Election 2016: The Wales Leaders' Debate

:00:00. > :00:00.Official figures suggest GDP was 0.4% from January to March, down

:00:00. > :00:08.The MP for Bradford, Naz Shah, has been suspended

:00:09. > :00:09.from the Labour Party pending an investigation.

:00:10. > :00:11.The move follows comments she made before becoming

:00:12. > :00:14.an MP on social media, suggesting the state of Israel

:00:15. > :00:17.The second all-out strike by junior doctors in England has come

:00:18. > :00:20.to an end, as their dispute with the government over the imposition

:00:21. > :00:24.Now on BBC News we're crossing to St David's Hall in Cardiff

:00:25. > :00:26.for a Leaders' Debate on the Welsh Assembly elections.

:00:27. > :00:30.Polling day is a week tomorrow and this is our last opportunity to

:00:31. > :00:31.bring together our leading political figures in Wales. Stand-bys and the

:00:32. > :00:52.BBC Wales leaders debate 2016. Good evening. A warm welcome to St

:00:53. > :00:56.David's Hall in Cardiff are the BBC Wales leaders debate 2016. And

:00:57. > :01:01.welcome to viewers right across the UK watching on the BBC News Channel.

:01:02. > :01:05.This is where we will be spending the next 90 minutes testing the

:01:06. > :01:09.claims and pledges of political parties in Wales. Tonight we will be

:01:10. > :01:12.considering some of those key areas controlled by the national assembly,

:01:13. > :01:17.the things many of you will be voting on next week, the health

:01:18. > :01:23.service, jobs, education. Joining us tonight we have the leaders parties

:01:24. > :01:26.in Wales. Here they are. We have Carwyn Jones the Labour, we have

:01:27. > :01:33.Alice Hooker Stroud for the Green party, Nathan Gilford Ukip, supplied

:01:34. > :01:37.Cymru we have Leanne Wood, Andrew Arty Davis are the Conservatives and

:01:38. > :01:39.Kirsty Williams for the Liberal Democrats. Can we give them a warm

:01:40. > :01:58.welcome. APPLAUSE I'm adding my welcome. Thank you for

:01:59. > :02:01.joining us. We have a specially selected audience. They reflect

:02:02. > :02:05.different opinions and are drawn from different parts of oils. They

:02:06. > :02:08.will be providing most of the questions. Each of the politicians

:02:09. > :02:12.will have time to answer before we open the debate to involve the

:02:13. > :02:16.audience. Those of you watching at home listening on the radio can get

:02:17. > :02:24.involved in the discussion, visit our life page on the BBC Wales

:02:25. > :02:30.website. We are going to start with an opening statement of up to one

:02:31. > :02:34.minute, that is the limit, from each of the participants. This is their

:02:35. > :02:38.opportunity to set out the broad themes of their campaign, their big

:02:39. > :02:43.vision and ideas, their main appeal to the voters with just over a week

:02:44. > :02:49.to go. We drew lots to decide the order so it would be fair and the

:02:50. > :02:56.first is Alice Hooker-Stroud for the Green party. Over to you. To create

:02:57. > :03:01.a sustainable and fair future in Wales we need Green voices in the

:03:02. > :03:06.assembly. We will bring new ideas and fresh thinking to our assembly.

:03:07. > :03:12.We will make sure that we all have access to a warm, affordable home.

:03:13. > :03:15.We will establish a clean energy economy fit for the future of Wales

:03:16. > :03:20.and protect our public service is across the country. We will make

:03:21. > :03:28.sure the Welsh government delivers for us all know matter where we live

:03:29. > :03:31.or who we are. In Westminster, Scotland, Ireland and the EU elected

:03:32. > :03:37.Greens have punched well above their weight. With seats in the Welsh

:03:38. > :03:43.assembly we will punch well above our weight in Wales. On the regional

:03:44. > :03:48.ballot you can vote for what you believe them. If you believe in a

:03:49. > :03:52.sustainable and fair future for Wales, if your regional freight to

:03:53. > :04:01.the Wales Green party. Thank you. APPLAUSE

:04:02. > :04:09.Thank you for opening business for us. Carmen Jones is next. Tonight in

:04:10. > :04:13.Wales our NHS staff are at work, going the extra mile, covering

:04:14. > :04:17.shifts, not just treating people but caring for people to. Tonight in

:04:18. > :04:21.England thousands of junior doctors are walking home from picket lines

:04:22. > :04:25.outside hospitals they normally staff. Hospitals that rely on them

:04:26. > :04:29.and that those junior doctors of working in. If there is a greater

:04:30. > :04:32.contrast between what Labour is doing in Wales and what the Tories

:04:33. > :04:36.are doing in England I can't think of one. There are still challenges

:04:37. > :04:41.facing the Welsh NHS but unlike the Tories and bridegroom Ruth we won't

:04:42. > :04:47.say to staff you have to work harder to pay for cuts. We already know you

:04:48. > :04:51.are under pressure. We won't have an expensive reorganisation, we won't

:04:52. > :04:54.take away decision-making from doctors in the north of Wales and

:04:55. > :04:59.give it to bureaucrats in Cardiff. The NHS is on the ballot paper in

:05:00. > :05:02.this election, safe, sustainable health services available when

:05:03. > :05:10.needed. That's what I'll be striving for and with your support that's

:05:11. > :05:18.what we'll do. APPLAUSE Think you very much. We are going to

:05:19. > :05:21.Leanne Wood supplied camera. Across Wales something exciting is

:05:22. > :05:25.happening. The gap is closing between the party that has been

:05:26. > :05:30.leading the worst government for 17 years and the party of Wales. The

:05:31. > :05:35.Tories have been pushed into third place. The election next week is a

:05:36. > :05:40.two horse race between Plaid Cymru and the party that has dominated

:05:41. > :05:46.Welsh politics for a century. They have had their chance to turn around

:05:47. > :05:52.the economy, to end the inequalities in health, education, between Wales

:05:53. > :05:57.and the rest of the UK. Their time is up. We all know this isn't as

:05:58. > :06:03.good as it gets country. If you agree with me that it's time for

:06:04. > :06:09.change, then vote on it. Fight for hope, vote for the most ambitious

:06:10. > :06:12.programme of government, vote for vision, vote for confidence. We have

:06:13. > :06:19.ten days to go before you can take the opportunity to back our cancer

:06:20. > :06:24.contract, our plan for an extra thousand doctors, 5000 nurses, free

:06:25. > :06:30.social care, the excellence in teaching and our blueprint to turn

:06:31. > :06:31.around the Welsh economy. Back Plaid Cymru for the change Wales needs.

:06:32. > :06:45.APPLAUSE We're going to join a thin deal of

:06:46. > :06:50.Ukip. Next week you have the opportunity to vote. And now you

:06:51. > :06:56.have the opportunity to put a fresh, new party into the assembly. With

:06:57. > :07:02.the Root without Ukip we would not be having a referendum on our EU

:07:03. > :07:08.membership in June. Without Ukip, the policies on immigration would

:07:09. > :07:11.still be a taboo to talk about. Without us we have already managed

:07:12. > :07:15.to change things, without actually having people elected here in

:07:16. > :07:19.Westminster and in the assembly. We have punched well above our weight

:07:20. > :07:25.as a party. When we get into the assembly we will be able to do that

:07:26. > :07:31.and be your voice which has been so lacking. You know in your heart that

:07:32. > :07:37.voting the same old way will not change anything here in Wales. This

:07:38. > :07:40.is your chance to shake things up, hold the other parties to account,

:07:41. > :07:51.and be part of a change that Wales deserves. APPLAUSE

:07:52. > :07:55.Thank you, Nathan. And our next opening statement is from Kirsty

:07:56. > :08:03.Williams of billable Democrats. Good evening. You've told me you want

:08:04. > :08:09.smaller class sizes feel children, you want dignified care from our

:08:10. > :08:13.NHS. You just want the opportunity to get on in life. I've listened and

:08:14. > :08:19.my party the Welsh double Democrats has listened and our priorities are

:08:20. > :08:24.your priorities. We'll cut class sizes, we'll put more nurses into

:08:25. > :08:29.unity. And we will create an opportunity economy that supports

:08:30. > :08:35.Wales's small businesses and ensures that everyone has a home of their

:08:36. > :08:40.own. Remember, we would be any party that voted against the unfair

:08:41. > :08:45.?10,000 pay rise for assembly members because we know it's time to

:08:46. > :08:51.do things differently. It's time for someone to stand up for people, so

:08:52. > :08:57.this time, support the Welsh double Democrats and help us deliver a

:08:58. > :09:04.Wales that will work for you. -- Welsh Liberal Democrats. APPLAUSE

:09:05. > :09:09.But was Kirsty Williams for the Lib Dems. The final opening statement

:09:10. > :09:13.for the Conservatives from Andrew. Good evening. It's a real privilege

:09:14. > :09:17.to be hair and I have a very simple message. We can carry on with

:09:18. > :09:22.business as usual for the next five years or we can vote next week to

:09:23. > :09:26.secure real change you commie your family, and your community. We can't

:09:27. > :09:29.carry on with business as usual, that has seen a lazy Labour

:09:30. > :09:33.government run thing since the dawn of devolution. If you want to

:09:34. > :09:38.protect the NHS spending and have real terms increases, if you want

:09:39. > :09:41.quality jobs with decent take home pay, if you want excellence in

:09:42. > :09:47.education and security and dignity in old age, then you need to vote

:09:48. > :09:52.Welsh Conservative next Thursday. Labour are only one vote away from

:09:53. > :09:57.losing the control of the Senedd. There is everything to vote for next

:09:58. > :10:00.Thursday and if you want to secure a better, brighter future for you

:10:01. > :10:08.commie your family, and your community, then you need to vote

:10:09. > :10:17.Welsh Conservative. Let's vote to make this happen. APPLAUSE

:10:18. > :10:22.Six opening statements and thank you, you've covered a range of

:10:23. > :10:30.things already. I think the sensible thing for us to start with health.

