:00:07. > :00:08.Good evening and welcome to How Should I Vote?: The EU Debate.
:00:09. > :00:39.Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union
:00:40. > :00:43.That's the question you'll get to answer in exactly four weeks'
:00:44. > :00:47.time when the nation goes to the polls on the 23rd June.
:00:48. > :00:54.For the next hour, on BBC One, BBC News Channel and Radio 5 Live
:00:55. > :00:57.we're joined by an audience of 18 to 29-year-olds and senior
:00:58. > :01:00.politicians from right across the UK who're here to try and help you make
:01:01. > :01:03.up your mind on what could be one of the most important votes
:01:04. > :01:08.Tonight is all about you, so let's hear from some of you.
:01:09. > :01:16.Good evening. I'm Joanne from Leeds. I'm undecided. I don't know which
:01:17. > :01:21.way to vote. I need convincing arguments to decide either way. I'm
:01:22. > :01:24.Hayley, 23 from Glasgow. This referendum is really important. Not
:01:25. > :01:29.a lot of young people my age are talking about it. I want to know how
:01:30. > :01:34.it will affect me personally. Hello. I'm a student from London. I'm
:01:35. > :01:40.undecided because I feel as though both sides of the campaign focus too
:01:41. > :01:45.much on the bigger picture rather on how it will affect the individual
:01:46. > :01:47.whether we stay or We will try leave. And get answers tonight, as
:01:48. > :02:02.you might have gathered. there are 55 of them -
:02:03. > :02:05.all say they are undecided, These 40 people here all say they're
:02:06. > :02:08.going to vote leave and these 40 people here all say they're
:02:09. > :02:11.going to vote remain. At the end of the programme we'll
:02:12. > :02:13.ask our undecideds if they've heard anything
:02:14. > :02:18.to convince them either way. Also with us here in Glasgow,
:02:19. > :02:20.for Remain: Alan Johnson from Labour, who's a former Home
:02:21. > :02:22.Secretary. Alex Salmond, from the Scottish
:02:23. > :02:28.National Party, he's a former First Minister of Scotland,
:02:29. > :02:30.who ran the Scottish Government and is now their foreign
:02:31. > :02:32.affairs spokesperson. They want the UK to stay
:02:33. > :02:34.in the European Union. From the Leave side: Diane James,
:02:35. > :02:38.Deputy Chair of Ukip and a member Liam Fox, from the Conservative
:02:39. > :02:41.Party, he's a former They want the UK to leave
:02:42. > :03:06.the European Union. Our first question tonight. I'm 18,
:03:07. > :03:15.I'm a student. I'm currenting setting my A levels and plan on
:03:16. > :03:20.going to university. Will I have a job if we leave the EU is our
:03:21. > :03:23.economy strong enough? We've creating more jobs than anybody in
:03:24. > :03:28.Europe. That is why so many young people are coming from other parts
:03:29. > :03:35.of Europe to get parts in the UK. That is part of the question we
:03:36. > :03:39.aring at. We need to look at how we late to the global and European
:03:40. > :03:42.economy. It's about what country we want and world we want to live in.
:03:43. > :03:46.It's about making decisions. Young people, in particular, I think, are
:03:47. > :03:50.used to making many more decisions for themselves, what they want to
:03:51. > :03:55.read, how they get their news, communicate on social media and so
:03:56. > :04:01.on. Will he have a job if he leaves the EU? If you're good enough to get
:04:02. > :04:05.a job, you'll get a job. Who will actually control that economy that
:04:06. > :04:08.you're talking about? This is the bigger debate is about. I've never
:04:09. > :04:14.voted on a referendum in Europe either. I was too young, last time I
:04:15. > :04:17.was in school. I want to leave the European Union I want control of the
:04:18. > :04:21.laws we live under. I want control...
:04:22. > :04:25.APPLAUSE. I want to get control of our borders so we stop under
:04:26. > :04:29.controlled migration and I want to ensure that we use the money that we
:04:30. > :04:33.have in the best way for our priorities in this country.
:04:34. > :04:36.Including how we stimulate our own economy and how we make sure we have
:04:37. > :04:40.the highest possible standard of living. You can only have control of
:04:41. > :04:45.those things if we leave the European Union.
:04:46. > :04:51.APPLAUSE. Did that answer your question? Sort of. What do you think
:04:52. > :04:57.he said? He's addressed the small parts of it. He's not addressed the
:04:58. > :05:00.examples of our economy is, sort of, being pushed by unskilled migrants
:05:01. > :05:04.coming in from Eastern Europe. They are driving our economy forward. If
:05:05. > :05:08.we are going to close that level and that route of migration, how are we
:05:09. > :05:13.going to replace it? I will bring in Alan Johnson now. Will he have a job
:05:14. > :05:20.if Britain votes to leave the European Union? Yes, I think he will
:05:21. > :05:26.have a better chance of a good, well-paid decent job because part of
:05:27. > :05:29.our argument is the opportunities that are there in the European
:05:30. > :05:33.Union. So already Liam's pointing to the fact that our economy is
:05:34. > :05:37.successful. That's as part of the European Union, part of this huge
:05:38. > :05:43.single market. 520 million consumers that we are selling to. It's not
:05:44. > :05:47.complete yet. It's not complete, something that is important to young
:05:48. > :05:51.people, which is services. The creative industries. Music. All
:05:52. > :05:56.those things we do well in this country, most analysis says if we
:05:57. > :06:01.complete the single market in services, along with digital gaming,
:06:02. > :06:05.the new opportunities opening, it will create 700 to 800,000 new jobs
:06:06. > :06:08.over the coming years. I think this is the start of an even bigger
:06:09. > :06:13.opportunity if we remain in the European Union. OK. You go to
:06:14. > :06:18.university in the autumn, did you say? At the moment, I'm tending
:06:19. > :06:22.towards staying in, from what I heard now is staying in the Leave
:06:23. > :06:26.campaign. Sure. Are you going to university in the autumn? Yes. What
:06:27. > :06:31.do you want to study? Economics and politics. OK. Diane James, if
:06:32. > :06:35.Britain votes to leave, are there going to be jobs? You know what the
:06:36. > :06:38.Bank of England warned, you know what the Treasury warned, he is
:06:39. > :06:44.worried about that? You stand a far better chance of a good job, a job
:06:45. > :06:47.that you're not competing with potentially thousands of other
:06:48. > :06:53.Europeans if we actually leave the European Union. Now, we've got 2.2
:06:54. > :06:59.million EU workers here already. They have taken effectively UK jobs.
