:00:00. > :00:00.instant polling suggests might have won this debate, but it was pretty
:00:00. > :00:11.bad tempered and we will assess in the coming minutes how much light
:00:12. > :00:21.has been shed. This is BBC News at Five the clock. I am Jane Hill at
:00:22. > :00:26.Broadcasting House in London. Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg have just
:00:27. > :00:36.finished their second debate talking about Britain's place in Europe.
:00:37. > :00:45.Nick Clegg accused Nigel Farage of conning the British people. It could
:00:46. > :00:53.be Billy no jobs Britain. I thought you would make the case for the EU.
:00:54. > :00:58.But you are wilfully lying to the British people.
:00:59. > :01:09.I am in the spin room, where there were groans, laughter, Cheers, and
:01:10. > :01:16.some brittle debate. `` brutal. I will find out who agreed with
:01:17. > :01:22.Nick, Nigel or neither of them with reaction from Hull later.
:01:23. > :01:31.In this barren brothels, I will digester debate with two MEPs, one
:01:32. > :01:36.from Portugal, one from Sweden. `` in this Brussels bar. I will find
:01:37. > :01:52.out what they made of the debate. Good evening from Broadcasting
:01:53. > :01:59.House. One hour of debate. One that really seemed to fly by. It went
:02:00. > :02:05.very fast, the discussion between Nick Clegg, leader of the Liberal
:02:06. > :02:10.Democrats, and Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, much
:02:11. > :02:17.more tetchy, flashes of bad temper on both sides, we will have fill
:02:18. > :02:22.analysis and reaction in the coming hour. I will speak to Chief
:02:23. > :02:30.political correspondent Norman Smith, she is in this bin room not 1
:02:31. > :02:39.million miles from where I am. `` he is in the spin room. We will try to
:02:40. > :02:44.talk to some of the people in that audience, an audience of 100,
:02:45. > :02:51.questions about immigration, reform of the new, but also a lot of
:02:52. > :02:56.questions about foreign affairs. Let us down attention and remind
:02:57. > :03:03.ourselves of some of the key elements of this debate before we
:03:04. > :03:09.talk to the areas get here this evening. Let us hear a brief section
:03:10. > :03:14.of their opening statements. We find ourselves part of political union,
:03:15. > :03:19.laws made somewhere else, all rather expensive and have open`door
:03:20. > :03:25.immigration. If you put to a referendum would we join that union,
:03:26. > :03:31.we would overwhelmingly say no. And there is a clear set of majority
:03:32. > :03:38.opinion in this country, which is not against Europe, we want trade,
:03:39. > :03:46.took what great, but we do not want to be part of our political union.
:03:47. > :03:52.There is an obstacle, here tonight in the form of Nick Clegg, the
:03:53. > :03:58.career political class, and their friends and big business, who want
:03:59. > :04:03.to keep the status quo, and I want Britain to govern ourselves again,
:04:04. > :04:10.stand tall and trade with the world. In this modern world, where there
:04:11. > :04:15.are so many things we cannot do on own, such as dealing with climate
:04:16. > :04:19.change, you cannot deal with criminals crossing borders, deal
:04:20. > :04:26.with terrorism, we have to compete to make sure people invest in our
:04:27. > :04:32.country to create jobs. All of that means we get more out of the world
:04:33. > :04:37.by working together working with other countries. If you do what
:04:38. > :04:43.Nigel for eyes recommends and isolate and, `` what Nigel Farrell
:04:44. > :04:47.to recommend, we could have a Billy no influence Britain, . `` what
:04:48. > :04:54.Nigel Farage recommends. That was part of the opening debate,
:04:55. > :04:58.which moved on swiftly to a really substantial period of time spent
:04:59. > :05:04.discussing foreign affairs, and you will remember that Nigel Farage has
:05:05. > :05:10.attracted a good deal of comment, a good deal of criticism in many
:05:11. > :05:14.quarters for comments he made about Russia's President Putin,
:05:15. > :05:19.effectively saying he really admired Vladimir Putin, stressing as a
:05:20. > :05:27.political operator, not a person, but this has come back time and
:05:28. > :05:34.again in the last few days and very much came to the fore very near the
:05:35. > :05:39.start of this evening's debate here in the theatre as well. It turned
:05:40. > :05:46.inevitably to Ukraine and everything we have seen happening they are, and
:05:47. > :05:52.in Crimea. Let us hear part of that exchange. If you look at what has
:05:53. > :05:58.happened with the Ukraine, we have had a message from ten years, not
:05:59. > :06:04.just from the EU, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband all
:06:05. > :06:11.seeing to the Ukraine, and join the European Union. While you at it, you
:06:12. > :06:17.could join NATO as well. This is something seen by Vladimir Putin to
:06:18. > :06:22.be deeply provocative full is not we have given false hope to those
:06:23. > :06:27.western Ukrainians, and we saw them with EU flags and banners, toppling
:06:28. > :06:33.a democratically elected leader, which I know was corrupt and not
:06:34. > :06:38.perfect, but a leader was toppled. I do not want to be part of an
:06:39. > :06:43.emerging expansionists EU foreign policy, which will be dangerous to
:06:44. > :06:49.peace. Listening to that, it seems to be he is the party of Vladimir
:06:50. > :06:55.Putin. It seems extraordinary his loathing of the European Union is so
:06:56. > :07:00.all`consuming he is beating to justify and defend the actions of
:07:01. > :07:06.one man, Vladimir Putin, and look at what is happening in Syria, where he
:07:07. > :07:11.can, with one telephone call, could help one of the most brittle
:07:12. > :07:17.dictators in the world. There are 200 people dying in Syria, being
:07:18. > :07:22.killed every single day, and Nigel Farage says he admires the way
:07:23. > :07:28.Vladimir Putin has played, as if it is a game, the terrible humanitarian
:07:29. > :07:32.catastrophe in Syria. That is by and think his position is absolutely
:07:33. > :07:39.indefensible. `` that is why I think. You are happy to go and bomb
:07:40. > :07:44.Libya. And now the situation is worse than it was. Some applause for
:07:45. > :07:49.Nigel Farage talking about Libya and interesting that he attracted over
:07:50. > :07:55.the course of the other applause on quite a few occasions and we will
:07:56. > :08:01.discuss some of that later. That was just a flavour of the debate around
:08:02. > :08:07.foreign policy, going on for quite a while. Eventually, the debate moved
:08:08. > :08:13.on to immigration. It is a key topic here among these men, in the last
:08:14. > :08:19.debate and here again tonight. Very different views of cause and the
:08:20. > :08:23.debate heated up at a point when Nick Clegg took out a leaflet
:08:24. > :08:30.essentially showing this to Nigel Farage, which was an old UKIP posted
:08:31. > :08:35.about the issue. It is a picture of a very and happy native American and
:08:36. > :08:39.says, she used to ignore immigration, no he lives on a
:08:40. > :08:44.reservation, suggesting that if we ignore immigration, the British
:08:45. > :08:48.people will be cooped up on reservations. By staying in the
:08:49. > :08:53.European Union, we will not be cooped up in a Native American
:08:54. > :08:59.reservation. We have got to have a level`headed debate. I do not know
:09:00. > :09:05.that leaflet. It is yours. I do not recognise that. All sorts of things
:09:06. > :09:10.get put out. I would not endorse its sentiments. But it is bad news for
:09:11. > :09:15.ordinary British workers and families that we have had, over the
:09:16. > :09:19.last decade, because an in the labour market, not even benefits,
:09:20. > :09:24.with wage compression and wages going down by 14% in real terms
:09:25. > :09:29.since 2007, youth unemployment doubling, which is good for the
:09:30. > :09:33.rich, but bad news for ordinarily Britons. We need control on
:09:34. > :09:38.immigration over the numbers that come here and over the quality
:09:39. > :09:43.coming here, and I do not want to discriminate against India and New
:09:44. > :09:47.Zealand because of an open door to Bulgaria and Romania. We need
:09:48. > :09:53.immigration policy based on quality. And again, more besides about that
:09:54. > :09:59.issue. We will talk to fact checkers in the next while to assess the
:10:00. > :10:03.veracity of claims that both leaders made. First, let us rejoin Norman
:10:04. > :10:06.Smith, chief Bullet ago correspondent. What sense are you
:10:07. > :10:11.getting? Initial thoughts? Welcome to the spin room. That
:10:12. > :10:16.huddle of journalists are around the UKIP director of human occasions,
:10:17. > :10:24.giving his spin on what happened. Earlier, just over there, was Nick
:10:25. > :10:33.Clegg's main man, who has now gone to the bar to get his briefing. What
:10:34. > :10:38.I debate, Nick Clegg humming out much more fired up and passionate,
:10:39. > :10:44.even David Dimbleby seeing to make some space and give more time on
:10:45. > :10:50.Nigel Farage, but a different debate to last time. Nigel Farage accusing
:10:51. > :10:56.Nick Clegg of wilfully lying to the British people. We had Nick Clegg
:10:57. > :11:05.hitting back, saying that Nigel Farage had not been entirely
:11:06. > :11:13.truthful, much more brutal debate. You are the number two Manford, and
:11:14. > :11:19.Danny Alexander, your take, Paul? I thought it was heated, much better
:11:20. > :11:26.than last week, and Nigel won, he had the better argument on trade,
:11:27. > :11:34.Syria. Danny Alexander, what was your man on? It was a very strong
:11:35. > :11:39.performance. He was clearly exposing a lot of the anti`European Union
:11:40. > :11:49.arguments and calling them dangerous fantasy. It was more Nigel Mirage.