:10:31. > :10:33.It's such a big issue and you referred that some of the headlines

:10:34. > :10:38.today with junior doctors in England but there are many other issues here

:10:39. > :10:44.as well. We are going to start with a paediatric consultant. Your

:10:45. > :10:53.question first of all pleas and then just explain to you, I will take con

:10:54. > :10:57.side answers. -- concise answers. I will stop with Kirsty and work our

:10:58. > :11:04.way down, and the next question we will start with Andrew and work our

:11:05. > :11:09.way round. Your question. What specific steps will you take if you

:11:10. > :11:14.come into the government to ensure that the pressure on the hospitals

:11:15. > :11:19.is relieved and the NHS is sustainable for the future? Given

:11:20. > :11:24.that you are someone with hands-on experience, if you were ask people

:11:25. > :11:34.in practical terms for some changes what would be at the top of your

:11:35. > :11:41.list in the NHS in Wales? A waiting times, GP waiting times

:11:42. > :11:44.would be top of my priorities. When you talk about relieving pressure

:11:45. > :11:52.you are talking about waiting times in those areas? I am, yes. Thank you

:11:53. > :11:57.for the question. One of the ways in which we can help reduce pressure in

:11:58. > :12:01.A is make sure we get our family doctor system right in Wales. Very

:12:02. > :12:05.often people go to A because that's the any part of the NHS that

:12:06. > :12:10.is open for them. That's why we want to create an access to GP fund to

:12:11. > :12:14.allow GP surgeries to employ more staff in the primary care team to

:12:15. > :12:20.help them see more patients. How much money is in that fund? We want

:12:21. > :12:24.to start with ?10 million per year. With that make a big difference? It

:12:25. > :12:28.makes a big difference. We might have a GP who spend an afternoon

:12:29. > :12:33.doing medicines reviews. If you can employ a clinical pharmacist to do

:12:34. > :12:36.that he could have an afternoon of seeing patients. Wheels need more

:12:37. > :12:48.staff. I have been championing more nurses in hospital wards. I

:12:49. > :12:54.Many people in Wales to not have access to the services they need. We

:12:55. > :12:59.want to create a parity between physical and mental health so they

:13:00. > :13:02.are treated equally. More important than that, I want to take politics

:13:03. > :13:09.out of the NHS. Health is too important. If we are to create a

:13:10. > :13:11.sustainable NHS for the future, we need to stop arguing, we need to sit

:13:12. > :13:17.around the table with pressure was like you and the people of Wales, so

:13:18. > :13:19.we can create a service that is sustainable and can deliver the

:13:20. > :13:21.first-class health care we all deserve. Thank you.

:13:22. > :13:36.APPLAUSE There worth three clear ideas there.

:13:37. > :13:41.We need to protect the NHS budget because they need to know they have

:13:42. > :13:52.the resources to commit the research. That is what we need for

:13:53. > :13:55.the next five years, as opposed to the last five years where we started

:13:56. > :13:59.with devastating cuts. You have to make sure that the resources

:14:00. > :14:03.available to services can be commissioned. The new move into what

:14:04. > :14:06.services you need commissions. We would have no wholesale

:14:07. > :14:10.reorganisation because I don't think the Health Service needs that Comet

:14:11. > :14:15.did sit like a hole in the head. We have had two organisations already,

:14:16. > :14:21.and the third time will not be third time lucky. We have got to tackle

:14:22. > :14:25.the four big killers, dementia,/, cardiac and cancer, to make sure

:14:26. > :14:30.people are aware of the responsibility they need to take

:14:31. > :14:36.themselves so we can slowly but surely increase the public health of

:14:37. > :14:41.Wales. At the moment, it is spiralling out of control. We need

:14:42. > :14:45.to take the pressure of A departments and we will work with

:14:46. > :14:48.the health boards to retain staff as well as recruiting. There is a lot

:14:49. > :14:53.of focus on recruiting staff and rightly so, but retention of staff

:14:54. > :15:00.across the Health Service in Wales is a huge issue. If you have not got

:15:01. > :15:04.that resource of dedicated staff up to the show standards, how can

:15:05. > :15:07.people have treatment? One in seven people are on a waiting list, we

:15:08. > :15:14.cannot afford to have that in the next five years. Thank you.

:15:15. > :15:17.APPLAUSE Several points there as well and I

:15:18. > :15:22.will come back to simpler spending things you said.

:15:23. > :15:29.Leanne is next. In principle, we believe in a public

:15:30. > :15:33.Health Service. We want the opportunity to run the Health

:15:34. > :15:37.Service because we have seen Labour run it down through centralisation.

:15:38. > :15:44.Don't forget, we have seen Labour politicians protesting outside

:15:45. > :15:48.hospitals after the centralisation projects. We know that the Tories

:15:49. > :15:54.will sell it off as they are in England. It is not unusual in some

:15:55. > :16:00.places in Wales to wait three or four weeks for a GP appointment. A

:16:01. > :16:06.waiting times have been reported as their worst ever. For me, it is

:16:07. > :16:09.about the staff. Plaid Cymru want to invest in the recruitment and

:16:10. > :16:13.training of extra doctors and nurses, but also we want to invest

:16:14. > :16:18.in the social care system. Ending that historic anomaly where some

:16:19. > :16:26.care is free and other care has to be pay for. Investment in our staff

:16:27. > :16:34.is key to bringing down waiting times. Thank you. I'm sure there

:16:35. > :16:40.will be responses when I come to you. Nathan is next.

:16:41. > :16:46.We believe strongly in an NHS which is free at the point of delivery,

:16:47. > :16:52.free for all of us. An NHS that basically fulfils the knee that we

:16:53. > :16:57.have. I depend on the NHS, I have a condition for which if I did not use

:16:58. > :17:02.the NHS almost daily, I would be in big trouble. I know that 80% of the

:17:03. > :17:07.work that is done in the NHS is done by our GPs, yet they get 20% of the

:17:08. > :17:13.budget. We need to support them. We need to ensure we have enough.

:17:14. > :17:20.Currently, we only have 136 new GPs coming into circulation, whereas we

:17:21. > :17:30.need 200 a year being trained up. Just to finish, we completely and

:17:31. > :17:35.utterly oppose the transatlantic trade partnership which, if it goes

:17:36. > :17:40.through, we see the privatisation of our NHS, we are the only party that

:17:41. > :17:47.has posted the way through. The only way you can fully oppose it is by

:17:48. > :17:53.leaving the U on the 23rd of June. -- leaving the EU.

:17:54. > :17:57.I am bound to say this. We'll be back here in a few weeks and having

:17:58. > :18:05.a referendum debate. I promise you that. Let's just focus. I know there

:18:06. > :18:09.will be references as we go on. I'm not denying it is relevant, but let

:18:10. > :18:16.us focus precisely on the assembly. Thank you. Focusing precisely on the

:18:17. > :18:22.assembly's work, I will take a step back. I would also like to stay

:18:23. > :18:28.clean and further back and say we need to be looking at creating a

:18:29. > :18:31.healthy society to make sure that people have access to health care

:18:32. > :18:37.when they need it, not just free at the point of use but across Wales,

:18:38. > :18:40.in rural areas as well as urban areas, that is important. What we

:18:41. > :18:46.need to be looking at is the health of our society. For me, that means

:18:47. > :18:50.looking at things in terms of public health, we need to make sure we have

:18:51. > :18:54.warm, affordable homes to make sure people do not get ill. We need to

:18:55. > :18:57.make sure we have secure employment for people so they don't have issues

:18:58. > :19:01.around anxiety that leads to mental health problems. We need to make

:19:02. > :19:05.sure we have safe cycling and walking routes around at Unity is

:19:06. > :19:10.and between schools and where people live so they can have a more active

:19:11. > :19:15.life. All of these things bring together a picture of the healthy

:19:16. > :19:18.society in Wales, which is tackling the root cause before going into the

:19:19. > :19:24.NHS system, before we require that health care. Last point, when we

:19:25. > :19:29.talk about health care, we need to be careful about the targets that we

:19:30. > :19:36.are setting. Obviously, on waiting times, we do need to improve them in

:19:37. > :19:42.Wales, and it is that support we need. It is about giving people

:19:43. > :19:49.those fair wages, good working conditions, enough support staff and

:19:50. > :19:57.good training that is ongoing. You made several points. Thank you.

:19:58. > :20:00.If I may, just for viewers as well, the question was about relieving

:20:01. > :20:06.pressure, and our colleague the doctor that said it was about

:20:07. > :20:10.relieving A and GP waiting times. Some of your ministers have been on

:20:11. > :20:18.the defensive in those areas. What is your message? There are two

:20:19. > :20:25.messages. We put 42% of our budget, now 46 Z of our budget into the NHS.

