:00:07. > :00:17.Independence or the union? Both campaigns are now actively under
:00:17. > :00:41.
:00:41. > :00:45.way. Don't forget, it's your choice APPLAUSE
:00:45. > :00:48.Hello. Good evening. A very warm welcome from me Brian Taylor to all
:00:48. > :00:53.of you watching at home. And a special welcome to the studio
:00:53. > :00:58.audience who've come here to join us in Glasgow. This is the third
:00:58. > :01:02.debate in a series of discussions we'll be holding in a run up to the
:01:02. > :01:06.vote on independence expected in 2014. Big developments this week,
:01:06. > :01:09.we've had the launch of the better together campaign from those
:01:09. > :01:13.supporting the union side last month, the yes Scotland campaign
:01:13. > :01:16.for independence got under way. Both have the propositions
:01:16. > :01:20.proposals to put to the people and the people have gathered here from
:01:20. > :01:26.all around Scotland, representing a cross-section of opinion with
:01:26. > :01:31.questions they want to put to our panel. That panel is the Scottish
:01:31. > :01:39.Conservative's former leading Annabel Goldie. She kind of stole
:01:39. > :01:49.the show as a chat show host, the OprahWinfrey. We're delighted to be
:01:49. > :01:49.
:01:49. > :01:54.joined by Joanne Curren. We have Fiona Hislop in the Scottish
:01:54. > :01:58.Government. And last, but absolutely never least, Margot
:01:58. > :02:00.McDonald, the independent MSP for the Lothains, a doubty campaign for
:02:00. > :02:07.independence throughout all of her political life. Join me in
:02:07. > :02:14.welcoming the panel. APPLAUSE
:02:14. > :02:19.Let's go straight into the debate, straight to our first question.
:02:19. > :02:23.It's from Colin Moore. Good evening panel, we have record unemployment,
:02:23. > :02:27.record food and fuel prices and people are scared for their jobs.
:02:27. > :02:32.Would the panel tell me the advantages of being in the United
:02:32. > :02:38.Kingdom. Generally its epdz that faces the challenge. We have the
:02:39. > :02:47.launch of Better Together saying the union is a great idea. Margaret
:02:47. > :02:54.Curren treat this like the panel game Just AMinute, no deviation, or
:02:54. > :02:58.hesitation. I'd be tempted to bash the Tories if we're dealing with
:02:58. > :03:02.economic problems that Britain is facing. I think the best answer to
:03:02. > :03:08.those challenges that Colin has high liteed as a Labour Government
:03:08. > :03:12.that gives us different economic policy and gets growth back. You're
:03:12. > :03:16.bashing the Tories. You're sitting next to Annabel Goldie who is your
:03:16. > :03:19.partner in the campaign. That's the best way to get prosperity and
:03:19. > :03:23.share that across the United Kingdom. I think it would be a huge
:03:23. > :03:27.mistake for Scotland to break off from our biggest market. We need
:03:27. > :03:29.that union to work better. To go down a different path would be a
:03:29. > :03:34.huge mistake. Let's get markets working together across Europe,
:03:34. > :03:41.across the world. There's growing interdependence. We need to work
:03:41. > :03:45.together and share resources. you're talking about breaking up a
:03:45. > :03:49.wee mistake, that's a negative point. Colin wants to hear positive
:03:49. > :03:53.defence of the union. I think that is a positive defence. Where you
:03:53. > :03:55.say the partnership works together. It's about making sure we get
:03:55. > :03:59.growth into the economy. It's about recognising the skills of our
:03:59. > :04:03.people. When I look at the challenges that I want to solve?
:04:03. > :04:07.Scotland, be it tackling poverty or the lack of skills we've got, I
:04:07. > :04:10.think we need to pool our resources across the United Kingdom, use the
:04:10. > :04:16.institution that's is Britain, use our influence in Europe and the
:04:16. > :04:23.world that we get part of that partnership. I was going to come to
:04:23. > :04:28.Fiona Hislop but Margot's face win it's by a mile there Correct me if
:04:28. > :04:34.I'm wrong, we'll not fall out over this, but don't you represent the
:04:34. > :04:41.constituent in the UK that has the worst health records in the UK.
:04:41. > :04:45.APPLAUSE I'm sorry, Brian, but that is the
:04:45. > :04:51.record of the union. That has to go to be defended and explained.
:04:51. > :04:57.not, no. If you can't, off with the union. I think that's a false
:04:57. > :05:01.premise. It's fundamentally wrong. You think by separating us, there
:05:01. > :05:06.will solve poverty, that's a fallacy. We need to fight across
:05:06. > :05:12.the union to make sure we can solve poverty. I will come to you in a
:05:12. > :05:16.second. Let's go to the audience. If we stay as a union, how do you
:05:16. > :05:21.propose to make these market chaifrpgdz and bring jobs into the
:05:21. > :05:27.economy? Because it's fair number to say it, but you have to give an
:05:27. > :05:32.answer. And the gentleman here. like to say the benefits of being
:05:32. > :05:37.in the union, 12 billion more invested than we actually produce
:05:37. > :05:41.in Scotland. The GDP is offset by 12 million spending. If you get rid
:05:41. > :05:50.of that, fine, but I'll be moving. Scotland is subsidised by the rest
:05:50. > :05:55.of the UK? Yeah I think so. Back row please. Can I ask the panel, Mr
:05:55. > :05:59.Cameron has promised this 70% of our assets if we all vote no. Why
:05:59. > :06:05.shouldn't we vote yes? And receive 100%?
:06:05. > :06:09.APPLAUSE Several points there, pro-
:06:09. > :06:13.independence, pro-the union. Independence, a Yes vote is the
:06:13. > :06:17.simplest and quickest way to get the levers of power that we need to
:06:17. > :06:23.get the jobs. This is about an opportunity, people deciding
:06:23. > :06:27.themselves where the advantage lies for Scotland,. We're an energy rich
:06:27. > :06:30.country. We shouldn't be having people who can't afford to heat
:06:30. > :06:34.their houses. We should have the opportunities for jobs. That comes
:06:34. > :06:38.through having decision making with the people of Scotland, who can
:06:38. > :06:44.decide things in a way that adapts and meets their needs. What about
:06:44. > :06:48.the point that we ain't got the cash that Scotland is subdiesed bit
:06:48. > :06:52.UK? One of the best things about the debate taking place just now is
:06:52. > :06:58.we have recognition finally, even from people who are arguing no,
:06:58. > :07:01.that if Scotland chos it, we are in a position to do it. We are capable
:07:01. > :07:05.of doing it financially. That's a good platform to engage this debate
:07:05. > :07:08.over the next two years. Finally, whether it's David Cameron or
:07:08. > :07:13.others, there's recognition that Scotland can afford this. The
:07:13. > :07:20.debate becomes of what would you do with those powers? The difference
:07:21. > :07:25.is the people of Scotland decide not the Westminster Government.