:11:50. > :11:54.We saw the real passion neck has for this argument and the strong bases
:11:55. > :11:59.that Britain is stronger and more effective as part of the European
:12:00. > :12:05.Union. You can have as much passion as you want, but if you are wrong,
:12:06. > :12:11.you are wrong, and Nick Clegg is. We will be freer, stronger, able to do
:12:12. > :12:16.our own trade deals. And one organisation that wants to trade
:12:17. > :12:20.with as, wants to be our friends, and that is the Commonwealth. I
:12:21. > :12:33.understand we have comments from Nick Clegg as he was leaving.
:12:34. > :12:41.Mr Clegg, do you think you won that debate? Very lively, I enjoyed it
:12:42. > :12:47.hugely, and this will remain a major part of the European elections, and
:12:48. > :12:53.I hope those who agree with me, that it is important to remain in the
:12:54. > :12:57.European Union, able vote for the party, Liberal Democrats.
:12:58. > :13:05.Suggestions you may have lost, is that damaging? I have set out our
:13:06. > :13:10.admits not made for 20 years. Nigel Farage has been able to make his
:13:11. > :13:22.argument is, frankly making up facts, not challenge brought `` not
:13:23. > :13:27.challenged. I hope I have shown that we can show we should remain in
:13:28. > :13:32.Europe. And continuing to the European elections and beyond. There
:13:33. > :13:38.was Nick Clegg leaving the debate. I am still with Paul and Danny. A low
:13:39. > :13:43.blow to accuse Nick Clegg of wilfully lying to the British
:13:44. > :13:48.people? What would you say if someone was not telling the truth?
:13:49. > :13:53.These guys are being economical with the truth, whether it be laws coming
:13:54. > :13:59.out of the European Union, which they say is 7%, some say 17%. Jobs
:14:00. > :14:03.would go if we lost the European Union? We would still be friends
:14:04. > :14:10.with European Parliament, but not dictated to. And you man talking
:14:11. > :14:20.about Nigel Farage leading the party of Vladimir Putin? Nigel Farage has
:14:21. > :14:25.said he admires Vladimir Putin. The truth is that Nick Clegg has been
:14:26. > :14:30.setting out clearly why millions of jobs in this country are dependent
:14:31. > :14:35.on membership of the European Union, confirmed today by the British car
:14:36. > :14:39.industry. Dealing with the myths from people against the European
:14:40. > :14:43.Union about the amount of laws produced. And setting out that we
:14:44. > :14:50.have more clout, strengths, jobs because we are part of the European
:14:51. > :14:56.Union. I do not buy the jobs argument. I be seeing tariff walls
:14:57. > :15:02.will go up if we leave the European Union? `` are we seeing? Of course
:15:03. > :15:07.not. We are the sixth largest economy in the world. Nick Clegg is
:15:08. > :15:12.doing down Britain to justify staying in the European Union. Did I
:15:13. > :15:16.detect your guy was making a conscious bid for Labour Party
:15:17. > :15:19.support? Seeing big business was blocked the leaving the European
:15:20. > :15:29.Union, attacking wealthy landowners for going ahead with wind farms. Is
:15:30. > :15:35.that part of the UKIP pitch? If you know how the European Union laws are
:15:36. > :15:42.made by the European Commission it's with big business. I don't buy that
:15:43. > :15:45.at all what we have been talking about here is the views of
:15:46. > :15:49.businesses in the United Kingdom who employ millions of people. I spent
:15:50. > :15:54.today with the British car industry who employ 700,000 people in this
:15:55. > :15:58.country. They made very clear their ability to do business in Britain,
:15:59. > :16:02.to export in Britain and invest in Britain comes from our membership of
:16:03. > :16:06.the European single market. I don't think we should listen to UKIP on
:16:07. > :16:11.this we should listen to the businesses that employ people. I
:16:12. > :16:16.have to stop you. I think we might have some polling to give us a sense
:16:17. > :16:24.of who actually won. Now, if I'm OK, let us go to Joe from YouGov. Last
:16:25. > :16:28.week they gave us a verdict which said Nigel Farage won easily. Joe,
:16:29. > :16:34.this week who won? It's Nigel Farage again. 68% for him. 27% for Nick
:16:35. > :16:38.Clegg. The resounding victory for Nigel Farage. Nick Clegg, obviously
:16:39. > :16:43.on the back foot. Felt he had to try something different. He needed a
:16:44. > :16:48.plan b, his plan a wasn't working. It seems his plan b failed as as
:16:49. > :16:54.well. Interesting. 68% for Nigel Farage. What was the figure for Nick
:16:55. > :16:57.Clegg? 27%. He has gone down? Yes. Talk about who has gone away from
:16:58. > :17:03.him. Is it Labour people who have been moving away from him? Where
:17:04. > :17:07.have his votes gone? It's impossible to tell at this stage, results have
:17:08. > :17:11.only just come through. We will analyse it in great detail. Last
:17:12. > :17:16.week he failed to convince his own supporters, one in five Lib Dem
:17:17. > :17:24.supporters thought that Nigel Farage had won. Around one in three pro`EU
:17:25. > :17:31.people thought Nigel Farage won. You didn't see the opposite between the
:17:32. > :17:36.anti`EU and UKIP supporters. It will be interesting to see if there is a
:17:37. > :17:40.similar pattern this week. Was much more fired up. Talking over Nigel
:17:41. > :17:46.Farage. Much more passionate. Is there any hint that actually maybe
:17:47. > :17:54.he over did it and last week we had Mr Reasonable, Mr Seasonable which
:17:55. > :17:59.people respected more from Nick Clegg, maybe today he went too far.
:18:00. > :18:04.Could that explain the drop? He came across as someone on the back foot.
:18:05. > :18:08.That hasn't played with the viewers. It's a poll of the people who viewed
:18:09. > :18:11.the debate, not the national population. Perhaps they don't
:18:12. > :18:16.respond as well to this change in position. Thank you very much. Let
:18:17. > :18:22.us walk down here a bit, if I may. I will show you these are all
:18:23. > :18:25.journalists now busily writing their stories for tomorrow. This will be
:18:26. > :18:29.crucial really in determining who wins, who loses, because it's the
:18:30. > :18:32.headlines tomorrow which maybe what most people will read and what most
:18:33. > :18:35.people will see. A lot of people have watched the debate. A lot of
:18:36. > :18:40.people will read about it. That will determine how they are going to
:18:41. > :18:45.interpret tonight's debate. Interesting though, if you look at
:18:46. > :18:50.the polling, it suggests it wasn't a great night for Nick Clegg. You
:18:51. > :18:58.wonder a bit whether maybe he went just a little bit too heavy on some
:18:59. > :19:06.of the sort of emotional stuff. I will take you down here, you can see
:19:07. > :19:13.in the corner, you see that little group over there that is Patrick O'
:19:14. > :19:19.briefing journalists. An awful lot of briefing going on from the UKIP
:19:20. > :19:25.people. If we walk down a bit and see what is going on. Can I have a
:19:26. > :19:29.brief word with you? Very brief. You are obviously writing your copy now.
:19:30. > :19:34.Give me your take on the stuff you will write, the sort of lines you
:19:35. > :19:39.will be writing? I'm a sketch writer. I'm really posing obviously
:19:40. > :19:47.to some extent posing the question of who was better, but also what was
:19:48. > :19:52.clearly striking was Clegg, some pre`prepared, some less so, lines
:19:53. > :19:57.that were much more as we were Audley briefed in advance they would
:19:58. > :20:02.be "emotional." He took the argument to Farage. Do you think he went too
:20:03. > :20:06.far? This was a different Nick Clegg, wasn't it? I don't think it
:20:07. > :20:11.went too far. It isn't quite enough. Farage is still standing. In a way,
:20:12. > :20:14.Nick Clegg was behaving as though he had to demolish him tonight to stop
:20:15. > :20:19.us leaving Europe. That clearly didn't happen. The other thing that
:20:20. > :20:23.struck me. I thought Nigel Farage was restraining himself almost
:20:24. > :20:28.adopting the more measured position compared to last week when he seemed
:20:29. > :20:32.to be sweating and relying on rhetorical attacks. Today he seemed
:20:33. > :20:39.to be temper that Yeah. I think possibly in tone, but not in
:20:40. > :20:43.content. To give you an example to suggest he is with a force that is
:20:44. > :20:49.somehow going to get everybody, every European country to leave the
:20:50. > :20:56.EU I think is just a little on the ambitious side. Thank you very much.
