0:00:02 > 0:00:05- STALLHOLDER:- Hello, dear, how are you this morning?
0:00:09 > 0:00:15Everywhere you look, the European Union is telling us what to do.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Now, does this cucumber look
0:00:20 > 0:00:23"reasonably shaped and practically straight?"
0:00:23 > 0:00:26Because if it doesn't, it cannot comply
0:00:26 > 0:00:31with EEC regulation 1677/88
0:00:31 > 0:00:34and be a Class 1 cucumber.
0:00:37 > 0:00:43And unless it was, "firm, free of abnormal external moisture
0:00:43 > 0:00:48"and with soft seeds", it wouldn't be an EU-approved cucumber at all.
0:00:51 > 0:00:55The notorious curved cucumbers rule has now been repealed,
0:00:55 > 0:00:58along with the one about bendy bananas.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01But all sorts of other fruit and vegetables
0:01:01 > 0:01:04all still have to meet EU standards.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11From bendy bananas to bright light bulbs,
0:01:11 > 0:01:13muffling our vacuum cleaners
0:01:13 > 0:01:16and regulating the power of our showers -
0:01:16 > 0:01:20the EU is all around us.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24It's that sort of pettifogging regulation which has turned
0:01:24 > 0:01:29moaning about Brussels red tape into a national sport.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32And let's face it, we're world-class at that.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37But do these rules signify something bigger?
0:01:37 > 0:01:44By being part of the EU, have we lost the right to rule ourselves?
0:01:44 > 0:01:49And in today's world, might we even be better off if we have?
0:02:00 > 0:02:05One lunchtime on a bitterly cold day in January 1649,
0:02:05 > 0:02:08so cold the River Thames had frozen over,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11the King of England was marched through this room
0:02:11 > 0:02:16and out of one of these windows here, onto a platform in Whitehall.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19There, he was to have his head cut off.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23In order to put King Charles I on trial, Oliver Cromwell's Parliament
0:02:23 > 0:02:29declared itself, not the King, the supreme authority in the land.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33Right to the end, Charles tried to cling to power.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36It was he who told the executioner to strike.
0:02:37 > 0:02:42With one clean blow, his head was cut from his body.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45From the crowd, there arose of what one eyewitness called,
0:02:45 > 0:02:48"a dismal, universal groan."
0:02:50 > 0:02:54The execution of a sovereign is the most dramatic example
0:02:54 > 0:02:58in our history of the way in which sovereignty -
0:02:58 > 0:03:03supreme authority - transferred from King to people.
0:03:03 > 0:03:08That question of sovereignty is also the central political question
0:03:08 > 0:03:11in our relationship with the European Union.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Has it gone from Britain to Brussels?
0:03:18 > 0:03:20Of course, the world has changed quite a lot
0:03:20 > 0:03:24in the last four centuries - there aren't many kings left to behead.
0:03:26 > 0:03:31The claim of the EU is that sharing that cherished, traditional notion
0:03:31 > 0:03:34of sovereignty leaves us all better off.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38The question is, how that works in practice.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42There's only one way to find out -
0:03:42 > 0:03:44I'm off to the glorious city of Brussels.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50Here in Belgium's capital, they love the idea of Europe.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52So much so, they've built their very own,
0:03:52 > 0:03:55EU-funded, miniature version.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06We became part of all this 40 years ago.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11But the organisation we joined was a very different beast
0:04:11 > 0:04:14from the one we now find ourselves in.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Thanks to decades of treaty-making and endless bargaining,
0:04:23 > 0:04:28the European Union of today is, well, pretty madly complicated.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33Just the buildings are confusing, there are loads of them -
0:04:33 > 0:04:37a Parliament, a Council, a Commission and a law court.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42But if we are to find out where true power lies -
0:04:42 > 0:04:45and that is rather the point of this programme -
0:04:45 > 0:04:47I'm afraid we have to dive in.
0:04:49 > 0:04:54Helpfully, perhaps, the EU's spent 21 million euros
0:04:54 > 0:04:57on a visitor centre at the European Parliament.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01- AUDIO GUIDE:- Welcome to the European Parliament in Brussels,
0:05:01 > 0:05:04the democratic centre of the European Project.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07"National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils
0:05:07 > 0:05:10"of our time and the only final remedy
0:05:10 > 0:05:13"is a federal union of the peoples."
0:05:13 > 0:05:15"Lord Lothian."
0:05:15 > 0:05:17Never heard of him.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21'..today, London is also the site of the European Medicines Agency.'
0:05:24 > 0:05:26"Move scanner over hot spot."
0:05:29 > 0:05:31Where's the hot spot?
0:05:31 > 0:05:34The Parlamentarium celebrates - if that's the right word -
0:05:34 > 0:05:36the EU's achievements across Europe.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42- CREW MEMBER:- I think the idea is to push it round.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44It's on wheels, see, you push it...
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Oh, you move this thing around. This is the scanner, is it?
0:05:47 > 0:05:51Right, let's see what they've got to say about Britain.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59'Edinburgh in the United Kingdom.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03'This is where storyteller JK Rowling
0:06:03 > 0:06:06'wrote the first of the Harry Potter books.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10'Harry Potter is one of Europe's best known and well loved stories,
0:06:10 > 0:06:12'but there are so many others...
0:06:13 > 0:06:16'..from the Danish fairy tales of Hans Christian Andersen
0:06:16 > 0:06:19'to the Italian story of Pinocchio.'
0:06:19 > 0:06:21The European Parliament is claiming credit
0:06:21 > 0:06:24for a great number of things, isn't it?
0:06:26 > 0:06:30The easiest bit of the EU to get your head around is the Parliament.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32'Work in the European Parliament
0:06:32 > 0:06:38'is the epitome of the European Union's motto - United In Diversity.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41'In fact, many of the laws that affect your daily life
0:06:41 > 0:06:44'are decided on a European level.'
0:06:46 > 0:06:47How does this work?
0:06:47 > 0:06:51Every member country gets a number of MEPs that is roughly
0:06:51 > 0:06:55proportional to its population and the general public votes for them.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57The point about this is you're supposed to be able
0:06:57 > 0:07:01to find your MEP here,
0:07:01 > 0:07:02and...
0:07:03 > 0:07:05..there is a mere 750 of them
0:07:05 > 0:07:10and, you know, I am marginally interested in politics.
0:07:10 > 0:07:11There are...
0:07:11 > 0:07:14Well, there is not one I recognise, actually, here.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22Who on earth are these people?
0:07:22 > 0:07:25More importantly, what do they do all day?
0:07:26 > 0:07:29I run, mostly. You can see how big this building is.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32'Catherine Bearder is a Liberal Democrat MEP
0:07:32 > 0:07:36'and also looks after what is said to be an art collection.'
0:07:36 > 0:07:39And you've got something to do with all of this, haven't you?
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Well, this is a temporary exhibition.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43We were a bit worried when we put this up -
0:07:43 > 0:07:46cos it's not far away from the cafe - that some of them might come
0:07:46 > 0:07:50and put a cup of coffee on there, but so far, so good.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52Catherine, what would make a perfectly sensible person
0:07:52 > 0:07:54become an MEP?
0:07:54 > 0:07:58I have been for years campaigning on environmental issues, on...
0:07:58 > 0:08:01Well, why don't you go and do it somewhere useful
0:08:01 > 0:08:03- like the British Parliament? - Well, no, because this...
0:08:03 > 0:08:05No, because the issues that I care about -
0:08:05 > 0:08:08environment and human trafficking, can only be done internationally.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11So you're going to have to sit down and work with other countries
0:08:11 > 0:08:14and that is the perfect place to do it here.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16We can affect legislation in 28 countries.
0:08:16 > 0:08:21But let's be realistic, this is not a parliament as you and I,
0:08:21 > 0:08:24and most British people understand a parliament, ie - sovereign.
0:08:24 > 0:08:25It's not, is it?
