a warship. The other important point about Trident... Are you
:40:43. > :40:50.suggesting that if Scotland will not compete successfully under
:40:50. > :40:56.independence? One thing that demonstrates the positive skills of
:40:56. > :41:04.the UK is the shipbuilding industry, particularly in Scotland. The UK
:41:04. > :41:08.has never commissioned a warship quite wither the UK. Nicholas said
:41:08. > :41:18.herself on Twitter that the obliteration of the shipbuilding
:41:18. > :41:19.
:41:19. > :41:24.industry in Scotland, and the other. That is important, I do not want to
:41:24. > :41:27.get the nuclear weapons just out of the Clyde, just move it down the
:41:27. > :41:36.motorway, we want to obliterate nuclear weapons not just from
:41:36. > :41:41.Scotland but from right across this UK -- the UK and around the world.
:41:41. > :41:46.You have a specific question about nuclear? On the subject of Trident,
:41:46. > :41:50.when the day comes, or if the day comes when Scotland is independent,
:41:50. > :41:59.who picks up the tab for the removal of these weapons from
:41:59. > :42:02.Scottish Water as? Nicola Sturgeon? I think Scotland is -- has more
:42:03. > :42:05.than shed the burden of Trident and I think people in Scotland want to
:42:05. > :42:10.see the day when we no longer have tried nuclear missiles on the River
:42:10. > :42:20.Clyde. The only way to ensure that happens is to vote Yes in the
:42:20. > :42:20.
:42:20. > :42:24.independence referendum. Just to clarify that point Mike -- that
:42:25. > :42:30.point, actually you will get an independent Scotland, and what
:42:30. > :42:36.happens thereafter will be that you get a green majority government?
:42:36. > :42:41.You may get eight Labour a majority government. To say vote Yes to get
:42:41. > :42:45.rid of Trident may not actually be the case. People then have the
:42:45. > :42:52.right to vote for parties to form a government to get rid of Trident.
:42:52. > :42:57.We do not have that option without independence. We have demonstrated
:42:57. > :43:01.that the people of Scotland are opposed to Trident. There is very
:43:01. > :43:04.little chance that you will have a pro Trident government. We have got
:43:04. > :43:11.the opportunity to go further and have a constitutional prohibition
:43:11. > :43:14.on weapons of mass destruction. We would be the central -- second
:43:14. > :43:20.country in the world to have a constitutional bar on the use of
:43:20. > :43:25.weapons of mass destruction. We could go further. Be Green Party to
:43:26. > :43:30.not just want to reproduce a small section of the UK defence
:43:30. > :43:34.infrastructure policy or overseas use of it in Scotland. I don't want
:43:34. > :43:38.weapons of mass destruction, not just because they are wrong, but
:43:38. > :43:44.because they are necessary. I don't want the same possession on
:43:44. > :43:47.aircraft carriers that Nicola had, because those machines are Sibly
:43:47. > :43:52.about the aggressive projection of power around the world. I would
:43:52. > :43:56.like to redefine what security and defence mean in the 21st century.
:43:56. > :43:59.The threats to human well-being in the 21st century are not about
:43:59. > :44:05.Borders, especially not the border of Scotland with England, it is
:44:05. > :44:10.about poverty, water, energy, climate change, these are the real
:44:10. > :44:13.threats to human well-being and security in the 21st century and
:44:13. > :44:22.they will need a fundamentally different set of defensive answers
:44:23. > :44:28.rather than just reproducing UK One thing which has served Scotland
:44:28. > :44:31.and the UK well through the years, through defence, has been standing
:44:31. > :44:39.shoulder-to-shoulder with our allies and being part of NATO has
:44:39. > :44:46.been, NATO is the strongest defence alliance around the world. There
:44:46. > :44:51.are stand alongside allys in Iraq. Come along. We had no choose.
:44:51. > :44:55.Having been to Kosovo and seen some of the work our troops did there,
:44:55. > :44:59.preventing ethnic cleansing, I am proud of the work NATO did.
:44:59. > :45:05.Frankly I am proud of what we did in the Balkans right on our toor
:45:05. > :45:09.step. I would like to ask Nicola, has the SNP decided its position on
:45:09. > :45:14.NATO? We don't know. The current policy is we would not be in NATO.
