:00:00. > :00:29.Now on BBC News, EU Referendum - Scotland Decides.
:00:30. > :00:35.Hello, good evening and welcome to a BBC Scotland special debate on the
:00:36. > :00:39.EU referendum. Debating before our audience here in Glasgow this
:00:40. > :00:43.evening, leading in and out campaigners. For tabby cats leave,
:00:44. > :00:50.the former Conservative Scottish Secretary Lord Forsyth. For Remain,
:00:51. > :00:53.the Justice and Home Secretary Representative. For Leave the former
:00:54. > :00:58.Scottish National Party deputy leader. And for Remain, the leader
:00:59. > :01:03.of the Scottish Labour Party kid, Kasia Dugdale.
:01:04. > :01:11.So, our panellists will be taking questions from the audience, which
:01:12. > :01:15.includes committed Leave and Remain supporters in equal numbers and some
:01:16. > :01:20.undecided voters as well. Let's go straight to our first question,
:01:21. > :01:25.which comes from Fraser Knox. Good evening, panel. How large a
:01:26. > :01:35.shop with the Brexit Biju Age UK economy? -- shock -- would be Brexit
:01:36. > :01:39.Biju a UK economy? It would be very serious and we would see the results
:01:40. > :01:44.as the markets open on Friday. I'm not here to stay you, I want to make
:01:45. > :01:48.a positive case for why we are better off in the European Union.
:01:49. > :01:51.It's good to create jobs to sustain the economy we have and create
:01:52. > :01:55.opportunities for young people. There's no question it has been good
:01:56. > :01:59.for workers' rights. We can now make sure we don't compete with our
:02:00. > :02:03.neighbours on holiday lead and the amount of money we earn in a day and
:02:04. > :02:08.maternity and paternity rights and that's because we are part of the EU
:02:09. > :02:12.and I hope it continues. Lord Forsyth. I don't like the word shock
:02:13. > :02:17.and there could be some short-term uncertainty. Broadly I'm with Lord
:02:18. > :02:20.Rose who is the leader of the Remain campaign in the view that it
:02:21. > :02:24.wouldn't make much difference and matters would settle down after a
:02:25. > :02:27.period of time. Despite the scaremongering that's been going on,
:02:28. > :02:32.if you look at the markets today the pound is broadly where it was before
:02:33. > :02:36.the referendum was announced and the markets... The stock market went up
:02:37. > :02:40.this morning. I didn't think that was the way to look at it anyway.
:02:41. > :02:45.What we're talking about here is whether or not we restored to our
:02:46. > :02:49.parliamentary democracy the ability to take decisions and I believe in
:02:50. > :02:53.Britain and I believe that given the opportunity to decide our own
:02:54. > :02:54.destiny we will prosper in the long-term and that's how we should
:02:55. > :03:05.look at it. George Osborne has produced Treasury
:03:06. > :03:11.analysis which he says would cost 43,000 Scottish jobs within two
:03:12. > :03:17.years of a Brexit. He has talked of having to have an emergency budget
:03:18. > :03:22.to plug a ?30 million black hole in UK finances. Do you buy those
:03:23. > :03:26.figures? I think Scotland are a bit sick of this campaigning.
:03:27. > :03:31.Scaremongering and raising fears. What is true is that membership of
:03:32. > :03:37.the EU has brought significant benefits to the Scottish and British
:03:38. > :03:44.economies. For example, investment of regions and Nations in the UK,
:03:45. > :03:49.Scotland sees the most from the EU, to the tune of ?16 billion per
:03:50. > :03:54.annum. Our exports to the EU are worth ?2000 per head of everybody in
:03:55. > :04:01.this country, and they support over 3000 jobs. The chancellor is on the
:04:02. > :04:06.same side of the debate as you on this occasion. When he says that
:04:07. > :04:10.43,000 Scottish jobs would go within two years, I use saying he is
:04:11. > :04:16.scaremongering or do you think those figures are accurate? At the moment,
:04:17. > :04:20.we are part of a free market we have access to 500 million other
:04:21. > :04:24.consumers, that has brought massive benefits to the Scottish economy. If
:04:25. > :04:28.we withdraw from that free market, we will have no more access to
:04:29. > :04:36.trading with that free market which will of course have an impact on
:04:37. > :04:40.jobs and investment. 43,002 years? I am not willing or able to put a
:04:41. > :04:50.figure on it. But if we withdraw on the free market, it will affect jobs
:04:51. > :04:57.and investments. There will be an agreement reached between the EU and
:04:58. > :05:08.UK out of the EU, and I'll tell you why. It is because of trade figures.
:05:09. > :05:16.The European 27 export to us about ?290 billion worth of goods and
:05:17. > :05:22.services per year. We export to them about 228,000 a year. It is in the
:05:23. > :05:28.interests of both sides. You would think trade was only one way, the
:05:29. > :05:33.way they had put it. But with access to that market for the UK, there are
:05:34. > :05:40.lots of jobs tied up in the EU about access to the market. Plus the fact,
:05:41. > :05:48.if we vote Brexit on Saturday, we do not leave the European Union on
:05:49. > :05:54.Friday. The UK has to write a formal letter to the commission saying that
:05:55. > :05:59.we wish to withdraw. That is under article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.