:20:57. > :21:00.Over there, that's Nick Clegg's main spinner. Checking his phone. No
:21:01. > :21:04.doubt reading the tweets and texts. Trying to work out how things have
:21:05. > :21:08.gone down. If we go over here, you can see some of the media crush
:21:09. > :21:14.still going on. Let me swing you around here. There is John Redwood,
:21:15. > :21:21.Conservative MP. There haven't been that many Conservative MPs here.
:21:22. > :21:25.Let's... Hang on a second. We have UKIP's doctor of communications. The
:21:26. > :21:33.polls againle giving Nigel Farage a clear win and a bigger win than last
:21:34. > :21:40.week? A landslide, that was very much my sense of it. It really was
:21:41. > :21:44.threadbare stuff from Nick Clegg. The UK message is you sent out one
:21:45. > :21:49.of your knights on his charger. He is going back to the castle with his
:21:50. > :21:53.lance broken. Farage is breathing flames all over the political class
:21:54. > :21:56.of this country. They deserve nothing less. Come on out David
:21:57. > :22:04.Cameron, come on ought Ed Miliband, debate with us and see how you get
:22:05. > :22:10.on. Did you say to your man ` rein it in you went too far last time. He
:22:11. > :22:14.seemed more measured? He was more relaxed. He won last time. 1`0 up.
:22:15. > :22:17.He thought he got the measure of Nick Clegg. He thought Nick Clegg
:22:18. > :22:23.didn't have compelling points to make. There was a feeling if it was
:22:24. > :22:28.going well he could almost be Ronald Reaganesque in the way he addressed
:22:29. > :22:32.Nick Clegg. He didn't need to be combative, even if Clegg was
:22:33. > :22:36.throwing the barn door and misrepresenting and all the stuff he
:22:37. > :22:40.did. It doesn't surprise me. I think we won hands down on issues like
:22:41. > :22:43.immigration and energy policy, strangely enough, which Clegg would
:22:44. > :22:49.always assume he would have won on. He got smashed on it. On democracy,
:22:50. > :22:52.on the referendum, on the sliding performance of the EU, in terms of
:22:53. > :22:56.the world economy, and what the future looks like for Britain. A
:22:57. > :23:01.global future outside, not a regional customs unit. Did your man
:23:02. > :23:06.have a pint before the debate? He didn't have a pint this week. He did
:23:07. > :23:12.have a glass of perfectly acceptable BBC red wine. Lucky him! Jane, that
:23:13. > :23:16.is probably all we will do from the Spin Room. It's all going on here.
:23:17. > :23:21.We will bring you more in a little bit of time. That is the take at the
:23:22. > :23:24.moment. It seems that Nigel Farage again, at least in the polls, has
:23:25. > :23:30.come out on top. Very, very interesting. Norman, thank you very
:23:31. > :23:34.much indeed. To remind you of those YouGov figures, instant polling from
:23:35. > :23:40.the YouGov polling organisation. 68% to Farage, 27% to Clegg, with the
:23:41. > :23:44.remainder don't know. 5% in the don't know category. Who performed
:23:45. > :23:51.best, I should stress, was the question there. Interesting, Norman
:23:52. > :23:56.talking to spin masters, politicians. Let us talk to people
:23:57. > :24:04.in the audience, randomly selected, in no particular order. Joe, orcs
:24:05. > :24:08.Olly, Janice and Clive. What did you think? ? You were in there, was it
:24:09. > :24:13.real, genuine, passionate? Your thoughts? I would say it was
:24:14. > :24:22.genuine. Great fun to watch. Fun! Great fun. You know how to have a
:24:23. > :24:27.good time! Yeah. I don't know if it felt real or genuine. They probably
:24:28. > :24:34.said the same things they say all the time to... Same standard answers
:24:35. > :24:38.think give to questions. I don't think they went into too much depth.
:24:39. > :24:42.Do you think one performed better than last time? Farage probably did
:24:43. > :24:46.better than Clegg. I think that is more to do with Clegg than Farage
:24:47. > :24:52.more than anything. Both of them were quite unpalatable. Clegg under
:24:53. > :24:58.sold it? Yeah, totally. Farage accused him of being backing big
:24:59. > :25:04.business and big government, he didn't shy away from that. I think
:25:05. > :25:09.he wanted to say about being pro`immigration he shied away from,
:25:10. > :25:15.they are not vote winners. I don't think he really looked comfortable
:25:16. > :25:19.at times. Joe, as someone who sat in there and watched them. When you
:25:20. > :25:23.hear the polling which put Nigel Farage ahead, does that tally with
:25:24. > :25:32.your experience sitting in the room? Yes, maybe. I can say that. You feel
:25:33. > :25:38.he performed Yes. I prefer Britain to stay in Europe. , your thoughts
:25:39. > :25:43.now. Did you say earlier that you didn't see last week's debate? I
:25:44. > :25:47.didn't. What attracted you to listen to this tonight? I saw something o
:25:48. > :25:51.about Nigel Farage on the telly this week that really impressed me. I
:25:52. > :25:57.wanted to see what he was all about. What did you think? I loved him.
:25:58. > :26:01.He's my hero. I loved him. I thought he walked all over Nick Clegg. I
:26:02. > :26:03.really did, Nick Clegg didn't give a straight answer to a straight
:26:04. > :26:07.question. He counter acted everything he said. I thought he was
:26:08. > :26:12.super man. Nigel Farage, he took a battering for the first 15`20
:26:13. > :26:16.minutes in terms of what he said about Russia's President. Did you
:26:17. > :26:20.feel he was unfairly lambasted there or stood up for himself? He was
:26:21. > :26:26.brought up all the time. Nick Clegg scored a few points saying he was
:26:27. > :26:33.Putin's side. He kept bringing it up, bringing it ups and bringing it
:26:34. > :26:40.up. It didn't do him any favours, Nick Clegg. My hero. You asked a
:26:41. > :26:46.question. My question what, was would the EU be like in 10 years? I
:26:47. > :26:54.saw last week and came out the same as last week, unconvinced by either
:26:55. > :26:58.of them. My personal concern is that the growing population and lack of
:26:59. > :27:02.housing in this country. That really got skimmed over. That is
:27:03. > :27:05.interesting. There was a lady in the audience who asked that specific
:27:06. > :27:09.question. She said ` I recognise the benefits of immigration, she said,
:27:10. > :27:12.I'm really concerned that the infrastructure of our country
:27:13. > :27:16.effectively can't cope? She is talking about health service, public
:27:17. > :27:21.transport, that is interesting. You felt neither of them tackled that?
:27:22. > :27:24.Nick Clegg brushed it off as if it wasn't important. Nick, if you are
:27:25. > :27:28.listening and watching this, absolutely it means everything to us
:27:29. > :27:31.and the next generation down. I have teenagers. I want them to get a job
:27:32. > :27:37.and buy a house. At the moment, I can't see that happening. It's that
:27:38. > :27:41.strong. Yet, some people might say UKIP would appeal to people who
:27:42. > :27:47.perhaps feel that way, who are worried about their children and
:27:48. > :27:52.grandchildren. He is not do it for that either? I'm middle ground.
:27:53. > :27:56.Renegotiate. Staying in as we are is not an option. I would prefer a
:27:57. > :27:59.middle ground where something serious is changed. The northern
:28:00. > :28:03.European countries will club together at some point to make this
:28:04. > :28:07.happen. It has to happen. When you say that Nigel Farage is your hero.
:28:08. > :28:12.Is that the sort of topic that Clive is talking about there? Is that what
:28:13. > :28:16.matters to you? Do you worry about your children and grandchildren? He
:28:17. > :28:20.seems to be more for the people than me. Down`to`earth and realistic. I
:28:21. > :28:24.understand what he is talking about, which a lot of politicians haven't a
:28:25. > :28:28.clue what they are going on about. We need more housing, hospitals and
:28:29. > :28:32.schools. Of course we do. It's not happening. Clive, to your point
:28:33. > :28:36.where you felt clearly let down by both of them. I wonder what you
:28:37. > :28:43.think of this polling then that suggests Nigel Farage is so far out
:28:44. > :28:46.in front? I don't think he has got the stature on the world stage that
:28:47. > :28:49.we need from a politician to lead the country, neither do the other
:28:50. > :28:53.three. The two that weren't in the room and the one that was. We don't
:28:54. > :28:57.have the stature of politicians. I think Nick Clegg again came over as
:28:58. > :29:02.the bullying Head Boy, who didn't take the public seriously. I would
:29:03. > :29:06.say that to his face if he was here now. Very interesting point on which
:29:07. > :29:10.to end. Someone is telling me on the end he left without saying very much
:29:11. > :29:16.at all. Nigel Farage without saying much at all. I misunderstood that.
