:00:17. > :00:21.Few things matter more to families and communities than how our
:00:22. > :00:26.children our taught at school. So when serious allegations emerged
:00:27. > :00:28.about hardline Muslims trying to impose their beliefs in schools,
:00:29. > :00:31.sparks flew. We have a trust issue here.
:00:32. > :00:42.It's not just with the parents, it with the community.
:00:43. > :00:45.Two reports have placed the blame on ideologically driven parents,
:00:46. > :01:04.People have dealt to challenge extremist views.
:01:05. > :01:07.The reports also raise worrying concerns about
:01:08. > :01:14.It's important we give children a broad and diverse education because
:01:15. > :01:21.the society we are bringing them into is also broad and diverse.
:01:22. > :01:26.The educational authorities and accused of failing to do their jobs
:01:27. > :01:32.Could this sort of thing be going on undetected in other schools across
:01:33. > :01:51.Schools once rated outstanding art now deemed
:01:52. > :01:55.Some in the Muslim community say it is a permit inspired witch`hunt.
:01:56. > :02:01.Its aim is to alienate the Muslim community.
:02:02. > :02:04.In the week that children return to school, governors, children,
:02:05. > :02:10.faith leaders and academics have gathered together for a
:02:11. > :02:39.Tonight we are asking what faith can we have in our schools?
:02:40. > :02:42.It follows those revelations that certain Muslim governors have been
:02:43. > :02:46.attempting to impose a strict Islamic ethos
:02:47. > :02:52.on schools that are supposed to be secular state schools.
:02:53. > :02:54.According to Ofsted, the schools watchdog, it's meant
:02:55. > :02:57.that children in some schools in Birmingham have been badly prepared
:02:58. > :03:05.Those children at the heart of this debate is where I want to start.
:03:06. > :03:06.Let's speak to Sarah Hewitt Clarkson.
:03:07. > :03:17.I know you have had some issues in your school, but why does it
:03:18. > :03:20.matter so much to the children across the city and the Midlands?
:03:21. > :03:22.Without sounding cliched, the children we teach
:03:23. > :03:33.They will look after our political well`being, our emotional and
:03:34. > :03:35.economic well`being when they are young adults, including my children
:03:36. > :03:42.Anything that seeks to narrow their education is a categoric
:03:43. > :03:55.mistake because education is about broadening everybody's horizon.
:03:56. > :04:01.Opening doors to knowledge and skills, not just in Birmingham
:04:02. > :04:16.What kinds of things have happened in your school?
:04:17. > :04:21.We have had complaints from one or two people, it's not many at all.
:04:22. > :04:22.Complaints about certain things we do.
:04:23. > :04:25.We had a Shakespeare Festival last year and we had a complaint
:04:26. > :04:30.from one of our governors that it was inappropriate because the comedy
:04:31. > :04:33.was about falling in love and he thought it was inappropriate.
:04:34. > :04:36.We have had racist comments from one of our parents who said we
:04:37. > :04:38.should get rid of all the white children in our school.
:04:39. > :04:41.Let's speak to Mohammed Ashraf who is a former governor are
:04:42. > :04:52.of a school that is part of the Park View Educational Trust.
:04:53. > :04:54.The allegation is that you and other governors let
:04:55. > :04:58.down your children and you did not open them to a world of tolerance.
:04:59. > :05:03.The only thing we let them down over was the standard
:05:04. > :05:17.This is something that schools have not been delivering very well
:05:18. > :05:22.The irony is that these schools have finally started to produce results
:05:23. > :05:26.and we have an issue like the Trojan Horse come to light.
:05:27. > :05:38.The focus has been moved away from education.
:05:39. > :05:42.Peter Clark investigated schools under the Trojan Horse
:05:43. > :05:45.allegation said there was not enough emphasis on differences.
:05:46. > :05:57.If they're not prepared for modern life, but it's not stopping them.
:05:58. > :06:01.What did we do different to what any other school is doing?
:06:02. > :06:06.If you look at the education act, it a daily collective act of worship.
:06:07. > :06:14.Religion is already embedded in schools which is one aspect.
:06:15. > :06:19.The tragedy is that children are being put second.
:06:20. > :06:25.The teachers and their careers are being put first.
:06:26. > :06:34.You deliberately chose to send your children to a non`faith school.