:06:00. > :06:03.They then have to be negotiations over a two year period where we are
:06:04. > :06:08.still members of the EU in that market. If you think of those
:06:09. > :06:15.figures and the millions of jobs on both sides, common sense will
:06:16. > :06:22.prevail. There will be a free trade agreement. Common sense tells you
:06:23. > :06:30.that will be the case. The shock will not have come. Bringing in our
:06:31. > :06:36.audience, and perhaps when it comes back to the question on this. Mr
:06:37. > :06:43.Knox, what do you think. I think we need to vote to leave and take back
:06:44. > :06:47.control. I think the EU proved itself to be a broken down the
:06:48. > :06:52.institution. I think it is best we leave on our own terms and negotiate
:06:53. > :06:59.those with the EU rather than facing ages -- ages orderly exit. Do you
:07:00. > :07:05.think that shock will be something we have to absorb or do you think
:07:06. > :07:09.there is scaremongering going on? I think there will be a short-term
:07:10. > :07:14.period of market volatility and turbulence, but once the markets get
:07:15. > :07:17.their heads around the FAQ we will be leaving, the markets will
:07:18. > :07:26.quickly recover. And this gentleman? How can you be so certain? What
:07:27. > :07:31.happens if other countries rebel against us because we have left is
:07:32. > :07:34.green countries are not going to rebel. But there could be countries
:07:35. > :07:43.that rebel against us because we have left. You can't be 100% sure,
:07:44. > :07:49.it's does not... I'm not saying we would be 100% sure. What I am saying
:07:50. > :07:55.is that if you look at the facts on the ground of trade and the jobs
:07:56. > :08:01.involved in Europe, coming to us, and our job is going to them, common
:08:02. > :08:05.sense will prevail. It would be lunacy on their part to put trade
:08:06. > :08:12.barriers up against us, because we could put them against them, and
:08:13. > :08:16.that serves nobody 's purpose. I am assuming that all the hysteria from
:08:17. > :08:22.Angela Merkel and company will die down. There is no way the German
:08:23. > :08:28.trade unions, whose members are reliant on selling to Al market,
:08:29. > :08:35.would allow a European politician to act in a stupid way in reference to
:08:36. > :08:41.a free trade agreement between us and the EU. I cannot guarantee 100%
:08:42. > :08:48.that the politicians will come to their senses, but the facts on the
:08:49. > :08:52.ground indicate that they will. Jim is right that there would probably
:08:53. > :08:57.be some sort of an agreement, what it is the terms of that that matter.
:08:58. > :09:01.Think of what the Norwegian Prime Minister told us last week. She said
:09:02. > :09:05.if the British leave the EU, they wouldn't like it, because in order
:09:06. > :09:11.to have free trade with the EU, Norway have to agree to passport was
:09:12. > :09:21.ordered checks in the Schengen area and to the free movement of people.
:09:22. > :09:29.The Norwegian Prime Minister described herself as being like a
:09:30. > :09:34.lobbying organisation in Brussels. -- passport-less border checks. She
:09:35. > :09:38.described it as such. The difficulty is that we don't know what the terms
:09:39. > :09:43.of the agreement would be. Those who want to leave the EU often cite
:09:44. > :09:48.migration and the free movement of workers as the main reason they want
:09:49. > :09:52.to leave. Outside of that, if you want to leave the EU, you would have
:09:53. > :09:57.to agree to the free movement of workers as Switzerland have had to
:09:58. > :10:04.do. You are shaking your head at that? There are many countries who
:10:05. > :10:09.have free trade with the EU who don't have free movement. Such as
:10:10. > :10:19.Turkey all Lichtenstein. We are the fifth largest economy in the world.
:10:20. > :10:23.They sell ?62 billion worth of product to us. Anybody who thinks
:10:24. > :10:27.that with the German and French elections coming up, if we vote to
:10:28. > :10:34.leave, Angela Merkel's office is not going to be filled with Fox wagon
:10:35. > :10:42.and other manufacturers saying, we sell millions of cars to Britain
:10:43. > :10:46.every year, please make sure this trade is maintained. It is simple
:10:47. > :10:51.scaremongering. You don't need to be in the EU to sell goods and services
:10:52. > :10:55.to Europe. America does that -- Volkswagon. Those countries not in
:10:56. > :10:59.the EU have been far better at increasing their exports than we
:11:00. > :11:07.have as members of. I want to hear some more from our audience. Our
:11:08. > :11:12.economy is the fifth-largest in the world, but that weighs heavily on
:11:13. > :11:18.trade. The has said it could fall as much as 10%. How will the impact
:11:19. > :11:24.trade? If it fell in value, that would help our exporters and
:11:25. > :11:28.enormously. It would make imports more expensive, making it easy for
:11:29. > :11:34.our own organisations and businesses to thrive and prosper. The single
:11:35. > :11:40.market... The use of the word market is misleading. It is a single
:11:41. > :11:47.regulatory zone. Anybody can sell to the single market, the Chinese,
:11:48. > :11:56.Indians and others do so. Tariffs will be applied. Sorry, I want to
:11:57. > :12:01.hear from the audience. I am still undecided, but this is my dilemma.