:45:14. > :45:23.We would be in parter inship for peace. Like we den, not in NATO,
:45:23. > :45:33.but in partnership for peace. -- Sweden. Not in NATO, but in
:45:33. > :45:38.partnership for peace. We don't know what the security
:45:38. > :45:42.review will do to Armed Forces in Scotland. We will debate it when we
:45:42. > :45:47.get the information of the cuts your Government is making.
:45:47. > :45:52.It's not going to work if you start interviewing each other off camera
:45:52. > :45:58.there. Can someone tell me, who is
:45:58. > :46:03.Scotland going to nuke with this weapon?
:46:03. > :46:07.The gentleman here. The fact is it was said many years ago now you
:46:07. > :46:11.cannot uninvent nuclear weapons. The reality is if we take a moral
:46:11. > :46:19.stance that we're not going to have them, we have to hope that some of
:46:19. > :46:26.the luen tick, extremist people around will play -- lunatic,
:46:26. > :46:33.extremists will not play around. We need to be adequately defended.
:46:33. > :46:41.gentleman in the red shirt. I am a member of the SNP, as Nicola knows.
:46:41. > :46:45.I am pro NATO, and the American submarine fleet remains at fas lain.
:46:45. > :46:50.The SNP needs the debate and we need to move towards being in NATO.
:46:50. > :46:55.That is the shield of western defence. We really need to be in it.
:46:55. > :46:59.The lady here in the green top. Yes, this one. Thank you. I would like
:46:59. > :47:02.to ask Mr Sarwar. He said he himself would like to obliterate
:47:02. > :47:08.nuclear weapons, not just from Scotland but from England as well.
:47:08. > :47:12.It is my understanding that is another personal view, but because
:47:12. > :47:16.it is not the view of the Labour Party across the UK, the Scottish
:47:16. > :47:20.Labour Party are unable to take forward their views. That shows you
:47:20. > :47:23.are not able to as a Scottish party to put forward what you consider to
:47:23. > :47:31.be the programme for this country that you want because you are
:47:31. > :47:36.obstructed by the UK. It's not true. The last Labour
:47:36. > :47:42.Government was the most active in terms of nuclear disarmament. In
:47:42. > :47:49.terms of reducing the number of war heads. As long as we feel good
:47:49. > :47:53.about ourselves, let's move them a couple of hundred miles down the M4
:47:53. > :47:55.and everything will be fine. Those who don't believe in weapons of
:47:56. > :48:00.mass destruction want them away from not just Scotland, but the
:48:00. > :48:04.rest of the UK and the rest of the world too. I don't think the SNP's
:48:04. > :48:08.position is credible at all. would like to see nuclear weapons
:48:08. > :48:13.removed from the world completely. I would like to see the UK
:48:13. > :48:17.Government not just supporting the current Trident system, but
:48:17. > :48:19.planning to replace the Trident missile system. So long as we have
:48:19. > :48:24.a Government which supports Trident it is reasonable for people in
:48:24. > :48:29.Scotland to say we don't want it in the River Clyde, we don't want it
:48:29. > :48:34.in Scotland. Can you pick up on the point about the fact we need a
:48:34. > :48:40.nuclear deterrent for our own security? I don't believe in
:48:40. > :48:46.nuclear deterrents. Whom does it deter? And from what? The response
:48:46. > :48:52.to Anas and the gentleman at the back of the room, this is a debate
:48:52. > :49:00.about unilateral disarmament, verses multi-lateral disarmament. I
:49:00. > :49:05.understand high some people have moved from that unilateralist to a
:49:05. > :49:09.multi-lateralist position. What the UK Government is doing is
:49:09. > :49:13.unilateral rearmament, the decision to replace with a new weapons of
:49:13. > :49:16.mass destruction. If we in Scotland, whether through voting yes or
:49:16. > :49:21.through political pressure and I think it can be done by voting yes
:49:22. > :49:26.to independence, to say this cannot exist in Scottish waters, we will
:49:26. > :49:30.help tip the balance within the UK defence argument. There are many
:49:30. > :49:34.who don't think this is a legitimate and a sensible and
:49:34. > :49:39.rational use of money. Many would say this should not be pursued,
:49:39. > :49:44.even at UK level. We can help to tip the balance. There are precious
:49:44. > :49:48.other places it could be moved to in England or in Wales. If Scotland
:49:48. > :49:52.said no and got rid of Trident from Scottish waters, we would help to
:49:52. > :50:00.tip the balance in the UK and they would not end up replacing them. It
:50:00. > :50:04.would be a profoundly positive step forward. So many of the arguments
:50:04. > :50:10.we have heard tonight just scream to me that we should be voting for
:50:10. > :50:15.independence because whether we're going to be in sterling or a member
:50:15. > :50:20.of the EU, or retain the monarchy or get rid of nuclear weapons. All
:50:20. > :50:27.these decisions can be made by us as a sovereign, independent nation.
