:00:11. > :00:16.it? Tonight, live from the BBC's Broadcasting House in London, Nick
:00:17. > :00:38.Clegg and Nigel Farage set out their arguments for and against.
:00:39. > :00:43.APPLAUSE Welcome to the BBC's Radio Theatre
:00:44. > :00:46.for tonight's live debate on Britain's membership of the European
:00:47. > :00:50.Union. Between the Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the Liberal
:00:51. > :00:53.Democrats, Nick Clegg, and Nigel Farage, leader of the UK
:00:54. > :00:57.Independence Party. The rules for this debate are fairly simple. Each
:00:58. > :01:00.will make a one minute opening statement. They have one minute to
:01:01. > :01:05.start off the debate on every topic we cover. At the end of the hour
:01:06. > :01:09.another minute each to summer rise their position. Questions are going
:01:10. > :01:18.to come from our audience, who have been chosen to represent both sides
:01:19. > :01:20.of the case, and un uns as well. Neither side has seen the questions
:01:21. > :01:36.in advance. Bbc.co.uk/politics.
:01:37. > :01:41.Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg drew straws to decide who should start.
:01:42. > :01:45.Nigel Farage drew the short or the long straw, depending on he view, I
:01:46. > :01:50.don't know which. Mr Farage. Thank you. It is 40 years since the BBC
:01:51. > :01:54.debated this great question. The one thing which has remained the same of
:01:55. > :01:58.course is David Dimbleby. Well, almost. In those days we were asked
:01:59. > :02:02.to stay part of a Common Market. It was all about trade, if you
:02:03. > :02:06.remember. Well, it wasn't true. We find ourselves today part of a
:02:07. > :02:10.political union. We find most of our laws being made somewhere else. We
:02:11. > :02:14.find it is all rather expensive, and we have open-door immigration. If
:02:15. > :02:20.you put to a referendum today, would we join that union? Overwhelmingly
:02:21. > :02:24.we would say no. There is a clear, settled majority of opinion in this
:02:25. > :02:28.country which says we are not anti-European. We want to trade with
:02:29. > :02:32.Europe, get on with Europe, but we don't want a part of political
:02:33. > :02:37.union. There is an obstacle though, and it is here tonight in the form
:02:38. > :02:41.of Nick Clegg, the career political class and their friends this big
:02:42. > :02:47.business. They want us to keep this status quo. I want Britain to get up
:02:48. > :02:53.off its knees. Let's govern ourselves again, stand tall and
:02:54. > :02:56.trade with the world. APPLAUSE Nick Clegg? Tonight I'm
:02:57. > :03:01.going to ask you to remember just one thing - if it sounds too good to
:03:02. > :03:05.be true, then it probably is. You've just heard it from national, you
:03:06. > :03:08.will hear it from him all evening. He will say we can quit the European
:03:09. > :03:14.Union, we can isolate ourselves in the world and still protect jobs,
:03:15. > :03:18.protect trade, still punch point of view our weight. That we can have
:03:19. > :03:23.all the good things of being in Europe without actually being in
:03:24. > :03:27.Europe. It is a dangerous con. Because the modern world has
:03:28. > :03:30.changed. Our economies are intertwined with each other. We have
:03:31. > :03:34.to work with other countries to protect jobs, to protect trade, to
:03:35. > :03:38.make sure that Britain is richer, stronger and safer. And for us as a
:03:39. > :03:43.country to thrive and prosper we should do what we do at our best,
:03:44. > :03:47.not walk away, but to work with others and lead. Because in an
:03:48. > :03:56.uncertain world, there is strength in numbers. That is why we should
:03:57. > :04:01.remain in the European Union. APPLAUSE Right, let's go to our
:04:02. > :04:06.first question, which comes from Hannah Lippett. For many, staying or
:04:07. > :04:12.loving the EU is a question of personal principle. What principles
:04:13. > :04:18.do you base your viewpoints on? Nick Clegg? What's best for Britain,
:04:19. > :04:23.quite simply. In this modern world where there are so many things that
:04:24. > :04:31.we can't do on our own, you can't deal with climate change on your
:04:32. > :04:36.own, or go after criminals cross-borders o or go ar terrorism.
:04:37. > :04:40.All of that means that we get more out of the world by working together
:04:41. > :04:44.with other countries. If you do what Nigel Farage recommends and you
:04:45. > :04:49.isolate Britain, Billy No-Mates Britain, it would be worse, a Billy
:04:50. > :04:53.no jobs Britain, a Billy no influence Britain. Working together
:04:54. > :04:59.with others isn't a bad thing. It strengthens us. It doesn't weaken
:05:00. > :05:04.us. Nigel Farage? Hannah, I spent 20 years in business, I'm not a career
:05:05. > :05:09.politician. I got involved in this because I realised with a succession
:05:10. > :05:13.of treaties we were signing up to we were giving away our birth right.
:05:14. > :05:18.The ability to govern ourselves. I believe the best people to govern
:05:19. > :05:25.Britain are the British people themselves. Democracy matters.
:05:26. > :05:30.Generationings before pus fought and died to defend it. I don't want to
:05:31. > :05:34.be isolated, Nick, far from it. I want us to trade with Europe and
:05:35. > :05:37.co-operate with Europe. There is nowhere else in the world where you
:05:38. > :05:41.have to be in political union to be in business with each other. I want
:05:42. > :05:46.a modern business approach but one that's based on patriotic values.
:05:47. > :05:50.Let's be an independent United Kingdom. And then I want the rest of
:05:51. > :05:56.Europe to free themselves from the European Union too.
:05:57. > :06:00.APPLAUSE OK... He says this is too good to be true. It is not. If you
:06:01. > :06:06.think about it, the only countries in the European time zone, Ukraine
:06:07. > :06:10.and Belarus, are the only ones without free trade. When we joined
:06:11. > :06:15.the Common Market we were living in a world of high manufacturing
:06:16. > :06:18.tariffs. That's disappeared with globalisation and we find ourselves
:06:19. > :06:26.incapable of making our own trade deals with the emerging economies of
:06:27. > :06:30.the world. Trade with Europe. Don't forget they sell suss more than we
:06:31. > :06:36.sell to them. But it was about the principles not the practicalities.
