:00:00. > :00:07.It's an election that will shape Scotland for the next five years.
:00:08. > :00:11.It's about your community, your family - it's about you.
:00:12. > :00:50.The battle for votes starts right here.
:00:51. > :00:55.Hello and welcome to the BBC studios here in Glasgow.
:00:56. > :00:59.It's the first day of the Holyrood election campaign, and for the first
:01:00. > :01:00.time in this contest we've brought together the leaders
:01:01. > :01:04.Debating head-to-head tonight, Nicola Sturgeon
:01:05. > :01:11.the Scottish Conservatives' Ruth Davidson,
:01:12. > :01:15.the Scottish Liberal Democrats Willie Rennie,
:01:16. > :01:18.Patrick Harvie, co-convenor of the Scottish Greens,
:01:19. > :01:20.and the UK Independence Party's Member
:01:21. > :01:26.of the European Parliament for Scotland, David Coburn.
:01:27. > :01:33.You can join the debate using the hashtag #LeadersDebate
:01:34. > :01:38.We're on air with Radio nan Gaidheal, and there's live reaction
:01:39. > :01:44.Let's go straight to our first question.
:01:45. > :01:51.It's from Nick Arthur, a self-mployed businessman.
:01:52. > :01:59.In what way will the prime lists use tax raising powers to improve the
:02:00. > :02:04.lives of Scottish people? Nicola Sturgeon? We are putting forward in
:02:05. > :02:08.this election tax proposals but are fair, balanced, progressive and
:02:09. > :02:11.sensible. We are going to ask the 10% highest earners in the country
:02:12. > :02:15.to shoulder a bit more of the burden. We don't think it's right to
:02:16. > :02:20.do what George Osborne is planning to do, which is to give a very large
:02:21. > :02:24.tax cut to the best off in our society. We want to use that money
:02:25. > :02:28.instead to invest in our health service and to protect people
:02:29. > :02:31.against Tory austerity. Secondly, we want to go further than the UK
:02:32. > :02:38.Government in raising the personal allowance. We want to raise it to
:02:39. > :02:43.?12,750 the amount of money you can earn, before you pay any income tax
:02:44. > :02:47.at all. But thirdly, we don't want to raise the basic rate of income
:02:48. > :02:50.tax because 2.2 million people are struggling to make ends meet,
:02:51. > :02:54.shouldn't pay the price of Tory austerity. Taken together, those
:02:55. > :02:58.proposals with our local tax proposals will help us to raise an
:02:59. > :03:02.additional ?2 billion over the next parliament that we can invest in
:03:03. > :03:06.public services, in growing our economy, in protecting disabled and
:03:07. > :03:10.vulnerable people, and I very much hope continue to make life better
:03:11. > :03:14.for people across our country. And whoever forms the next government
:03:15. > :03:18.will have control of all income tax rates and band in Scotland for the
:03:19. > :03:23.first time from April 20 17. Kezia Dugdale, what would your party do?
:03:24. > :03:27.Nicola Sturgeon, watch it would do with the powers to raise an
:03:28. > :03:31.additional money, it's not enough to stop the cuts and end austerity. The
:03:32. > :03:35.Labour Party is arguing we should put 1p higher than the rate that
:03:36. > :03:39.George Osborne set on the Scottish basic rate of income tax and if we
:03:40. > :03:42.did that, we can raise enough money to stop the cuts, to make different
:03:43. > :03:47.choices from the Tories. One more tax thing we would do, we would ask
:03:48. > :03:58.the richest up a bit more. ASBOs people who earn ?150,000 a year to
:03:59. > :04:00.pay a 50p rate. It's something Nicola Sturgeon used to stand for
:04:01. > :04:02.but it's something the Labour Party will do that together with our tax
:04:03. > :04:05.raising proposals will raise enough money to stop the cuts and that's
:04:06. > :04:08.what the vast majority of people want us to do, use the powers, and
:04:09. > :04:12.Tory austerity and invest in our future in Scotland. Given the
:04:13. > :04:15.squeeze on public spending, Nicola Sturgeon, why are you prepared to
:04:16. > :04:20.put a penny on income tax? Why aren't you prepared to put up the
:04:21. > :04:23.top rate to 50p? Firstly on the basic rate, 2.2 million people
:04:24. > :04:28.including half a million pensioners pay the basic rate of income tax.
:04:29. > :04:33.Many of them are still struggling to make ends meet. Household incomes
:04:34. > :04:36.are under real pressure. I don't think its right to transfer the
:04:37. > :04:41.burden of Tory austerity onto their shoulders. Rather than do that, I
:04:42. > :04:45.want the top 10% to shoulder more of the burden, so we are not passing on
:04:46. > :04:54.that tax cut that George Osborne is proposing. You need to end the tax.
:04:55. > :04:59.We would protect the 20,000 people who earn under ?20,000 a year from
:05:00. > :05:04.paying a penny more tax. You have failed to explain how you would do
:05:05. > :05:08.that. Is the principle of the idea. I disagree with the principle of
:05:09. > :05:12.transferring the burden of Tory austerity to those who can least
:05:13. > :05:16.afford it. Kezia Dugdale says she would protect those on low earnings.
:05:17. > :05:23.How would you do that? We advocated using the rebate mechanism, earning
:05:24. > :05:25.?20,000 a year would not pay a penny more. How would you do that? What
:05:26. > :05:30.mechanism would you use? We would more. How would you do that? What
:05:31. > :05:34.use local authorities, who handle cash, and we have spoken to council
:05:35. > :05:40.leaders across the country. How you would do it from 2017? 2017? You can
:05:41. > :05:46.use the powers of the Scottish Parliament to make a difference.
:05:47. > :05:56.Which power? Substantial new tax and welfare powers. If you were less
:05:57. > :05:58.than ?20,000 a year, you won't pay a penny more under Labour's proposals.
:05:59. > :06:02.It's a really important next point. How would you do that? If you earn
:06:03. > :06:06.?21,000 a year, you might be worried about what you mean for that pocket.