0:08:25 > 0:08:28It's not a government, no, but it is a parliament,
0:08:28 > 0:08:31where we sit and we make legislation.
0:08:31 > 0:08:32Where you sit and talk.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36No, no, we amend legislation and we initiate.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39The Commission is like the civil service.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42The Council is where our ministers all sit.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44And if we can't agree on legislation,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47we have these wonderfully named things called trialogues,
0:08:47 > 0:08:51where three of us - three parties - the Council, the Commission
0:08:51 > 0:08:53and the Parliament, all sit together and we thrash it out
0:08:53 > 0:08:57and the MEPs are absolutely essential to that process.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59We represent the citizens.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02In the Council, they represent the governments.
0:09:04 > 0:09:08Well, that makes perfect sense - to those who work here.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11Personally, I haven't had a decent trialogue in years.
0:09:20 > 0:09:21But enough of that.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24Here are the results of my homework on how it all works,
0:09:24 > 0:09:27boiled down to a single example.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31It's an issue that nearly split Europe -
0:09:31 > 0:09:32chocolate.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36It started with the European Commission,
0:09:36 > 0:09:40which decided that we needed a better definition of chocolate.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44It seems that what we had been calling chocolate all these years
0:09:44 > 0:09:46wasn't really chocolate at all.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Oh, and UK milk chocolate was too milky.
0:09:52 > 0:09:57The Commission's proposal went to Parliament and to the Council.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01They had some amendments to suggest
0:10:01 > 0:10:03and after those went back and forth,
0:10:03 > 0:10:07both Parliament and the Council agreed the Chocolate Bill
0:10:07 > 0:10:10and a new directive was issued.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12That took four years.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17Now, pay attention at the back.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21Directives are one of two types of EU law.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25A directive means that something HAS to be done.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29The details are left to national governments.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33A few years later, the EU changed its mind on chocolate,
0:10:33 > 0:10:36and this time, they issued a different type of law -
0:10:36 > 0:10:37a regulation.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41Pencils at the ready.
0:10:41 > 0:10:47Regulations, also agreed by the EU Commission, Council and Parliament,
0:10:47 > 0:10:50but they become law automatically.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54They appear as if by magic on the statute books of member states
0:10:54 > 0:10:58without the elected representatives having to do anything.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02So that's what the Parliament here does.
0:11:02 > 0:11:08It amends and agrees legislation that applies across the EU.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11We've got 73 MEPs here,
0:11:11 > 0:11:14that's getting on for one for every million of us.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16No wonder it can seem remote.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21Jill Evans of Plaid Cymru represents an entire country.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Who are you accountable to?
0:11:24 > 0:11:27Well, I'm accountable to the people of Wales, because they elect...
0:11:27 > 0:11:30- What, all of them? - They elect me every five years.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33But I think what is different in the European Parliament,
0:11:33 > 0:11:38is because there is no government and opposition parties as such,
0:11:38 > 0:11:40then every MEP is equal.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45On average, only one in three of us
0:11:45 > 0:11:48can be bothered to vote for the EU Parliament.
0:11:48 > 0:11:53Much of the rest of Europe shares that, er, enthusiasm.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55Most people don't bother to vote for you
0:11:55 > 0:11:58because they don't think this Parliament is important.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02Now, of course, there is no Parliament that passes laws
0:12:02 > 0:12:04with which everyone is happy,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07but we have passed laws here that protect the environment,
0:12:07 > 0:12:11that protect working people, that protect young people.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13There's been so much achieved by the EU.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18So perhaps it's a bit much for us to moan about the place
0:12:18 > 0:12:21if we don't even make time to vote for it.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25Anyway, you might struggle to recognise your MEP
0:12:25 > 0:12:29but most, I hope, will recognise this chap.
0:12:29 > 0:12:33The podium for those awkward so-called family photographs
0:12:33 > 0:12:36is in yet another EU building,
0:12:36 > 0:12:40the next stop on our magical mystery tour of Brussels.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43It's where our Government ministers get together
0:12:43 > 0:12:46with their opposite numbers from the other member states.
0:12:48 > 0:12:50The one place everyone's told me
0:12:50 > 0:12:54that national interests are specifically catered for
0:12:54 > 0:12:58is in the Council in Brussels, where ministers
0:12:58 > 0:13:02and heads of government meet to reach decisions and to approve laws.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06So Britain's voice, they say, is heard in Brussels,
0:13:06 > 0:13:08but that is not of course the same
0:13:08 > 0:13:09as getting its own way.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14So the UK is represented in the European Parliament
0:13:14 > 0:13:17and by Government ministers in Council,
0:13:17 > 0:13:20but so is every other country,
0:13:20 > 0:13:22so what's left of British sovereignty?
0:13:23 > 0:13:25It rather depends who you ask.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32Dan Hannan is a Conservative MEP who thinks that the principle of
0:13:32 > 0:13:37national sovereignty far outweighs the benefits of sharing it.
0:13:37 > 0:13:42I sometimes wonder, listening to guys like you, whether you
0:13:42 > 0:13:46aren't just seeing things as far, far worse than they really are.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49After all, you know, nine out of ten times
0:13:49 > 0:13:52when it comes to some contentious matter in the EU
0:13:52 > 0:13:53we're on the winning side.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56Well, we're on the losing side more than twice as much
0:13:56 > 0:13:58as the next-most-defeated country out of the 28,
0:13:58 > 0:14:01so we are more often outvoted than anybody else,
0:14:01 > 0:14:03but actually, look, I'm a great optimist.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06The reason that I think we should leave is because we're
0:14:06 > 0:14:09a great country, we're the fifth-largest economy in the world.
0:14:09 > 0:14:10How much bigger do we have to be
0:14:10 > 0:14:13before we can flourish living under our own laws?
0:14:13 > 0:14:16Specifically on the question of sovereignty,
0:14:16 > 0:14:19how would life change for people in Britain?
0:14:19 > 0:14:21Sovereignty means that we get to hire and fire
0:14:21 > 0:14:23the people who pass our laws.
0:14:23 > 0:14:24And at the moment we don't.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27I mean, supreme power is held by Brussels
0:14:27 > 0:14:30and is exercised by people that nobody votes for.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33- So we would be able to make.... - That's simply not true, is it?
0:14:33 > 0:14:35I mean, you get a European Council meeting,
0:14:35 > 0:14:37there are British ministers there,
0:14:37 > 0:14:41and if something they judge to be inimical to the British interest is on the table
0:14:41 > 0:14:42they can vote against it.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45They can vote against it, and they might win or they might lose,
0:14:45 > 0:14:48but it's only on the basis of a Commission proposal
0:14:48 > 0:14:50that they're allowed to deliberate at all.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53Ah, the Commission.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Stop fidgeting, we're getting there.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00The European Commission is the third of those EU bodies.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03In the demonology of Euroscepticism,
0:15:03 > 0:15:06that building is the seat of all evil.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10For them, what is wrong with Brussels, or Europe generally,
0:15:10 > 0:15:13is the way that decisions are taken inside that building,
0:15:13 > 0:15:17decisions which affect all of our lives and yet which are made
0:15:17 > 0:15:20by people who are unelected, hardly accountable,
0:15:20 > 0:15:23remote...and foreign.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26'Environment, working conditions...'
0:15:26 > 0:15:29A former public-relations man, Jonathan Hill,
0:15:29 > 0:15:34now Baron Hill of Oareford, is the current British Commissioner.
0:15:35 > 0:15:40'You have to have a system here that can deliver a consensus,
0:15:40 > 0:15:42'and a consensus that will stick.'
0:15:43 > 0:15:49The European Commission has 28 members, one for each member state.
0:15:49 > 0:15:54In most cases it's the only body that can propose EU laws.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57MUSIC: Waterloo by ABBA
0:15:57 > 0:16:00These commissioners haven't been elected to the job,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03instead they're appointed by their national government.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08From their number, one is chosen to be President.