:06:35. > :06:47.The school had, up until last year, been seen
:06:48. > :06:50.as a broad`based educational school in terms of different religions.
:06:51. > :06:56.Since this last academic year, that seemed to narrow
:06:57. > :06:59.and I just felt it went against the grain of what we believe
:07:00. > :07:02.our daughter should be receiving in terms of a broad education.
:07:03. > :07:07.And you are Muslims, but you wanted your daughter to have
:07:08. > :07:18.She was upset that Christmas was cancelled?
:07:19. > :07:24.We live in a large multicultural society and it is important to us as
:07:25. > :07:27.a family that she is exposed to as many of those and learns about many
:07:28. > :07:31.of those so that when she grows older, she knows where she fits in
:07:32. > :07:41.I disagree fundamentally with your statement that our school was
:07:42. > :08:12.That school was teaching art, politics, citizenship skills.
:08:13. > :08:15.How our school was any different to any other school and why these
:08:16. > :08:18.statements have been made about our in particular, I don't understand.
:08:19. > :08:21.I can fundamentally say to you both statements are untrue and they are
:08:22. > :08:48.probably based on a political agenda by a former Education Secretary.
:08:49. > :08:50.What I have seen of the debate so far...
:08:51. > :08:52.Often the voice of young people has been absent, especially
:08:53. > :08:55.when we talk about the role of faith in public life generally,
:08:56. > :08:59.Often it is the voice of parents, those with power
:09:00. > :09:04.in the system that we hear from, we do not often hear about
:09:05. > :09:06.the potential rights that might be being infringed of young people.
:09:07. > :09:10.We really need to engage much more with that analysis like that and
:09:11. > :09:16.talk to more young people about what they feel they are losing out on.
:09:17. > :09:20.I agree with the point that we need to provide young people with an
:09:21. > :10:03.education that will allow them to navigate our very diverse society.
:10:04. > :10:09.They were not sharing the information that they had. None of
:10:10. > :10:15.us put the jigsaw together until far too late. Your own report suggested
:10:16. > :10:21.that one of the underlying reasons why no action was taken was a fear
:10:22. > :10:31.of being labelled racist or Islamophobic, do you accept that was
:10:32. > :10:36.a valid criticism? Where that culture has come from, I think it
:10:37. > :10:42.predates even my time on the council and it has grown over time. What is
:10:43. > :10:47.important to remember is that here at the Seoul we fully access to the
:10:48. > :10:55.reports and criticisms and we are trying to put it right and we are
:10:56. > :10:59.working hard with our partners to put right those things that let us
:11:00. > :11:10.down in the past and allowed it to happen. Surely we cannot live in a
:11:11. > :11:22.culture where people are afraid to say things are wrong for fear of
:11:23. > :11:25.being labelled Islamophobic. If we do not exercise our judgement based
:11:26. > :11:30.on our confidence it begs the question as to whether the people
:11:31. > :11:37.are fit for purpose. One way this issue was dealt with was that when
:11:38. > :11:40.your members, planes to Birmingham City Council instead of being
:11:41. > :11:47.listened to they were issued with gagging orders and paid off. Yes, we
:11:48. > :11:55.have seen evidence in the last five years that 28 Headteachers have been
:11:56. > :12:00.moved on by the use of compromise agreements and ultimately what the
:12:01. > :12:04.Trojan horse allegations have exposed is almost a systemic failure
:12:05. > :12:08.of the agencies and the local authority and the DFA and Ofsted to
:12:09. > :12:17.actually join up their intelligence and move more swiftly. How can you
:12:18. > :12:21.justify people bringing, planes that seem legitimate by giving them money
:12:22. > :12:24.and banning them from talking in public? The important thing to
:12:25. > :12:29.remember about compromise agreements is we have reviewed every one of
:12:30. > :12:33.those that we have talked about and we are doing that in conjunction
:12:34. > :12:37.with the unions at the moment but the important thing to realise is
:12:38. > :12:42.that those people are not blocked from coming forward with their