:06:07. > :06:12.The answer is ?1.80 a week. The choice of not doing that is far
:06:13. > :06:18.greater. Nicola Sturgeon has ripped ?500 million... Last chance. How
:06:19. > :06:22.would you ensure that those on lower earnings, less than ?20,000, would
:06:23. > :06:25.not pay the basic rate? You have new powers in the Scottish parliament
:06:26. > :06:29.which allow you to set the threshold rate, we would set new thresholds to
:06:30. > :06:35.protect low-income earners. I don't want people earning ?20,000 to pay
:06:36. > :06:40.the burden of Tory austerity. I'm saying over ?40,000. The point we
:06:41. > :06:46.are proposing, it will raise over the next Parliament on additional ?2
:06:47. > :06:52.billion. Money we can invest in our health service and education, it's
:06:53. > :06:56.fair and balanced. On the 50p point, let me ask you, a year ago, you less
:06:57. > :07:00.than a year ago, you were arguing for a 50p top rate of tax. Why not
:07:01. > :07:05.now, when you are about to inherit the power, should you be re-elected
:07:06. > :07:08.to introduce that in Scotland? Let me set out the pragmatic reasons
:07:09. > :07:12.behind the decision. I said we won't do it in the first year we have
:07:13. > :07:16.powers. I haven't ruled it out for the rest of the parliament. The
:07:17. > :07:20.reason is I have independent civil service analysis saying it might
:07:21. > :07:23.lose as ?30 million. Why is that the case? Because until evolution,
:07:24. > :07:28.unlike under independence, yes, we will get the power to set the tax
:07:29. > :07:32.rate but we don't get the power to set the rules on tax avoidance --
:07:33. > :07:37.devolution. I've said if I am re-elected as the First Minister
:07:38. > :07:41.Council of economic advisers to look at this on an annual basis, to see
:07:42. > :07:46.if we can find ways of mitigating that risk. I think there should be a
:07:47. > :07:50.50p top rate of tax, but you don't set tax rates if it's going to lose
:07:51. > :07:55.you money. I don't want to turn around... And say we've got less
:07:56. > :08:01.money to spend on our health service. Let's hear from the
:08:02. > :08:06.Conservatives' Ruth Davidson. She has wanted to make Scotland the
:08:07. > :08:10.highest taxed part of the UK and the opposition wants to take money off
:08:11. > :08:13.working Scots. We have a principle, we don't think people in Scotland
:08:14. > :08:16.should have to pay more tax than the rest of the UK and we don't think
:08:17. > :08:19.it's good for Scotland either because we don't believe hanging a
:08:20. > :08:23.sign at the border that face higher taxes here encourages the growth or
:08:24. > :08:27.investment all the jobs that we need to properly fund our public services
:08:28. > :08:37.in Scotland. We want to make sure we're not taking ever more money for
:08:38. > :08:39.government. We want to make sure that people like Nick, who asked the
:08:40. > :08:40.question, who works hard running his small business, have their pay
:08:41. > :08:44.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
:08:45. > :08:48.. You want to restore prescription charges and charge people to go to
:08:49. > :08:54.university. That's Tory policy at this election. Willie Rennie. What
:08:55. > :08:57.we have heard from Ruth Davidson is her backing of George Osborne's tax
:08:58. > :09:02.we have heard from Ruth Davidson is plan. She wants to give a tax cut to
:09:03. > :09:04.the wealthiest in society. I want to make a transformational investment
:09:05. > :09:09.in education. Scottish education is to be one of the best in the world.
:09:10. > :09:14.Now it's slipping down the rankings. It is an urgent situation. We need
:09:15. > :09:18.to invest ?475 million in education for nurseries, for schools and for
:09:19. > :09:22.colleges, to get Scottish education racing back at the International
:09:23. > :09:25.league table. I would not ask for this investment if it wasn't
:09:26. > :09:30.incredibly important. Not just to give kids a chance in life that they
:09:31. > :09:36.deserve, but also to get the economy working again. We've got huge skills
:09:37. > :09:41.gap in the economy. We need to make that investment, to have that
:09:42. > :09:45.transformational change. That's why it's a penny on income tax for
:09:46. > :09:48.education. It's a penny on all bands, including the basic rate,
:09:49. > :09:54.which is paid by people with relatively modest incomes. Nobody
:09:55. > :09:59.earning under ?19,000 would pay a penny more in income tax. The
:10:00. > :10:02.differences, because Liberal Democrats and government at
:10:03. > :10:07.Westminster, we advanced the raising of the tax threshold and because of
:10:08. > :10:14.that raising of the tax threshold now to ?11,000, nobody will pay a
:10:15. > :10:19.single penny more Hang on a minute. Over ?19,000, can I answer the
:10:20. > :10:24.question, over ?19,000, you would in turn, pay a single penny more.
:10:25. > :10:28.Increase the personal allowance. This is the way to make it
:10:29. > :10:36.progressive. You give with one hand and take it away with another hand.
:10:37. > :10:40.You seem to be... Listen... Hang on a second, if you talk over one
:10:41. > :10:46.another nobody at home can hear and they will switch off. Patrick
:10:47. > :10:49.Harvie. Thanks very much, I fear the next six weeks we are going to hear
:10:50. > :10:52.a lot of people talking over one another. I'd like to bring this to
:10:53. > :10:56.some key principles about what we should be looking to achieve for our
:10:57. > :11:01.society, with the tax powers we have got. The tax powers that are coming
:11:02. > :11:06.and the tax powers we have had since 1999, the ability to set local tax
:11:07. > :11:10.policies, to fund the local services that so many people rely on, and
:11:11. > :11:14.we've not really used those. So we have to be ready to scrap the
:11:15. > :11:18.council tax, as Nicola has campaigned many times over, it's
:11:19. > :11:23.time to kill off the council tax. It's more than 25 years out of date.
:11:24. > :11:28.We also need to join that with the national tax powers that are coming.
:11:29. > :11:33.Set out your proposals, are you in favour of raising tax, using the new
:11:34. > :11:36.powers? Reducing tax, leaving it broadly the same? We certainly need
:11:37. > :11:41.to raise the revenue to prevent the cuts. I am Rhoose and Kezia and
:11:42. > :11:46.Nicola and Willie and David should all be paying more tax, not just
:11:47. > :11:50.people on ?150,000. We are on high salaries, that these people are
:11:51. > :11:54.paying for from their taxes. People on our salary should pay more tax.
:11:55. > :12:00.We need to close the wealth gap as well as the income gap in order to
:12:01. > :12:09.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
:12:10. > :12:15.. We don't want Scottish taxes to be higher than in England, or I have --
:12:16. > :12:18.higher at all. I'd like to see Scots paying in Scotland and building
:12:19. > :12:21.businesses and employing Scots. Jobs is the thing we require and we won't
:12:22. > :12:25.do that if we keep frightening people off and telling them, you are
:12:26. > :12:29.a bad person, you are making money. We should encourage people to make
:12:30. > :12:33.money and to invest in businesses and to create jobs for other people.
