EU Referendum: The Great Debate

:00:36. > :00:47.Good evening. APPLAUSE

:00:48. > :00:51.Good evening and welcome to Wembley and the great debate, voting now

:00:52. > :00:55.only one day away in the most important decision the United

:00:56. > :01:02.Kingdom has been asked to make in a generation. And here in the SSE

:01:03. > :01:06.Arena several thousand voters divided equally between supporters

:01:07. > :01:10.of Leave and Remain have come together to listen to the final

:01:11. > :01:12.appeals of each side. All the main speakers here on stage were

:01:13. > :01:19.nominated by the designated campaigns. Speaking in favour of

:01:20. > :01:20.leaving are the former Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, the Labour

:01:21. > :01:30.MP... APPLAUSE

:01:31. > :01:35.The Labour MP Gisela Stuart and the Conservative Energy Minister an

:01:36. > :01:38.threea Ledson. APPLAUSE

:01:39. > :01:45.Speaking in favourite of remaining in the European Union, the leader of

:01:46. > :01:49.the Conservative Party in Scotland, Ruth Davidson. The Mayor of London,

:01:50. > :01:56.Sadiq Khan. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:01:57. > :02:03.And Francis O'Grady, General Secretary of the TUC. Also with us

:02:04. > :02:07.here in the arena, at the other end of the arena is Mishal Husain with

:02:08. > :02:11.other guests, who are going to be listening to what's being said up

:02:12. > :02:15.here and commenting on. It Yes, I'll get reaction from my panel of

:02:16. > :02:18.guests, representing Leave and Remain, business people, politicians

:02:19. > :02:25.and others, who've played a part in the referendum campaign. I'm in the

:02:26. > :02:28.media spin room, where we'll be getting instant reaction to the

:02:29. > :02:33.debate from political campaigners and from the press and fact checking

:02:34. > :02:39.with the BBC's reality check team. And if you want to take part from

:02:40. > :02:44.home in the debate on social media, you can use the hashtag BBC debate,

:02:45. > :02:48.go to BBC News, on Facebook, where you can post your questions and

:02:49. > :02:57.comments. There's also an instant fact checking on our website,

:02:58. > :03:00.bbc.co.uk/realitycheck. Now a few moments ago the two sides drew lots

:03:01. > :03:07.to decide who would start the debate. The Leave side won and

:03:08. > :03:10.they've chosen Gisela Stuart, briefly, to summarise their

:03:11. > :03:20.argument. APPLAUSE

:03:21. > :03:26.Ask yourself just one question, if we were not in the EU today would we

:03:27. > :03:31.join it? And if the answer is no, then on Thursday you will vote Leave

:03:32. > :03:37.and take control. The European Union was a noble dream in the last

:03:38. > :03:42.century, but today, it has failed. It has turned into a nightmare. I'm

:03:43. > :03:47.a mother and I'm a grandmother and I think it is terrible that 50% of

:03:48. > :03:53.young people in Greece don't have a job. The only continent with a

:03:54. > :03:58.growth rate lower than Europe is Antarctica. By being in the EU, we

:03:59. > :04:03.lose control of billions of pounds every year. It doesn't have to be

:04:04. > :04:09.like this. We can take back control over our laws. We can take back

:04:10. > :04:14.control over our taxes. We can take back control over our borders,

:04:15. > :04:19.immigration policy and security. You know, sometimes voting doesn't make

:04:20. > :04:25.much difference. On Thursday, it really does. You will decide who

:04:26. > :04:30.makes decisions about the future of this country, so, take back control

:04:31. > :04:42.and vote Leave. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:04:43. > :04:50.Thank you. Now to open the debate for the Remain side, their choice,

:04:51. > :04:57.Sadiq Khan. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:04:58. > :05:07.Good evening. In just two days' time, we will make the most

:05:08. > :05:12.important decision for a generation. Tonight, Ruth, Francis and I will

:05:13. > :05:17.set out the positive and patriotic choice to remain in Europe. You and

:05:18. > :05:21.your family will be both better off and safer. Your job will be more

:05:22. > :05:25.secure and your wages will be higher. The prices you pay in the

:05:26. > :05:30.shops will be lower and your rights at work will be protected. As a

:05:31. > :05:35.lawyer, I learned to listen to the experts and follow the evidence.

:05:36. > :05:40.Well, the evidence is undeniable and all the experts agree - we are

:05:41. > :05:46.stronger, safer and better off in Europe, even those who want us to

:05:47. > :05:49.leave admit that it's a big gamble. If there's one thing you should

:05:50. > :05:54.remember when you go to vote, it's this: If we as a country decide to

:05:55. > :05:58.quit, then we're out for good. There's no going back. Being

:05:59. > :06:01.outwards and looking and forming alliances makes our country so

:06:02. > :06:04.great. I urge you to make the positive and patriotic choice and

:06:05. > :06:15.vote Remain. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:06:16. > :06:23.Thank you. Now the questions that we've picked for debate tonight come

:06:24. > :06:28.from our huge audience, obviously they can't all ask a question. But

:06:29. > :06:33.we've divided the questions up into three sections - the economy,

:06:34. > :06:40.immigration and Britain's place in the world. The key issues, those

:06:41. > :06:45.three key issues are what we're doing. First, before we go to the

:06:46. > :06:49.questions, we want to give you an objective view of the issues that

:06:50. > :06:53.are at stake. Let's have a look at the issues that both sides have

:06:54. > :06:58.identified on the economy. The UK economy is the fifth largest

:06:59. > :07:04.in the world and the second largest in the European Union, after

:07:05. > :07:10.Germany. Exports to countries in the EU account for 44% of everything we

:07:11. > :07:16.sell abroad. Last year, we exported goods and services worth ?223

:07:17. > :07:22.billion to the EU, and ?288 billion to the rest of the world. Imports

:07:23. > :07:28.from the EU amounted to ?291 billion, which means we have a trade

:07:29. > :07:33.deficit of ?68 billion a year with the EU. All this trade takes place

:07:34. > :07:38.within the EU's single market. That means there are no tariffs on goods

:07:39. > :07:42.moving between EU countries. Leave campaigners say that would also be

:07:43. > :07:47.possible under future trade deals, if we vote to leave. The single

:07:48. > :07:52.market means a common set of rules and standards for almost all goods

:07:53. > :07:56.and many services, rules that are enforced by the European Court of

:07:57. > :08:00.Justice. Remain supporters say that makes it harder for other countries

:08:01. > :08:04.to discriminate against British companies and that being in the

:08:05. > :08:09.single market is good for jobs. Leave supporters say it means all

:08:10. > :08:13.British firms are bound by EU regulations which add unnecessary

:08:14. > :08:17.red tape and are often imposed without UK support. So when it comes

:08:18. > :08:22.to the economy, which is the best path for Britain - to Remain or to

:08:23. > :08:30.Leave? So let's go to our first question,

:08:31. > :08:35.which is from a Leave supporter. I run a small business, employing

:08:36. > :08:39.ten local staff, and have been stifled by the raft of EU

:08:40. > :08:44.legislation that's been imposed on me. What benefits are there for

:08:45. > :08:54.small business owners of remaining in the EU, as I can't see any? Ruth

:08:55. > :08:58.Davidson. Thank you, Maxine. Small businesses are the backbone of our

:08:59. > :09:02.economy. I know that some people can find the EU a bit frustrating and

:09:03. > :09:06.fussy, but what it does, it provides a level playing field, so that you

:09:07. > :09:10.can't be undercut by other companies in other parts of the world. That's

:09:11. > :09:15.why eight out of ten of the CBI's small business members want to stay

:09:16. > :09:18.in the EU. We also help to write those rules. If we came out of the

:09:19. > :09:24.EU, we wouldn't have a seat at the table. If we wanted to trade in the

:09:25. > :09:27.EU, the other countries could put on tariffs and taxes, so you couldn't

:09:28. > :09:31.sell to all of these other nations, the biggest free trading block in

:09:32. > :09:35.the world, for free. It would cost us more money. That would hurt our

:09:36. > :09:40.economy. It would also hurt jobs in this country. I want our economy to

:09:41. > :09:43.grow and not shrink. The other side haven't told us what would replace

:09:44. > :09:47.the single market. They haven't told us how many jobs would be lost. They

:09:48. > :09:51.haven't told us how long new trade deals will take. They haven't told

:09:52. > :09:55.us how big the hit will be. I don't think that's good enough when you go

:09:56. > :09:59.to vote. You have to know or don't go, vote to remain to the biggest

:10:00. > :10:06.trade deal that we can get in the world. All right.

:10:07. > :10:11.APPLAUSE I'm going to try to give equal time

:10:12. > :10:17.to both sides tonight. Boris. Thank you very much. I must say that I

:10:18. > :10:23.think it was extraordinary to hear that we would have tariffs imposed

:10:24. > :10:30.on us, because everybody knows that this country receives about a fifth

:10:31. > :10:33.of Germany's entire car manufacturing output, 820,000

:10:34. > :10:38.vehicles a year. Do you seriously suppose that they are going to be so

:10:39. > :10:46.insane, as to allow tariffs to be imposed between Britain and Germany?

:10:47. > :10:50.CHEERING I've been listening to businesses large and small, up and

:10:51. > :10:54.down our country, over the last few months. I've been amazed how many

:10:55. > :10:59.passionately want to come out of the single market, because of the rules

:11:00. > :11:03.and regulation that's it imposes. 100% of UK businesses, even though

:11:04. > :11:08.only 6% only do any trade with the rest of the EU. I'm listening to

:11:09. > :11:13.some of the most extraordinary success stories of UK manufacturing

:11:14. > :11:17.- JCB, the makers of the fantastic diggers that are building this city,

:11:18. > :11:24.building roads and cities around the world. They want to come out of the

:11:25. > :11:28.EU and not just JCD, but James Dyson, the single biggest

:11:29. > :11:34.manufacturer of vacuum cleaners in Germany! All right, Boris. He wants

:11:35. > :11:37.to come out. Just let me finish this point. He's telling the papers

:11:38. > :11:42.tonight that he thinks staying in would be an act of economic

:11:43. > :11:47.self-harm. All right. The way to more wealth and more jobs is to

:11:48. > :12:00.leave, vote leave. Take control on Thursday. Sadiq Khan. I'm pleased

:12:01. > :12:05.you're speaking to people, Boris, and I hope you're listening to. One

:12:06. > :12:12.of the people you're listening to is a chap called Patrick Minford, he's

:12:13. > :12:18.your chief economic advisor. Now Patrick said and I quote, "Leaving

:12:19. > :12:23.will eliminate manufacturing. Over time, if we left the EU, it seems

:12:24. > :12:27.likely we would most likely eliminate manufacturing, but this

:12:28. > :12:30.shouldn't scare us." Let me tell you, to those 2. 5 million who work

:12:31. > :12:41.in manufacturing, it scares them. It scares their family and it scares

:12:42. > :12:46.me. Thank you. Well I ran financial services businesses for 25 years. I

:12:47. > :12:51.did a tint as City minister and I'm a mum. I genuinely believe our

:12:52. > :12:58.future will be so much brighter if we vote Leave and take back control

:12:59. > :13:03.of our trade. The European Union has been a disaster for UK trade with

:13:04. > :13:08.the rest of the world. It is true to say if we remain in, we're already

:13:09. > :13:13.one of the biggest contributors to the EU, their failed euro project is

:13:14. > :13:19.going to cost us so dearly. We will be paying for it forever. Not only

:13:20. > :13:23.that, the EU wants to expand its borders to include Turkey and we

:13:24. > :13:26.simply cannot afford it. We need to take back control and vote Leave on

:13:27. > :13:37.Thursday. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:13:38. > :13:41.Francis, just a reminder, Maxine's question was what benefits there are

:13:42. > :13:44.for small business owners. I was going to say that Maxine, your

:13:45. > :13:48.question is about small businesses and there are lots of small

:13:49. > :13:56.businesses in Britain that have a pretty tough time, but many of them

:13:57. > :14:03.are also parts of supply chains. The Leave side roll out JCB, but that's

:14:04. > :14:10.one company. All the experts are saying that the economy would take a

:14:11. > :14:17.big hit if we came out of the EU, that we trade -- trade would be more

:14:18. > :14:22.hit as well. If you don't believe the experts, then listen to the shop

:14:23. > :14:32.floor, because I'm here representing workers tonight. Union reps from

:14:33. > :14:35.BMW, Toyota, Ford, Nissan, you name is, across the manufacturing sector,

:14:36. > :14:39.they are saying we cannot afford this gamble with our jobs, our

:14:40. > :14:47.wages, our livelihoods and our rights.

:14:48. > :14:55.Gisela. Maxine, as someone who run as small business you know you don't

:14:56. > :14:58.have time to lobby in Brussels. That's why the big companies like

:14:59. > :15:01.Brussels, because they are all just lobbying to have their rules

:15:02. > :15:06.imposed. APPLAUSE. And you are left with

:15:07. > :15:09.having to comply with them. What I find is where the real job

:15:10. > :15:17.generators are the small businesses like yours. Let's say what will

:15:18. > :15:23.happen after we vote to leave. The income payments, the chair of the In

:15:24. > :15:27.campaign, Sir Stuart Rose of M, said it is not going to be a step

:15:28. > :15:31.change or somebody is going to turn the lights out. And then very

:15:32. > :15:37.importantly, he said wages will go up. That should be something that is

:15:38. > :15:40.really very important, because the pressure at the same time of

:15:41. > :15:45.uncontrolled immigration, which is what the Bank of England has said,

:15:46. > :15:50.that with every 10% you've got a suppression of 2% on wages. So for

:15:51. > :15:54.small businesses you are better off, take back control and leave.

:15:55. > :16:01.APPLAUSE. Do you want to come back on that? I do. Let's be honest,

:16:02. > :16:05.workers in this country have already been through a rough time. That was

:16:06. > :16:12.nothing to do with this debate. That was to do with all those bankers who

:16:13. > :16:17.crashed our economy. And workers ended up paying the price. So when

:16:18. > :16:22.we talk about wages, the TUC has looked at all the hard evidence.