:07:25. > :07:30.draw comfort from one thing Fiona has said, she seems to accept the
:07:30. > :07:34.common sense of a simple question. That's helpful to get that
:07:34. > :07:40.challenge out of the road. Going back to the question, I do think we
:07:40. > :07:44.need to lock at some facts here. -- look at facts here. We're not alone
:07:45. > :07:48.in facing difficulties, whether in Fiona's desired independent
:07:48. > :07:51.Scotland or in the current structure, you only have to ask the
:07:51. > :07:58.people of Greece, Portugal and elsewhere, whether they have
:07:58. > :08:02.challenges. Of course they have. It is actually a problem to think
:08:02. > :08:05.constitutional change will fix that. What matters is whether one
:08:05. > :08:07.structure gives us a better chance of getting out of these
:08:07. > :08:12.difficulties. So who's in charge rather than
:08:12. > :08:17.where the power lies? It's partly that. But partly again, to take
:08:18. > :08:21.issue with what Fiona has been saying, Fiona says that even the
:08:22. > :08:24.pro-United Kingdom grouping accepts the argument that an independent
:08:24. > :08:30.Scotland could afford to be an independent Scotland. That's not
:08:30. > :08:34.quite correct phone ya. What -- Fiona. Theoretically Scotland could
:08:34. > :08:41.be independent. That's not the debate. The debate is what
:08:41. > :08:44.arrangement serves us better. Can I give you an example? Yes, briefly.
:08:44. > :08:53.To put this into perspective, because we're in the United Kingdom,
:08:53. > :09:00.we bailed out the Scottish banks. It cost us �470 billion pounds to
:09:01. > :09:03.do that. Do you understand that that actually at the moment
:09:03. > :09:13.represents about 16 Scottish annual budgets. That's the scale of what
:09:13. > :09:18.we're talking about. Margaret Curran. Fiona says that Scotland
:09:18. > :09:23.needs to have hands on its levers to fix the great challenges. I'm
:09:23. > :09:30.confused by what the SNP mean. They say they want the hands on the
:09:30. > :09:35.levers, but then our backs will be looked at by the Bank of England.
:09:35. > :09:40.We are going to split money across the fiscal policy. I understand
:09:40. > :09:47.Margot's point of view. She says complete independence. But that's
:09:47. > :09:50.what the SNP are offering. Margo? To clear up something, the
:09:50. > :09:55.connection between the constitutional question and
:09:55. > :10:01.economic growth. If you look at Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia,
:10:01. > :10:04.they became independent and their economies boomed. People wept there,
:10:04. > :10:12.entrepreneurs went there because it was new and exciting. How about
:10:12. > :10:19.that in Scotland? Gentleman in the front row. If or when the SNP
:10:19. > :10:26.economic miracle fails, who bails us out? The UK? Europe or Sean
:10:26. > :10:32.Connery? The gentleman there. Yes, sir. The panel seem to be saying
:10:32. > :10:36.that within the UK, Scotland's better off. But don't the Benelux
:10:36. > :10:46.countries work well. They're small countries but work within Europe.
:10:46. > :10:47.
:10:47. > :10:53.The young gentleman. I'd like to ask what would be better in the
:10:53. > :10:59.union than an independent Scotland. The gentleman in a beard. Both
:10:59. > :11:09.beards. Currently the United Kingdom national debt is over a
:11:09. > :11:10.
:11:10. > :11:13.trillion pounds... �147 trillion. How are we going to pay that off?
:11:13. > :11:18.The governor of the Bank of England says the recession will last for
:11:18. > :11:24.ten years at least. The UK Government borrowed 20 billion last
:11:24. > :11:29.month alone. I would like to point out to the
:11:29. > :11:34.panel that if we are going to make things better in Scotland in an
:11:34. > :11:42.independent Scotland, we have to have control of taxation. And one
:11:42. > :11:47.of the worst kinds of taxation to my mind is VAT. VAT is imposed by
:11:47. > :11:56.being a member of the European Union and that is a redistributive
:11:56. > :12:03.tax. Thank you. I'd like to take up issue with Annabel about the Royal
:12:03. > :12:11.Bank of Scotland. Last time I checked was 90% was NatWest bank.
:12:11. > :12:16.Those are English banks, English debts as much as Scottish debts.
:12:17. > :12:26.Scots would be responsible for 10%. At the moment we're responsible for
:12:27. > :12:27.
:12:27. > :12:37.a large chunk of an economic problems. Wasn't it them trying to
:12:37. > :12:38.
:12:38. > :12:44.take over ABN AMRO. How can you convince somebody like
:12:44. > :12:50.me that has been dreaming for years for independence and what we're
:12:50. > :12:54.getting is just moving into Europe. We're not going to get independence.
:12:54. > :12:59.I can't vote yes to this because we're not getting independence.
:12:59. > :13:06.regard it as short of independence, is it the European business?
:13:06. > :13:10.don't know if I'm part -- allowed to say it, but I don't want to be
:13:10. > :13:14.part of the United States of Germany. This is to Margaret, you
:13:14. > :13:19.say the solutions to poverty and unemployment is instead of becoming
:13:19. > :13:23.independent to vote for Labour, since 1979, five times the people
:13:23. > :13:27.of Scotland at UK elections voted Labour and what we got was a Tory
:13:27. > :13:37.Government. Isn't it a case of Vote Labour get Tory until we're
:13:37. > :13:38.
:13:38. > :13:42.independent.?. Back row please. Annabel's compare sons with Greece
:13:42. > :13:50.and Portugal are ridiculous. They're not oil rich countries like
:13:50. > :13:57.we are. That's ridiculous. Gosh, loads to talk about.
:13:57. > :14:01.Margaret,... Very quickly. Oh, how I agree with you, Sir. Europe
:14:01. > :14:10.changed the min The Bells O Peover Berlin Wall came down. No-one
:14:10. > :14:15.looked at it -- Europe changed the minute the Berlin Wall came down.
:14:15. > :14:18.We think about the free trade area, because we should be trading with
:14:18. > :14:25.Europe, but we shouldn't be run from Brussels. Clarify something if
:14:25. > :14:28.you would. Are you in the yes Scotland campaign or not? I'm
:14:28. > :14:31.puzzled. Of course, I'm yes for Scotland. But there's a better way
:14:31. > :14:36.to do it. The campaign that was launched by Alex Salmond, the
:14:36. > :14:41.launch held, are you part of that team, are you on that squad?
:14:41. > :14:47.position is... You went against it because of control freakery.
:14:47. > :14:50.don't like that either! Are you in or out? I will vote yes absolutely
:14:50. > :14:53.without equivocation. You're not part of that team? At the moment I
:14:53. > :14:57.want to show there's a room for independence. There's a room for
:14:57. > :15:03.people who think like that gentleman, who realises it doesn't
:15:03. > :15:10.have to be the EU. Independent Scotland can be independent or out
:15:10. > :15:14.of it. There's a lot more choice than offered by the parties.
:15:14. > :15:17.Currently Scotland is in the European Union, will continue to be
:15:17. > :15:22.so. That's what the SNP Government's position is. Also on
:15:22. > :15:25.the general point about the economy. I think the point is was in the
:15:25. > :15:28.'Yes' campaign, there are people who will see and want to see a
:15:28. > :15:32.different future for Scotland. We can only make those decisions once
:15:32. > :15:35.we're independent. In terms of the economy, this is the crux of this.