:12:34. > :12:38.What these people are all suggesting that slid nonsense. You will scare
:12:39. > :12:45.people off. This country needs jobs. Ruth Davidson' Davidson's party says
:12:46. > :12:52.tax in Scotland shouldn't be higher than the rest of the UK, that's what
:12:53. > :12:55.you have said? The Conservatives are forever promising lower taxes and
:12:56. > :12:59.never give them. We need taxes that are fair to give as good social
:13:00. > :13:03.services, we must have good social services and good health service but
:13:04. > :13:08.we would let -- must make sure that Scotland's taxes are not higher than
:13:09. > :13:12.the rest of the UK because one thing governments have learned, if you put
:13:13. > :13:16.taxes higher everybody else you are not competitive, people will leave.
:13:17. > :13:22.Let's hear from our audience. Gentleman in the middle with the
:13:23. > :13:25.pink tie? Ukip and the Conservatives are quite right, we have a ?10
:13:26. > :13:30.billion debt and it's getting worse. If we don't attract investment, we
:13:31. > :13:35.will never get out of the mess. How are you going to do that, when you
:13:36. > :13:39.get more money in England than up here? It's counter-productive. OK.
:13:40. > :13:45.The lady on the front row there, then at the back? Lady on the front.
:13:46. > :13:49.Yes, when the 40p rate was introduced about 30 years ago it
:13:50. > :13:52.applied to about one in 20 people, but obviously over the years wages
:13:53. > :13:57.have risen and it now applies to one in seven people, so a lot of people
:13:58. > :14:02.that fall into that 40p bracket are people like firemen, policemen,
:14:03. > :14:07.nurses. Do you support the raising of the threshold for paying the 40p?
:14:08. > :14:14.I do, and we should increase everybody's tax by 1p, as we have
:14:15. > :14:17.such a deficit, the highest in Europe, and we have to decrease that
:14:18. > :14:21.deficit somehow. We can't keep putting money into education and
:14:22. > :14:26.health if we haven't got the money. The gentleman at the back? Surely
:14:27. > :14:32.the point isn't whether it's a penny or a pound in the tax, whether it
:14:33. > :14:34.the richest going to take the burden on, they are targeting their own
:14:35. > :14:38.people here. We should be looking at people who got the country into the
:14:39. > :14:42.mess in the first place, that is whether taxes are coming from and we
:14:43. > :14:46.are wrong to start to look at ourselves, whether it's a penny or
:14:47. > :14:48.whether it's a pound, whatever, the people yet again have been asked to
:14:49. > :14:58.carry the burden. Kezia Dugdale. Why do we want to put up tax? The
:14:59. > :15:02.Labour Party wants to use the powers to invest in education so we can
:15:03. > :15:05.bring jobs to the country. We can't compete with other European nations
:15:06. > :15:09.and other countries around the world on low skills and low, insecure
:15:10. > :15:13.work. We have to get high skilled jobs here which is why we have to
:15:14. > :15:17.invest in education to Michu everyone in the country can fulfil
:15:18. > :15:20.their potential. The 50p policy we have advocated is specifically for
:15:21. > :15:29.education. I can't believe that Nicola Sturgeon, who's made her name
:15:30. > :15:31.as a great socialist and crusade against austerity is standing here
:15:32. > :15:34.tonight, making the excuse that she won't introduce the 50p tax rate
:15:35. > :15:37.because rich people might avoid paying it. Why is it one rule for
:15:38. > :15:40.her and one rule for everyone else? Ruth Davidson does not want to
:15:41. > :15:42.introduce the 50p tax rate either. The lady in the front row talks
:15:43. > :15:46.about people being dragged into the The lady in the front row talks
:15:47. > :15:50.higher 40p rate and according to the ONS, it is one in ten nurses, a
:15:51. > :15:53.quarter of schoolteachers and a third of police officers in the UK
:15:54. > :15:57.that pay that rate. That was never what it was designed for. What you
:15:58. > :16:00.are going to be asked to do on the 5th of May is decide who's going to
:16:01. > :16:09.be the government and the opposition of this country. What we have got at
:16:10. > :16:12.the moment, somebody saying let's put up taxes and someone saying,
:16:13. > :16:14.let's put them up even higher. Wouldn't it be good having some in
:16:15. > :16:17.their saying let's drag the country and the parliament back to the
:16:18. > :16:19.centre, not ever further to the left? APPLAUSE
:16:20. > :16:22.Do you seriously think you could leapfrog labour in this election?
:16:23. > :16:26.It's entirely up to the people at home but there's a vacancy in this
:16:27. > :16:30.country for a strong opposition that told the government of the day
:16:31. > :16:35.account. In nine years and six leaders, I don't think the Labour
:16:36. > :16:38.Party has laid a glove on the SNP. With Davidson is talking about
:16:39. > :16:41.public sector workers in the middle income bracket but she has told you
:16:42. > :16:44.that if we don't make every choices to what the Tories are doing down
:16:45. > :16:48.south, we will lose tens of thousands of public sector jobs. We
:16:49. > :16:53.have lost 4000 teachers already under the SNP. What about the point
:16:54. > :16:57.about opposition? Are you worried the Conservatives will beat frog
:16:58. > :16:58.you? We have Bush the SMB to be bolder and more progressive at every
:16:59. > :17:04.stage. The Tories want to do less. stage. The Tories want to do less.