:06:37. > :06:39.The values are, how do you in a modern world, where there are so
:06:40. > :06:43.many threats, challenges and, yes, opportunities, in the modern world,
:06:44. > :06:46.how do you make sure that we keep ourselves safe, that we keep
:06:47. > :06:50.ourselves strong, that we have jobs in this country? If you don't want
:06:51. > :06:56.to believe me or even Nigel Farage, listen to the people today. Who
:06:57. > :06:59.employ 700,000 of our fellow citizens in the burgeoning British
:07:00. > :07:04.car industry. They couldn't have been clearer. 92% of them said it
:07:05. > :07:09.would be crazy to leave the European Union, because by the way these are
:07:10. > :07:16.the car manufacturers Nigel Farage last week said produce poor cars. We
:07:17. > :07:22.produce pretty cars and we export to the European Union. He said more
:07:23. > :07:26.would be unemployed. If you want perhaps the most important value of
:07:27. > :07:30.all, it is keeping people in work, giving people pay packets, hard cash
:07:31. > :07:36.in their pockets so they can look after themselves and their own
:07:37. > :07:40.families. Nick, that KPMG report, what you should have done is read
:07:41. > :07:45.the small print. I know you are keen on that. It said that 62% of the
:07:46. > :07:50.people that were surveyed in that British car manufacturing interview
:07:51. > :07:54.want serious reform within the European Union if they are going to
:07:55. > :07:58.stay as members. So, far from the top line being true, two thirds of
:07:59. > :08:01.them are saying unless we get reform, the time has come to leave
:08:02. > :08:05.the European Union. How do you reform something if you walk away
:08:06. > :08:10.from it? Time and again national has had the opportunity, as have other
:08:11. > :08:13.British MEPs to stand up for Britain, to vote for a cut in the
:08:14. > :08:17.Budget. Tomorrow there is a vote in the European Parliament, am not sure
:08:18. > :08:20.if Nigel Farage will vote for it, which will eliminate all the roaming
:08:21. > :08:25.charges that we all face when we go on holiday. Just imagine, no more of
:08:26. > :08:29.those extortion ate roaming charms when you go on holiday -- charges
:08:30. > :08:33.when you go on holiday. That is something we could do in Europe but
:08:34. > :08:37.time and again when he has the opportunity to do it, he doesn't. If
:08:38. > :08:42.you want to reform something you have to lead within it. Let's not
:08:43. > :08:47.get bogged down in the detail of 62% here and roaming. I'm sure you will
:08:48. > :08:51.have the chance to bog yourself down in detail later. I want this
:08:52. > :08:59.question from Charles Hudson. How can Britain face up to international
:09:00. > :09:05.challenges like Russian intervention in Crimea without being a member of
:09:06. > :09:09.the European Union? Nigel Farage? By not becoming a political union with
:09:10. > :09:15.an expansionist foreign policy, with an aim to myth rises a quickly as
:09:16. > :09:19.they can. Indeed Baroness Cathy Ashton is pushing hard for a
:09:20. > :09:22.European Air Force and series of drones. If you look at what's
:09:23. > :09:27.happened with the Ukraine, we have had a message sent out for ten
:09:28. > :09:31.years, not just the EU. Indeed David Cameron, Nick Clegg and I'm afraid
:09:32. > :09:35.Ed Miliband too have all been saying to the Ukraine, why don't you join
:09:36. > :09:40.the European Union? While you are at it, why don't you join NATO too? And
:09:41. > :09:45.this is something that has been seen by Putin to be a deeply provocative
:09:46. > :09:50.act. We've given false hope to those western Ukrainians. Did you see them
:09:51. > :09:54.with their EU flags and banners? They toppled a democratically
:09:55. > :09:58.elected leader. Yes I know Ukraine's corrupt. I know it wasn't perfect
:09:59. > :10:04.but they toppled a leader. I don't want to be part of an emerging
:10:05. > :10:08.expansionist EU foreign policy. I think its will be a danger to peace.
:10:09. > :10:12.APPLAUSE Nick Clegg Listening to that it seems to me if I'm the
:10:13. > :10:17.leader of the party of in, national is the leader of the party of Putin.
:10:18. > :10:21.It is extraordinary his loathing of the European Union is so all
:10:22. > :10:26.consuming that he is seeking to justify and defend the actions of a
:10:27. > :10:33.man, Vladimir Putin. Let 's not... Ukraine is one thing. In Syria, he
:10:34. > :10:37.is the only on the planet who with one telephone call to President
:10:38. > :10:41.Assad, the most brutal dictator in the world, can bring the
:10:42. > :10:45.participants of that awful conflict to the negotiating table. There are
:10:46. > :10:51.200 people dying in Syria, mowed down in Syria, killed in Syria every
:10:52. > :10:57.day and Nigel Farage says he admires the way that Vladimir Putin has
:10:58. > :11:01.played. As if it is a game, the terrible humanitarian catastrophe in
:11:02. > :11:05.Syria. He admires how Vladimir Putin has behaved there. There is why I
:11:06. > :11:10.think Nigel Farage's position is indefensible. Nick, you as Deputy
:11:11. > :11:13.Prime Minister were happy to go and bomb Libya. You did that and
:11:14. > :11:17.three-and-a-half years on the situation in Libya is worse than it
:11:18. > :11:20.was. APPLAUSE You were absolutely
:11:21. > :11:26.hellbent on getting involved militarily in the war in Syria. I
:11:27. > :11:31.personally am delighted we didn't go to war in Syria and we are not going
:11:32. > :11:35.to get involved, I hope, in military conflict in the Ukraine. The British
:11:36. > :11:40.people have had enough of endless foreign military interventions. The
:11:41. > :11:43.situation in Ukraine, Syria, Libya. These aren't simple plaque and white
:11:44. > :11:46.issues. Just to assume if you support the rebels you are
:11:47. > :11:51.supporting the good guys, that flies in the face of history and we should
:11:52. > :11:56.not be intervening. I don't admire Putin. What I said he had outwitted
:11:57. > :12:00.and outclassed you all on Syria. I also said I didn't like him as a
:12:01. > :12:08.human being and I wouldn't want to live in Russia. Let's not meddle...
:12:09. > :12:14.You did actually say you admire him. The question was which current world
:12:15. > :12:19.leader due admire? As an operator I would say Putin. I went on to say as
:12:20. > :12:24.a human being and imprisoning of journalists... Can I address Nick
:12:25. > :12:28.Clegg's point about Putin could have made one telephone call to Assad and
:12:29. > :12:32.it would have stopped? Putin had not pointed out that the use of sarin
:12:33. > :12:39.gas had not necessarily come from the Assad regime. If he hadn't done,
:12:40. > :12:46.that I did backbench rebels wouldn't have stopped us... You wanted us to
:12:47. > :12:50.go to war again. I'm pleased your backbenchers voted against you. I
:12:51. > :12:55.don't like the man but he contributed to that debate.
:12:56. > :13:02.President Assad denied that defence existed. It transpires he had the
:13:03. > :13:06.largest stockpile of these am bombable that weapons on the planet.
:13:07. > :13:10.He said about Putin, the way he played the whole Syria thing,
:13:11. > :13:14.brilliant. As if it is a game. This isn't some sort of pub bar
:13:15. > :13:18.discussion. This is a serious issue about how we stop the slaughter, the
:13:19. > :13:22.displacement of millions people, women and children being sexually
:13:23. > :13:27.abused. Terrible violence on an unimaginable scale. All that Nigel
:13:28. > :13:31.Farage can say, all he can say is he has played it brilliantly. This is
:13:32. > :13:35.an issue where quite rightly we in Britain, because we see this
:13:36. > :13:38.devastating humanitarian crisis on our television screens, we want to
:13:39. > :13:41.work with others to do something about it. Nigel Farage doesn't want
:13:42. > :13:45.to work with the Americans, with the rest of Europe. He only wants to
:13:46. > :13:50.side with Vladimir Putin, who is the only man with one telephone call who
:13:51. > :13:54.could bring this bloody conflict to an end. Nick Clegg, can you come
:13:55. > :13:58.back to the question that Charles asked. In what sense do we have
:13:59. > :14:02.political weight from being part of the European Union and to what
:14:03. > :14:09.success in the Ukraine or Syria due point that justifies it? We are part
:14:10. > :14:14.in the European Union of what is the world's largest economy. 500 million
:14:15. > :14:20.people, shoppers, who could buy our goods and services. They don't only
:14:21. > :14:23.buy our goods and services. We export 50% of the things we produce
:14:24. > :14:28.to the European Union. They only export 8% to us. Crucially they buy
:14:29. > :14:33.and sell as an economic superpower in this part of the world Ukraine,
:14:34. > :14:39.from Russia, from the Middle East, from other parts of many countries
:14:40. > :14:43.in our next of the woods. So we have huge economic clout, which of course
:14:44. > :14:47.Vladimir Putin, which of course people in the Middle East will
:14:48. > :14:50.listen to. We don't have that if we were to isolate ourselves and cut
:14:51. > :14:52.ourselves off from our own European neighbours.