:15:35. > :15:40.People want to know they're going to be able to have an opportunity
:15:40. > :15:44.to have more jobs here. We've proved it already with the survey
:15:44. > :15:49.on the 19th June, that Scotland is topping the whole of the UK in
:15:49. > :15:52.terms of jobs and investment coming here. How much more can we do, if
:15:52. > :15:56.we've got the opportunities on taxation and the powers to make a
:15:56. > :16:03.difference. Taxation is one of those areas. Benefits and we have
:16:03. > :16:07.to come onto benefits. We will talk about that later. Exactly. Let's
:16:07. > :16:12.leave that for later. I think we need to get into the central matter
:16:12. > :16:15.of the economy and just exactly is being proposed bit SNP. And in
:16:15. > :16:18.reference to this gentleman's question. Actually what's on offer
:16:18. > :16:23.I think gives Scotland less economic power. Firstly, it seems
:16:23. > :16:26.to be that we are willing to be in any union except the one on our
:16:26. > :16:30.doorstep, except with our greatest partner and market. If you look at
:16:30. > :16:33.what the SNP are actually proposing, what they're saying is that the
:16:33. > :16:37.Bank of England will control our currency and that we will have no
:16:37. > :16:47.say over interest rates, over borrowing, which will have...
:16:47. > :16:50.The Bank of England was given independence in 1997 as one of the
:16:50. > :16:55.first decisions by Gordon Brown. In terms of how we run our economy, it
:16:55. > :16:59.is important to recognise we would still operate within that market,
:16:59. > :17:02.trading goods and services. It would make sense to the rest of the
:17:02. > :17:06.UK to benefit from the balance of payments that the Scottish economy
:17:06. > :17:10.would have. We are in a stronger fiscal position currently compared
:17:10. > :17:14.to the rest of the UK because we have strong exports. If you think
:17:14. > :17:21.of opportunities in terms of new industries, we are in a stronger
:17:21. > :17:23.place if we can exploit them. of all, the premise is splitting
:17:24. > :17:28.financial and monetary policy and every country in the world is
:17:28. > :17:32.moving against that. That is a fact, everybody is moving against that.
:17:32. > :17:37.It is causing enormous difficulty when you split fiscal and monetary
:17:37. > :17:39.policy for people. Secondly, although the Bank of England has
:17:39. > :17:47.operational independence there is absolutely no doubt that it is
:17:47. > :17:50.guided by the policy of the UK Treasury. What would happen if the
:17:50. > :17:54.its remaining UK, the English Government, or whatever department
:17:54. > :17:59.was left, they would determine the policy, the general direction of
:17:59. > :18:03.monetary policy in Britain. We would have absolutely... Let me be
:18:03. > :18:06.clear about this. Are you telling me you are happy with a model of
:18:06. > :18:13.independence that says, yes, Scotland can have fiscal powers but
:18:13. > :18:20.we will pass over our monetary policy to a foreign power? Is that
:18:20. > :18:26.your definition of independence., come on. The monetary framework, in
:18:26. > :18:31.terms of the same market, you can use that framework. The issue is
:18:31. > :18:34.about governance. It is quite clear, and we have had experts saying it,
:18:34. > :18:40.including an ex-member of the Monetary Policy Committee, saying
:18:40. > :18:45.that the SNP proposal is perfectly feasible. Are you not in effect
:18:45. > :18:47.saying that Scotland is better governed by the conservative UK
:18:48. > :18:55.Government than governed by independent Scottish government,
:18:55. > :18:59.which might well be Labour? I think that is a false choice. How is it a
:18:59. > :19:05.false choice if it happens to be reality? The Conservatives have
:19:05. > :19:09.given the UK for far longer than Labour in the last 50 years. What
:19:09. > :19:13.we are best to do is to have a UK labour Government. I get the
:19:13. > :19:21.concept, but what is your second preference, your second choice?
:19:21. > :19:26.do not see it in those terms at all. Oh, come on! You prefer a UK Tory
:19:26. > :19:29.government to a Scottish Labour government? Of course not. But I
:19:30. > :19:35.absolutely believe it is in the best interests of the poorest
:19:35. > :19:38.people in Scotland to have a strong and vibrant UK. That is why we have
:19:38. > :19:42.British trade unions and a British welfare-state because of that.
:19:42. > :19:47.if the outcome is that it is governed by the Conservative Party
:19:47. > :19:51.which you have called a right-wing Tory government in a speech in 2009.
:19:51. > :19:55.You said, the Tories abandoned families and offered no support to
:19:55. > :19:59.people in desperate circumstances. You said Margaret Thatcher should
:19:59. > :20:02.apologise to Glasgow for policies that wreaked havoc on our city. She
:20:02. > :20:07.closed the shipyards and steel mills and believed unemployment was
:20:07. > :20:10.a price worth paying. You prefer a UK Conservative government to a
:20:10. > :20:17.Scottish Labour Government? If the problem with a vote for
:20:17. > :20:21.independence is that it is forever. That is a one-way ticket. And there
:20:21. > :20:29.is no guarantee in an independent Scotland you would never get a Tory
:20:29. > :20:36.government ever again. Well, there is a thought to ponder. It could be
:20:36. > :20:43.your comeback! Can I just say, unless I have missed something,
:20:43. > :20:46.Brian, Scotland had a Westminster Labour Government for 15 years. And
:20:46. > :20:49.it currently has a Conservative Government. I do not think that is
:20:49. > :20:53.the issue. This is not about whether you like or dislike Tony
:20:53. > :20:58.Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, George Osborne. This is actually
:20:58. > :21:03.about what is the best partnership arrangement for Scotland.
:21:03. > :21:09.Legitimate the, Margaret -- Fiona and Margot's say independence is
:21:09. > :21:14.the best thing to do. I am uneasy about some of the assertions being
:21:14. > :21:16.made. There may be a legitimate view that in an independent
:21:16. > :21:21.Scotland you would immediately get into a club to all of the oil and
:21:21. > :21:23.gas fields of the North Sea. I can tell you now that the right to that
:21:23. > :21:29.title would be challenged by some of the operators and owners of
:21:29. > :21:34.those fields. You do not think it is Scotland's oil? At the end of
:21:34. > :21:41.the day, what is being advocated as a certainty by Fiona is an
:21:41. > :21:46.exceedingly opaque legal uncertainty. The other thing is, if
:21:46. > :21:50.you look at Jobs, I am looking at things like the fares. The few
:21:50. > :21:57.yards across the River Clyde from here, we have shipbuilding yards,
:21:57. > :22:01.naval defence work on both sides of the river. The thing is, if we had
:22:01. > :22:07.an independent Scotland, we have to bid as a foreign country for royal
:22:07. > :22:14.naval work. Thank you for that. That is got -- not good news.
:22:14. > :22:24.to the audience for his second question which builds of that one.
:22:24. > :22:26.