:07:00. > :07:06.We have high UK unemployment, 1.7 million. We have really still very
:07:07. > :07:12.unacceptably high youth unemployment at just under 700,000. Just to do
:07:13. > :07:17.the maths. You know, 1.7 plus 700,000, that's 2.4, we have 2.2
:07:18. > :07:21.million foreigners here. Now, if we continue as an EU member state, you
:07:22. > :07:27.have only to look at the state of the unemployment market for young
:07:28. > :07:30.people in the southern Mediterranean countries, some instances of 53%
:07:31. > :07:35.unemployment rates for people like you. Your age group. So it's got to
:07:36. > :07:39.be a case of, come out to guarantee yourself a really good job, to
:07:40. > :07:45.guarantee yourself a job and one that you don't have to compete for.
:07:46. > :07:50.APPLAUSE. Alex Salmond, you're on the Remain side, you want him to
:07:51. > :07:54.vote to stay in the European Union. Is he going to get a job? When he
:07:55. > :07:58.graduates, is he more likely to get a job if Britain is in the European
:07:59. > :08:04.Union or out? Well, he's more likely, if we stay in the European
:08:05. > :08:09.Union because there will be more jobs in that circumstance. The young
:08:10. > :08:13.man is studying economics you will be able to answer your own question
:08:14. > :08:18.in three or four years time. In the meantime, I don't go with the
:08:19. > :08:23.scaremongering stuff. You mentioned the Treasury and the Bank of England
:08:24. > :08:25.recently. The Treasury says it will be apocalypse if Britain left the
:08:26. > :08:28.European Union. I don't believe. That I believe what the Bank of
:08:29. > :08:33.England says, which is that there will be less growth and less jobs.
:08:34. > :08:38.The bulk of independent forecasters say the same thing. So, I think
:08:39. > :08:45.staying in the European Union because of the single market,
:08:46. > :08:48.therefore you have a better chance of a job. There is one other aspect.
:08:49. > :08:54.Being in the European Union means that, not just a single market of
:08:55. > :08:58.500 million. It's a community of 500 million people. You have the ability
:08:59. > :09:04.to travel, to work, to visit, without a visa, you can go to
:09:05. > :09:07.Barcelona, watch decent football. You have that whole European
:09:08. > :09:11.Community at your disposal. A qualified person in particular has
:09:12. > :09:15.an excellent chance of employment. The straight answer is it wouldn't
:09:16. > :09:19.be an economic apocalypse if we left the European Union, but there are
:09:20. > :09:25.more Jobs and more chances if we stay in. All right. Let's hear from
:09:26. > :09:34.some people on the Remain side. Hello. I'm Richard, from London. I'm
:09:35. > :09:40.a buying assistant in London. If you look statistically, the European
:09:41. > :09:45.Union has stagnated economic growth. Now, economic growth builds jobs.
:09:46. > :09:51.How, in any case, if he's looking to get a job, once he graduates,
:09:52. > :09:56.surely, out of the EU, if you look at countries like Switzerland,
:09:57. > :10:00.Norway or the Asian markets, like Singapore, you can see all these
:10:01. > :10:05.countries are independent. They've had far more economic growth. On
:10:06. > :10:09.average in the EU we had 3% per annum. It's terrible. The EU is
:10:10. > :10:18.stagnating growth within the economy. Economic growth delivers
:10:19. > :10:23.jobs, simple as. Hi. Yes. I'm from London. You say that 2.3 million
:10:24. > :10:29.workers coming to Europe is a bad thing. Why is that? They're helping
:10:30. > :10:33.our economy. Secondly, tomorrow I could decide to pack up my bags and
:10:34. > :10:38.move to Spain to start the business I have that opportunity. By leaving
:10:39. > :10:43.I don't have that opportunity. Wherever you are in the UK
:10:44. > :10:51.you can join us too, Liam Fox, you are on the Leave side.
:10:52. > :10:55.How many jobs would be lost if Britain voted to leave the European
:10:56. > :11:00.Union? I don't think we know exactly what the impact will be one way or
:11:01. > :11:02.another. The one thing I'm clear is the economic forecasters nearly
:11:03. > :11:06.always get it wrong. The point has been made that the European economy
:11:07. > :11:10.is stagnating because of the euro. A million jobs have been lost in
:11:11. > :11:16.Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy combined over the past five years.
:11:17. > :11:19.That is - has an impact on us because it clearly means a lot of
:11:20. > :11:23.young people will come to the UK. The Bank of England has said that
:11:24. > :11:27.every 10% rise in the migrant population in the UK depresses wages
:11:28. > :11:32.by about a further 2%. It's not just a question of jobs, it's the impact
:11:33. > :11:38.it's having on the wider economy and the European economy is now the
:11:39. > :11:41.lowest growing continent in the world apart from Antarctica. It's
:11:42. > :11:47.not what the we want to tie ourselves to. How much job losses
:11:48. > :11:51.will there be if Britain decide to stay in the European Union, the
:11:52. > :11:56.shackling to the block of countries where growth is stagnating? What the
:11:57. > :12:00.gentleman said is interesting, look, what about Switzerland and Norway.
:12:01. > :12:04.It's absolutely true, if the UK negotiated an economic area
:12:05. > :12:09.agreement like Norway then you could minimise the economic damage. You
:12:10. > :12:14.would end up accepting the European regulations without having any say.
:12:15. > :12:18.No way accepts the regulations and accepts free movement of people. If
:12:19. > :12:23.you wanted to be a mid-Atlantic Singapore. Singapore is a small
:12:24. > :12:29.country in a large trading area. The UK would be a big country out with a
:12:30. > :12:34.large trading area. Singapore benefits. Many years ago Singapore -
:12:35. > :12:39.I know these people were developing nations. They've grown. We were a
:12:40. > :12:45.developed nation. That is going to saturate out. We can't continue
:12:46. > :12:51.growth at the same rate. I take your point. We are growing at a
:12:52. > :12:54.hindrance. I was in Singapore recently, nobody says they want to
:12:55. > :12:59.leave the trading area. Nobody says they will leave that trading area -
:13:00. > :13:03.It's naive to think we can't trade with Europe. Why are we regarding
:13:04. > :13:08.these people who come from Europe as a negative? These are hard-working
:13:09. > :13:13.people who are earning a living. Who are contributing to the country.
:13:14. > :13:17.Making the country grow. You described the apocalyptic forecast
:13:18. > :13:21.from the Treasury. The Chancellor, George Osborne, you are on the same
:13:22. > :13:25.side as him. I want to ask the audience here, when you hear those
:13:26. > :13:31.forecasts of a recession, half a million job losses in the next two
:13:32. > :13:36.years, said the Chancellor. Youth unemployment rising by 10%, answer
:13:37. > :13:43.yes or no, do you believe those economic forecasts? NO! OK. That was
:13:44. > :13:48.broadly a no, I would say. These are people on your side. It was a loud
:13:49. > :13:54.no from over there. No from these people as well and the undecideds
:13:55. > :13:57.who need to be convinced. People don't believe some of those
:13:58. > :14:04.forecasts from the people on your side? It's every single assess am.
:14:05. > :14:09.Oxford Economics London, school of Economics, Price Waterhouse Cooper.
