:00:09. > :00:19.Pro-independence or pro-union, one referendum, one decision, don't
:00:19. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :00:50.forget it is your choice and it's Good evening. Welcome to Motherwell
:00:50. > :00:55.civic centre. This is the fourth debate in a series of discussions
:00:55. > :00:58.in the run-up to the vote on independence in 2014. Holyrood and
:00:58. > :01:03.Westminster agreed. The Edinburgh agreement has shifted the debate
:01:03. > :01:05.past the process and now attention turns to policy. But what are the
:01:05. > :01:10.parties offering? What are the choices and do you share their
:01:10. > :01:18.vision? The audience this evening is mainly made up of 16 and 17-
:01:18. > :01:23.year-olds. They represent the newly enfranchised voters. They will be
:01:23. > :01:32.putting their questions directly to our panel. They are leader of the
:01:32. > :01:38.Scottish Liberal Democrats Willie Rennie. From Westminster Anas
:01:38. > :01:42.Sarwar. Minister for Youth poiment in the Scottish government Angela
:01:42. > :01:50.Constance. Patrick Harvie joins us from the Scottish Greens and author
:01:50. > :02:00.and Professor of history at Edinburgh University, Tom Devine.
:02:00. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :02:08.It's the 5th November. Will there be fireworks tonight. Straight to
:02:08. > :02:13.the first question. Siobhan your question please. In an independence
:02:13. > :02:18.Scotland will there be new laws on immigration? Thank you for that.
:02:18. > :02:22.Angela Constance, will there be new laws on independence? In an
:02:22. > :02:27.independence Scotland for the very first time, Scotland would be
:02:27. > :02:31.empowered to make its own decisions about matters such as immigration,
:02:31. > :02:38.and for the first time we would have the opportunity to set
:02:38. > :02:41.immigration law and policy that meets the needs of our society, our
:02:42. > :02:49.demography and our economic needs. Scotland, of course, has always
:02:49. > :02:53.been a welcoming nation. I myself am from Italian origins. My Italian
:02:53. > :02:57.grandfather was put on a boat in Italy, told he was going to America
:02:57. > :03:01.and ended up in Blackburn in west Lothian, so I would hope that
:03:01. > :03:06.Scotland will remain a welcoming place. But most importantly, for
:03:06. > :03:11.the first time, the people of Scotland the best place to make
:03:11. > :03:15.decisions, impacting Scotland, will be able to make important decisions
:03:15. > :03:19.about how we feel, immigration policy should be implement indeed
:03:19. > :03:22.this country. The Scottish government has welcomed recent
:03:22. > :03:27.rises in the Scottish population, much of it fuelled by immigration.
:03:27. > :03:31.Can you imagine a situation where they might be concerns on that
:03:31. > :03:35.situation? Like other members of this panel, I don't have a crystal
:03:35. > :03:40.ball, I would never pretend to have a crystal ball. In the past we have
:03:40. > :03:45.been concerned in Scotland about depopulation. I represent a
:03:45. > :03:49.constituency in west Lothian that is very diverse. We have a large
:03:49. > :03:54.number of migrant workers from Eastern Europe, they are very
:03:54. > :03:58.settled in west Lothian, make a positive contribution to social
:03:58. > :04:02.life there and also to our local economy. The important thing is, we
:04:02. > :04:08.will be able to respond to the needs of the time, because we will
:04:08. > :04:13.have the ability for the very first time to make decisions on
:04:13. > :04:18.immigration. Obviously, in the context of the European Union, and
:04:18. > :04:23.of course Scots have always travelled the world, and will
:04:23. > :04:29.continue to to to do so, and we will continue to be members of the
:04:29. > :04:34.EU and benefit from arrangements such as free travel. Will an
:04:34. > :04:37.independent Scotland have new laws on immigration? Siobhan has a very
:04:37. > :04:40.good question. It is one of the conflicts will be created. Scotland
:04:40. > :04:45.will be able to have its own immigration policy, but what we
:04:45. > :04:50.have now is a common travel area within the UK. If we were to be a
:04:50. > :04:54.new member of the EU, we might have to have some restrictions on that,
:04:54. > :04:59.because the agreement might have to apply to Scotland, so actually
:04:59. > :05:02.England might actually decide it wants to have a border posts of all
:05:02. > :05:05.things at the border between Scotland and England. That might be
:05:05. > :05:09.coun of the consequences of Scotland deciding to have a
:05:09. > :05:15.different immigration policy from the rest of the UK. We don't
:05:15. > :05:18.necessarily have to be in the agreement if we sign up to the EU
:05:18. > :05:25.That is one of the big debates. There is a huge difference of
:05:25. > :05:29.opinions on that. There is no absolute grarn tee. It is important
:05:29. > :05:33.to remember in an independent Scotland, it is Scotland will be in
:05:33. > :05:38.Europe as an equal partner, along with our other friends and allies
:05:38. > :05:41.and of course, our foremost friend and ally is going to be England and
:05:41. > :05:45.the rest of the UK. Just because we are independent doesn't mean that
:05:45. > :05:50.we are going to stop co-operating with our friends and allies. We are
:05:50. > :05:56.just going to continue to co- operate but as equal partners.
:05:56. > :06:00.Willie Rennie is right. If we sign up for the Shenan agreement we are
:06:00. > :06:04.going to need a border control? I think that is one of the myths
:06:05. > :06:08.that we are going to have passport controls or border controls in
:06:08. > :06:13.Scotland. We don't currently have these things just now and we are
:06:13. > :06:17.not going to have them in an independent Scotland. Your recent
:06:17. > :06:21.conference supported open borders as far as possible with other
:06:21. > :06:29.European countries. We did also debate, for example, whether
:06:29. > :06:32.joining the Shengan agreement would be practical. Nobody would want
:06:32. > :06:35.border controls. If there was a mandate for independents from the
:06:35. > :06:38.Scottish people both governments would, it would be in their
:06:38. > :06:42.interest to work towards a situation where where there was no
:06:42. > :06:46.need for that. There is a huge opportunity alongside immigration
:06:46. > :06:50.for a humane asylum policy. The UK government's asylum regime under
:06:51. > :06:55.the current government and predecessor government has been
:06:55. > :06:59.brutal, uncaring and lacking in compassion and I think we would
:06:59. > :07:03.have the opportunity in Scotland to have a genuinely compassionate
:07:03. > :07:06.asylum system that that meets the needs of people who flee
:07:06. > :07:10.persecution and war around the world. That is a huge opportunity
:07:10. > :07:13.we are lacking at the moment that we could put into practice with
:07:13. > :07:19.independence. Let me go back to Siobhan who asked the question. Do
:07:20. > :07:24.you think we would need curbs in an independent Scotland. It depends on
:07:24. > :07:27.whether we are going to stop people coming into the coun country or let
:07:28. > :07:31.everybody into the country. There needs to be give and take. I know
:07:32. > :07:35.you said people like immigrating from Scotland, the decreasing
:07:35. > :07:40.population was a concern, will there be new laws on that as well?