0:16:08 > 0:16:12Right now it's the former Prime Minister of the Duchy of Luxembourg,
0:16:12 > 0:16:16total population smaller than that of Leeds - Jean-Claude Juncker.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22It's a bit like the Eurovision Song Contest.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26Other countries send their top-drawer acts.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30The current Commission includes four former prime ministers
0:16:30 > 0:16:33and four former deputy prime ministers. And us?
0:16:33 > 0:16:37We've sent luminaries like Peter Mandelson, Chris Patten
0:16:37 > 0:16:40and, er, Neil Kinnock.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44Fun meeting? JONATHAN HILL CHUCKLES
0:16:44 > 0:16:45Of course. Always.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48What's it like to belong to an organisation
0:16:48 > 0:16:51that's so reviled by so much of Britain? HILL CHUCKLES
0:16:51 > 0:16:54Well, I... Do you mean being a member of the British Cabinet?
0:16:54 > 0:16:55No, I mean...
0:16:55 > 0:16:59- No, I mean being a member of the European Commission.- Well...
0:16:59 > 0:17:01But it is run by foreigners. HILL CHUCKLES
0:17:01 > 0:17:04By definition it's run by foreigners.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08The big difference here is that in our system in Britain
0:17:08 > 0:17:13it is parties and governments that make decisions, propose laws.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17In this case the only people who can propose laws are you.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19And you're not elected.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22That is how the system works, correct.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24Have you ever been elected to anything?
0:17:24 > 0:17:27Er, no, I have not been a lifelong politician.
0:17:27 > 0:17:28- Not even a parish council? - Absolutely not.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31I've not been, er, a lifelong politician,
0:17:31 > 0:17:35which you can argue has some, er, disadvantages,
0:17:35 > 0:17:37you can argue also it has some advantages.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40You are in the end a placeman, aren't you?
0:17:40 > 0:17:41From the point of view that...yes.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45- That's how the system works.- You are David Cameron's creature here.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Well, if you want to, erm, describe me in that way, I...
0:17:48 > 0:17:51The... I've already explained how it works.
0:17:51 > 0:17:55You're able to take a view but you're then held to account
0:17:55 > 0:17:59by the member states, by the European Parliament
0:17:59 > 0:18:03and by going round and working with parliaments across Europe.
0:18:03 > 0:18:08Many people feel that they have no control over this institution,
0:18:08 > 0:18:12which is just obliging an elected government
0:18:12 > 0:18:16to pass various regulations telling us how we should lead our lives.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18Do you understand that anxiety?
0:18:18 > 0:18:23I completely understand, erm, that there is that feeling. I think...
0:18:23 > 0:18:26- It's true, it's not just a feeling. - No, I think some of it's...
0:18:26 > 0:18:29There are some elements where actually it isn't true
0:18:29 > 0:18:35and that the understanding of how the system works, er, is slightly missing.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40If you think about some of the things that we all think of as being emblematic of sovereignty -
0:18:40 > 0:18:44taxation, foreign policy... defence policy -
0:18:44 > 0:18:49er, those are not areas where the British Government can be dictated to.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51I think of areas where I used to work -
0:18:51 > 0:18:54education, our health service that people care about -
0:18:54 > 0:18:59again, these aren't areas where the country is being steam-rollered.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03'Well, I suppose all laws had to start somewhere.'
0:19:05 > 0:19:08But what feels odd to us in the UK
0:19:08 > 0:19:11is that here they begin with those we haven't elected.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16But importantly for the sovereignty question
0:19:16 > 0:19:20they're passed by people we HAVE elected,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22though they have to travel to do it.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25Once a month we go to Strasbourg,
0:19:25 > 0:19:28er, and we have a trunk that goes with us.
0:19:28 > 0:19:29What, the whole European Parliament?
0:19:29 > 0:19:33The Parliament, the committees, Parliament staff.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36- Er, I take one of my members of staff with me.- Why?- Oh, it's crazy.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38It's crazy. It's in the treaties.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42The EU treaties mean that
0:19:42 > 0:19:46although the European Parliament is based in Brussels in Belgium
0:19:46 > 0:19:52it has to vote 200 miles away in Strasbourg, France.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55Parliament itself has voted on numerous occasions
0:19:55 > 0:19:57to do away with going to Strasbourg
0:19:57 > 0:20:00but it's in the treaties, so it needs a treaty change,
0:20:00 > 0:20:03and we all know what treaty change means these days.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07Another referendum. So... And we don't want those!
0:20:09 > 0:20:135,000 boxes, a convoy of lorries,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16politicians, staff, the kitchen sink.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20Everyone agrees it's stupid but no-one can do a damn thing about it.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25MEPs travel from their constituencies
0:20:25 > 0:20:30while the civil servants slum it on a specially chartered train
0:20:30 > 0:20:32dubbed the Eurocrat Express.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35So every month Members of the European Parliament,
0:20:35 > 0:20:39their paperwork and about 3,000 civil servants
0:20:39 > 0:20:43make a journey of almost four hours to Strasbourg.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46The total cost of maintaining two bases
0:20:46 > 0:20:51is estimated at well over £100 million a year.
0:20:51 > 0:20:55Lucky old Strasbourg, where the Parliament votes.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59It may look like a modern-day Colosseum
0:20:59 > 0:21:02but the encounters here aren't exactly gladiatorial.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12Today's hot ticket is the French Prime Minister
0:21:12 > 0:21:16meeting the President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21This is either where you see the EU members collaborating
0:21:21 > 0:21:25to harness immense communal power...
0:21:27 > 0:21:30..or traditional national sovereignty
0:21:30 > 0:21:32disappearing before your very eyes.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36This is what European Union legislation looks like.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39MAN SPEAKS SPANISH
0:21:43 > 0:21:47By the time it reaches this point, a planned law has gone through both
0:21:47 > 0:21:52Council and Parliamentary committees in Brussels, not to mention
0:21:52 > 0:21:57our MPs back at Westminster looking at drafts in a special committee.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00I do, though, notice something rather curious down on the floor.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02So where is the British voice in all of this?
0:22:02 > 0:22:05The answer is, there isn't one,
0:22:05 > 0:22:07or at least not only one,
0:22:07 > 0:22:11because MPs don't sit according to nationality,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14they sit according to political attitude.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18There are nine blocs within the European Parliament
0:22:18 > 0:22:23and UK Members of the European Parliament sit in eight of them.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27So although we've voted for our MEPs to represent us
0:22:27 > 0:22:30they're not doing it as the UK.
0:22:30 > 0:22:36They're here as liberals, conservatives, socialists, whatever.
0:22:37 > 0:22:42Richard Corbett is a veteran Labour MEP who really gets this place.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48He's been in Brussels for two decades, including four years
0:22:48 > 0:22:53as an adviser to the former Belgian Prime Minister Herman Van Rompuy.
0:22:54 > 0:22:55As you may recall,
0:22:55 > 0:23:00Mr Van Rompuy was up against stiff competition for the plum job
0:23:00 > 0:23:03of being very first President of the Council.
0:23:03 > 0:23:04We, the British Government,
0:23:04 > 0:23:08believe that Tony Blair would be an excellent candidate
0:23:08 > 0:23:11and an excellent person to hold the job of President of the Council.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15But Tony Blair was too strong meat for the EU
0:23:15 > 0:23:18and Van Rompuy got the job instead.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22Some typically vociferous MEPs weren't impressed.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26- And I don't want to be rude...but... - BARRACKING FROM FLOOR
0:23:26 > 0:23:31..but, you know, really, you have the charisma of a damp rag
0:23:31 > 0:23:33and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36- And the question that I want to ask... - BARRACKING
0:23:36 > 0:23:38The question that I want to ask,
0:23:38 > 0:23:41that we're all going to ask, is who are you?
0:23:41 > 0:23:45I have no doubt that it's your intention to be the quiet assassin
0:23:45 > 0:23:48of European democracy and of the European nation states.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50You appear to have...