:17:05. > :17:07.-- pushed the SNP. I want to make this country fairer and will equal
:17:08. > :17:11.and I believe the Labour Party has the valleys to do that. I don't want
:17:12. > :17:15.to be in opposition, I want Nicola Sturgeon's desk and serve this
:17:16. > :17:22.country as First Minister. You can have the desk but you can't have the
:17:23. > :17:28.job! We are in Glasgow today and there are 30 employees on Glasgow
:17:29. > :17:33.City Council on over ?100,000 annual salary and five employees on more
:17:34. > :17:37.than ?150,000. Before we start raising more taxes from poor people
:17:38. > :17:40.all for people who don't have a lot of money or from many middle-class
:17:41. > :17:45.people in this country, we are one month away -- who are one month away
:17:46. > :17:49.from the mortgage default, before we ask them for more money, we should
:17:50. > :17:55.get rid of the Council by games and make sure we get value for money for
:17:56. > :18:01.the rates we pay. We need to raise more revenue to protect public
:18:02. > :18:07.services... ?150,000? The question is how we do that? I will be asking
:18:08. > :18:10.people earning over ?43,000 to pay precisely ?300 more than they would
:18:11. > :18:15.if they got George Osborne's tax-cut. Ruthie is wrong to say that
:18:16. > :18:17.would put people off coming to Scotland because Scottish taxpayers
:18:18. > :18:21.get lots of things for their taxpayer money that taxpayers in
:18:22. > :18:26.England don't get. It goes to university, so their child can get
:18:27. > :18:28.free tuition. Why are you being far more timid on tax as First Minister,
:18:29. > :18:33.who wants to keep that going than more timid on tax as First Minister,
:18:34. > :18:38.you were as Leader of the Opposition, in the Westminster
:18:39. > :18:41.election less than 12 months ago? I've got Ruth Davidson saying I'm
:18:42. > :18:45.taxing rich people too much, Kezia Dugdale saying we are not taxing
:18:46. > :18:49.poor people enough. I think that says to me we are probably in
:18:50. > :18:53.exactly the right place in this election.
:18:54. > :18:57.exactly the right place in this Enough of the noises off, David. I
:18:58. > :19:01.want to hear from Willie Rennie. The implication from the question in new
:19:02. > :19:05.audience was that somehow modestly increasing taxes by 1p in the pound
:19:06. > :19:09.on all the rates will have a dramatic impact on investment in the
:19:10. > :19:13.economy. I can tell you what will have a dramatic impact on the
:19:14. > :19:17.investment in the economy, is not having the skills for businesses to
:19:18. > :19:22.fill the jobs, to create the growth, and create the wealth and the taxes.
:19:23. > :19:28.It is a virtuous circle. That is why we need to invest. It is a measure
:19:29. > :19:31.that will be required to have a transformational effect. If we don't
:19:32. > :19:34.do this, there will be large sections of society that will not
:19:35. > :19:37.participate in the economy. I want them to be trained and
:19:38. > :19:40.participating. There are many businesses that don't have the
:19:41. > :19:47.skills they need. I want them to have the skills. I'm going to bring
:19:48. > :19:49.in two more voices from the audience and then we will bring in Patrick
:19:50. > :19:54.in two more voices from the audience Harvie. The gentleman in the
:19:55. > :19:58.stripey, purple shirt. Are there no mechanisms now to create new taxes?
:19:59. > :20:01.You talk about tax avoidance but how much was Amazon given to open their
:20:02. > :20:05.You talk about tax avoidance but how building? What kind of tax policy
:20:06. > :20:12.would you favour? I would go with Willie Rennie or Kezia Dugdale, add
:20:13. > :20:14.1p. And this gentleman? We have got was current account deficit in
:20:15. > :20:18.Europe, 9.7% and it will be higher was current account deficit in
:20:19. > :20:22.next year because we have less oil revenue and 1p on the income taxed
:20:23. > :20:25.only raises ?500 million. The big issue is we are going to run out of
:20:26. > :20:28.money and be the laughing stock of the world. With our deficit. We have
:20:29. > :20:31.money and be the laughing stock of got a real problem. I want to know
:20:32. > :20:36.how we are going to reduce the deficit of the country. The whole of
:20:37. > :20:42.the UK? Scotland. Patrick Harvie is the only one who has not spoken.
:20:43. > :20:45.There's a connection between those two. The economy as the hole and the
:20:46. > :20:48.public sector books would be a lot healthier if we did force big, tax
:20:49. > :20:52.dodging companies to pay their fair share. At the moment, I'm afraid in
:20:53. > :20:58.Scotland, we are still giving them grants and access to tax payers
:20:59. > :21:03.money to do what they do. The thing is, for most of my lifetime, we have
:21:04. > :21:07.had an economic model, I call it the failed economic model, the outgoing
:21:08. > :21:12.economic model, which is about lower taxes, lower taxes, lower taxes,
:21:13. > :21:15.governments skewering their citizens with arguments about tax competition
:21:16. > :21:19.and big business is so clever and we need to attract it or they will go
:21:20. > :21:25.away. The result of that is chronic inequality both in incomes and in
:21:26. > :21:32.wealth. We have got people working every hour they can get. The system
:21:33. > :21:34.from Holyrood? We need to have boldness and the courage of our
:21:35. > :21:37.convictions in Scotland to take the economy in a different direction,
:21:38. > :21:42.now we have the powers to do it. We need to do that with the tax system
:21:43. > :21:46.and also with public investment in priorities like housing and energy
:21:47. > :21:48.and infrastructure, which it takes the public purse to invest in. The
:21:49. > :21:52.and infrastructure, which it takes market will not do it for us. Ruth
:21:53. > :21:56.does not want a sign on the border saying Scotland is closed for
:21:57. > :22:00.business. I don't want a sign on the border saying Scotland, the country
:22:01. > :22:01.that trashes its public services. That is the choice we have to make
:22:02. > :22:10.at this election. That is the choice we have to make
:22:11. > :22:14.There will be a massive flight of capital if we followed your model.
:22:15. > :22:17.What is to stop people registering again south of the border? They have
:22:18. > :22:19.a lot of clever accountants and clever people and they are not going
:22:20. > :22:24.to sit there and be plucked by Kate to sit there and be plucked by Kate
:22:25. > :22:27.-- plucked like a chicken. They will move their business to another part
:22:28. > :22:32.of the UK or another part of the world. Get real! Another couple of
:22:33. > :22:36.points from the audience, this lady in the middle. That is the same old
:22:37. > :22:38.scaremongering from Ukip. People should not be scared by that. They
:22:39. > :22:41.have to be prepared to pay for a should not be scared by that. They
:22:42. > :22:46.good standing of living and for good services. We can't have the SNP
:22:47. > :22:53.scared to put up taxes, council tax frozen for a decade, everything has
:22:54. > :22:57.to be paid for. And a voice from up the back, the gentleman in the
:22:58. > :23:06.glasses, in the middle. Where does Patrick's dreamworld exist? LAUGHTER
:23:07. > :23:09.I'm going to move on... We have a challenge in investing in
:23:10. > :23:13.sustainable industries at the moment... You have had your say and
:23:14. > :23:16.we are going to move onto another question which is related to the new
:23:17. > :23:23.powers Deborah Torrence, who is a digital artist. -- from Deborah
:23:24. > :23:27.Torrence. If elected, what are your party's plans to mitigate the
:23:28. > :23:32.upcoming changes in welfare that are going to hit Scotland? The welfare
:23:33. > :23:38.system is operated UK wide and again, from next year, Hollywood
:23:39. > :23:41.will have ?2.5 billion, maybe a bit more, worth of welfare powers
:23:42. > :23:46.including the devolution of some specific benefits. What would you do
:23:47. > :23:49.with that lot, Ruth Davidson? One of the things we have already talked
:23:50. > :23:52.about is changing the rate of carers allowance. We don't think it is
:23:53. > :23:56.right it is less than jobseeker's allowance and we would put it up. We
:23:57. > :24:07.are also looking at when disability benefits are devolved, we see that
:24:08. > :24:10.the PIP has been in unused. The personal independence payment,
:24:11. > :24:13.replacing a bundle of benefits. To help people have more independence,
:24:14. > :24:18.we are looking to devolve that down to closer to where people need it.