:14:10. > :14:14.The IMF, OECD and then it was the Treasury forecasts. Now - You heard
:14:15. > :14:17.what people said. Sure. Yesterday the Institute for Fiscal Studies,
:14:18. > :14:21.highly respected, rubbished by the Leave side, as anyone who I is as
:14:22. > :14:26.anything they disagree with get shouted at. The Institue of Fiscal
:14:27. > :14:30.Studies said it will take take 5% out of our economy. One point, the
:14:31. > :14:34.guy over there said - we are the fifth largest economy in the world.
:14:35. > :14:37.We have been members of the European Union for 43 years, maybe that has
:14:38. > :14:39.something to do with us being the fifth largest.
:14:40. > :14:49.APPLAUSE. That's not logical, because if the
:14:50. > :14:57.economic well-being was to do with just being in the European Union,
:14:58. > :15:08.how come the European Union is at a 21%? It's part of it. -- at 8.1%.
:15:09. > :15:14.Michael from Glasgow. I'm 26 and a cleaner from Glasgow. My question
:15:15. > :15:18.is, the Chancellor George Osborne says that Britain leaving EU would
:15:19. > :15:24.cause a drop in house prices. In a your audience of young people who
:15:25. > :15:30.are likely to struggle throughout their lives to afford affordable
:15:31. > :15:37.housing, why is this a bad thing? I'm always puzzled by the British
:15:38. > :15:40.obsession with house prices. And in relation to that, where ever you
:15:41. > :15:44.live in this country, we seemed to think that the fact houses are very
:15:45. > :15:50.expensive and difficult to buy is a good thing. I tend to agree it's a
:15:51. > :15:54.bad thing. All those economic reports I mention are about interest
:15:55. > :15:58.rates and unemployment rates going up and our economy tanking and a
:15:59. > :16:03.large chunk of wealth being lost. As we turn our back on the biggest
:16:04. > :16:10.commercial market in the world, bigger than America and China, and
:16:11. > :16:16.we would be walking away from it. It's the biggest trading block... We
:16:17. > :16:26.still would be. Michael Astor question. -- Michael asked the
:16:27. > :16:34.question. Why is this being part of the debate, isn't it is is an
:16:35. > :16:41.example of a cynical and political debate? There is cynicism in both
:16:42. > :16:46.sides of the debate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in my view
:16:47. > :16:54.scaremongers on the economy and the Leave side scaremongers on
:16:55. > :16:59.immigration. All of the reputable independent forecasters, they don't
:17:00. > :17:05.forecast economic apocalypse but they certainly forecast damage if we
:17:06. > :17:08.leave the marketplace. We are not the responsible parties for the
:17:09. > :17:13.utterances of George Osborne, believe me, so we want to put a
:17:14. > :17:16.positive argument for being in the European Union across tonight. We
:17:17. > :17:21.want to look at the achievements, and we are happy to discuss where it
:17:22. > :17:24.has gone wrong and get a bit of idealism and belief and commitment
:17:25. > :17:28.in this debate and leave the scaremongering behind. That will not
:17:29. > :17:36.win votes. Ideas and principal will win the votes. Diane James? It's
:17:37. > :17:39.interesting, and I take the point about immigration... What about the
:17:40. > :17:49.point Michael raised about house prices? I will make the link, on the
:17:50. > :17:54.basis that your point is about can you afford a house, effectively? Can
:17:55. > :17:59.you, if we remain a member of the European Union, is that a remote
:18:00. > :18:03.possibility? My response is that it probably isn't. Because if we can't
:18:04. > :18:07.control the number of people coming here, hence my point is to yourself,
:18:08. > :18:12.you will never be able to catch up and you can't plan. One of the
:18:13. > :18:17.aspects Alan Johnson's party makes all the time is the responsibility
:18:18. > :18:20.of national government to provide sufficient infrastructure including
:18:21. > :18:24.housing. I have no problem with that, but if you don't know how many
:18:25. > :18:28.people are coming in, if your local authorities have no idea how to
:18:29. > :18:32.plan, what to plan for, and what the demand will be, and we have seen
:18:33. > :18:36.with today's statistics, I think your question is quite frankly, I
:18:37. > :18:40.think your chances of affording a home are questionable if we continue
:18:41. > :18:48.as a member of the European Union. Liam Fox? I have no problem with
:18:49. > :18:55.controlled migration and it can bring... We are talking about house
:18:56. > :18:59.prices. I'm coming to that. I have no problem with migration and
:19:00. > :19:03.controlled migration can bring benefits. But an uncontrolled number
:19:04. > :19:08.will put pressure on public services, on the health service and
:19:09. > :19:11.on schools and housing. No government in the past 40 years has
:19:12. > :19:16.built enough houses. It's a supply and demand problem. But if you
:19:17. > :19:21.increase your population by 3 million in the last five years, as
:19:22. > :19:28.we have, it means you have a housing shortage on top of a very all
:19:29. > :19:31.difficult situation. I think we need an increase in housing supply to
:19:32. > :19:35.bring house prices down. It can't just be about those who have houses
:19:36. > :19:47.already, it's about young people being able to get into housing.
:19:48. > :19:55.Another house question. Emily from Poole. I'm a music the juice, I live
:19:56. > :20:08.with my mum in eight council house. My mum is disabled. -- music
:20:09. > :20:15.producer. We need a new house but immigrants have bumped us down the
:20:16. > :20:18.list. I wouldn't make that connection. If we have a housing
:20:19. > :20:28.shortage we should build more houses. That's how we respond.
:20:29. > :20:36.Not kick people out the country. The element of scaremongering about
:20:37. > :20:40.immigration, 3.5% of the population of Scotland is from the rest of the
:20:41. > :20:44.European Union. If you go outside tonight in Glasgow and stop 100
:20:45. > :20:51.people, the likelihood is that three of them will come from the European
:20:52. > :20:54.Union. About 5% across the UK. Liam Fox says how about the pressure on
:20:55. > :21:04.the health service? What about the people from the rest of Europe
:21:05. > :21:09.working in the health service? Let's just say that Boris Johnson
:21:10. > :21:16.disagreed his jaw this evening from overuse -- dislocated his jaw. If he
:21:17. > :21:19.went to the hospital local to him where 10% of his doctors and nurses
:21:20. > :21:23.were from the European Union, and he said he didn't want treatment
:21:24. > :21:26.because that person was from Estonia, it's nonsense, they are
:21:27. > :21:34.hard-working people contributing to this country. Emily wants to come
:21:35. > :21:38.back. I'm not saying they are not hard-working, but at the same time
:21:39. > :21:42.we do not have enough houses now, how are we supposed to house them
:21:43. > :21:47.when we do not have enough houses as it is? Where will we put them? I'm
:21:48. > :21:56.graduating next month. Congratulations. I'm from Aberdeen,
:21:57. > :22:04.like Alex, and my point is about immigration first half. You need to
:22:05. > :22:07.factor in that we also go to Europe on mass, more so than we have ever
:22:08. > :22:12.done before. As young people in this audience, how many of us go on
:22:13. > :22:18.holiday this summer or at Christmas and don't think twice about it. We
:22:19. > :22:22.do so much with Europe. We aren't their partners and neighbours. Think
:22:23. > :22:28.about Calais, how will the Jungle be dealt with if we are not still in
:22:29. > :22:31.Europe? On housing, look at the directives the European Union has
:22:32. > :22:35.helped with, especially with rented homes and council housing. It's
:22:36. > :22:40.because of the EU we have certain regulations that allow us to have
:22:41. > :22:45.spacious rooms. Before then a box sized room was classed as a bedroom.