:50:27. > :50:32.APPLAUSE But only once we're independent. We
:50:32. > :50:39.seem to be getting away from the discussion tonight. Many of these
:50:39. > :50:43.debates and arguments are surely going to be held at the first
:50:43. > :50:47.Scottish elections after independence, when if the Labour
:50:47. > :50:49.Party want to retain Trident, let them put it in their manifesto for
:50:49. > :50:54.an independent Scotland and see what the people of Scotland say.
:50:54. > :51:00.Thank you for that. Thank you all. Thanks for that. Now, let's go on
:51:00. > :51:06.to our next question, please. It's from Sandra Webster. Sandra?
:51:06. > :51:12.Scotland be independent if the monarchy is retained?
:51:12. > :51:15.Patrick? Well, yes. I think there are other countries which share the
:51:15. > :51:21.British monarchy, which I couldn't say are not independent because of
:51:21. > :51:25.that. I don't think that we should retain the hereditary principal in
:51:25. > :51:30.a modern country. I think that is a point of principal. I would be fair
:51:30. > :51:35.more comfortable if we had an elected head of state rather than
:51:36. > :51:39.retaining the monarchy. There's a debate that's due next week in the
:51:39. > :51:44.Scottish Parliament about the jubilee. We're all expected to go
:51:44. > :51:49.along and say nice things and clap and all agree that isn't the
:51:49. > :51:55.monarchy wonderful. I, in my own life, I don't know anyone who takes
:51:55. > :51:58.it seriously. There's a latent republicanism that doesn't call
:51:58. > :52:04.itself republicanism, maybe thinks the monarchy is a wee bit silly and
:52:04. > :52:08.we could do better. We should be willing to have that debate. It
:52:08. > :52:12.seems bizarre to debate creating a new independent country without
:52:12. > :52:18.having a broad, open debate about how to choose the head of state. I
:52:18. > :52:21.hope we have that. It is an issue the SNP will have to come to when
:52:21. > :52:25.they publish their White Paper. I think there'll have to be space
:52:25. > :52:30.about a debate about how you achieve a written constitution. How
:52:30. > :52:33.do you have a process, in Scotland, that draws together public views
:52:34. > :52:37.and creates a written constitution we can adopt democratically. It may
:52:37. > :52:47.be that most people would want to keep the monarchy, I would vote
:52:47. > :52:53.against that. We need to at least have the debate. APPLAUSE
:52:53. > :52:59.We may share the same city, but we have vastly different social
:52:59. > :53:04.circles. I am sure you do! Actually, I mean I look at the
:53:04. > :53:09.service that the queen has given down the last few decades. I am
:53:09. > :53:15.proud she's been my head of state. I think she's done a remarkable job.
:53:15. > :53:20.I think when you look at some of the political leaders, a want to be
:53:20. > :53:27.President Blair or President Salmond, I like the idea you have a
:53:27. > :53:29.non-political head that functions in that civic space in the UK.
:53:29. > :53:34.direction answer of course you can be independent with the queen as
:53:34. > :53:39.head of state. There are countries in that position. The union of the
:53:39. > :53:44.Crown predates the date of the political union between the UK and
:53:44. > :53:49.Scotland. I support retaining the queen as head of state, because in
:53:49. > :53:51.many ways it symbolises the strong social union that would continue to
:53:51. > :53:55.exist, notwithstanding Scotland winning political and economic
:53:55. > :53:59.independence. I think that is a good thing. Sandra, in asking the
:53:59. > :54:04.question, what do you think is the answer? I am a feminist republican.