:14:53. > :15:00.APPLAUSE The whole point of this debate is,
:15:01. > :15:08.40 years ago it was a Common Market. Now, it is a European Union, they
:15:09. > :15:12.want an air force, a Navy, and your senior, one of your own senior MEPs
:15:13. > :15:16.wanted missile strikes to be launched against Syria until you
:15:17. > :15:20.were beaten in the House of Commons. This country, Nick, has had enough
:15:21. > :15:24.of getting involved in endless foreign wars. These are dangerous...
:15:25. > :15:28.Whether it is you or anybody else... These are... Hang on. There is no
:15:29. > :15:34.evidence that our military intervention in these countries is
:15:35. > :15:38.making life better. That's not the question. We bombed Libya and it is
:15:39. > :15:44.worse than it was then. The answer to Charles' question - I don't want
:15:45. > :15:48.to be part of a Europe European foreign policy. This is a dangerous
:15:49. > :15:53.fantasy. The idea that there is going to be a European Air force,
:15:54. > :16:00.Army, it is not true. Oh dear. The problem with Nigel Farage is, they
:16:01. > :16:04.swing... What can you do? The moon landing was a fake, that Barack
:16:05. > :16:09.Obama isn't American, that Elvis isn't dead, I wouldn't be surprised
:16:10. > :16:14.if he didn't tell us that! He claimed last week that 485 million
:16:15. > :16:17.people were going to vacate the whole of the rest of the European
:16:18. > :16:21.continent and turn up in Britain leaving no human habitation left to
:16:22. > :16:24.the rest of Europe. It is as silly as me saying that five million
:16:25. > :16:30.people living in Scotland might all move to Orpington next Tuesday. It
:16:31. > :16:36.isn't going to happen. When are you going to start confronting a few
:16:37. > :16:39.simple truths and stop twisting the facts? You are saying I said 485
:16:40. > :16:44.million people would come to Britain. I didn't. I said they were
:16:45. > :16:48.able to. You came up with the most twisted trade figure and last week
:16:49. > :16:52.you tried to tell the British people that 7% of our national laws emanate
:16:53. > :16:55.in the European Union. That is true. I thought you believed in the
:16:56. > :17:00.European project. We know the whole point of the constitution, which you
:17:01. > :17:04.supported, was to make the European Union an economic and a military
:17:05. > :17:10.superpower. Now, you deny the fact they are trying to build a European
:17:11. > :17:17.Air force. It is about time... It is a dangerous fantasy. You keep using
:17:18. > :17:21.this word "fantasy". I want to explain the truth and the reality
:17:22. > :17:27.rather than this fantasy world... Oh, dear, dear, dear. Saying that I
:17:28. > :17:32.only said 485 million people were entitled to move here is like me
:17:33. > :17:36.saying five million Scottish people... We have to move on. Can I
:17:37. > :17:41.ask you one point? I want to clarify what you said, if that is the right
:17:42. > :17:46.way to put it? You said a Democrat in the Ukraine was overthrown
:17:47. > :17:48.suggesting you weren't on the side of the demonstrations against
:17:49. > :17:54.Yanukovych. What was your view about the shooting by snipers of the
:17:55. > :17:58.demonstrators? My whole point is that the situation is deeply
:17:59. > :18:01.complex. There is no evidence that our intervening will make things
:18:02. > :18:07.better. It is not our business. We can't make it better. That is the
:18:08. > :18:12.point. Let's go on. We will move on next to immigration, which is a key
:18:13. > :18:15.part of course of EU membership, the free movement of people, which means
:18:16. > :18:20.citizens of member states are free, as they were talking about a moment
:18:21. > :18:25.ago, to live and work in other EU countries. Kerry Francis? Although I
:18:26. > :18:30.believe immigration is essential to all European countries' economies,
:18:31. > :18:32.it needs to be controlled and I'm concerned the UK's infrastructure
:18:33. > :18:40.can't cope with the current high levels. How would you address that?
:18:41. > :18:44.Nick Clegg? You are right to make sure, to highlight that we need to
:18:45. > :18:48.make sure that as people move into this country, and as they move out,
:18:49. > :18:52.1.5 million people from else have come to our country since 2004. Half
:18:53. > :18:57.of those have gone back home. There are 1. Million Brits elsewhere in
:18:58. > :19:00.the European Union. So there are people moving in-and-out. You need
:19:01. > :19:03.to make sure that the checks we have in place, the infrastructure we have
:19:04. > :19:08.in place, the support is in place. That is one of the reasons that we
:19:09. > :19:11.are changing and have changed in this Coalition Government the
:19:12. > :19:15.benefit rules, so people can't turn up and claim benefits, no questions
:19:16. > :19:20.asked, no strings attached on the first day. That is why I think we
:19:21. > :19:23.should reinstate the exit checks that were taken away by previous
:19:24. > :19:29.governments, so we can count people out just as well as counting people
:19:30. > :19:32.in. We have to be clear that this is a two-way street and it is really
:19:33. > :19:36.important to create jobs in this country. One in seven of all
:19:37. > :19:38.businesses have been established from people who have come from
:19:39. > :19:44.elsewhere in the world to pay their taxes and to put more into the
:19:45. > :19:50.coffers Ra they're than to take out. Nigel Farage? Yes, I think the
:19:51. > :19:53.impact on public services isn't really discussed enough here. It is
:19:54. > :19:56.interesting. When the Labour Government predicted 13,000 people
:19:57. > :20:00.extra would come a year from Eastern Europe and Nick Clegg wrote in the
:20:01. > :20:06.Guardian, "Don't worry, it will be a wee trickle." We saw a migratory
:20:07. > :20:11.wave come to Britain we could never have predicted. We are still in that
:20:12. > :20:15.territory. The big increase in net migration last year came almost
:20:16. > :20:19.solely from the European Union and we have of course in the eurozone
:20:20. > :20:23.some perilous problems in Spain and Italy and the difficulty is, we
:20:24. > :20:26.can't plan anything. We don't know how many people are coming, so we
:20:27. > :20:29.can't plan anything. We have a chronic problem in schools, with the
:20:30. > :20:34.National Audit Office saying we need to make a quarter of a million new
:20:35. > :20:38.primary school places immediately and housing - goodness me - we need
:20:39. > :20:43.to build a house every seven minutes just to cope with immigration into
:20:44. > :20:49.this country. So we have got huge problems with a population over
:20:50. > :20:53.which we have no control at all. Of course, Kerry, as ever, it is not
:20:54. > :20:56.true to say that anyone can come here. People can only come here from
:20:57. > :21:01.the European Union and stay here and stay here if they want to support
:21:02. > :21:05.themselves, if they want to work, if they are students. I would say we
:21:06. > :21:08.need to have level-headed debate. It is a difficult debate, this. A lot
:21:09. > :21:12.of people are anxious about immigration. Last week, I told you
:21:13. > :21:17.about the way that the UKIP had said that 29 million Bulgarians and
:21:18. > :21:21.Romanians might come to this country when there aren't 29 million
:21:22. > :21:25.Bulgarians and Romanians in those two countries. This leaflet is a
:21:26. > :21:28.picture of a very unhappy-looking native American. It says, "He used
:21:29. > :21:35.to ignore immigration. Now he lives on a reservation." The suggestion
:21:36. > :21:38.being if we ignore immigration, the British people will be couped up on
:21:39. > :21:42.a reservation. Nigel Farage, by staying in the European Union, we
:21:43. > :21:46.are not going to be couped up on a native American reservation. What
:21:47. > :21:52.are you going to say next, you are Crazy Horse or Sitting Bull? I don't
:21:53. > :21:56.know that leaflet, Nick. It is your leaflet. Do you want to comment,
:21:57. > :22:00.briefly, on that? I don't recognise that leaflet. I will say this to
:22:01. > :22:06.you. It is your leaflet. All sorts of things get put out. I wouldn't
:22:07. > :22:10.endorse its sentiments. It is bad news for ordinary British workers
:22:11. > :22:14.and families that we have had over the course of the last decade
:22:15. > :22:18.because of an excess in the labour market - not talking about benefits
:22:19. > :22:23.- we have had wage compression where wages have gone down by 14% in real
:22:24. > :22:27.terms since 2007. We have had a doubling of youth unemployment. It
:22:28. > :22:34.is good for the rich. It's cheaper nannies and cheaper chauffeurs. We
:22:35. > :22:37.need to have a control on immigration over the numbers coming
:22:38. > :22:41.here and over the quality of people coming here. I don't want us to
:22:42. > :22:47.discriminate against India and New Zealand because we have an open door
:22:48. > :22:51.to Bulgaria and Romania. Let's have an immigration policy based on
:22:52. > :22:55.quality. You didn't answer the nub of the question by using the
:22:56. > :22:58.leaflet, which was about the infrastructure, about housing, about
:22:59. > :23:07.schools, about the NHS. What is your answer to that? Exactly. Kerry is
:23:08. > :23:11.right. Where a school has more people, more parents applying to
:23:12. > :23:14.have their children go to the school because of a change in the local
:23:15. > :23:19.population, central government must and does give more money to those
:23:20. > :23:25.schools. There are 96% of all people on social housing in this country
:23:26. > :23:27.are British. 90% of all the new employment created in our country
:23:28. > :23:30.over the last year have gone to British citizens. All I'm saying is,
:23:31. > :23:33.yes, this is an important issue. Yes, we should support public
:23:34. > :23:40.services where there are pressures. Yes, let's make sure that our border
:23:41. > :23:45.checks work properly. Let's not indulge in dangerous
:23:46. > :23:49.scaremongering... No housing problem, no schools problem, no NHS
:23:50. > :23:53.problem in your view? Of course there are. Because of immigration?