:16:23. > :16:27.What it shows, what we can see is that in the long run, because our

:16:28. > :16:32.economy would be hit, good jobs like the ones in BMW and the car

:16:33. > :16:36.factories would be replaced by worse ones like Sports Direct and zero

:16:37. > :16:47.hours, and Wetherspoons for that matter. Alright. Wages would drop in

:16:48. > :16:52.the long run by ?38 a week. That's filling up your petrol tank in a

:16:53. > :17:00.small car. That's a big hit and we can't afford it. Don't take the

:17:01. > :17:04.risk. Andrea? Thank you. Frances, what Len McCluskey, the boss of

:17:05. > :17:11.Unite union, the biggest union, has said is that in the last ten years,

:17:12. > :17:14.the EU's accession plans have created gigantic experiment at the

:17:15. > :17:18.expense of ordinary workers. The result has been sustained pressure

:17:19. > :17:22.on living standards, a systemic attempt to hold down wages and to

:17:23. > :17:28.cut costs of social provision for working people. The EU has also

:17:29. > :17:37.created 50% youth unemployment right across southern Europe. It's a total

:17:38. > :17:40.(Inaudible) for a generation of young people. Andrea, we are talking

:17:41. > :17:44.about British jobs and we have the highest level of employment in our

:17:45. > :17:48.country's history. If you want to trade quotes, let's talk about what

:17:49. > :17:51.your side have been saying. Boris Johnson, his Chief Economist says it

:17:52. > :17:57.will eliminate manufacturing. He also said the EU would generate an

:17:58. > :18:00.economic shock. Michael Gove says it will mean inevitably bumps in the

:18:01. > :18:04.road. He said he can't guarantee that people won't lose their jobs. I

:18:05. > :18:08.cannot question that every person currently in work in their current

:18:09. > :18:12.job will keep their job. Boris Johnson said, will there be job

:18:13. > :18:17.losses, there might or there might not. That is not good enough. That

:18:18. > :18:25.is not good enough. CHEERING. It hasn't taken them long.

:18:26. > :18:31.Boris? It hasn't taken them long... Hold on. They told us they would

:18:32. > :18:34.have a positive and patriotic case and they are back to Project Fear

:18:35. > :18:40.within moments. CHEERING. I want to protect British

:18:41. > :18:45.workers. It is positive. They have nothing positive to say. I want

:18:46. > :18:50.to... Hold on. Lord rose... Everybody will have their chance,

:18:51. > :18:53.but if you speak one at a time, everybody here can hear and

:18:54. > :18:58.everybody at home can hear. Boris. Thank you. It was Lord Rose who said

:18:59. > :19:03.clearly that there would be no shock, that things would go on as

:19:04. > :19:07.they are. Except for one thing. He said people on low incomes, as

:19:08. > :19:11.Gisela rightly said, would get a pay rise. He was supported in that view

:19:12. > :19:18.by somebody on the panel opposite. It is no less a figure, I will leave

:19:19. > :19:22.you to guess. Somebody said that in too many places immigration has

:19:23. > :19:26.driven down local wages. Now, who do you think that was on the panel

:19:27. > :19:35.opposite? It was Sadiq Khan. I think he was making a good point.

:19:36. > :19:39.APPLAUSE. No I didn't, Boris. As a Conservative, and I'm a proud

:19:40. > :19:42.Conservative and a believer in free markets, the differentials in

:19:43. > :19:48.incomes in our country have become too great. It is wrong that FTSE 100

:19:49. > :19:53.chiefs are earning 150 times the average pay of people on the shop

:19:54. > :19:57.floor. It would be a fine thing if as Lord Rose said people on low

:19:58. > :20:01.incomes got a pay rise as a result of us taking back control of our

:20:02. > :20:10.country and our system. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Boris, can I

:20:11. > :20:14.ask you a question? I don't think it is unreasonable that people are

:20:15. > :20:18.worried about their local hospital, worried about their local school,

:20:19. > :20:22.worried what would happen if our economy went into recession or if

:20:23. > :20:26.they lost their jobs or business struggles. All the experts say, and

:20:27. > :20:32.you know this, leaving the EU would cause problems from our country.

:20:33. > :20:36.Most recently as today, the chap who predicted the crash in 2008, what

:20:37. > :20:40.did he say, Boris? He said Brexit could stall the UK economy and tip

:20:41. > :20:43.us into recession. It is not unreasonable for a mum and dad

:20:44. > :20:48.worried about paying the bills to ask the question, what is your plan?

:20:49. > :20:56.A slogan is not a detailed plan. We want an answer to the question, what

:20:57. > :21:00.is your plan? How would you make sure the terms of trade with the EU

:21:01. > :21:03.are better than they are now? How would you make sure jobs won't

:21:04. > :21:07.suffer? How would you make sure small businesses won't suffer? The

:21:08. > :21:11.last time there was a recession, hard-working people in this country

:21:12. > :21:16.suffered, many lost their homes. What's important, Boris, you ask the

:21:17. > :21:24.question, but what is your plan? APPLAUSE. The point is, we are as

:21:25. > :21:29.things stand spending billions every year that go into a big black hole

:21:30. > :21:35.in the European Union and it's going to get worse. All the Remain side

:21:36. > :21:39.have to talk about is Project Fear. We are the fifth biggest economy in

:21:40. > :21:45.the world. We will be able to have free trade once we are free of the

:21:46. > :21:48.European Union that has done a terrible job negotiating free trade

:21:49. > :21:52.for us. Even Switzerland and Singapore, far smaller economies,

:21:53. > :21:58.have been able to negotiate more than five times the value of the

:21:59. > :22:06.free trade of the European Union. APPLAUSE. Vote to leave on Thursday.

:22:07. > :22:16.We have a second question. It is on the economy and it is from Miranda,

:22:17. > :22:21.who is supporting Remain. As a black British woman, I am grateful for the

:22:22. > :22:28.protections the EU has provided me in the workplace and in wider

:22:29. > :22:34.society. If we leave the EU, will this be the beginning of a slippery

:22:35. > :22:43.slope towards weaker employment and social rights in the UK?

:22:44. > :22:49.APPLAUSE. Andrea? Thank you very much for your question. The truth is

:22:50. > :22:53.that UK governments have led the way in providing good rights for

:22:54. > :22:59.workers, even before the European Union came into existence we had

:23:00. > :23:03.equal pay legislation. It's been... Governments of all parties have

:23:04. > :23:10.created minimum wage legislation, now a National Living Wage, shared

:23:11. > :23:14.parental lead, ad, child-free tax care -- tax-free childcare. It is

:23:15. > :23:19.this country that is protecting workers' rights. We do not need an

:23:20. > :23:24.unelected bureaucratic European leaders who none of us can even

:23:25. > :23:29.name, let alone who any of us voted for, to tell us what our workers'

:23:30. > :23:31.rights can be. We should take back control and look after our own

:23:32. > :23:38.society. APPLAUSE. It is a question about

:23:39. > :23:42.employment and social rights. Do you want to start? It is a really

:23:43. > :23:47.important question from Miranda, because too often we hear the words

:23:48. > :23:52.red tape and what they are really talking about is getting rid of

:23:53. > :23:58.vital rights at work that we all rely on.

:23:59. > :24:04.APPLAUSE. Now, these rights weren't gifted to us. We fought over

:24:05. > :24:06.generations, over boted to us. We fought over generations, over

:24:07. > :24:11.borders, trade unions - all of us fought author these rights. But the

:24:12. > :24:14.EU guarantees them. These are really important to our real lives. People

:24:15. > :24:19.don't always understand this. This about if your child is sick, getting

:24:20. > :24:25.emergency leave to look after them. Them. It is about equal rights for

:24:26. > :24:30.part timers and agency workers. We hear a lot about holidays, when the

:24:31. > :24:37.working time directive came in, 2 million people in Britain got paid

:24:38. > :24:41.holidays for the first time. Mainly women, mainly young people. Do you

:24:42. > :24:45.trust them, can they promise us today, because I've heard a lot from

:24:46. > :24:49.some of these leading lights in the Leave campaign and what they plan to

:24:50. > :24:54.do on employment rights, can you promise us today that you will

:24:55. > :25:01.protect each and every single right that we won through the EU? Alright,

:25:02. > :25:06.that's the question. Gisela. We have done already. Already. I first

:25:07. > :25:12.joined the trade union 45 years ago when I was an apprentice and I

:25:13. > :25:15.though that strong trade unions, are best supported by Labour

:25:16. > :25:19.Governments, protect rights. I find it extraordinary that I'm being told

:25:20. > :25:24.that I can't trust you, the voter, to make sure we get a Government in

:25:25. > :25:35.which protects workers' rights and we need Brussels to defend you.

:25:36. > :25:41.APPLAUSE. The euro is a broken project. We are going to pay... No,

:25:42. > :25:44.YOU are going to pay out of your taxes one bail-out after another.

:25:45. > :25:51.And the European Union does not protect your jobs. Just a few years

:25:52. > :25:54.ago, ford Transit got money from the European Union so they could take

:25:55. > :25:58.their factory out of the United Kingdom and put it into Turkey. That

:25:59. > :26:07.is wrong. APPLAUSE. Sadiq Khan. Miranda, I

:26:08. > :26:13.would ask you a question, but Gisela, you are so wrong. Every time

:26:14. > :26:18.we've been... Every time you and I have been in a lobby voting for

:26:19. > :26:21.bills to give workers' rights, they've been in the other lobby

:26:22. > :26:30.voting against those rights. APPLAUSE. Let me say this. Let me

:26:31. > :26:36.tell you why you're wrong. Because Priti Patel let the mask slip. She

:26:37. > :26:40.has said, if we could just halve the burdens of the EU social and

:26:41. > :26:45.employment legislation, and let me tell you what that means. That means

:26:46. > :26:49.rights for mums and dads. That means rights for part time workers who've

:26:50. > :26:52.the same rights as full-time workers. Web the employer changes

:26:53. > :26:56.ownership, they have rights. The worst thing for workers is their

:26:57. > :27:00.bosses business going out of business. Them losing trade, losing

:27:01. > :27:03.jobs. That's why we need a healthy economy. Gisela, you should know

:27:04. > :27:09.better. APPLAUSE. Sadiq, the most important

:27:10. > :27:15.worker's right is a right to a job. As long as we are shackled to a

:27:16. > :27:22.failing eurozone liable to bail-out after bail-out, we will not succeed.

:27:23. > :27:31.There's two points. Number one, the eurozone is growing faster than our

:27:32. > :27:36.economy and the USA. Number two... You and I both fought an election

:27:37. > :27:39.where these guys were boasting how brilliant our economy is, right?

:27:40. > :27:43.They were boasting last year how brilliant our economy is. One of the

:27:44. > :27:47.reasons why we are the fifth richest country is our role is enhanced by

:27:48. > :27:50.being in the European Union. We are at the table helping the rules being

:27:51. > :27:58.made. APPLAUSE. . Boris? In addition, it

:27:59. > :28:02.beggars belief that the Remain side cannot think of a single one of the

:28:03. > :28:07.EU's multitude of regulations they would get rid of, not even the

:28:08. > :28:12.clinical trials directive, which prevents vital pharmaceutical work

:28:13. > :28:17.being carried out. The EU I'm afraid is a job-destroying engine. You can

:28:18. > :28:21.see it across Europe and you can see it, alas, in this country as well.

:28:22. > :28:28.Gisela rightly mentioned the case of Ford. I would also mention what

:28:29. > :28:34.happened to Tate Lyle, who tonight announced they want to come out of

:28:35. > :28:38.the EU because of the destruction that the EU's Common Agricultural

:28:39. > :28:44.Policy has wrought upon them. Not just on jobs in London but in the

:28:45. > :28:46.developing world who want to export cane sugar to the EU. I would

:28:47. > :28:54.also... APPLAUSE. I would mention Tata

:28:55. > :29:00.Steel. We are told we cannot cut our energy costs to protect jobs in Port

:29:01. > :29:08.Talbot because Brussels says no. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Nonsense.

:29:09. > :29:13.It's a lie! Hold on. It is perfectly true. One lie after another after

:29:14. > :29:17.another. Just cool it everybody for a moment. Ruth Davidson. You are

:29:18. > :29:21.going to be asked to vote in two days' time and all you've heard is

:29:22. > :29:26.trust us and it will all be fine. That's not good enough. They won't

:29:27. > :29:31.tell us how much our economy will be hit by, won't tell us how many jobs

:29:32. > :29:36.might go, what they are going to replace a single market with. If you

:29:37. > :29:40.vote on Thursday, you cannot change your mind on Friday. If we vote to

:29:41. > :29:43.come out of the biggest free trade bloc in the world, there'll be

:29:44. > :29:48.tariffs put on British businesses. That will affect our ability to

:29:49. > :29:52.trade abroad. It is not just the 27 we trade with now as part of the EU,

:29:53. > :29:56.but there are 50 other countries in the world the EU has trade deals

:29:57. > :30:01.with. If they come out, we go to the back of the queue. That's not

:30:02. > :30:06.Project Fear. That's what Obama said. They want a deal with 500

:30:07. > :30:15.million, not 50 million people. 80% of the world's economy is not in

:30:16. > :30:20.the single market. The free trade deals that Ruth is talking about

:30:21. > :30:24.that the EU has, those free trade deals are many of them, most of

:30:25. > :30:28.them, 46 of the 50 countries are not in the single market. Many countries

:30:29. > :30:36.in the world do more business with the EU than the UK does. You do not

:30:37. > :30:41.need to be in the single market. We are the fifth biggest economy in the

:30:42. > :30:45.world. Most economies can agree free trade deals within two years. The

:30:46. > :30:52.European Union is taking ten years or never at all. Why? Because 28

:30:53. > :30:57.member states cannot even organise a takeaway curry, let alone what

:30:58. > :31:03.they're going to do on free trade with the rest of the world. All

:31:04. > :31:11.right. The line was - we do not need to be in the single market. When you

:31:12. > :31:16.are 5'6" it's not often you say size matters. But size matters awe the

:31:17. > :31:28.bigger you are the -- because the bigger you are the more cloud you

:31:29. > :31:33.have. -- cloud we have. Clout. If you are a company in China, America,

:31:34. > :31:39.India, and you want to do business with 500 million customers, you can

:31:40. > :31:42.have your headquarters in London and have a gateway to 500 million

:31:43. > :31:46.customers. Boris you should know better. I speak to businesses around

:31:47. > :31:49.our city every day of the week. You know what, half a million jobs in

:31:50. > :31:54.London directly dependent on the European Union. I speak to companies

:31:55. > :32:00.around the world, more than 60% of the world's leading companies, Sony,

:32:01. > :32:03.AIG insurance, have their European headquarters, guess where? Here in

:32:04. > :32:10.London. Half our exports goes to Europe. Boris, why have you suddenly

:32:11. > :32:15.changed your mind? APPLAUSE

:32:16. > :32:21.All right. Since we have a former Mayor of London and the present

:32:22. > :32:26.Mayor of London... I think we've heard an amazing amount of running

:32:27. > :32:31.down of our city and our country. We're proud of our city. The

:32:32. > :32:35.astonishing thing is that they underestimate our ability to do

:32:36. > :32:42.better deals if we're left to do it on our own. Let me give you an

:32:43. > :32:45.example. Because of the EU system, our entire trade negotiating policy

:32:46. > :32:50.is handed over to the EU Commission, where only 3. 6% of the officials

:32:51. > :32:57.actually come from our country. It is no wonder that they have not

:32:58. > :33:03.been, as Andrea rightly says, they have not done free trade deals with

:33:04. > :33:07.China, India, the great economies of the world, including America, to the

:33:08. > :33:16.extent, to the point where we - Just one question. We cannot because the

:33:17. > :33:22.EU is in charge of our trade negotiations export Haggas. We

:33:23. > :33:33.cannot export Haggas to America! Come on. Come on. All right. Boris.