:54:04. > :54:12.I believe the people of Scotland should decide who they have as head
:54:12. > :54:17.of state. I believe a monarchy is invalidated and the people should
:54:17. > :54:22.decide. Anas Sarwar? I support the monarchy. The number of U-turns
:54:22. > :54:28.we'll have leading up to that referendum in 2014 if we ever have
:54:28. > :54:33.it and the SNP show the bottle and call it. We can keep the pound, the
:54:33. > :54:39.monarchy, all the lovely things you like about the UK. See the things -
:54:39. > :54:42.- to say the bad things will change, that is not credible. The SNP need
:54:42. > :54:50.to tell us what independence means. It goes back to social justice.
:54:50. > :54:57.That is the real agenda. My priority is to make Mr Cameron
:54:57. > :55:02.the next unemployment statistic. We want a kind of Scotland where we
:55:02. > :55:08.have a more prosperous country. It is credible to say one of the first
:55:08. > :55:12.policies we'll have so to reduce corporation tax for the biggest
:55:12. > :55:17.businesses and hammer public services across the country. That
:55:17. > :55:22.is a failed... Do you support the monarchy? I would support the
:55:22. > :55:30.principal of monarchy. In an independent Scotland? I wonder
:55:30. > :55:33.which will come between now and 2014. This gentleman here. I was
:55:33. > :55:38.born and raised in a country where you elect the head of state. I can
:55:38. > :55:42.tell you I don't want to go down this road here. I really don't.
:55:43. > :55:47.Possible the German model. I cannot see the American or the South
:55:47. > :55:51.American model or the model in a lot of countries where there's a
:55:51. > :55:55.competitive party election for head of state, with the waste and the
:55:55. > :56:01.money that is involved - I just don't want it here.
:56:01. > :56:11.This gentleman here? We have Elizabeth the second. I am ex-army,
:56:11. > :56:12.
:56:12. > :56:22.so God bless her. We have Elizabeth II. Charles wants to be George VII.
:56:22. > :56:30.When we become independent, not if, if we don't want Charles VII. I opt
:56:30. > :56:35.we go for princess Ann. Now the last question, from Francesca Pieri.
:56:35. > :56:40.Who would you like to see representing Scotland at the
:56:40. > :56:46.Eurovision Song Contest? It gets tougher as we go along. Can I jump
:56:46. > :56:54.in. I don't know if anyone remembers a TV programme called the
:56:54. > :56:58.High Life. There was a great song called Pif-Paf-Pof. That was a
:56:58. > :57:04.generous entry to Eurovision. It was only fiction, but it is only a
:57:04. > :57:10.hair away from fact. I am tempted to go to say Sweden's success shows
:57:10. > :57:16.what a small independent country can achieve. I think, I am not sure
:57:16. > :57:26.they would agree, but I think it would be great to see the
:57:26. > :57:30.Proclaimers give Jedward a run for their money.
:57:30. > :57:36.As someone proud to be Scottish but proud to be part of the United
:57:36. > :57:41.Kingdom, one of the pluses, and maybe one of the only is we have
:57:41. > :57:47.the Hump representing us. I think the Proclaimers are a good
:57:47. > :57:52.shout. There are lots of artists we could promote. I think we will be
:57:52. > :57:55.proud to be part of the UK come the referendum. I could not bring
:57:55. > :58:01.myself to vote this year either. This year?
:58:01. > :58:06.LAUGHTER I think, you know, one maybe half
:58:06. > :58:12.serious point is about the way the political voting happens in
:58:12. > :58:18.Eurovision. Countries vote for each other year after year. If we vote
:58:18. > :58:26."yes" and establish a new friendly, respectful, respectful relationship
:58:26. > :58:30.with our friends down south, you could see England and Scotland
:58:30. > :58:34.giving 12 points to each other and we'll all be happy! On that note
:58:34. > :58:38.we'll have to leave it. We're out of time. Thanks to everybody here
:58:38. > :58:42.in the studio for taking part and of course thanks to you very much