:24:19. > :24:21.One of the submissions of Lee Smith Commission, looking at how we use
:24:22. > :24:26.the new powers, came from the Scottish local authorities who said
:24:27. > :24:29.it would be better because we are bringing health and social
:24:30. > :24:32.get-together, that we brought it closer to people themselves, whether
:24:33. > :24:33.that is through the health board model or local authorities or
:24:34. > :24:36.that is through the health board through a health and social care
:24:37. > :24:41.partnership. That is some thing we want to see developed. Willie
:24:42. > :24:44.Rennie? I think actually, some good work has been done by the SNP
:24:45. > :24:48.government. I don't often say that but there has been some good work.
:24:49. > :24:53.They have reached out and engaged with civic Scotland and developed a
:24:54. > :24:57.I think, which involves dignity at the heart of it, which is accessible
:24:58. > :25:01.and a fair service but also suited to people's needs in Scotland which
:25:02. > :25:06.is the whole purpose of devolving this new, Scottish welfare fund for
:25:07. > :25:10.the first time, ?3 billion. But there's UK wide pressure on welfare
:25:11. > :25:15.spending, and attempt to cut that. The question was, what would your
:25:16. > :25:19.party do with the new powers to mitigate it? I was just coming to
:25:20. > :25:23.that. In terms of the Terra's benefit, we need to bring that up to
:25:24. > :25:27.the level of jobseeker's allowance. I think we need to make sure that
:25:28. > :25:30.the bedroom tax is abolished altogether. We are mitigating it
:25:31. > :25:35.just now but it needs to go altogether. Yes, we are mitigating
:25:36. > :25:41.it in Scotland, that's correct. We also need to make sure that the work
:25:42. > :25:47.programme and work choices, the new, devolved employer ability schemes,
:25:48. > :25:49.are working well and in partnership with colleges and councils. Those
:25:50. > :25:55.are the powers we've got and the changes I would like to make. David
:25:56. > :25:58.Coburn. The country's only as good as they hold Garrett gives and I'm a
:25:59. > :26:01.great believer in health care, my family worked for the health care
:26:02. > :26:04.system. My father was a pharmacist. I very much care about that and I
:26:05. > :26:08.want to see good use of public money. It is not just a question of
:26:09. > :26:12.throwing money at things. It is a question of how you use the money. I
:26:13. > :26:18.think there's an awful lot of wasted on back-office staff and not enough
:26:19. > :26:23.on front office. We're not talking about the NHS specifically by the
:26:24. > :26:31.new social welfare powers. Does Ukip have a policy for the welfare
:26:32. > :26:37.powers? Yes and my biggest worry is the TTIP contract. We not talking
:26:38. > :26:41.about the NHS or about TTIP. But that perfect fit. With respect, the
:26:42. > :26:45.question was about the new welfare powers coming to the Scottish
:26:46. > :26:51.parliament. Does Ukip have Dolgov the? We want to spend more on
:26:52. > :26:55.health... Welfare, not health! We want to spend it on the front
:26:56. > :27:00.office. I think the answer to your question is no, they don't! We don't
:27:01. > :27:03.want to spend ?150,000 on salaries for council staff. That's an awful
:27:04. > :27:08.lot of money. I want to see the money used properly, not in more
:27:09. > :27:16.bureaucracy. I want to see it used on nurses. At the moment... 100,000
:27:17. > :27:18.have applied to be nurses... Like I say, we're going to move on, I'm
:27:19. > :27:22.still not clear what your policy is say, we're going to move on, I'm
:27:23. > :27:26.but you are out of time. I want to bring back in our question, Deborah.
:27:27. > :27:30.I don't know if you can tell us more about your own circumstances and
:27:31. > :27:35.what you are concerned about? Of course. The Tories backtracked on
:27:36. > :27:43.the personal independence payments recently. But we are still going to
:27:44. > :27:49.be impacted by them when the ELA... The disability living allowance, one
:27:50. > :27:52.of the benefits being devolved. Is a massive difference between being
:27:53. > :27:55.able to walk 50 metres and 20 metres. That is still going to
:27:56. > :28:00.impact a lot of people in Scotland, people who will end up losing their
:28:01. > :28:06.motor ability vehicles, losing their legs, essentially. -- that assisted
:28:07. > :28:11.vehicles. When I listen to what Ruth was saying about what he wanted to
:28:12. > :28:13.do, you have got a bit of a cheat, considering all the cuts that are
:28:14. > :28:20.happening right across Social Security...
