:00:00. > :00:00.to bring the first edition. Now on BBC News ` Scotland's Future,
:00:00. > :00:34.Generation 2014. Hello and welcome to BBC Scotland
:00:35. > :00:37.headquarters in Glasgow. In six months time there will be a
:00:38. > :00:43.referendum on independence. The question to be asked should Scotland
:00:44. > :00:48.be an independent country. The first time, 16 and 17`year`old will get
:00:49. > :00:57.the vote. We have 50 of them here. They come from the Generation 2014
:00:58. > :01:00.project. We also have a group of young people from the BBC News
:01:01. > :01:10.School report project. They have come armed with question. The Labour
:01:11. > :01:19.MP Jim Murphy and the SNP MSP Humza Yousaf. First will hear from
:01:20. > :01:25.politicians. First to Humza Yousaf. Why should we are your weight? First
:01:26. > :01:30.of all, what a pleasure it is to talk to our future. If it is about
:01:31. > :01:36.anything, it is about your future. What is not about is how much you
:01:37. > :01:42.love Scotland or separating a way. It is not about haggis is all
:01:43. > :01:49.leading flag. This is about how we use the resource, the talent and
:01:50. > :01:53.human capital asset of this country. To make decisions for ourselves like
:01:54. > :01:58.any other normal country. Scotland has been a great innovator
:01:59. > :02:03.throughout history but even to the modern age. Let's make sure of the
:02:04. > :02:10.next 100 years, all decisions about your are made I nobody else but you.
:02:11. > :02:17.Jim Murphy, why should people vote with you? This will be your first
:02:18. > :02:20.ever vote and it will be the most important value ever cast. This
:02:21. > :02:28.referendum is more significant than any election that has taken place.
:02:29. > :02:32.For many on here, it will be the first time you have been involved in
:02:33. > :02:36.a debate such as this. I hope we can set a different tone for some
:02:37. > :02:39.debates that have taken place. I have watched on television and it
:02:40. > :02:44.seems to be a contest of who can shout the loudest. It is about
:02:45. > :02:49.argument and ideas. It is about how we, together, build a Scotland with
:02:50. > :02:55.more jobs and more prosperity. How we look after the most vulnerable.
:02:56. > :03:00.In Scotland, it never matters where you are bored. Whether you are born
:03:01. > :03:08.in a housing scheme or if you are born into relative prosperity. And
:03:09. > :03:12.whether the power of the United Kingdom can help shape and influence
:03:13. > :03:16.that world. How we can protect the environment from the dangers of home
:03:17. > :03:21.changed and how we can use our in front influence to look after some
:03:22. > :03:25.of the poorer nations. You are the first generation to communicate
:03:26. > :03:33.instantly with the use of oral sorts of devices. I do not think we should
:03:34. > :03:39.build a border between ourselves and the rest of the UK. Let's not change
:03:40. > :03:48.the United Kingdom, let's not break it and leave it. Around the applause
:03:49. > :03:54.for our two politicians. You have our first question. What will our
:03:55. > :04:04.relationship we like with the rest of the UK if we go independent? It
:04:05. > :04:09.took Jim Murphy exactly 30 seconds to say we will be leading the rest
:04:10. > :04:13.of the UK. That is fear mongering and scaremongering. We are not
:04:14. > :04:20.looking to leave or take a chainsaw to the border. And never be a part
:04:21. > :04:26.of the UK. We have 300 years of shared history. That social union is
:04:27. > :04:33.extraordinarily strong. My wife was born in England. All those jokes
:04:34. > :04:44.about your father`in`law, I quite like him and he was born in
:04:45. > :04:54.Scunthorpe. Why should that have any effect?