0:23:50 > 0:23:54That little episode didn't much help the cause of European integration.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56Do you understand why
0:23:56 > 0:24:00so many British people cordially dislike the European Union?
0:24:01 > 0:24:04Yes, well, if you've been told by so much of the media
0:24:04 > 0:24:06that it is a bit like the bubonic plague...
0:24:06 > 0:24:10- Come on, let's not blame the media. - Well, in part.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14You get stories trying to make the EU look silly or sinister.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16Silly - straight bananas and so on,
0:24:16 > 0:24:18or sinister - it's a threat to our democracy.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21But it wasn't made up. The straight banana story was true.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23They may have repealed the legislation...
0:24:23 > 0:24:26No, there was no legislation saying bananas should be straight.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28What about cucumbers? Was that made up too?
0:24:28 > 0:24:32What they did was take wholesalers' arrangements
0:24:32 > 0:24:36on classifying things to be low quality, medium quality,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39high quality, which included a bit about curvature of bananas,
0:24:39 > 0:24:41rules which the Union recognised,
0:24:41 > 0:24:44but there's no legislation saying bananas have to be straight.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47Well, why was the rule repealed, then?
0:24:47 > 0:24:50Because even that was found to be not necessary
0:24:50 > 0:24:53and if you don't need legislation, you should repeal it.
0:24:53 > 0:24:58The specific question of how you can change those people who make
0:24:58 > 0:25:00the laws, that tell you what to do,
0:25:00 > 0:25:04that sovereignty has been ceded elsewhere.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06No, it has been shared.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09It makes sense to have common rules for the common market
0:25:09 > 0:25:12on consumer protection with goods flowing back and forth,
0:25:12 > 0:25:15on environmental standards and competition law and so on.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17We make rules jointly.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23There wasn't a word about bananas
0:25:23 > 0:25:27when we first applied to join the EEC.
0:25:27 > 0:25:31But in the years since, more and more laws made here
0:25:31 > 0:25:34have come to Britain. How many?
0:25:34 > 0:25:36It would be nice to know.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38This chap thinks he knows.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41Look, you'll hear from Nigel Farage, oh, 75% of our laws.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43No, actually, the House of Commons has shown that
0:25:43 > 0:25:47roughly 7% of all new laws are related to the European Union.
0:25:47 > 0:25:50- Oh, dear, oh, dear. - And so does this one.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52We had one of your friends from Brussels,
0:25:52 > 0:25:54Commissioner Viviane Reding, in London the other week saying
0:25:54 > 0:25:57we must all sign up to the United States of Europe
0:25:57 > 0:25:59and we must recognise the importance of Brussels
0:25:59 > 0:26:01because after all it makes 70% of our laws.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05Even Gordon Brown said over half our laws are made in Brussels.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08So, what is the number really?
0:26:08 > 0:26:10It depends what you count.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14Is it just directives in which the European Union tells
0:26:14 > 0:26:17Parliament what it needs to do
0:26:17 > 0:26:20or do you include regulations?
0:26:20 > 0:26:21Is it one or both?
0:26:24 > 0:26:26The House of Commons Library tried to tot up
0:26:26 > 0:26:28the numbers in various combinations,
0:26:28 > 0:26:35coming up with an estimate between 15% and 55%.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38But when they looked at figures for 2010 to 2013,
0:26:38 > 0:26:41the most recent available at the time,
0:26:41 > 0:26:45they calculated a whopping 59%.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49There is a catch, inevitably.
0:26:49 > 0:26:53We get all the regulations but some of them, like the production
0:26:53 > 0:26:57of olive oil or growing tobacco, clearly don't apply to us,
0:26:57 > 0:27:02so the figure of 59% may be a gross exaggeration.
0:27:02 > 0:27:06All researchers conclude is that it is impossible to get
0:27:06 > 0:27:10an accurate measurement, which for some people tells you all
0:27:10 > 0:27:13you need to know about our relationship with the EU.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17I vote against any legislation which transfers power from our
0:27:17 > 0:27:21great country into the hands of the Eurocrats,
0:27:21 > 0:27:24into the hands of Brussels, and I think that is the most
0:27:24 > 0:27:27valuable thing that any British MEP can do.
0:27:27 > 0:27:32The largest group of UK MEPs in Brussels belongs to a party
0:27:32 > 0:27:36that wants us out - Ukip. Paul Nuttall is one of them.
0:27:36 > 0:27:41Your party has the most appalling record even for turning up.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44Well, in terms of turning up for committees and whatnot,
0:27:44 > 0:27:47in the last Parliament I admit our record was poor.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50But let's not forget, we came out here with a mandate to spend most
0:27:50 > 0:27:54- of our time in the UK campaigning to leave the European Union.- No...
0:27:54 > 0:27:57Hold on, Jeremy, in this Parliament, things are different.
0:27:57 > 0:27:59And why do they want us out?
0:27:59 > 0:28:02They are obsessed with traditional sovereignty.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04If you think of the British system,
0:28:04 > 0:28:07you have the members of the House of Commons who propose
0:28:07 > 0:28:10the legislation, it then goes up to an unelected chamber,
0:28:10 > 0:28:14the House of Lords, to be amended and pushed through.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17Over here, it's completely the opposite position.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19It's the unelected who propose the legislation
0:28:19 > 0:28:22and it's handed down to us simply to amend.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24So you feel it's undemocratic.
0:28:24 > 0:28:26I think it's un-British and undemocratic, yeah.
0:28:26 > 0:28:30# Coucou, les rosiers fleurissent
0:28:30 > 0:28:33# Coucou, les rameaux verdissent
0:28:33 > 0:28:36# Coucou, voici le printemps... #
0:28:36 > 0:28:37It is different...
0:28:37 > 0:28:41On the other side, the vast majority of MEPs who think that
0:28:41 > 0:28:46working together is just obviously more important than our
0:28:46 > 0:28:48little-islander sense of Britishness.
0:28:49 > 0:28:54So, the question was that the British are frustrated by these laws
0:28:54 > 0:28:56coming from the European Union.
0:28:56 > 0:29:00But why don't you look at it in another way?
0:29:00 > 0:29:03That you have actually the power to
0:29:03 > 0:29:06influence the laws for 507 million people.
0:29:06 > 0:29:12If you go, then you can't. You can't influence those processes any more.
0:29:12 > 0:29:17So it is more that you have more power over European processes
0:29:17 > 0:29:20while you are in. When you're out, then OK.
0:29:21 > 0:29:25So we should just stop moaning and think of the benefits.
0:29:25 > 0:29:26This happens in all the families.
0:29:26 > 0:29:31You always have somebody who is always moaning, always being,
0:29:31 > 0:29:35you know, being nit-picking and you have to give a lesson.
0:29:35 > 0:29:39And the lesson is, "OK, do you want to be part of this family?
0:29:39 > 0:29:42"You have your role, we have a common obligation,
0:29:42 > 0:29:45"several duties together, and this is the way we work.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48"But we really want you to be in the family
0:29:48 > 0:29:52"because what will you be doing outside the family?"
0:29:52 > 0:29:54'Thanks, Mum!
0:29:54 > 0:29:57'So, does Europe want to put us on the naughty step?'
0:29:57 > 0:29:59# Cadilla
0:30:00 > 0:30:03# Cadilla
0:30:03 > 0:30:07# Coucou, bonjour mon amour... #
0:30:07 > 0:30:10The idea that Britain does things differently to the rest
0:30:10 > 0:30:15of the European Union is one that comes up time and again.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18But we have to accept that there are some people who see
0:30:18 > 0:30:21doing things differently as just being a bloody nuisance.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25Dominique Riquet is a veteran French MEP.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30Do you think that Britain is a serious European nation?
0:30:30 > 0:30:32IN FRENCH:
0:30:47 > 0:30:50It's a different idea of Europe, that's all.
0:31:06 > 0:31:11And if Britain decides to leave the European Union, that's it.