:29:17. > :29:20.Nick Clegg said a few words. I was told that Nigel Farage had a small
:29:21. > :29:25.glass of BBC red wine. I will leave you with that thought. I can't offer
:29:26. > :29:29.you one of those. You might be able to find somewhere locally. Thank you
:29:30. > :29:33.for waiting in the cold for us. The thank you for giving us your
:29:34. > :29:36.opinions. Four randomly selected people in the audience there.
:29:37. > :29:40.Interesting to hear from one person who did ask a question that despite
:29:41. > :29:47.that really dramatic difference in the polling there, 68% to Nigel
:29:48. > :29:52.Farage and 27 to Nick Clegg he felt his question wasn't addressed by
:29:53. > :29:58.either leader. That is interesting. We will see if that turns out in the
:29:59. > :30:00.longer term polling. We can now return to Hull our political
:30:01. > :30:09.correspondent is there. What are people saying to you there, Tim?
:30:10. > :30:13.longer term polling. We can now return to Hull our political There
:30:14. > :30:19.was a lot at stake for both men. Nigel Farage wants to win over
:30:20. > :30:24.voters. Nick Clegg wants to win back many voters that his party lost
:30:25. > :30:29.since it went into coalition with the Conservative Party. I have two
:30:30. > :30:35.party activists from both sides. You are the regional chairman of UKIP in
:30:36. > :30:41.Yorkshire. A pretty bad tempered of fear, the debate? Nigel has pulled
:30:42. > :30:46.it out the bag again, standing up for Great Britain and the British
:30:47. > :30:51.people against Nick Clegg, who was standing up for the European Union,
:30:52. > :30:58.securing his pension money when he retires, and I think we have seen
:30:59. > :31:05.that and, and made it 22nd, it will be when the people decide who they
:31:06. > :31:11.believe. `` on neighbour 22nd. Had you ever seen that poster before,
:31:12. > :31:17.seeing whether Native American, that people could end up on the
:31:18. > :31:24.reservation? That was in the late 1990s, with someone standing in a
:31:25. > :31:30.council seat. As soon as we saw that poster, we as the person to get rid
:31:31. > :31:36.of it. They have obviously find this, they are desperate, going back
:31:37. > :31:43.into history to find these things. You are live adult `` you are
:31:44. > :31:49.Liberal Democrat councillor. It is said that Nigel Farage increased his
:31:50. > :31:55.lead over Nick Clegg. Bad news for you? Nick Clegg got out his key
:31:56. > :32:00.message saying that we will be in work when we are in Europe.
:32:01. > :32:06.Important to communicate that to thousands of voters, really good for
:32:07. > :32:11.the Lib Dems. But will that performance win back lost voters
:32:12. > :32:18.across the UK that your party has lost since going into government?
:32:19. > :32:24.Jobs is the key issue, coming up all of the time. We need those jobs,
:32:25. > :32:32.those that we have, because we had in the EU. If we are not, a lot of
:32:33. > :32:39.those jobs would not happen. If UKIP were in charge, we would not have
:32:40. > :32:44.those jobs. This is the old 3 million jobs that comes out every
:32:45. > :32:50.time, tired old argument, complete rubbish. We were speaking to one
:32:51. > :32:57.professor who wrote the report 15 years ago and he says it was taken
:32:58. > :33:04.out of context, there will be no jobs lost if we come out of the EU.
:33:05. > :33:11.One company did not come to this city because we are in the EU, but
:33:12. > :33:20.to make a profit, they came here to make a profit. It is scare tactics
:33:21. > :33:25.that the Lib Dems put out every time to try and get the votes. Siemens
:33:26. > :33:30.announced it is building a wind turbine manufacturing plant to
:33:31. > :33:38.create 1000 jobs. The point UKIP make as they would come anyway
:33:39. > :33:45.because it is profitable? But the UK boss said it would not be able to
:33:46. > :33:51.get Siemens to invest if the UK was not in the EU. The boss said that.
:33:52. > :33:57.On the jobs issue, there has been a new report coming out saying it is
:33:58. > :34:03.more like 4 million jobs linked to the EU add more important for jobs
:34:04. > :34:07.in the North than in the south, someone important for faces like
:34:08. > :34:14.Hull. Nick came out fighting, no more of the nice guy. Polls suggest
:34:15. > :34:22.he came off deck and best? `` second best. He needs to come out fighting.
:34:23. > :34:27.He is the one doing that fighting. We have not seen Ed Miliband biting,
:34:28. > :34:34.not seen David Cameron fighting. It is Nick Clegg fighting for Britain
:34:35. > :34:44.and places like Hull. Will you celebrate with a pint tonight? Yes,
:34:45. > :34:51.and I am sure Nigel will be. None of that BBC red wine on a very cold
:34:52. > :34:57.night in Hull. We have heard from a UKIP campaigner and a Lib Dem
:34:58. > :35:05.councillor. It is 1`all. That is the result of the Hull jury.
:35:06. > :35:12.Tim Iredale in Hull. Possibly more from him later. Note to return to
:35:13. > :35:18.the spin room, Norman Smith has more guest.
:35:19. > :35:25.I will talk to John Redwood in a few minutes, but want to read some
:35:26. > :35:34.details of the pole. `` poll. Nigel Farage got 68%, Nick Clegg down to
:35:35. > :35:43.27%. Compare that to last week, when 57% for Nigel Farage. Nick Clegg has
:35:44. > :35:50.plummeted nine points from 36%. 33% of Liberal Democrats think Nigel
:35:51. > :35:56.Farage won. 50% of the pro`European is in the audience, believing we
:35:57. > :36:01.should be in the European Union, believe Nigel Farage won. In
:36:02. > :36:06.appalling terms, it would appear close to a knockout for Nigel
:36:07. > :36:10.Farage, a fairly substantial significant lead. John Redwood was
:36:11. > :36:21.watching that debate. And you surprised by those polls? I thought
:36:22. > :36:26.Nigel Farage had won it, I thought Nick Clegg shouted too much, and he
:36:27. > :36:33.caricatured Mr Farage in a way that was grotesque. Wouldn't you be
:36:34. > :36:42.worried to is doing so well, because he is coming after your votes? I am
:36:43. > :36:46.not worried. The public will now want to hear the Conservative
:36:47. > :36:53.proposal that we will negotiate a new relationship. We need that. We
:36:54. > :36:57.do not want power is going to Europe. We will trust the British
:36:58. > :37:03.people with the referendum. The problem for Mr Farage is offering a
:37:04. > :37:07.referendum, but no MPs in the House of Commons to deliver it. The
:37:08. > :37:13.Conservative Party is close to a majority to give that referendum.
:37:14. > :37:18.You may be won to Nigel Farage to fade away? If his strength grows, it
:37:19. > :37:27.in crutches on your territory, but it could be more likely that the
:37:28. > :37:32.Labour Party could win the election. I am not afraid of democratic
:37:33. > :37:37.debate. Come the election, we need people to vote for a Conservative
:37:38. > :37:41.majority government which is the only thing that can deliver that
:37:42. > :37:46.relationship we might want and more importantly the referendum so that
:37:47. > :37:53.people know that, if they do not like the deal, we can vote to leave.
:37:54. > :37:57.Why do you think we saw that fall in support for Nick Clegg tonight?