:04:55. > :04:59.Family relationships and bonds are not created or divided depending on
:05:00. > :05:06.when you make political decisions. My greatest friends and allies are
:05:07. > :05:10.the rest of the United Kingdom. But it is AI don't enjoy the rivalry on
:05:11. > :05:15.the football field. Not so much the rugby field at the moment! That
:05:16. > :05:20.rivalry will always exist but that friendship is much deeper. Do we
:05:21. > :05:26.want to make decisions for ourselves and our own interest. It is not
:05:27. > :05:30.about that. It is not about putting up borders and barriers. It is about
:05:31. > :05:34.making decisions for ourselves. They will be our best of friends and
:05:35. > :05:41.close allies. Those ones of friendship will continue. Do you buy
:05:42. > :05:47.that? I think it is a good point that you make there is a strong bond
:05:48. > :05:54.but it would be good to see the other side of things as well. Who
:05:55. > :05:58.buys what he does that? I agree. If you look at Scandinavia, the
:05:59. > :06:01.relationship that those countries have is so close. I don't see why
:06:02. > :06:05.there is a reason that Scotland should not have that same kind of
:06:06. > :06:11.relationship with the rest of the country's in the UK. Jim Murphy. I
:06:12. > :06:15.think we would have to make it work, upwardly? Eye and going to
:06:16. > :06:20.vote to remain in the United Kingdom. If the rest of the United
:06:21. > :06:25.Kingdom became a foreign country to Scotland, we would make it work. My
:06:26. > :06:35.argument is that we should not have to. Look at how in common with the
:06:36. > :06:42.people in these areas. Why break up that family of nations. Impact on
:06:43. > :06:47.things like currency. What currency would you have in your purse or your
:06:48. > :06:53.pocket is that Wallaby impact on things the BBC have? Of course we
:06:54. > :06:58.could make it work. We are remarkable people in a great country
:06:59. > :07:01.and we would make it work but I don't think we should take that
:07:02. > :07:07.risk. I do believe we are better together. Who is agreeing with what
:07:08. > :07:11.Humza Yousaf is saying? Let me get you one. I think it is interesting
:07:12. > :07:18.that the Better Together campaign says we can't have a pound. It is
:07:19. > :07:26.not a good asset but there is an asset. To take the debt and not the
:07:27. > :07:34.pound, that is not fair. Is debt and asset? There is a liability. Humza
:07:35. > :07:38.Yousaf is saying if we go independent we can get rid of the
:07:39. > :07:49.debt and help people in poverty. How will we pay that off? Who agrees
:07:50. > :07:54.with Humza Yousaf? In response to SNP who referred to recent
:07:55. > :07:58.statistics showing in the of a "yes" vote Scotland would be the 14th
:07:59. > :08:03.richest country in the world in terms of GDP. How does Mr Murphy
:08:04. > :08:07.responds the accusation that the Better Together campaign does not
:08:08. > :08:11.want to leave because it's a "yes" vote did happen, the Westminster
:08:12. > :08:20.government would have less money. Who wants to argue with Andrew? I
:08:21. > :08:28.know you are visually impaired. I was just wondering if Scotland is
:08:29. > :08:35.independent and we can't keep the pound, you are saying that our money
:08:36. > :08:40.we spend on things we want, I and not sure anybody wanted the money to
:08:41. > :08:48.be spent on the high`speed railway lines. That makes everybody is
:08:49. > :08:52.Hearts thing. You cannot deny it, a politician is a politician, whether
:08:53. > :08:56.they are English, French or Japanese. They will still make the
:08:57. > :08:59.same mistakes were stopped as because we are independent, Scottish
:09:00. > :09:15.politicians would make better decisions. Who want to take
:09:16. > :09:26.responsibility for the trams? Let's get you arguing with each other. My
:09:27. > :09:30.question is why should we stay because we don't know what will be
:09:31. > :09:36.cut next. Where we still have the same quality of energy service and
:09:37. > :09:40.electricity fees? Even if we stay together, we do not know what
:09:41. > :09:51.services we have so why should we stay? I think it is interesting that
:09:52. > :09:59.Humza Yousaf is saying look at the facts and figures. The public the ``
:10:00. > :10:05.big to a different story. They said revenue would go up and deficit
:10:06. > :10:12.would be decreasing. In actual fact, revenue is going down and the debt
:10:13. > :10:16.is increasing. I think it is a strange claim to make you look at
:10:17. > :10:20.the facts and figures when we are seeing no parity in these figures.