:12:43. > :12:45.concerns. There are causes in every single agreement that so people can
:12:46. > :12:49.make a protected disclosure if they need to and we would certainly
:12:50. > :12:53.expect people to bring forward issues of misconduct and we have
:12:54. > :13:12.written to the Headteachers and asked them to take part in this
:13:13. > :13:16.enquiry where possible as well. One of the issues has been raised is
:13:17. > :13:20.that of academy schools. You believe that one of these issues is not
:13:21. > :13:25.about radicals but about academy schools, tell me why. What we are
:13:26. > :13:28.seeing is the outcome of the changes of legislation that we have been
:13:29. > :13:31.brought in to push through the academies and free schools
:13:32. > :13:36.movement. My union have been saying it would drive a coach and another
:13:37. > :13:40.lot of horses right through education because it would take
:13:41. > :13:47.through a lot of the ways in which local authorities in the past have
:13:48. > :13:50.been able to monitor what goes on in the schools. Liam Ramsay number of
:13:51. > :13:58.academies and he is saying that the academy system is mired in failure
:13:59. > :14:02.but you have proved it can be successful for children in deprived
:14:03. > :14:06.inner`city areas. Let us remember that none of the schools in this
:14:07. > :14:12.affair were free schools. That is the first thing to say. Secondly for
:14:13. > :14:19.a number of years now education has been a broad church, particularly in
:14:20. > :14:21.our city, we have grammar schools, independent schools,
:14:22. > :14:26.grant`maintained schools local authority schools, academies for a
:14:27. > :14:32.very long time. This is about children and about what is best for
:14:33. > :14:36.children and their education. Do you access that the power you have as a
:14:37. > :14:41.head and you have been a great success in your academy, can also be
:14:42. > :14:45.a potential flaw when you have people with other less honourable
:14:46. > :14:50.motives in other schools. I would love it to be purely me but it is
:14:51. > :15:02.not. I am part of a bigger team. I have members bought I have been, and
:15:03. > :15:06.there are not many heads in the country who have been the head of a
:15:07. > :15:12.maintained local authority school, and free school and an academy like
:15:13. > :15:15.I do. Let me tell you that academies and free schools are judged more
:15:16. > :15:20.than any other type of school I have ever been in. For me we should be
:15:21. > :15:23.looking at what lessons we have learned and when are we going to say
:15:24. > :15:28.that these issues show that something needs to be looked at far
:15:29. > :15:33.more widely across our schools in this country otherwise it becomes
:15:34. > :15:38.something that would be characterised. Let us be clear that
:15:39. > :15:41.the Trojan horse agenda did not distinguish whether schools were
:15:42. > :15:45.academies or whether they were local authority schools. They were all
:15:46. > :15:49.types of schools and it is something about governance and the way schools
:15:50. > :16:02.are run and the organisation of schools. Let me talk to properly
:16:03. > :16:06.monitor what is going on in schools where heads have greater power than
:16:07. > :16:10.they traditionally did? I will answer that in one second. I want to
:16:11. > :16:16.comment on the point about how risky the system we have setup is. Without
:16:17. > :16:20.a doubt trustee boards which we have in academies have more autonomy and
:16:21. > :16:26.therefore there is more risk attached. The way the legal system
:16:27. > :16:30.is set up... It is more risky to have the academy system in your
:16:31. > :16:33.view? If you have a fantastic Board of Trustees it can be brilliant but
:16:34. > :16:38.we must acknowledge there needs to be a system of oversight that
:16:39. > :16:42.ensures where we do not have a fantastic Board of Trustees it can
:16:43. > :16:46.be risky. To answer your question about training and support, there is
:16:47. > :16:51.an awful lot of information out there if boards and trustees and
:16:52. > :16:54.governors look for it. You are a former governor, where you properly
:16:55. > :17:02.trained and equipped to be a governor of a school?