:37:58. > :38:02.Maybe it was overcompensating for last week with a consensus that he
:38:03. > :38:07.was too restrained. I think he was too shouted, had questionable facts
:38:08. > :38:12.and figures, rely too much on attacking his opponent, and I am not
:38:13. > :38:18.surprised that the pro`European is the. Like that he did not come out
:38:19. > :38:22.and say why Europe needed all these powers. He seemed terribly defensive
:38:23. > :38:28.about the huge power Europe has and denied how much lawmaking capacity
:38:29. > :38:33.it enjoys. Thank you. I will see if I can interrupt my colleague, Chris
:38:34. > :38:39.Mason, who will tolerate this rude interruption. Tim Farron, these hall
:38:40. > :38:48.readings are not good for your man, down at 27%. And you joking? Have
:38:49. > :38:53.you seen the Lib Dem ratings? I thought Nick won the debate
:38:54. > :38:58.handsomely. The first serious politician for 20 years or more to
:38:59. > :39:04.take on the anti`European rhetoric peddled by the political classes of
:39:05. > :39:09.which Nigel Farage is part, showing bravery to show the unpopular side
:39:10. > :39:15.of the debate and bravely. He won comfortably. If you look at the
:39:16. > :39:20.Liberal Democrat's position, this is a massive step in the right
:39:21. > :39:28.direction. One other fighting from the polls is 33% of Liberal
:39:29. > :39:35.Democrats thought Nigel Farage won. Liberals are so reasonable. That is
:39:36. > :39:40.just life. I thought we won the debate comfortably. What is moral
:39:41. > :39:45.board and is we stand up for Britain. This was never about being
:39:46. > :39:51.pro`or anti`Europe. If it in the interest of Britain to defend 3`4
:39:52. > :39:57.million jobs? Of course it is. It is right that Nick showed the bravery
:39:58. > :40:03.and principle to take that on. He came first. I'm sure who came third
:40:04. > :40:08.and fourth and that is Ed Miliband and David Cameron. How far was
:40:09. > :40:13.denied a wake`up call for pro`Europeans? It would seem there
:40:14. > :40:27.is some more mental behind Nigel Farage `` is some more mental? ``
:40:28. > :40:31.some momentum. We do not want to risk jobs unless someone has the
:40:32. > :40:36.backbone and principle to stand up for Britain's interests and Nick
:40:37. > :40:43.Clegg is that man. Thank goodness someone is doing it. I know you said
:40:44. > :40:48.your man won. But was he overcompensating for last week with
:40:49. > :40:55.a much more abrasive, in your face Nick Clegg, may be going too far? It
:40:56. > :41:01.is good to be passionate. Facts and figures were focused on last week. A
:41:02. > :41:06.lot of the fact that Nigel Farage bases his arguments are pretty much
:41:07. > :41:11.made up. This week, it was right to say that being part of this European
:41:12. > :41:14.Union is not some boring constitutional argument, it is
:41:15. > :41:19.important to have a job, whether industry stays or leaves in Britain,
:41:20. > :41:24.important to catch criminals, important that we tackle climate
:41:25. > :41:29.change, peace and security, it matters that we remain part of the
:41:30. > :41:33.European Union to face threats to those challenges. We should be
:41:34. > :41:38.passionate about this and so is Nick Clegg. Very interesting
:41:39. > :41:45.interpretations of what happened. All the journalists getting down to
:41:46. > :41:50.the details of their stories for tomorrow's newspapers, many of them
:41:51. > :41:56.picking up these all findings that are quite stark, 68% for Nigel
:41:57. > :42:05.Farage, a great thumping majority, Nick Clegg down to 27%, and one
:42:06. > :42:10.third of Liberal Democrats actually deciding that Nigel Farage was the
:42:11. > :42:16.winner. And I expect, speaking to some journalist later, I expect that
:42:17. > :42:23.many of them all right about a victory for Nigel Farage.
:42:24. > :42:28.`` will write about. We will do some fact checking here.
:42:29. > :42:36.Before we do so, let us head to Brussels itself and Ben Wright has
:42:37. > :42:42.been taking the temperature. We have heard a lot about what Nick
:42:43. > :42:47.Clegg and Nigel Farage make of Brussels, so we thought we would see
:42:48. > :42:51.what Brussels makes of them, in a bar opposite European Commission.
:42:52. > :42:56.Maybe some more important in the Champions' League football match,
:42:57. > :43:09.but we saw two MEPs watching the debate. We have an MEP, conservative
:43:10. > :43:16.from Sweden. And a former diplomat and now Socialist MEP from Portugal.
:43:17. > :43:24.You watch the debate, the whole hour, what was your impression? I
:43:25. > :43:30.was struck by this beach of Mr Farage, impressing the negatively,
:43:31. > :43:36.very backwards, 19th century, anti`globalisation, and against the
:43:37. > :43:42.regulation we need to make globalisation work for the people
:43:43. > :43:48.and he was lying, scaremongering, all this talk about immigration,
:43:49. > :43:56.what if Portugal or Spain decided to have the same policy and take out
:43:57. > :44:02.all the Britons they are in retirement? `` kick out. It is
:44:03. > :44:07.ridiculous. He spoke about the Nazis party in Greece, which has exactly
:44:08. > :44:13.the same speeches as he has. This was very anti`British when he was
:44:14. > :44:18.cleaning the tutors. `` when he was claiming patriotism. He was against
:44:19. > :44:28.the values for which I believe Britain stands for. How did the
:44:29. > :44:32.debate look to you? I have heard Nigel Farage before, he is a
:44:33. > :44:38.populist giving a simplistic picture. I am not a big fan of the
:44:39. > :44:46.Liberal Democrats, particularly here in Brussels, but I was impressed by
:44:47. > :44:52.Nick Clegg. He put a pretty good argument. But I missed `` but it is
:44:53. > :44:58.complicated to work with others. We saw examples of the complications of
:44:59. > :45:04.being part of the European Union, but how complicated is the world
:45:05. > :45:11.outside? That was not part of the debate. And what about the debate
:45:12. > :45:18.about being in or out, how does that look to people over here? Nick Clegg
:45:19. > :45:23.is in power with the Tories, who want a referendum, who are indeed
:45:24. > :45:30.giving the floor to all these people with this supposed sovereign speech,
:45:31. > :45:37.it's actually against the interests of Britain because it's for a Europe
:45:38. > :45:42.that is passed. That kind of challenges we face are trance nation
:45:43. > :45:46.alchallenges no country alone can face, big terrorism and big
:45:47. > :45:55.organised crime. If Britain wants to change Europe. As a socialist, also
:45:56. > :45:58.critical of Europe, this Europe of ultra liberalism. If we need change,
:45:59. > :46:02.we need Britain inside Europe working for change. Britain is very
:46:03. > :46:10.much responsible for a lot of things that I want changed, namely all this
:46:11. > :46:15.financial deregulation, tax evasion and tax fraud. I disagree with
:46:16. > :46:18.everything she says right now. What I think is so strange in this
:46:19. > :46:21.debate. For example, if this would have been Sweden, you would have a
:46:22. > :46:26.lot of criticism over the European Union. A lot of criticism that a lot
:46:27. > :46:30.of Brits would agree with, but leaving is not an option. That is `
:46:31. > :46:35.I think that is the difference between Britain and most... There is
:46:36. > :46:38.a lot of talk in Brussels about the democratic deficit at the heart of
:46:39. > :46:41.the European Union that populations don't feel connection with this
:46:42. > :46:46.place. This is deep distrust. That is what this debate is having out in
:46:47. > :46:50.public. Trying to increase the engagement. Do you think this debate
:46:51. > :46:55.should happen in your countries? The debate in itself is good. You
:46:56. > :47:00.haven't debated Europe enough in Britain. The problem is that when
:47:01. > :47:04.you do it explodes in the face of everybody. The problem is, if you
:47:05. > :47:08.should have a reasonable debate, debate the option of being in,
:47:09. > :47:15.working reform into the debate, how to reform the European Union. Last
:47:16. > :47:19.word to you? We need ` I'm critical about this democratic deficit, it by
:47:20. > :47:22.participating in the next European elections in electing people that
:47:23. > :47:28.really want to change Europe in a way that is responsible ``
:47:29. > :47:31.responsive to the citizens concerned. The citizens concerned
:47:32. > :47:36.are about unemployment and growth that is sustainable. That will of
:47:37. > :47:43.course you cannot do outside the EU. You need to pursue the fight inside
:47:44. > :47:49.the EU. Anna and Christopher, thank you very much for giving up your
:47:50. > :47:54.evening and watching the debate with us. Thank you Ben Wright in
:47:55. > :47:57.Brussels. We will talk to a few more people here in a couple of minutes
:47:58. > :48:01.who were in the audience here at the Radio Theatre. Before I do that,
:48:02. > :48:07.let's head to another part of Westminster, let's get the thoughts
:48:08. > :48:11.of the Labour MP Emily Thornberry,ed Shadow Attorney General, Labour MP
:48:12. > :48:15.in London. Good evening to you, Emily Thornberry. Do you think
:48:16. > :48:20.Britain's voters have been well served by this debate this evening?
:48:21. > :48:25.Hi, Jane. I have to be honest with you, I had low expectations of this
:48:26. > :48:27.debate. I didn't really think it was talking about things that people
:48:28. > :48:32.talk to me about, in terms of their priorities. Their priorities are I
:48:33. > :48:38.think about making ends meet. And, so I wasn't really expecting much.