:23:54. > :23:58.There are always problems when you have people. When you have what,
:23:59. > :24:02.sorry? The idea there will be no problems at all, if you are not part
:24:03. > :24:05.of the European Union. There are countries on the other side of the
:24:06. > :24:08.planet where people move from one country to another. You can't wish
:24:09. > :24:12.away the fact that people have moved from one country to the next. What
:24:13. > :24:15.you need to make sure is that people play by the rules, they don't
:24:16. > :24:18.exploit our generosity through benefits, which support public
:24:19. > :24:22.services and we make sure we create jobs in our country which go to the
:24:23. > :24:26.many British people who need them. Nigel Farage? I'm sorry, the whole
:24:27. > :24:28.point is we have no idea how many people are coming here from the
:24:29. > :24:33.European Union next year, the year after, or the year after that.
:24:34. > :24:37.Unconditionally, we have an open door to 485 million people and many
:24:38. > :24:42.of them - and I feel sorry for them because they are living in poor,
:24:43. > :24:47.former Communist countries and others who took up the ideas of
:24:48. > :24:55.people like yourself and stupidly joined the euro - they are finding
:24:56. > :24:58.themselves forced into povR rty. -- poverty. There was a report out this
:24:59. > :25:02.morning from migration watch that said at current numbers we have to
:25:03. > :25:06.build a new city the size of Manchester to cope with immigration
:25:07. > :25:11.over the next four to five years. What I want is us to get back
:25:12. > :25:15.control of our borders and be selective about who comes here. We
:25:16. > :25:18.heard it again, more dangerous scaremongering. The population of
:25:19. > :25:23.Manchester, of Greater Manchester is 2.7 million. It is a nonsense, this
:25:24. > :25:28.idea that 2.7 million people come from here. Only 1.5 million have
:25:29. > :25:32.come since 2004, Kerry, half of those have gone back home. Pause a
:25:33. > :25:38.moment. I said we had two questions. This is the second one from Simon
:25:39. > :25:43.Lock, which came into our website. "Do you consider the social impact
:25:44. > :25:48.of unlimited EU immigration to be positive or has it caused a damaging
:25:49. > :25:53.element of cultural segregation?" Nigel Farage? It is interesting. So
:25:54. > :25:57.often, the debate is framed in terms of economics. One side claims it is
:25:58. > :26:01.a net benefit to the economy. The other side claims actually it's
:26:02. > :26:05.costing us money because we are having to pay for primary school
:26:06. > :26:08.places. The real impact and the real upset up-and-down this country, the
:26:09. > :26:12.shock, if you like, is that immigration on this scale has
:26:13. > :26:16.changed fundamentally the communities, not just of London, but
:26:17. > :26:19.actually of every city and every market town in this country. It's
:26:20. > :26:23.happened rapidly over the last few years. It's led to increasing
:26:24. > :26:29.segregation in our towns and cities, which for a country that has always
:26:30. > :26:33.had a great record of racial harmony and integration, that is bad news.
:26:34. > :26:37.Worst of all, what it's done socially, it's left a white
:26:38. > :26:41.working-class, and yes, I know educationally many have not done as
:26:42. > :26:44.well as we would like, it's left a white working-class as an
:26:45. > :26:50.underclass. That I think is a disaster for our society. This does
:26:51. > :26:55.get down to the nub of it, Simon's question. It is about our, Nigel
:26:56. > :26:58.Farage and mine, conflicting attitudes towards modern Britain. Of
:26:59. > :27:01.course, there are problems in some parts of the country where you get a
:27:02. > :27:06.big change in the local population. On the whole, Nigel Farage says he
:27:07. > :27:12.basically doesn't like modern Britain. I love the diversity and
:27:13. > :27:15.the compassion and the outward-facing values of modern
:27:16. > :27:19.Britain. We should be celebrating that, not denigrating that. Not
:27:20. > :27:23.turning the clock back on this issue, not turning the clock back as
:27:24. > :27:26.Nigel Farage has done by saying that people who are gay are not allowed
:27:27. > :27:30.to get married, not turning the clock back on women's rights - Nigel
:27:31. > :27:34.Farage has said women are worth far less in the workplace. Not turning
:27:35. > :27:40.the clock back by saying that climate change is some conspiracy.
:27:41. > :27:45.Let's go with the grain of what modern Britain is and not turn the
:27:46. > :27:51.clock back to some 19th Century bygone age that doesn't exist
:27:52. > :27:55.anymore. Nick, it is the duty of Government to make sure its own
:27:56. > :27:59.citizens have the best chance for advancement that is possible. I
:28:00. > :28:06.mention the white working-class. I could of course in London mentioned
:28:07. > :28:11.the Afro-Caribbean community, 50% of whose youngsters are unemployed. I
:28:12. > :28:17.understand why big business supports you, you have given us a cheap
:28:18. > :28:21.labour economy. It has not been good for the people at the bottom of
:28:22. > :28:25.society. We need to find a way to give people at the bottom of society
:28:26. > :28:30.and to give our young people jobs and we will not do that with an open
:28:31. > :28:36.door immigration policy to Southern and Eastern Europe. That is about
:28:37. > :28:43.putting British people first. It is all very well for Nigel Farage to
:28:44. > :28:46.pontificate from the sidelines of his taxpayer-funded job in Brussels.