:20:26. > :20:30.We have more GPs per head than England. It is not all about

:20:31. > :20:39.diverting pressure. We need to make people get the right treatment at

:20:40. > :20:44.the right time. Let's make sure we continue to get the message across,

:20:45. > :20:53.for many people, the pharmacist is the first port of call. We will

:20:54. > :20:58.relieve the pressure from GPs, so people can go to the right places to

:20:59. > :21:00.get the right treatment. Are you disappointed with the progress you

:21:01. > :21:06.have made on waiting times, for example question up A is a

:21:07. > :21:10.challenge in Wales, we have a challenge in Wales. It is important

:21:11. > :21:19.that we are able to take pressure off A A demand has gone up

:21:20. > :21:22.every year. You cannot beat those challenges by pouring money into it.

:21:23. > :21:29.You need to make sure that people don't go to A in the first place.

:21:30. > :21:33.Many people who go to A are elderly. We have introduced a care

:21:34. > :21:36.fund that helps people get the care they need at home so they don't get

:21:37. > :21:42.into an acute situation where they have to go into A That is taking

:21:43. > :21:52.pressure off doctors, and that is important. We will come to comments

:21:53. > :21:56.in a second. Back to the question. You have heard six responses there.

:21:57. > :22:00.Rather different responses. What could you pick out some thing that

:22:01. > :22:04.you consider to be relevant and helpful, and something that is less

:22:05. > :22:12.relevant and less helpful. That is a tricky one. The Plaid Cymru made a

:22:13. > :22:22.point that was closer to my heart, but also the Labour Party has the

:22:23. > :22:25.experience. It is still not working, it needs to go further. What would

:22:26. > :22:30.you do to relieve waiting times in A? What can be done? Is it

:22:31. > :22:40.investing more is the system simpler not working? There has to be a

:22:41. > :22:45.systematic change. The problems that need dealing with outside A should

:22:46. > :22:51.be dealt with outside A They should be more selective slots made

:22:52. > :23:00.available so they don't have to go to A Thank you. Concise comments.

:23:01. > :23:09.First of all, the gentleman in the glasses and the ball over there. I

:23:10. > :23:14.will then be on this side. In 2000 nine, we had a

:23:15. > :23:21.reorganisation of the health boards. -- in 2009. The smallest of those is

:23:22. > :23:28.now in special measures. What good has that done? This last week, I

:23:29. > :23:34.went to my GP, you referred me for an x-ray. The same afternoon, I had

:23:35. > :23:40.the x-ray in a hospital which is fit for the 19th-century rather than the

:23:41. > :23:44.21st, and I thought it was an excellent service. I was then told

:23:45. > :23:50.that the x-ray would be returned in three or four weeks. What are they

:23:51. > :23:55.doing? That is an issue of management. Who will tackle the

:23:56. > :24:01.management of the Health Service? Is the management issue in that area as

:24:02. > :24:05.well? They presumably changed it to improve the management but it does

:24:06. > :24:08.not work. Thank you. I would like to ask a question and selling the

:24:09. > :24:16.treatment of cancer patients in Wales. At the moment, Aneurin Bevan,

:24:17. > :24:23.will be hanging his head in shame at the way that cancer patient I giving

:24:24. > :24:26.treatment in Wales. We are lagging behind England. There are drug

:24:27. > :24:29.treatment you can have across the border that you cannot have in this

:24:30. > :24:33.country. There are people in bed right now, who are ill, and would be

:24:34. > :24:39.better off if they were in England. When I voted for devolution, which I

:24:40. > :24:45.was proud to do so, I did not expect to have second-rate health care in

:24:46. > :24:49.this country. It is not on. It needs addressing. What will you do to sort

:24:50. > :24:57.this out? Thank you. APPLAUSE

:24:58. > :25:03.Over the years, we have had lots of people to come forward to talk about

:25:04. > :25:06.the availability of drugs and whether there should be a cancer

:25:07. > :25:13.drugs fund is one of the big issues. What is your direct answer? You will

:25:14. > :25:18.get cancer treatment more quickly in Wales. All of the figures show that.

:25:19. > :25:22.You get more access more quickly when they have been approved. We

:25:23. > :25:37.know that you will be seen in target when it comes to... The cancer drugs

:25:38. > :25:43.fund in England has come to an end because it did not work. It did

:25:44. > :25:47.work! Cancer is important and it I know full well in my own family that

:25:48. > :25:51.it is aged killer. There are the life threatening conditions will

:25:52. > :25:56.stop when those treatments are improved, it ends the lottery. The

:25:57. > :26:01.cancer drugs fund has worked in England will stop it was only

:26:02. > :26:06.time-limited. They are putting forward new proposals. Patients have

:26:07. > :26:10.gone from Wales to England to get a postcode get those treatments, as

:26:11. > :26:14.the lady identified. It is a tough nut to crack. One in three will have

:26:15. > :26:22.an episode of cancer, going down to one into. We have champion for the

:26:23. > :26:27.last five years that we want a treatment plan. We want all aspects

:26:28. > :26:30.from the diagnostics all the way through to the availability,

:26:31. > :26:35.guaranteeing that over the five years. You cannot brush it under the

:26:36. > :26:45.carpet. You haven't made the improvements. Onto Kirsty.

:26:46. > :26:51.You are absolutely right, and it is not just drugs that are unavailable.

:26:52. > :26:53.We have had to fight to the nail to establish a health technology fund

:26:54. > :26:57.so that cancer patients can have the radiotherapy techniques which are

:26:58. > :27:02.commonplace in England but patients in Wales were not getting. There are

:27:03. > :27:05.cancer surgical techniques that are not being delivered in Wales. I know

:27:06. > :27:12.of the family that were left to beg for their young son, 36 years old, a

:27:13. > :27:16.father of two, to get the cancer operation he needed. It should not

:27:17. > :27:21.come down to who shouts the loudest, it is a right for every patients.

:27:22. > :27:26.The organisation does not fix things, it takes manager's 's eyes

:27:27. > :27:41.of services. Andrew says he does not want a

:27:42. > :27:43.reorganisation, but he want a politician in charge of each health

:27:44. > :27:51.board. We don't need every organisation. But we don't need more

:27:52. > :27:57.politicians. Really support Labour cutting the budget in the last

:27:58. > :28:07.assembly? We need less politics in the Welsh NHS, not more.

:28:08. > :28:16.I want the response to that but given that we've talking about

:28:17. > :28:20.reorganisation you want... We recognise that the health service as

:28:21. > :28:23.it is is not working. There needs to be a much closer relationship

:28:24. > :28:27.between health service and the social care services. All the

:28:28. > :28:32.parties agree that health and social services need to be integrated but

:28:33. > :28:36.Plaid Cymru is the only party with a concrete plan to do exactly that. I

:28:37. > :28:40.would like to answer the question that was put about cancer

:28:41. > :28:51.specifically. I met just the week before last fan Williams who has had

:28:52. > :28:55.to move to England for treatment cancer. It's an absolute scandal

:28:56. > :29:02.that patients in Wales do not get the same level of treatment as

:29:03. > :29:07.patients in other parts the UK. There are big resource issues. Thou

:29:08. > :29:10.ra but it is a question of priorities. The First Minister is in

:29:11. > :29:17.complete denial about this being a problem. Every time we question him

:29:18. > :29:22.in the assembly he is in denial. There is a postcode lottery for

:29:23. > :29:30.drugs in Wales. He doesn't want to end that, we do. In the of Wembley

:29:31. > :29:38.Plaid Cymru have voted against... And supported Labour budgets that

:29:39. > :29:41.have cut the NHS budget in Wales. The Cancer Drugs Fund was put

:29:42. > :29:47.forward by the Tories is exactly the same one as the English Cancer Drugs

:29:48. > :29:50.Fund. Our drugs fund looks at red treatments of other diseases as

:29:51. > :30:00.well. You're not comparing like-for-like. Let's Hang on a

:30:01. > :30:16.second... First Minister, you've been accused

:30:17. > :30:19.of being in denial. I am going to take a few more questions on health

:30:20. > :30:26.as long as you promise to become sites. I've just explained how to

:30:27. > :30:29.end the postcode artery. Two points were raised. I sat in the assembly

:30:30. > :30:35.for five years, Andrew watched our budget being kept by tempers and by

:30:36. > :30:41.his own party and said nothing about it. Nothing to defend Wales. I take

:30:42. > :30:45.with a huge pinch of salt what he is saying now about cutting budgets. I

:30:46. > :30:48.have to say to Leanne, she says she wants to take over the government to

:30:49. > :30:55.run health but she would just handed over to a giant quango. You are

:30:56. > :31:00.misrepresenting our position. I don't think that's the way forward.

:31:01. > :31:07.I would rather pay money on patients. We want the health

:31:08. > :31:15.minister to be responsible for help. We want the government... Stop being

:31:16. > :31:22.in denial. APPLAUSE It's the democratic responsibility

:31:23. > :31:28.you have abdicated. Where would it be based? What do you mean, it's the

:31:29. > :31:33.NHS, it would be all over Wales. APPLAUSE

:31:34. > :31:40.We would have protected the NHS budget, it was our commitment in

:31:41. > :31:44.2011. They took a conscious political decision to cut health

:31:45. > :31:47.spending. That's a political decision they tick. They've been in

:31:48. > :31:54.control the 70 nears and waiting have doubled. APPLAUSE

:31:55. > :31:58.I'm going to take a few more comments on health and then I'm

:31:59. > :32:03.going to move on to the economy. I want the young gentleman at the back

:32:04. > :32:08.with his hand up right there... And I want the gentleman with the beard.