:12:02. > :12:07.Do the leave campaigners think that economic certainty is worth
:12:08. > :12:14.sacrificing our sovereignty for? I think we benefit from having workers
:12:15. > :12:18.rights, the opportunities that our young people get from being a part
:12:19. > :12:22.of Europe. But talking about these questions, look at what some of the
:12:23. > :12:31.business leaders and the Scottish whiskey industry are saying. Hang on
:12:32. > :12:36.a second, the microphone... The economy is based on people who
:12:37. > :12:41.generate the wealth. Scottish businesses have said that it is
:12:42. > :12:46.hugely important to be part of the UK and the EU, because they can
:12:47. > :12:53.trade with 28 nations with one set of regulations, and it is also an
:12:54. > :12:57.amazing platform for Scottish whiskey to get to China and America.
:12:58. > :13:02.That platform of being part of Europe is hugely advantageous to
:13:03. > :13:09.trade both with Europe and beyond Europe. Yes, we have to see the
:13:10. > :13:16.sovereignty, but I don't think we should be afraid of it if it means
:13:17. > :13:27.we are stronger and better of overall. We have a question from
:13:28. > :13:31.Adam. Financing the fishery and culture are sectors, will that be
:13:32. > :13:40.the same if we leave the EU? There is no reason why not. Before we
:13:41. > :13:47.entered the EU, we had deficiency payments to our farmers. I would
:13:48. > :13:55.very much doubt if any government of any particular ideology would starve
:13:56. > :14:03.our agricultural sector. And on fishing, the final scene from the
:14:04. > :14:08.SNP point of view, since 1973, would be that we would get rid of the
:14:09. > :14:13.common fisheries policy. Whether it was conducted from Westminster or
:14:14. > :14:21.Holyrood, as one professor at Glasgow University says, that will
:14:22. > :14:27.benefit Scottish fisheries. Why do you think the ANF you in Scotland
:14:28. > :14:32.has come out against a Brexit? It's chief executive argued that overall
:14:33. > :14:41.benefits of staying in outweigh advantages that businesses would get
:14:42. > :14:44.from leaving the EU? I am not sure, there are some farmers voting for
:14:45. > :14:47.leave who would prefer the deficiency payment system that we
:14:48. > :14:56.operated previously. You get people... There are no figures that
:14:57. > :15:03.would clinch the argument in either way. The common fisheries policy on
:15:04. > :15:08.does the argument that you share sovereignty in the EU. He did not
:15:09. > :15:15.share sovereignty in the EU. The transfer sovereignty to the central
:15:16. > :15:23.institution of the EU. The common fisheries policy is a classic
:15:24. > :15:27.example of that transfer. The common agricultural policy has brought
:15:28. > :15:34.significant benefits to Scotland. If vital funding to farmers and land
:15:35. > :15:39.owners to find vulnerable areas. It also provides significant funding to
:15:40. > :15:49.lots of community and environmental activities. Why have the NFU said
:15:50. > :15:54.that they want to come out against this? They said 40% of the EU budget
:15:55. > :15:59.is spent on the common agricultural policy. Significant subsidies come
:16:00. > :16:04.to Scotland and they have said nobody will tell them what is going
:16:05. > :16:09.to replace those subsidies. That is why... George users of State farming
:16:10. > :16:15.who is campaigning on the leeside says that farmers would get as much
:16:16. > :16:23.support or perhaps even more as they get now. That is his view, it is not
:16:24. > :16:30.detailed. He can say what he likes, but that doesn't involve any detail.
:16:31. > :16:36.When the Scottish government was asking people to vote for
:16:37. > :16:41.independence, they had detailed proposals. There has been nothing of
:16:42. > :16:48.the sort this time. What about the official Leave campaign? It is
:16:49. > :16:52.nothing to do with George Eustace. Farming and fishing policy will be
:16:53. > :17:02.the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament. Actually... It is a huge
:17:03. > :17:06.transfer of power to Scotland. The Scottish Parliament can decide what
:17:07. > :17:12.happens to our fishermen and farmers. I have got a ?10 note. Who
:17:13. > :17:17.will give me ?20 for it? That is the deal in Europe. We pay them 20
:17:18. > :17:21.billion, we get ten back. And we are told how to spend it. You talk to
:17:22. > :17:26.any farmer in Scotland today and ask them how it has been this year,
:17:27. > :17:33.filling in the forms and the disaster of paying the money. That
:17:34. > :17:37.money then gets sent back to us in ways that they determine. I want a
:17:38. > :17:44.Scottish Parliament to be able to decide these matters and a fishing
:17:45. > :17:47.and agricultural policy... I just want to pick up with you, this
:17:48. > :17:52.business of how much money would come to the farmers. The vote leave
:17:53. > :17:57.battle suggests that the money we might save if we left the EU in
:17:58. > :18:04.contributions would be more likely directed to the NHS? You can't spend
:18:05. > :18:08.it twice. This isn't a general election. It's not about winning or
:18:09. > :18:14.losing, it's about informing the public on the issues and at the end
:18:15. > :18:18.of the day we will get money back, we will get ?10 billion back. How it
:18:19. > :18:21.is spent is a matter for the elected government in Westminster for the
:18:22. > :18:23.Westminster government and in Scotland with agriculture and
:18:24. > :18:27.fishing and education and other powers that will come back to
:18:28. > :18:32.Scotland, it will be a matter for the first Minister and the Scottish
:18:33. > :18:37.Parliament to decide. Let me finish the point. That's how it should be.