:33:34. > :33:36.Boris. Let's leave the haggis. Can you name me one country in the world

:33:37. > :33:43.that has said it will give us a better deal if we come out of the

:33:44. > :33:53.EU? The United States. Obama says we would go to the back of the queue.

:33:54. > :33:58.All right. On that note, we have to move on. We've got a lot more to

:33:59. > :34:02.talk about. We take a pause here where we can cool down. They'll warm

:34:03. > :34:07.up again in a moment. Over to the other end of the hall here to hear

:34:08. > :34:10.reaction from her guests to the debate so far.

:34:11. > :34:14.David, throughout the course of the programme, we're going to be hearing

:34:15. > :34:18.from this panel as well on the key issues. There are ten of them in

:34:19. > :34:23.all, five from the Remain side and five from the Leave side. Let's

:34:24. > :34:29.start our economic discussion over here with Priti Patel, Conservative

:34:30. > :34:33.MP and Employment Minister. Are you part of a Government that asked

:34:34. > :34:38.people to vote Ono the basis of not taking aI risk with the economy. How

:34:39. > :34:41.does that square with what you're asking people to do now? We've heard

:34:42. > :34:45.clearly tonight that we're the optimists. We have a brighter,

:34:46. > :34:50.prosperous future outside the European Union, a complete contrast

:34:51. > :34:54.to the Remain side that want to constantly talk Britain down. We've

:34:55. > :34:57.heard clearly about the freedom to succeed, we can negotiate new trade

:34:58. > :35:00.deals. It's pessimistic to hear from the Remain side that they're not

:35:01. > :35:04.even interested in doing that. They don't want new partnerships. They

:35:05. > :35:08.don't want new relationships. They clearly don't want to trade with the

:35:09. > :35:12.2. 2 billion potential customers that exist globally in the

:35:13. > :35:18.Commonwealth countries. That's about the future of our economy. Before I

:35:19. > :35:24.go to the Remain side, I want to turn to you Tim Martin, founder and

:35:25. > :35:28.chairman of Wetherspoons. Answer the charge that leaving the EU would

:35:29. > :35:32.roll back workers' rights at a company like yours. It's complete

:35:33. > :35:40.and utter nonsense. She picked on us for some reason. We pay 40% of our

:35:41. > :35:46.profits as bonuses to staff that work in our pubs. No-one gets a

:35:47. > :35:49.fortune, but I should have a reply to that, no-one gets a fortune, but

:35:50. > :35:53.apart from John Lewis partnerships, so far as I'm aware, no-one pays a

:35:54. > :35:57.bigger bonus to our staff. The rights that workers have now... We

:35:58. > :36:03.will certainly not give up our workers' rights. Why do that? We

:36:04. > :36:08.paid above what we had to for many years, long before the EU told us

:36:09. > :36:19.what to do. Let me get a different perspective from business. This time

:36:20. > :36:22.from Justin King, who ran one of our biggest supermarkets, Sainsbury's,

:36:23. > :36:26.for ten years. Where Remain? This is presented as if it's a straight

:36:27. > :36:29.choice. I think we can have the best of both worlds. We have a place in

:36:30. > :36:32.Europe, which is unique and has allowed our country to prosper.

:36:33. > :36:37.Almost everything the Remain camp is saying we ought to do, we can do

:36:38. > :36:40.whilst still part of Europe. Germany's, four of their biggest

:36:41. > :36:46.trading partners are outside of Europe. We are going to see real

:36:47. > :36:50.damage to our economy. That's bad for small business, they'll be the

:36:51. > :36:54.first to lose jobs. We'll see prices go up because our currency is going

:36:55. > :36:59.to be hurt and a poorer economy means all the services, the taxes

:37:00. > :37:07.and vibrant economy pay more will be harmed. You're sitting next to Sarah

:37:08. > :37:10.Woollaston, until a short time ago you I Would Do Anything For Love

:37:11. > :37:15.have been on the other side. I've listened to the evidence. It's clear

:37:16. > :37:19.our NHS, health research will be hit if we leave. There will be less

:37:20. > :37:24.money for those services and it will hit the workforce. It will hit our

:37:25. > :37:28.leadership role in research and development and cooperation with our

:37:29. > :37:32.European partners. There will be a very serious Brexit penalty for the

:37:33. > :37:37.NHS, make no mistake. If people are caring about the NHS and research

:37:38. > :37:41.when they make their vote, I would say vote to Remain with our European

:37:42. > :37:47.partners. I will get a couple of quick thoughts. I want to turn to

:37:48. > :37:51.you, from women for Britain. Work for Morrisons. What do you think

:37:52. > :37:55.about what Justin King said about prices going up. I want to focus on

:37:56. > :38:00.the rights, particularly what the Remain side were saying. We had the

:38:01. > :38:04.first Equal Pay Act by the first female minister of state three years

:38:05. > :38:11.before we joined the European Union. We have the sex discrimination act,

:38:12. > :38:14.the domestic violent act -- violence act, and Margaret Thatcher the first

:38:15. > :38:17.female Prime Minister without European Union assistance. Are you

:38:18. > :38:21.seriously saying those rights and protections are just going to

:38:22. > :38:27.disappear overnight? Of course not. A final thought now from Tim Farron.

:38:28. > :38:31.You could dismiss the economic arguments as project fear. Nine out

:38:32. > :38:38.of ten experts say we're better off in the European Union. Michael Gove

:38:39. > :38:41.said we've had enough of experts, that's perhaps an explanation of why

:38:42. > :38:44.he was such a dreadful Education Secretary.

:38:45. > :38:50.CHEERING When I send my kids to school, I

:38:51. > :38:55.want them to be taught by experts not the bloke down the pub. I went

:38:56. > :38:58.to a small business in my constituency, they are exporting to

:38:59. > :39:03.Romania. They provide play equipment over there. That contract is

:39:04. > :39:05.entirely contingent, if we vote out on Friday, they lose that contract.

:39:06. > :39:14.That's the case for hundreds of businesses across the country. Thank

:39:15. > :39:21.you very much. More from this panel later on. David, back to you.

:39:22. > :39:29.Now, the second topic is immigration. The second big argument

:39:30. > :39:33.in this whole case. Before the questions and the debate, a reminder

:39:34. > :39:37.of the question issues identified ash the subject -- around the

:39:38. > :39:41.subject of immigration. 508 million people live in the

:39:42. > :39:45.European Union. Freedom of movement means that all EU citizens have the

:39:46. > :39:51.right to live and work in any member state. Last year net migration from

:39:52. > :39:56.other EU countries, the difference between the number of people coming

:39:57. > :40:02.into the UK and going out, was 184,000. From elsewhere in the wore,

:40:03. > :40:07.it was 188,000. The European figure has risen a lot since the EU

:40:08. > :40:12.expanded in 2004. There are now around three million citizens of

:40:13. > :40:17.other EU countries living in the UK. An estimated 1. 2 million British

:40:18. > :40:21.citizens living elsewhere in the EU. Because the UK is not a member of

:40:22. > :40:25.the border-free Schengen area, anyone arriving here has to show a

:40:26. > :40:30.passport and they can be refused entry if they're judged to represent

:40:31. > :40:35.a serious threat to society. Last year, this happened to about 2,000

:40:36. > :40:41.people from the EU. What about the future? Five countries have been

:40:42. > :40:45.accepted as candidates for EU membership, Albania, Montenegro,

:40:46. > :40:49.Macedonia, Serbia and Turkey. Current EU states have a veto over

:40:50. > :40:53.any new members. Leave campaigners say staying in the EU means we won't

:40:54. > :40:58.be able to control our borders or the level of immigration. Remain

:40:59. > :41:03.supporters say EU immigration is good for the economy and planned

:41:04. > :41:07.curbs on in-work benefits will reduce the incentive to move here.

:41:08. > :41:12.So what has been the effect on Britain of EU migration? And is

:41:13. > :41:18.immigration best managed within the EU or outside? So there's the issue,

:41:19. > :41:25.our first question is from Jayne Williams, who is a Remain supporter.

:41:26. > :41:30.My family and I have had first hand experience recently with the NHS.

:41:31. > :41:33.How would it manage if we leave the EU, given the UK's inability to

:41:34. > :41:43.train and retain sufficient doctors and nurses? Boris Johnson. I think

:41:44. > :41:48.the first thing we should do tonight in a discussion about immigration is

:41:49. > :41:54.celebrate immigrants and immigration and everything they do for our

:41:55. > :41:58.country. Because I speak entirely personally, they are, my family has

:41:59. > :42:01.benefitted massively from immigration and so, I know, have

:42:02. > :42:06.millions of people watching us tonight. The crucial thing, though,

:42:07. > :42:11.is to look in an informed way at what is going on, look at the

:42:12. > :42:13.numbers, look at the pressure that is large-scale uncontrolled

:42:14. > :42:20.immigration is causing for public services, such as the NHS. And the

:42:21. > :42:23.downwards pressure on wages that I've already mentioned and that

:42:24. > :42:30.Sadiq Khan has discussed. Look at the way in which we are forced by

:42:31. > :42:36.our imbalanced system to push away people who might contribute mightily

:42:37. > :42:40.to our NHS in favour of uncontrolled access to 510 million people from

:42:41. > :42:43.the rest of the EU. What we think should happen is an

:42:44. > :42:49.Australian-style, points-based system, so we get the people we need

:42:50. > :42:52.for the NHS and indeed all our other businesses and services and the only

:42:53. > :43:01.way you can do that is to vote Leave and take back control on Thursday.

:43:02. > :43:04.Sadiq Khan. Firstly, Australia has double our

:43:05. > :43:10.immigration, bearing in mind their population. I don't want facts to

:43:11. > :43:13.get in the way Boris, of course, we need to have a fair immigration

:43:14. > :43:18.policy. It shouldn't be a free for all. You don't hear me say this

:43:19. > :43:25.often, David Cameron deserves credit for the deal he negotiated with the

:43:26. > :43:29.EU. What it means is you pay in before you can take out. You have to

:43:30. > :43:34.work four years before you can receive full benefits. Here's the

:43:35. > :43:42.nub of it, immigration has brought huge economic, cultural and social

:43:43. > :43:47.benefits to our country. The EU migrants more than 130,000 work in

:43:48. > :43:50.the NHS and social care, thank you EU migrants work in our schools and

:43:51. > :43:58.our construction sector. Thank you. More than 1. 5 million Brits

:43:59. > :44:03.recommend ployed by companies owned by EU citizens here. Thank you. Are

:44:04. > :44:07.employed. You might start off saying how wonderful immigration is. Your

:44:08. > :44:10.campaign hasn't been project fear. It's been project hate as far as

:44:11. > :44:21.immigration's concerned. CHEERING Gisela.

:44:22. > :44:33.All right. All right. I am an immigrant. Sorry. I am an immigrant.

:44:34. > :44:39.I'm also a mother and a grandmother. I think it is important that as we

:44:40. > :44:44.plan for our public services, like the NHS, like the schools, like

:44:45. > :44:48.housing, that we actually can plan ahead properly. And if we have

:44:49. > :44:52.uncontrolled immigration, with the best will of the world, we will have

:44:53. > :44:56.situations, like in the West Midlands, where there are 50,000

:44:57. > :45:02.primary school places missing. This is simply a statement of fact. If

:45:03. > :45:10.you cannot plan. What I object to... APPLAUSE

:45:11. > :45:14.I think this is really important. The current immigration policies

:45:15. > :45:20.unfairly discriminates against non-EU citizens.

:45:21. > :45:30.APPLAUSE. Frances O'Grady. Jane made a really, really important point in

:45:31. > :45:34.her question about our NHS. Let's not forget the NHS was built by and

:45:35. > :45:42.for working people, and we should all be really proud of it.

:45:43. > :45:47.APPLAUSE. But we've got thousands of EU nationals and from all ousands of

:45:48. > :45:52.EU nationals and from all over the world - nurses, midwives, doctors,

:45:53. > :45:57.other health professionals, the whole health team, working to save

:45:58. > :46:01.lives and keep us healthier. We should give them credit where it is

:46:02. > :46:06.due and recognise there would be a staffing crisis if we lost that

:46:07. > :46:09.staff. There would be longer waiting lists, fewer life-saving drugs.