:07:41. > :07:50.Will you stop people from, tradesmen and women going out of
:07:50. > :07:54.Scotland? More points from the audience. Angela Constance, surely
:07:54. > :07:57.it is more important we make good policy decisions rather than
:07:57. > :08:02.bothering about who is making them. It is surely more important we
:08:02. > :08:12.actually pick good decisions? get a view from this young man
:08:12. > :08:13.
:08:13. > :08:21.I am wondering if members of the SNP and Green Party, do you feel
:08:22. > :08:25.that there is enough immigration in Scotland? And one more. You were
:08:25. > :08:28.talking about guarantees. The truth is now Scotland can't make any
:08:28. > :08:32.guarantees because we have a Tory government which we never elected.
:08:32. > :08:38.And currently they are posing several negative immigration
:08:39. > :08:42.policies. APPLAUSE
:08:42. > :08:45.Immigration is part of the fabric which makes up our society. I am
:08:45. > :08:51.part polish, lathe wainian and Irish and Russian and here I am. I
:08:51. > :08:57.wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Scotland's historical successful
:08:57. > :09:00.immigration legacy. So I think we need to embrace immigration because
:09:00. > :09:04.Watt it, we would be worse off than we are now. Do you agree that
:09:04. > :09:07.actually not much needs to change in an ined pebt Scotland on
:09:08. > :09:16.immigration? What we need is an honest debate. It is a pleasure to
:09:16. > :09:22.be here debating the future of Scotland. This will be the biggest
:09:22. > :09:26.decision you will make in your lifetime. We need a debate that is
:09:26. > :09:29.transparent and honest about the big issues. I don't think we have
:09:29. > :09:33.that so far. Because what we need is, yes, our politicians will
:09:33. > :09:36.divide over the next two years but we don't want to divide our country
:09:36. > :09:41.in the process. Only if we have all the facts put in front of the
:09:41. > :09:45.Scottish people so, they can make a rational judgment and be sure...
:09:45. > :09:51.Which facts are we lacking. As we come together after the result and
:09:51. > :09:54.make a a fairer and prosperous Scotland. You can't say we have a
:09:54. > :09:57.different immigration system or policy to England and not assume
:09:57. > :10:02.that they wouldn't want to have some kind of border control. It
:10:02. > :10:05.would be in the gift of England to decide whether they thought we need
:10:05. > :10:08.add different immigration policy in Scotland. On the point about the
:10:08. > :10:12.European Union. Angela is right to say we would hope to be members of
:10:12. > :10:15.the EU, but it is more important than just to say whether we would
:10:15. > :10:20.be automatic members or not. It is about what the terms of that
:10:20. > :10:24.membership would be. Professor aifry who the SNP have quoted this
:10:24. > :10:31.week himself says Scotland in his opinion would be an automatic
:10:31. > :10:35.member, but the euro and the Shengana agreement which involves
:10:35. > :10:39.free free movement across the UK would be up for negotiation. That
:10:39. > :10:43.would have a serious impact on movement across the UK and across
:10:43. > :10:48.Europe and how we live our lives. APPLAUSE
:10:48. > :10:52.Do we need to be concerned if Scotland has a different
:10:52. > :10:54.immigration policy. I can't believe some of the views coming from the
:10:55. > :11:01.politicians on this issue of immigration. The last point from
:11:01. > :11:07.the audience, the key point from that young man who is obviously a
:11:07. > :11:12.typical Scot, because we are all mongrels in this society, Angela
:11:12. > :11:17.said tI come from two generations of non-Scottish back ground, it is
:11:17. > :11:21.very interesting this point about frontier posts and people being
:11:21. > :11:26.refusedentry into England. At the census of 2001 the biggest
:11:26. > :11:32.immigrant group in this country were English, aquarter of a million
:11:32. > :11:36.of them. Are we going to put up posts for them as well. It is a
:11:36. > :11:40.ludicrous suggestion, because this is one of the key areas, and I am
:11:40. > :11:44.not not suggesting an argument for or against ined pence. This is one
:11:44. > :11:48.of the key areas where is there is a big difference between
:11:48. > :11:52.Westminster and Edinburgh. Because ever since the fresh talent
:11:52. > :11:57.initiative of a few years ago, this country has recognised that
:11:57. > :12:03.actually it needs more immigrants, particularly those of talent and
:12:03. > :12:07.skill and if you look at the debate down in London, it's beginning to
:12:07. > :12:12.sound almost semi-racist in its tone. We don't have that up here.
:12:12. > :12:15.If the SNP are arguing for independence, which they are, this
:12:15. > :12:21.is possibly not their central argument, but potentially one of
:12:21. > :12:25.their key arguments. That this is an area of deep divide between the
:12:25. > :12:31.two countries, especially as the young man also said when one of
:12:31. > :12:37.those countries is being ruled by a rightish wing government, and
:12:37. > :12:43.including for the purposes of immigration Scotland as well, a
:12:43. > :12:46.rightish wing government which is in almost kind of ethical turmoil
:12:46. > :12:51.about the issue of immigration. This is a particular Scottish issue,
:12:51. > :12:55.and you guys out there should not forget it. It is a very telling
:12:55. > :12:59.aspect of the division of the dividing lines which are beginning
:12:59. > :13:06.to open up, politically and to some extent socially between the two
:13:06. > :13:11.countries. Let me take more views from the audience.
:13:11. > :13:16.With an independent Scotland not have to worry about having stricter
:13:16. > :13:21.border control due to English because of the welfare state being
:13:21. > :13:31.dismantled in gland, if Scotland had its own separate welfare state
:13:31. > :13:32.
:13:32. > :13:36.with different Perks and benefits for people who needed them.
:13:36. > :13:41.Surely immigration is better coordinated across the whole of the
:13:41. > :13:45.UK and having a separate Scottish immigration policy will create more
:13:45. > :13:50.complications and problems than solutions. On the issue raised
:13:50. > :13:55.there about the immigration policy from the coalition government at
:13:55. > :13:59.Westminster, which your party is a part, are you uneasy in any way
:13:59. > :14:02.about the immigration policy being pursued there? These are
:14:02. > :14:07.challenging issue but we have managed to mitigate some of the
:14:07. > :14:11.issues. There is no longer child attention in the UK as a result of
:14:11. > :14:15.the of the measures we took. Immigration is a challenge, it is a
:14:15. > :14:19.big issue and the fresh talent initiative to try and bring new
:14:19. > :14:23.people into Scotland of talent was a welcome step. Going back to the
:14:23. > :14:28.gentleman here who said he is from Russian background, all over the
:14:28. > :14:32.world. That wasn't a Scottish government that your ancestors were
:14:32. > :14:37.brought here under. It was a UK government that allowed that access.