:10:21. > :10:28.The people are indeed looking at. Let me ask you, who he is confused
:10:29. > :10:32.by the financial message you get all the time. The numbers? Who is
:10:33. > :10:37.confused? That is interesting. Nobody really understands the
:10:38. > :10:40.numbers. You are about to make a comment? You are talking about
:10:41. > :10:45.working and jobs earlier. Scotland is already in a bad place and
:10:46. > :10:50.employment wise. What would happen on the unemployment front if we went
:10:51. > :10:54.independent? Let me put two questions to both of you. One is how
:10:55. > :10:59.do we get more people in work was mapped the second one is if at the
:11:00. > :11:08.moment we are overspending by 12 billion every year, how do you
:11:09. > :11:14.change that? Jim Murphy. We have got to continue to try and find new ways
:11:15. > :11:19.to make things. Biotechnology or these high end engineering
:11:20. > :11:24.innovations that we have celebrated throughout our history. We have to
:11:25. > :11:31.do more of that stop utterly what we can't do and this is something Humza
:11:32. > :11:35.Yousaf will agree with. We cannot be `` complete with some of the
:11:36. > :11:42.developing economies. It does not have success with us. We cannot
:11:43. > :11:45.mass`produce load cost items. When I look at the facts and figures,
:11:46. > :11:54.economic and using. Think about it yourself, we have 24 billion barrels
:11:55. > :11:58.of oil. We have 25% of Europe's wind energy potential based here in
:11:59. > :12:04.Scotland. We have got from days gone by, a nation of innovators and
:12:05. > :12:10.inventors. Even today, the first living organism was cloned here in
:12:11. > :12:15.Scotland. We invented and that although five. We have got all these
:12:16. > :12:25.great thing is that we agree on. Scotland could survive. The question
:12:26. > :12:30.is this: we are in Glasgow but across other parts of Scotland, we
:12:31. > :12:35.asking some of the worst deprivation and poverty we have seen for a
:12:36. > :12:42.generation. Whether it is people at food banks, can you believe it? Is
:12:43. > :12:47.the 21st century in Scotland. We are having to give food to people here.
:12:48. > :12:52.You have hundreds and thousands of children in poverty. Disabled people
:12:53. > :12:57.are being threatened with the age tax. How do we deal with that? We
:12:58. > :13:02.are in a position to pay off the debt. But then money on what is
:13:03. > :13:10.important to us. Let's create a fairer society. Our next question is
:13:11. > :13:15.to do with a question from a BBC School report. Let me come to you.
:13:16. > :13:21.Your question is very much about the future. We make if we become an
:13:22. > :13:32.independent country, or happen to university tuition fees? Is that
:13:33. > :13:42.important? Hands up. Everybody is nodding pulled up.
:13:43. > :13:54.We got rid of the back door or Division 3. The first minister said
:13:55. > :14:02.without a single shadow of doubt that before we bring back tuition
:14:03. > :14:09.fees... So long as we are in power they will never be tuition fees.
:14:10. > :14:13.Politics, if it is about one thing, it is about priorities. Where you
:14:14. > :14:20.choose to spend your money. Whether you choose to spend it? That is why
:14:21. > :14:24.we criticise the UK government for spending on nuclear weapons. Instead
:14:25. > :14:30.of that, spending on education. We have a commitment and absolutely,
:14:31. > :14:36.education would continue to be free. The difficulty I have with this
:14:37. > :14:41.whole argument and debate, you are quite right to ask me for clarity.
:14:42. > :14:46.But, you must also asked the opposition, if you vote no, what
:14:47. > :14:50.will happen? So far we have managed to hear something about the income
:14:51. > :14:58.tax will be different but nothing on education. Jim Murphy voted to
:14:59. > :15:05.increase the tuition fee to bring a half thousand. He increased tuition
:15:06. > :15:09.fees I would be interesting to know because his argument is, everything
:15:10. > :15:19.will be OK because Labour will get back in power. Would you vote to
:15:20. > :15:24.bring back tuition fees? My argument today is not that you vote no and
:15:25. > :15:30.then everything will be perfect. That is the Yes campaign argument.
:15:31. > :15:35.There are tough times ahead and we should not pretend otherwise. The
:15:36. > :15:38.run off a lot of people still struggling to make ends meet and
:15:39. > :15:45.many of them will suffer the worst effects of independence. On tuition,
:15:46. > :15:54.the labour party fought the last campaign on tuition fees.
:15:55. > :16:00.(CROSSTALK) The question is how you can afford
:16:01. > :16:04.tuition. No one country with all of the consequences of breaking up, the
:16:05. > :16:08.cost of embassies and so on, how will you afford to have all of the
:16:09. > :16:21.things that you are being promised and the currency gets to be decided?