0:31:11 > 0:31:12C'est fini.
0:31:27 > 0:31:31For the most fervent Europhiles, the dream is a single country
0:31:31 > 0:31:34under a single government with a single flag.
0:31:37 > 0:31:41The UK has never been keen on that and in his recent negotiations,
0:31:41 > 0:31:45David Cameron won a formal acknowledgement that...
0:31:45 > 0:31:48Britain will be permanently out of ever-closer union,
0:31:48 > 0:31:50never part of a European superstate.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59But it's not just dreamy old men who want to see
0:31:59 > 0:32:01a more integrated Europe.
0:32:01 > 0:32:02Down the grapevine,
0:32:02 > 0:32:06the young European federalists are rather more...energised.
0:32:09 > 0:32:12We are much stronger on the world scene
0:32:12 > 0:32:17by being one strong united power
0:32:17 > 0:32:20than being 28 single little countries.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22Will it happen in your lifetime, do you think?
0:32:22 > 0:32:23I really hope it will.
0:32:23 > 0:32:28I mean, I really hope it will happen in ten years, even sooner,
0:32:28 > 0:32:32because we realise, and we have to realise, it's the way to go for us.
0:32:32 > 0:32:37Because staying like this now, with a superpower like Russia, China,
0:32:37 > 0:32:40like the US, like all the superpowers that are growing,
0:32:40 > 0:32:42we have no chance.
0:32:42 > 0:32:45We are Europe and we are together and we need to stay together.
0:32:48 > 0:32:52You almost sound as if you're scared we won't stay together.
0:32:52 > 0:32:53No, I'm not scared about it
0:32:53 > 0:32:56because I'm sure we will stay together.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59I'm just scared about what you may decide.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02Are you really concerned about it?
0:33:02 > 0:33:05I am a bit because there are forces in the UK
0:33:05 > 0:33:10that are advocating for an outcome that I do not agree with.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13Who is this clown?!
0:33:13 > 0:33:15Captain Europe, at your service.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17The obvious thing would be to say "dunna-dunna-Paxman",
0:33:17 > 0:33:19or something like that.
0:33:20 > 0:33:23- Very nice to meet you. - Well, it's a very nice outfit.
0:33:23 > 0:33:24Well, thank you.
0:33:25 > 0:33:28No, actually, it's a ridiculous outfit.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31But it gets people talking.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34Talking about what a ridiculous outfit it is!
0:33:34 > 0:33:36He is actually our hero.
0:33:38 > 0:33:42So, is a unified Europe what lies at the end of the road
0:33:42 > 0:33:44for EU members who don't get out now?
0:33:48 > 0:33:52It's certainly what Mrs Thatcher thought in 1988 when she gave
0:33:52 > 0:33:55a speech in Bruges that has become
0:33:55 > 0:33:58the rallying cry of UK Euro-sceptics.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state
0:34:01 > 0:34:06in Britain only to see them reimposed at a European level with
0:34:06 > 0:34:10a European superstate exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
0:34:12 > 0:34:17From regulating cucumbers to a European superstate -
0:34:17 > 0:34:19that is some slippery slope.
0:34:20 > 0:34:22But could it really happen?
0:34:33 > 0:34:36Well, maybe yes, maybe no.
0:34:36 > 0:34:40There's another catchy bit of Euro-jargon called "subsidiarity".
0:34:41 > 0:34:44It's means that decisions should be taken as close
0:34:44 > 0:34:46to grassroots as possible.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51Brussels steps in for the bits where working together
0:34:51 > 0:34:52is better for everyone.
0:34:55 > 0:34:56Some are pretty sceptical.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02EU was a peace project, that was the intention of it,
0:35:02 > 0:35:06and then it turned out into something completely different.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09Peter Lundgren is a Sweden Democrat.
0:35:09 > 0:35:13Here, his party shares a platform with Ukip.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16We didn't vote for the kind of EU we see today.
0:35:16 > 0:35:20We didn't vote for EU taking our sovereignty from us.
0:35:20 > 0:35:25We didn't vote for EU to be the bosses of our countries.
0:35:25 > 0:35:30These allies hope Britain would be followed through the exit by others.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33That will pretty much be like the Berlin Wall.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36It will have a crack in the wall and it will start to fall down
0:35:36 > 0:35:40and we are really hoping and supporting England in the no-side.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51# We're all going on a summer holiday... #
0:35:51 > 0:35:54But how to British voters think?
0:35:54 > 0:35:56The European Parliament isn't many people's
0:35:56 > 0:35:59idea of the holiday of a lifetime.
0:35:59 > 0:36:02But two busloads of English constituents
0:36:02 > 0:36:05have come on a rather unusual mini-break.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07So this is your idea of fun?
0:36:08 > 0:36:11- No.- I'm here for work, why are you here?
0:36:11 > 0:36:14To find out more and there are other things...
0:36:14 > 0:36:17- You're very conscientious, then, aren't you?- Absolutely, yes.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19What else is involved in this trip?
0:36:19 > 0:36:22We visited Champagne area yesterday and we're going to...
0:36:22 > 0:36:24- So it's not all bad. - It's not all bad.
0:36:24 > 0:36:28Will it help them make their minds up before the referendum next month?
0:36:28 > 0:36:31Or are their minds pretty well made up already?
0:36:31 > 0:36:34I've had an open mind for years
0:36:34 > 0:36:39but having listened, I think the argument is for out.
0:36:39 > 0:36:42One argument I've got that no-one has ever been able to answer for me
0:36:42 > 0:36:46is why has every party political leader and Prime Minister
0:36:46 > 0:36:48been in favour of staying in?
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Surely they of all people know the balance
0:36:51 > 0:36:55between the freedoms we give away and the powers we gain.
0:36:55 > 0:36:57This eventually will be
0:36:57 > 0:37:00the parliament for the United States of Europe.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02We want to be British.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04So we leave these lucky folk
0:37:04 > 0:37:08to their immersion in the glories of the European Union.
0:37:08 > 0:37:12For us, it's time to depart the land of champagne and foie gras
0:37:12 > 0:37:17and head back to the nation that gave the world the Eccles cake,
0:37:17 > 0:37:20because in the end, we will decide
0:37:20 > 0:37:23not by what we can do for the EU
0:37:23 > 0:37:26but by what the EU has done for us.
0:37:29 > 0:37:33Of course, being in the EU, being in and proud,
0:37:33 > 0:37:34brings many benefits.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36But no benefits come for free.
0:37:39 > 0:37:41So what are we to make of this trade-off?
0:37:41 > 0:37:46Old-school sovereignty for brave new world collaboration.
0:37:49 > 0:37:51Hello, would you like a leaflet on the European Union?
0:37:51 > 0:37:53Why we ought to leave?
0:37:53 > 0:37:55There are 35 days till the referendum.
0:37:55 > 0:38:00Businessman John Mills wants us to vote Leave.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03But this isn't the first time our membership of Europe has been
0:38:03 > 0:38:06put directly to the British public.
0:38:06 > 0:38:11I'm a certain age and I don't remember when we joined Europe
0:38:11 > 0:38:16that they were going to tell us that they could overrule our parliament.
0:38:16 > 0:38:17I don't agree with that.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22Ted Heath's government took us into what was then
0:38:22 > 0:38:27the European Economic Community on New Year's Day 1973.
0:38:27 > 0:38:32# For auld lang syne... #
0:38:32 > 0:38:34But when Labour took power soon after,
0:38:34 > 0:38:38they called a referendum on whether we should stay or go.