:22:46. > :22:49.That was completely unfair and you could Peyroux end of three or ?400
:22:50. > :22:58.per month for a room the size of the desk. -- pay rent. Emily and her mum
:22:59. > :23:01.need to realise that the UK Government are the people that can
:23:02. > :23:12.build council houses. The European Union are not a scapegoat for you to
:23:13. > :23:16.keep blaming. I didn't actually say I'm blaming them. I'm just saying
:23:17. > :23:21.that at the moment that is the issue. That is an issue at the
:23:22. > :23:28.moment. Go to your local MP. We have tried that. We have a housing
:23:29. > :23:31.shortage now, but the more we let in, the less houses we will have two
:23:32. > :23:39.house them. How do you work that out? It's funny you have a selective
:23:40. > :23:43.memory bastion of immigrants like my family, and a lot of people in this
:23:44. > :23:51.audience, they have built this nation. It's not just at the
:23:52. > :23:56.immigrants we are having problems with. The housing as it is, with all
:23:57. > :24:03.of us. Who has a house here in this age group? Emily, will you be voting
:24:04. > :24:09.to leave? I want to leave! That's absolutely clear. You are voting to
:24:10. > :24:13.leave because you think it will reduce net migration to the country?
:24:14. > :24:22.Not just that, but it needs to be controlled. We give ?350 million per
:24:23. > :24:28.week to the EU, 50 million per day. No we don't. Can we not afford to
:24:29. > :24:36.build houses and give Emily's mum the house she needs Westwood we
:24:37. > :24:43.don't give --? We don't give ?350 million per week. The figure is
:24:44. > :24:49.wrong, they have been told to stop using it but it's on the side of the
:24:50. > :24:56.bus. It's about half... I know we have no interest in the facts. Have
:24:57. > :25:00.you not heard Boris Johnson's story? According to the analysis we get
:25:01. > :25:07.between three and ten times that value back because of the
:25:08. > :25:13.opportunity to use that single market and trading. 50% of our
:25:14. > :25:16.exports, seven out of the ten biggest countries we export to our
:25:17. > :25:22.in the European Union. Liam Fox is disagreeing. It's profoundly wrong.
:25:23. > :25:27.If you look at how much we give to the European Union and how much we
:25:28. > :25:33.get back, there is a net difference of around ?10 billion per year. It's
:25:34. > :25:41.not 350 million per week. That's a gross figure. It's about 10 billion
:25:42. > :25:44.per year. Does anybody think we couldn't use ?10 billion to help
:25:45. > :25:50.improve the quality of the health service or housing or anything else?
:25:51. > :25:59.Just to be clear, that means you wouldn't be using some of that... It
:26:00. > :26:03.is 8.5 billion net. That means you wouldn't use some of that 8.5
:26:04. > :26:09.billion net to pay subsidies to farmers that the EU pays, two
:26:10. > :26:18.playgrounds to poorer regions of the UK? That's the net figure. -- pay
:26:19. > :26:23.Antz. There is around the 10 billion some that we pay in net and it's
:26:24. > :26:27.about control, and how we use that money for the priorities in our
:26:28. > :26:31.country. I'm not against migration, but it's about controlling it so we
:26:32. > :26:37.get the best of both worlds for the country. When you have an
:26:38. > :26:43.uncontrolled figure, you unavoidably put pressure on public services, on
:26:44. > :26:47.schools and hospitals and GPs and housing. It's unavoidable if you
:26:48. > :26:50.have that very big number. It's not about stopping it, it's about
:26:51. > :26:55.understanding what you can get from it, but it's for us to have control
:26:56. > :26:58.and for us in our own country do decide that number.
:26:59. > :27:01.By the way, the deadline for registering to vote and having
:27:02. > :27:04.your say on whether the UK leaves or remains in the EU
:27:05. > :27:18.A couple of tweets... Stuart Young says, will the economy be strong
:27:19. > :27:22.enough if we leave? Ghost towns on Twitter says people should look at
:27:23. > :27:27.the bigger picture rather than their own personal gain when it comes to
:27:28. > :27:37.the referendum. Mellon who is going to vote to remain is that Britain
:27:38. > :27:44.has three votes in Europe as well as over the foreigners. Amanda Craig
:27:45. > :27:53.from Glasgow. I'm a student from Glasgow. My question is, both the
:27:54. > :27:57.Remain and Leave campaigns seem to be using project fear tactics. Where
:27:58. > :28:05.is the positive case from both sides? Alex Salmond? I absolutely
:28:06. > :28:09.agree with that point. You agree both campaigns are using negative
:28:10. > :28:13.tactics? We have been through the recent referendum in Scotland and
:28:14. > :28:18.it's almost as if project fear in the Scottish referendum has been
:28:19. > :28:24.divided in two and one half is the Remain campaign led from London, and
:28:25. > :28:28.the other half is the Out campaign led from London. That's not the way
:28:29. > :28:34.to lead these campaigns. We have four weeks to go, and if we want to
:28:35. > :28:37.engage people, Alan Johnson and I have to argue the benefits and
:28:38. > :28:45.achievements and the rights Europe has given us. But project fear won
:28:46. > :28:57.in Scotland? It worked! We started the Yes campaign in Scotland on a
:28:58. > :29:00.small percentage of the vote. The Remain campaign can't afford to lose
:29:01. > :29:06.1% per month otherwise they will lose. To win a campaign and to
:29:07. > :29:10.motivate people, you have to argue a positive case. Leave the
:29:11. > :29:15.scaremongering behind and argue the positive case. Asking the undecided
:29:16. > :29:24.people, have the campaigners risen to the challenge? Have they risen to
:29:25. > :29:29.the occasion? I'm 21, and I just want to say, here we are again. We
:29:30. > :29:34.are gathered around at exorbitant expenses to be here, and once again
:29:35. > :29:40.we have deflections, insults and petty name-calling. I'm going to ask
:29:41. > :29:46.all of you individually and I want an answer, do you actually believe
:29:47. > :29:51.your own campaigns? The Leave campaign will throw out a figure
:29:52. > :29:55.that you will rubbish, and you will each rubbish each other. What are we
:29:56. > :29:56.supposed to do? I have no idea what to do and I blame you lot entirely
:29:57. > :30:06.for that. More views on the campaign? Hello.