:16:22. > :16:27.The SNP have to be more open about what they can afford rather than
:16:28. > :16:30.just promising everything. You're making a promise and you are saying
:16:31. > :16:34.that there will be no tuition fees, but what I am asking is where are
:16:35. > :16:40.your facts and figures to prove that you can paper this? If we are going
:16:41. > :16:44.to take the debt with us, we will have to pay for a lot more and we
:16:45. > :16:57.were to pay for a lot more stuff on our own. Well the money come from?
:16:58. > :17:03.Who would support Humza here? He is absolutely right. The promise that
:17:04. > :17:07.we will have free tuition, I believe that. I do not think that if we go
:17:08. > :17:15.independent that will make a massive difference to the opinion of
:17:16. > :17:23.tuition. Who would like to argue? He is asking how would we afford it,
:17:24. > :17:35.but surely ?350 billion for Trident, we should be able to say that and
:17:36. > :17:39.afford tuition. Where is Sabena? How will immigrants be treated
:17:40. > :17:43.differently in independent Scotland? Reflect, how would immigrants be
:17:44. > :17:51.treated differently in independent country? It is part of your campaign
:17:52. > :18:00.is you need more immigrants to pay taxes. Would there be a difference,
:18:01. > :18:04.Jim Murphy? Regardless of whether we would be an independent country or
:18:05. > :18:12.not, I would like to think that we have an enlightened attitude towards
:18:13. > :18:16.immigrants. I am a Murphy, I came from Ireland `` my family came from
:18:17. > :18:19.Ireland. If Scotland was independent, we would need more
:18:20. > :18:25.immigrants because we have an ageing population. Immigrants make our
:18:26. > :18:29.country more prosperous and more interesting, more diverse. The
:18:30. > :18:34.Polish immigrants who have come in recent years have strengthened our
:18:35. > :18:39.economy in really important ways. Humza, do we have consensus here? On
:18:40. > :18:45.the positivity that immigrants bring, of course. I am the son of
:18:46. > :18:50.immigrants as well. Where I differ from Jim Murphy is that, of course
:18:51. > :18:54.we need immigration because of our ageing population, but the point is
:18:55. > :18:59.that the UK government 's immigration policy is being driven
:19:00. > :19:06.by UKIP. We are seeing it. I was disgusted to see, just a mile down
:19:07. > :19:14.from here, posters that say Ago backcombed. We have vans driving
:19:15. > :19:18.around London scene Go Home. This is one of the worst racist insults
:19:19. > :19:24.thrown at me. I do not have another home, this is my home. That slogan
:19:25. > :19:27.is disgusting. We need control of our immigration system so that when
:19:28. > :19:33.we have skills gaps, engineers for example, we can use the immigration
:19:34. > :19:36.policy and leave us to attract more skilled immigrants. If we leave it
:19:37. > :19:39.to the UK government, the borders are being closed, we are told that
:19:40. > :19:44.which not want immigrants and that they are not welcome. That is not a
:19:45. > :19:48.good system, Scotland is a welcoming country and we should have control
:19:49. > :19:53.of our immigration system. Who wants to make a comment on this? You think
:19:54. > :19:59.immigration is good or bad? Do indeed more people? Immigration is
:20:00. > :20:05.very good. We need more people coming, and my experience is that
:20:06. > :20:11.people are being welcomed well so immigration is good. Right back who
:20:12. > :20:16.wants to make a comment? You made the comment that three miles down
:20:17. > :20:23.the river from here there are food banks, but what is your thought on
:20:24. > :20:25.if Scotland is not have enough food to defeat it in population, why
:20:26. > :20:31.should we be encouraging other people from other countries to come?
:20:32. > :20:37.The theory is that they would pay tax and tax would go into the
:20:38. > :20:46.government. You are a very quiet here. What about you? I think
:20:47. > :20:52.immigration is a great idea. It makes the country more diverse
:20:53. > :20:58.place. People will pay tax and they can paper their own food and also do
:20:59. > :21:06.jobs that people do not want to do here. It is a great example of
:21:07. > :21:11.immigration. There are jobs here but we do not seem to want to do them.