:22:26. > :22:33.I am looking for Adele Gray, please. DU think somebody can sing for us,
:22:33. > :22:37.and wholeheartedly if they vote No in the referendum? Alistair Darling
:22:37. > :22:42.was stressing that he could be a patriotic Scot and still in favour
:22:42. > :22:46.of the Union. I believe it is sophistry to split patriotism and
:22:46. > :22:50.nationalism. It is a hiding place for folk who are Scottish, know
:22:50. > :22:58.that they are Scottish but had somehow got to defend not doing as
:22:58. > :23:04.Margaret has gone there. Your husband called the Motty
:23:04. > :23:09.nationalists. He has called them everything. The important point to
:23:09. > :23:15.come from Annabel's contribution was there she talked about defence.
:23:15. > :23:18.The there are 29,000 people now in the British Navy. The Admiral's say
:23:18. > :23:21.that they cannot afford to have this aircraft carrier that will
:23:21. > :23:27.never sail anywhere because Great Britain, stronger together,
:23:27. > :23:31.remember, cannot afford to put any planes on it. They would not want
:23:31. > :23:36.to build that on the Clyde. They could build vessels that we need
:23:36. > :23:41.here. Let's stick to independence and patriotism. Defence was the
:23:41. > :23:45.previous debate. Do you believe you can be a patriotic Scot, a fervent
:23:45. > :23:49.patriotic Scot and support the Union? You can make political
:23:49. > :23:53.choices but that does not affect how you are in terms of your
:23:53. > :23:57.identity. I can understand people might want to ask that question but
:23:58. > :24:03.my answer to that is that I am a Scot, and I am passionate about
:24:03. > :24:09.Scotland. You do not question the patriotism of your opponents in
:24:09. > :24:12.this debate? Of course not. I am reassured to hear that because I
:24:12. > :24:16.think there has been unease about some elements lurking within your
:24:16. > :24:20.party. One of your own colleagues in the Scottish Parliament said
:24:20. > :24:25.that Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties were anti-
:24:25. > :24:29.Scottish. I thought that was frankly a provocative remark but it
:24:29. > :24:33.was also a profoundly stupid remark, and the owner has had the good
:24:33. > :24:38.sense not to fall into that trap. When we are talking about
:24:38. > :24:42.patriotism, this is not about who is a better Scott. I am as
:24:43. > :24:47.patriotic as Alex Salmond, he is no less patriotic than I am. What the
:24:48. > :24:57.debate was about his how we genuinely think the country which
:24:58. > :24:58.
:24:58. > :25:02.we love is best served. -- what the It is a fallacy to think are you
:25:02. > :25:08.Scottish in the sense that a Swede is a Swede or a poll is Polish. You
:25:08. > :25:12.are not. You are British. How do the panel reactor that? Article 15
:25:12. > :25:16.of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights says that you have
:25:17. > :25:20.the right to nationality. Given that many people in Scotland do not
:25:20. > :25:30.feel British and do not fit into that straitjacket of Unionism, how
:25:30. > :25:31.
:25:31. > :25:35.do you feel about this? As somebody who was born English
:25:35. > :25:39.and lives in Scotland and is very proud to be Scottish, the only
:25:39. > :25:47.reason that the Labour Party in Westminster want to keep Scotland
:25:47. > :25:50.is because they would have down little charge of getting in again -
:25:50. > :25:54.- they would have very little chance of getting in again. The
:25:54. > :26:00.only reason that the No campaigners and the Scottish Parliament do not
:26:00. > :26:04.want it is because they do not want the ultimate responsibility. In the
:26:04. > :26:07.front row. I would love an independent Scotland, but not at
:26:07. > :26:14.the cost of being tied to Europe and the possibility of ending up
:26:14. > :26:17.with its toxic currency. I would just like to say, we have
:26:17. > :26:21.loads of English boys playing for Scotland and if they can sing
:26:21. > :26:25.Flower of Scotland, anybody can. It does not matter. If you feel
:26:25. > :26:31.Scottish, sing Flower of Scotland. It has no knock-on effect on
:26:31. > :26:37.whether you do or do not want independence. You do not think that
:26:37. > :26:40.identity as an impact? I am a Scot, end of. And I want independence.
:26:40. > :26:47.But that does not mean that somebody who does not share my view
:26:47. > :26:50.I do not think is Scottish. Gentlemen. Independence is the
:26:50. > :26:55.normal state of affairs for most countries on earth, and these
:26:55. > :27:01.countries do not refer to their own independence in negative terms. By
:27:01. > :27:06.using scary sounding phrases to describe independence for Scotland,
:27:06. > :27:15.such as separation, break-up and going it alone, are the No campaign
:27:15. > :27:21.trying to frighten people? When will Scottish Labour and
:27:21. > :27:27.Conservative parties decided to back independence for Scotland?
:27:27. > :27:34.When Scotland becomes independent, what part will they play? And could
:27:34. > :27:37.you raise your hands again. I am fiercely patriotic, but I feel that
:27:37. > :27:44.the decision we make is for the future of the country so it should
:27:44. > :27:51.not be dependent on Party politics or anything like that.
:27:51. > :27:59.I would just like to point out that the UK is independent. You are
:27:59. > :28:04.content with that? Yes. Lots of speculation about a second
:28:04. > :28:09.question. As part of that, we have had concerns about Europe, so when
:28:09. > :28:17.we have a second question, why not make it whether we are part of the
:28:17. > :28:20.EU? Annabel Goldie. A whole cocktail of ideas in there. Might I
:28:20. > :28:30.say to the lady sitting over there that the political challenge for me
:28:30. > :28:36.
:28:36. > :28:40.at the moment is... Survival! The political challenge for me is
:28:40. > :28:43.to argue as strongly as I can for the position of Scotland remaining
:28:43. > :28:47.in the United Kingdom so I am not reflecting on a post-referendum
:28:47. > :28:51.situation. I think we are likely to remain within the United Kingdom.
:28:51. > :28:56.Your question is not for the present. Can I come to the
:28:56. > :29:03.interesting point about the second question? Do you mind if you don't,
:29:03. > :29:08.because that is actually our next question? I beg your pardon. There
:29:08. > :29:11.have been a range of views put forward here. I am pleased that
:29:11. > :29:17.there is some debate about this because it is important that people
:29:17. > :29:21.like myself, who believe very much in the union, are still Scottish
:29:21. > :29:31.and as patriotic as anybody else. It is insulting for that to ever be
:29:31. > :29:32.
:29:32. > :29:37.questioned. It is important that we have that tenor. Alex Salmond has
:29:37. > :29:43.not question that, and Nicola Sturgeon has not. I think we need
:29:43. > :29:53.to have this debate as we go forward. The gentleman who said
:29:53. > :29:56.
:29:56. > :30:02.that we are getting going negative about it... Forgive me, I was not
:30:02. > :30:12.implying there was anything wrong with his shirt. Does because it is
:30:12. > :30:16.