:28:47. > :28:51.This Government has had to sort out the biggest mess in our economy in a
:28:52. > :28:55.generation. We have created 1.6 million jobs, 90% of new employment
:28:56. > :28:58.has gone to British people. We are giving people huge tax cuts by
:28:59. > :29:02.raising the point at which you start paying income tax. We have expanded
:29:03. > :29:05.apprenticeships for young people people who need to get into work on
:29:06. > :29:09.a scale never seen before. What about the argument... That's real
:29:10. > :29:12.solutions for the world in the way that it is. Not fantasy solutions
:29:13. > :29:16.for a world that doesn't exist anymore. What about the argument
:29:17. > :29:21.that the white working-class has been left behind, which Nigel Farage
:29:22. > :29:24.made? You always have a problem in a fast-moving world, in an economy
:29:25. > :29:32.that changes. You have a problem where people's skills have no -- are
:29:33. > :29:36.no longer need. We need to expand training, make sure that people who
:29:37. > :29:40.do come here speak the language, I agree we must make sure... How are
:29:41. > :29:50.you going to do that? That would be against European Union rules? You
:29:51. > :29:53.can't do that. Yes, we do. I would be for a policy... We do not have
:29:54. > :29:54.that power as members of the European Union. That is the truth of
:29:55. > :30:05.it. Yes, we do. Nigel, are you done on that? Yes.
:30:06. > :30:14.Just a word, as we are halfway through, you can join in this debate
:30:15. > :30:20.by tweeting your thoughts. Use the # Europe debate. Or go to
:30:21. > :30:26.bbc.co.uk/politics. We come to one of the biggest issues perhaps of the
:30:27. > :30:30.European Union. We've touched on it, but it is about the economy and the
:30:31. > :30:34.effect on the economy. Jeremy Nicholson has a question on that. I
:30:35. > :30:39.work for manufacturing industries who want to remain as part of a
:30:40. > :30:44.single European market, but their competitiveness is undermined by
:30:45. > :30:48.costly environment, climate and energy associations. Can the EU
:30:49. > :30:55.reform itself in these areas without Britain threatening to withdraw?
:30:56. > :30:58.Nick Clegg? I think it can. As I said earlier, you can only reform
:30:59. > :31:01.something if you are prepared to put your shoulder into it and lead.
:31:02. > :31:06.That's why I don't think simply isolating ourselves is going to lead
:31:07. > :31:10.to reforms. I want more trade, I want less bureaucracy, less red
:31:11. > :31:16.tape. I've always felt there was just too much red tape, not just
:31:17. > :31:21.European red tape but national red tape on small companies. That's why
:31:22. > :31:25.we as a Government negotiated a complete moratorium on new European
:31:26. > :31:28.red tape being imposed on small apprenticeship companies and indeed
:31:29. > :31:35.small companies across the European Union. We need to go further. I want
:31:36. > :31:40.us to complete the big trade talks with America, worth over ?400 for
:31:41. > :31:43.every individual in this country, worth ?4 billion for British
:31:44. > :31:47.business. You only have the clout to negotiate on an equal footing with a
:31:48. > :31:51.big economic superpower like the United States if you are prepared to
:31:52. > :31:55.be part of an economic superpower on this part of the Atlantic. Hovering
:31:56. > :32:01.in the mid Atlantic, neither one side or the other, is going to help
:32:02. > :32:05.business in the end. APPLAUSE The answer is no. I see no
:32:06. > :32:10.prospect of the European Union changing its environmental policies.
:32:11. > :32:14.The belief in Brussels that global warming is happening is absolute.
:32:15. > :32:21.With whether they are right or no is irrelevant. Because what Europe has
:32:22. > :32:24.done is declared unilateralism. We will unilaterally make sure that
:32:25. > :32:27.every consumer has expensive electricity and we'll make it as
:32:28. > :32:31.difficult as possible for our manufacturing industries to survive.
:32:32. > :32:36.Think about this country. We are responsible for something under 2%
:32:37. > :32:42.of the world's global CO2 emissions. And right at the very moment when
:32:43. > :32:46.the Chinese and the Indians have gone for coal on a scale we can't
:32:47. > :32:49.fathom and are building four new coal-fired power stations every
:32:50. > :32:53.week, and the Americans have gone for shale gas, meaning their gas and
:32:54. > :32:57.electricity prices are less than half they are in this country, we've
:32:58. > :33:01.gone for wind energy, an expensive costs for industry, and we are
:33:02. > :33:07.losing our manufacturing base for this simple reason. 40% of the cost
:33:08. > :33:13.of an average factory ask its energy prices. There is no way we can
:33:14. > :33:17.combat global CO2 emissions without the Indians, the Chinese and
:33:18. > :33:21.Americans working with us. This act of unilateralism is damaging Britain
:33:22. > :33:27.industry. The real problem about the way in which energy is priced,
:33:28. > :33:29.imported into Europe, is our overreliance on oil and gas from
:33:30. > :33:33.Nigel Farage's friend Vladimir Putin. That's the problem. There are
:33:34. > :33:38.too many European countries who are only importing oil and gas from
:33:39. > :33:42.Russia. We have our energy policy set by other people. There's
:33:43. > :33:47.volatility in the prices. That's why we need closer co-operation between
:33:48. > :33:51.European countries, the National Grid in this country has estimated
:33:52. > :33:56.if we build new interconnectors between ourselves and our European
:33:57. > :34:01.neighbours we could reduce the cost of energy in this country by 13%.
:34:02. > :34:05.The idea we can be isolated on the one hand and have Europe
:34:06. > :34:10.overdependent on Russian oil and gas is a solution to our long-term
:34:11. > :34:16.needs, never mind the needs to deal with climate change, a complete and
:34:17. > :34:21.dangerous fantasy. It is interest, you didn't tackle wind energy did
:34:22. > :34:26.you? ? Many of our leading politicians have family member who
:34:27. > :34:31.are or have been associated with the wind energy industry. If you are a
:34:32. > :34:34.landowner and you get ?1,000 a day for putting wind turbines on your
:34:35. > :34:39.land, isn't that great? We've committed ourselves to something
:34:40. > :34:42.which has made the rich richer, the poor poorer, hasn't helped the
:34:43. > :34:47.environment and it is putting British industry, aluminium
:34:48. > :34:50.smelting, steel making, it is leaving our shores and going to
:34:51. > :34:57.parts of the world that don't abide by the rules. It is bad for Britain.
:34:58. > :35:04.What steps would you take about climate change if you were outside
:35:05. > :35:08.the EU? I think that in terms of energy production, Nuclear energy is
:35:09. > :35:13.the carbon-free way of providing electricity, but it takes a long
:35:14. > :35:17.time to get nuclear going. I want cheap energy Nick, if the north-west
:35:18. > :35:21.of England we are sitting on a shale gas field that is huge. If we do
:35:22. > :35:25.what the Americans have done we can bring down the price of energy by
:35:26. > :35:29.nearly 50%. I would say let's not look a gift horse in the mouth.
:35:30. > :35:34.Scrap wind energy, scrap the subsidies, scrap the money for the
:35:35. > :35:37.rich landowners, let's get fracking in the short term and give industry
:35:38. > :35:42.and oral people value for money. Nick, I'm going to move on, because
:35:43. > :35:47.I'm trying to keep an even balance between the two of you and you
:35:48. > :35:51.slightly have the emin, I was going to say verbosity and I don't mean
:35:52. > :35:59.that. You've spoken a little more than Mr Farage. Our next question.
:36:00. > :36:03.What would the effects be on the UK's bargaining position if we were
:36:04. > :36:06.no longer part of the EU? It is interesting. One of the things
:36:07. > :36:11.that's been sold from the start is we have to be part of a big club to
:36:12. > :36:15.have clout, the word that Nick uses, on the world stage in trade. When
:36:16. > :36:20.the World Trade Organisation meets to discuss global trade, the British
:36:21. > :36:24.representative is not allowed to speak. And there've been occasions
:36:25. > :36:28.on which the British representative has been asked to leave the room
:36:29. > :36:34.while Guatemala and everybody else are allowed to be there. We've given
:36:35. > :36:41.away our ability to make our own trade deals with the rest the world.