:14:37. > :14:40.It is the UK heritage that has led all of us to be here from all these
:14:40. > :14:46.variety of different backgrounds. That is the heritage we should look
:14:46. > :14:51.for in terms of predicting the next 300 years.
:14:51. > :14:55.APPLAUSE Should we be concerned that people
:14:55. > :14:59.from elsewhere in the UK might want to come here because of a more
:14:59. > :15:02.generous benefits system, English students would be regarded as
:15:02. > :15:06.European for the purposes of tuition fees and would be able to
:15:06. > :15:12.to study in Scotland for free? People rushing over the border
:15:12. > :15:16.trying to make the most of the benefits. The welfare state would
:15:16. > :15:19.be based on the basis of citizenship. But the issue of
:15:19. > :15:24.coordination is interesting. The guy there said that these things
:15:24. > :15:28.are better coordinated across the whole of the UK. I think it is
:15:28. > :15:33.precisely the opposite. I think given Scotland has different needs
:15:33. > :15:36.and different circumstances than the much for crowded south east of
:15:36. > :15:43.England, it would be quite wrong to think that one single immigration
:15:44. > :15:48.policy is right for all parts of the these islands. For example the
:15:48. > :15:52.universities and and colleges which need to attract overseas students
:15:52. > :15:55.and that is something which enriches our culture and our
:15:55. > :15:58.education system, are basically having their hands tied behind
:15:58. > :16:04.their back by having to work through an immigration system which
:16:04. > :16:14.is set in London for priorities that understand London and south-
:16:14. > :16:14.
:16:14. > :16:18.east's needs, not Scotland's. The fresh talent zem is a perfect
:16:18. > :16:23.example where you have a UK government and Scottish government
:16:23. > :16:27.working together. In a On the point about the Tories immigration
:16:27. > :16:30.policies and also on the welfare state, I spend every day in
:16:30. > :16:34.Westminster fighting with the Tories and campaigning every day to
:16:34. > :16:38.ensure we get David Cameron out of Number Ten and Ed Milliband in as
:16:38. > :16:43.Prime Minister. If that doesn't happen would Scotland be better off
:16:43. > :16:47.independent? The difference is when John Smith was leader of the Labour
:16:47. > :16:53.Party when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister, whether David Cameron was
:16:53. > :16:57.Prime Minister or if Nelson was Prime Minister of the UK, the SNP
:16:57. > :17:01.would still believe in independence. What we are seeing is disagreements
:17:01. > :17:09.with the UK government, yes we need a change of UK government, but that
:17:09. > :17:15.is not an argument for independence. We can have the best of both worlds.
:17:15. > :17:18.Let's go to the middle here. Can I say that the reason the SNP
:17:18. > :17:23.are fighting for independence is not because of a Tory government or
:17:23. > :17:27.Labour government in London, it is to do with they want an independent
:17:27. > :17:31.Scotland to be the whole country. I can wake up in the morning and say
:17:31. > :17:37.I am Scottish and not British, I don't care about the government in
:17:37. > :17:43.Westminster making the decisions. Going back to English people taking
:17:43. > :17:48.the benefits from Scotland, what about those of us who have moved up
:17:48. > :17:52.from England and we count as Scottish people, would that change
:17:52. > :17:57.at all? Let's see if we get an answer to that. We are going to
:17:57. > :18:02.move on to the next question and it is similar. It is from Alice from
:18:02. > :18:06.Oban. Will tax rise in an independent
:18:06. > :18:12.Scotland? Thank you for that. Short and to the point. Will taxes
:18:12. > :18:17.rise in an independent Scotland. Patrick Harvie if you have your way,
:18:17. > :18:22.they will. I would like some taxes to rise. Some of the wealthiest
:18:22. > :18:26.people and biggest corporations are getting away with paying very
:18:26. > :18:30.little tax. There are hoop holes for them to exploit to reduce their
:18:30. > :18:35.tax burden in a way ordinary people can't. There are resources like
:18:35. > :18:39.land which it would be really effective if we could have a tax
:18:39. > :18:45.that applies to land instead of council tax or business rates.
:18:45. > :18:48.much more would we be paying? I don't think you can give an
:18:48. > :18:52.answer about independence. That is a question about the policies of
:18:52. > :18:56.any individual government. For example, if we had an an SNP
:18:56. > :18:59.government they might want to cut corporation tax. I would be very
:18:59. > :19:02.much oppose today that. If we had a more left of centre government they
:19:02. > :19:06.might want to raise taxes from the wealthy and that is something I
:19:06. > :19:10.would support. We need to have a debate about the opportunities that
:19:10. > :19:16.independence would give us. Not assume that independence equals one
:19:16. > :19:18.set of policies for any particular political party. What we are
:19:18. > :19:23.debating at the moment is the question whether to make these
:19:23. > :19:26.choices in Scotland. I think the repeated failures of UK government
:19:26. > :19:30.after UK government after UK government, to close the gap
:19:30. > :19:33.between rich and poor and to use the taxation system to do that is
:19:33. > :19:41.one good reason for saying let's do it here in Scotland.
:19:41. > :19:47.APPLAUSE Tom Devine would you like to see
:19:47. > :19:51.taxes rise as a way of making a fairer society? Not for me
:19:51. > :19:55.personally. That is the difficulty. We have got to acknowledge to begin
:19:55. > :19:59.with that all is not well with Scotland at the moment. It is a
:19:59. > :20:06.very deeply divided society socially. Some of you may come from
:20:06. > :20:10.the rural areas of Scotland, but we are some of the grossest pools of
:20:10. > :20:14.deprivation, unacceptable morally in some parts of our great cities,
:20:14. > :20:17.particularly Glasgow and the hinterland of the West of Scotland.
:20:18. > :20:24.One of the arguments for an independent Scotland, like Patrick
:20:24. > :20:27.I doubt it can be done at UK level, especially by a government with the
:20:27. > :20:31.current ideology, is that hopefully, but won't necessarily happen
:20:31. > :20:36.because it hasn't yet happened under devolution, some attention
:20:36. > :20:40.will be paid to these grave social evils. Some people in Scotland
:20:40. > :20:44.think we should be moving in a Scandinavian direction. If we are
:20:44. > :20:49.going to move in that direction where there is more concern with
:20:49. > :20:54.social justice and support for the disadvantaged in society, there
:20:54. > :20:57.will have to be an increase in taxation in some areas of our
:20:57. > :21:04.country. But it's back to this question of variables and the
:21:04. > :21:09.future and why I don't regard it as my period, because my period is the
:21:09. > :21:12.past. There's three other issues that have to be taken into
:21:12. > :21:17.contribution, what is going to happen in terms of what Scottish
:21:17. > :21:21.oil and gas futures with an independent Scotland. Secondly, is
:21:22. > :21:26.the actual process, the dynamic that is going on, to provide
:21:26. > :21:30.different forms of energy going to be important. Above all, how is
:21:30. > :21:35.this current recession going to pan out by the end of this decade. This
:21:35. > :21:39.is why it is so difficult to say really that although personally I
:21:39. > :21:43.think we should be paying more to help others, personally I think
:21:43. > :21:50.that, I take that view, whether that would be the case politically
:21:50. > :21:54.will depend on all these other factors. Let's go down to the front
:21:54. > :21:58.here and get a view. If you are wanting to talk about the increase
:21:58. > :22:04.of taxes, that is government policy, so that would be to do with your
:22:04. > :22:09.own political ideas, but if you are looking at the broader future of
:22:09. > :22:13.Scotland, we have talked about oil and what happens with the resources
:22:13. > :22:19.that Scotland already has to provide a sustainable future to
:22:19. > :22:25.itself as an independent country, what prospects are there for
:22:25. > :22:30.taxation, assuming that we have access to our resources. It is
:22:30. > :22:33.often said that Scotland would have a greater economic benefit from
:22:33. > :22:39.being independent, but what are the facts on that? Are we actually
:22:39. > :22:44.going to be benefited from this? will ask for some facts in a moment.