:32:09. > :32:15.Right at the back lady with glasses. And the gentleman with the very

:32:16. > :32:21.distinguished white paper. Keep it con side. The original question was

:32:22. > :32:29.about sustainability and spending on temporary staff in the NHS. How is

:32:30. > :32:32.that sustainable and how can we move towards putting more staff into the

:32:33. > :32:42.NHS on a full-time basis rather than temporarily? Next. If Andrew RT

:32:43. > :32:46.Davies one and became our First Minister would he raised the money

:32:47. > :32:56.for the NHS by imposing contracts on our valuable doctors and workers?

:32:57. > :33:03.No. He's just said no. Leanne said and also Carwyn about having funding

:33:04. > :33:06.cut but what about the money we spend on free prescriptions to

:33:07. > :33:18.people who may not necessarily need them? APPLAUSE

:33:19. > :33:22.Thank you for making the point. You use health and education like a

:33:23. > :33:27.political football. We don't put these people -- we put these people

:33:28. > :33:30.in the assembly to give us a good NHS, why can't they work together

:33:31. > :33:37.and provide a service that is fit for purpose? APPLAUSE

:33:38. > :33:40.Thank you. I'm apologising because I think you realise we could do 90

:33:41. > :33:46.minutes on health easily but we've got lots of other big things to talk

:33:47. > :33:50.about. Where is Neil Woodcock? I know you are a steel worker. Thank

:33:51. > :33:55.you for coming along tonight. Clearly your industry has been right

:33:56. > :33:58.up there in the headlines not just in Wales and the UK but

:33:59. > :34:04.international. What is your question. On a personal note, I'm

:34:05. > :34:13.sad to see the panel have stopped wearing their save our steel badges.

:34:14. > :34:18.Obviously I'm obviously not as close to their heart as it is to mind.

:34:19. > :34:22.With that in mind what do the panel proposed to do to save the Welsh

:34:23. > :34:28.steel industry and to help the 750 workers losing their jobs this

:34:29. > :34:32.month? What can we do. We really are battling against the clock. Andrew,

:34:33. > :34:38.a focused answer please to that question. It's vital that two

:34:39. > :34:42.governments work together to secure the safety and security of the

:34:43. > :34:46.plants. We don't have a fire sale that end up seeing some of them

:34:47. > :34:52.shot. There is a great future for Welsh steel and UK steel. It is

:34:53. > :34:56.heartening to see the level of in gauge meant that is going on, the

:34:57. > :35:01.government stake that was committed last week of 25% plus loans being

:35:02. > :35:04.made available to successful commercial purchasers. It's got to

:35:05. > :35:08.come with a package that makes sure we have protection for the steel

:35:09. > :35:11.industry to grow and anti-dumping measures put in place. Business

:35:12. > :35:15.rates are tackled as well and the solid work being done on high energy

:35:16. > :35:20.prices continued to make sure the steel industry stays competitive.

:35:21. > :35:23.You did touch on the seven and 50 jobs that have been lost already

:35:24. > :35:28.irrespective of the closure that has been announced, it is vital we work

:35:29. > :35:32.to create a more dynamic economy in Wales. At the moment we have the

:35:33. > :35:36.lowest take-home pay in Wales, we've got to get small business rates

:35:37. > :35:41.ordered so businesses can grow and create quality jobs, we need to

:35:42. > :35:46.create training opportunities, and above all after 17 years of Labour

:35:47. > :35:53.neglect of the economy we've got to create an economy that makes money

:35:54. > :35:57.for the people. APPLAUSE Can I extend my sympathy to yourself

:35:58. > :36:01.and your work colleagues who are going through a really difficult

:36:02. > :36:03.time at the moment. I have some understanding of how difficult that

:36:04. > :36:08.is because my father was made redundant during the miners strike.

:36:09. > :36:13.He wasn't directly implied but it just goes to show how it has a much

:36:14. > :36:16.wider ripple effect. Many other businesses in the supply chain will

:36:17. > :36:23.be affected as well. It makes no sense to us to import steel from

:36:24. > :36:28.other countries to use in the infrastructure projects that this

:36:29. > :36:37.country needs. The green energy projects, they all require steel. We

:36:38. > :36:41.need to be using Welsh made steel in those infrastructure projects. Plaid

:36:42. > :36:44.Cymru has been calling for governments at both ends of the M4

:36:45. > :36:49.to be working together to do everything possible to save the

:36:50. > :36:54.industry, to consider all options including taking an equity stake or

:36:55. > :36:59.part nationalisation in the industry. I'm encouraged that both

:37:00. > :37:04.governments are prepared to consider looking at that. We were calling for

:37:05. > :37:08.this back in January, we did lose significant time in that period. But

:37:09. > :37:13.it is important now that everybody works together and pulls together

:37:14. > :37:16.and to do what we can to save this industry. If they could bail out the

:37:17. > :37:24.banks they should be able to bail out our steel industry. APPLAUSE

:37:25. > :37:28.Nathan. I'm glad to hear that Leanne is going to be voting to leave the

:37:29. > :37:36.EU on the 23rd of June. Quite frankly the reality is this is a

:37:37. > :37:41.world market, we do not control the tariffs on cheap dumped Chinese

:37:42. > :37:45.steel. That has been given away since 1975. You are talking about

:37:46. > :37:50.Welsh steel being used in projects all over Britain and Wales, that's

:37:51. > :37:59.against EU law, against procurement law. You cannot do that. Let's be

:38:00. > :38:03.honest about it. How can you say save steel, fatally. We'll lower the

:38:04. > :38:07.tariffs on energy, will make steel is we can sell it on the world

:38:08. > :38:14.market... Nathan knew on the referendum trail again. -- Nathan,

:38:15. > :38:20.you are on the referendum trail again. It's not about the ownership

:38:21. > :38:27.of Tata Steel. It's about selling the steel on the world markets.

:38:28. > :38:30.Let's be honest. I'm going to directly disagree because I think it

:38:31. > :38:35.really is about the ownership. For me the problem with Tata Steel is

:38:36. > :38:40.that they have absolutely no reason why they should care about the

:38:41. > :38:43.workforces and the communities. Their bottom line is always to do

:38:44. > :38:48.with a profit for their shareholders. When the market is so

:38:49. > :38:53.fixed they will pick up and leave and we have seen they are willing to

:38:54. > :38:56.do that. Potentially looking at nationalisation as a stopgap measure

:38:57. > :39:01.or potentially a final result in the way our government can support the

:39:02. > :39:04.steel industry because yes it is necessary for our renewable

:39:05. > :39:07.technologies and infrastructure. Potentially there are other models

:39:08. > :39:13.of ownership. In your community you could own that plant, you could be

:39:14. > :39:17.in charge of what your job is. The sustainability of that job relies on

:39:18. > :39:21.the fact that we can create renewable energy economy in Wales

:39:22. > :39:24.and we can use that steel. You can have ownership over that and there

:39:25. > :39:31.is a huge opportunity in Wales to build up renewable infrastructure

:39:32. > :39:42.and create many more jobs across our country. APPLAUSE

:39:43. > :39:50.What are you going to do, to save these jobs in the coming weeks and

:39:51. > :39:54.months if you're still in power? I grew up a few miles down the road

:39:55. > :39:57.from the steel works and I can't imagine Port Talbot without its

:39:58. > :40:03.steelworks. It's horrific and something I will fight hard to make

:40:04. > :40:08.sure doesn't happen. The second part of your question is what about the

:40:09. > :40:12.750 workers. We don't know how many of those will be retired or

:40:13. > :40:17.voluntary redundancy. We have put in an enterprise initiative to attract

:40:18. > :40:21.more enterprise into the area. One needs to be done. Firstly taking the

:40:22. > :40:25.pension liability out of the way, the government have indicated they

:40:26. > :40:28.will do that. We need to make sure energy prices drop because our

:40:29. > :40:32.energy prices are higher than Germany and Spain. We can't expect

:40:33. > :40:35.to produce goods if our energy prices are that high. We've been

:40:36. > :40:44.telling the UK Government for this past five years. The reality is that

:40:45. > :40:49.Germany and Spain have lower energy prices. We need to deal with that.

:40:50. > :40:53.Wasn't it the EU that voted against having tariffs, it was the UK

:40:54. > :40:59.Government, the UK called the problem not the EU. APPLAUSE

:41:00. > :41:03.The EU wanted to support the steel industry. The UK Government need to

:41:04. > :41:07.change their minds on this. For me this is about saving jobs. It's not

:41:08. > :41:12.about point-scoring. I'll work with the Tories on this because I know

:41:13. > :41:18.that saving jobs is more important. Let's make sure we stop building

:41:19. > :41:24.that infrastructure to make sure that our steel has a market, not

:41:25. > :41:33.just in the UK but in Europe as well. APPLAUSE

:41:34. > :41:36.I recently went to the plant in Port Tolbert to meet with the management

:41:37. > :41:39.and the union. What's really important to say is that there is a

:41:40. > :41:44.bright future for the blast furnaces. It can be turned into a

:41:45. > :41:48.profitable business once again and we can produce steel here. And we

:41:49. > :41:54.need to because it's a very foolish government that would not save its

:41:55. > :41:57.own steel industry. We need to produce R.N. Food, we need to

:41:58. > :42:03.produce our own energy and we need to produce our rain steel in a very

:42:04. > :42:06.uncertain world in which we live. 750 jobs have already gone and

:42:07. > :42:11.should there be a successful sale, and I hope there is, there's no

:42:12. > :42:17.guarantee there won't be more job losses to follow. What could we do?