:18:38. > :18:41.At the moment 60% of our laws and regulations are made by unelected
:18:42. > :18:46.commissioners to whom are accountable to no one and you can't
:18:47. > :18:52.get them out. Janet? On those powers, fishing and farming has been
:18:53. > :18:55.devolved since 1998 but negotiating with other countries over common
:18:56. > :18:59.fisheries policy is an common agricultural policies aren't
:19:00. > :19:04.devolved. They are the preserve of Westminster. Is with the Scottish
:19:05. > :19:09.government now. Have you read the Scottish government act? Yes. It's
:19:10. > :19:16.clear that negotiating is a national matter. You were going to return
:19:17. > :19:19.power to Britain last year. Jim has talked about making trade agreements
:19:20. > :19:25.with other countries, we have to replace what we have with something
:19:26. > :19:30.else. Very briefly, though. Mark Forsyth has said Scottish government
:19:31. > :19:32.will have more power. The economic levers of power remain at
:19:33. > :19:36.Westminster. If the British government is going to have more
:19:37. > :19:41.money as a result of leaving the EU... If it will have more money.
:19:42. > :19:45.You don't accept it will? I said if, who's to say it will give any of
:19:46. > :19:49.that money to the Scottish government to replace the subsidies
:19:50. > :19:54.that we currently get for our fishermen and farmers. I want to
:19:55. > :19:59.bring in the audience. I think we have a farmer. Andrew Wilson?
:20:00. > :20:05.Andrew, let's come to you first of all. A question for both sides. Make
:20:06. > :20:10.it as a point to contribute to the debate. It's a well-known fact that
:20:11. > :20:14.there's been turmoil for two years with farmers. There's been various
:20:15. > :20:17.campaigns to the government but there is yet to be any support from
:20:18. > :20:23.a UK government based. What makes you think that if we exit Europe
:20:24. > :20:27.they would support farmers because they have a chance to do so now.
:20:28. > :20:33.This is the hour but there's nothing to see. You've yet to make up your
:20:34. > :20:38.mind and decide which way to vote on Thursday as I understand it. How big
:20:39. > :20:43.a concern is this for you in that decision? It is colossal so it is.
:20:44. > :20:46.It's not just farmers, it's the whole rural economy that benefits
:20:47. > :20:51.from it. What do you want the government to do? What I'm saying is
:20:52. > :20:56.we are still waiting on subsidy payments that were June last year.
:20:57. > :21:00.If they can't deliver that, how can they deliver a whole common
:21:01. > :21:04.agricultural policy within the UK Christian green they are going to
:21:05. > :21:10.deliver a common agricultural policy from Europe, you've just explained
:21:11. > :21:13.that. If they can't do that then how are they going to deliver... We
:21:14. > :21:17.understand it is sitting at the door of the UK government so how are they
:21:18. > :21:21.going to deliver their own policy? Let me bring in a voice from the
:21:22. > :21:26.side of the room with the gentleman with the glasses. I must confess,
:21:27. > :21:30.this is the second time I have heard Michael Forsyth bring up this phrase
:21:31. > :21:36.unelected bureaucrats. Does the term pot, kettle and black spring to
:21:37. > :21:42.mind? And there were some hands up on this side of the room. The great
:21:43. > :21:46.virtue of our system on your point, which is a dig at me because I'm a
:21:47. > :21:49.member of the House of Lords, which is accountable to the House of
:21:50. > :21:54.Commons, the great virtue of our system is you were able to kick me
:21:55. > :21:59.out in 1997 when you didn't agree with our policy is. That is what is
:22:00. > :22:05.at stake here. I want to hear more from the audience. -- policies. This
:22:06. > :22:09.lady here. You say about the common agricultural policy but it doesn't
:22:10. > :22:13.work for Scotland to the point where it could impact the Barley
:22:14. > :22:21.production for the whiskey trade that was talked up so well by Kesia.
:22:22. > :22:27.Can we bring in Kezia Dugdale? Let's hear from Kezia Dugdale. There's
:22:28. > :22:31.something else that Michael Forsyth said that we can't let go by and
:22:32. > :22:35.that is the sense that 60% of our laws come from Europe, that's just
:22:36. > :22:42.not true. Only 13% of our laws even reference the European Union let
:22:43. > :22:47.alone enforce laws made in Europe upon us. It's another one of these
:22:48. > :22:51.scaremongering stories that you accused us of at the start of the
:22:52. > :22:55.programme. The farming concerns are very real, likewise in the fishing
:22:56. > :22:59.industry. I have friends and family in Peterhead where this is real, it
:23:00. > :23:02.is about livelihoods and it's very serious. We asked the Scottish
:23:03. > :23:07.fishermen is Federation what they thought about Europe and they say
:23:08. > :23:11.they are neutral and they say the fisheries policy doesn't work for
:23:12. > :23:14.them and they don't want to lose the free trade across Europe and they
:23:15. > :23:18.don't know what's in their best interests. It's really difficult.