0:38:38 > 0:38:43And the national agent of the 1975 No campaign,
0:38:43 > 0:38:45one...John Mills.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48I think we were sold the membership of the Common Market,
0:38:48 > 0:38:52as it was then, very much on economic terms
0:38:52 > 0:38:56as a trading relationship and not as one that was going to lead to a kind
0:38:56 > 0:38:58of United States of Europe,
0:38:58 > 0:38:59which I think is where we're heading to.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02People were effectively lied to.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04I think one of the really salient points
0:39:04 > 0:39:06about the referendum last time round
0:39:06 > 0:39:08was that the British public was misled -
0:39:08 > 0:39:10not just by Harold Wilson, but by Edward Heath
0:39:10 > 0:39:12and by a lot of other politicians
0:39:12 > 0:39:14who knew perfectly well the direction of travel
0:39:14 > 0:39:17and weren't prepared to tell everybody about them.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20His job was getting out the vote against the other side,
0:39:20 > 0:39:23including the newly elected Conservative leader
0:39:23 > 0:39:24Margaret Thatcher...
0:39:24 > 0:39:27In a rather lovely jumper.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30It's very fitting that you should keep an all-night vigil
0:39:30 > 0:39:33under the statue of Sir Winston Churchill,
0:39:33 > 0:39:36the first person to have the great vision
0:39:36 > 0:39:40of working together for peace in Europe.
0:39:43 > 0:39:47I never managed to lay my hands on this glorious garment,
0:39:47 > 0:39:50but in 1975, like Margaret Thatcher,
0:39:50 > 0:39:54I voted to stay in the European Community.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57It seemed forward-looking, it seemed almost visionary.
0:39:57 > 0:40:01Was national sovereignty an issue? Not in the slightest.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04When Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister,
0:40:04 > 0:40:08she set her sights on what was dubbed "Maggie's money" -
0:40:08 > 0:40:12a rebate on Britain's contribution to the EU budget.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17Then Jacques Delors took power in Europe
0:40:17 > 0:40:19as President of the European Commission.
0:40:19 > 0:40:21He unveiled his plans
0:40:21 > 0:40:24for a single market, a single currency
0:40:24 > 0:40:26and a federalist direction for Europe.
0:40:27 > 0:40:31To some in Britain, he seemed to be trying to finish the work
0:40:31 > 0:40:35of that other Gallic short-arse, Napoleon.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38- ALL:- Up yours, Delors!
0:40:38 > 0:40:42# The liquidator
0:40:42 > 0:40:46# Will soon be coming around
0:40:46 > 0:40:49# You won't feel safer... #
0:40:49 > 0:40:54And one person in particular was distinctly unimpressed.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56The President of the Commission, Mr Delors,
0:40:56 > 0:40:58said at press conference the other day
0:40:58 > 0:41:01that he wanted the European Parliament to
0:41:01 > 0:41:04be the democratic body of the Community,
0:41:04 > 0:41:06he wanted the Commission to be the Executive
0:41:06 > 0:41:09and he wanted the Council of Ministers to be the senate.
0:41:09 > 0:41:13No, no, no.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16Thatcher's end swiftly followed.
0:41:16 > 0:41:17Her successor, John Major,
0:41:17 > 0:41:21starred in the final act of this tragicomic drama,
0:41:21 > 0:41:23the Maastricht Treaty.
0:41:23 > 0:41:26It was key to the creation of the single market
0:41:26 > 0:41:28and the common currency, the euro.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32Its official title was the Treaty on European Union.
0:41:32 > 0:41:35Top reporters were dispatched from across the continent.
0:41:35 > 0:41:37This was 24 years ago, remember.
0:41:38 > 0:41:40Good evening from Maastricht.
0:41:40 > 0:41:43There seems every prospect that within a very short time,
0:41:43 > 0:41:45probably a couple of hours or so,
0:41:45 > 0:41:48a treaty on European union will be agreed.
0:41:51 > 0:41:55Bill Cash was the ringleader of the so-called "Maastricht rebels",
0:41:55 > 0:41:59John Major's bastards, who tried to stop the UK signing up.
0:41:59 > 0:42:03It was the first major step towards political union
0:42:03 > 0:42:05so it had to be resisted.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11What was it about Maastricht that made it such a big deal for you?
0:42:11 > 0:42:16All the European stuff before that, from 1972,
0:42:16 > 0:42:20was about trading and that sort of thing.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23European government was created by Maastricht,
0:42:23 > 0:42:25that's what it was all about,
0:42:25 > 0:42:28because it actually affected who governs and how.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31But as long as we're in it, we are not governing ourselves.
0:42:31 > 0:42:35No, and that's because you obey all the obligations
0:42:35 > 0:42:37which come from the European Union
0:42:37 > 0:42:41and you obey all the judgments of the European Court of Justice.
0:42:43 > 0:42:46So do try to keep up, because here we go again...
0:42:46 > 0:42:49The Court of Justice of the European Union
0:42:49 > 0:42:51is the fourth institution.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54It's the Union's supreme legal arbiter,
0:42:54 > 0:42:59where judges from each member state make sure we all toe the same line.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03The court prevails over any national court decision
0:43:03 > 0:43:06and it prevails over any national law within
0:43:06 > 0:43:10the areas in which the European Union is competent.
0:43:10 > 0:43:14'Sir Francis Jacobs was Advocate General at the European Court
0:43:14 > 0:43:15'for nearly 20 years.'
0:43:15 > 0:43:20In those areas in which the European Court has competence,
0:43:20 > 0:43:23it takes precedence over anything else?
0:43:23 > 0:43:24Yes, that is right.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27If you are going to have a European Union,
0:43:27 > 0:43:30it has to have a body of law.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32That is what is essential,
0:43:32 > 0:43:35particularly for the internal market to function at all.
0:43:35 > 0:43:40Even if the United Kingdom were to leave the European Union
0:43:40 > 0:43:43and wanted to retain access to the internal market,
0:43:43 > 0:43:47it would entail accepting the rules of the internal market
0:43:47 > 0:43:49but with no say in the making of those rules
0:43:49 > 0:43:51and with no say in the way in which
0:43:51 > 0:43:54the Court of Justice interprets them.
0:43:54 > 0:43:59Would you accept that the very existence of the European Court
0:43:59 > 0:44:02has necessarily meant that sovereignty in individual states
0:44:02 > 0:44:04has been reduced?
0:44:04 > 0:44:08That's right - this is not a thing unique to the European Union.
0:44:08 > 0:44:10The notion that the sovereignty of the state
0:44:10 > 0:44:12is limited by international law
0:44:12 > 0:44:15is something which is familiar now for 100 years.
0:44:17 > 0:44:21When you hear it put as unambiguously as that,
0:44:21 > 0:44:24that national sovereignty has been curtailed,
0:44:24 > 0:44:27it raises two immediate questions.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30One - what have we got in return?
0:44:30 > 0:44:35And two - is the whole traditional idea of sovereignty dead?
0:44:42 > 0:44:46It's a pretty distant worry in some parts of Europe -
0:44:46 > 0:44:48for example, to British expats living out
0:44:48 > 0:44:52the benefits of shared sovereignty in sunny Spain.
0:44:53 > 0:44:55Today, they're getting a wake-up call
0:44:55 > 0:44:58that's got nothing to do with the looming possibility
0:44:58 > 0:45:00of Britain leaving the EU.
0:45:02 > 0:45:05It's the Costa Blanca's annual fire festival.
0:45:05 > 0:45:10Local people celebrate by building giant street sculptures.
0:45:12 > 0:45:13But the British have brought
0:45:13 > 0:45:16their own, more sedate, traditions with them.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19It is fabulous for us here. I've had a great time.
0:45:19 > 0:45:21I thoroughly enjoy my lifestyle here.
0:45:21 > 0:45:23It's much, much better.
0:45:23 > 0:45:26The El Cid bowls club - that's Sid with a C -
0:45:26 > 0:45:29is just outside Javea, a seaside resort
0:45:29 > 0:45:33where around 50% of the population is foreign,
0:45:33 > 0:45:35and nearly half of those are British.
0:45:37 > 0:45:40- Does everyone have their own set of balls?- Yes, yes, we do.
0:45:40 > 0:45:42- Woods.- Woods?