:42:18. > :42:20.When the Newport steel plant went we created an economic regeneration

:42:21. > :42:25.company to help the businesses in that area to develop to take on

:42:26. > :42:30.those people. We could take business rates of plant and machinery. That

:42:31. > :42:31.would help Tata Steel but also help other manufacturers across Wales to

:42:32. > :42:42.create jobs in that sector. We need to build things in our

:42:43. > :42:45.country. Use that steel to build products that we can sell to the

:42:46. > :42:50.rest of the world. I must say, Nathan Gill, personally voted

:42:51. > :42:56.against anti-dumping measures in 2014. It is all very well to come

:42:57. > :43:01.here and talk about leaving the European Union. You are in the

:43:02. > :43:05.parliament, you had a chance, you voted against and even dumping

:43:06. > :43:11.measures. Shame on you! APPLAUSE

:43:12. > :43:19.Shame on you for not doing the research properly will stop was not

:43:20. > :43:26.an MEP, so I did not vote on it. Let's just be clear on this. They

:43:27. > :43:34.are all in Lala land, and that is the reality. If you cannot sell your

:43:35. > :43:40.steel... Why are you suddenly bothered about saving steel two or

:43:41. > :43:46.three weeks before an election. What about the other eight major steel

:43:47. > :44:00.refineries in Wales that you allowed to closed. Name three. Why are you

:44:01. > :44:03.and all of the rest... Comments. Concise, if we can. The gentleman

:44:04. > :44:10.here in the centre of the main body here. Then the gentleman here right

:44:11. > :44:14.at the front. And then the gentleman there, or the glasses. I'm looking

:44:15. > :44:21.for... Has got to be a woman who was to take part as well. We will start

:44:22. > :44:28.here. The former First Minister suggested making an enterprise sewn

:44:29. > :44:34.of Port Talbot. He tried to make and aerospace enterprise zone, and it

:44:35. > :44:39.has been an abject failure. It created about six new permanent jobs

:44:40. > :44:47.since it was invoked. By saying it is a waste of money and time? Where

:44:48. > :44:53.next? At the front, yes. Any member of that panel that who supports the

:44:54. > :44:57.continued European Union member ship cannot be honest about wanting to

:44:58. > :45:04.save our steel industry, that is a fact. Thank you. The gentle and back

:45:05. > :45:11.there. Just making the point of political opportunism, it is not

:45:12. > :45:15.about politics here. They're just jumping on the bandwagon. Tony Benn,

:45:16. > :45:21.in 1978, he posed by far the's steelworks. Labour haven't got an

:45:22. > :45:27.unblemished record on this. What are you saying on steel? What is the

:45:28. > :45:38.answer? Nothing is to do with politics. Carwyn Jones keeps

:45:39. > :45:47.shifting the blame. Thank you. You just said that he wanted parties to

:45:48. > :45:51.work together, Conservative and Labour. Yesterday, your own leader

:45:52. > :45:55.in England, arrived in Paul Tolbert. He did not tell the First Minister.

:45:56. > :46:04.He only heard about it on twitter. Is that right? I did invite him to

:46:05. > :46:10.come, but it is not fair -- but it is fair to say that I did not know

:46:11. > :46:13.about it. During question time, he said he could not guarantee the

:46:14. > :46:16.future of the steelworks unless all the parties work together, but he

:46:17. > :46:24.did not meet with the First Minister. Thank you. Where is Ian

:46:25. > :46:32.Williams? That is you're getting to bite at

:46:33. > :46:39.this! That is a bit of a cheat. Some of you mentioned this already. Your

:46:40. > :46:42.question. I'm concerned that out of the structure and transport links

:46:43. > :46:45.are letting us down. What would you do to make sure that Wales has the

:46:46. > :46:53.interest charge it needs to drive growth in the economy? On this one,

:46:54. > :46:56.I really do want you to speak for about 30 seconds of advice we will

:46:57. > :47:04.have no time for any further questions. Some of you have touched

:47:05. > :47:07.on if structure already. We want to build a national of the structure

:47:08. > :47:11.commission to have a plan for the whole of Wales, to make sure that

:47:12. > :47:19.spending is more even throughout the country. We want to stop the billion

:47:20. > :47:26.pound M4 project and to deal with the punt gesturing, we want to go

:47:27. > :47:29.for the blue route option that will free up millions of pounds to spend

:47:30. > :47:33.on in the structure in other parts of the country. It is very uneven,

:47:34. > :47:37.the way that every structure money is spent at the moment. We want to

:47:38. > :47:39.equalise that to make sure that all parts of Wales benefit from spending

:47:40. > :47:47.from the worst government. Thank you. It is fair to say that lots of

:47:48. > :47:54.the reporting on this has focused on Newport on the M4, which is

:47:55. > :47:57.important. In North Wales, there are issues of Edinburgh structure. What

:47:58. > :48:01.do you say question I'm glad that Leanne agrees with us that the blue

:48:02. > :48:06.Route is better to go for. Why are going to spend ?1 billion on

:48:07. > :48:11.structural funding in the South for me have huge problems in the North.

:48:12. > :48:17.Lots of you that I will know how horrendous some routes will be. The

:48:18. > :48:22.A470, where all of the passing lanes? It is easier and quicker to

:48:23. > :48:27.go into England and down and across than throughout beautiful country.

:48:28. > :48:31.So what is the answer and how much you spend on it? ?600 million is

:48:32. > :48:37.what we will have two spent on this and other if the church rejects, not

:48:38. > :48:42.just in the South. Your leaders said that immigration was this possible

:48:43. > :48:47.for congestion on the M4. It is pretty obvious, if you have got

:48:48. > :48:52.people coming into the country, as many as the size of Cardiff and

:48:53. > :48:57.Swansea together, they are adults who need cars and will use cars. It

:48:58. > :49:03.is obvious that out of the structure will not be able to cope. Thank you.

:49:04. > :49:08.If you adding millions of Vectra cars on the roads every year we will

:49:09. > :49:15.have infrastructure and traffic. And issue a building roads for that, how

:49:16. > :49:22.on earth are we going to manage? Alice. We need to establish a fund

:49:23. > :49:28.for every structure. We have a lot of money invested to pension funds

:49:29. > :49:36.in a public authorities, in local authorities and the wider public

:49:37. > :49:38.sector. At the moment, the money is invested in fossil fuel companies

:49:39. > :49:44.across the world, which we could take out and use for our fun for

:49:45. > :49:53.every structure in Wales. In Scotland, the whole figure is

:49:54. > :49:58.probably much larger than that. We could divest that can free invested

:49:59. > :50:03.in Wales, in its structure here would stop in our homes and energy

:50:04. > :50:07.in structure. There is a lot of money that we could be using it to

:50:08. > :50:15.build a better, more sustainable future for Wales. Leanne sedge

:50:16. > :50:19.wanted to build a commission, I want to build transport neck works. From

:50:20. > :50:24.my point of view, if you look at the M4, the problem with the blue Route

:50:25. > :50:28.is that it goes past hundreds of houses, it will affect many people.

:50:29. > :50:44.It is not the easy option that people think. We have had the

:50:45. > :50:52.investment in tunnels. There have been bypasses built, and we need to

:50:53. > :50:58.make sure we deal with those. We need to see a timetable for the

:50:59. > :51:12.selected the cage and of the rail lines. -- electrification of the

:51:13. > :51:16.rail lines. Wait a second, I must let Kirsty and Andrew and then you

:51:17. > :51:20.can speak. If we are to have a transport infrastructure for the

:51:21. > :51:27.whole of Wales, you don't blow the budget on one road in one section of

:51:28. > :51:30.Wales. We have to look at the fair distribution of resources. We also

:51:31. > :51:39.need to look at transport solutions both here in the South and East and

:51:40. > :51:46.also the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen line. We want to re-regular, use new

:51:47. > :51:52.powers we have two Reeva Kay-Taylor services so people in broad areas

:51:53. > :51:55.are not left stranded. There is a new type of infrastructure that we

:51:56. > :52:00.need to deliver on, and that is our digital input structure. People can

:52:01. > :52:07.not work at home, cannot develop businesses in other parts of Wales

:52:08. > :52:19.as they have two move into big cities.

:52:20. > :52:22.Thank you. Government has got to get on with the job. After 17 years of

:52:23. > :52:28.Labour in control, they have squandered opportunities. At the

:52:29. > :52:35.close of the last assembly, that a bar called which sold off public

:52:36. > :52:38.land which lost income. That is scandalous was that we cannot afford

:52:39. > :52:47.another five years of that. We have got to get the digital economy right

:52:48. > :52:51.because they could not compete in the 20th century economy, let alone

:52:52. > :52:54.the 21st-century economy. We need to make sure that the electrification

:52:55. > :52:59.of the rail routes is completed, and we need to make sure that it happens

:53:00. > :53:03.in the next funding round. That is why it will be so important to have

:53:04. > :53:05.a governorate in Cardiff Bay that can work at the Westminster

:53:06. > :53:13.government to deliver these projects will stop enough excuses, action is

:53:14. > :53:18.required. Time for a view on this. Infrastructure. Think about

:53:19. > :53:23.transport ever structure, can be broadband and things like that as

:53:24. > :53:28.well. The judgment at the back first, then the gentleman at the

:53:29. > :53:31.front here. Thank you. I am looking for... Too many guys wanting to

:53:32. > :53:38.speak. I want some ladies as well. At the back first. Thank you. In

:53:39. > :53:45.England, there is a Green bus fund for buses to be using different

:53:46. > :53:49.methods of fuel. Action is required, as you said. When will the

:53:50. > :53:57.Westminster governorate this site to investing Wales so bus operators can

:53:58. > :54:05.operate more Green buses for people to travel around Wales? Commute

:54:06. > :54:09.along to the middle there? What will you do to make it easier for those

:54:10. > :54:13.people with disabilities to travel on the bus. It can be so stressful,

:54:14. > :54:21.just stepping out of your front door, let alone getting on the bus.