:22:44. > :22:47.On the point regarding taxes, I mean it is a point that we can only
:22:47. > :22:50.decide if we are independent. We can't have this debate and talk
:22:50. > :22:53.about taxes because the UK Government is the one that decides
:22:53. > :23:02.at the moment. We have so say over the taxes at the moment and that is
:23:02. > :23:08.what should be changed before we can talk about what should be taxed.
:23:08. > :23:10.APPLAUSE I don't see why we should raise taxes. Some of the highest
:23:10. > :23:17.tax payers provide the most employment in the country. What you
:23:17. > :23:20.are doing by raising taxes is damaging these people's ability to
:23:20. > :23:29.employ. If you want to get the country prospering, it is
:23:29. > :23:35.employment we need to target and not increasing the welfare state.
:23:35. > :23:42.These two things are not mutually exclusive. It fundamentally depends,
:23:42. > :23:47.what kind of Scotland do you want. Willie Rennie, resource rich
:23:47. > :23:52.country, would taxes need to rise? Going back to Alice's point. Taxes
:23:52. > :23:58.might well have to rise. Just this year, Angela will say that Scotland
:23:58. > :24:03.raised as a proportion more than it spent, that is true. It's only
:24:03. > :24:07.happened twice in the last 25 years. In broad terms it can roughly raise
:24:07. > :24:11.what it spends, but that is with the oil at the current price and
:24:11. > :24:16.the oil is not going to last forever. Maybe another 40 years,
:24:16. > :24:21.you may have the volatility of price with oil. What you might have
:24:21. > :24:25.is huge volatility in the taxes as well in order to mirror that, to
:24:25. > :24:29.make sure you don't have savage cuts in public spending as a result.
:24:29. > :24:33.Although Angela will say we can raise, and that is true tor this
:24:33. > :24:40.year, it's not been the case for the last 25 years, and tax revenue
:24:40. > :24:45.will plummet over the next 40 years. Let's be clear about the facts.
:24:46. > :24:49.Scotland more than pays their way. Over the last 30 years we have
:24:49. > :24:56.contributed �19 billion more than we have received back in
:24:56. > :25:01.expenditure and that equates to �1,000 per household in Scotland.
:25:01. > :25:06.�2.7 billion a year. The important thing to acknowledge about taxation
:25:06. > :25:11.is taxation and the whole basket of taxes that we should be deciding
:25:11. > :25:15.here in Scotland are economic levers. If you are serious about
:25:15. > :25:21.getting this country back to work, we need to be making out a whole
:25:21. > :25:26.range of decisions about taxation in response to the economic climate
:25:26. > :25:32.of the time. Does that mean taxes might rise in an independent
:25:32. > :25:38.Scotland. We would have choices. If you think of the �1,000 household
:25:38. > :25:45.we pay, we could decide to reduce taxation f we so wished, or decide
:25:45. > :25:48.to invest that resource into public services, or we could be
:25:48. > :25:53.potentially reducing corporation tax. There is evidence that
:25:53. > :25:58.reducing corporation tax over the long-term increases jobs. Or we may
:25:58. > :26:04.want to invest more in capital investment, something that Willie
:26:04. > :26:09.Rennie's government is refusing to consider, a project of projects.
:26:09. > :26:13.Every �100 million of expenditure will create 1,400 jobs in this
:26:13. > :26:18.country. In regards to my own brief with regards to young people, if we
:26:19. > :26:21.seriously want to get our young people into jobs, we need to be
:26:21. > :26:26.voting for a parliament that is going to give those young people
:26:26. > :26:32.the right to work and have a parliament that has economic powers
:26:32. > :26:35.to grow our economy. APPLAUSE
:26:35. > :26:41.I think it comes back to the question of what kind of Scotland
:26:41. > :26:45.would you like to live in. I would prefer to live in a Scotland with
:26:45. > :26:48.higher higher taxes to help the young and disadvantaged,
:26:48. > :26:56.implemented by a government you have actually voted for, rather
:26:56. > :27:04.than the status quo that we have now and a Tory government that we
:27:04. > :27:07.have now. Scotland is one of the leader nations in education, in
:27:07. > :27:14.renewable energy. We still have time left with oil, we still have
:27:14. > :27:22.50 years, why is it that it is common knowledge that the majority
:27:22. > :27:26.of people believe Scotland is not capable of supporting itself.
:27:26. > :27:30.Another view here. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty about
:27:30. > :27:34.Scotland's future. You have recession, jobs lost left right and
:27:34. > :27:42.centre. Why can't we wait for this debate. Why does it have to be in
:27:42. > :27:47.2014. I understand the propaganda aspects, it is the anniversary of
:27:47. > :27:54.Bannockburn, the Commonwealth gaiment, but -- games but why can't
:27:54. > :28:04.we wait for the debate. It seems to me they are trying to manipulate
:28:04. > :28:04.
:28:04. > :28:12.the young crowd here. APPLAUSE
:28:12. > :28:17.Let me bring in Anas Sarwar. Is there any benefit in waiting?
:28:17. > :28:22.Imhappy to have the referendum tomorrow. It is the SNP who want to
:28:22. > :28:26.wait for another two years. Angela says we raise more than we spend.