:48:39. > :48:42.It was Better than I thought. It is, in the end, it is a side show. The
:48:43. > :48:46.important thing is seeing the debate between the two people who may be
:48:47. > :48:49.the next Prime Minister. Our worry at the moment is that the Tories
:48:50. > :48:52.seemed to have pulled out of negotiations in relation to there
:48:53. > :48:56.being a debate between the two main party leaders. They don't want to
:48:57. > :49:00.talk about it until after party conferences. If they do pull out,
:49:01. > :49:04.people will be very disappointed in that because I think that debate,
:49:05. > :49:08.between the two potential Prime Ministers, will be about the real
:49:09. > :49:13.bread`and`butter issues that affect people on a day`to`day basis. One
:49:14. > :49:16.observation tonight said that you can debate whether Nigel Farage was
:49:17. > :49:20.first or Nick Clegg was second, or the other way round is, the bottom
:49:21. > :49:24.line is the people who were third and fourth were David Cameron and Ed
:49:25. > :49:27.Miliband. They didn't step up to the plate and didn't engage, even though
:49:28. > :49:33.they recognise that people have genuine concerns regarding the issue
:49:34. > :49:38.of Europe? I don't think that it is a major concern of most people. I
:49:39. > :49:42.also think that it was a debate between one man who people don't
:49:43. > :49:46.really trust and another one who people don't really want. I think it
:49:47. > :49:50.was a side show. I think there are more important issues to debate.
:49:51. > :49:53.There are some people who do feel passionately about it, but they
:49:54. > :49:59.don't represent the majority of people. That's how it is. You say
:50:00. > :50:04.most people aren't interested, we have seen tonight, we saw it in the
:50:05. > :50:08.debate last week, that the issue of immigration actually does matter to
:50:09. > :50:13.an awful lot of people. It does actually tie in, for some people,
:50:14. > :50:20.for some voters, with the cost of living argument that you started by
:50:21. > :50:24.talking about? There might be people listening to you thinking, that is
:50:25. > :50:33.high`handed. I'm struggling, I think it feeds into what is in my pocket
:50:34. > :50:37.and how I'm struggling right now? You went into the issue of
:50:38. > :50:42.immigration. I have no doubt that people do have concerns about
:50:43. > :50:47.immigration and they have concerns about what the affect it may have on
:50:48. > :50:50.uncertain parts of the country when there is a large amount of
:50:51. > :50:55.immigration that goes into a particular area at short notice and
:50:56. > :51:01.people aren't used to it. I understand that completely. I
:51:02. > :51:06.dibated with Nigel Farage on that on question Time `` debated. This was
:51:07. > :51:10.supposed to be billed as a debate about Europe, primarily. I think
:51:11. > :51:14.primarily, people want to get on with their day`to`day life. I don't
:51:15. > :51:17.think people feel that the issues of Europe and many of the things they
:51:18. > :51:21.were talking about tonight were particularly important. I'm sorry, I
:51:22. > :51:27.know we are not going to agree, but I watched it. That's my view. Thank
:51:28. > :51:35.you very much indeed for your time tonight. We will talk to audience
:51:36. > :51:40.members in a moment. Anti` Uben is with me. What were the key issues
:51:41. > :51:47.that stood out. What is keeping you gainfully employed this evening? We
:51:48. > :51:52.were promised a ding`dong row, the battle was over how much of our Lous
:51:53. > :51:59.were dictated from Brussels. With Nigel Farage accusing Nick Clegg
:52:00. > :52:02.ofling lying to the British public with this 7% figure, which is the
:52:03. > :52:07.number of parliamentary stat oars that come from Brussels and if you
:52:08. > :52:13.include a few things that aren't pry Mary legislation you can get to 14%.
:52:14. > :52:16.If you include all those legislations you can get to 50%.
:52:17. > :52:21.UKIP wants to use a figure of 75%, which they worked out themselves by
:52:22. > :52:27.taking a German study from a few years ago. 84% in Germany. UKIP
:52:28. > :52:32.decided it's 75% we are not part of the euro they have extrapolated.
:52:33. > :52:38.They are saying 75%. Nick Clegg saying 7%. You can get higher than
:52:39. > :52:41.7%, hard to get over 50%. The 75% figures look perhaps a bit
:52:42. > :52:45.unconvincing. Interesting. Something of a plug. Explain how people can
:52:46. > :52:49.find out more, if they have seen things in the debate they are not
:52:50. > :52:54.sure about and check up on. Explain how they can access your excellent
:52:55. > :53:09.information and try to unravel this? You can find the live page at bbg
:53:10. > :53:12.bbc.co.uk/politics. Let's bring in some people who were at the debate
:53:13. > :53:19.tonight. Thank you very much for joining us. Francesca, who stood out
:53:20. > :53:24.for you? To me neither of them stood out that much. I felt like they were
:53:25. > :53:26.reading off a sheet no matter question you were going to skchlt
:53:27. > :53:31.they were going to say the same thing anyway. I don't believe they
:53:32. > :53:35.answered the questions that is were truly asked. There one issue you
:53:36. > :53:39.went in wanting to know about and you felt they didn't address?
:53:40. > :53:45.Immigration. I don't believe they addressed it that well. I think they
:53:46. > :53:49.kind of said what they thought the party of people wanted to know, but
:53:50. > :53:54.they didn't say the facts. You still don't know what they want... What
:53:55. > :54:00.they want... Do you feel better served, concrete answers as far as
:54:01. > :54:05.you are concerned, John? No, not better served. I was around when the
:54:06. > :54:12.referendum was for us to vote on. I voted to go in the European market
:54:13. > :54:18.in the 70s. I feel that has changed so much now that I don't feel 100%
:54:19. > :54:25.behind staying in. Although I still believe in a Common Market that is
:54:26. > :54:30.nonpolitical. I believe in the union, as regards to the commercial
:54:31. > :54:35.aspect it was very, very important for business. You believe in the
:54:36. > :54:40.jobs argument ` Too much influence on what we do. You would like to see
:54:41. > :54:44.more renegotiation? One of the things they said about the Lisbon
:54:45. > :54:47.Treaty, I really do believe that Nigel Farage was correct when he
:54:48. > :54:52.said we should have had a referendum for that because it was such a
:54:53. > :54:56.serious change. Benjamin, you asked a question. Remind us what your
:54:57. > :55:03.question was? Relating to employment. And, people being
:55:04. > :55:07.foreign and being residents. In my neighbourhood where I live, people
:55:08. > :55:11.are having problems with manual labour and being a resident ` They
:55:12. > :55:19.cannot find work? They cannot find work. When they turn to studying
:55:20. > :55:26.their diplomas and GCSE's for universities is not good enough for
:55:27. > :55:31.a day job in Sainsbury's. I'm a resident who had to turn to trade `
:55:32. > :55:36.Did either man answer your question? They both did. They basically made
:55:37. > :55:40.it clear that there will be more employment for foreigners and the
:55:41. > :55:46.residents will hopefully in the future feel a lot more comfortable
:55:47. > :55:52.within that area. That was good enough. You come out of it thinking
:55:53. > :55:59.` I could vote for that man come May 22nd Definitely. Who for? Nick, the
:56:00. > :56:05.one on the left? Nick Clegg? Yeah. You went into this on the fence, how
:56:06. > :56:12.have you come out? Well, slightly on the fence still, but more leaning
:56:13. > :56:16.towards staying in for a bit to see if some of the things that come from
:56:17. > :56:25.the inside in changing the rules and the laws to our benefit can be
:56:26. > :56:28.worked from inside. I doubt it. I wasn't too pleased with Nigel
:56:29. > :56:36.Farage's performance. It was a bit of a showpiece. Nigel Farage? Nigel
:56:37. > :56:39.Farage. To be clear who you are talking about. It was a bit of a
:56:40. > :56:45.showbusiness thing. I thought they were both playing to the audience.
:56:46. > :56:48.Both playing to the audience? Rather than the questions. I veer more
:56:49. > :56:52.towards Nick Clegg at the moment. Very interesting. I wish we could
:56:53. > :56:55.talk longer. We can't. Good to talk to you. Interesting that final
:56:56. > :56:59.thought. Thank you very much to all of you. Perhaps playing to the
:57:00. > :57:04.audience. According to the audience polling, just to remind you, Nigel
:57:05. > :57:09.Farage apparently 68% is the figuring that he has won over
:57:10. > :57:15.tonight. Nick Clegg, 27%, with 5% saying they just don't know. Let's
:57:16. > :57:20.see whether that polling pans out over the long`term. Much more after
:57:21. > :57:24.9.00pm. Stay with us for nurt analysis and more reaction. Let's
:57:25. > :57:30.pause and catch up with the weather prospects. I can see you through
:57:31. > :57:35.those revolving doors. We are really close. Now the weather for tonight,
:57:36. > :57:39.I think a little mixed. There will be rain around, a lot of cloud
:57:40. > :57:43.too,let evenings ending on a cloudy note for most of us. The weather
:57:44. > :57:48.across the south hasn't been too bad, that is the south`east,
:57:49. > :57:53.temperatures up near easterly 20 degrees. The rain will clip the
:57:54. > :57:56.south`east of England, Wales and Northern Ireland and the North East
:57:57. > :58:00.of England and Scotland will get rain over night. Misty and murky
:58:01. > :58:05.here as well. It should stay dry in the south`east. Mildest weather here
:58:06. > :58:12.around about 10 degrees. Tomorrow, across the South West, a wet start
:58:13. > :58:17.to the day, the rain will move northwards. There could be rumbles
:58:18. > :58:21.of thunder to the south`east. This is where we will have temperatures
:58:22. > :58:25.up to nearly 20 degrees with hazy sunshine. Chilly in the North East
:58:26. > :00:02.of England and east of Scotland. That is it from me.