:28:21. > :28:24.happening right across Social I'm going to let Ruth Davidson
:28:25. > :28:29.answer that and then bring in someone else. Firstly, looking to
:28:30. > :28:31.the long-term, we are trying to get more people into work than ever
:28:32. > :28:35.before including the people furthest from the jobs market and often, that
:28:36. > :28:37.has been people who have had disability ability than difficulties
:28:38. > :28:41.and we're doing that. Where I think the UK Government has gone wrong and
:28:42. > :28:44.I spoke up at the weekend and I believe the changes are not going
:28:45. > :28:47.ahead, the changes were not about cuts, they were about cutting the
:28:48. > :28:52.amount of increases. We have increased the amount being spent
:28:53. > :28:55.down south and across the UK on disability. So when Iain Duncan
:28:56. > :28:58.Smith resigned from the government and his resignation led to
:28:59. > :29:02.suggestions the government might be giving the impression that we are
:29:03. > :29:05.not all in this together, was he right? I thought the way in which
:29:06. > :29:11.they were going about it was wrong and I said that at the time... Know
:29:12. > :29:18.you didn't! When? You did not say that the cuts... It on the record,
:29:19. > :29:24.you can go up and look at it. After the event! I think that the
:29:25. > :29:27.long-term goals and aspirations of the UK Government to get more people
:29:28. > :29:31.into work right. Some of the short-term changes they have made
:29:32. > :29:35.have hit the people they want a lot. Which ones would you reverse? I
:29:36. > :29:40.already spoke about tax credits and at the weekend and about PIP. When
:29:41. > :29:43.these are coming, this is what we should be talking about, how we use
:29:44. > :29:49.them and do them and I think there's a different way of using PIP and the
:29:50. > :29:51.whole point about it, PIP, is having a personalised service for
:29:52. > :29:57.individuals which is better worked out at a local level when you are
:29:58. > :30:01.using the carers and users. Last year, the budget went wrong over tax
:30:02. > :30:02.credit and you criticise George Osborne for that and
:30:03. > :30:07.retrospectively, you're criticising him for what he was planning to do
:30:08. > :30:11.disability. Have you lost confidence in the Chancellor? Absolutely not,
:30:12. > :30:15.he's got the country back contract, we are the fastest-growing economy
:30:16. > :30:20.in the G7. So he is right and wrong, is that right? There's more people
:30:21. > :30:23.in work than ever before, we are the fastest-growing economy in the
:30:24. > :30:26.world, of any major nation and you see other countries who were in much
:30:27. > :30:27.world, of any major nation and you better position than us who are in
:30:28. > :30:36.much worse positions now. I want to concentrate on the
:30:37. > :30:41.question, Nicola Sturgeon, what would you do for Debra? When we get
:30:42. > :30:47.the powers, which would probably be 2018, we will aid -- establish our
:30:48. > :30:50.own Social Security agency so we are less reliant on the Department for
:30:51. > :30:54.Work and Pensions, which sanctions people more than it supports people,
:30:55. > :30:59.we will abolish the bedroom tax. Willie's party helped the Tories
:31:00. > :31:03.introduce the bedroom tax. We will set up a new maternity and early
:31:04. > :31:07.years allowance. I'm coming on to disabled, to help with child
:31:08. > :31:11.poverty, and we will maintain, not cut, support for disabled people. I
:31:12. > :31:15.think the Tory treatment of disabled people has been absolutely and
:31:16. > :31:16.utterly disgusting. It is scandalous.
:31:17. > :31:21.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
:31:22. > :31:27.. And Ruth Davidson... I'm no fan... I'm no fan of Iain Duncan Smith, but
:31:28. > :31:33.at least he found it within himself to resign over the cuts to Pip. Ruth
:31:34. > :31:39.Davidson said nothing. She went into hiding, she sat silent. She has also
:31:40. > :31:42.made her views clear this evening. But what I'm interested in is what
:31:43. > :31:47.you would do for Deborah. You said you will maintain spending on
:31:48. > :31:49.disability benefits. What do you mean by that? I don't think there
:31:50. > :31:56.should be any further cuts to disability benefits. First of all
:31:57. > :32:00.we've got to stop the cuts, yes, I would like to see us get into a
:32:01. > :32:03.position where we are more supportive of people with
:32:04. > :32:07.disabilities, for example when the Tories abolished the Independent
:32:08. > :32:11.living fund, we got the power over that. We didn't abolish it, we
:32:12. > :32:15.protected the Independent living fund, and we added an extra ?5
:32:16. > :32:21.million to the Independent living fund. No further cuts to disability
:32:22. > :32:23.related benefits if you are elected. Absolutely, I don't believe we
:32:24. > :32:29.related benefits if you are elected. should be trying to balance the
:32:30. > :32:33.books on the back of disabled people. That's a fundamental belief
:32:34. > :32:38.of mine. The Labour Party's proposals are similar to the SNP's.
:32:39. > :32:41.We have talked about abolishing the bedroom tax, using the new maternity
:32:42. > :32:45.grant to help struggling moderns. One idea is a bit different to the
:32:46. > :32:48.SNP, about having a new employment agency in Scotland. We will get
:32:49. > :32:52.powers over the work programme. I think we can do a lot better than
:32:53. > :32:56.without them we have seen the UK Government operate. We can have an
:32:57. > :33:01.agency in Scotland that helps people get into work and those people in
:33:02. > :33:04.work get on in work and that has to help people with disabilities get
:33:05. > :33:08.the support they need to take a full part in employment Handley decent,
:33:09. > :33:14.fulfilled lives and that's what we would do. To move on, Patrick
:33:15. > :33:18.Harvie. On some of those specific points you will find there is a lot
:33:19. > :33:22.of consensus in most of the political parties in the Scottish
:33:23. > :33:26.parliament anyway. But we also need to ask ourselves what the welfare
:33:27. > :33:29.state was for. I think it's inspiring what the post-2nd World
:33:30. > :33:34.War generation did, in creating a welfare state, and it's nothing less
:33:35. > :33:37.than a tragedy that it's been turned into something now whose purpose
:33:38. > :33:40.seems to be to bully people into low-paid work, subsidised that
:33:41. > :33:42.low-paid work and devil take the hide most for those who cannot work
:33:43. > :33:49.or can't find enough work. hide most for those who cannot work
:33:50. > :33:54.would The Greens do for Deborah? Our long-term goal is a citizen's
:33:55. > :33:58.income, a basic income for everybody, giving everybody the
:33:59. > :34:02.ability to balance paid work, volunteering, recovering from
:34:03. > :34:06.illness and creative work. It allows people to make that judgment. It
:34:07. > :34:08.values a great deal of work which is critical to our economy, which is
:34:09. > :34:13.not currently paid, and allows people to make their own choices. We
:34:14. > :34:16.can't get there in one single bound and I wish to goodness the Scottish