:46:10. > :46:15.Drugs. David, if I may, I've got a really important question that I

:46:16. > :46:24.just learned about today. Because today we learned that Vote Leave

:46:25. > :46:27.took a 600,000 pound donation from a former member of the BNP. Are you

:46:28. > :46:43.going to pay it back? APPLAUSE. A brief answer from one of

:46:44. > :46:46.you to that question. That is unworthy of this debate.

:46:47. > :46:52.CHEERING. There are millions of people who've very real and genuine

:46:53. > :46:57.concerns about the impact of free movement on this country and who've

:46:58. > :47:02.donated to a campaign to Vote Leave and take back control. The problem

:47:03. > :47:06.with free movement, for me as a mum it is not just about uncontrollable

:47:07. > :47:11.numbers coming here and putting pressure on public services. It's

:47:12. > :47:15.all about security, for all of our children, for all of us. Free

:47:16. > :47:20.movement does not allow us to even ask people if they have a criminal

:47:21. > :47:25.record. The European Court has overruled British judges in being

:47:26. > :47:31.able to deport criminals. We know Ron Noble, the former head of

:47:32. > :47:35.Interpol, has said that the Schengen-free area in Europe is like

:47:36. > :47:38.hanging out a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe. It is creating

:47:39. > :47:45.enormous problems. APPLAUSE. Before I go to the other

:47:46. > :47:51.side, can I remind you of Jane's question? The second half was, how

:47:52. > :47:59.would we manage if we left the EU given the UK's inability to retain

:48:00. > :48:02.doctors and nurses? As Gisela said, at the moment uncontrollable

:48:03. > :48:07.immigration from the EU means we discriminate against 92% of the

:48:08. > :48:12.world. There are brilliant health professionals in South-East Asia, in

:48:13. > :48:16.China, in South America who would love to come here, but we have to

:48:17. > :48:19.put up the barriers to them because we are required to allow people to

:48:20. > :48:26.come here from the EU, whether or not they are trained to support our

:48:27. > :48:33.health services. Thank you. Ruth Davidson. Immigration is hard and it

:48:34. > :48:37.is really tempting to believe that there's one single silver bullet

:48:38. > :48:46.like leaving theic that can fix it all. Yes, take back control. But

:48:47. > :48:50.there is. We need a proper, credible plan to manage migration. They don't

:48:51. > :48:54.have a credible plan, where you used to be able to come and take out

:48:55. > :48:58.without putting in. That's changing. They say they want a points system.

:48:59. > :49:05.Migration Watch says it will mean more people coming from outside the

:49:06. > :49:08.UK to live here rather than yeah. Boris wants an amnesty for illegal

:49:09. > :49:13.immigrants. They have had a poster in this campaign but they don't have

:49:14. > :49:20.a plan for managing migration. There isn't a silver bullet.

:49:21. > :49:25.APPLAUSE.. Gisela? I want to respond to some of the I think unnecessary

:49:26. > :49:31.invective we heard earlier on by pointing out that somebody on the

:49:32. > :49:38.panel opposite said only a couple of years ago, in the past we were too

:49:39. > :49:41.quick to dismiss concerns about immigration, even worse accuse

:49:42. > :49:47.people of prejudice. Who do you think that was? It was Sadiq Khan,

:49:48. > :49:52.again. I do agree with Sadiq, you need a grown up approach to this.

:49:53. > :49:57.I'm passionately a believer in immigration but it's got to be

:49:58. > :50:02.controlled. When you've got numbers running at 330,000 net globally,

:50:03. > :50:08.184,000 net from the EU, 77,000 coming without even the offer of a

:50:09. > :50:15.job last year, it's obviously time to take back control, and the answer

:50:16. > :50:20.to your question is have the Australian-style points-based

:50:21. > :50:23.system. Boris, all of us accept that there are legitimate concerns about

:50:24. > :50:27.immigration that need to be addressed. You are not being honest

:50:28. > :50:30.by admitting you haven't got a silver bullet. You are scaring

:50:31. > :50:39.people to vote to leave the EU. You are telling lies. Turkey is not set

:50:40. > :50:43.to join the EU. Boris, you are telling lies and you are scaring

:50:44. > :50:46.people, because you've used taxpayers' money to put out an

:50:47. > :50:54.election leaflet that says Turkey set to join. There's a map, there's

:50:55. > :50:59.a map. This map shows in red, Turkey, but the only countries named

:51:00. > :51:02.in this map are Syria and Iraq. That's scaremongering Boris and you

:51:03. > :51:13.should be ashamed. CHEERING. Gisela?

:51:14. > :51:19.I would quite like the real David Cameron to step forward and tell us

:51:20. > :51:26.what the policy on Turkey is. Because on the one hand he tells us

:51:27. > :51:32.it will be the year 3000, or is it now 30 years? On the other hand, we

:51:33. > :51:38.are spending ?1.9 billion of your money to accelerate accession of

:51:39. > :51:43.Turkey. We've got a special section in the embassy to deal with speeding

:51:44. > :51:47.up accession. He has just three months ago signed a joint statement

:51:48. > :51:53.with all the other Heads of Government of the European Union to

:51:54. > :51:57.accelerate accession. They are negotiating visa access of 1 million

:51:58. > :52:01.from Turkey. He refuse to do so say he'll use his veto. Which David

:52:02. > :52:09.Cameron are we going to believe? APPLAUSE. Ruth Davidson? Let me

:52:10. > :52:14.answer on Turkish accession and let me say this. It is not going to

:52:15. > :52:19.happen. It's just simply not on the cards. Not my words, Boris Johnson

:52:20. > :52:23.said that on LBC Radio two months ago. Those were the words of Boris

:52:24. > :52:28.Johnson two months ago. What's changed in two months, Boris? What's

:52:29. > :52:33.changed in two months? It is simply not on the cards. It's Government

:52:34. > :52:39.policy. It's Government policy. As far as I know last time I looked,

:52:40. > :52:42.the Government wants to accelerate Turkish membership. I think Gisela

:52:43. > :52:47.posed the dilemma clearly. It is something they want to happen in the

:52:48. > :52:51.year 3000 or something they wish to accelerate. I think it is perfectly

:52:52. > :52:56.reasonable to ask people whether they would rather proceed on the

:52:57. > :53:01.basis of Government promises on immigration, or whether they would

:53:02. > :53:05.rather take back control and institute a points-based system that

:53:06. > :53:09.the electorate could actually hold the Government to account? The

:53:10. > :53:14.problem at the moment... CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. The problem

:53:15. > :53:17.at the moment. Boris! I'm trying to make a balance between the two

:53:18. > :53:22.sides. I was asked the question. Forgive me. I know, but when you

:53:23. > :53:29.talk at length, I have to go... Sadiq? Let's deal with this big fat

:53:30. > :53:32.lie once and for all. Turkey isn't about to join. Until three months

:53:33. > :53:41.ago you knew that was the case, Boris Johnson. In 1987 Turkey first

:53:42. > :53:47.applied to join. There are 35 conditions, chapters... Allow him to

:53:48. > :53:51.have his say, Boris. Of the 35 chanters, only one has been met. At

:53:52. > :53:55.this rate it will take to the year 3000 this will they reach the

:53:56. > :54:01.criteria. Uribe using the ruse of Turkey to scare people to vote to

:54:02. > :54:08.leave. Youened aboth though there is no chance of them joining soon.

:54:09. > :54:13.APPLAUSE.. We are moving on. Can I just say one thing to you in the

:54:14. > :54:17.audience, I did say at the beginning of the debate, applause fine. Please

:54:18. > :54:22.don't shout out, because you drown out the debate here and people at

:54:23. > :54:26.home can't hear it. If you could just restrain yourselves, applaud if

:54:27. > :54:29.you want to, but don't try to conduct a second debate with the

:54:30. > :54:36.speakers on the panel. We are going to our next question, from Karim, a

:54:37. > :54:41.Leave supporter. As a young working class man, I feel at the back of the

:54:42. > :54:47.queue for entry level jobs, housing and public services. How many people

:54:48. > :54:52.each year can the UK reasonably cope with? Frances O'Grady, your turn to

:54:53. > :54:57.start. APPLAUSE. Well, there is no doubt

:54:58. > :55:03.that we need to manage migration better. You're right, Karim, there

:55:04. > :55:08.should be more opportunities, there should be more jobs, and not just

:55:09. > :55:14.more jobs, better jobs. But I have to say I get fed up, migrants always

:55:15. > :55:18.getting the blame for something that politicians in Westminster ought to

:55:19. > :55:27.be doing something about. APPLAUSE. Because it seems to me

:55:28. > :55:31.that zero hours, I want to tackle zero hours and I suspect everybody

:55:32. > :55:36.else in this hall does too. Westminster can do something about

:55:37. > :55:41.that. When it comes to paying a decent wage, that's Westminster's

:55:42. > :55:45.job. And we really should be investing in more new homes, in

:55:46. > :55:49.better public services where we have pressures on communities, our

:55:50. > :55:53.schools and hospitals. Instead of cuts, we need investment. But

:55:54. > :55:57.finally I've got to say why I get fed up with migrants being blamed

:55:58. > :56:02.is, where did all this start? The big pressure on our pay and jobs

:56:03. > :56:09.wasn't to do with low-paid migrant workers. It was those greedy bankers

:56:10. > :56:15.crashing the economy, and if we leave will crash it again. Let's try

:56:16. > :56:19.within reason to stick to the points we've been asked to raise. Rim

:56:20. > :56:24.railed the point - how many people each year can the UK reasonably cope

:56:25. > :56:28.with. Gisela? And that's the heart of the matter, the point you've just

:56:29. > :56:31.raised, because any Government with the best will of the world when it

:56:32. > :56:36.has to plan its public services, whether it is schools, whether it is

:56:37. > :56:40.the NHS, whether it is training how many nurses and doctors we need,

:56:41. > :56:43.housing, to get on the housing ladder, all those things are

:56:44. > :56:48.impossible with the best will of the world if you have got uncontrolled

:56:49. > :56:52.numbers comes in. Ave got uncontrolled numbers comes in. --

:56:53. > :56:58.coming in. An Australian-type points system allows you to adjust things.

:56:59. > :57:01.Australia happens to want more immigration because it is a large

:57:02. > :57:05.country, but you want to reduce it. The one thing I find extraordinary,

:57:06. > :57:10.uncontrolled immigration has allowed big companies not to do the kind of

:57:11. > :57:14.training of our workers they ought to be doing, because they are able

:57:15. > :57:20.to recruit cheap from the rest of Europe.

:57:21. > :57:25.APPLAUSE. Ruth, Karim's question was he feels, he preface was he feels at

:57:26. > :57:28.the back of the queue for entry level jobs for housing and public

:57:29. > :57:34.services is. How many can the UK cope with? We do need to bring down

:57:35. > :57:41.migration and looking at the skills you want to bring here. You used too

:57:42. > :57:44.be able to come from the EU and take out the day you arrive. Now you have

:57:45. > :57:49.to wait four years before you can take out full benefits. If you don't

:57:50. > :57:54.find a job within six months, you can be asked to leave. Gisela talks

:57:55. > :58:01.about public services, schools and hospitals, I don't think you can

:58:02. > :58:07.discount the contribution migrants make, 150,000 in schools in England

:58:08. > :58:11.and Wales. But my big issue is this. You don't fund schools and hospitals

:58:12. > :58:15.and you don't control immigration by crashing the economy. That's what

:58:16. > :58:21.leaving theic would do. APPLAUSE. Andrea? That is just

:58:22. > :58:28.simply not the case. If we vote Leave and take back control this

:58:29. > :58:31.Thursday, we will have a ?10 billion a year independence dividend that we

:58:32. > :58:37.will be able to spend on our priorities. Not true. The Bank of

:58:38. > :58:40.England has been very clear in its report, that uncontrolled

:58:41. > :58:45.immigration has had downward pressure on wages in this country.

:58:46. > :58:50.They simply haven't had a pay rise for years. Not only that, but every

:58:51. > :58:55.family in this country knows how difficult it is to get the primary

:58:56. > :58:58.school place of your choice, to get a doctor's appointment, and yes to

:58:59. > :59:02.afford rents or to get on to the housing ladder. These are the really

:59:03. > :59:10.legitimate concerns and the way to get over that is by voting Leave and

:59:11. > :59:17.takeing back control on Thursday. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. I've got to

:59:18. > :59:23.come back on this. Immigration is a concern to a lot of people but

:59:24. > :59:30.leaving theic isn't the answer. Yes, it is.

:59:31. > :59:36.CHEERING. But it's not. How is it having more control if you have less

:59:37. > :59:40.money in your pocket as Martin Lewis the money expert says? How is it

:59:41. > :59:44.more control if we have a recession as the Bank of England says. How is

:59:45. > :59:50.it more control if we are not investing in the schools and

:59:51. > :59:54.hospitals and GP practices, if Karim can't get a job because local

:59:55. > :59:58.employers are suffering, or how is it control if it is double the

:59:59. > :00:02.immigration, and the points system, more control if there are businesses

:00:03. > :00:06.from China, India and America choosing Germany and France over

:00:07. > :00:09.London. How is it more control if young people don't have the

:00:10. > :00:17.opportunity that we have? CHEERING.

:00:18. > :00:25.I think Boris, it's your turn. Let me say directly to Sadiq Khan, I

:00:26. > :00:29.think there's a lot of agreement around this panel. And they should

:00:30. > :00:32.come over and join our side. Everything I've heard tonight is

:00:33. > :00:35.their admission that something is wrong with our immigration system.

:00:36. > :00:42.There's only one way to fix it and that is to take back control and day

:00:43. > :00:46.after day, in the last week, we've seen senior figures in the Labour

:00:47. > :00:47.Party, Jeremy Corbyn this morning, he's the leader...

:00:48. > :00:51.LAUGHTER Said there was no way of controlling

:00:52. > :00:57.immigration as long as we're in the EU. Tom Watson, Harriet Harman,

:00:58. > :01:01.they're all finally accepting that the deal that was done did

:01:02. > :01:05.absolutely nothing to restore control of our immigration system to

:01:06. > :01:08.this country. There is only one way to achieve that.