0:45:42 > 0:45:45This is your bias side, which is where the bowl will turn.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48- Oh, I know all about the bias side! - It's the weighted side.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51'Their lifestyle here is made possible
0:45:51 > 0:45:54'by Britain's membership of the EU.'
0:45:54 > 0:45:56You guys have been beneficiaries, haven't you?
0:45:56 > 0:45:59You live here in a much better climate,
0:45:59 > 0:46:02you've got reciprocal health care, which many people say is better
0:46:02 > 0:46:04than they can get in the UK.
0:46:04 > 0:46:07It's laid-back. The cost of living is far better.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10I couldn't afford to go back and live in the UK
0:46:10 > 0:46:12and I think that's the bottom line.
0:46:12 > 0:46:14You're economic migrants, aren't you?
0:46:14 > 0:46:16- Sort of, yeah, for sure! - Yeah, yeah.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19'But there's always someone who wants to be difficult.'
0:46:19 > 0:46:21When it comes to a decision,
0:46:21 > 0:46:25it's made by a set of people that haven't been elected.
0:46:25 > 0:46:27This is really weird, isn't it?
0:46:27 > 0:46:32Here you are, living in a fellow member state of the European Union,
0:46:32 > 0:46:36saying you can't stand it because the way decisions are taken,
0:46:36 > 0:46:38people are unaccountable.
0:46:38 > 0:46:4180 new laws are passed every week.
0:46:41 > 0:46:4480 - and we have to suffer all them.
0:46:44 > 0:46:46How are you suffering?
0:46:46 > 0:46:50Because they...they change all the rules, the laws,
0:46:50 > 0:46:52and you've because the laws are changing, you've got to...
0:46:52 > 0:46:54You can't do nothing without the law.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56You're not even living in England.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58I know, but I do go back and have a look around.
0:46:58 > 0:47:02Jack's views may be unusual at El Cid
0:47:02 > 0:47:06but he's typical of his age group in the UK.
0:47:06 > 0:47:10Polls suggest dislike of the EU is strongest among older people.
0:47:12 > 0:47:14But it's the reverse among the young.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17So I was expecting positive noises
0:47:17 > 0:47:20when I met three British students studying here
0:47:20 > 0:47:23on the EU-funded Erasmus scheme.
0:47:23 > 0:47:25For them, the liberty to choose our rulers
0:47:25 > 0:47:27that old codgers bang on about
0:47:27 > 0:47:31doesn't mean much compared to other liberties.
0:47:31 > 0:47:33We may have laws that are imposed upon us,
0:47:33 > 0:47:35but we also have the freedom
0:47:35 > 0:47:38to move around within the EU much more freely.
0:47:38 > 0:47:40If we were outside of the EU,
0:47:40 > 0:47:43it would definitely limit our own personal sovereignties.
0:47:46 > 0:47:49When you hear people talking about sovereignty,
0:47:49 > 0:47:55the United Kingdom, having struggled for 1,000 years
0:47:55 > 0:47:57to assert its right to make its own laws
0:47:57 > 0:48:00and now being unable to change laws
0:48:00 > 0:48:02that are imposed by Europe...
0:48:02 > 0:48:08I hate that kind of view of feeling like I have certain rights
0:48:08 > 0:48:11because I'm British, or we've done so much
0:48:11 > 0:48:13to gain everything that we have.
0:48:13 > 0:48:17Monica, what do you think? Do you think this is a generational thing?
0:48:17 > 0:48:19I personally just don't feel
0:48:19 > 0:48:24as though our generation are quite nationalistic and patriotic.
0:48:24 > 0:48:28People tend to see themselves as not citizens of the UK,
0:48:28 > 0:48:32not citizens of the EU, but citizens of the world.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43This is generation EU.
0:48:43 > 0:48:47They were born post-Maastricht.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50For them, the presence and dominance of the European Union
0:48:50 > 0:48:54is simply a fact of life, and a good one at that.
0:49:03 > 0:49:08This is about the future, including those still too young to vote.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11The motion we have in front of us today is that this house believes
0:49:11 > 0:49:13that individual nation states cannot be sovereign countries
0:49:13 > 0:49:15within the European Union.
0:49:15 > 0:49:18These alarmingly articulate London sixth formers
0:49:18 > 0:49:21are having a formal debate.
0:49:21 > 0:49:24MEPs are largely unaccountable to the general public.
0:49:24 > 0:49:28The opacity and the bureaucracy of the EU
0:49:28 > 0:49:30at the very least stifles democratic processes,
0:49:30 > 0:49:32if not limiting them altogether.
0:49:32 > 0:49:35The real power is monopolised in the hands of the states
0:49:35 > 0:49:39with the most representatives, especially the French-German axis.
0:49:39 > 0:49:41The structure of the EU has changed massively.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44We don't believe that it's OK for a country to forfeit
0:49:44 > 0:49:46in the short term their national sovereignty,
0:49:46 > 0:49:50and for that national sovereignty to be further butchered over time.
0:49:50 > 0:49:52APPLAUSE
0:49:52 > 0:49:55I now call on the first speaker of the opposition to respond.
0:49:55 > 0:49:59They put points across better than some politicians I could mention.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01EU membership is simply an adjustment
0:50:01 > 0:50:03to the globalised world in which we live.
0:50:03 > 0:50:05It is a form of representative democracy
0:50:05 > 0:50:08which EU member states actively participate in.
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Though our sovereignty can't be absolute,
0:50:10 > 0:50:13it's also clear that whilst the EU does create legislation,
0:50:13 > 0:50:14they do so with us at the helm.
0:50:14 > 0:50:17And finally, by leaving, we risk our sovereignty
0:50:17 > 0:50:18both on a personal and national level.
0:50:18 > 0:50:20Thank you very much.
0:50:20 > 0:50:23APPLAUSE
0:50:23 > 0:50:25Well, that was exciting, wasn't it?
0:50:27 > 0:50:30And now those in favour of the opposition?
0:50:30 > 0:50:33And then a rather unexpected result.
0:50:33 > 0:50:35We are in favour of the motion.
0:50:35 > 0:50:38It's not where polls predict young sympathies lie,
0:50:38 > 0:50:41but in this debate, oratory has won the day.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46The final decision is in our hands,
0:50:46 > 0:50:51All the politicians can do is make the case to get out or stay in.
0:50:55 > 0:50:59When the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, signed up to leave,
0:50:59 > 0:51:04he put traditional sovereignty front and centre.
0:51:04 > 0:51:06Ultimately what sovereignty comes down to
0:51:06 > 0:51:10is the ability to go to any politician, "You're fired,"
0:51:10 > 0:51:12and we don't have that in the European Union.
0:51:12 > 0:51:16But that can happen with any one of the member governments of the EU.
0:51:16 > 0:51:19You can change the people but the laws won't change.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22Policies which are decided at the Brussels level
0:51:22 > 0:51:25determine what happens in this country.
0:51:25 > 0:51:28Just last week, there were two circulars that passed my desk.
0:51:28 > 0:51:31One of them was about the regulation of blowtorches.
0:51:31 > 0:51:35The European Union were deciding which blowtorches we could use
0:51:35 > 0:51:37when we were baking creme brulees.
0:51:37 > 0:51:38Oven gloves in future
0:51:38 > 0:51:41are going to be governed by European Union regulation.
0:51:41 > 0:51:45It interferes in everything from blowtorches and bananas
0:51:45 > 0:51:48to the billions of pounds that we spend on new schools and hospitals.
0:51:48 > 0:51:53The European Union has an influence and control in all of these areas.
0:51:53 > 0:51:57But all these arrangements, the initial decision to go in,
0:51:57 > 0:52:02Maastricht, the Single European Act that Mrs Thatcher signed,
0:52:02 > 0:52:06all these decisions were taken by Conservative Prime Ministers.
0:52:06 > 0:52:07Your party.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09Er, yes, and now is the time to apologise
0:52:09 > 0:52:12and to say I'm afraid we got it wrong.