:54:22. > :54:30.Where was the other one, sorry? The judgment here. You have to pay a

:54:31. > :54:36.toll at the Severn Bridge. When will you cancel that? That is a very

:54:37. > :54:40.practical point. What are the prospects of the Severn Bridge toll

:54:41. > :54:45.disappearing codger muck we have asked to control it, if we can

:54:46. > :54:50.control it, we will at least reduce it and then abolish it. As things

:54:51. > :54:55.stand at the moment, the tolls will be set by the Department of

:54:56. > :55:02.Transport and the money will be spent in England. We want a share of

:55:03. > :55:09.that. The question that access to public transport. Kirsty made the

:55:10. > :55:14.point, we will have the power to control buses. It is a border that

:55:15. > :55:17.the linkup with trains, not arriving five Slater, to make the whole

:55:18. > :55:23.experience the travel far less stressful. On a personal level,

:55:24. > :55:26.waiting for connections at Swansea station is not my favourite

:55:27. > :55:34.activity! I hope the point has been noted. Thank you for that. I should

:55:35. > :55:37.underline that our colleagues here, representing their own parties, they

:55:38. > :55:43.are not the only parties standing in this election. What we will do now,

:55:44. > :55:46.for a couple of minutes, so we are representing all of the voices,

:55:47. > :55:49.we're going to hear some contributions from the other parties

:55:50. > :55:54.were standing and getting their messages.

:55:55. > :55:59.We believe that the assembly government, after 17 years of

:56:00. > :56:04.continuous failure, should be abolished. At the cost of ?1.5

:56:05. > :56:13.million a day, to keep 60 70 murders in the Senate is too expensive. It

:56:14. > :56:17.is time that we close down the assembly and the 72 satellite

:56:18. > :56:20.offices that the front. The steel crisis underlines the need for us to

:56:21. > :56:26.have a Welsh government in Parliament with the powers and

:56:27. > :56:30.resources necessary in order to take vital industries into public

:56:31. > :56:36.ownership, defying EU rules if necessary and investing in what we

:56:37. > :56:39.need. More railway links, or homes, high-speed broadband to every school

:56:40. > :56:47.and local community and harnessing the enormous potential of our solar

:56:48. > :56:53.and tidal power in Wales. We are standing across Wales to represent

:56:54. > :56:58.the loonies in the Welsh assembly elections in 2016. It is a border to

:56:59. > :57:03.reduce costs. To do so, we will reduce the number of seats in the

:57:04. > :57:09.assembly from 60 two five. We're not your average political loonies. We

:57:10. > :57:13.don't think we are a hive mentality. We all use our own minds and we can

:57:14. > :57:17.guarantee that, should we win, we will not implement any of our

:57:18. > :57:22.manifesto policies. LAUGHTER

:57:23. > :57:27.Follow that! I have got to say, that winds the

:57:28. > :57:32.prize of the century award. I'm disappointed that none of my

:57:33. > :57:40.colleagues here, in the fashion stakes, you cannot compete.

:57:41. > :57:46.We just thought we would put that in at this point so we were reflecting

:57:47. > :57:50.other reviews as well not just the six parties with us now. We are

:57:51. > :57:55.going to move on to education. We've got about half are now left. Such an

:57:56. > :57:59.important issue and I've lost count of the number of interviews I've

:58:00. > :58:03.done on education standards, the challenges that education, not just

:58:04. > :58:16.schools but universities to. It's been such a hot topic. We'll have a

:58:17. > :58:20.question first and then some comments. How would you support the

:58:21. > :58:25.teachers and schools to deliver a first class education system for

:58:26. > :58:30.Wales? We're going to concentrate on school 's first and then move on to

:58:31. > :58:35.higher education. Where are we on this one? Nathan first. One size

:58:36. > :58:39.doesn't fit all. I've got five children and I'm fully aware of

:58:40. > :58:43.this. What we need is an education system that is bespoke to children

:58:44. > :58:47.and their individual needs. We needed to be aspirational for the

:58:48. > :58:51.child. We want children to be able, when they get into their classes, to

:58:52. > :58:57.being gauged because they are enjoying learning and they feel it

:58:58. > :59:03.has a relevance to their future. Not everybody is cut out to go to

:59:04. > :59:07.university. We need people to work in industry, in manufacturing,

:59:08. > :59:13.hands-on skills. We propose bringing back grammar schools to Wales but

:59:14. > :59:16.not as these people will have you believe 11 plus, that's it you're

:59:17. > :59:20.categorised, but throughout the second area education period of

:59:21. > :59:24.their lives they can continue to be tested and decide whether or not

:59:25. > :59:31.they want to be more vocational or more academic. APPLAUSE

:59:32. > :59:34.I'm just looking at some of the policy areas, one of the

:59:35. > :59:38.eye-catching policies I noticed was the possibility of raising the

:59:39. > :59:44.school starting age, maybe you can address that in your response. It

:59:45. > :59:48.was just opting the age at which children start formal education. We

:59:49. > :59:51.believe that education should be just about finding a career,

:59:52. > :59:56.shouldn't just be about getting on a treadmill. It should be about

:59:57. > :00:00.inspiring children, it should be about making it fun to learn things,

:00:01. > :00:06.to gain knowledge, and to really inspire them to want to learn more.

:00:07. > :00:09.It is a recognition that there is lots of research that recognises

:00:10. > :00:14.that education focused on player earlier in life is very good at

:00:15. > :00:18.bringing that wealth of knowledge and your children very early on. I

:00:19. > :00:22.think in terms of addressing the question put forward, how do we

:00:23. > :00:25.support teachers and schools to deliver a first class education

:00:26. > :00:29.system in Wales. I think the first thing we need to do is focus on the

:00:30. > :00:34.children and those teachers. To be able to deliver a good education

:00:35. > :00:38.system that those children, we need to support those teachers. We also

:00:39. > :00:42.need to make sure there are still schools in our communities for the

:00:43. > :00:45.children to attend. There are plenty of schools around Wales that are

:00:46. > :00:49.closing and those schools are actually at the heart of those

:00:50. > :00:56.communities. Once the school closes that unity fall apart. Regardless of

:00:57. > :01:01.debates about numbers or what is viable, you think they should be

:01:02. > :01:05.kept as units. We need to protect our rural schools. They are

:01:06. > :01:08.important to those communities. Bringing it into supporting our

:01:09. > :01:12.teachers, when teachers went on strike last week in Wales they were

:01:13. > :01:15.not going on strike because they wanted higher pay or different

:01:16. > :01:18.pensions. They were going on strike because they didn't feel they could

:01:19. > :01:24.deliver for the children and because they felt one of the new pressures

:01:25. > :01:27.being put on children in rural areas are additionally long bus journeys

:01:28. > :01:33.to school because of rural school. What we would do is keep those

:01:34. > :01:39.schools open, make sure we reduce our teacher workload, make sure we

:01:40. > :01:42.provide effective professional training for teachers throughout

:01:43. > :01:45.their careers and aim to reduce class sizes. These are all things

:01:46. > :01:53.teachers need to be able to provide a good education for our children in

:01:54. > :01:58.Wales. APPLAUSE You made quite a few points. Can I

:01:59. > :02:03.ask you to respond, I picked up a quote from the Chief Inspector of

:02:04. > :02:06.education and training in Wales "Once again this year there is a

:02:07. > :02:10.marked contrast between the quality of teaching and learning

:02:11. > :02:15.particularly in our best education providers and in the weakest. This

:02:16. > :02:18.is not due prowler Malika to socioeconomic factors, some of our

:02:19. > :02:24.best providers are in relatively deprived areas, the implication

:02:25. > :02:29.being that this is about standards. And monitoring standards regardless

:02:30. > :02:32.of socioeconomic factors. It is about leadership. When there is weak

:02:33. > :02:38.leadership the school doesn't function. But I would like to do

:02:39. > :02:42.over the next five years, once we've got teachers paying conditions

:02:43. > :02:45.devolved, start on an overall package the teachers. The Scots do

:02:46. > :02:53.this and we need to make sure we do this in Wales. I am the son of two

:02:54. > :02:57.teachers. They talk to me about teaching and teaching as a

:02:58. > :03:01.profession. Also we need to make sure teachers are teaching in

:03:02. > :03:04.buildings that are fit for purpose. One of the measures for me in the

:03:05. > :03:10.education system is making sure the richest areas and the poorer areas,

:03:11. > :03:13.there is no difference between them. We provided money and support for

:03:14. > :03:16.our worst performing schools to bring them up to where they should

:03:17. > :03:21.be and we've seen startling results across the whole of Wales. That is

:03:22. > :03:25.hugely important. Also important, where children get the opportunity

:03:26. > :03:32.for a good education, they are also able to carry on in FP college and

:03:33. > :03:35.university. I've spoken to students in the past few weeks and they are

:03:36. > :03:43.petrified at the idea their funding might be cut... Let's stick with

:03:44. > :03:47.schools for the moment. Leadership is absolutely crucial which is why

:03:48. > :03:49.it is scandalous that Labour's education minister admitted the

:03:50. > :03:54.government had taken their eye off the ball when it came to education.