:36:42. > :36:45.We rely on Australian unelected Dutch bureaucrat, which nobody in
:36:46. > :36:50.this room could name, who is in charge of the policy for 27
:36:51. > :36:53.different countries. I think if we did what Switzerland do or Iceland
:36:54. > :36:58.do, we would be able to negotiate our own trade deals. Those little
:36:59. > :37:02.countries have done deals with Japan and China which we haven't been able
:37:03. > :37:06.to do as part of the European Union. With very no influence as part of
:37:07. > :37:11.the European Union on global trade talks. Natalie, I think it would be
:37:12. > :37:21.very detrimental indeed to the United Kingdom, to us, if we were to
:37:22. > :37:23.seek to renegotiate the 50 trade agreements we have by way of our
:37:24. > :37:25.membership of the European Union. We would have to renegotiate with 27
:37:26. > :37:30.other countries, 77 countries you would have to renegotiate some but
:37:31. > :37:35.not all of the trade access we presently enjoy. Unlike Nigel Farage
:37:36. > :37:38.I used to negotiate some of these trade deals on behalf of British and
:37:39. > :37:42.European business. It is simply not true to say that British negotiators
:37:43. > :37:46.are not in the room. That's false. It's the British Parliament that
:37:47. > :37:51.ratifies these agreements. Crucially, what kind of world do we
:37:52. > :37:55.think we live in? Nigel Farage thinks we live in a world where we
:37:56. > :38:01.can cut ourselves off, be isolated, and that we don't gain when working
:38:02. > :38:04.with other countries by working with India, America, China. These
:38:05. > :38:07.countries aren't going to take seriously as they take the world's
:38:08. > :38:13.largest economy, of which we are a member right now. Nick, Iceland has
:38:14. > :38:18.320... APPLAUSE Iceland has 320,000 people
:38:19. > :38:23.and she negotiated her own free trade deal with China last year.
:38:24. > :38:27.Switzerland has more free trade agreements with the world than we do
:38:28. > :38:31.as part of the European Union. To say that we are not capable of
:38:32. > :38:35.making our own trade agreements, because we would need lots of them,
:38:36. > :38:38.show that you frankly don't believe in this country or the ability of
:38:39. > :38:46.the people of this country to govern themselves. Of course we can make
:38:47. > :38:53.our own trade policy. To say that we can't, I think is defeatism. No. I
:38:54. > :39:03.will tell you what I don't believe in. I don't believe in the
:39:04. > :39:09.dishonest... Are you going to say return to the gold standard or that
:39:10. > :39:18.WG Grace will be batting again. Oh, dear. Switzerland and Norway from to
:39:19. > :39:23.pay into the European Union coffers. They have to obey all European Union
:39:24. > :39:27.laws. Everything gets decided by everybody else in Brussels. They
:39:28. > :39:32.have to transpose it into law in Oslo. They have no British MEPs, no
:39:33. > :39:38.Norwegian or Swiss MEPs or commissioners. They have no passport
:39:39. > :39:44.checks. No power whatsoever. All the rules are made by foreigners.
:39:45. > :39:56.Powerlessness. That's how perverse the patriotism of Nigel Farage has
:39:57. > :40:01.become. Nick, you talk about modernity. You are talking about the
:40:02. > :40:06.membership of the customs union, the only customs union that exists in
:40:07. > :40:11.the whole world. It's a 19th century concept based on building a club and
:40:12. > :40:15.protecting yourself against the rest of the world. It is not fit four
:40:16. > :40:19.purpose in the 21st century. That's why people of real experience of
:40:20. > :40:24.economics, and from a standpoint of people like Nigel Lawson who say we
:40:25. > :40:33.have to get rid of this outdated model and move into the world model.
:40:34. > :40:37.We deserve much better than that. APPLAUSE What do you make of the
:40:38. > :40:41.argument that Nick put that these countries that have these
:40:42. > :40:45.relationships appear to be outside the EU but have a trading
:40:46. > :40:50.relationship have to do what they are told by the EU without a voice
:40:51. > :41:00.within the EU? Mexico has a deal with the European Union. He was cite
:41:01. > :41:05.citing Switzerland. Both Norway and Switzerland sell 85% of their
:41:06. > :41:12.overseas goods to European countries. To maintain free markets
:41:13. > :41:15.and avoid an argument they pay a subscription. Freedom of movement?
:41:16. > :41:22.They've voted potentially to end that. If we sell goods to North
:41:23. > :41:25.America, we have to conform to the standards of North America without
:41:26. > :41:28.having a direct say over the regulations of North America.
:41:29. > :41:33.Wherever you trade in the world, if we sold motor cars to America, they
:41:34. > :41:37.have to be with the steering wheels on the other side. That's the way it
:41:38. > :41:42.is. But what people who sell products do is adapt. It is called
:41:43. > :41:48.business. This is a question sent in by e-mail from Australian Turner.
:41:49. > :41:52.What's the point of having a general election when whoever we vote for
:41:53. > :41:56.cannot do what they promise even if they want to while we are dictated
:41:57. > :42:01.to but unelected bureaucrats in Europe? Where is the democracy in
:42:02. > :42:12.that? Nick Clegg? APPLAUSE
:42:13. > :42:17.This - Anne lift the lid on a really important issue. Nigel Farage says
:42:18. > :42:21.we must take power back. I say by being isolated, by cutting ourselves
:42:22. > :42:24.off, making ourselves less powerful, we'll have less influence over the
:42:25. > :42:30.world in which we inhabit. The reality is we can't change it. We
:42:31. > :42:34.live in a world in which climate change crosses borders, in which
:42:35. > :42:37.criminals cross borders, terrorism crosses borders, in which there are
:42:38. > :42:42.challenges and opportunities that we deal with better together than if we
:42:43. > :42:45.are apart. An argument we are now having about whether Scotland should
:42:46. > :42:50.remain part of the family of nations in the United Kingdom. I believe
:42:51. > :42:53.that it would be better for Scotland to be part of the family of nations
:42:54. > :42:57.of the United Kingdom, not because it would rob Scotland of the
:42:58. > :43:00.identity of Scottish nationhood but because there's so much we can do
:43:01. > :43:07.together that we can't do apart. Exactly the same lesson applies... I
:43:08. > :43:15.don't want this to become a debate on the Scottish referendum. Nick
:43:16. > :43:19.Farage. It is Nigel. Sorry. Anne, great question. Canada lives next
:43:20. > :43:23.door to America, Japan next door to China. They do massive amounts of
:43:24. > :43:27.business with each other but they have their own democracies and
:43:28. > :43:30.rights of self government. General elections have been rendered frankly
:43:31. > :43:33.fairly impotent affairs because we've given away the control of most
:43:34. > :43:38.of our country. I was astonished last week there the first of these
:43:39. > :43:42.debates when Nick Clegg claimed that only 7% of our laws are made in
:43:43. > :43:44.Brussels. He said it was in the House of Commons library note and
:43:45. > :43:49.therefore was unequivocal. I've got the note with me Nick and on page
:43:50. > :43:53.one it says that the British Government estimates that around 50%
:43:54. > :43:57.of UK legislation comes from Brussels.
:43:58. > :44:00.APPLAUSE There are other estimates. Coming direct from the European
:44:01. > :44:06.Commission that over 70% of our laws are made in Brussels. In Germany
:44:07. > :44:10.they reckon 84% of their national laws are made somewhere else. It is
:44:11. > :44:13.time we said, let's run our own democracies in Britain, France and
:44:14. > :44:18.Germany, work and trade together in a European club but not a political
:44:19. > :44:24.union. Bring back democracy. APPLAUSE
:44:25. > :44:28.When you say 70% or whatever you are talking about regulations or laws?
:44:29. > :44:36.Major things or the detail. Maybe I can help. What's is interesting...