:30:16. > :30:22.blue. -- just because. I could equally argue that I think the pro-
:30:22. > :30:25.separation case is equally negative. We are going to have that. But I
:30:25. > :30:29.think we have to get real in this debate, and I think that Scotland
:30:29. > :30:34.has to wake up to the enormity of the decision we are making. I
:30:34. > :30:40.understand if you take a different political perspective, but you need
:30:40. > :30:44.to honestly understand that many people in Scotland see it. To me,
:30:44. > :30:49.that is reality. There is no doubt when we make this decision that it
:30:49. > :30:54.is about separation, it is about break-up, it is about a fundamental,
:30:54. > :30:57.irrevocable change. Do not underestimate the capability of the
:30:57. > :31:00.Scottish people to understand the importance of this decision. I
:31:01. > :31:04.think it is exciting, I think it is an opportunity, and I think if we
:31:04. > :31:08.can have a debate about how we shake our own future, that is the
:31:09. > :31:18.positive language we should be discussing. We will move on to the
:31:19. > :31:19.
:31:19. > :31:23.question, if you will allow me, the What does the panel think about
:31:23. > :31:27.more powers for Scotland if it remains in the UK? That's the
:31:27. > :31:33.possibility of there being a question on devo max or deefyo plus
:31:33. > :31:37.as well. Is it? Is it not? If it's not, that it's about more powers
:31:37. > :31:40.for Scotland being offered by those who support the union. Can you
:31:40. > :31:45.clarify what those would be and when they would arrive? The reason
:31:45. > :31:49.that I question that, I think there's a debate to be had about
:31:49. > :31:52.devolution. It's a process not an end in itself. It will keep
:31:52. > :31:56.developing. How is that process going? If there are powers to come,
:31:56. > :32:00.what are they and when do they come? That's a conversation we need
:32:00. > :32:06.to have. Could we have it now? APPLAUSE
:32:06. > :32:10.Let me make my case. Because it's a very important point that needs to
:32:10. > :32:13.be made. On you go. There is a very distinct difference between how we
:32:13. > :32:17.stay in the partnership and how we develop that relationship and
:32:17. > :32:22.whether or not we leave it. If you want to leave it, that's a very
:32:22. > :32:25.credible argument. But if you want to stay, then we argue about how to
:32:25. > :32:29.develop devolution, don't confuse the two. You don't think you have
:32:29. > :32:33.to publish details in advance of the referendum? Let's see how the
:32:33. > :32:37.debate goes. I'll argue strongly for the development of devolution.
:32:37. > :32:40.There's a whole debate about the governance of Scotland.. I don't
:32:40. > :32:44.want just to give powers to more politicians. I want to give powers
:32:44. > :32:47.to the people of Scotland. first of all, decide what it is you
:32:47. > :32:52.would like to do through the Scottish Parliament. Once you've
:32:52. > :32:57.decided what you'd like to do, you decide where you get the money from.
:32:57. > :33:00.And believe you me, you can't tackle poverty, you cannot tackle
:33:00. > :33:03.the inequalities we've got in Scotland if you leave defence and
:33:03. > :33:08.if you leave foreign affairs and the economy with London. That
:33:08. > :33:12.always seems to be the case. Because if you do, you'll be
:33:12. > :33:17.spending the money you should be spending on old people. You'll be
:33:17. > :33:20.spending it on Trident. You'll be spending it on great big aircraft
:33:20. > :33:25.carriers. So there's fundamental decisions to be made, but first of
:33:25. > :33:29.all, decide what you want to do from a Scottish basis, then you'll
:33:29. > :33:36.say what the requisite powers are and only then you have a referendum.
:33:36. > :33:41.Right at the back. I think tonight Margaret Curran has been fond of
:33:41. > :33:46.saying it's a false choice. I think it's a false choice about saying we
:33:46. > :33:50.have to decide between independence now and devolution later. I think
:33:50. > :33:55.we should have that debate now as well. The gentleman in the second
:33:55. > :33:59.row and the third row, please. Hypothetically, if Scotland was to
:33:59. > :34:02.say yes to independence, has anybody got any idea how long a
:34:02. > :34:08.time frame it would be between the vote and full independence? Good
:34:08. > :34:12.question. Could we have a question like the, some question for less
:34:12. > :34:15.powers or less power for Alex Salmond then in our country!
:34:15. > :34:20.question perhaps on the abolition of the Parliament, would you in
:34:20. > :34:26.favour this afternoon? Yeah. You're getting a ripple of applause.
:34:26. > :34:30.Gentleman in the front row. Shouldn't there be an issue about
:34:30. > :34:34.the tactics of this campaign. Surely for Labour supporters, right,
:34:34. > :34:37.by and large they want social justice, they want poverty to be
:34:37. > :34:41.tackled, equality. They don't want a Tory Government in London with
:34:41. > :34:43.those economics and a place that can elect somebody like Boris
:34:44. > :34:50.Johnson as mayor, deciding what the economic policy of this country
:34:50. > :34:55.should be. Margaret Curran briefly. My argument is not that somehow I'm
:34:55. > :34:58.saying it's a choice either abolish poverty or not. It seems the best
:34:58. > :35:03.way to abolish poverty is by using the powers across the United
:35:03. > :35:08.Kingdom. When we had a Labour Government tore 13 years, when we
:35:08. > :35:14.introduced tax credits, �13 billion, �1.5 billion in Scotland. We
:35:14. > :35:18.introduced tax credits. The SNP didn't say, that's great. What they
:35:18. > :35:21.did say... But the case has always been that whether you've got a
:35:21. > :35:24.Labour Government or Tory Government, we've always had this
:35:24. > :35:28.debate that the only answer Scotland needs is independence
:35:28. > :35:33.because the union actually damages Scotland's economic interests. My
:35:33. > :35:38.argument to you is not... I disagree with the man who claps so
:35:38. > :35:42.loudly. My argument is not that it's the English that damages our
:35:42. > :35:46.economic interest. It's the political alliance. It's the
:35:46. > :35:53.politics. Tory Government damage Scotland not the English that
:35:53. > :35:57.damage Scotland. Hang on a second. Annabel Goldie, your Prime Minister,
:35:57. > :36:01.David Cameron, has hinted or suggested that there could be more
:36:01. > :36:06.powers for Scotland in the event of a No vote. Do we not need more
:36:06. > :36:10.detail on that. If we don't get more detail, what does the No vote
:36:10. > :36:14.imply? You say you don't know what a Yes vote is or inds is, if you
:36:14. > :36:19.vote no and you don't know what is coming in further powers, you don't
:36:19. > :36:22.know what the No vote implys either. Let's strip this back to the bare
:36:22. > :36:27.essentials. In the audience there are those who support independence
:36:27. > :36:30.and they are vociferous. There are also people who think we're better
:36:30. > :36:34.remaining within the United Kingdom. And there's an element who really
:36:34. > :36:37.is open to discussions on this and is looking for guidance. At the
:36:37. > :36:41.moment, we're in the United Kingdom. The person that wants to change
:36:41. > :36:46.that and have independence is Alex Salmond. That's a perfectly fair
:36:46. > :36:50.proposition, I don't agree, but he's entitled to make that argument.