:01:09. > :01:12.APPLAUSE There is only one way to achieve

:01:13. > :01:18.that and that is to vote Leave and take back control and put in the

:01:19. > :01:25.Australian-style, points-based system that makes sure that we get

:01:26. > :01:30.the people that we need to help our business, our NHS, but do not - I

:01:31. > :01:37.find it a bit rich to listen to you... Boris, I find it a little bit

:01:38. > :01:42.rich to hear people saying they're worried about wages, when your

:01:43. > :01:50.Government has imposed a pay cap on six million public servants year

:01:51. > :01:56.after year after year after year. Can I also say, Karim's question was

:01:57. > :02:01.about numbers. I think the Leave campaign is selling people a big

:02:02. > :02:05.con. Because you're not promising to reduce numbers. You have never

:02:06. > :02:11.promised to reduce numbers. Yes, we have. And you're pretending that you

:02:12. > :02:15.are going to reduce numbers. It's a big con. Don't believe them. This is

:02:16. > :02:24.a one way ticket. If we're out, we're out. We will pay with our jobs

:02:25. > :02:28.and wage it's we go. The accusation is that you've never

:02:29. > :02:32.promised on the Leave campaign to reduce numbers, is that true? What

:02:33. > :02:35.an Australian-style, points-based system would allow you is to decide

:02:36. > :02:39.what the numbers are. At the moment, you can't. But can I just make

:02:40. > :02:44.another point, this debate today actually isn't about - Sorry, can

:02:45. > :02:53.you answer her point. APPLAUSE

:02:54. > :03:00.Has the Leave campaign promised to reduce numbers? We say you take back

:03:01. > :03:05.controll and you can decide. What we have not done is what the Prime

:03:06. > :03:11.Minister has done and actually prom ilsed he would reduce it to the tens

:03:12. > :03:15.of thousands, even though he couldn't do it. You're not

:03:16. > :03:18.promising, it's a con. This is not about the six of us here on the

:03:19. > :03:21.podium and the debate, this is about my children's future, your

:03:22. > :03:24.children's future, our grand children's future. I think unless we

:03:25. > :03:28.take back control over something as important as that we won't be able

:03:29. > :03:37.to provide the public services they deserve.

:03:38. > :03:43.APPLAUSE I do just have to remind people at

:03:44. > :03:54.home in case they're mistaking that there are mums and dads and nans and

:03:55. > :03:59.granddads on this side of the argument. The immigration issue is a

:04:00. > :04:02.complex one which needs a grown up argument. We're not having it

:04:03. > :04:06.tonight. Britain deserve better than people who say they have a quick fix

:04:07. > :04:13.but won't tell you what it means for Britain. We need a much bigger

:04:14. > :04:22.conversation than this. That just is completely nonsense. This country

:04:23. > :04:27.will do incredibly well if we take back control and vote Leave. What we

:04:28. > :04:31.will be able to do is to manage the numbers of people who are coming to

:04:32. > :04:35.this country so that we can be fair to those who come here and fair to

:04:36. > :04:40.those who already live here. What we've had for a number of years now

:04:41. > :04:43.is a situation where people's pay is down, where the skills training is

:04:44. > :04:48.down, where there's pressure on all of our public services, including

:04:49. > :04:53.school places, doctors places and the housing market. The only way we

:04:54. > :05:01.will ever get that back under control is if we vote Leave on this

:05:02. > :05:07.Thursday. All right. Thank you very much. We'll take a brief pause again

:05:08. > :05:15.and go to the other side of the hall.

:05:16. > :05:19.Immigration has been an important part of this debate for the Leave

:05:20. > :05:26.side. So let me start our discussion of it with the Remain side. Caroline

:05:27. > :05:29.Lucas, Green Party MP, how would you address the real concerns that

:05:30. > :05:33.people have about the impact of migration on housing, on school

:05:34. > :05:36.places, on health? It's exactly about the real concerns, the real

:05:37. > :05:40.concerns is about pressure. But that's not caused by immigration.

:05:41. > :05:44.That is caused by successive governments' failure to invest in

:05:45. > :05:49.those services. We have heard that you are far more likely to find

:05:50. > :05:54.someone from another EU country treating you in the NHS rather than

:05:55. > :06:00.getting in ahead of you. Migration is going to be a large part of this.

:06:01. > :06:03.We have the freedom to live and learn, study and work in 27 other

:06:04. > :06:08.countries ourselves. What an amazing gift is that? When you consider that

:06:09. > :06:12.people coming to our country are bringing with them not only benefits

:06:13. > :06:15.to our society and our culture, but also to our economy. Let us

:06:16. > :06:19.ring-fence the money they are paying into our tax system and use that to

:06:20. > :06:23.build leisure centres and libraries in those places under pressure, so

:06:24. > :06:31.everybody can benefit. There's a two-way street here. I want to get a

:06:32. > :06:35.thought from the SNP. Your party's rare in British politics, it has

:06:36. > :06:39.campaigned for more immigration. I don't care if it's unpopular. Let's

:06:40. > :06:43.stick with the facts. Migrants contribute more than they take out

:06:44. > :06:47.of the system. Let me just say this much. I have been so depressed at

:06:48. > :06:50.the state of the debate around immigration and the worst of that we

:06:51. > :06:56.saw last week, when Nigel Farage unveiled a poster that I'm going to

:06:57. > :07:02.say it was xenophobic and frankly, bordering on racist. Dianne James

:07:03. > :07:06.from Ukip here should hang her head in shame and apologise to the

:07:07. > :07:10.British people for lowering this debate into the worst type of

:07:11. > :07:12.debate. Migrants contribute. They contribute to our public services.

:07:13. > :07:20.They contribute to our economy. They even contribute to our cuisine. And

:07:21. > :07:26.thank God for it. Let me turn to Dianne James now. Hang your head in

:07:27. > :07:30.shame. Nigel Farage has apologised. Let's put a reality check, please.

:07:31. > :07:35.That photograph - Are awe shamed of the poster? That photograph went up

:07:36. > :07:39.on social media the minute the MP was murdered. It was taken down.

:07:40. > :07:44.That picture and pictures exactly the same appeared in the media well

:07:45. > :07:47.before in the early part of this year, highlighting what is

:07:48. > :07:53.completely wrong with the Schengen system, what is completely wrong

:07:54. > :07:58.with the EU fundamental tenent of freedom ever movement of people. I

:07:59. > :08:01.want to turn to Tony Parsons. Is immigration part of why you want to

:08:02. > :08:05.leave the EU? It's definitely part of. It I personally have nothing

:08:06. > :08:10.against migrants. I like them so much I married one. I think it's a

:08:11. > :08:13.bit rich that the Remain side are so devoid of any arguments that they

:08:14. > :08:17.have to smear us as racists and bigots because we're not. Because we

:08:18. > :08:25.love our country. We love our country. And I have not heard one

:08:26. > :08:29.argument about how if we're too timid, if we're too frightened, too

:08:30. > :08:33.small to leave this rotting carbuncle of the European Union, how

:08:34. > :08:39.do we accommodate a third of a million people? Are you up for

:08:40. > :08:42.sharing a platform with Ukip that unveiled that poster? I think

:08:43. > :08:46.there's been a broad range of opinion. You can laugh all the like,

:08:47. > :08:53.but you're so desperate, because you have no answers about how we build a

:08:54. > :08:57.city the size of Wolverhampton every year because you can't answer it.

:08:58. > :09:03.Thank you. I want to turn back to the Remain side. I want to turn to

:09:04. > :09:07.Justin King. Your business, the business you used to run,

:09:08. > :09:11.Sainsbury's, could just employ more British workers if we said goodbye

:09:12. > :09:13.to freedom of movement. And they do. Sainsbury's and many other

:09:14. > :09:18.businesses. There are more people born in the UK in work in the UK

:09:19. > :09:24.today than at any time in our history. That is a fact. There are

:09:25. > :09:28.more people in employment in total in this country than at any time in

:09:29. > :09:33.our history. That's part of our economic success. Over 80% of

:09:34. > :09:38.migrants are in work net, as we've heard, time and again, contributing

:09:39. > :09:43.to our economy. That's a powerful part of our economic success. Answer

:09:44. > :09:48.the point there about how we can cope with the population increase,

:09:49. > :09:53.you care about the NHS, you're a former GP. How can we cope? It's

:09:54. > :09:56.shameful to blame migrants for queues in the NHS. The queues will

:09:57. > :10:00.get longer if we leave the EU on this Thursday. Absolutely make no

:10:01. > :10:05.mistake, because there'll be less money to fund the NHS. There will be

:10:06. > :10:08.fewer workers able to move here freely to work. There's another

:10:09. > :10:13.point I'd like to make. I have heard from NHS staff, who have told me

:10:14. > :10:17.that they now feel unwelcome in this country. What a disgraceful

:10:18. > :10:22.situation. I want to say thank you to all those people working in our

:10:23. > :10:31.NHS, please stay. We want you to stay.

:10:32. > :10:32.We'll hear from this panel once more, before the end of the

:10:33. > :10:39.programme. We will indeed. Now we have so far

:10:40. > :10:43.this evening talked about the referendum outcome, how it would

:10:44. > :10:49.affect the economy and immigration. Our final half hour, we're going to

:10:50. > :10:54.debate the big issues of democracy, security and Britain's place in the

:10:55. > :11:00.world. Just before we do, a reminder of how our relationship with the EU

:11:01. > :11:05.has developed over the years. The EU began in 1951 as the European

:11:06. > :11:10.coal and steel community, which had six members. The idea was to create

:11:11. > :11:16.an economic area to bring European nations closer to together in the

:11:17. > :11:21.wake of World War II. In 1973, the UK joined what had, by then, become

:11:22. > :11:26.the European economic community. And in 1975, the British people voted,

:11:27. > :11:32.for the first time, on the UK's membership, deciding to remain part

:11:33. > :11:38.of the EEC or Common Market. In 1993, the treaty on European Union

:11:39. > :11:42.was signed in Maastricht. It was widely regarded as a step change for

:11:43. > :11:45.the European project because it legally established the EU as a

:11:46. > :11:51.political as well as an economic union. It also laid the foundations

:11:52. > :11:55.for the introduction of the sing the currency, which Britain chose not to

:11:56. > :12:00.adopt. In 2004, more countries joined the EU. It now has 28 members

:12:01. > :12:06.and there is the prospect of new nations joining, if they meet the

:12:07. > :12:10.criteria for entry. But current EU states have a veto over any new

:12:11. > :12:16.members. Senior EU leaders are talking about the creation of a

:12:17. > :12:19.European Army, and a new European intelligence agency. Leave

:12:20. > :12:24.campaigners say the EU has embarked on a relentless journey to create a

:12:25. > :12:29.European superstate. Remain supporters say Britain can opt out

:12:30. > :12:33.of future integration. The choice at this referendum is to decide which

:12:34. > :12:39.path is best for Britain - to Remain or to Leave.

:12:40. > :12:43.So, our first question in this section is from Douglas Warren. He's

:12:44. > :12:50.a Leave supporter. Thank you, David. 40 years ago, the

:12:51. > :12:54.UK voted to join a Common Market. If we vote to remain on Thursday, how

:12:55. > :13:00.can we be sure that in another 40 years, we won't find ourselves in a

:13:01. > :13:09.United States of Europe? APPLAUSE

:13:10. > :13:14.Britain is a sovereign, independent country, just like Germany, just

:13:15. > :13:18.like France. We retain control over our defence, over the pound, over

:13:19. > :13:24.interest rates, over what we do in our schools, hospitals, our public

:13:25. > :13:27.transport. We chose to join the EU and we're having a referendum to

:13:28. > :13:33.decide whether Remain or Leave. I tell you why I think it's important

:13:34. > :13:37.to Remain. If we choose to Remain, it means we're a member of a single

:13:38. > :13:40.market of 500 million customers. We can do free trade with one set of

:13:41. > :13:44.rules that we help make. I tell you this, if you're living in France,

:13:45. > :13:48.you aren't any less French because you're a member of the EU. If you're

:13:49. > :13:52.in Germany, you're no less German because you're in the EU. We're no

:13:53. > :13:59.less British because we're in the EU. I just don't accept that there's

:14:00. > :14:05.a tradeoff between trade and democracy. I think democracy is

:14:06. > :14:10.enormously important. APPLAUSE

:14:11. > :14:14.And what we've got now is an institution that has utterly

:14:15. > :14:17.outgrown its historic roots, which were noble, has now become so

:14:18. > :14:21.cumbersome and the real big difference was the introduction of

:14:22. > :14:25.the euro. That means you've got a failing currency, which is producing

:14:26. > :14:30.50% youth unemployment in Greece. They have to sort out their

:14:31. > :14:35.problems. And the best way for us is actually trade with the world, don't

:14:36. > :14:41.be this inward looking block and above all...

:14:42. > :14:46.APPLAUSE Above all, you take back control

:14:47. > :14:52.over all the decisions you have made, because in one in 28 and

:14:53. > :14:53.another five countries joining, we will become increasingly

:14:54. > :14:55.insignificant in making the decisions. So let's take back

:14:56. > :15:06.control. APPLAUSE. Ruth, I will repeat

:15:07. > :15:10.Douglas's question: How can we be sure in another 40 years we won't

:15:11. > :15:14.find ourselves in a United States of Europe? Because it is up to us. We

:15:15. > :15:24.saw in the films that we as a country are not in the euro, we as a

:15:25. > :15:30.country are not in Schengen. I don't think you take control by leaving

:15:31. > :15:34.the EU. I think you lose control by losing your seat at the table, by

:15:35. > :15:40.allowing other countries put taxes on us. You lose control by hurting

:15:41. > :15:45.our economy, by hurting goods, by hurting services. We at the moment

:15:46. > :15:50.make the EU work for us. We are in charge of the pound, interest rates,

:15:51. > :15:53.taxes, healthcare, education, spending. We make these decisions in

:15:54. > :15:58.the House of Commons or the Scottish Parliament. Europe doesn't tell us

:15:59. > :16:03.what to do. We make those decisions. We make decisions over when and if

:16:04. > :16:07.our soldiers go to war. We make these decisions. We also because we

:16:08. > :16:10.are part of the biggest free trading bloc in the UK have the highest

:16:11. > :16:14.number of Brits in employment in Britain in our nation's history.