:28:26. > :28:31.She is right if you give that example in percentage terms, we
:28:31. > :28:41.raise 9.6% of taxes but spend 9.3% here in Scotland. Let's look at the
:28:41. > :28:47.figures. 9.6% of tax intake is �53 billion. 9.3% of spend is �63
:28:47. > :28:51.billion, that is a deficit of �10 billion. This quarter we saw
:28:51. > :28:56.unemployment falling across the UK by 50,000, but rising in Scotland
:28:56. > :29:00.by 7 7,000. Let's not pretend that only good things are happening
:29:00. > :29:03.under Alex Salmond here in Scotland. Bad things are happening in
:29:03. > :29:08.Scotland because of the consequences of decisions of the
:29:08. > :29:13.SNP. Your party leader says we can't afford many of the benefits
:29:13. > :29:16.people get at the moment, something Alex Salmond calls the devolution
:29:17. > :29:26.dividend. Would taxes have to rise in an independent Scotland to pay
:29:26. > :29:30.for those things. We have to make some genuine changes in Scotland to
:29:30. > :29:34.take on the challenges. How do we make sure, if you are a young
:29:34. > :29:38.person with a working class background, you are less likely to
:29:38. > :29:46.go to college or university than if you live in England or Wales, how
:29:46. > :29:51.is that fair. I respect Patrick Harvie's decision on that. What the
:29:51. > :29:54.SNP is saying we want to have Scandinavian public services with a
:29:54. > :29:58.tax system of Monaco. That is not being honest with the people of
:29:58. > :30:01.Scotland. The only one policy they have said, the only one tax they
:30:01. > :30:07.have spoken about is cutting corporation tax to 15% in Scotland.
:30:07. > :30:14.That is a tax cut for the biggest businesses in the country. That
:30:14. > :30:20.would mean a slashing of public spending across the country. I
:30:20. > :30:23.don't think that's fair. The Labour Party are quite right to
:30:23. > :30:28.say we can't have Scandinavian of public services and American levels
:30:28. > :30:32.of tax, that is a fair criticism of many of the positions of the SNP
:30:32. > :30:41.take. What the Labour Party aren't doing is saying which of those they
:30:41. > :30:46.prefer. I am being perfectly clear. I want, I like the Scandinavian
:30:46. > :30:50.model, where more taxes go to your local community first of all. The
:30:50. > :30:53.smaller share goes to the national government. But they do invest in
:30:53. > :30:56.public services. The Labour Party isn't yet saying which of these it
:30:56. > :31:02.wants. Do you want the cuts to public services or do you want to
:31:02. > :31:05.raise the taxation to pay for it. What we are saying is, it is not
:31:05. > :31:09.right that we cut taxes for millionaires while millions are
:31:09. > :31:15.left to struggle in the current climate. We also don't think the
:31:15. > :31:20.SNP policy of cutting corporation tax... I know what you don't think,
:31:20. > :31:24.what do you think. I want to come back to the point about the vote
:31:24. > :31:28.being delayed. As the member of the Scottish youth parliament we are
:31:28. > :31:31.delighted 16 and 17-year-olds are getting the vote. But what will you
:31:31. > :31:36.do to politically engage these young people so they know what they
:31:36. > :31:40.are voting for and have an informed decision on the referendum so they
:31:41. > :31:47.don't just go out and pick that because I like it.
:31:47. > :31:51.I would like to ask the member of the SNP if we do not raise taxes in
:31:51. > :31:58.Scotland as an independent Scotland how will you ensure university fees
:31:58. > :32:07.will not become introduced in an independent Scotland. This is an
:32:07. > :32:12.issue very important of people of my age across Scotland.
:32:12. > :32:17.Simply to say to the young lady, it is the SNP that is a party of free
:32:17. > :32:22.education and we have never ever been in favour either of upfront
:32:22. > :32:27.tuition fees or back door tuition fees. Our record, unlike the other
:32:27. > :32:30.parties here is clean. We will move on to another question. Our next
:32:30. > :32:36.question comes from Erin from Stirling.
:32:36. > :32:41.I am completely for ined pence but what happens if the referendum
:32:41. > :32:44.returns a No vote. It goes back to what I said at the
:32:44. > :32:48.start. Whether there is a yes or no vote, we have to make sure all of
:32:48. > :32:52.the country come together and work to build a fairer Scotland. Does
:32:52. > :32:56.anything change if there is a no vote. The two years in the debate,
:32:56. > :33:02.we are going to make the case of why Scotland should be part of the
:33:02. > :33:06.UK. Yes we want to celebrate the 300 years of history and shared
:33:06. > :33:09.prosperity. But I I believe it is our benefit to work in partnership
:33:09. > :33:12.with England, Wales and Northern Ireland to take on the challenges
:33:12. > :33:17.of today, whether it be youth unemployment, rebalancing our
:33:17. > :33:21.economy, taking on the genuine challenges today but also working
:33:21. > :33:23.internationally, through our influence as a G8 country, our
:33:23. > :33:28.place in the Security Council. We are a leading member of the
:33:28. > :33:32.international community. Sounds like the status quo. What I am
:33:32. > :33:38.saying is we have huge global challenges, climate change and we
:33:38. > :33:44.are best placed to achieve those things if we work with other
:33:44. > :33:50.countries and not break our self off from the rest of the world.
:33:51. > :33:55.With respect, I thought that was a serious of platitudes. I honestly
:33:55. > :33:59.fear for Scotland after 2014. Certainly all the evidence at the
:33:59. > :34:04.moment is stacked against a pro- independence vote. That may change
:34:04. > :34:08.over time, but if you look back to the first referendum and devolution
:34:08. > :34:14.in 1979, there was deep melancholy across the land for five to ten
:34:14. > :34:19.years afterwards. It looks as if a third of the Scottish electorate
:34:19. > :34:23.will vote for independence. If that doesn't occur, how are they going
:34:23. > :34:28.react. It is vital for the established parties, those who
:34:28. > :34:34.might win the vote against independence, to have something in
:34:34. > :34:39.place, something like devolution max or going down that particular
:34:39. > :34:43.route so the future doesn't become one of orthodoxy and stability as
:34:43. > :34:48.has just been said. That nothing is going to happen. This is a decisive
:34:48. > :34:52.moment in the history of the nation. The other parties, the so-called
:34:52. > :35:02.unionist parties in my view not having delivered the third question,
:35:02. > :35:02.
:35:02. > :35:05.which is a democratical disgrace. APPLAUSE
:35:05. > :35:13.Not having delivered the third question they have a moral
:35:13. > :35:16.responsibility to suggest what might happen in a post-2014 anti-
:35:16. > :35:20.independence vote. Otherwise, the collective psychology of this
:35:20. > :35:26.nation is going to suffer. I want to go back to Erin who asked the
:35:26. > :35:30.question. You said that you support independence. What do you think
:35:30. > :35:35.will happen if there is a No vote? I think there should be options for
:35:35. > :35:39.Scotland to become more independent. I still think it is ridiculous we
:35:39. > :35:45.have nuclear weapons in our country when we are not even allowed to
:35:45. > :35:48.control them. Whether Scotland becomes
:35:48. > :35:52.independent or not, surely everyone who is part of Scotland as a
:35:52. > :35:55.country must see it is unfair although we didn't vote in the
:35:55. > :36:00.Conservative government we have to go under their laws, should that
:36:00. > :36:04.change? Let's get a view from that
:36:04. > :36:10.gentleman. If Scotland does get a no vote will
:36:10. > :36:14.we get devo max and try and fulfil more beneficial ways to improve our
:36:14. > :36:18.country, that is what we need to know. Your party has come forward
:36:18. > :36:22.with some proposals for home rule but they are not going to be put to
:36:22. > :36:26.the people. Where most people are in Scotland, they want to stay in
:36:26. > :36:30.the UK, but they want to have more control over the domestic affairs
:36:30. > :36:33.and that is what we propose with our home rule within a federal UK.