:34:17. > :34:21.Parliament was getting the ability to find all of its welfare policies
:34:22. > :34:25.because to invest in the support that people need, whether because of
:34:26. > :34:34.disability or anything else, to participate in our economy or
:34:35. > :34:36.society, it's not a cost, it's an investment in a stronger, more
:34:37. > :34:38.decent society. Thank you. APPLAUSE
:34:39. > :34:43.Another question, from Ritchie, I high school student. How are you
:34:44. > :34:48.going to improve education funding for young people, particularly from
:34:49. > :34:51.deprived areas in Scotland? Willie Rennie. I've already set out that we
:34:52. > :34:53.deprived areas in Scotland? Willie think there should be a
:34:54. > :34:58.transformational investment in education, a penny on income tax to
:34:59. > :35:02.invest, to make sure that our education system gets right back up
:35:03. > :35:09.there again. What we are proposing also is that packages to make sure
:35:10. > :35:12.that we invest in nursery education, because nursery education is the
:35:13. > :35:16.best educational investment that we can make. Kids, by the time they get
:35:17. > :35:21.a primary school, the kids from the poorest backgrounds are already
:35:22. > :35:25.about a year behind those from their well off counterparts. Is a lot of
:35:26. > :35:28.talk about the attainment gap and one measure of that, one statistic
:35:29. > :35:32.that helps to illustrate that, is that people from the wealthiest
:35:33. > :35:36.parts of Scotland are three times more likely to get five Highers when
:35:37. > :35:39.they finish their secondary education than those from the
:35:40. > :35:43.poorest parts of Scotland. What would you do to close that gap? I'm
:35:44. > :35:47.explaining that process. Because there's a gap already when they go
:35:48. > :35:52.to primary school, that widens as they go through the school. That's
:35:53. > :35:55.why we need to invest in a pupil premium, so you have nursery
:35:56. > :36:01.education to start off with to get them at the educational performance,
:36:02. > :36:04.then when they go to school they get prebuilt premium to give them
:36:05. > :36:06.further direct support from those kids from disadvantaged backgrounds
:36:07. > :36:10.to give them extra help so they can achieve more, so by the time they
:36:11. > :36:13.get to high school, with that extra support they've got a chance of
:36:14. > :36:15.going to university or to college, and that's what the final piece of
:36:16. > :36:19.going to university or to college, the jigsaw comes in. Because we've
:36:20. > :36:25.seen under Nicola's government there is 152,000 places being cut from our
:36:26. > :36:28.colleges. I want to change that. I want to invest ?108 million back in
:36:29. > :36:31.our colleges to take it back where it started and then we are creating
:36:32. > :36:35.opportunities for everybody at every level of education so we can get
:36:36. > :36:40.Scottish education back up to being the best in the world again.
:36:41. > :36:44.APPLAUSE Kezia Dugdale. The Labour Party
:36:45. > :36:47.wants to close the gap between the richest and poorest kids in the
:36:48. > :36:51.country, not because it's what we must do to have a more socially just
:36:52. > :36:55.society, we have to do it for economic reasons otherwise the world
:36:56. > :36:58.is going to passers-by and all those high school -- high skilled jobs of
:36:59. > :37:02.the future will go to other countries because we haven't been
:37:03. > :37:05.able to give the best possible education to fulfil the best
:37:06. > :37:08.possible start in life. In the newspaper this morning there was a
:37:09. > :37:13.story about Scotland having the highest dropout rates of any of the
:37:14. > :37:17.four nations when it comes to universities, so because we have
:37:18. > :37:20.kept education free of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon has cut the
:37:21. > :37:25.bursaries for the poorest students by a third and we are seeing the
:37:26. > :37:28.reality today, people from the poorest third dropping out of
:37:29. > :37:32.university. It's bad for equality and bad for our economy as well. I
:37:33. > :37:37.will come to the audience in a moment, Nicola Sturgeon, the cuts
:37:38. > :37:40.that Kezia Dugdale has accused you of making. The dropout rate from
:37:41. > :37:45.universities is too high, but it's dropped over the time we've been in
:37:46. > :37:51.government from 9%, took 6%. I want to get it further down than that.
:37:52. > :37:54.This, I hope, will be one of, not one of the defining issues of the
:37:55. > :37:58.next Parliament, it's certainly my biggest priority if I'm re-elected
:37:59. > :38:02.as First Minister. If there was one measure of that after the next five
:38:03. > :38:05.years should you continue in control, how would we know that you
:38:06. > :38:08.had done it question might I'm going to start publishing greater
:38:09. > :38:12.information than has ever been published before about the
:38:13. > :38:16.performance of schools. You've had it for years. You will be able to
:38:17. > :38:20.judge whether or not we are succeeding, but let me tell you what
:38:21. > :38:27.I will do to try to do it. Respond to Kezia Dugdale, I'm going to bring
:38:28. > :38:31.in a lady on the front row. I've heard Nicola Sturgeon say that
:38:32. > :38:34.spending on the NHS will rise over and above inflation, but will she
:38:35. > :38:39.and the rest of the panel make the same commitment to education? OK, I
:38:40. > :38:45.will try to come back to that, certainly with Nicola Sturgeon. The
:38:46. > :38:47.lady in red? As a high school teacher and someone who has
:38:48. > :38:52.obviously taught across the education systems around the world,
:38:53. > :38:53.my question to you is what you're actually going to do to help raise
:38:54. > :38:58.attainment in school as Wash that actually going to do to help raise
:38:59. > :39:02.support students in the school, because we keep talking about
:39:03. > :39:05.supplying funding that doesn't actually supply extra staffing or
:39:06. > :39:09.support to help those students with difficulties or gaps that come from
:39:10. > :39:14.their backgrounds. I will let you pick up on those. That's a fair
:39:15. > :39:18.point, in terms of what we will do, we will continue to expansion --
:39:19. > :39:22.continue the expansion of childcare we have seen in the past five years,
:39:23. > :39:27.we have expanded it and wanted a bullet in the next five years,
:39:28. > :39:30.because the education we give our youngest children is the best
:39:31. > :39:36.foundation. Secondly, we have set out plans to invest in additional
:39:37. > :39:38.?750 million directly in our schools, to help close the
:39:39. > :39:43.attainment gap, money that doesn't get filtered through different
:39:44. > :39:47.governments, but actually goes direct to headteachers to allow
:39:48. > :39:52.headteachers to employ more staff, or to take whatever steps they think
:39:53. > :39:56.is important to get attainment up. That's been the whole thrust of our
:39:57. > :39:59.attainment challenge that we set up. You say you are open-minded about
:40:00. > :40:03.the future of education, should some schools be run outside local
:40:04. > :40:06.authority control? I want to see more money get direct to