:36:50. > :36:55.He should put that question. Yes, because you need a referendum to go
:36:55. > :37:00.from where we are now to independence. You do not need a ref
:37:00. > :37:05.doum change, develop, increase, alter the powers of devolution.
:37:05. > :37:07.We've just done it. We've passed the second Scotland Act with far
:37:07. > :37:10.reaching powers. Given the referendum is under way and the
:37:10. > :37:13.Prime Minister has suggested there could be further powers, should you
:37:13. > :37:20.not specify now what those are rather than leaving it vague?
:37:20. > :37:23.APPLAUSE Because I think the dilemma in
:37:23. > :37:26.doing that and it goes back to this gentleman's question, I think,
:37:26. > :37:31.about ballot paper and referendum and how many questions you have,
:37:31. > :37:34.the dilemma is and it's emerging tonight, people have a whole
:37:34. > :37:40.variety of views about whether we have two questions, three questions
:37:40. > :37:45.or ten questions. That is the problem. We need clarity. May I
:37:45. > :37:48.conclude? Yes. I may disagree with the objective independence, I do
:37:48. > :37:54.not disagree with a clear question put to Scotland as to whether it
:37:54. > :37:58.wants that or not? A clear single question. Absolutely. I think that
:37:58. > :38:03.when it comes to hints and suggestions from our Prime Minister,
:38:03. > :38:06.David Cameron, we must bear in mind this is the man that made a cast-
:38:06. > :38:13.iron guarantee that we would have a referendum on Europe. We still
:38:13. > :38:16.haven't had it. It he to be trusted? I think not. Are the
:38:16. > :38:20.Unionist leadership afraid to let the people speak on this question
:38:20. > :38:24.of further devolution because they know the result would seriously
:38:24. > :38:27.undermine their ability to dictate the terms of any further measure of
:38:27. > :38:35.devolution, why not put that power into the hands of the people?
:38:35. > :38:38.you. I've heard a lot of people saying that further devolution or
:38:38. > :38:41.localisation of power to Scotland is right, that we should be able to
:38:41. > :38:45.have in the referendum. But I disagree with. That I think you
:38:45. > :38:49.have the right of self- determination in the UN to
:38:49. > :38:58.determine which country you're in, but localisation of powers should
:38:58. > :39:01.be a matter for the UK Government. Please, Fiona has been weight.
:39:01. > :39:05.points: It's not the first time that a Tory Prime Minister has said
:39:06. > :39:12.vote no and we'll give you more powers later and what happened? We
:39:12. > :39:15.didn't get powers. We didn't get powers for 20-odd years. Learn the
:39:15. > :39:20.lessons of history. This is about democracy. I want to see on
:39:20. > :39:23.independent Scotland. I will vote yes. I am part of the yes campaign,
:39:23. > :39:28.but I recognise that there are large number of people in Scotland,
:39:28. > :39:34.who might not want to have all those powers, but might want other
:39:34. > :39:39.powers. That position is not reflected by an political position.
:39:39. > :39:43.Hang on a cotton picking second. You can argue that. If you want a
:39:43. > :39:46.mandate for independence you put yes or no on independence. That
:39:46. > :39:50.mandates your government to negotiate. If it's more powers or
:39:50. > :39:55.devo max that's not in your hands. That's in the hands of the UK
:39:55. > :40:00.Government. If you put that on the paper, it's for no-one. There are a
:40:00. > :40:04.large number of people, who we have yet to convince, I want to convince
:40:04. > :40:08.them to vote yes. Isn't Alistair Darling right, you wopbl want the
:40:08. > :40:08.second question on the paper because you think it will be no to
:40:08. > :40:14.the first? APPLAUSE
:40:15. > :40:18.Not at all. It's a back up? I am absolutely confident that we can
:40:18. > :40:21.get a Yes vote in that referendum in two years' time. Why don't you
:40:22. > :40:27.put it as a straight question - yes or not? Why toy with the second
:40:27. > :40:33.question? Because I recognise and this is about democracy, it's not
:40:33. > :40:37.about party. We've got 21,000 responses to go through to the
:40:37. > :40:41.consultation that's taking place. I think that's ten times more than
:40:41. > :40:44.the United Kingdom consultation. We have got to respect the right in
:40:44. > :40:47.this debate, I'm not closing that door. The people closing off the
:40:47. > :40:52.door are those saying we shouldn't engage with people who have a
:40:52. > :40:57.different point of view. I think we have to respect people... The First
:40:57. > :41:02.Minister yesterday quoted from exodus, he said "Let my people go."
:41:02. > :41:07.He did not say "Let my people have a multioption referendum". It was a
:41:07. > :41:10.straightforward question he was putting. I want to see a Yes vote
:41:10. > :41:13.for independence, but let's respect the right of people to have an
:41:13. > :41:20.alternative if they want that. Let's see the results of the
:41:20. > :41:23.consultation first. The First Minister is a man of no small self-
:41:23. > :41:29.importance and when he... APPLAUSE
:41:29. > :41:37.When he quoted from the Bible he didn't complete the quote that they
:41:37. > :41:43.may serve me in the wilderness. This is to me a rather frightening
:41:43. > :41:47.pros significance. Can I go back to what -- proposition. Can I go back
:41:47. > :41:50.to what Fiona says. The case doesn't stack up. Since 2007 the
:41:50. > :41:54.SNP have wanted a referendum on independence. You accept they have
:41:54. > :41:58.a mandate for that? In a Referendum Bill. They must have known what
:41:58. > :42:04.they wanted to ask the people of Scotland. I can't believe having
:42:04. > :42:09.spent 80 years as I party wanting independence, they couldn't put a
:42:09. > :42:13.question people would answer. It seems bizarre that having existed
:42:13. > :42:16.Fiona your political passion and breath depends and your political
:42:16. > :42:20.desire to achieve independence that A, you either don't know how to ask
:42:20. > :42:22.the question, you don't want to ask the question or you want to ask
:42:22. > :42:29.another question all together because you're scared of losing the
:42:29. > :42:32.first question. I think at the heart of this is also a practical
:42:32. > :42:36.problem. All of us need to be honest about that. If we had two
:42:36. > :42:41.questions, for example, and 51% of people said yes, go for
:42:41. > :42:48.independence, depending on what the actual question ends up as, as 95%
:42:48. > :42:53.say we don't... Could you make them compete with each other? How do you
:42:53. > :42:55.resolve that? Alex Salmond says he will interpret that as a vote for
:42:56. > :42:58.independence. This is a big decision. Let's not confuse it.
:42:58. > :43:04.Let's make the decision and start getting on with things that really
:43:04. > :43:07.matter. The SNP made a mess of introducing the idea of the
:43:07. > :43:13.referendum. There should have been much more information and education
:43:13. > :43:18.on the policies that we've been talking about tonight before you
:43:18. > :43:24.say we'll have a referendum. But any way, we are where we are. The
:43:24. > :43:28.idea of having two questions addressing quite different
:43:28. > :43:31.constituencies and jurisdictions, the only one that we can answer of
:43:31. > :43:35.ourself and no-one can gainsay is the independence one. Are you
:43:35. > :43:38.against the second question then? Of course I am. I always have been.