:30:07. > :30:12.Jason from Dundee. What do you think of the campaign so far? Has it
:30:13. > :30:17.engaged? I agree with Kieran. I'm hearing tit-for-tat. Is it any
:30:18. > :30:20.wonder we are sat here undecided when we hear petty arguments across
:30:21. > :30:23.the room. It's what Alex were saying, they have the economy on one
:30:24. > :30:28.side, they have immigration on the other. That's the card they play.
:30:29. > :30:33.Get the emotions ramped up. People argue - guess what, more people in
:30:34. > :30:38.the middle than either side. How significant a decision is it for
:30:39. > :30:46.you? For me, I'm one of the older ones here, on the closer side of 30
:30:47. > :30:52.than most people. I'm a homeowner and work for a multi nation company
:30:53. > :30:56.based in the UK. The important issues, the impact on my job,
:30:57. > :31:00.security, interest rates, mortgage rates, travel across Europe and
:31:01. > :31:04.enjoy holidays. It all matters to me. I'm not hearing any good reasons
:31:05. > :31:08.from either side at the moment. I'm just hearing tit-for-tat. I want to
:31:09. > :31:15.ask Leave and Remain. What do you think of the Leave campaign? I think
:31:16. > :31:20.the Leave campaign have been scaremongering, it's appalling. Your
:31:21. > :31:23.own side has been appalling. In what way they have been scaremongering?
:31:24. > :31:28.The noise about immigration. How awful it will be if we stay, but I
:31:29. > :31:32.mean I do want to leave. I think we will be better if we do leave. I
:31:33. > :31:38.think we should be putting across the good points. I want to ask the
:31:39. > :31:41.Remain side, if David Cameron believes all this scaremongering we
:31:42. > :31:45.will have a World War II I, our economy will be completely awful,
:31:46. > :31:49.why are we having a referendum? Surely someone that cares about the
:31:50. > :31:56.country wouldn't give us one if it was that dangerous? We are where we
:31:57. > :32:01.are, aren't we? I will come back in a second. What do you think about
:32:02. > :32:03.the Remain side's campaign? I think the Remain campaign should be
:32:04. > :32:10.talking about the benefits within Europe. What you think of it so far,
:32:11. > :32:16.what is wrong with it? Focussing too much on the economy. Apathy is the
:32:17. > :32:21.biggest winner in any UK election. I can see it happening again. I can
:32:22. > :32:27.see the election being won with less than 50% of the population, in all
:32:28. > :32:31.honesty. People won't turn out to vote. If that turns out to be the
:32:32. > :32:36.case, are you saying that's because of the quality of the debate? The
:32:37. > :32:40.quality of the debate, tit-for-tat. Useless politicians argument. More
:32:41. > :32:46.should be done to speak about the benefits of staying within Europe.
:32:47. > :32:52.Every single one here owns a smartphone. EU. I say EU. I'm using
:32:53. > :32:59.it as an umbrella term, I beg your pardon, I will use EU. Give her a
:33:00. > :33:06.chance. Let her finish the sentence. Go on. The two to me are
:33:07. > :33:14.interchangeable. Here we are, a perfect example of tit-for-tat. Can
:33:15. > :33:19.I finish? Excuse me. Hang on a minute. Finish your sentence. The
:33:20. > :33:26.majority of us here all own a smartphone. Come the beginning of
:33:27. > :33:32.next month EU data charges will go down within Europe. Let me finish.
:33:33. > :33:35.Let me finish. It's a good reason. This feels like I'm in the House of
:33:36. > :33:37.Commons here and it's Prime Minister's Questions.
:33:38. > :33:50.APPLAUSE. Very aggressive. I went to France
:33:51. > :33:55.2012 my phone bill because I was uploading pictures - for goodness
:33:56. > :34:04.sake, be respectful, I will come to you in a moment. Was four phone bill
:34:05. > :34:08.more than ?350 million a week? From your own side your campaign is
:34:09. > :34:12.appalling, you concentrated on immigration and that's not good,
:34:13. > :34:18.according to the woman on your side. I don't agree that it's appalling.
:34:19. > :34:22.One of the aspects of concentrating on migration, not immigration, we
:34:23. > :34:26.concentrated on migration, on the basis that's one very clear example
:34:27. > :34:30.where the UK Government, people that you elect, people like the three
:34:31. > :34:35.gentlemen here, to represent you in the House of Commons, actually don't
:34:36. > :34:39.have control over a key aspect of the economy. So some of the
:34:40. > :34:43.questions that we've already had, the aspect that I brought up is
:34:44. > :34:48.that, if you can't control the number of people, if you can't
:34:49. > :34:52.control demand, because you can't control supply you are forever in a
:34:53. > :34:57.spiral downwards. You can control net migration from outside the EU.
:34:58. > :35:01.We had the latest figured today D-350,000 - Hang on a minute. As
:35:02. > :35:05.many people are coming from outside the EU, which Britain can control,
:35:06. > :35:11.as are coming from within the EU. Yes. What we do know is we want, for
:35:12. > :35:17.instance, more medics, more nurses, more engineers. Those key stem, if
:35:18. > :35:23.you like, people that have been trained in those key subjects. With
:35:24. > :35:30.he are unable to control that - If Britain left, how would you control
:35:31. > :35:34.EU immigration, what would change? By the simple basis... No, please.
:35:35. > :35:37.By the simple basis, if they meet the skills that this country
:35:38. > :35:46.actually wants, they would then become a priority. It would be
:35:47. > :35:50.visas? No, it wouldn't be visas. We know Alan we want doctors. If we
:35:51. > :35:55.have qualified doctors in Commonwealth countries, in
:35:56. > :35:59.Australia, New Zealand, Canada. France, Denmark, Estonia, Lithuania.
:36:00. > :36:06.Maybe. Why not have somebody from the Commonwealth, someone who speaks
:36:07. > :36:14.our language - Ah! I do have an issue with that, actually, Alan. I
:36:15. > :36:18.do. You want to respond to that? If I wanted a doctor a qualified
:36:19. > :36:20.Lithuanian, French, German, Danish doctor would do me just fine.
:36:21. > :36:31.APPLAUSE. We had an interesting exchange
:36:32. > :36:36.between two members of the audience. The lady talked about how roaming
:36:37. > :36:41.charges would be abolished. That's an achievement of the European
:36:42. > :36:45.Union. Not the biggest achievement. The lady saying, that's nothing like
:36:46. > :36:50.the fake figure of ?350 million a week. If you take the real figure it
:36:51. > :36:56.translates into 23p a day for every one of us. About half a Mars bar. I
:36:57. > :37:00.don't know what the young lady's phone bill, I'm sure her roaming
:37:01. > :37:04.charges were more than 26p a day. It's not the most important thing
:37:05. > :37:09.about Europe, but it's a significant achievement. More questions to come.