:03:55. > :03:58.We have listened to parents concerns which is why we will cut class

:03:59. > :04:03.sizes, that teachers have the time to teach every child to the best of

:04:04. > :04:08.their ability. Over the last five years my party has prioritised in

:04:09. > :04:13.everybody's negotiation education spending. That's why we were able to

:04:14. > :04:21.invest in an additional ?280 million into the education of our poorest

:04:22. > :04:24.Georgian buyer the pupil premium. -- poorest children. Every child

:04:25. > :04:27.deserves a fair start in life and if we are to make our economy is

:04:28. > :04:34.successful we need well qualified children leaving our schools. If a

:04:35. > :04:38.teacher has got 30, 32, 33 children in their class, it is nigh on

:04:39. > :04:47.impossible for the teacher to give those children the individual

:04:48. > :04:55.attention they need. APPLAUSE The target class size is what? Down

:04:56. > :04:59.to 25 starting with infants first. It is the political leadership and

:05:00. > :05:06.lack of political leadership that has put us where we are. It was

:05:07. > :05:09.Kirsty 's education minister who apologised, it was the First

:05:10. > :05:14.Minister who said they had taken their eye off the ball. What we've

:05:15. > :05:17.got to do with education in my view and my party's Cuba's fund schools

:05:18. > :05:23.to Rex is the opportunity to spend as much about money as possible in

:05:24. > :05:26.the classroom. Make sure that schools Day open, offer them the

:05:27. > :05:31.opportunity to run their own affairs so they know what is best for their

:05:32. > :05:35.community. If a local schools shots, part of that community dies. Making

:05:36. > :05:39.sure there is parity to support students with vocational and

:05:40. > :05:42.academic coursework. Alternately we need people with vocational

:05:43. > :05:46.qualifications as well as academic qualifications of we are going to

:05:47. > :05:55.have an economy fit the 21st-century and doesn't leave our students

:05:56. > :05:59.behind. APPLAUSE In international comparisons Welsh

:06:00. > :06:04.schoolchildren perform worse than children in countries like Estonia,

:06:05. > :06:10.Vietnam's, Ireland. I think that's a scandal considering how well we used

:06:11. > :06:16.to perform in the past. For me, staff are the key to this. We rely

:06:17. > :06:22.upon our teachers to create the next generation of doctors, engineers,

:06:23. > :06:27.scientists. So we must invest in them and encourage them and enable

:06:28. > :06:34.them to be excellent. Plaid Cymru will create a cradle to career

:06:35. > :06:39.education service and we have identified a number of policies to

:06:40. > :06:43.do that. One, investment in early years education. Two, we want to

:06:44. > :06:46.create a world-class teaching profession and reward them

:06:47. > :06:52.accordingly. Thirdly, we want to guarantee a job or a training place

:06:53. > :06:58.everyone under 25 and has been out of work for more than four months.

:06:59. > :07:02.Create more apprenticeship places and a debt write-off scheme for

:07:03. > :07:18.graduates. APPLAUSE Any teachers? I've heard from you

:07:19. > :07:23.once. I'll come to this lady first. Pupils are funded via a pupil

:07:24. > :07:29.deprivation grant. It's right that they should be. The pupils that are

:07:30. > :07:34.getting free school meals should be funded. But the grant doesn't take

:07:35. > :07:42.any account the tall of the working poor. What do the panel think about

:07:43. > :07:49.the funding? What would your proposal be? I think there is such a

:07:50. > :07:56.great variation across the counties in Wales which is paid to the

:07:57. > :08:01.unfair. There is a lack of consistency. Absolutely, the way it

:08:02. > :08:09.is calculated is a mystery. Any other teachers? Yes,? I would like

:08:10. > :08:15.to address the Ukip gentleman and say that it would be wonderful to

:08:16. > :08:24.put to bed the idea of grammar schools. APPLAUSE

:08:25. > :08:32.It saps the litany ridiculous, children are judged at the age of 11

:08:33. > :08:37.-- it's absolutely ridiculous. It means that boys and girls are judged

:08:38. > :08:42.equally. If you know anything about child's development you know that at

:08:43. > :08:47.the age of 11 boys are behind girls. Therefore all of the figures have to

:08:48. > :08:52.be mass arched in order to create the results of a 50-50 split. I'm

:08:53. > :09:01.sorry but its simple maths and simple knowledge of children. We

:09:02. > :09:07.would have entrance exams at 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16. Children are always

:09:08. > :09:31.being tested and examined, always. Why are we behind Estonia? It

:09:32. > :09:35.doesn't work. You've been doing it for 17 years and it hasn't worked.

:09:36. > :09:39.APPLAUSE In England where they still have

:09:40. > :09:44.grammar schools, they are the ones that parents want their children to

:09:45. > :09:49.go to. People are voting with their feet. Is there a case for saying

:09:50. > :09:54.that we've got a plan where all schools to come academies?

:09:55. > :09:59.Originally that was a Labour idea. Is that a model that would apply to

:10:00. > :10:02.Wales? It is suitable for England but our model is about offering the

:10:03. > :10:07.opportunity physical is to be funded directly from the Welsh government.

:10:08. > :10:11.At the moment 81% is delegated out of County Hall. In England the

:10:12. > :10:16.averages 90%. That would free up ?150 million. The criteria would be

:10:17. > :10:19.the school would have to be able to teach a national curriculum. If it

:10:20. > :10:23.could meet that requirement, the school could go to the Welsh

:10:24. > :10:27.government, apply via a business plan and the governors, the parents

:10:28. > :10:32.and the pupils would have a stake in that school. But his community

:10:33. > :10:34.participation and education and ending Labour's decline of 17 years.

:10:35. > :10:38.APPLAUSE I'm interested in why you think the

:10:39. > :10:46.academies model wouldn't be suitable in Wales, what is it about the

:10:47. > :10:50.academies model? You bring solutions to the table that right for Wales.

:10:51. > :10:53.For my money I believe that offering the money direct to schools so you

:10:54. > :10:57.are not forcing schools to go down that route actually gives you the

:10:58. > :11:02.balance in the education system that is appropriate for Wales. One in ten

:11:03. > :11:07.kids leave primary school unable to read in Wales, that is Labour's

:11:08. > :11:14.legacy. You really going to give them another five-year? APPLAUSE

:11:15. > :11:17.Direct funding of schools is the beginning of the academisation

:11:18. > :11:21.process. The experience in England is that it hasn't led to increased

:11:22. > :11:28.spending in the classroom. It has led to a boom of business managers

:11:29. > :11:31.who handle these budgets and it has led to lots more civil servants in

:11:32. > :11:36.the Department for Education. The reason why people in England want to

:11:37. > :11:40.stop the academisation programmes as it is a direct threat to schools. We

:11:41. > :11:44.need to introduce a law to have a presumption against closure, that is

:11:45. > :11:51.the way you protect schools. If you direct funding you make it difficult

:11:52. > :11:55.to keep them open. The local authority cannot afford provisions

:11:56. > :11:59.of special educational needs either. APPLAUSE

:12:00. > :12:03.90% of the education budget is delegated straight to the school in

:12:04. > :12:11.England, in Wales it is 81%. There is 9% last administration. That is

:12:12. > :12:16.school transport and special educational needs.

:12:17. > :12:25.It is all very well and good giving money directed to schools, but there

:12:26. > :12:31.are transport costs and catering contracts as well. This week and

:12:32. > :12:35.last week, why are you going to get rid of the education maintenance

:12:36. > :12:43.allowance that allows so many people from poorer backgrounds to go to

:12:44. > :12:49.college? That the moment, there is no support for post-16 education.

:12:50. > :12:57.Thank you. We are fighting the clock. Where is our next question

:12:58. > :13:03.ask a question muck you have the last question. What changes would

:13:04. > :13:07.you make to the support available for students to study at university?

:13:08. > :13:14.You were a student where? In Coventry. And you are studying?

:13:15. > :13:21.Geography. I'm about to go into my final year. What is your thought

:13:22. > :13:25.about support. What could be changed? I am very lucky that I have

:13:26. > :13:29.had a lot of support with tuition and living costs, but there needs to

:13:30. > :13:35.be more focus on the living costs and support for that because some of

:13:36. > :13:38.the means tested loans and grants to not cover some people's

:13:39. > :13:48.accommodation. There needs to be more focus on that. Where are we

:13:49. > :13:51.starting? Alice. What we propose in Wales is to look at the tuition

:13:52. > :13:55.fees, we offer a free education for Welsh students who study in Wales

:13:56. > :14:01.because we do believe that education should be free for whole of life.