:43:38. > :43:43.I told them that in Parliament I'm not telling you anything I haven't
:43:43. > :43:48.told Alex. I thought it was a secret between us! I was speaking
:43:48. > :43:53.to an audience in England two nights ago in Kensington, well
:43:53. > :43:56.educated and all the rest of it. These folk hate us now. Because
:43:56. > :44:01.they accuse us... That's not true. There was other Scottish
:44:01. > :44:06.journalists there, you can check with them. We have now got an
:44:06. > :44:10.English political society that's alerted to the notion of
:44:10. > :44:13.independence and devolution and they will want to have a say if
:44:13. > :44:22.further powers are going to be devolves. So I don't think we can
:44:22. > :44:27.say that they shouldn't have. the front row. -- Gentleman in the
:44:27. > :44:32.front row. In Italy we have an unelected Prime Minister. In
:44:32. > :44:37.Ireland and Greece economic policy daik Tateed by the European sen --
:44:37. > :44:41.dictated by the European Central Bank. Because the SNP don't like
:44:41. > :44:46.the fact a UK election has elected a coalition Government they don't
:44:46. > :44:49.like being dominated by the Tories. This isn't democracy. Democracy has
:44:49. > :44:51.take -- taken place. People spoke about the benefits of the UK. We
:44:51. > :44:55.voted for our Government. The United Kingdom voted for the
:44:55. > :45:01.coalition that we have at the moment.
:45:01. > :45:03.Fiona, particularly on morguo's point. The problem is Scotland has
:45:03. > :45:13.repeatedly voted against the Conservatives and still got a Tory
:45:13. > :45:17.
:45:17. > :45:21.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE This is wherein terms, there will
:45:21. > :45:24.be differences of opinion, we have yet as a government to resolve what
:45:24. > :45:27.whe think would be appropriate. you think there should be a second
:45:27. > :45:31.question or not? There's a consultation taking place. It would
:45:31. > :45:39.be wrong of me to pre-emt that. It's right to consult with people
:45:39. > :45:43.to ask if there should be one or Before the next question, I should
:45:43. > :45:51.mention that if you want to take part in this, to gain more
:45:51. > :46:00.information on this and many other issues, the Scotland Future section
:46:00. > :46:08.of the BBC website is the place. Thank you for that. There is more
:46:08. > :46:12.to come. The hands are raised. The next question comes from miles web.
:46:12. > :46:18.What changes would the panel make to the benefit system to suit
:46:18. > :46:25.Scotland? Margaret Curran. I would immediately cancel what the Tories
:46:25. > :46:29.are doing. We will invariably come back to whether Scotland should
:46:29. > :46:32.have its own welfare benefits system. What is intriguing is that
:46:32. > :46:36.as a result of the current legislation in Westminster, a
:46:36. > :46:40.number of benefits have already been devolved to Scotland. The
:46:40. > :46:44.Social Fund, for example. I would be interested to know what the SNP
:46:44. > :46:50.would do with the social fund in Scotland. We need to debate what
:46:50. > :46:54.type of welfare system we want to have a. I think we get distribution
:46:54. > :46:59.of resources across the UK, which is of benefit to the Scottish
:46:59. > :47:03.people. Because of the bigger economy. In 2010, three times the
:47:03. > :47:08.amount was spent on welfare in Scotland than was raised through
:47:08. > :47:11.well and gas. With the greatest of respect to people, I do not think
:47:11. > :47:14.you can have a facile debate which says, if we were independent we
:47:14. > :47:19.would not have what the Tories are doing and we would just keep the
:47:19. > :47:22.welfare state intact. By definition, you need to debate welfare. If we
:47:22. > :47:26.are doing so, I want to hear what those proposing independence would
:47:26. > :47:33.tell us about the future of welfare benefits in Scotland. Just because
:47:33. > :47:37.we are devolved, it would not protect them. So the changes after
:47:37. > :47:41.another general election are driven by economic necessity? I think they
:47:41. > :47:44.are driven a lot by ideology. As we have seen from the Prime Minister
:47:44. > :47:49.this week, I think they are driven by a misunderstanding of how
:47:49. > :47:56.certain people live. I am not against changing the welfare reform
:47:56. > :48:00.system but it has to be done on the basis of fairness. The current
:48:00. > :48:05.Government is changing the benefits and allowances available for the
:48:05. > :48:10.disabled. Would a future Scottish Parliament carry on with these
:48:10. > :48:13.changes, or would they reinstate the things like the Disability
:48:13. > :48:19.living Allowance, which is a non- means based allowance for disabled
:48:19. > :48:23.folk? Are you saying that the current changes are damaging? Are
:48:23. > :48:30.you optimistic that there could be changed? I am worried because there
:48:30. > :48:33.is no information. It leaves people anxious? Yes. The Disability living
:48:33. > :48:40.Allowance is going to two components, mobility and care. Many
:48:40. > :48:47.people use the mobility component to get Aith mobility vehicle. Under
:48:48. > :48:53.a Scottish Parliament, would we have to return those vehicles?
:48:53. > :49:00.I have a few points to make. First of all, Margaret Curran, how many
:49:00. > :49:06.councillors will be buying houses for �1? Secondly, Annabel Goldie, I
:49:06. > :49:13.am from Govan, where they have the shipyards, and I'm hearing that you
:49:13. > :49:19.have sold our park along the Clyde. Could you stick to welfare? The
:49:19. > :49:22.gentleman in the green shirt. have to go back to an earlier
:49:23. > :49:28.intervention. Margaret Curran, I resent the she cast a slur on me
:49:28. > :49:34.and said that I was anti- English. I am anti- Westminster government.
:49:34. > :49:41.Anybody on welfare, please. welfare reform issue is quite
:49:41. > :49:46.interesting to me, because Margaret Curran talks about the Labour Party.
:49:46. > :49:49.The Labour Party introduced a component of the new changes, now
:49:49. > :49:57.that the Westminster Government are forcing it through. Can you tell me
:49:57. > :50:01.how contradictory that is? With Scotland receiving benefits
:50:01. > :50:06.such as the free prescription, tuition fees and a higher
:50:06. > :50:09.percentage of Scottish citizens on incapacity benefit than England, I
:50:09. > :50:16.would be interested how an independent Scotland could continue
:50:16. > :50:20.to fund this with the decline of the oil industry. The gentleman at
:50:20. > :50:24.the back. A lot of points are made about Scotland having free
:50:24. > :50:27.prescriptions and that type of thing, but it is just that the UK
:50:27. > :50:36.Government chooses to spend its money on other things, like Trident,
:50:36. > :50:39.the Olympics, Jubilee, etc. Can I pick up what Margo MacDonald
:50:39. > :50:44.said earlier about we need to decide what we want and then choose
:50:44. > :50:49.how we are going to get the money? I do not believe politicians have a
:50:49. > :50:56.grasp of the potential time bomb in terms of the demands on welfare and
:50:56. > :51:00.health care, with 20 years' time we will have twice as many over 70 as
:51:00. > :51:05.we have in the prison population. So nobody can afford it, UK
:51:05. > :51:14.Government, Scottish Government, autonomous, devolved, whatever.