:23:19. > :23:22.There might not be easy answers here. Think about this, do you
:23:23. > :23:27.genuinely believe that a Tory government wants to give more
:23:28. > :23:31.subsidy, more public money to you as a farmer? Do you believe they want
:23:32. > :23:35.to give more money to the NHS? The Tories believe in smaller state
:23:36. > :23:43.intervention and government, they aren't out going to help you get
:23:44. > :23:47.from one week to the next. They insist on smaller government. We
:23:48. > :23:53.will hear from Mark Forsyth later. One more question from Sarah Long.
:23:54. > :23:58.Sarah. I was wondering how would remaining in the U or leaving would
:23:59. > :24:03.affect controlling the high levels of immigration we are experiencing
:24:04. > :24:10.at the moment -- you? Michael Forsyth. -- EU. I agree with Jeremy
:24:11. > :24:15.Corbyn who said on the Andrew Marr programme on Sunday that while we
:24:16. > :24:19.are in the EU it will be impossible for us to control levels of
:24:20. > :24:23.immigration. I think that is very important. I think we do need to
:24:24. > :24:27.have migrants coming to our country but we need to be able to control
:24:28. > :24:31.the numbers so we can match the services for the schools, health
:24:32. > :24:37.service, housing, congestion on our roads and all the other things we
:24:38. > :24:40.have to live with in our country. There are many countries which are
:24:41. > :24:45.not in the European Union. In fact most countries in the world aren't
:24:46. > :24:50.in the European Union but most countries I can think of think it's
:24:51. > :24:56.important to control our borders, and who we can throw out. Because of
:24:57. > :24:59.the European Court we find ourselves with serious criminals here who we
:25:00. > :25:04.cannot expel. That's a good example of how we've lost control of our
:25:05. > :25:07.ability to run our own affairs and by leaving the European Union we can
:25:08. > :25:10.have an immigration policy which meets our needs and brings the
:25:11. > :25:15.skills we need to Scotland and the UK as a whole. And also an
:25:16. > :25:21.immigration policy which is fair to those people who want to come here
:25:22. > :25:25.from non-EU countries, people from India, Pakistan, South Africa,
:25:26. > :25:29.Australia and so on. So we welcome people who can make a real
:25:30. > :25:33.contribution to our economy and not turn people side who can make a huge
:25:34. > :25:38.contribution to the health service and other services because we are
:25:39. > :25:44.stuck with controlling numbers coming from the EU. In terms of net
:25:45. > :25:48.migration of EU citizens to the UK according to the office of national
:25:49. > :25:55.statistics, in the year ending June 2015 around 180,000 came to the UK
:25:56. > :25:57.-- Office for National Statistics. Obviously a smaller proportion for
:25:58. > :26:04.Scotland. Yesterday in the interview Lord Forsyth referred to on the
:26:05. > :26:07.Andrew Marr programme with Kezia Dugdale, Jeremy Corbyn asked if
:26:08. > :26:10.there was an upper limit to immigration coming into the country
:26:11. > :26:16.and he said you can't have one while you have a free movement of labour.
:26:17. > :26:19.Do you agree? I think we should say that we recognise people choosing to
:26:20. > :26:24.live and make their lives in Scotland is a good thing, it's added
:26:25. > :26:28.a tremendous amount to our society to be culturally diverse and to have
:26:29. > :26:33.a mix of ethnicities and we should recognise that. Those figures are
:26:34. > :26:42.right, 180,000 people, a small percentage of our population. If you
:26:43. > :26:45.listen to the Leave campaign, we've all seen that horrific poster Nigel
:26:46. > :26:47.Fry unveiled this week, every migrant you would think came to this
:26:48. > :26:50.country and they got a house and were on benefits and took from us.
:26:51. > :26:55.They are being blamed and they are being told they are the fault of
:26:56. > :26:59.everything wrong in our society -- Nigel Friars. The question I asked
:27:00. > :27:05.you was about what Jeremy Corbyn said on the programme yesterday, can
:27:06. > :27:09.there be a limit? -- Nigel Farage. He was clear that was an aspect of
:27:10. > :27:14.the current situation in the EU. That's a fact? That's right. We need
:27:15. > :27:23.to understand that immigration in the UK is more broader than the EU.
:27:24. > :27:27.The questions that we are being asked is about what type of country
:27:28. > :27:33.we want to be, what kind of society we want to be. One represented by
:27:34. > :27:37.Nigel Farage who tries to label immigrants as forever taking from
:27:38. > :27:42.last? 5% of EU immigrants claim benefits in our country. -- from us.