:17:03. > :17:13.We had training once a month. If these Trojan Horse matters had been
:17:14. > :17:16.in the curriculum, it is what the law or act allowed them to do so
:17:17. > :17:23.they were doing nothing wrong within the confines of the lawful. What
:17:24. > :17:26.about that? There was some malpractice and covered in the
:17:27. > :17:31.report. Although I take the point about some of the differences, the
:17:32. > :17:36.picture across the piece shows some governments malpractice. Whether it
:17:37. > :17:40.was because they weren't trained or whether they were wilful, they were
:17:41. > :17:46.not acting as we expect trustees and governments `` governors to act in
:17:47. > :17:51.my organisation has accepted that. We put the call out to governors to
:17:52. > :17:55.say we need to make sure we follow the proper principles of public
:17:56. > :18:02.life. The key question is, how can we make
:18:03. > :18:13.sure that this doesn't happen again? That is what we all want to address
:18:14. > :18:18.in this debate. The new chair of the Parkview Education Trust Is Here And
:18:19. > :18:24.Gives His First Interview Since Being Appointed. What can you do to
:18:25. > :18:27.assure you parents that your schools that these sort of things won't
:18:28. > :18:35.happen again? Since we've taken over as trustees,
:18:36. > :18:41.we've done an immense amount of work over the summer holidays which is
:18:42. > :18:44.all voluntary for those schools. Our focus is on educating those young
:18:45. > :18:48.children and we've make sure the correct governance arrangements are
:18:49. > :18:55.in place. We've written to parents to date about putting nominations
:18:56. > :18:57.forward to make sure we appoint people with the right skills in
:18:58. > :19:03.future. I want to still `` talk to parents.
:19:04. > :19:08.I reassured these problems won't re`occurred? Not really. I am more
:19:09. > :19:16.concerned than I was before the summer break. The discussion is that
:19:17. > :19:19.governors are to blame. The leadership needs to be held to
:19:20. > :19:28.account as well. A lot of failures I `` that took place were under the
:19:29. > :19:37.leadership. Saudi Arabia was funded by plug `` public money. 60% of the
:19:38. > :19:41.funds came from parents and when you mentioned Christmas was cancelled,
:19:42. > :19:47.it was never arranged but was cancelled by the principal.
:19:48. > :19:58.Festivities still took place and I helped in them. Tristan `` Christmas
:19:59. > :20:01.dinner was given to them. Until the leadership is not held to account,
:20:02. > :20:09.they cannot be confident in the future. There was a rate down in
:20:10. > :20:11.communication. This is why, as parents, collectively we got
:20:12. > :20:15.together and thought enough is enough. We couldn't see the
:20:16. > :20:24.principal and the government `` governors hadn't communicated. We
:20:25. > :20:29.realised there was concern is not just within the governors but the
:20:30. > :20:32.leadership. The leadership failed the children. We don't feel ours
:20:33. > :20:40.children are safe. What we have learned about accountability is that
:20:41. > :20:44.there is no transparency. Picking up on the issue of
:20:45. > :20:50.communication that you raised. I want to talk to cancel a Bridget
:20:51. > :20:55.Jones because one of the issues was the lack of joined up ownership over
:20:56. > :21:02.the authority of the schools. Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the
:21:03. > :21:03.funding agency, the Department of education, nobody was talking to
:21:04. > :21:10.each other. That made it hard to spot the
:21:11. > :21:15.patterns but it is a problem. The king to the future, we've identified
:21:16. > :21:20.the problem, what's the solution? We're trying to build a better
:21:21. > :21:28.working relationship with the Department of education and Ofsted.
:21:29. > :21:32.Might `` Mr Wilshaw has let his views on Birmingham be well`known.
:21:33. > :21:38.We are trying to work around that. We are working to try to appoint a
:21:39. > :21:42.joint education Commissioner for the city who will report to the chief
:21:43. > :21:46.executive of the Council and the new Secretary of State who will look at
:21:47. > :21:52.issues across the board, the academies in the city for which the
:21:53. > :21:57.Secretary of State is responsible and bring everything together to try
:21:58. > :22:00.and fix the systems. As a headteacher, do you believe the
:22:01. > :22:08.new education Commissioner will make any difference? I do. There has been
:22:09. > :22:14.a lot of fog around this issue for the last couple of years. For me as
:22:15. > :22:18.a head in Birmingham, to have somebody new who has an
:22:19. > :22:24.oversight... There were many reports here. Not just one report, but many.
:22:25. > :22:30.There are many different unions from many sets of people. What is
:22:31. > :22:37.important is that things improve. Birmingham is a fantastic city. I
:22:38. > :22:41.was born here and it really is very hurtful as a Birmingham citizen to
:22:42. > :22:48.see Birmingham constantly put down in the media. It gives an image that
:22:49. > :22:53.it is a terrible place to be and who would want to be any head here. You
:22:54. > :22:58.have Bridget here from Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the funding
:22:59. > :23:01.agency and now you have the new education Commissioner, how do you
:23:02. > :23:08.have time to do your job without answering to these bosses? Sarah is
:23:09. > :23:12.absolutely right. Birmingham has the largest concentration of national
:23:13. > :23:19.leaders in education in our city. In 2013, the last time we analysed
:23:20. > :23:25.statistics around GCSE results, Birmingham, out of did the very best
:23:26. > :23:35.for children on free school meals, more than anybody London. Let me
:23:36. > :23:40.also say, in 2012, the number one school in the UK out of 36,000
:23:41. > :23:46.schools in Britain, primary and secondary was here in Birmingham.