:44:37. > :44:45.This doesn't include EU regulations. It says three things. Firstly, 7%,
:44:46. > :44:50.not 75%, which was the figure cooked up fictitiously by Nigel Farage. 7%
:44:51. > :44:56.of primary legislation derives from the European Union. 14% of statutory
:44:57. > :45:01.instruments, laws but done through secondary legislation. They say it
:45:02. > :45:04.is difficult to estimate how many non-elective regulations are
:45:05. > :45:09.produced. No-one says this fictional figure of 75% has any bearing in
:45:10. > :45:13.reality. Let's have the debate not based on scaremongering, not on
:45:14. > :45:17.dangerous fantasy or con, but actually on some of the realities
:45:18. > :45:20.that we have to face as a modern country. Are there no unelected
:45:21. > :45:30.bureaucrats in Europe? The total size of the European
:45:31. > :45:35.bureaucracy is about exactly the same size as the number of people
:45:36. > :45:42.employed by Derbyshire County Council. Some super-state(!) Surely
:45:43. > :45:49.it is what they do that matters, not the numbers? You are making the
:45:50. > :45:57.laws. It is this huge super-state that is trampling on our liberties.
:45:58. > :46:02.7% of our primary law is derived from the European Union. Oh dear.
:46:03. > :46:06.I'm sorry. I said yes to these debates. I thought you would make
:46:07. > :46:10.the pro-EU case. By saying 7% of our laws are made in Brussels, you are
:46:11. > :46:14.lying to the British people about the extent to which we have given
:46:15. > :46:16.away control of our country and our democracy. I'm shocked and surprised
:46:17. > :46:24.you would try and do that. APPLAUSE
:46:25. > :46:27.I don't think in a debate like this, Nigel Farage, you should start
:46:28. > :46:31.making things up to make a point. You have done rather well at it so
:46:32. > :46:38.far, Nick! There we are. No. As I say, the House of Commons Library
:46:39. > :46:44.says 7% of... There it is. Let's not go into this. What are we going to
:46:45. > :46:49.do? I'm sure our fact finders will be able to say whose side they are
:46:50. > :46:53.on. They will. Another question, Sheila Campbell? If the British
:46:54. > :46:57.public are deemed intelligent enough to vote for their own MPs, then
:46:58. > :47:02.surely they are intelligent enough to decide whether to be part of the
:47:03. > :47:07.EU or not? The last referendum was 40 years ago. It was on the question
:47:08. > :47:12.of trade. Not on the federalisation of Europe. Nigel Farage? I couldn't
:47:13. > :47:16.agree more. What really matters about this debate - and it is great
:47:17. > :47:21.we are at last debating the issue - what really matters isn't what I
:47:22. > :47:24.think, or what Nick thinks, what the chairman thinks, or you think. It is
:47:25. > :47:27.what the British public think and they should be given a free and fair
:47:28. > :47:33.referendum and the opportunity to express that. The problem is that,
:47:34. > :47:37.you know, the elite club of career politicians and big businesses don't
:47:38. > :47:41.want you to have a say. You know why? They think you might give the
:47:42. > :47:47.wrong answer. They think you might say no, we would rather govern our
:47:48. > :47:52.own country. The sheer deception of the political class on this issue
:47:53. > :47:57.really is a wonder to behold. Nick, you yourself have done it. It is
:47:58. > :48:00.time for a real referendum. That was you in 2008. When you were
:48:01. > :48:06.challenged on it last week, you said, "Read the smallprint." I have.
:48:07. > :48:11.It is totally and absolutely clear that a referendum is vital and there
:48:12. > :48:18.is no get-out clause at all. Nick's turned his back on it. David Cameron
:48:19. > :48:23.gave us a cast-iron guarantee on the Lisbon Treaty. He turned his back on
:48:24. > :48:29.it, too. Miliband, I have no idea where he stands. It is about time we
:48:30. > :48:33.had our say, it really is. Nick Clegg? Sheila, my opinion hasn't
:48:34. > :48:37.changed over many, many years, including in 2008 when we, as a
:48:38. > :48:42.country, were asked to give up new powers to the European Union, the
:48:43. > :48:47.Government of the day said we must do that through something called the
:48:48. > :48:52.Lisbon Treaty, so when the rules change. I said then - and I believe
:48:53. > :48:57.now - when the rules change, when powers which belong to you are being
:48:58. > :49:00.given up to the European Union by a Government, it shouldn't be for that
:49:01. > :49:03.Government to decide. It should be for YOU to decide. That is where
:49:04. > :49:06.there should be a referendum every time that happens. We have gone
:49:07. > :49:10.further in this Government. One of the first things we did in this
:49:11. > :49:14.Government was to translate that into law so you have a legal
:49:15. > :49:19.guarantee in law that when there is a treaty, when new powers are being
:49:20. > :49:21.given up to the European Union, that won't happen over your heads, there
:49:22. > :49:25.will be a referendum. Nigel Farage and others want a treaty today, or
:49:26. > :49:29.next Tuesday, or next Wednesday. That would put the economic recovery
:49:30. > :49:33.at risk. There is a guarantee in law that when the rules change, when new
:49:34. > :49:36.powers are given up to the European Union, there will, there must and
:49:37. > :49:40.there will be a referendum. The trouble is, Nick, nobody believes
:49:41. > :49:43.you. Nobody believes you. And since you have been together in this
:49:44. > :49:47.Coalition Government, you have given away a vast chunk of control over
:49:48. > :49:51.the management of our financial services industry, our biggest
:49:52. > :49:56.employer. You have given encouragement to the formation of a
:49:57. > :50:00.European External Action Service, and tomorrow when there is a vote in
:50:01. > :50:04.Brussels in the European Parliament, every directive that gets voted on
:50:05. > :50:08.adds to the body of law and the power and control of the European
:50:09. > :50:13.institutions. This isn't about lines in the sand coming every five or ten
:50:14. > :50:19.or 20 years with a treaty. This is about a genuine anger, an anger
:50:20. > :50:22.amongst the over 57s, many of whom voted - I'm not suggesting you are
:50:23. > :50:26.for the moment - anger that they voted as my mum and dad did for a
:50:27. > :50:30.Common Market that turned out to be something different and the majority
:50:31. > :50:32.of us - I'm 50 tomorrow, so I'm hardly young - who have never had
:50:33. > :50:40.the chance to express an opinion. We want to do it now. Nick Clegg, can I
:50:41. > :50:42.ask you something? We last had a referendum 40 years ago. You have
:50:43. > :50:47.described everything that has happened since, the Lisbon Treaty.
:50:48. > :50:51.Why can't there be a referendum on all the things that have happened?
:50:52. > :50:55.Why wait for even more change? I accept Sheila is not going to be
:50:56. > :50:59.satisfied with my response if Sheila wants a referendum now. By the way,
:51:00. > :51:02.people who don't believe there should be a referendum at all are
:51:03. > :51:07.not going to be satisfied with my response either. I have had the same
:51:08. > :51:10.view all the time that in a parliamentary democracy you don't
:51:11. > :51:16.have a referendum every time there is a tweak or change... There was...
:51:17. > :51:21.In 2008, when that leaflet was issued, we were being asked to
:51:22. > :51:25.ratify the Lisbon Treaty. That is when you should have a referendum.