0:52:12 > 0:52:17There are 73 British European Members of Parliament,
0:52:17 > 0:52:19there is a British person at the Commission,
0:52:19 > 0:52:23there is the Council of Ministers - there is a voice there.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26Yes, there is a voice, but it's continually outvoted,
0:52:26 > 0:52:28muffled, or overruled.
0:52:28 > 0:52:29So yes, we're at the table,
0:52:29 > 0:52:32but like children at the adults' dinner table,
0:52:32 > 0:52:35we're tolerated but ignored.
0:52:35 > 0:52:37You would rather leave the table,
0:52:37 > 0:52:40cease taking part in those discussions
0:52:40 > 0:52:42and stand outside and shout in the wind, would you?
0:52:42 > 0:52:45I wouldn't believe that we'd be shouting in the wind.
0:52:45 > 0:52:47I think if we leave, we can take back control,
0:52:47 > 0:52:50and there are certain key benefits, not just £350 million a week
0:52:50 > 0:52:53which we can spend on our priorities,
0:52:53 > 0:52:57but the chance to create a better way of operating in this country,
0:52:57 > 0:52:58a more democratic way.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01This is complete fantasy.
0:53:01 > 0:53:04You people have failed to demonstrate
0:53:04 > 0:53:07what this country would be like after leaving.
0:53:07 > 0:53:09- You don't know.- I do. - Oh, you do, do you?
0:53:09 > 0:53:12Yes, I do, because Britain has been a sovereign independent nation
0:53:12 > 0:53:14in the past and we can be again.
0:53:14 > 0:53:16You don't need to take it from me - the Prime Minister himself
0:53:16 > 0:53:20has said that of course we could survive and prosper outside the EU.
0:53:20 > 0:53:22To the Leave campaign,
0:53:22 > 0:53:26reclaiming our sovereignty is a big reason to quit.
0:53:26 > 0:53:28But for the Remain campaign,
0:53:28 > 0:53:33the whole point is that what they call "sharing" leaves us better off.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35There's one man in British politics
0:53:35 > 0:53:38who's forever happy to stand up for the European Union -
0:53:38 > 0:53:41former Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg.
0:53:41 > 0:53:42Asked a straight question -
0:53:42 > 0:53:45has national sovereignty been restricted?
0:53:45 > 0:53:47Yes or no? What do you say?
0:53:47 > 0:53:48I think it's been extended.
0:53:50 > 0:53:52- So the answer is yes or no? - It's been extended.
0:53:52 > 0:53:54So it hasn't been restricted, it's been extended.
0:53:54 > 0:53:57So the answer is no, you say there's been no curtailment.
0:53:57 > 0:54:00So there's a trade-off. There's a trade-off,
0:54:00 > 0:54:02you've got to be open about this, you've got...
0:54:02 > 0:54:06You're not sovereign if you're dependent upon the agreement of 27 other states.
0:54:06 > 0:54:09Yeah, so your understanding, or at least your apparent understanding,
0:54:09 > 0:54:11of sovereignty is that it's a sort of block of concrete
0:54:11 > 0:54:13and you chip away at it - it isn't.
0:54:13 > 0:54:15It's something you share with others
0:54:15 > 0:54:17to do things that you can't do on your own.
0:54:17 > 0:54:18We made this argument, of course,
0:54:18 > 0:54:20around Scotland and the United Kingdom.
0:54:20 > 0:54:23Everybody said at the time that we were stronger
0:54:23 > 0:54:24by doing stuff together.
0:54:24 > 0:54:26We were more sovereign, stronger,
0:54:26 > 0:54:29we were able to control our fate more fully by doing things together.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32That you might have the impression of greater sovereignty through
0:54:32 > 0:54:35splendid isolation, but actually what you do
0:54:35 > 0:54:38is you are weaker and less able to control the circumstances
0:54:38 > 0:54:39which affect your everyday life.
0:54:39 > 0:54:41It does make you wonder what on earth
0:54:41 > 0:54:43we have that building behind you for.
0:54:43 > 0:54:45To hold British governments to account,
0:54:45 > 0:54:47to form British governments.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50British governments can be outvoted within the European Union.
0:54:50 > 0:54:51I wish Brexiteers were more honest.
0:54:51 > 0:54:53If they really don't like the idea
0:54:53 > 0:54:57of Britain ever jointly taking decisions with others
0:54:57 > 0:55:00and ever remotely entertaining the possibility that others
0:55:00 > 0:55:03might outvote us, then I really think we should get out of the WTO,
0:55:03 > 0:55:07get out of the United Nations, get out of NATO - it's absurd.
0:55:07 > 0:55:10Even if means that we may have to go along with a policy
0:55:10 > 0:55:12we don't agree with?
0:55:12 > 0:55:15If you want to give British exporters and British manufacturers
0:55:15 > 0:55:18the ability to freely trade across the European continent,
0:55:18 > 0:55:21you've got to get beyond this idea that any Tom, Dick or Harry
0:55:21 > 0:55:24can stop even the most minuscule decisions.
0:55:24 > 0:55:26I think that was the right thing to do.
0:55:26 > 0:55:28It was the greatest act of pooling sovereignty
0:55:28 > 0:55:31ever undertaken by any British government.
0:55:31 > 0:55:33I think Margaret Thatcher was right
0:55:33 > 0:55:35and I think that principle - that by pooling things together,
0:55:35 > 0:55:38we get a whole bunch of things we can't do on our own -
0:55:38 > 0:55:42was right back in the 1990s and it's correct now in 2016.
0:55:42 > 0:55:45I hadn't realised you were such a fan of Margaret Thatcher.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48I think on the Single European Act, she was dead right.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50- She regretted it. - She regretted it.
0:55:50 > 0:55:53- She said she'd been betrayed. - Absolute nonsense.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55She knew exactly what she was signing up to.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04So should we stay in or get out?
0:56:05 > 0:56:09Our European friends say they don't want us to go.
0:56:09 > 0:56:12We really want you to be in the family,
0:56:12 > 0:56:15because what will you be doing outside the family?
0:56:17 > 0:56:20Yet the biggest party we send to the European Parliament
0:56:20 > 0:56:22doesn't even believe in the EU.
0:56:23 > 0:56:25I think it's un-British and undemocratic.
0:56:27 > 0:56:30There is simply no question about it.
0:56:30 > 0:56:35The traditional idea of national sovereignty has been lost.
0:56:35 > 0:56:38The court prevails over any national court decision.
0:56:38 > 0:56:43But there is an argument that the notion of sharing sovereignty
0:56:43 > 0:56:46is essential in the modern world.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49We are much stronger on the world scene
0:56:49 > 0:56:54by being one strong, united power
0:56:54 > 0:56:57than being 28 single little countries.
0:56:57 > 0:57:02National sovereignty hasn't been killed with a single blow,
0:57:02 > 0:57:04like the execution of a king.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07It has slipped away quietly but inexorably
0:57:07 > 0:57:11over the four decades since we joined.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15But have we traded it for other gains in this changed world?
0:57:17 > 0:57:19In the end, a complicated relationship
0:57:19 > 0:57:22is going to come down to a very simple decision -
0:57:22 > 0:57:26do we stay or do we go?
0:57:26 > 0:57:30Everything - the economy, immigration,
0:57:30 > 0:57:32curvy cucumbers, oven gloves -
0:57:32 > 0:57:35everything comes back to sovereignty.
0:57:35 > 0:57:38Who takes those decisions?
0:57:38 > 0:57:43No question that British national sovereignty has been lost.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46The question for us is, has it been worth it?
0:57:48 > 0:57:51If you'd like to know more about the possible implications
0:57:51 > 0:57:55of a Leave or Remain vote in the referendum,
0:57:55 > 0:57:59the Open University has been looking at some of the implications
0:57:59 > 0:58:01for sovereignty and for the economy.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03Go to...
0:58:07 > 0:58:10..and follow the links for the Open University.