:14:02. > :14:05.Anyone who wants to learn should have the ability to do so. We don't

:14:06. > :14:09.have the ability to fund people who study in England, so we will have

:14:10. > :14:16.that available for students who will study in Wales and those whose

:14:17. > :14:19.courses are not available in Wales. I agree, it is not just about the

:14:20. > :14:24.tuition fees, it is about the funding of living costs as well. We

:14:25. > :14:27.need to look at what the living costs are, where people are going to

:14:28. > :14:32.study, and taking it from that perspective in terms of what their

:14:33. > :14:35.needs are and take into consideration the needs because we

:14:36. > :14:40.are currently not doing that. You will never pay ?9,000 a year in

:14:41. > :14:44.fees. We will look after her students, as we have done for the

:14:45. > :14:47.last five years. The Lib Dems broke a promise, saying they would never

:14:48. > :14:52.charge students for their fees. That will always be the case for us as a

:14:53. > :14:56.party because we believe it is important to invest in education.

:14:57. > :15:02.Another thing we will never do is say to students, either you study in

:15:03. > :15:06.Wales we come back in five years or we will fine you and make you pay

:15:07. > :15:10.for your studies. We believe young people deserve opportunities where

:15:11. > :15:21.ever they go, whether they work and whether the saddle. -- where ever

:15:22. > :15:28.the saddle. -- settle. A lot of universities are saying that your

:15:29. > :15:36.policies are not sustainable and you are sticking to these for reasons

:15:37. > :15:40.they do not understand. Let them compete for Welsh students and say,

:15:41. > :15:43.come to Wales because we have a better offer of for you in terms of

:15:44. > :15:47.education. There is the challenge, let them write about. Is that a

:15:48. > :15:52.level playing field? Of course it is. We want our students to get

:15:53. > :15:55.experience outside of Wales, we want some to come home, obviously, and

:15:56. > :16:01.some will, they will bring the experience with them. It is a board

:16:02. > :16:05.that we don't say, you can only study in Wales, even if you courses

:16:06. > :16:14.not available in Wales. All we will charge you. That will never happen.

:16:15. > :16:19.The First Minister is consistently misrepresenting Plaid Cymru's

:16:20. > :16:25.position on this. You know that our position is not that. Explain it to

:16:26. > :16:35.us. I will explain it to you. We're not interned. -- in turn. I listened

:16:36. > :16:41.very carefully to what the First Minister said that. He said students

:16:42. > :16:44.won't pay ?9,000 in tuition fees under Labour. We did not give a

:16:45. > :16:50.figure of exactly how much they've would pay. They have been careful

:16:51. > :16:59.not to state a figure. Who invented tuition fees? It was Labour. Plaid

:17:00. > :17:05.Cymru's policy is that we will pay off ?6,000 out of the ?9,000 for

:17:06. > :17:09.every year a student comes back to work in Wales and pays into the

:17:10. > :17:14.Welsh tax part because, at the moment, we are investing in

:17:15. > :17:18.students' education and they are leaving and we are inadvertently

:17:19. > :17:25.funding universities in other countries when Welsh universities

:17:26. > :17:28.need that money. There are plenty of students coming from England to

:17:29. > :17:32.provide funds for the universities in Wales. You are effectively saying

:17:33. > :17:40.you will charge people who come back to Wales. Where are the jobs for

:17:41. > :17:43.them to come back to? You are happy to continue with the situation where

:17:44. > :17:48.Welsh taxpayers' money is being spent on English universities and

:17:49. > :17:53.Welsh qualified students are leaving and have no way of coming back and

:17:54. > :18:01.contributing to our economy here? We need the best brains in this country

:18:02. > :18:04.to help us build this country up. It is a wide world out there. I want as

:18:05. > :18:16.tuners that the best experience possible. Want to come back, ... The

:18:17. > :18:21.last time Plaid Cymru were in government, they did not do a good

:18:22. > :18:27.job of providing quality jobs for people to come back to. Where is

:18:28. > :18:36.your evidence? You have had four years of economic portfolio. It was

:18:37. > :18:41.your party! The critical point about tuition fees, and I did not go to

:18:42. > :18:45.university so I did not have a free education, I went out and worked on

:18:46. > :18:51.the streets of Cardiff, selling produce from the farm. What we have

:18:52. > :18:55.got to do his help with living costs so people can get into university.

:18:56. > :18:59.My body has brought forward passes that will put ?400 billion into

:19:00. > :19:13.living costs over the five years, which will pay from the wild. --

:19:14. > :19:17.will be paid from day one. Further education colleges have been robbed

:19:18. > :19:22.to pay for higher education establishments. That is a

:19:23. > :19:28.significant area of debate, the allocation of resources. The truth

:19:29. > :19:32.is, nobler to party has a great record on Jewish and fees. They were

:19:33. > :19:36.introduced by Labour, they were raised when Plaid Cymru was in

:19:37. > :19:39.power, and my party paid the biggest price for not being able to keep its

:19:40. > :19:44.promise in London on Jewish and fees. That is why it is crucial for

:19:45. > :19:52.my party that we have learned these lessons. -- Jewish and fees.

:19:53. > :19:57.We will give all students a grant to help the cost of living. We will

:19:58. > :20:04.ring-fence the rest of their higher education budget so we will be

:20:05. > :20:07.giving money to out this edition is in Wales. We need great Welsh

:20:08. > :20:12.universities, and they are being starved of resources at the moment.

:20:13. > :20:20.What Labour have done is said up the commission that conveniently will

:20:21. > :20:23.report after the election, and the First Minister says he will respond

:20:24. > :20:28.to that. It is the oldest trick in the book. Learn the lessons of my

:20:29. > :20:31.party, be upfront, be straight and be sure that you can afford what you

:20:32. > :20:37.are promising. I have learned that lesson the hard way. That is why we

:20:38. > :20:40.will spend money on supporting students with ?2500 but you also

:20:41. > :20:46.need to invest that in is situations. If we will be doing our

:20:47. > :20:55.higher education service a disservice and you cannot do both.

:20:56. > :21:01.Nagin. -- Nathan. I don't think you have learned from promising to do

:21:02. > :21:09.things you cannot do. You said you will reduce class sizes. We do not

:21:10. > :21:21.know how me people will be arriving from week to week. We will provide

:21:22. > :21:26.free science, technology, English mathematics and medicine tuition. We

:21:27. > :21:32.will replace the grant with a loan for those who go to England and

:21:33. > :21:38.learn. Will you allow for students to come to Wales? I had plenty of

:21:39. > :21:43.friends who are Chinese and from all over the world. Please do try and

:21:44. > :21:46.paint us as being racist. For students watching, what happens to

:21:47. > :21:55.Jewish and fees under the Ukip Lassie? To be clear. If you study

:21:56. > :21:58.one of the STEM subjects, you will not have to pay. If you study in

:21:59. > :22:02.England, you have to repay that through a loan system. We will

:22:03. > :22:09.provide a bursary for those students who want to study anywhere in the

:22:10. > :22:16.world. Thank you. Some comments. The far corner, there is a young lady

:22:17. > :22:19.there. What will you say? There is a lot of mention of cutting tuition

:22:20. > :22:24.fees and taking a budget of the Jewish and feed that students need

:22:25. > :22:30.to pay act. This is messy for undergraduate fees. Will you be

:22:31. > :22:38.offering support for students who want to study postgraduate Masters

:22:39. > :22:45.fees? In the front here, a young chap here. This is more the step

:22:46. > :22:54.back to secondary education, the LGBT committee is one of the most

:22:55. > :23:03.disconnected against. Do you think you need to change policies to grab

:23:04. > :23:14.that? Right at the back. Carwyn Jones always mentioned Welsh

:23:15. > :23:17.students, he does not mention the other students who can come to Wales

:23:18. > :23:27.and be subsidised by the Welsh government. If you come from any

:23:28. > :23:29.country in the common market, 31 countries, any of their students can

:23:30. > :23:33.come to this country and have the same grant that Welsh Juden scat.

:23:34. > :23:39.That includes Turkey, Norway and Switzerland. It costs the Welsh

:23:40. > :23:49.economy many mill is about. As a parent of a child on the

:23:50. > :23:55.autistic spectrum, I know that costs for children, and as they go into

:23:56. > :23:59.further education, increase, because of the support they need. What

:24:00. > :24:04.funding will you give to children with additional learning needs?

:24:05. > :24:07.Thank you so much for those points. We will not be able to have an

:24:08. > :24:13.answer. The gentleman in the glasses. The whole debate feels that

:24:14. > :24:20.it is from a different generation, we talking about past education and

:24:21. > :24:24.pass on the structure. We will look to set a vision for the future, not

:24:25. > :24:31.argue these same debates over and over. Thank you. Very good. Thank

:24:32. > :24:37.you for mining is that we are ahead. Our time is up and out of is at an

:24:38. > :24:43.end. Thanks to our politicians and the audience here. There will be a

:24:44. > :24:51.special programme on BBC Two Wales, starting now. And a phone in BBC

:24:52. > :24:55.Radio Wales. You can also continue to have your say on social media,

:24:56. > :25:01.the hash tag is #BBCWalesDebate. A full list of candidates is available

:25:02. > :25:06.on the BBC website. From Cardiff, thank you for watching. Enjoy the

:25:07. > :25:08.rest of the campaign. Have a very good night.

:25:09. > :25:43.APPLAUSE Good evening. Another chilly day

:25:44. > :25:46.across-the-board with some sunshine and heavy, wintry showers. They will

:25:47. > :25:51.rumble on in the next few hours in the East of England before fading

:25:52. > :25:52.away. Someone showers coming into the