:00:03. > :00:18.This is BBC News. I am Jane Hill at BBC Broadcasting House, where Nick
:00:19. > :00:29.Clegg and Nigel Farage have again been debating Britain's place in
:00:30. > :00:33.Europe. During heated exchanges, the UKIP leader accused the leader of
:00:34. > :00:39.the Liberal Democrats of not telling the truth. By seeing 7% of laws are
:00:40. > :00:46.made in Brussels, you are wilfully lying to the British people. If you
:00:47. > :00:54.do what Nigel Farage says and isolate Britain, it will be barely
:00:55. > :01:03.no jobs Britain. I am Norman Smith, in the spin room, Wear tomorrow's
:01:04. > :01:09.headlines and Nick Clegg's people are saying his man was not beaten
:01:10. > :01:16.all stop I'm Clive Myrie. The other main stories on the BBC N ews at
:01:17. > :01:21.Nine... There are risks to the elderly and those with breathing
:01:22. > :01:30.problems after high levels of air pollution affect parts of England.
:01:31. > :01:38.And time is running out for a 19`year`old Mauritian student due to
:01:39. > :01:48.be deported tonight, despite protests to keep her in the UK.
:01:49. > :02:06.Good evening from Broadcasting House. In the last hour, the second
:02:07. > :02:27.debate has finished between Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage. It was tasty
:02:28. > :03:13.at times, pretty argumentative. `` it was testy. Flew faster than last
:03:14. > :03:21.week. It went through a number of topics. And there was a lot of
:03:22. > :03:31.debate about foreign policy, Vladimir Putin, Russia, Ukraine.
:03:32. > :03:39.Start very much with foreign policy. All of this Off the backs as you
:03:40. > :03:43.might know of the comments that Nigel Farage made about Russia's
:03:44. > :03:47.President Putin. He has been challenged on that a loot. He was
:03:48. > :03:53.challenged again earlier in the day. This is how it came up in the debate
:03:54. > :03:57.itself. David Cameron, Nick Clegg, and, I'm afraid, Ed Miliband too,
:03:58. > :04:01.have been saying to Ukraine, why don't you join the European Union.
:04:02. > :04:07.While you are at it, why don't you join NATO too. And this is something
:04:08. > :04:11.that has been seen by Putin to be a deeply provocative act. We have
:04:12. > :04:17.given false hope to those western Ukranians. Did you see them with
:04:18. > :04:32.their EU flags and banners. They toppled a democratically`elected
:04:33. > :04:38.leader. I. . `` I have to say, listening to that it seems to me if
:04:39. > :04:44.I'm the leader of the party of in, Nigel Farage is the leader of the
:04:45. > :04:49.party of Putin. He is now seeking to justify and defend the actions of a
:04:50. > :04:53.man, Vladimir Putin, who, let's not ` Ukraine is one thing, look what
:04:54. > :04:58.the is happening in Syria. He is the only man on the planet who with one
:04:59. > :05:03.telephone call to President Assad, the most brutal dictator in the
:05:04. > :05:28.world could help to bring the participants to that awful conflict
:05:29. > :05:42.to the negotiating table. Is absolutely indefencively.
:05:43. > :05:50.It moved onto immigration. It got quite heated when Nick Clegg pulled
:05:51. > :05:58.out a poster, and old UKIP poster talking about immigration It's a
:05:59. > :06:03.picture of aen happy looking Native American much of it says, "he used
:06:04. > :06:08.to live immigration now he lives on a reservation" the suggestion being
:06:09. > :06:12.if we ignore immigration the British people will be cooped up on an
:06:13. > :06:17.reservation. We will not be cooped up on a Native American reservation,
:06:18. > :06:23.what will you say next, you are Crazy Horse or Sitting Bull. We have
:06:24. > :06:28.to have a levelled headed debate about this. I don't know about that
:06:29. > :06:32.leaflet. It's your leaflet. I don't recognise that leaflet. I will say
:06:33. > :06:36.this to you. Look! K!? All sort of things get put out. I don't
:06:37. > :06:40.recognise that leaflet. I wouldn't endorse its sentiments. It's bad
:06:41. > :06:43.news for ordinary British workers and families that we've had, over
:06:44. > :06:50.the course of the last decade, because of an excess in the labour
:06:51. > :06:56.market, not benefits, labour market, wage compression, wages have gone
:06:57. > :07:02.down 14% in real terms since 2007. Doubling of youth unemployment. Good
:07:03. > :07:06.for the rich, cheaper nannies, gardners, bad news for ordinary
:07:07. > :07:14.Britons. We need a control on immigration.
:07:15. > :07:22.One key topic immigration. Now you let us go to Norman Smith. He is
:07:23. > :07:28.gauging opinion. And that instant polling was very striking.
:07:29. > :07:34.I have moved to the bar for obvious reasons. The latest polling is very
:07:35. > :07:44.interesting. This is an ICM poll, which follows the earlier one from
:07:45. > :07:50.YouGov, showing a major win for UKIP. 69% for Nigel Farage against
:07:51. > :08:01.31% for Nick Clegg. The previous Paul was 68% for Nigel Farage, 27%
:08:02. > :08:10.for Nick Clegg. A big chunky majority for Nigel Farage. You
:08:11. > :08:15.cannot massage those figures away. When Nick Clegg let this evening, he
:08:16. > :08:26.was trying to put the best gloss on tonight's clash.
:08:27. > :08:36.Did you think blue`1`macro? `` did you think you won? It was very
:08:37. > :08:41.lively. I hope, for those people who agree with me that, whilst not
:08:42. > :08:48.perfect, it isn't brought in to remain within the European Union,
:08:49. > :08:56.and vote for the Liberal Democrats. You may have lost that, the second
:08:57. > :08:59.one in a row, is that damaging? I am making arguments not made for 20
:09:00. > :09:04.years, people like Nigel Farage have been able to make up acts and
:09:05. > :09:13.challenged for 20 years, you cannot change that in two hours. `` make up
:09:14. > :09:19.facts. I hope that in these debates that will help and it will continue
:09:20. > :09:24.until the election. David Cameron and Ed Miliband were not here. I do
:09:25. > :09:28.not even know if they watched it. David Cameron had one good excuse
:09:29. > :09:36.last time, as he was at Buckingham Palace. This time, I do not know
:09:37. > :09:38.whether he watched it. The only reaction we have had from the
:09:39. > :09:45.Conservatives has been from the defence minister. She was
:09:46. > :09:50.interviewed earlier. The majority of people want a change and Nigel
:09:51. > :09:57.Farage cannot deliver change and Nick Clegg does not want any change.
:09:58. > :10:01.The only way we can get change is with representations, we negotiating
:10:02. > :10:11.and have a referendum. That is what matters. Only the Conservatives can
:10:12. > :10:15.deliver on a referendum. Who did you find yourself cheering for? Who do
:10:16. > :10:24.you think performed well? Your coalition partner? I am more
:10:25. > :10:28.inclined to support Nick Clegg, but I do not think it was the real
:10:29. > :10:33.debate, that is making sure we really go see it our position,
:10:34. > :10:38.putting it to the British people with a referendum only we can
:10:39. > :10:42.deliver. Nick Clegg does not want that, Nigel Farage cannot deliver a
:10:43. > :10:50.referendum, nor any of the changes he wants to put forward. Shouldn't
:10:51. > :10:53.your man have been there making his argument and standing there
:10:54. > :11:00.alongside them, so you had someone to cheer for? The real debate and
:11:01. > :11:03.argument is high we make the changes we want and then high we implement
:11:04. > :11:09.that effectively through a referendum, that is what it is
:11:10. > :11:13.about, giving the British people a real choice, which can only be
:11:14. > :11:22.through a referendum, and neither of these two can deliver that, only we
:11:23. > :11:27.can. At least with Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg, we know where they
:11:28. > :11:31.stand, one once as out of the European Union, the other wants us
:11:32. > :11:38.to stay in. People are more confused with the Conservative Party
:11:39. > :11:41.position, aren't they? We want to re`negotiate with Europe and have a
:11:42. > :11:46.referendum and trust the British people to make up their minds, there
:11:47. > :11:50.will be a great debate when we have that referendum, and it will be a
:11:51. > :11:54.genuine one, but we can only have that debate with a government
:11:55. > :12:07.committed to a referendum. We are the only party committed to that.