:36:34. > :36:37.Why did your Scottish secretary Michael Moore negotiate away the
:36:37. > :36:45.chance to put that point to the people in the referendum. So did
:36:45. > :36:48.the SNP. It was an agreement between the two. Their consultation
:36:48. > :36:52.showed there was 2-1 against having a second question. There is
:36:52. > :36:56.technical difficulties with it. It would cause confusion. We looked at
:36:56. > :37:00.it. We seriously considered having a second question question but when
:37:00. > :37:05.we looked at the detail we could not find a way to make it happen.
:37:05. > :37:09.It is important that after 2014 that people understand that no
:37:09. > :37:13.doesn't mean no change and why I am wanting to work with the Labour
:37:13. > :37:17.Party and the others, including the SNP, to come up with a set of
:37:17. > :37:24.proposals, to develop and deliver the plans where most Scots are,
:37:24. > :37:30.which is more powers for Scotland, but within a federal UK. Those
:37:30. > :37:35.powers must be seriously delineated and conveyed to the Scottish people
:37:35. > :37:40.before the independence referendum. They must be cast in stone so there
:37:40. > :37:43.is no possibility of either party going back. I think the SNP have a
:37:43. > :37:47.role. It is important that the SNP play a part in that debate and it
:37:48. > :37:52.is not juts the unionist parties. They may not, and if they don't it
:37:52. > :37:55.is up to the unionist parties. Who said it is impossible to come up
:37:55. > :38:00.with a third question. The position of politicians is to serve the
:38:00. > :38:07.people, I think that was an anti- democratic decision, given the
:38:07. > :38:17.numbers involved. I was wondering if Scotland becomes independent and
:38:17. > :38:21.
:38:21. > :38:24.hopefully gets rid of Trident how With the idea of devolution, I
:38:24. > :38:30.think once we have proven we can solve the powers that we have
:38:30. > :38:36.already, such as health, for example, we have some of the most
:38:36. > :38:40.shocking obesity rates and heart disease, and once we can solve the
:38:40. > :38:45.problems we have, I would consider to go on to devolution even further.
:38:45. > :38:51.Angela, if there is a no vote in 2014, what happens? What is clear
:38:51. > :38:55.to me is that the status quo is no longer acceptable. We have a
:38:55. > :38:59.million people in Scotland in favour of independence. Wefs
:38:59. > :39:05.another million who are in favour of more powers. And if you scratch
:39:05. > :39:11.beneath any devolved issues such as health, there is a reserved issue
:39:11. > :39:16.such as poverty and inequality. I am rather tired.... These things
:39:16. > :39:22.can't be dealt with under the current system The devolution
:39:22. > :39:26.system is still very limited. Why would we not want to be like every
:39:26. > :39:31.other country in the world where we make our own decisions. As
:39:31. > :39:35.individual we value our personal independence. As we come of age, we
:39:35. > :39:40.decide where we work, how we earn our money, who we share our lives
:39:40. > :39:45.with, who our friends are and who we share responsibility with and
:39:45. > :39:51.who we take responsibility for. Why would we expect or want anything
:39:51. > :39:59.less than for our nation. Let's just say in 2014 there is a no vote,
:39:59. > :40:03.what actually happens? Does your party then campaign for the kind of
:40:03. > :40:08.devo max... I will accept the will of the Scottish people as I have
:40:08. > :40:12.done at every election that I have... Does your party then
:40:12. > :40:18.campaign for our powers for the Scottish Parliament I am tired of
:40:18. > :40:28.the opposition parties and their commissionitis, it's always jam
:40:28. > :40:28.
:40:28. > :40:32.tomorrow. I understand why people are pressing, I understand people
:40:32. > :40:36.are pressing but I am tired of people promising jam tomorrow and
:40:36. > :40:39.every coming up with any of the detail. The point I was going to
:40:40. > :40:44.make is yes, I understand why people want more information and
:40:44. > :40:53.more detail from the SNP. I just wish that sometimes we could get
:40:53. > :40:57.back more detail and information from the opposition parties. As a
:40:57. > :41:01.member of the SNP, all my political life, I have argued what we would
:41:01. > :41:06.do both with the powers of devolution, but more importantly
:41:06. > :41:10.with the powers of independence. These people want to know what is
:41:10. > :41:14.going to happen whenever they put their cross. Say in 20 shrbgs the
:41:14. > :41:18.answer is no, do you work with the other parties to bring about more
:41:18. > :41:22.powers for the Scottish Parliament in the meantime. It would be easier
:41:22. > :41:26.for the Greens to engage with that debate than the SNP. We are not
:41:26. > :41:29.brought together as a party by the issue of independence or any other
:41:29. > :41:32.approach to the constitution. Most of us, not the whole party, but
:41:32. > :41:37.most of us, every time it is put to our conference, support
:41:37. > :41:41.independence, I will be voting yes. But if there is a No vote, the same
:41:41. > :41:45.problem has to be resolved. There is a long standing tradition in
:41:45. > :41:48.Scotland that sovereignty, the ultimate authority about how we
:41:48. > :41:53.govern ourselves lies with the people. In the UK sovereignty lies
:41:53. > :41:59.with the Crown in parliament. It is a representation of the monarchy ss
:41:59. > :42:05.the embodyment of sovereignty. If there is a No vote and we have a
:42:05. > :42:08.debate about what else we might do, that conflict still exists. Can
:42:08. > :42:11.Scotland simply assert the right to determine how it is going to be
:42:11. > :42:15.governed or does it need to be waiting for permission from the UK.
:42:15. > :42:21.Because that permission doesn't seem like it would be forthcoming
:42:21. > :42:28.at the moment. If we vote no, there is a danger that the UK political
:42:28. > :42:31.classes, media, turn around with a syringele voice and say -- single
:42:31. > :42:40.voice, say enough with Scotland already, you have had your chance,
:42:40. > :42:44.give up with it now. Let's get more points from the audience. Should
:42:44. > :42:50.there be a no vote in the Scottish independence referendum and
:42:51. > :42:57.Scotland should go on to be devo max, what new powers will Holyrood
:42:57. > :43:01.gain that it wouldn't gain under int pence. Nobody knows yet.
:43:01. > :43:08.you concerned that some people are confusing political independence
:43:08. > :43:11.with a separate cultural identity? We will leave that one hanging. We
:43:11. > :43:16.will come to more questions in a second. Before we move on to the
:43:16. > :43:21.next question, if you would like to find out more information on these
:43:21. > :43:31.issues, all you need to do is visit Scotland's future section of the
:43:31. > :43:33.