:23:47. > :23:54.That is the number one school in the UK.
:23:55. > :23:58.Let us take a few more comments. What we have two understand is a lot
:23:59. > :24:03.of the statements made to Ian Kershaw and Peter Clark were not
:24:04. > :24:08.sworn statements, they were allegations and a lot of them
:24:09. > :24:12.haven't been substantiated. As a parent of a child attending our
:24:13. > :24:17.local academy, I find it quite insulted that we have been branded
:24:18. > :24:23.as Islamist 's and there has been right `` white prostitution or
:24:24. > :24:28.Christmas has been cancelled. Parents have proved it was not the
:24:29. > :24:32.case. Do you feel it has stigmatised you, your community and your
:24:33. > :24:39.children and fairly? It has, at the heart of our communities is our
:24:40. > :24:45.schools. We were very happy. A lot of the problems are to do with
:24:46. > :24:48.leadership. If you are a Muslim, a governor or a headteacher and your
:24:49. > :24:55.slim, you're out and if you're not your back in again. You mentioned
:24:56. > :24:59.something, are people going to come back? Will you get Muslims wanting
:25:00. > :25:05.to be government `` governors now? Mohammed? One of the things I found
:25:06. > :25:09.difficult to handle was the fact that, going to our academy and
:25:10. > :25:16.raising eight and so and the type of response you get was, we an academy,
:25:17. > :25:25.we can do this and I had nowhere else to raise it. Academies as side,
:25:26. > :25:31.to have a helpline was some way for parents who have concerns to raise
:25:32. > :25:33.those concerns. Be it a free school, grant`maintained or an Academy and
:25:34. > :25:39.Birmingham city council to take the appropriate action then at least you
:25:40. > :25:43.know what's on in the schools. We are coming to the end, but I want
:25:44. > :25:49.to get a couple of pledges from key people in the room. First from the
:25:50. > :25:53.lead on education for Birmingham city council. If you can give me one
:25:54. > :25:58.pledge for the future to take away from this programme what would it
:25:59. > :26:02.be? What F Dan was that we weren't listening to people and joining
:26:03. > :26:07.things up. In the future, we will listen to heads, governors and
:26:08. > :26:10.parents when they raise their concerns and we will make sure they
:26:11. > :26:16.are taken seriously and acted upon. And the new chair of the Parkview
:26:17. > :26:23.Edging A Sheet `` Educational Trust. Our purpose is education and
:26:24. > :26:27.we will make sure every child is educated to the best standard in our
:26:28. > :26:31.schools. That is the end of the debate for
:26:32. > :26:36.now. But it is not the end of the story. We will make sure those who
:26:37. > :26:41.have made pledges here will be held to account over the coming months.
:26:42. > :26:44.You can catch up on this programme on the BBC I player full stop I
:26:45. > :26:55.would like to thank everybody who has come to see us here in The Drum
:26:56. > :27:00.and Aston, Birmingham. Goodbye. It is only when you communicate you
:27:01. > :27:04.can move forward so it was so important here. Regardless of your
:27:05. > :27:08.opinions, we need to use this. What happened to the children in
:27:09. > :27:14.Birmingham, we need to learn from those mistakes. Is that pledge is we
:27:15. > :27:18.will go on in Birmingham working together on our differences,
:27:19. > :27:22.learning to enjoy each other's religious differences or none and
:27:23. > :27:27.for everyone to have an excellent all`round education. What happens
:27:28. > :27:33.now that is more important than what has happened up to now, because I
:27:34. > :27:40.have children in school and these kids are too precious to mess about
:27:41. > :27:42.with. Therefore, sometimes this can be a bit like messing about and I
:27:43. > :27:59.don't want to mess about. Good evening. In mixed bag across
:28:00. > :28:00.the unique to kingdom. Dash`mac United