:37:10. > :37:12.Do not worry. I can see people with their hands up. We will come to you.
:37:13. > :37:42.Let me tell you. We will take two questions: It's
:37:43. > :37:46.clear people living in the UK enjoy moving and travelling around Europe.
:37:47. > :37:50.My question is. If we were to leave the EU, how difficult would it be to
:37:51. > :37:57.move and travel around Europe in the future? Let us hear your question,
:37:58. > :38:02.Stephanie. Hi. I'm a student and I intend to study abroad at some
:38:03. > :38:06.point. What will we lose and gain in terms of international relations and
:38:07. > :38:10.travel if we leave the EU? OK. Shall we take that one first? Liam Fox. I
:38:11. > :38:14.don't think you need to lose anything at all. There is a world
:38:15. > :38:21.outside the European Union. People do go and study and travel and have
:38:22. > :38:24.holidays elsewhere. My dad was taught French and Spanish, long
:38:25. > :38:28.before we were in the European Union we had holidays in France and Spain.
:38:29. > :38:32.People did continue to go and study in other countries. That will
:38:33. > :38:36.continue. Why do we have these arrangements? It's genuinely in the
:38:37. > :38:40.interests of both parties to do so. People want to come and study in our
:38:41. > :38:42.country. It's good for us to study elsewhere. The idea because we are
:38:43. > :38:49.not in the European Union you will not be able to have a holiday in
:38:50. > :38:55.Mallorca. To be fair, no-one is suggest we won't be able to have a
:38:56. > :38:59.holiday in Mallorca. The complete University Guide says as members of
:39:00. > :39:05.the EU anyone here would be able to study in EU nations as home students
:39:06. > :39:10.compared to fees charged to international students, home fees
:39:11. > :39:15.are lower or non-existent. The difference between Europe and the
:39:16. > :39:18.European Union. Programmes have bigger student programmes - An
:39:19. > :39:21.exchange programme. It's not just the European Union. It's the
:39:22. > :39:26.European continent. It's countries like Turkey as well, Norway,
:39:27. > :39:31.Iceland. Europe is a great continent of individual nations with their own
:39:32. > :39:38.history. The European Union's a political construct. Europe and
:39:39. > :39:42.exchange and trade and travel existed before there was a European
:39:43. > :39:47.Union. Stephanie's fees may be higher if Britain is outside the
:39:48. > :39:51.European Union if they wants to study at a university abroad? Why
:39:52. > :39:58.would it be. The programmes are decided in the mutual interest. It's
:39:59. > :40:01.the same as trade. We had all these programmes before we were in the
:40:02. > :40:04.European Union and we will have them when we're not in the European
:40:05. > :40:08.Union. Just as we have programmes and people study in the United
:40:09. > :40:13.States or Canada. I don't have a lot of money. I'm working-class. I have
:40:14. > :40:17.a tiny wage, I'm on a zero-hour contract, where am I supposed to get
:40:18. > :40:21.the money for these increased fees? How am I supposed to support myself
:40:22. > :40:28.in another country if it's not going to be treated like home?
:40:29. > :40:33.APPLAUSE. But you're making an assumption here
:40:34. > :40:38.that because we're not in the European Union Germany will not want
:40:39. > :40:41.German students to come to the UK and we won't want to study in
:40:42. > :40:44.Germany. That doesn't make sense. We will have agreements because it's in
:40:45. > :40:49.both our interests to do so. I want to make a point. It comes back to
:40:50. > :40:54.what Diane said. It's a crucial issue about whether or not we're
:40:55. > :40:58.outside the European Union we would need visas to travel. We have a
:40:59. > :41:02.beneficial system we can go anywhere within the European Union, it's a
:41:03. > :41:05.two-way process. No other country has more of its citizens living and
:41:06. > :41:11.working in other developed countries than Great Britain. Now, if we're
:41:12. > :41:16.not to have visas, Diane you said we wouldn't, to go on holiday or people
:41:17. > :41:21.to come here. There are 2.5 million tourists who come to Scotland every
:41:22. > :41:25.year. How are you going to differentiate between the Polish
:41:26. > :41:30.plumber and al-Polish tourist. It means surely a system of visas if
:41:31. > :41:35.you haven't got a system of visas you will be telling people we will
:41:36. > :41:41.stop free movement you will not introduce visas so free movement
:41:42. > :41:44.will be there. Unless you put a border or watchtowers between the
:41:45. > :41:47.Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland you will have people coming
:41:48. > :41:53.across there. It would be an EU country and a non-EU country. So
:41:54. > :41:57.that's dealing also with the point about easy - you can get-up-and-go
:41:58. > :42:06.anywhere in Europe. I could leave right now if I wanted to - Bye. You
:42:07. > :42:10.can come with me if you want, we can go together. Don't laugh, I'm
:42:11. > :42:16.serious. I haven't got a visa! Can you be
:42:17. > :42:22.clear about this. Are you saying if Britain votes to leave there would
:42:23. > :42:29.be visas or not? Victoria, we just don't know. We just don't know.
:42:30. > :42:34.Because we have a Prime Minister who has said there is no plan B. He's
:42:35. > :42:39.not presented a single bit of detail as to what happens if we vote to
:42:40. > :42:44.leave. He's left it all completely open. We've even got a civil service
:42:45. > :42:49.that would - with a what it would feel like, what it would like. I'm
:42:50. > :42:55.responding by saying we don't know, I don't believe we will need visas
:42:56. > :42:59.we seem to be - it's part of the Project Fear. If we leave all of a
:43:00. > :43:04.sudden fortress Europe puts up the barriers and stops all of this
:43:05. > :43:09.happening. It's - what is very clear, from Mr Juncker, in the
:43:10. > :43:12.European Parliament, he is the one who started the scaremongering this
:43:13. > :43:19.time round. In the last few days we have been accused of being
:43:20. > :43:23.deserters. Responsible politicians and responsible Prime Minister that
:43:24. > :43:27.conducts the negotiations and should have by this stage identified that
:43:28. > :43:34.sort of detail. Let us hear more from our audience, particularly the
:43:35. > :43:40.undecideds. Do introduce yourself. I'm Zara, 21, I'm an events manager.