:43:33. > :43:37.To our next question and it comes from Grant from Fife. Is it not
:43:37. > :43:47.fair to say Scotland would have less international influence if it
:43:47. > :43:47.
:43:47. > :43:53.splits from the rest of the UK? I think there is no doubt we would
:43:53. > :43:58.have less influence. We might be able to make our own decisions and
:43:58. > :44:02.have absolutely our own way, but I would rather be part of the UK with
:44:02. > :44:06.the big clout throughout the UK that brings with that. If Scottish
:44:06. > :44:09.ministers were sitting at the top table in Europe wouldn't they have
:44:09. > :44:15.more influence than they do at the minute? All the preparation for
:44:15. > :44:19.these big EU summits, where is the big power, it is round about
:44:19. > :44:22.between Germany France, Britain. The big nations of the EU gets
:44:22. > :44:26.together and effectively decide the agenda and direction of travel. I
:44:26. > :44:29.want to be part of that. I want to make sure Scotland has a big place
:44:30. > :44:37.at the top table, not just a seat at the top table.
:44:37. > :44:42.APPLAUSE I have to say, I am always a little
:44:42. > :44:51.bit perturbed when I hear the boys talking about influence on the big
:44:51. > :44:56.world stage. I see Scotland as a small modern country, that will
:44:56. > :45:00.bring good and along with other small independent European
:45:00. > :45:08.countries and other countries around the world will be a good
:45:08. > :45:13.friend and a good neighbour. This notion that the UK is some big boy
:45:13. > :45:18.in the international scene is somewhat out of date. I just want
:45:18. > :45:23.to see Scotland no better, no worse than any other country and to be an
:45:23. > :45:28.equal partner with our foremost friend and ally England and the
:45:28. > :45:36.rest of the UK and to have a seat as an equal nation with our friends
:45:36. > :45:39.in Europe. Anas Sarwar, is influence overrated? I think Angela
:45:39. > :45:44.needs to come back to the real world. We have come through an
:45:44. > :45:50.economic storm and we had a Scottish leader, Prime Minister in
:45:50. > :45:54.the UK stopping a global recession from becoming a depression. We have
:45:55. > :45:59.a permanent seat on the UN Security Council to fight oppression around
:45:59. > :46:03.the world. We have the greatest aid agency in the world, which is based
:46:03. > :46:08.in East Kilbride in Scotland, employs 450 people and has a budget
:46:08. > :46:12.of �7 billion. That is fantastic influence. Actually to make a
:46:12. > :46:22.genuine difference to the lives of people around the world. Why is it
:46:22. > :46:22.
:46:22. > :46:25.that no UK government has ever contributed 0.7% of the GDP to
:46:25. > :46:28.international rate. All talk no action. #Colour#Blue The last UK
:46:28. > :46:31.Labour government created the department for international
:46:31. > :46:39.development, trebled international aid and made the commitment to
:46:39. > :46:46.legislation for 0.7% on that commitment. More views from the
:46:46. > :46:50.audience. Keep on speaking about international influence but the UK
:46:50. > :47:00.is a big party and if Scotland is independent it will become one of
:47:00. > :47:04.
:47:04. > :47:09.the small European countries who has very little influence at all.
:47:09. > :47:19.Is it possible people just watch Braveheart the night before and go
:47:19. > :47:20.
:47:20. > :47:30.Why does the SNP consider it necessary for Scotland to remain in
:47:30. > :47:32.NATO if we become independent? We seem seem to be working on the
:47:32. > :47:42.assumption that Scotland will become part of the EU but we have
:47:42. > :47:46.had no guarantee of this, that is a ridiculous thing to assume.
:47:46. > :47:50.On the issue of influence, what does history tell us about
:47:50. > :47:53.influence? Come to the present first of all, it is ironic that
:47:53. > :47:56.some of our panel are talking about being at the heart of Europe. I
:47:56. > :48:00.would have thought the current government at Westminster has
:48:00. > :48:09.become detached from Europe. And doesn't play any significant role
:48:09. > :48:15.at all at the moment. It is almost an absentee government. The second
:48:15. > :48:18.thing is, what does this word influence mean, who has any
:48:18. > :48:23.particular influence apart from the biggest three or four biggest
:48:23. > :48:27.states in the world. What we want is a society that is Scottish, what
:48:27. > :48:31.we think is our identity, and we should be satisfied with that, in
:48:31. > :48:34.the way any small country is. I don't get the sense of these small
:48:34. > :48:42.countries in Europe saying we don't have influence. What they are
:48:42. > :48:46.concerned with is the well-being of their people. The final thing and
:48:46. > :48:52.this is coming on to the past, such has been the extraordinary
:48:52. > :48:56.migrations of the Scottish people, recorded in a seminal text
:48:56. > :48:59.published last year, such has been the extraordinary of the Scottish
:48:59. > :49:04.people since the 13th century that we are one of the very few small
:49:04. > :49:08.countries in the world to have an international brand. That may not
:49:08. > :49:12.necessarily be political influence, it may not be military influence,
:49:12. > :49:18.but it is certainly a sense of cultural identity which counts
:49:18. > :49:23.across the globe. Just on that point, your party is
:49:23. > :49:26.in a coalition, where a sizable majority of those backbenchers who
:49:26. > :49:34.support David Cameron would like to pull out of Europe. It doesn't make
:49:34. > :49:38.your job of convincing us being at the heart of Europe easy? It is a
:49:38. > :49:41.small proportion of the hoicks. The majority, the Conservative Party
:49:41. > :49:44.are pro-Europe, we want to make the most of the EU. I don't get this
:49:45. > :49:51.idea that suddenly there is a massive surge to leave the EU. That
:49:51. > :49:55.is not the case. Do we need influence in the world? The Liberal
:49:55. > :50:01.Democrats are probably a good example of why dealing inside the
:50:01. > :50:07.UK government doesn't always give you the influence you might want. I
:50:07. > :50:11.agree with some of the things Angela was saying about bigness and
:50:11. > :50:15.this infatuation with bigness. We are part of a big country with big
:50:15. > :50:18.weapons and take part in big wars and we project aggressive military
:50:18. > :50:23.power around the world. That is not the kind of influence that I think
:50:23. > :50:27.we should be proud of We shouldn't be part of NATO as an independent
:50:27. > :50:31.country? I would be very much opposed to us joining NATO. The
:50:31. > :50:36.idea of getting rid of Trident and asking another organisation to
:50:36. > :50:44.deploy nuclear weapons on our behalf, which is what membership of
:50:44. > :50:48.NATO implies, is completely wrong. This idea that a permanent seat on
:50:48. > :50:55.the UN Security Council is one of the things we are reluctant to give
:50:55. > :51:01.up. It reserves permanent seats for some of the biggest arms dealers on
:51:01. > :51:09.the planet. Influence is very often very often about size, it is about
:51:09. > :51:12.the actions you take. Although the climate change conference was
:51:13. > :51:17.terribly disappointing, Scotland was being taken seriously in that
:51:17. > :51:21.process. Because we had taken actions. We had passed legislation
:51:21. > :51:24.with some of the strongest targets on climate change anywhere in the
:51:24. > :51:31.world. It is actions that would give us influence, not just being
:51:31. > :51:38.part of something big. As a young carer I don't understand how the UK
:51:38. > :51:48.government can say they want to spend �350 million on weapons when
:51:48. > :51:58.