:16:15. > :16:18.That's what we would lose if we left.

:16:19. > :16:21.APPLAUSE. That really is an extraordinary claim. The truth is

:16:22. > :16:27.that 60% of our rules and regulations come from the European

:16:28. > :16:33.Union. That is a lie. And ALL TALK AT ONCE.

:16:34. > :16:36.One at a time. I'm told you can't do this, you can't do this because of

:16:37. > :16:43.the EU. There are five presidents of the EU. Can anyone name them? And

:16:44. > :16:48.did anyone vote for them? You don't vote, for them because you are not

:16:49. > :16:52.allowed to vote for them, and you can't kick them out either.

:16:53. > :16:55.APPLAUSE. The problem is that in the EU there are 10,000 officials,

:16:56. > :16:58.nearly twice the number of people in this room by the way, who earn more

:16:59. > :17:05.than the UK Prime Minister. And you're paying for them. And that

:17:06. > :17:10.gravy train is continuing. So we, we, Britain, have voted against

:17:11. > :17:14.Europe 70 times. And 70 times we have been outvoted. So how does that

:17:15. > :17:26.mean we have any influence in Europe?

:17:27. > :17:30.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Frances? I think we've already heard Britain is

:17:31. > :17:34.a sovereign state, and we should be proud of that. We do control our

:17:35. > :17:38.taxes, our public spending, all these other decisions that sometimes

:17:39. > :17:45.Westminster politicians like to blame on Brussels. We do make those

:17:46. > :17:50.decisions. But where you have a fantastic market that gives you real

:17:51. > :17:56.bargaining power in the global economy of 500 million people on

:17:57. > :18:01.which 3 million jobs depend, then of course you should have fair rules

:18:02. > :18:06.that everybody has to play by. Again, I keep hearing about

:18:07. > :18:12.regulation, these are our rights. This is about treating workers

:18:13. > :18:18.fairly. We should be proud of that. I will be honest with you, I'm proud

:18:19. > :18:22.of being British, but there is nothing patriotic about a lack of a

:18:23. > :18:27.plan as to what even would happen if we came out? There is nothing

:18:28. > :18:32.patriotic about putting people's jobs at risk.

:18:33. > :18:37.APPLAUSE. I think we've heard enough from Project Fear over the last

:18:38. > :18:43.couple of weeks, I really do. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. I will give

:18:44. > :18:48.you one statistic. They go on and on about the single market. Let me tell

:18:49. > :19:00.you, since the dawn of the single market, which I remember reporting,

:19:01. > :19:05.there have been, 1992 it January 1993, there've been 27 countries

:19:06. > :19:10.that have done better than the United Kingdom at exporting goods

:19:11. > :19:15.into the single market, they include India, China and America. The best

:19:16. > :19:19.place for us is to be out of this morass, this supreme legal system.

:19:20. > :19:24.Sadiq Khan is completely wrong. The European Court of Justice is the

:19:25. > :19:29.supreme legal authority in our country. From which, and he knows

:19:30. > :19:35.that because he's a lawyer, he would not deny that. Deny it. You would

:19:36. > :19:41.not deny it. The European Court of Justice is acquiring steadily more

:19:42. > :19:47.powers. Under the Lisbon Treaty the EU expended by about 45 new areas of

:19:48. > :19:56.competence, and the European Court of Justice... And a United States

:19:57. > :20:00.state of Europe? Adjudicating in home affairs matters of deporting

:20:01. > :20:03.terrorist suspects, divorce laws, nothing to do with the idea of a

:20:04. > :20:08.single market. And the United States of Europe. Boris, I have to leave

:20:09. > :20:13.you because you've gone on, a United States of Europe in 40 years, yes or

:20:14. > :20:18.no Remember what John Major said about the single currency. He said

:20:19. > :20:22.it had all the quaintness and implausibility of a rain dance and

:20:23. > :20:27.look where it is now, destroying jobs across the European Union.

:20:28. > :20:33.Let's get out of this thing and we'll do better, creating free trade

:20:34. > :20:36.deals. Vote Leave and take back control.

:20:37. > :20:39.APPLAUSE. Ruth? So that's a no then. Even Boris Johnson doesn't think

:20:40. > :20:45.there is going to be a United States of Europe in 40 years' time. There's

:20:46. > :20:52.one now. I need to pick up on something Andrea said. I can't let

:20:53. > :20:59.it stand you make a blatant untruth. 60% of our laws is made in Europe,

:21:00. > :21:05.she says. It is simply not true. 13% of our laws, according to the

:21:06. > :21:10.independent House of Commons library, that number is 13%. In the

:21:11. > :21:15.last five-year Parliament it was four. Four bills out of 121 that

:21:16. > :21:20.came out of Europe. I think there is a real question here that you're

:21:21. > :21:26.being asked to make a decision that's irreversible. We wake up on

:21:27. > :21:30.Friday, we don't like it and it was sold on a lie. They lie about the

:21:31. > :21:34.cost of Europe, about Turkey's entry to Europe. They lie about the

:21:35. > :21:39.European Army, because we've got a veto on that. They've lied about

:21:40. > :21:42.that too and it is not good enough. You deserve the truth, you deserve

:21:43. > :21:52.the truth. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Gisela? You

:21:53. > :21:57.do deserve the truth. If the Prime Minister is refusing to say that he

:21:58. > :22:02.would exercise his veto over Turkey, what do you this I he's going to

:22:03. > :22:05.veto? Let's be clear about the United States of Europe, which

:22:06. > :22:09.Douglas addresses. Those countries in the eurozone will have to

:22:10. > :22:12.integrate more deeply. And in a sense we have already left, because

:22:13. > :22:16.they have to do things in their own interests and we are purely

:22:17. > :22:21.peripheral. So the best thing to do is come back and take control. The

:22:22. > :22:26.other thing, there are a number of things out there which the European

:22:27. > :22:29.Commission is holding back until after the referendum. Tax

:22:30. > :22:35.identification number, European-wide. We have not vetoed

:22:36. > :22:42.that. Why do you think that's going to happen?

:22:43. > :22:45.APPLAUSE. Can I just say... Can I say very proudly that I choose to

:22:46. > :22:51.work with the EU to fight climate change. I choose to work with the EU

:22:52. > :22:55.to fix air quality. I choose to work good EU to deal with the refugee

:22:56. > :22:59.crisis. I choose to work with the EU to fight terrorism and organised

:23:00. > :23:04.crime. I choose to work with the EU to fight tax evasion. Let me tell

:23:05. > :23:09.you what else. One of the most important jobs I have as Mayor of

:23:10. > :23:13.London is to keep our city safe. In July 2005 our city was under attack.

:23:14. > :23:18.On 7th July is terrorists were successful. 52 Londoners died. On

:23:19. > :23:23.21st July, they weren't. All the men were arrested except for one. He

:23:24. > :23:27.fled our country and went to Italy. Before the European Arrest Warrant,

:23:28. > :23:32.he would have been there for years and years and years, like Costa del

:23:33. > :23:37.Sol. What happened? He fled here in July, he was brought back in

:23:38. > :23:40.September. He is serving 40 years in prison for terrorism. Justice

:23:41. > :23:52.delivered by the European Union. CHEERING.

:23:53. > :23:59.APPLAUSE. Our second question tonight, our final question from the

:24:00. > :24:04.floor, is from Alex. Alex Trembath is supporting the Remain side. Can

:24:05. > :24:07.we have your question, please? Is it a coincidence that the longest

:24:08. > :24:13.period of peace in European history has happened at the same time as the

:24:14. > :24:22.emergence of the European Union? CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Gisela

:24:23. > :24:26.Stuart? The post-World War II deal was to fold. The Common Market was

:24:27. > :24:30.supposed to provide economic stability. NATO was supposed to

:24:31. > :24:37.provide military stability. APPLAUSE. What we've got now is that

:24:38. > :24:43.the European Union is not keeping up with the deal. It is creating

:24:44. > :24:49.unemployment in Greece. It is outsourcing its border control to

:24:50. > :24:54.Turkey. It is undermining NATO by trying to duplicate the same

:24:55. > :24:59.structures. Just to quote the former head of Interpol, Ronald Noble, he

:25:00. > :25:04.said the EU border system is like hanging a sign welcoming in

:25:05. > :25:06.terrorists to Europe. It is making us insecure rather than making us

:25:07. > :25:15.securer. APPLAUSE. Ruth? Alex, a short answer

:25:16. > :25:19.is no, there is no coincidence that we've been more or less at peace.

:25:20. > :25:23.The other side have said throughout this debate they don't like experts,

:25:24. > :25:28.but when it comes to keeping our country safe and secure, I want to

:25:29. > :25:33.listen to the experts, so when the head of GCHQ says we are safer in

:25:34. > :25:37.the EU, I listen. When five former NATO chiefs say we are safer in the

:25:38. > :25:41.EU, I listen. When the head of your o poll, a Brit, says we are safer in

:25:42. > :25:46.the EU, I listen. When the head of MI5 and MI6 says we are safer in the

:25:47. > :25:48.EU, I listen. When all all of our major allies - America, Canada, all

:25:49. > :25:51.of our major allies - America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand -

:25:52. > :25:55.say we are safer in the EU, I listen. And if it comes to a choice,

:25:56. > :26:01.if it comes to a choice of listening to all of these people, even if they

:26:02. > :26:04.are experts, or listening to these three about who keeps my family

:26:05. > :26:07.safe, I'm going to vote for them every day of the week and twice on a

:26:08. > :26:15.Sunday. Don't risk it. APPLAUSE. Andrea? Let's be clear

:26:16. > :26:20.about this. The UK has always benefitted from being a founder

:26:21. > :26:26.member of NATO. We have one of the few permanent seats on the UN

:26:27. > :26:29.Security Council. We are one of the ity Council. We are one of the five

:26:30. > :26:31.Is for -- one of the five eyes for intelligence. We share it across the

:26:32. > :26:34.world with other English-speaking nations. Of course we co-operate

:26:35. > :26:40.with the European Union and we will continue to do so. But Field Marshal

:26:41. > :26:48.Lord Guthrie, Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Mike rose,

:26:49. > :26:51.commander of UN forces in Bosnia, Major General Julian Thompson,

:26:52. > :26:58.marine commander of the Falkland, they say that UK security rests on

:26:59. > :27:01.NATO co-operation, not on the EU. Lord givery says many European

:27:02. > :27:07.politicians like to say that it was the EU that made everything

:27:08. > :27:16.peaceful. It was not. It was the leadership of the Americans.

:27:17. > :27:21.APPLAUSE.. Frances? I want to return to Alex's question, because this is

:27:22. > :27:27.not just about history. I want to bring it closer to home. Many trade

:27:28. > :27:31.unionists and other campaigners in Britain and Ireland worked together

:27:32. > :27:38.for many years to support the peace process in Northern Ireland. And it

:27:39. > :27:42.took a lot of hard work. We've supported the good Friday agreement

:27:43. > :27:45.ever since. The wonderful thing is that people can come from different

:27:46. > :27:50.traditions, come from different communities, but they see themselves

:27:51. > :27:56.as common citizens of the EU. The Irish Prime Minister has said that

:27:57. > :28:02.if we come out of the EU, there will have to be border controls. Let me

:28:03. > :28:05.tell you, the way that is seen in Belfast and Derry, I really worry

:28:06. > :28:15.for our future. APPLAUSE. This is not the time to be

:28:16. > :28:23.building... We should be building bridges between people, not walls.

:28:24. > :28:28.APPLAUSE. For the sake of the Irish, vote to stay in. Boris? I believe,

:28:29. > :28:34.alas, the EU is going in totally the wrong direction. It is a mistake for

:28:35. > :28:37.it to try to take on this defence component and try to evolve into a

:28:38. > :28:40.United States of Europe in the way that it is. I remember when the EU

:28:41. > :28:44.was given the task of trying to sort out the tragedy in the Balkans. You

:28:45. > :28:49.will remember what was happening in Bosnia. The EU was mandated

:28:50. > :28:54.specifically for four years, the EU was given that diplomatic and indeed

:28:55. > :28:57.military task. It was a disaster, about 1 million people died. It was

:28:58. > :29:03.only solved when the Americans came in. I was there. I remember

:29:04. > :29:07.reporting it. We saw what happened when the Dayton accords and NATO

:29:08. > :29:10.finally asserted primacy. That was the right thing. I do worry about

:29:11. > :29:16.our security on the streets of this city to get back to a point that was

:29:17. > :29:20.made earlier. It is absolutely extraordinary that the the European

:29:21. > :29:25.Court of Justice, not the Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, but the

:29:26. > :29:29.Court of Justice in Luxembourg is telling our Home Secretary she may

:29:30. > :29:33.not support people with serious criminal convictions to other

:29:34. > :29:38.European countries, or indeed people who've been arrested for serious

:29:39. > :29:42.terrorist offences, such as Abu Hamza's daughter-in-law law. I think

:29:43. > :29:47.it is absolutely amazing, and how the Remain side have the cheek to

:29:48. > :29:52.come and tell us that we improve our security by staying in this

:29:53. > :29:58.organisation, I do not understand. The best way forward is to keep the

:29:59. > :30:04.European Arrest Warrant inter-Governmentally. Thank you.

:30:05. > :30:09.Andrea and Boris talks about our allies, talked about Nato. It's not

:30:10. > :30:14.a choice between the EU and Nato or between the EU and our allies, we

:30:15. > :30:19.can still have a special relationship with the USA and be in

:30:20. > :30:22.Nato. Which of our allies, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia,

:30:23. > :30:25.which of the Nato members is encouraging us to leave the EU or

:30:26. > :30:34.says it's in our interests? Name one. Just one. Name us one. USA?