:43:41. > :43:44.It seems to be in every single brought up will be to do with
:43:45. > :43:47.migration and immigration. Every point is tied into that. What I want
:43:48. > :43:53.to say to you guys. You are saying if people want to study in the EU,
:43:54. > :43:56.then that's fine that is mutually beneficial, both sides can go
:43:57. > :44:01.back-and-forth. Why would it be OK for us to send students abroad and
:44:02. > :44:06.students from abroad come to us, yet not allow people to live somewhere
:44:07. > :44:12.else and someone live and work here. Quick points. Down here. I would
:44:13. > :44:16.like to address the point about the Northern Irish border. I see a lot
:44:17. > :44:20.of people talking about that. It's not discussed in a mainstream
:44:21. > :44:24.debate. I want to the hear what the Leave side say about that, really
:44:25. > :44:29.The lady behind her, to take her point first. Yes, you are quite
:44:30. > :44:32.right. Where you get exchanges, whether it's students, people who
:44:33. > :44:36.are working, you can get mutual benefit from doing that. My problem
:44:37. > :44:41.with the European Union is it's uncontrolled when it comes to
:44:42. > :44:43.migration. I'm a doctor, I can see the benefit of other European
:44:44. > :44:47.doctors coming into this country. We need to control the total flow or
:44:48. > :44:51.you get a problem with access to things like the health service. On
:44:52. > :44:55.this gentleman's front. We had agreements with the Republic that
:44:56. > :44:58.were bilateral before we were in the European Union. Why would we want to
:44:59. > :45:02.have different arrangements today. They always worked before which were
:45:03. > :45:09.in the EU. To answer that question, which I don't think was answered.
:45:10. > :45:12.Just because we are able to travel freely, it's different from, working
:45:13. > :45:17.freely. I'm all for people being able to come as tourists freely into
:45:18. > :45:20.this country. If they want to work in the United Kingdom they would
:45:21. > :45:23.need to get a work permit, like somebody who came from outside the
:45:24. > :45:27.European Union. It's not beyond the wit of man to allow tourists to
:45:28. > :45:29.travel freely but make sure you have a work permit when you want to work
:45:30. > :45:38.here. You have a million people coming
:45:39. > :45:43.from Europe to take jobs in the UK. Nobody from Europe is coming to take
:45:44. > :45:47.British jobs if you have two GCSEs. They are not coming to do that.
:45:48. > :45:51.Doesn't matter who they are, if you have the qualifications and you can
:45:52. > :45:56.do the job, I don't see the problem with it. You even said earlier that
:45:57. > :46:01.you because of the great economy in the UK, arts of people from Europe
:46:02. > :46:07.are wanting to come to study here. Why is that a bad thing? I'm happy
:46:08. > :46:11.to have that but want to be able to control the process and control who
:46:12. > :46:16.comes to the UK. That's reasonable for British people to want to do
:46:17. > :46:22.that. I'm from Manchester and I'm a student. I take the gentleman's
:46:23. > :46:28.point, and the lady made an excellent point on immigration. I'm
:46:29. > :46:37.pro-migration, but I wonder for the Leave campaign, why would we
:46:38. > :46:40.discriminate against people from the EU, people bringing skills, and I
:46:41. > :46:47.think we should take people anyway, but if we want certain skills in
:46:48. > :46:52.particular, why would we discriminate against people from
:46:53. > :46:57.India and China? I think it's an excellent point. I'm currently
:46:58. > :47:01.battling to keep an Australian family who were attracted to the
:47:02. > :47:06.Highlands of Scotland in the homeland Islands campaign we had
:47:07. > :47:11.when I was First Minister, who now getting kicked out of the country. I
:47:12. > :47:16.think that family should be able to stay and contribute. When Stephanie
:47:17. > :47:20.asked a practical question about whether she would be able to study
:47:21. > :47:26.elsewhere in Europe, what we got from Diane was that she didn't know
:47:27. > :47:32.and Liam Watts to control the process which inevitably means
:47:33. > :47:38.either work permits or visas. -- and Liam said to control. Stephanie has
:47:39. > :47:40.an absolute right to go and study anywhere in the European Union. This
:47:41. > :47:55.side cannot guarantee that. We need a microphone otherwise we
:47:56. > :47:59.can't hear you. Hang on! That I lot of students here and you all choose
:48:00. > :48:06.to study in the UK. Why have you chosen to study in the UK and why
:48:07. > :48:12.did European students come here. If you are able to go abroad, why don't
:48:13. > :48:15.you? The reason is, you don't want to go into Europe, because we are
:48:16. > :48:21.better than them, and that's why we should vote to leave! Some comments
:48:22. > :48:31.from people listening and watching from the UK. A personal reason for
:48:32. > :48:37.me wanting to remain, living and working in the EU without any
:48:38. > :48:42.concerns. I think we can reform the UK once we leave the European Union
:48:43. > :48:49.and the globalisation and fits the ultrarich while penalising the poor.
:48:50. > :48:53.-- globalisation benefits. If you want to find out more
:48:54. > :48:56.about any of the issues that have come up tonight,
:48:57. > :48:58.the BBC's Reality Check have been fact checking all the details
:48:59. > :49:04.on the BBC News sites. Next question. I'm from Dundee and
:49:05. > :49:08.I'm a student. I'm wondering if Scotland voted one way and the rest
:49:09. > :49:16.of Britain voted the other way, would it lead to another unwanted
:49:17. > :49:19.independence referendum in Scotland? By definition it couldn't be
:49:20. > :49:25.unwonted, because it would have to be wanted, and it would only be if
:49:26. > :49:29.the Scottish parliament proposed it. It would create a democratic mandate
:49:30. > :49:32.for it so I think the Scottish Government would push for it even
:49:33. > :49:38.though it only went ahead two years ago. It would have to be a
:49:39. > :49:42.democratic mandate, because the First Minister last year in the
:49:43. > :49:46.general election said this, that if Scotland was dragged out of Europe
:49:47. > :49:51.against its will, it would be a change of circumstance to justify
:49:52. > :49:57.another referendum. The SNP won 56 out of 59 seats, in the recent
:49:58. > :50:00.Scottish election, it was in the SNP manifesto and there was another big
:50:01. > :50:07.victory for the SNP. By definition it cannot be... 47% of the vote, the
:50:08. > :50:12.biggest mandate of any governing party in Western Europe. I'm
:50:13. > :50:17.interested in hearing from the other Scots. You can only have the
:50:18. > :50:21.circumstance if the majority of the Scottish bond votes for it, and that
:50:22. > :50:26.means not just the SNP, but the Green party. By definition, it can
:50:27. > :50:31.only be wanted and it can only be democratic. If the circumstances
:50:32. > :50:35.arise that you describe, when might that second independence referendum
:50:36. > :50:40.be? It would have to be in the two-year period of the UK
:50:41. > :50:44.negotiating a withdrawal. If we had the situation where Scotland in four
:50:45. > :50:48.weeks' time votes to remain and the rest of the UK or England drags
:50:49. > :50:53.Scotland out by voting to leave, in my opinion that would justify
:50:54. > :50:58.another referendum, because during the 2014 referendum, the people of
:50:59. > :51:02.Scotland were told that voting no would secure Scotland's position in
:51:03. > :51:11.the European Union. It sounds ironic now, but that's what we said two
:51:12. > :51:17.years ago. Liam Fox, a Scotsman from an English constituency. Nicola
:51:18. > :51:19.Sturgeon said it was a once-in-a-lifetime referendum. It
:51:20. > :51:24.was Alex Salmond who said that. I don't know what the SNP didn't
:51:25. > :51:29.understand about the result. The Scottish people voted to stay in the
:51:30. > :51:33.United Kingdom. It's very important on the EU point. Our membership of
:51:34. > :51:39.the European Union is a decision we make as the United Kingdom. That's
:51:40. > :51:43.why in the referendum, every vote counts the same. We don't count them
:51:44. > :51:49.in constituencies or districts. Every vote is the same, Stornoway or
:51:50. > :51:53.St Ives, it's a decision for all the people of the United Kingdom and we
:51:54. > :51:57.should take it on the merits of the European Union debate and not be
:51:58. > :52:05.sidetracked into yet another fear campaign about a Scottish
:52:06. > :52:07.independence referendum. If there was another independence referendum
:52:08. > :52:12.in the next two years, would you win it? In the circumstances of Scotland
:52:13. > :52:16.being threatened of being dragged out of Europe against their will, I
:52:17. > :52:28.think it would be yes this time. Next question. I'm a student
:52:29. > :52:31.studying in Aberdeen. Would there be any disadvantages or advantages to
:52:32. > :52:39.the NHS depending on which way the vote went. You are a student nurse?