:51:58. > :52:05.they are slashing benefits for David Cameron doesn't really care
:52:05. > :52:10.about Scotland, he's English. your party in favour of renewing
:52:10. > :52:17.Trident and spending the the tens of blings it would cost. I am
:52:17. > :52:25.supporter of nuclear disarmament. I think we need to work together to
:52:25. > :52:35.make sure we rid the world of nuclear weapons. Your party
:52:35. > :52:39.
:52:39. > :52:45.wouldn't renew Trident. Going back to one of the points that the young
:52:45. > :52:51.man made earlier on about assertion and fact, the SNP is saying we will
:52:51. > :52:57.be members of the EU with the same opt out, but never sought the legal
:52:57. > :53:02.advice. They say we will be members of NATO, but don't need to have
:53:02. > :53:05.nuclear weapons. They say we would be automatic members of the
:53:05. > :53:09.Monetary Policy Committee but never sought the advice of the Bank of
:53:09. > :53:14.England, it is saying the SNP will write the rules and everyone else
:53:14. > :53:17.will agree with us. That is not a credible position at all and it
:53:17. > :53:26.disrespects Scotland and the the terms of the debate.
:53:26. > :53:31.On the specifics of NATO, talking about your change of policy policy
:53:31. > :53:36.on NATO as moral hypocrisy. Patrick has a different point of view from
:53:36. > :53:44.mine, that is his democratic right. We will both campaign for a yes
:53:44. > :53:48.vote in 2014, but ultimately in 2016 we will staning stand on
:53:48. > :53:53.different manifestoes and different parties in those elections.
:53:53. > :53:58.isn't that at the heart of your party stands a contradiction on
:53:58. > :54:03.being against nuclear weapons but wanting to be part of an
:54:03. > :54:06.organisation that uses them as umbrella protection. Scotland is an
:54:06. > :54:11.outward looking country. Many of our security arrangements are
:54:11. > :54:16.already done through NATO. And personally, I just didn't want the
:54:16. > :54:24.first thing that an independent Scotland to do was actually to walk
:54:24. > :54:29.away from an non-nuclear allies in NATO and elsewhere. In this
:54:29. > :54:32.parliamentary term opposing membership of NATO, it is not a
:54:32. > :54:36.principal move. You You haven't asked your membership to change
:54:36. > :54:41.your minds because of the argument. But because you think it helps you
:54:41. > :54:44.in the debate. Unlike the Labour Party we had a very democratic
:54:44. > :54:50.debate, the supreme governing body annual conference, and I would have
:54:50. > :54:55.thought it would be welcomed and indeed very refreshing for a modern
:54:55. > :54:59.political party to have an open democratic debate. Willie Rennie,
:54:59. > :55:02.given that we hear there is uncertainty over Europe and NATO,
:55:02. > :55:06.should the Government at Westminster start asking the
:55:06. > :55:14.questions, asking the questions of Europe, so we get definitive
:55:15. > :55:17.answers? What we need to avoid is more opinion. We need more fact.
:55:17. > :55:26.The Westminster government says it won't ask the questions of Europe.
:55:26. > :55:30.It is not the position of the UK government to negotiate the
:55:30. > :55:33.independence of Scotland. Let's get the final question tonight.
:55:34. > :55:43.What is going to happen in the sporting teams in terms of the
:55:44. > :55:44.
:55:44. > :55:52.Olympics? An interesting question. In an independent Scotland? There
:55:52. > :55:57.would be a Scottish team. Would there be an issue there of some of
:55:57. > :56:07.our Olympics, who compete as part of Team GB, compete alongside those
:56:07. > :56:08.
:56:08. > :56:12.from outside Scotland. There is going to be so much share being the
:56:13. > :56:18.former UK, that is a big question, it was on the radio the other day,
:56:18. > :56:23.what is the UK going to call itself if it is independence, which is a
:56:23. > :56:28.fascinating question, south Britain perhaps. That is irrelevant. The
:56:28. > :56:33.point is there is so much sharing, Bank of England support, currency
:56:33. > :56:40.arrangements, the Queen etc, I would like to see an independent
:56:40. > :56:45.Scotland at least one distinctive Scottish element, AKA a Scottish
:56:45. > :56:50.team in the Olympics. I don't think it is a huge concern. I think you
:56:50. > :56:53.have got benefits of being part of being part of a bigger team,
:56:53. > :57:01.Katherine Grainger and others. It is a good reason but it is not the
:57:01. > :57:05.biggest reason for Scotland to stay part of the UK. If we were
:57:05. > :57:09.independent we would have our own team and like other small countries
:57:09. > :57:13.we would need to invest in specific sports, like cycling we would
:57:13. > :57:18.continue to invest in that and continue to do well. Probably we
:57:18. > :57:22.would continue to do poorly at the football. Whether people support
:57:22. > :57:27.one flag or another, one team or another, one identity or another,
:57:27. > :57:32.those aren't the reasons why we should be voting either way in the
:57:32. > :57:42.referendum. I have never seen Braveheart but I don't think anyone
:57:42. > :57:42.
:57:42. > :57:46.should be fired up to vote yes or not based on a national identity.
:57:46. > :57:51.For me, politics is about people, it is not about Bannockburn or
:57:51. > :57:56.Braveheart. I have to concede, I don't know a lot about sport, sorry
:57:57. > :58:00.to appeal to gender stereotypes, but I would imagine in an
:58:00. > :58:07.independent Scotland, Scotland would participate in the same way
:58:07. > :58:17.other nations do. Braveheart is such an appalling film that it is
:58:17. > :58:22.
:58:22. > :58:27.one of the best arguments against independence.
:58:27. > :58:37.I don't think the Olympics will change the result either way in the
:58:37. > :58:41.
:58:41. > :58:45.referendum. It was such a tremendous thing that what Britain
:58:45. > :58:49.Chris -- Chris Hoy who won those medals and Kath Grainger who was
:58:49. > :58:53.rowing with an English woman, I won't just supporting the front of
:58:53. > :59:01.the boat, I was supporting the back of the boat and that is where we
:59:01. > :59:06.should remain part of the UK. Time has run out on us. We have
:59:06. > :59:11.come to the end of our time for tonight. Let me thank our
:59:11. > :59:14.panellists and our audience here. Thank you all at home for watching.