:51:26. > :51:29.If we were to have a referendum right now, or next week, given that
:51:30. > :51:34.we are at such a delicate stage of our economic recovery, which is so
:51:35. > :51:37.important, I think that would be put at peril, I'm not prepared to do
:51:38. > :51:41.that. We have put into law the guarantee there will be a referendum
:51:42. > :51:47.when the rules change again. Hang on. We have time for one more
:51:48. > :51:51.question. It's from Clive Hamilton? What will the EU be like in ten
:51:52. > :51:56.years? What will the EU be like in ten years? Nick Clegg? It will be -
:51:57. > :52:01.where are you, Clive? There you are. I suspect it will be quite similar
:52:02. > :52:05.to what it is now. I think if you look at the history of the European
:52:06. > :52:08.Union, the main achievement, the main achievement has been this
:52:09. > :52:14.creation of what people call the single market. By the way, a
:52:15. > :52:17.creation of Margaret Thatcher, Nigel Farage's great heroine. It's created
:52:18. > :52:23.this huge marketplace of 500 million people who buy our goods, who trade,
:52:24. > :52:27.completely unhindered by endless rules. That will remain the heart of
:52:28. > :52:31.the European Union. The fact that over three million, some people
:52:32. > :52:36.estimate over four million, jobs in our country are linked to our
:52:37. > :52:40.presence in that huge economy. I think that is incredibly important
:52:41. > :52:43.to us. That is why the most important reason for us to remain IN
:52:44. > :52:49.the European Union is jobs, jobs, jobs and that will be case in ten
:52:50. > :52:54.years' time. Nigel Farage? The good news is the most upbeat point of the
:52:55. > :52:57.night is that in ten years' time, we won't be members of the European
:52:58. > :53:01.Union. We will have had our referendum. We will have got our
:53:02. > :53:05.democracy back. I hope and cross my fingers, particularly for the sake
:53:06. > :53:08.of those people trapped in that idiotic eurozone in the
:53:09. > :53:12.Mediterranean, I hope by Britain's example of breaking free of
:53:13. > :53:16.political union, of showing we can trade and co-operate and be friends
:53:17. > :53:21.with our neighbours without signing away to the European Commission and
:53:22. > :53:24.others, our hard-won freedoms and birthright. I hope the rest of
:53:25. > :53:27.Europe will follow us, too. We live in a Europe of democratic nation
:53:28. > :53:31.states that trade together. We will not ever go to war together. That
:53:32. > :53:35.will be a far better way than this trap that so many of those countries
:53:36. > :53:40.stuck in the eurozone now find themselves in. I want the EU to end.
:53:41. > :53:42.I want it to end democratically. If it doesn't end democratically, it
:53:43. > :53:52.will end very unpleasantly. APPLAUSE
:53:53. > :53:57.Sorry, what do you mean by "very unpleasantly"? We are beginning to
:53:58. > :54:03.see the rise of worrying political extremism. There is a Neo-Nazi party
:54:04. > :54:07.in Greece that looks certain to win seats in the European Parliament. We
:54:08. > :54:11.see very large protests, tens of thousands of people. If you take
:54:12. > :54:13.away from people their ability through the ballot box to change
:54:14. > :54:16.their futures, because they have given away control of everything to
:54:17. > :54:23.somebody else, then they tend to resort to unpleasant means. That is
:54:24. > :54:28.my big worry. Nigel Farage has been a Euro politician, paid for by you
:54:29. > :54:34.in Brussels, for 15 years now. I got elected as a Euro MP on the same
:54:35. > :54:36.day. I have heard the same thing for a decade-and-a-half. Everything is
:54:37. > :54:39.going to fall to bits. It hasn't happened. There are huge
:54:40. > :54:43.difficulties in the eurozone. The idea that it is somehow a good thing
:54:44. > :54:47.for Britain, or a good thing for Europe, to want to see it to fall
:54:48. > :54:50.apart, to perhaps predict as Nigel Farage has just done, that it will
:54:51. > :54:56.do so with violence on the streets across Europe, and, at the same
:54:57. > :55:01.time, to side with Vladimir Putin... I haven't said that. I just think it
:55:02. > :55:06.is a huge difference in priorities. We should be making the best of our
:55:07. > :55:08.membership of the European Union, not always seeking to destroy the
:55:09. > :55:13.things we have achieved together with other countries. Nigel Farage?
:55:14. > :55:19.I would say this to you. Had we taken your advice, as recently as
:55:20. > :55:22.2009, and ditched the pound, and joined the euro, we may well find
:55:23. > :55:26.ourselves in a similar position to one or two of those Mediterranean
:55:27. > :55:30.countries and you may have a strong conviction and passion for the
:55:31. > :55:38.European project. When it comes to the euro and immigration, and the e
:55:39. > :55:42.affect on ordinary people's lives, you have been proved wrong again and
:55:43. > :55:49.again and again. 15 seconds? My passion is what is right for Britain
:55:50. > :55:53.in the modern world. I don't think - we are always better when we work
:55:54. > :55:57.with other countries on issues, climate change - I know Nigel Farage
:55:58. > :56:02.denies - terrorism, crime, all the things that we can't deal with on
:56:03. > :56:06.our own in this modern world. I suppose we better draw this to a
:56:07. > :56:09.close. You each have a minute - I don't know whether you are talked
:56:10. > :56:12.out - you have a minute for a closing statement. Nigel Farage, you
:56:13. > :56:17.to go first? This is our country. It is a very good country. It is a
:56:18. > :56:20.country that developed the principle of parliamentary democracy. It has
:56:21. > :56:24.been given away through a whole series of lies and deceits and if
:56:25. > :56:28.the Common Market might have been a good idea 40 years ago, it is
:56:29. > :56:32.hopelessly out-of-date now. Let's take back control of our country.
:56:33. > :56:37.Let's control our borders and have a proper immigration policy. Let's
:56:38. > :56:41.stop giving away ?55 million a day as a membership fee to a club that
:56:42. > :56:46.we don't need to be a part of. Let's reembrace the big world, the 21st
:56:47. > :56:51.Century global world. Let's strike trade deals with New Zealand, India,
:56:52. > :56:55.all of those emerging doing superbly. Let's free ourselves up
:56:56. > :57:00.and in doing so, let's give an example to the rest of Europe. I
:57:01. > :57:04.know the people are behind this. I would urge people come and join the
:57:05. > :57:07.people's army, let's topple the establishment who have led us to
:57:08. > :57:14.this mess. APPLAUSE
:57:15. > :57:19.It is time for you to choose. There are people like Nigel Farage whoion
:57:20. > :57:23.the modern world, want to turn the clock back to a world much more
:57:24. > :57:27.simple. Britain had the Empire. Women knew their place. People who
:57:28. > :57:30.were gay were not allowed to get married, where we didn't have to
:57:31. > :57:35.deal with complicated things like climate change. Then there are those
:57:36. > :57:39.of us who believe and love modern Britain as it is today.
:57:40. > :57:41.Compassionate, diverse, outward-facing, who understand that
:57:42. > :57:45.there are complexities and challenges in the modern world, but
:57:46. > :57:49.who also understand that by working with other countries, we deal with
:57:50. > :57:54.those challenges and we make Britain richer, stronger and safer. In
:57:55. > :57:58.short, real remedies for the way that the world is today. Not
:57:59. > :58:02.dangerous fantasies about a bygone world that no longer exists and that
:58:03. > :58:06.is why I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that we remain part
:58:07. > :58:08.of the European Union because that is how we protect the Britain that
:58:09. > :58:22.we love. So, that's our hour of debate over
:58:23. > :58:25.Britain and the EU to a close. A useful debate, I hope. I don't know
:58:26. > :58:28.whether it made things any clearer. It is interesting to hear the
:58:29. > :58:32.arguments put this way for and against. For reaction and analysis
:58:33. > :58:38.to what you have been hearing over the past hour, you can tune in to
:58:39. > :58:42.the BBC News Channel. For me, it is my thanks - and I will get their
:58:43. > :58:47.Christian names right - to Nick Clegg and to Nigel Farage, and to
:58:48. > :58:51.the audience for coming here to the BBC's Radio Theatre and to you who
:58:52. > :58:55.have watched it at home. I hope you have found it stimulating, enjoyable
:58:56. > :58:58.and certainly controversial. Good night.