:27:43. > :27:49.If you listen to the Leave campaign you would think it is 95%. You're
:27:50. > :27:56.more likely to be treated by by an immigrant in the NHS than sitting
:27:57. > :28:00.next to one. If you think there's not enough GPs, not enough council
:28:01. > :28:04.houses for young people, problems with school placements, blame the
:28:05. > :28:08.Tories who have spent the last five years cutting public services. Don't
:28:09. > :28:14.blame immigrants who have just invested in it. I want to bring in
:28:15. > :28:19.our other panellists in a moment but as Kezia Dugdale mentioned the
:28:20. > :28:22.Tories I want to bring you back in, Michael Forsyth. That poster that
:28:23. > :28:26.Kezia Dugdale referred to with the column of people seeking refuge in
:28:27. > :28:32.the EU with the banner on it, breaking point, what did you think
:28:33. > :28:35.of it? I think it was a particularly stupid poster because it confused to
:28:36. > :28:42.things, which is refugees and economic migrants. -- two things. I
:28:43. > :28:46.would like to see us do more on refugees, that means being able to
:28:47. > :28:50.control the numbers coming into our country, which we need to do if we
:28:51. > :28:55.leave the European Union. For example, there is the most appalling
:28:56. > :28:58.persecution going on in Syria and elsewhere of Christians. I've been
:28:59. > :29:01.trying to persuade the government to declare this as genocide, which
:29:02. > :29:06.would mean we could intervene directly to help those people. I
:29:07. > :29:11.thought it was a silly poster but quite frankly, if this campaign is
:29:12. > :29:16.reduced to during about posters that Nigel Farage has got when what is at
:29:17. > :29:21.stake here is our democratic future then something has gone badly wrong
:29:22. > :29:25.with our campaign -- arguing. Let's go to the audience before we go back
:29:26. > :29:31.to the panellists. In the back row, The Lady in the Van will. There's a
:29:32. > :29:36.lot being said about immigration -- the lady in the middle. But
:29:37. > :29:41.immigration actually works both ways. There are 2.2 million Brits
:29:42. > :29:48.who are working, living and retired abroad. And I would like to know
:29:49. > :29:53.what's going to happen to them. If we come out of the EU do they all
:29:54. > :29:57.have to come back? What kind of future is therefore all of these
:29:58. > :30:02.people? I will pick up on that and your answer to the broader question,
:30:03. > :30:07.Jim? Normally about 40,000 Norwegians actually living in Spain
:30:08. > :30:12.I think. I don't think they will be greatly affected one way or the
:30:13. > :30:18.other to tell you the truth. On immigration, let me make it
:30:19. > :30:23.perfectly clear, on the Leave side, people have different reasons for
:30:24. > :30:24.wanting to leave. We are not all Nigel Farages, let me tell you!
:30:25. > :30:38.APPLAUSE And I think if the Leave side loses
:30:39. > :30:41.on Thursday then he will be primarily responsible for the
:30:42. > :30:48.disgraceful way he has conducted the argument on immigration.
:30:49. > :30:54.We need a rational, sensible, adult discussion. Not so much a debate but
:30:55. > :31:00.a discussion about immigration. Of course, numbers of people coming
:31:01. > :31:04.into our country create a problem. The problem isn't culture or
:31:05. > :31:09.stealing someone's job, it's being able to plan. When I was on a
:31:10. > :31:14.hospital board many years ago we needed the registrar general's
:31:15. > :31:20.figures in order to allocate to different areas of the medical
:31:21. > :31:24.services. At one time we had children being born at a fair rate
:31:25. > :31:30.so obviously we got those figures, we could give more money to the
:31:31. > :31:35.maternity services in Glasgow which combined with the birthrate also was
:31:36. > :31:38.a problem because homebirths really were quite dangerous, that was
:31:39. > :31:43.before the slum clearance took place. So we've got to be able to
:31:44. > :31:49.say there are three categories of migrant. There is the asylum seeker
:31:50. > :31:54.who we should welcome all the time without dispute. The other two
:31:55. > :31:58.categories are short-term economic migrants, which I have been
:31:59. > :32:02.incidentally, when I couldn't get work in Scotland I went to Saudi
:32:03. > :32:06.Arabia. So there's economic short-term migrants. And the third?
:32:07. > :32:10.This is quite important because we've had lots of stuff about this.
:32:11. > :32:14.But we are also pressed for time. The other section are people who
:32:15. > :32:20.want to come and live here. And Scotland could do with many more
:32:21. > :32:25.people from all over the world coming to live here because our
:32:26. > :32:29.population was declining until we got the immigration principally from
:32:30. > :32:33.eastern Europe, and it's now rising. A rising population is good for
:32:34. > :32:41.everyone, more prosperous and you have a bigger home market. Let's
:32:42. > :32:47.have an adult, sensible discussion. 3.3%... 3.3% of those in Scotland at
:32:48. > :32:50.the moment are EU Nationals, a further 2.1% are from outside the
:32:51. > :32:57.EU, that's the proportion of the overall population.