:21:12. > :21:26.Let's move on. A last question is from greater. Where is he? ``
:21:27. > :21:29.Gregor. We have been told that Scotland would like to retain
:21:30. > :21:31.membership of NATO. How does this square up with the other goal of
:21:32. > :21:44.removing the nuclear deterrent from Scottish soil? Another one for you
:21:45. > :21:54.Humza. A good question. All you have to do is look at NATO 's membership.
:21:55. > :22:01.25 of the 20th of this `` the 20 member countries do not have nuclear
:22:02. > :22:05.weapons. If you look at the Charter of NATO, the strategic concept aims,
:22:06. > :22:10.one of the strategic concept is to have a nuclear free world. The
:22:11. > :22:15.actual quote is` create the conditions for a nuclear free world.
:22:16. > :22:20.What about a sign that the day we vote for independence was Scotland,
:22:21. > :22:23.one of the first things we do in our Constitution is sad that in Scotland
:22:24. > :22:29.we will not have nuclear weapons. I would rather have a future in a
:22:30. > :22:36.peaceful world opposed to nuclear weapons. 60 to 80% of all people
:22:37. > :22:40.polled in Scotland are against having nuclear weapons here. And yet
:22:41. > :22:47.somehow we have them housed 20 miles from Glasgow. That is incredible.
:22:48. > :22:49.Let's not spend money on weapons of mass destruction, let's spend money
:22:50. > :22:56.on fighting poverty of our people here in Scotland.
:22:57. > :23:03.(APPLAUSE) Would we not all like to have a
:23:04. > :23:16.nuclear free world? But how do we get rid of them? We have enormous of
:23:17. > :23:20.nuclear weapons, in Russia, China, the US, the question is how do we do
:23:21. > :23:25.that? In uncertain world where Russia, North Korea and others have
:23:26. > :23:29.them, surely the judgement is that we should do it together. Those get
:23:30. > :23:34.rid of them together through talks and negotiations. I do not want to
:23:35. > :23:37.get to a point where the UK disarms unilaterally while all of the others
:23:38. > :23:45.carry on regardless. We lose our influence than. If we want a nuclear
:23:46. > :23:49.deterrent, we have to do it in a way that reduces costs. But the idea
:23:50. > :23:57.that you stay member of NATO, which is a nuclear organisation, it is
:23:58. > :24:02.written in the Constitution of NATO that the US nuclear weapons will
:24:03. > :24:04.defend Europe, the fact that you would stay within that and have
:24:05. > :24:09.nuclear weapons in the north of England does not make Scotland
:24:10. > :24:16.safer. It is not make the world safer. When it comes to costs, fur
:24:17. > :24:22.Yes campaign have spent the nuclear weapons money on 20 different
:24:23. > :24:26.things. It is an example of, what is the issue you are most worried
:24:27. > :24:30.about? Don't worry, we will give up our nuclear weapons and spend the
:24:31. > :24:34.money on exactly what you want. Let's get rid of nuclear weapons,
:24:35. > :24:38.let's do it together, let's spend that money to help create a fair and
:24:39. > :24:43.more just society. But let's not try to hoodwink the people that it is
:24:44. > :24:47.easy on NATO, it is easy on the EU, it is easy to join all of these
:24:48. > :25:00.organisations, it is another example they have not done their homework.
:25:01. > :25:04.You have to read the white paper to support the Yes campaign. Your
:25:05. > :25:13.campaign is a shopping list, I wish list without funding.
:25:14. > :25:19.(CROSSTALK) Will stick to our audience. How do
:25:20. > :25:24.you address the massive cost of nuclear weapons, even using those
:25:25. > :25:28.figures, it is not even address the ?12 billion spending gap that he has
:25:29. > :25:41.a massive debt? Who is persuaded tonight by Humza? Less than half.
:25:42. > :25:45.Who has been persuaded by Jim? That is about half. Nobody has a
:25:46. > :25:52.majority. Who believes that there should be nuclear free Scotland? Not
:25:53. > :25:57.everybody. Who believes it should be free tuition for everybody?
:25:58. > :25:59.Everybody. Thank you very much, a massive round of applause to our two
:26:00. > :26:06.guests. (APPLAUSE)
:26:07. > :26:44.That is it. From Humza and Jim and me, goodbye.
:26:45. > :26:48.Our weekend weather brings struggling temperatures both during