:12:08. > :12:19.What did you think about the road about Nigel Farage's admiration for
:12:20. > :12:23.Vladimir Putin? `` row about. I am not particularly surprised that one
:12:24. > :12:27.minute UKIP say one thing, the next moment another, that is their
:12:28. > :12:32.history. One minute singly should not have any more immigration, then
:12:33. > :12:38.as king for some immigration from Syria. One minute, they are against
:12:39. > :12:52.benefit reform, the next in favour of it. They do not know whether they
:12:53. > :12:57.are asked or `` Arthur or Martha. A lot of these events you judge by
:12:58. > :13:08.impressions. One thing that struck me in the abdomen is the UKIP people
:13:09. > :13:13.look more `` looked more satisfied. Nick Clegg's team looked more
:13:14. > :13:27.defensive. Let us get some reaction from the Labour Party. Developer
:13:28. > :13:37.Stuart, I `` Gisela Stuart, what is your take? Nigel Farage seem to be
:13:38. > :13:41.more effective. Nick Clegg, when he called Nigel Farage a taxpayer
:13:42. > :13:45.funded politician, they were all playing fast and loose with figures,
:13:46. > :13:51.which you would not be able to do in any other context. But both parties
:13:52. > :13:57.emerging as winners. If it had not been for these debates, neither
:13:58. > :14:02.would get that media exposure. Do you think your man, Ed Miliband,
:14:03. > :14:09.should have taken part? I can see why he didn't and by David Cameron
:14:10. > :14:17.didn't take part. But do you think you should have? It would have been
:14:18. > :14:21.better with all four, but it is the first European election in 20 years
:14:22. > :14:26.when we talk about the subject of Europe, and it must be the start of
:14:27. > :14:33.a much wider and focused debate. The people were the winners tonight. Is
:14:34. > :14:38.there a momentum building up behind Nigel Farage? What is this a flash
:14:39. > :14:44.in the pan? Do you sense something is happening out there? Something is
:14:45. > :14:52.happening. It is an ease with the whole political establishment. We do
:14:53. > :14:57.not know whether we will have a major change in votes in the
:14:58. > :15:06.European election. `` it is an unease. We have gone slightly beyond
:15:07. > :15:13.just saying this is a problem for the Tories. It is a problem for all
:15:14. > :15:18.the political parties. Nigel Farage seem to be almost making a Labour
:15:19. > :15:23.Party appeal, talking about big business, wealthy landowners, the
:15:24. > :15:30.white working class, that was a pitch into Labour Party territory?
:15:31. > :15:35.It is and about 12% of the vote going to UKIP are Tory voters, and
:15:36. > :15:40.after that it is all of the parties. His message is so
:15:41. > :15:44.seductive, simple and clear and the other parties have to engage with it
:15:45. > :15:49.in a very factually `based weight, which at the moment they are still
:15:50. > :15:53.not doing. There was one moment when Nick Clegg, when Nigel Farage talked
:15:54. > :16:00.about Manchester, Nick Clegg said Greater Manchester, picked out a
:16:01. > :16:04.figure of 2.1 million population, but Manchester is half a million,
:16:05. > :16:13.Greater Manchester 2.7 million, so it can be fantasyland. It did not
:16:14. > :16:19.sit with Nick Clegg. Thank you. Jane, I cut have a raw deal, saying
:16:20. > :16:23.to come here and I would buy her a drink and we would interview hard,
:16:24. > :16:30.but there is no one here to buy a drink from! It is an outrage! Thank
:16:31. > :16:35.you very much. Someone should be told. A disgrace, isn't it! Thank
:16:36. > :16:39.you very much, Norman Smith, the spin bar that is not a bar. When a
:16:40. > :16:44.bar not a bar? Thank you very much. Lots of reaction on social media.
:16:45. > :16:49.All these things play out so swiftly on social media, don't they?
:16:50. > :16:53.Ann`Marie is back with us. She is back from BBC trending. She has been
:16:54. > :16:57.monitoring this. You have looked at the fist debate, now the second
:16:58. > :17:04.debate. What was out there? Was trending, what were the key issues?
:17:05. > :17:11.The hashtag Europe debate. You could see this spike of conversation just
:17:12. > :17:17.sore as the de took place. During the debate itself there were 38,000
:17:18. > :17:22.tweets using this hashtag. Well over 55,000 tweets throughout the course
:17:23. > :17:28.of today. I'm sure we will see that continue on as people discuss the
:17:29. > :17:30.subject. It was interesting. I wanted to look at the number of
:17:31. > :17:34.compensation mentions that Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg got. In the
:17:35. > :17:39.last debate, Farage got more mentions on Twitter. It's not an
:17:40. > :17:44.indicator of whether he won, it's an indicator of whether what he said
:17:45. > :17:47.got people talking online. Farage got 8,000 mentions during the
:17:48. > :17:51.debate, Clegg got 6,000. A smaller gap than the previous debate. It
:17:52. > :17:54.looked like Clegg was getting more people talking this time round.
:17:55. > :17:59.Which is interesting, I thought. Yes. Talking about him, but I guess
:18:00. > :18:03.that doesn't necessarily tell us whether it was good or bad? Exactly.
:18:04. > :18:09.By the nature of social media. A lot of the discussion and commentary
:18:10. > :18:14.online is polarised, especially with something like this where it is a
:18:15. > :18:17.debate and getting people from all ports of the spectrum and
:18:18. > :18:22.demographics. What about jolly stuff snl we made the point that lots of
:18:23. > :18:28.people discuss this seriously on Twitter and want to know what people
:18:29. > :18:31.think about migration and so on, some people have fun? Of course.
:18:32. > :18:35.There are funny pictures doing the rounds. One of the high points, you
:18:36. > :18:42.could say, on Twitter was when David Dimbleby made the remark, "Nick
:18:43. > :18:48.Farage" instead of Nigel Farage. Lots of people were tweeting about
:18:49. > :18:55.this. David Dimbleby were trending and Nick Farage trending. If you
:18:56. > :18:59.look at the global map. You can see there is a high concentration of
:19:00. > :19:03.people using the hashtag Europe debate in the UK, naturally. If you
:19:04. > :19:07.look across Europe, it's the cities in Europe, the capital cities around
:19:08. > :19:12.Europe, that are using it and parts of the US as well, which was
:19:13. > :19:15.reflective of the debate, the last debate LBC. It's interesting that
:19:16. > :19:21.the US is interested in what is happening here too. I'm struck by
:19:22. > :19:26.that. I'm quite surprised by it. I don't know, it could be a lot of
:19:27. > :19:33.ex`pats living in the States, for example? It's inner cities where
:19:34. > :19:38.people have broadband access and smartphone penetration is really
:19:39. > :19:41.high. That will have... That will be a contributing factor too. Yes, very
:19:42. > :19:47.interesting. How can people take part in a debate longer term? By
:19:48. > :19:50.definition social media is about instant gut reaction. There is a
:19:51. > :19:55.place for that. We need proper considered analysis as the days go
:19:56. > :19:59.by and proper reflection. How can people engage in that? The BBC has
:20:00. > :20:25.been covering it comprehensively on all of its social platforms. If you
:20:26. > :20:32.look at the bbc.co.uk/politics. You can have a look at the BBC Have Your
:20:33. > :20:38.Say and they can email and text in. They can share their views. We can
:20:39. > :20:46.get a sense of what our audience actually thinks. Very much for now.
:20:47. > :20:50.Lots of ways to get in touch. There will be more discussion about that
:20:51. > :20:53.tonight, I suspect Matthew and I will carry on talking about it
:20:54. > :20:57.tomorrow on BBC News as well. Before I close for this half`hour, just
:20:58. > :21:04.worth I think really reminding you of the latest polling on all of
:21:05. > :21:13.this. Two pretty swift polls, proper opinion polls carried out here
:21:14. > :21:20.tonight. The Guardian/ICM, people were asked ` who performed best?
:21:21. > :21:25.Nigel Farage well ahead, 69%, versus Nick Clegg on 31%. That is the
:21:26. > :21:30.Guardian poll. The YouGov poll which came out very quickly after the end
:21:31. > :21:48.of the debate. Similar for Nigel Farage, just one point below. 36%
:21:49. > :21:53.for Nigel Farage, 68% for Nigel Farage and 37% for Nick Clegg. A
:21:54. > :21:57.third of Liberal Democrats felt that Nigel Farage had won. Lots more
:21:58. > :22:02.analysis of all those facts and figures to come, I'm quite sure.
:22:03. > :22:06.From outside Broadcasting House I will hand you back to Clive. Jane,
:22:07. > :22:09.many thanks for that. Jane Hill there. In other news. Millions of
:22:10. > :22:12.elderly people and those with health problems have been advised to avoid
:22:13. > :22:14.heavy