:30:35. > :30:41.Canada? News zealed? Australia? One of the Nato countries? All of them

:30:42. > :30:45.are saying we're safer together. All of them are also saying as long as

:30:46. > :30:47.the European Union keeps trying to copy what Nato does, if the

:30:48. > :30:52.countries across Europe are not paying their 2% of the GDP, which is

:30:53. > :31:01.the Nato contribution, we will be weakening it. Stay and fight, don't

:31:02. > :31:06.quit. Let's stay and persuade our allies to pay. Don't be a quitter.

:31:07. > :31:10.Be proud. We can do it. We heard earlier, that the Prime Minister was

:31:11. > :31:17.meant to have got a deal. That deal amounted to absolutely nothing. It's

:31:18. > :31:20.temporary. So when you've had the most serious renegotiation attempts

:31:21. > :31:24.by a British Prime Minister, certainly since I've been in

:31:25. > :31:28.politics, and the best he got out was nothing, how do you think you're

:31:29. > :31:33.going to change it after you have voted to Remain? There's a dangerer

:31:34. > :31:42.in remaining, vote Leave. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:31:43. > :31:47.I think Boris maybe misjudged this panel by talking about the Balkans.

:31:48. > :31:51.What he probably doesn't know is I was sent to the Balkans as a

:31:52. > :31:55.reporter. I have never been more proud in my life than watching

:31:56. > :31:57.British troops with a Union Jack on their arm to see them pulling their

:31:58. > :32:02.weight and helping in the European Union. It's what caused me to join

:32:03. > :32:06.up and serve. So I think I'm the only one on this panel who's worn

:32:07. > :32:10.the Queen's uniform. While I have the greatest respect for the retired

:32:11. > :32:14.general Lord Guthrie, the greatest of respect for him and with the

:32:15. > :32:18.greatest of respect for him, I would gently remind the other side of this

:32:19. > :32:21.debate that as a retired general, he's not currently charged with the

:32:22. > :32:25.safety and security of our nation. All those people who are currently

:32:26. > :32:28.charged, every single one of them, an every single one of our major

:32:29. > :32:36.allies says we are safer within the European Union. Andrea. Let's get

:32:37. > :32:43.back to the really important question about the UK's place in the

:32:44. > :32:47.world. Let's get back to that five president' report, the five

:32:48. > :32:53.presidents of the European Union. The report just last year is saying

:32:54. > :33:00.that by 2025 they want to see complete political and fiscal union

:33:01. > :33:06.of all 28 EU member states. So we have this one, last chance to keep

:33:07. > :33:09.our democracy, to make sure that in future, when you want to sack a

:33:10. > :33:14.Government, you can sack it and you know that it will go, that you won't

:33:15. > :33:21.find the very next Government that you appoint is still stuck doing the

:33:22. > :33:26.bidding of the European Union. Let's be clear, those measures that those

:33:27. > :33:32.five presidents wants to impose on us do include a European tax

:33:33. > :33:36.IDification code and they do include a European army. Let's be clear -

:33:37. > :33:40.the best way to be in charge of our own democracy is by voting Leave

:33:41. > :33:49.this Thursday. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:33:50. > :33:54.Sadiq. Briefly if you wo. The other side

:33:55. > :33:58.know this. They've lost the debate on the economy. There are no

:33:59. > :34:01.experts... Won the debate on the economy. There are no experts

:34:02. > :34:09.backing up their case. It's lies and scaremongering. You know, and this,

:34:10. > :34:13.and you want the British public to take a one-way leap in the dark

:34:14. > :34:17.without a plan. You know we can feature those plans much you know

:34:18. > :34:21.the deal we've got. We can veto any plans for integration. Oh, rubbish.

:34:22. > :34:28.You know the rights we've got. All you want to do is talk us down. You

:34:29. > :34:37.should know better. All right. No, we have to pause there. We've been

:34:38. > :34:40.outvoted. Now we return for one last time to Michal

:34:41. > :34:43.This vote is not about today or tomorrow, but about a choice that

:34:44. > :34:47.will matter for many years to come. So let's turn to the panel to find

:34:48. > :34:53.out what sort of Britain they would like to see. Dianne James of Ukip,

:34:54. > :34:58.is your Britain a diminished one? President Obama says the EU

:34:59. > :35:00.magnifies our influence. I'm not particularly interested in what

:35:01. > :35:04.President Obama has got to say because he won't be a president of

:35:05. > :35:07.the United States in a few months' time. I'd be more interested in what

:35:08. > :35:14.the two contowarders for that role would be. As for the Remain camp

:35:15. > :35:19.talking about trashing the economy, what about the 259 billion black

:35:20. > :35:25.hole, the 34 billion the UK has got to pick up and every single time the

:35:26. > :35:28.EU mismanages the contributions from the member states, the United

:35:29. > :35:33.Kingdom has to pick up an element of bill. I want that 34 billion back

:35:34. > :35:37.spent in the United Kingdom. I don't want to keep on funding the European

:35:38. > :35:46.Union, which has effectively become a failed state.

:35:47. > :35:50.I'm going to turn to Tim Farron. You have spoken about being passionate

:35:51. > :35:54.about European membership, passionate about expanding the EU,

:35:55. > :35:58.an EU army. I'm passionate about the fact that we are sat around a table

:35:59. > :36:02.with 27 countries, 11 of which a quarter a century ago were on the

:36:03. > :36:06.other side of the iron curtain. Six of which had nuclear weapons on

:36:07. > :36:10.their soil pointed right here. Today they are our friends and our

:36:11. > :36:15.neighbours. We put that at risk at our peril. This is a vote about what

:36:16. > :36:17.kind of country we are. Are we an outward looking, decent, embracing,

:36:18. > :36:22.tolerant country, confident of our place in the world? Or are we ins

:36:23. > :36:26.lar? Are we small? Are we glouring across the white cliffs of Dover?

:36:27. > :36:36.Something which is un-British. I'm voting in because I'm a patriot.

:36:37. > :36:41.Back to the Leave side. Tony, small, inular. I respect Tim and his

:36:42. > :36:44.opinion. I do think that we in this country, we are the oldest

:36:45. > :36:49.Parliamentary democracy in the world. I personally think we live in

:36:50. > :36:53.the greatest country in the world. I would love us to be 21st century,

:36:54. > :36:56.outward looking, international, we're having this debate tonight

:36:57. > :37:01.with all these lovely people in the capital of the world, London. But I

:37:02. > :37:05.think we need to set ourselves free. This is where Tim and I disagree. I

:37:06. > :37:11.honestly believe we need to set ourselves free from this rotting,

:37:12. > :37:18.corrupt bureaucratic institution, full of men and they are mostly

:37:19. > :37:22.men... You spoke earlier about what British women had achieved. Why

:37:23. > :37:28.would we achieve more outside the EU? David Cameron was givening the

:37:29. > :37:31.pure opportunity to reform and use our influence within the European

:37:32. > :37:35.Union to reform the union. He asked for nothing and you know what, he

:37:36. > :37:41.got nothing back. The European Union doesn't listen to us. It doesn't

:37:42. > :37:45.have our best interests at heart. So I'm voting Leave to become a citizen

:37:46. > :37:50.of the world, you know what the European Union is the sick man of

:37:51. > :37:57.the economy. Before I go back to the Remain side.

:37:58. > :38:01.You heard that long list of figures of experts, although that's a

:38:02. > :38:04.dismissive word at the moment, that Ruth Davidson had, all those people

:38:05. > :38:09.who believe we are safer in, shouldn't you be listening to them.

:38:10. > :38:12.I take the view and I will say this again, that Britain will be

:38:13. > :38:17.stronger, more secure outside of the European Union. For all the reasons

:38:18. > :38:21.that we've heard from Gisela, Andrea and Boris this evening, because we

:38:22. > :38:25.can take back control from the unelected and unaccountable,

:38:26. > :38:27.bureaucrats and the institutions in Brussels that do nothing to

:38:28. > :38:32.represent Britain. They take our money. They spend our money. They

:38:33. > :38:36.don't account for themselves fiscally. At the same time, they are

:38:37. > :38:40.having a corrosive influence when it comes to decision making on our

:38:41. > :38:42.laws. Our Parliament should be sovereign and we should be

:38:43. > :38:44.accountable to the British public. We should be able to say no to

:38:45. > :38:53.Brussels. OK, thank you.

:38:54. > :38:58.Caroline Lucas, the EU is on a path to future integration. Why should we

:38:59. > :39:02.be part TV? The EU is the -- part of it? The EU is the biggest peace

:39:03. > :39:05.project we've ever had in history. It is extraordinary that 28

:39:06. > :39:08.countries have come together to try to solve their problems through

:39:09. > :39:13.debate and discussion rather than bullets and bombs. It wasn't that

:39:14. > :39:16.long ago, since that was the way in which problems were tried to be

:39:17. > :39:20.solved here. It's been the EU that has helped to bring peace to western

:39:21. > :39:26.Europe, bring democracy to Eastern Europe. We turn our become on that

:39:27. > :39:29.at our peril. The biggest challenges today are by their very nature

:39:30. > :39:33.cross-border, climate change, international trim, the refugee

:39:34. > :39:37.crisis. We have to work cross-border in order to solve those problems.

:39:38. > :39:44.That is about taking back control. That is why we should vote Remain.

:39:45. > :39:48.Thank you. Thank you to everyone on this panel and the hashtag for it to

:39:49. > :39:52.continue, the discussion is BBC debate.

:39:53. > :39:57.Thank you very much. We began with brief opening statements. We end

:39:58. > :40:03.with concluding statements, the other way round, Ruth Davidson first

:40:04. > :40:12.of all for Remain. APPLAUSE

:40:13. > :40:15.Tonight was the Leave campaign's last chance to answer your

:40:16. > :40:20.questions, to spell out exactly what happens if we abandon the biggest

:40:21. > :40:23.single market in the world, to show us what a Brexit Britain would

:40:24. > :40:25.actually look like. I don't know about you, but I don't think I heard

:40:26. > :40:31.enough to be confident that they have all the answers that you need.

:40:32. > :40:35.And you have to be 100% sure. Because there's no going back on

:40:36. > :40:40.Friday morning, and your decision could cost someone else their job.

:40:41. > :40:45.Now I know that the EU isn't perfect. But the benefits far

:40:46. > :40:49.outweigh any costs. And the Britain that I know, the Britain that I love

:40:50. > :40:57.works with its friends and neighbours. It doesn't walk away

:40:58. > :41:01.from them. Sadiq, Francis and I refuse to dismiss the experts. We

:41:02. > :41:05.listen to them. The economists, the scientists, the business leaders,

:41:06. > :41:09.the trade unions, the health professionals, they all agree that

:41:10. > :41:19.Britain is better off in. You are better off in.

:41:20. > :41:21.There is nothing more positive than having a stronger economy,

:41:22. > :41:26.supporting jobs and opportunities. That's why I believe you should be

:41:27. > :41:33.vote Remain. Thank you. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:41:34. > :41:45.Thank you, Ruth. Now Boris Johnson. CHEERING

:41:46. > :41:51.At the end of this campaign, I think you'll agree, there is a very clear

:41:52. > :41:56.choice between those on their side, who speak of nothing but fear, of

:41:57. > :42:01.the consequences of leaving the EU and we on our side, who offer hope.

:42:02. > :42:05.Between those who have been endlessly rubbishing our country and

:42:06. > :42:12.running it down and those of us who believe in Britain. They say we

:42:13. > :42:18.can't do it. We say we can. They say we have no choice but to bow down to

:42:19. > :42:23.Brussels. We say they are woefully underestimating this country and

:42:24. > :42:27.what it can do. If we vote Leave, we can take back

:42:28. > :42:32.control of our borders, of huge sums of monies, ?10 billion a year net of

:42:33. > :42:37.our tax-raising powers, of our trade policy and of our hole law-making

:42:38. > :42:42.system, the democracy that is the foundation of our prosperity and if

:42:43. > :42:46.we stand up for democracy, we will be speaking up for hundreds of

:42:47. > :42:53.millions of people, around Europe, who agree with us, but who currently

:42:54. > :42:58.have no voice. If we vote Leave, and take back control, I believe that

:42:59. > :42:59.this Thursday can be our country's Independence Day.

:43:00. > :43:31.CHEERING AND APPLAUSE All right. All right. Please. Thank

:43:32. > :43:35.you. Thank you. That brings the debate to an end. My hope is that

:43:36. > :43:39.it's clarified some of the issues not only for you here but for people

:43:40. > :43:45.at home. I'd first of all like to thank all of you who came here to

:43:46. > :43:50.Wembley to listen to the arguments, thank you very much for listening. I

:43:51. > :43:53.was going to say quietly, I won't say quietly, for listening so keenly

:43:54. > :44:00.and enthusiastically to the arguments. I would like to thank all

:44:01. > :44:10.those with Michal and those on stage with me, thank you all very much

:44:11. > :44:15.indeed. Now, it's goodbye from the hall here, but watching all of this

:44:16. > :44:18.has been Emily Maitlis with a wide range of guests in our spin room and

:44:19. > :44:23.the question now is what have they made of what they've heard?

:44:24. > :44:27.Good evening from Wembley Arena's spin room. That debate is finished

:44:28. > :44:30.on the main stage, but this is the moment and the place that the

:44:31. > :44:34.narrative of the night may get honed. Over the next few minutes,

:44:35. > :44:37.we're going to bring you reaction from the nation's media

:44:38. > :44:42.organisations, who as you see have been gathered here. They're filing

:44:43. > :44:46.copy and column inches as the talking went on. We will be hearing

:44:47. > :44:50.from the big beasts in both the Leave and Remain campaigns, how do

:44:51. > :44:54.they think their teams inside the arena fared this evening? First,

:44:55. > :44:59.though, we head to reality check, our corner where our economics

:45:00. > :45:02.editor and Katya Adler, our Europe editor, have been digesting the

:45:03. > :45:06.facts and figures flying around this evening. Hello. Let's go with what

:45:07. > :45:10.stood out for you and we knew Turkey would come up and sure enough, that

:45:11. > :45:11.was pretty centre stage. Start us off with what we know is the truth

:45:12. > :45:22.there. We knew immigration would be a huge

:45:23. > :45:28.debate and an emote EU one. Is it pie in the sky that Turkey will ever

:45:29. > :45:34.join the EU? Or is it poised to join? We heard from something that

:45:35. > :45:38.it is never going to happen. That is disingenuous, because Turkey is in

:45:39. > :45:43.accession talks for the EU. EU. It has been in the last ten years. If

:45:44. > :45:47.you look at the British edgecy website in Ankara it says part of

:45:48. > :45:51.its job is to help prepare Turkey for accession. But it is nowhere

:45:52. > :45:57.near joining. In those ten years it has hardly advanced on the talks,

:45:58. > :46:02.and that's science and research, never mind freedom of speech and

:46:03. > :46:08.human rights. Even if it fulfilled all the criteria, every country,

:46:09. > :46:18.including the EU, would have a veto. What's the truth in that ?38, on

:46:19. > :46:21.wage? On wages? The economy Remain believe is their strong suit.