:32:58. > :33:11.There is a reason that leaving the EU would reduce our numbers and
:33:12. > :33:18.ability to take in migrants fleeing, and there is a reason that we should
:33:19. > :33:22.not have reasonable migration policy. We have a skills gap that
:33:23. > :33:29.needs to be filled by immigrants. We have many families being sent home,
:33:30. > :33:37.such as at the moment a family from Australia. Only 5% of the population
:33:38. > :33:40.from the UK comes from the EU. Various studies of the last couple
:33:41. > :33:46.of years have shown that migrants from the EU take a net contribution
:33:47. > :33:52.to the British economy. They are paying more by the way of taxes and
:33:53. > :33:57.benefits. I think we need to challenge the myth that what is
:33:58. > :34:04.creating pressure on our public services is EU migrants. What is
:34:05. > :34:08.creating pressure is the failure of this Conservative government to
:34:09. > :34:11.properly invest in public services, particularly the NHS and affordable
:34:12. > :34:20.housing. APPLAUSE I need to come back on
:34:21. > :34:26.this. We are not in charge of the amount of money that we get to spend
:34:27. > :34:30.on the NHS. As you said yourself, it is dependent on the formula. Do not
:34:31. > :34:35.blame the Scottish government for the economic failure of the Tory
:34:36. > :34:38.government. Why should people in Scotland have to pay more than to
:34:39. > :34:49.people in England to have decent public services? We're almost at the
:34:50. > :34:54.end of our time. Let me hear the lady on the side and then this
:34:55. > :34:58.gentleman. To pick up the family question, I was appalled when
:34:59. > :35:03.Michael Gove suggested that if we left the EU, Scotland would be able
:35:04. > :35:11.to sort out its own immigration issues. Talking about families from
:35:12. > :35:17.outside the EU, why should we believe that? It is disingenuous. On
:35:18. > :35:24.the basis of what we experienced post- referendum, I wouldn't believe
:35:25. > :35:29.a word they say. Thank you for that. Joanna, I agree that there is a
:35:30. > :35:33.skills gap in Scotland, but with the EU, you can't control what comes out
:35:34. > :35:40.and in. Surely it makes more sense to have a system where you can
:35:41. > :35:46.prioritise the skills you have mentioned? We need a sensible
:35:47. > :35:51.migration policy, that is what we don't have. Thank you for your
:35:52. > :35:57.contributions, we need to move on to another topic. Our next question
:35:58. > :36:03.comes from Jamie McEwan. Would it be better to be an independent Scotland
:36:04. > :36:12.with the EU, all part of the UK within the EU? An independent
:36:13. > :36:16.Scotland within the EU? Other options are available, it depends
:36:17. > :36:21.what happens in the referendum. If there is a Brexit in Scotland votes
:36:22. > :36:26.to stay in, what happens? I don't think you should have to pick
:36:27. > :36:33.between two unions. I want to remain both part of the UK and within the
:36:34. > :36:39.EU. If we are in a situation on Friday where we have voted as a
:36:40. > :36:43.United Kingdom to leave the EU, then I think the arguments for staying
:36:44. > :36:50.part of the UK become even stronger. We will just set ourselves a task of
:36:51. > :36:59.leaving our second biggest trading partner. So much we have discussed
:37:00. > :37:04.tonight was linked with that. The Labour Party's position is simply
:37:05. > :37:08.that we oppose a second referendum on independence over the next five
:37:09. > :37:14.years, simply because we respect democracy. We were told it was a
:37:15. > :37:18.once-in-a-lifetime... It has to be respected. I am obliged to remind
:37:19. > :37:22.you that in an interview in February, you contemplated that in
:37:23. > :37:28.these circumstances it wasn't inconceivable. That she might back
:37:29. > :37:31.an independent Scotland? Yes, and I think everyone expects me to be
:37:32. > :37:37.thoughtful and reflective about that. I thought in Scotland we were
:37:38. > :37:42.in a position to have a more nuanced conversation about the Constitution.
:37:43. > :37:50.But we are still divided between yes and no, black and white. I believe
:37:51. > :37:53.that Scotland's future best lies within the UK, and I think
:37:54. > :37:59.especially if we were to leave the EU which I hope that we don't, that
:38:00. > :38:03.relationship becomes even more important and I will be even more
:38:04. > :38:10.drawn to remain in in the UK if we leave the EU. We are on the same
:38:11. > :38:14.side tonight, which is very pleasant but we were on different sides
:38:15. > :38:19.during the independence referendum. If you took any interest, you will
:38:20. > :38:23.recall that we were repeatedly told by Better Together that the only way
:38:24. > :38:32.to continue Scotland's membership of the EU was to vote no and stay in
:38:33. > :38:39.the UK. In the event that the UK votes to leave the EU in Scotland
:38:40. > :38:42.votes to remain in the EU, then the circumstances in which people voted
:38:43. > :38:50.to remain in the UK in 2014 will have changed significantly. The SNP
:38:51. > :38:54.said that they felt the Scottish Parliament should be entitled to
:38:55. > :38:59.hold another referendum if there was a material and significant change in
:39:00. > :39:01.the circumstances that occurred in 2014. Alex Salmond says that would
:39:02. > :39:10.happen in two years, what do you think? I think there would be a
:39:11. > :39:15.ground swell for support of a second referendum, if Scotland is taken out