:51:14. > :51:17.are stronger together than separate. I think the cuts to the -- I think
:51:17. > :51:21.this cuts to the central part of the argument. It is about choices,
:51:21. > :51:24.about making decisions about what you want as a politician, the
:51:24. > :51:29.society you want. That is why we have three personal care in
:51:29. > :51:32.Scotland, because it was important to us. In terms of free
:51:32. > :51:36.prescriptions, that is a choice we wanted to make. One welfare, we
:51:36. > :51:41.should be able to make those choices about what suits Scotland.
:51:41. > :51:44.Yesterday, we passed a bill to try to see off some of the worst
:51:44. > :51:48.effects of welfare reforms coming from the Westminster Government. We
:51:48. > :51:52.should not be just trying to see off the worst effects. If we had
:51:52. > :51:56.complete control of the welfare system, we could make the choices
:51:56. > :52:02.to make a difference. But what about the point that no government
:52:02. > :52:06.will be able to afford it? Why do we have to control the levers of
:52:06. > :52:09.power? Because in terms of Scotland we have to make sure we have more
:52:09. > :52:13.on our younger generation in employment, because we have a
:52:13. > :52:16.growing elderly population, more than the rest of the UK. We could
:52:16. > :52:19.make sure our changes to our taxation system and our benefits
:52:19. > :52:23.system could help to support what will be a growing elderly
:52:23. > :52:26.population. The best way to do that is to get people into work, get the
:52:27. > :52:32.economy growing. To get that, we need the resources and the
:52:32. > :52:36.opportunity to use the resources we have in this country. How can you
:52:36. > :52:40.actually say that, when the benefit system at the moment is an absolute
:52:40. > :52:44.shambles? When you try and get benefits for your family, nobody is
:52:44. > :52:50.interested in helping you. How is it going to improve with you taking
:52:50. > :52:52.over the benefits system? Because you are right that the way it is
:52:52. > :52:57.working is not working properly, so at least we would have an
:52:57. > :53:05.opportunity to do it differently and better. First of all,
:53:05. > :53:10.incapacity benefit has actually been scrapped at the moment. It is
:53:10. > :53:15.being changed to employment support allowance. Would that still be
:53:15. > :53:19.being scrapped? Also, the welfare state and unemployment go hand in
:53:19. > :53:29.hand. How would an independent Scotland be able to provide
:53:29. > :53:31.
:53:31. > :53:35.training and education for people to move on and get new jobs? We do
:53:35. > :53:42.not have Jobcentres. We need to bring them together and provide a
:53:42. > :53:46.better service. I am sorry, but this is back to basics, for those
:53:46. > :53:51.of you old enough to remember what that was like. This is about
:53:51. > :53:55.integrating welfare and benefits and your taxation system. It is
:53:55. > :54:00.having a common approach to things. Like, for example, not being afraid
:54:00. > :54:07.to say it is immoral, it is obscene that the chairman of these thanks,
:54:07. > :54:14.the chief executives of these banks should earn 237 times what the
:54:14. > :54:19.average worker earns. There should be a cap on wages, for example. He
:54:19. > :54:25.can point to any number of ways in which the system could be improved.
:54:25. > :54:29.-- you can point. And from my point of view, made more fair. What I do
:54:29. > :54:33.not understand is why we have got to be bigger or smaller. You take
:54:33. > :54:37.that basic decision, and then you decide which of the parties to
:54:37. > :54:42.agree with and follow that party. Could you not redistribute wealth
:54:42. > :54:46.more in a larger economy, the size of the United States, for example,
:54:46. > :54:51.or the UK? How come since I have been in politics there have been
:54:51. > :54:55.Labour and Tory governments and small coalitions in Westminster.
:54:55. > :55:04.And when I was coming into politics, one child in 10 in Scotland was
:55:04. > :55:08.born to fail. It is now one child in three. That is their record.
:55:08. > :55:12.does not matter if you're a big or small country. Your approach to
:55:12. > :55:16.welfare will be guided by basic political principles. But I have
:55:16. > :55:21.never heard anybody yet say to me, here is one welfare policy that you
:55:21. > :55:28.will be improved by the fact that you are an independent Scotland.
:55:28. > :55:31.Not one. I think the gentleman at the back made a very important
:55:31. > :55:35.point. Welfare reform is contentious, we know that, and yet
:55:35. > :55:39.something has to be done. Because we must ensure that we have a
:55:39. > :55:44.system that actually does provide help to those who need it. That is
:55:44. > :55:50.not what the system was doing, and the reforms are to try and target
:55:50. > :55:53.resources to those that require it. In Scotland, there are crummy 1
:55:53. > :55:59.million pension recipients underwritten by the UK Treasury.
:55:59. > :56:06.But there are currently 1 million pension recipients. Finally, the
:56:06. > :56:11.sport. Kirsty. With the euro 2012 final this weekend, would
:56:11. > :56:15.independence mean Scotland could make the next major tournament.
:56:15. > :56:19.Spain, Italy... Since the advent of devolution, Scotland have not
:56:19. > :56:24.qualified for the European championships, not qualified for
:56:24. > :56:32.the World Cup. We were poor at football before but we are even
:56:32. > :56:42.worse now. If devolution has not delivered it, let's make sure we
:56:42. > :56:43.
:56:43. > :56:53.look at it. The Margo MacDonald. You are a heads found. -- Bureau
:56:53. > :56:57.I remember the glory days of Argentina. As an independent
:56:57. > :57:01.country, we could say we are going to stage the European Championships,
:57:02. > :57:06.because we already staged big golf events. We could do it if we
:57:06. > :57:12.decided. One thing we will not be doing if I have anything to do with
:57:12. > :57:22.it is staging the Olympics. Margaret Curran, would we qualify
:57:22. > :57:27.
:57:27. > :57:30.for Europe if we were independent? That would be wonderful. If we
:57:30. > :57:39.worked at it a bit harder, we do not need to be independent to do
:57:39. > :57:42.that. Do you know what? It is good to dream, and I applaud that. But
:57:42. > :57:51.the young man I'm rooting for at the moment is Andy Murray and he
:57:51. > :57:57.needs our support right now. reason they do not do well is that
:57:57. > :58:02.there are too many Dundee United players chosen by Craig Levein.
:58:02. > :58:08.would pick St Johnstone players tomorrow. Thank you all very much
:58:08. > :58:12.for taking part in a tremendous debate. Light-hearted towards the
:58:13. > :58:16.close. Superb. Thank you to the panel as well. We are out of time.
:58:16. > :58:20.Thank you to the panellists and the studio audience, and thank you to
:58:20. > :58:25.you at home for watching, as we choose Scotland's future. There
:58:25. > :58:30.will be more debates to come here on BBC Scotland, so please join us
:58:30. > :58:33.again. From all of the team on the programme, have a very good evening.