:52:40. > :52:44.Yes. Advantages and disadvantages for the NHS in voting to leave or
:52:45. > :52:49.stay. Diane James? It might sound like I'm repeating myself, but we
:52:50. > :52:54.could, by controlling who comes here, prioritise where we want
:52:55. > :53:01.people in terms of skills. We are bringing in a lot of foreign nurses.
:53:02. > :53:06.I think it's something like a 9000 deficit in terms of nursing numbers.
:53:07. > :53:09.I understand that the nursing training programme in the UK was
:53:10. > :53:12.effectively cancelled and that is why we have had to go elsewhere
:53:13. > :53:16.around the world to bring in nurses. I would far rather see people like
:53:17. > :53:21.herself go through the nursing training programme and work here.
:53:22. > :53:25.Equally I would like to see medics, like we have done over decades now,
:53:26. > :53:30.coming from Commonwealth countries like India and Pakistan, places like
:53:31. > :53:37.that. Unlike what Alec accused me off, I'm not against European NHS
:53:38. > :53:42.staff. What I said was, and let me correct you please, what I said was
:53:43. > :53:47.I would like to prioritise on people here in the United Kingdom, and
:53:48. > :53:51.prioritise on the skills that we actually want in terms of medics,
:53:52. > :53:55.nurses, doctors and surgeons, I don't care what they are, and we go
:53:56. > :54:01.to the countries where we have a good relationship, have had
:54:02. > :54:05.individuals from that country historically, and we can adjust them
:54:06. > :54:11.on that basis. Alan Johnson. Of all the arguments the Leave side are
:54:12. > :54:15.putting forward, the NHS is the most ludicrous. The current chief
:54:16. > :54:19.executive of the NHS and his two predecessors have said the NHS is a
:54:20. > :54:25.taxed based system. It's not a free system, it's free at the point of
:54:26. > :54:34.use, but paid by tax payers. If the economy shrinks the NHS is in
:54:35. > :54:38.trouble. All of those economic forecasts say the economy would be
:54:39. > :54:44.badly damaged. At the moment, this is the problem with the NHS, it
:54:45. > :54:48.needs to be at the European average spend. In Europe they spend about 9%
:54:49. > :54:54.of their wealth on the NHS. We were doing that up until 2010. It has now
:54:55. > :54:59.gone back to 6%. That's the problem, putting as much of our wealth into
:55:00. > :55:02.the NHS that matches the European average, not using the NHS as some
:55:03. > :55:10.kind of argument to leave the European Union. Do either of those
:55:11. > :55:17.answers help you reach? A little bit, yeah. What are you thinking of
:55:18. > :55:21.what they both said? I don't think Diane James answered my question, to
:55:22. > :55:30.be honest. It was just more of the same. Liam Fox. I trained as a
:55:31. > :55:34.doctor here in Glasgow. One of the things that's absolutely true about
:55:35. > :55:38.the NHS is, that from the beginning we have never really trained enough
:55:39. > :55:41.doctors given the way that medicine is expanding and the problems
:55:42. > :55:48.patients are having. We do need to have more doctors and I'm up for
:55:49. > :55:54.having them if they come from abroad. But wherever they come from,
:55:55. > :56:00.increasing numbers, it's a pressure. The head of the NHS has a deficit of
:56:01. > :56:08.2.45 billion pounds. And we send 10 billion to the European Union.
:56:09. > :56:09.Ladies and gentleman, about 55 people arrived here tonight
:56:10. > :56:12.undecided. In a second we're going to ask them,
:56:13. > :56:15.if it's okay with them, if any have reached a decision
:56:16. > :56:18.on how they're going to vote. You may still be undecided,
:56:19. > :56:21.and that in itself would be telling. But perhaps you've heard something
:56:22. > :56:24.tonight from one of our guests, or from a fellow audience member,
:56:25. > :56:27.that has helped you reach So, if you have made a decision,
:56:28. > :56:52.please do put you hand up now. Wow. About half of you. Would you
:56:53. > :56:59.agree? Let me ask you down at the front, what decision have you made
:57:00. > :57:06.and why? I would like to stay, remain part of the EU. What is it
:57:07. > :57:12.that you have heard? From question one, that was my mind made up, my
:57:13. > :57:16.main issue was about jobs. If you had decided to vote the other way,
:57:17. > :57:26.and you want to tell us why, but up your hand. I don't feel like the
:57:27. > :57:30.Remain campaign has given an idea of what potential reforms would be if
:57:31. > :57:35.we were to stay in the EU. It seems all is I'd think reform is heavily
:57:36. > :57:38.needed in the EU and the remains side don't give us an idea of what
:57:39. > :57:40.those reforms would be and how long they would take.
:57:41. > :57:42.And those who are still undecided, what is it that you still need
:57:43. > :57:58.What assurances do you need to make up your mind? There are a lot of
:57:59. > :58:03.different things people are saying about the budgets and how much we
:58:04. > :58:06.give and how much we take out. Nobody has an actual answer to what
:58:07. > :58:11.the nub is. People say different numbers. We need real, actual
:58:12. > :58:13.statistics that we can agree on. I hope we get those, but that's just
:58:14. > :58:17.me being helpful. The debate continues
:58:18. > :58:20.now on BBC Radio 5 Live Thank you to our politicians
:58:21. > :58:23.Alan Johnson, Alex Salmond, Thank you to our audience
:58:24. > :58:27.here in Glasgow and thank you to those
:58:28. > :58:31.of you watching and listening