:39:16. > :39:19.of the EU against her will. I have a say on what people have said on
:39:20. > :39:24.their doorsteps, discussing the issue. People are concerned that
:39:25. > :39:30.after being told that the only way to remain in the EU in 2040 was to
:39:31. > :39:35.vote no, but now they are being forced out. I want to see Scotland
:39:36. > :39:40.as an independent member state in the EU. But I also want to see the
:39:41. > :39:46.UK remain in the EU. I think that is in the interests of the whole of the
:39:47. > :40:01.UK economy. The SNP has been trying to run a positive campaign to
:40:02. > :40:05.remain. That is pure... I have read the manifesto and I have also read
:40:06. > :40:10.these words in the Sunday Herald from Nicola Sturgeon. If Scotland
:40:11. > :40:14.does face being taken out of Europe against our will, then the options
:40:15. > :40:24.set out in our manifesto must be on the table for consideration. A very
:40:25. > :40:31.slippery one. The SNP does not have the mandate to hold a second
:40:32. > :40:40.independence referendum. The same position in 2016 as Alex Salmond was
:40:41. > :40:46.in 2007, a minority government. But with this difference, Alex Salmond
:40:47. > :40:56.at least ask for a mandate. Nicola Sturgeon had the option to add this
:40:57. > :41:00.option, and I ask you for a mandate in order to hold a second
:41:01. > :41:07.referendum. She doesn't have the mandate. And that power, legal
:41:08. > :41:12.power, to grant a referendum, is at Westminster. The only way you can
:41:13. > :41:19.leverage that out of Westminster is having a majority combined with a
:41:20. > :41:24.mandate. You then have the moral authority to say whether people
:41:25. > :41:35.wanted. The next time that the SNP might get a majority and might ask
:41:36. > :41:44.for a mandate is 2021. To then pretends to the yes voters that we
:41:45. > :41:54.would be on our way to a second referendum... . I have the greatest
:41:55. > :41:59.respect for Jim, but he is simply wrong. Google the SNP manifesto and
:42:00. > :42:05.page 24, and you will see the pages I have set out for you. The SNP
:42:06. > :42:09.reserved 46.5% of the vote. That is the highest mandate that any
:42:10. > :42:22.government has in western Europe. Furthermore... Stock. You have
:42:23. > :42:28.already had a say. I am confused about the SNP's position, because of
:42:29. > :42:31.the argument is, and polls suggest that if England votes to leave and
:42:32. > :42:35.Scotland votes to remain, then we should have another referendum. The
:42:36. > :42:39.simple message to anyone who wants to keep the EU is that you should
:42:40. > :42:44.vote to leave in Scotland otherwise it will be used to make the case for
:42:45. > :42:48.another referendum. The polls show that the majority of people in
:42:49. > :42:55.Scotland do not want to have another referendum. Either way, if on Friday
:42:56. > :42:59.people vote to remain in the EU, which I am opposed to, I will accept
:43:00. > :43:03.the result, because they am a democrat. I think it's a disgrace
:43:04. > :43:08.the SNP continue to damage Scotland's interest by dragging out
:43:09. > :43:12.this idea that we could leave the UK. If we were to leave the UK with
:43:13. > :43:17.the oil price where it is, we would be boss. And the EU won't have you
:43:18. > :43:23.because you wouldn't be able to make the debt criteria. I want to knock
:43:24. > :43:33.this idea on the head that we would be bust. The United Kingdom has a
:43:34. > :43:38.deficit of 76 billion, despite six years of austerity. We are part...
:43:39. > :43:43.You brought it up, so I am finishing off the point. It is a disingenuous
:43:44. > :43:47.argument. Most countries in Europe have a deficit, an independent
:43:48. > :43:52.Scotland would have a small deficit, the UK has a deficit of 76 billion.
:43:53. > :44:01.Hearing from some of our audience, the gentleman in the front row? Your
:44:02. > :44:04.entire eight campaign for the Scottish Referendum was everything
:44:05. > :44:10.will stay the same, which is why you wanted the EU exit as a result. But
:44:11. > :44:18.if we are out of the EU, you've lost one of your status quo option. You
:44:19. > :44:23.will now be asking people to leave the UK and hope to join the EU if we
:44:24. > :44:30.are out. This will not help you win, but I don't think people are going
:44:31. > :44:35.to want to join this thing called the EU. Every citizen of Scotland
:44:36. > :44:42.has a continuing rights to be a citizen of the EU. There are many
:44:43. > :44:46.small and newly independent nations joining the EU. It is simply
:44:47. > :44:54.ridiculous to think that an independent Scotland would not be
:44:55. > :45:01.welcome in the EU. Would you have the pound or the euro? We would need
:45:02. > :45:06.to look at it at the time, I can't make that decision right now. We
:45:07. > :45:12.would need to look at the economic conditions at the time, we would
:45:13. > :45:18.probably not want to be tied to the pound. In 2014 and in a letter to
:45:19. > :45:26.the Scottish Parliament from the Vice President of the EU, they told
:45:27. > :45:31.us that the day you are independent, you are out. There is no reason to
:45:32. > :45:40.believe that they wouldn't tell us the same thing next time, if the UK
:45:41. > :45:44.remains... Opinion says that Scotland would have a right to
:45:45. > :45:48.remain a member. We must leave it there because we are out of time.
:45:49. > :45:54.Thank you very much indeed to the four on our panel and to our
:45:55. > :45:55.audience. That's all we've got time for, voting is