:46:22. > :46:25.Frances O'Grady made this striking claim that we would be ?38 a week

:46:26. > :46:30.worse off if Britain leaves the European Union. The big problem for

:46:31. > :46:33.the Remain camp on this economic debate is yes most large economic

:46:34. > :46:39.organisations believe that in the short term at least if Britain left

:46:40. > :46:44.the European Union there would be a short term economic hit. But Remain

:46:45. > :46:48.made into this specific number, ?38 a week. That depends on which of the

:46:49. > :46:52.models you look at. It is difficult to say from a forecast you can draw

:46:53. > :46:56.out these precise numbers. That's where the public watching it think,

:46:57. > :47:01.hang on a minute, this is only a forecast. It is about the future.

:47:02. > :47:04.How can you be that specific? We heard this phrase ntinued throughout

:47:05. > :47:09.the night - take back control. What's the truth about which side

:47:10. > :47:13.can take back control? We heard from Andrea Leadsom tonight particularly,

:47:14. > :47:18.she said this considered that within the EU we've got the freedom of

:47:19. > :47:22.movement for EU citizens. She played the safety card, she said it was

:47:23. > :47:27.impossible to stop EU citizens coming, even if they have a criminal

:47:28. > :47:31.record they can come to the UK. She is correct and incorrect, you can

:47:32. > :47:35.stop EU citizens coming from the UK. Having a criminal record isn't good

:47:36. > :47:39.enough. You have to pose that they pose an actual risk. It is possible

:47:40. > :47:43.to stop them coming. When you look at Remain, they argued strongly in

:47:44. > :47:47.favour of immigration. They said the Government here, the UK Government,

:47:48. > :47:51.has the better plan so that essential services aren't affected.

:47:52. > :47:54.You cannot plan. With freedom of movement with EU citizens you never

:47:55. > :48:01.know how many will apply for jobs in the UK. And growth, what do we know

:48:02. > :48:07.about that? One striking claim was that the eurozone has only Continent

:48:08. > :48:14.in the world with worse growth than the eurozone and the Leave camp said

:48:15. > :48:17.that's Antarctica. That sounds good superficially, but in growth Europe

:48:18. > :48:23.and the eurozone is doing slightly better this year and the UK and the

:48:24. > :48:27.US. If you look at continents or parts of continents like Latin Mc,

:48:28. > :48:32.they've been growing more slowly than the eurozone. It is this idea

:48:33. > :48:36.of Britain being shackled to a poorry performing eurozone has been

:48:37. > :48:41.true in the past. But there is some evidence that Europe has been

:48:42. > :48:44.growing more quickly. This Antarctica claim is increasingly

:48:45. > :48:54.difficult for them to execute. Thank you. There's much more expert

:48:55. > :49:00.analysis online. And on social media. One of the moments that got

:49:01. > :49:04.the assembled journalists excited this evening was that question, how

:49:05. > :49:10.the UK economy will fare outside the EU. A tricky one for the Leave

:49:11. > :49:15.campaign, with reports from economists about the risks of

:49:16. > :49:19.leading. Let's talk to one of the leading Leave voices, Michael Gove.

:49:20. > :49:23.Thank you Emily. I pointed out in a previous debate that many of the

:49:24. > :49:27.people who are urging us to stay in the European Union were the same

:49:28. > :49:31.people who got it wrong over the single currency. They made a mistake

:49:32. > :49:36.in the past. They are making a mistake now. What was really

:49:37. > :49:40.striking about tonight was the Leave side put forward an optimistic

:49:41. > :49:46.can-do hopeful case which resonated with the audience. Whereas the

:49:47. > :49:50.Remain side were concentrating very much on a pessimistic story of doing

:49:51. > :49:54.Britain down and saying that we can't cope outside the European

:49:55. > :50:01.Union, and if we vote to Leave we'll have war in Northern Ireland and the

:50:02. > :50:07.NHS collapsing. They accused you not of Project Fear but. In project

:50:08. > :50:12.Hate. Do you think the campaign went over the top on the immigration

:50:13. > :50:18.message? Absolutely not. Sadiq Khan has said in the past it is wrong to

:50:19. > :50:23.say that people who want migration controlled are prejudiced. You admit

:50:24. > :50:26.that it made you shudder. Do you think it has become a turning point

:50:27. > :50:31.where you don't want to push the immigration line too much? I am

:50:32. > :50:35.engaged, as the Leave campaign are, with a conversation with the British

:50:36. > :50:40.people how we can take back control of critical areas. When it comes to

:50:41. > :50:44.migration, like Boris and Gisela, as an immigrant as she pointed out, I

:50:45. > :50:49.believe Graylings is a good thing, but we need to be able to control

:50:50. > :50:53.the numbers. We cannot control the numbers if we are in the European

:50:54. > :50:58.Union. That was a point that Jeremy Corbyn made earlier this week. That

:50:59. > :51:02.panel raised the question of the ?600,000 donation from a former BNP

:51:03. > :51:06.member which you made clear you wanted to hand back. Not sure the

:51:07. > :51:11.message got through to your team up there. I think Andrea Leadsom said

:51:12. > :51:18.people have real concerns about free moment. Was has that a back for a

:51:19. > :51:22.former BNP leader there? What's happening to the money? We are

:51:23. > :51:29.investigating how this money arrived in the accounts. I think that it was

:51:30. > :51:34.an 82-year-old lady who had been signed up by the BNP by her husband,

:51:35. > :51:38.now dead, and as soon as she discovered that, she asked for her

:51:39. > :51:43.name to be taken off. We are investigating. I don't have all the

:51:44. > :51:47.facts in front of me. The imputation, is allegation behind

:51:48. > :51:51.that is people who want to Vote Leave are somehow motivated by

:51:52. > :51:54.prejudice. When you ce. When you have laugh the country ce. When you

:51:55. > :51:57.have laugh the country - I hope more - going to vote Leave it is wrong

:51:58. > :52:03.for the Remain campaign to try to indulge in personal attacks of that

:52:04. > :52:06.kind. It was conspicuous on our side and the Leave side we made

:52:07. > :52:10.optimistic arguments. We placed our faith in the British people. I fear

:52:11. > :52:14.the Remain side were trying to suggest that people people who

:52:15. > :52:20.believe in democracy and self-government are motivated by

:52:21. > :52:25.prejudice. Michael Gove, thank you for joining us. These are the

:52:26. > :52:29.headlines that voters will be reading tomorrow morning when they

:52:30. > :52:33.wake up. That being the eve of polling day. For the Remain camp

:52:34. > :52:36.there are bounds to be questions from journalists about the pressure

:52:37. > :52:39.they came under on immigration in particular how you limit the numbers

:52:40. > :52:47.coming to the UK. And specifically whether Turkey might join the EU.

:52:48. > :52:53.Here for the Remain camp is Chuka Umunna. Good to be here. Your side

:52:54. > :52:58.haven't managed to shut this down and that's in essence because it is,

:52:59. > :53:02.as we saw from the embassy website, that it is Government policy that

:53:03. > :53:08.Turkey should one day join, not now but one day. The myth of Turkey

:53:09. > :53:12.joining the EU was exposed in that debate. Boris Johnson himself has

:53:13. > :53:15.said it is not on the cards. For Turkey to join the European Union

:53:16. > :53:19.you have to have the agreement of all the 28 member sates of the

:53:20. > :53:25.European Union. I don't see that happening. On this immigration

:53:26. > :53:28.issue, which nobody on the stage today was denying that immigration

:53:29. > :53:34.presents challenges, but the idea that you deal with that by crashing

:53:35. > :53:39.your economy is absolutely ludicrous proposition. What you've seen from

:53:40. > :53:41.the Leave campaign is them saying different things to different

:53:42. > :53:46.communities. Andrea Leadsom was asked clearly, is it not the case

:53:47. > :53:49.that you actually want to increase immigration, you don't want to

:53:50. > :53:52.reduce immigration? She wouldn't answer the question. The bigger

:53:53. > :53:56.question is about taking back control. Yes. There are two things

:53:57. > :54:03.going on here. One, Turkey itself thinks it is in line to join the EU.

:54:04. > :54:07.So perhaps that message hasn't got through if it is not going to. And

:54:08. > :54:13.secondly, the Home Secretary, the ECJ is telling the Home Secretary

:54:14. > :54:17.she can't deport Abu Hamza's daughter-in-law law. Security, when

:54:18. > :54:24.the Remain side uses it, he says, is a bogus argument. Europol is headed

:54:25. > :54:29.up by the Brit. The Leave campaign have put out this list of 50 people

:54:30. > :54:34.they say they have had trouble deporting. What they don't say is

:54:35. > :54:41.130 times that number have been deported to face justice. We can

:54:42. > :54:45.tram people who pose a threat. The Leave campaign have a points-based

:54:46. > :54:48.system which they use in Australia, to promote immigration. They've got

:54:49. > :54:55.no plan really on what they want to do. Of course, the big thing here is

:54:56. > :54:58.our economy. What you saw was an incredibly passionate argument by

:54:59. > :55:01.the Remain side on how Britain is leading in Europe in ensuring we've

:55:02. > :55:05.got a single market that works for us, in sorting out and finalising

:55:06. > :55:09.trade deals with other countries. Countries. Juxtapose that on the

:55:10. > :55:15.obsession with immigration, which nobody denies is an issue... Any

:55:16. > :55:20.regrets on how that campaign, Project Fear or Project Economy is

:55:21. > :55:24.going, when the Chancellor is talking about dropping house prices,

:55:25. > :55:28.raising taxes, the need for an austerity Budget? There's a huge

:55:29. > :55:33.range of opinion from Frances O'Grady, the leader of a trade union

:55:34. > :55:35.moment of 6 million people, from businesses, environmental groups,

:55:36. > :55:40.sports stars saying this will be bad for our economy. It is not just bad

:55:41. > :55:44.for our economy but we get a lot already. That's quite a positive

:55:45. > :55:49.message. And still you have just seen Michael Gove asked to say

:55:50. > :55:54.whether he will return the ?600,000 donation given by a former member of

:55:55. > :55:58.the BNP, the third largest donation to the Vote Leave campaign, asked

:55:59. > :56:03.whether they will return that... He said he is thinking about it. Chuka

:56:04. > :56:06.Umunna, thank you. So there are little more than 48 hours remaining

:56:07. > :56:11.for the campaigns to get their message across. Polling stations in

:56:12. > :56:14.the referendum open on Thursday morning at 7.00am. So journalists

:56:15. > :56:19.are getting quite a lot of attention, as you can imagine, as

:56:20. > :56:24.the two sides vie for a favourable write-up tomorrow. What's their

:56:25. > :56:29.verdict? Isabel Oakeshott of the Daily Mail and Steve Richard of the

:56:30. > :56:33.Independent. What is your take on tonight? It is hard, if you know

:56:34. > :56:38.your position and that of your paper to write anything different? It is

:56:39. > :56:43.one figure missing from tonight's debate, and that's the Prime

:56:44. > :56:47.Minister. It was interesting he didn't feel able to take part in a

:56:48. > :56:51.head to head debate. Voters would have liked that. There was that

:56:52. > :56:54.moment for the Remain side when they made the mistake I think of

:56:55. > :56:58.mentioning his renegotiation that. Prompted a lot of jeers from the

:56:59. > :57:04.audience, because his renegotiation throughout this campaign has been

:57:05. > :57:08.shown to be a sham. Absolutely not. I think David Cameron made the right

:57:09. > :57:11.call not to be here. If he had been here all we would be talking about

:57:12. > :57:16.now is Boris Johnson versus David Cameron. I think the Remain camp

:57:17. > :57:19.made the right call in bringing in Ruth Davidson, Sadiq Khan, two

:57:20. > :57:23.people we haven't seen that much in the context of this debate, but on a

:57:24. > :57:28.bit of a political roll at the moment. It felt fresher. Let's be

:57:29. > :57:33.honest there isn't a fresh argument to be had in this debate, which has

:57:34. > :57:37.been going on for about 28 years, but it felt fresher with those two.

:57:38. > :57:41.Did you feel there was a win here? I know this is the pin room, where the

:57:42. > :57:46.narrative is decided. Did you emerge from that feeling differently from

:57:47. > :57:51.how you went on? It is always difficult as a commentator listening

:57:52. > :57:55.to debates like this, because you hear great performances from both

:57:56. > :57:58.sides. I want to acknowledge that Ruth Davidson on the Remain side

:57:59. > :58:02.gave a sensational performance. I do think time and again the Remain side

:58:03. > :58:06.has been shown to come up short on immigration. That's what I think

:58:07. > :58:10.will get them. Future Tory leaders for Conservative there as well on

:58:11. > :58:14.either side? That's part of the prism through which this is being

:58:15. > :58:19.viewed. It is hard in the format where you have to be careful about

:58:20. > :58:23.ballet setra for a person to have a decisive win in the context of that

:58:24. > :58:28.kind of debate. I think that the surprise was the Viv asty of those

:58:29. > :58:34.additional speakers, we haven't seen much of in the campaign. It is

:58:35. > :58:44.coming up to 10 o'clock. The debate continues on 5Live. On BBC One, the

:58:45. > :58:48.Ten o'clock News. From the SSE Arena, goodnight from all of us.