:40:07. > :40:10.headteachers, so I don't want to see it being always filtered through
:40:11. > :40:14.government. That's why the money I've spoken about, we are going to
:40:15. > :40:18.get direct into schools, because what I want to see is schools and
:40:19. > :40:19.teachers and head teachers in schools much more empowered to do
:40:20. > :40:22.teachers and head teachers in what they think needs to be done, to
:40:23. > :40:27.raise attainment. The third point I want to make is about higher
:40:28. > :40:31.education. We have seen a growth in the number of young people from
:40:32. > :40:35.deprived communities going to university, but I want there to be
:40:36. > :40:39.an equal chance to go to university regardless of your background. I'm
:40:40. > :40:45.going to widen access and keep education free. I think there's an
:40:46. > :40:48.issue about resource and we are increasing resource, we know there
:40:49. > :40:52.is ?650 million more coming to Scotland as part of last week's
:40:53. > :40:56.budget than otherwise, we would use about half of that on schools. There
:40:57. > :41:01.would be more money for councils. We would ask Nicola for many months
:41:02. > :41:05.now, the ?160 million should follow the pupil, not be give it up between
:41:06. > :41:09.local authorities and I'm glad that's finally changed. Funding and
:41:10. > :41:13.resources part of it. The other parties leadership in schools. There
:41:14. > :41:16.was a report out that showed the two best schools for Highers in Scotland
:41:17. > :41:21.are in Glasgow, one of them is Jordanhill, one is that Gaelic
:41:22. > :41:24.school. One is local authority, one is not local authority, it's not
:41:25. > :41:29.about the structure. They are both unique schools because they're
:41:30. > :41:33.headteachers are allowed to do things differently. They know what's
:41:34. > :41:38.best for their pupils, so what we want to see is a much greater
:41:39. > :41:41.empowerment of our teachers and school leaders and educational
:41:42. > :41:44.leaders, to be able to do things differently because they know better
:41:45. > :41:46.than anybody on this panel what is best for their children and their
:41:47. > :41:55.pupils. APPLAUSE
:41:56. > :41:58.David Coburn. Various sectors for Scotland, both Labour and
:41:59. > :42:02.Conservative, conspired together to destroy what we had in Scotland so
:42:03. > :42:06.the best schools we had, some of them went private and now people
:42:07. > :42:10.have to put in a great deal of effort to send their children to a
:42:11. > :42:14.school that puts many families in a very poor position. I believe we
:42:15. > :42:18.should have grammar schools, where every child should have the chance
:42:19. > :42:22.to get ahead, regardless of their financial situation, or where they
:42:23. > :42:26.are in society. I want to see grammar schools that go for
:42:27. > :42:30.excellence and want people to strive. I also want to the technical
:42:31. > :42:34.schools in the German model for those who are not academically
:42:35. > :42:39.inclined, a different way of looking at things. And pushed for time. We
:42:40. > :42:42.used to have the best education system in the world, it's been
:42:43. > :42:45.ruined by all this lot and we need something different. The
:42:46. > :42:50.Conservatives were just as bad at destroying grammar schools. All
:42:51. > :42:56.political parties that you should take seriously at least have
:42:57. > :43:01.recognised that there is, ... APPLAUSE
:43:02. > :43:05.There is more to deliver investment specifically enclosing the
:43:06. > :43:09.attainment gap and to credit Scottish Government with knowledge,
:43:10. > :43:13.it can be done better than it has so far so we are going to see progress
:43:14. > :43:18.on this in a new parliament. But my concern is that simply talking about
:43:19. > :43:22.that additional funding, about closing the attainment gap, if we're
:43:23. > :43:25.doing that at the same time as local councils are losing their revenue,
:43:26. > :43:29.then schools like every other public service will continue to be under
:43:30. > :43:33.pressure and they won't be able to get the maximum impact of that
:43:34. > :43:37.additional resource and I think schools also have coped with a great
:43:38. > :43:41.deal of change already. Schools and teachers that I've spoken to around
:43:42. > :43:44.the country when I've been out visiting local branches, they've
:43:45. > :43:47.been talking about the amount of change they've had to deal with, the
:43:48. > :43:51.amount of time pressure they've been under, to cope with that change.
:43:52. > :44:00.Schools and teachers need to feel supported to do what they are doing.
:44:01. > :44:04.Hang on a second... Not that standard light -- standardised
:44:05. > :44:07.testing should be the priority. I want to talk about more money in
:44:08. > :44:10.schools, you've been talking about investment quite a lot tonight. Is
:44:11. > :44:13.there an amount of additional revenue that you want to raise with
:44:14. > :44:17.whatever tax package you come up with during the election campaign?
:44:18. > :44:22.Do you have an amount of money that is needed for the investment that
:44:23. > :44:26.you are promising tonight? We will be publishing our detailed tax plans
:44:27. > :44:30.next week. How much do they need to raise in addition to what the
:44:31. > :44:34.Scottish Government? The point at local level is no, central
:44:35. > :44:39.government should not tell local government how much money they are
:44:40. > :44:41.allowed to race. In most European countries, a central government
:44:42. > :44:44.finance minister would find themselves in court and losing if
:44:45. > :44:48.they tried to tell local councils how much tax they are allowed to
:44:49. > :44:50.raise. I want to move onto another question now, but I should say that
:44:51. > :44:54.if you intend to cast a vote for the question now, but I should say that
:44:55. > :44:57.Scottish Parliamentary elections on the 5th of May, then you must be
:44:58. > :45:04.registered to so. The Electoral Commission,
:45:05. > :45:06.who have responsibility for elections, advise that it
:45:07. > :45:08.only takes a few minutes and like everything else these days
:45:09. > :45:11.it can be done online. The address to go to is at
:45:12. > :45:20.the bottom of your screen. Another question from Mark, a
:45:21. > :45:28.consultant and author. When push comes to shove, will you support
:45:29. > :45:31.fracking or not? Ruth Davidson. We believe local authorities should be
:45:32. > :45:35.able to look at the planning of this but we think we should have a mixed
:45:36. > :45:38.energy policy which involves nontraditional gas extraction. We
:45:39. > :45:42.have the best safety regime anywhere in the world, that we developed in
:45:43. > :45:45.the North Sea for getting gas out of the ground. It is a low carbon
:45:46. > :45:49.energy fund with 65,000 people that have just been laid off from the
:45:50. > :45:55.north-east, some of whom can be used in this. We think as long as you
:45:56. > :45:58.have the best safety rules in the world, it can help contribute to the
:45:59. > :46:02.energy mix, so yes. APPLAUSE Willie Rennie? No, absolutely, we
:46:03. > :46:06.need to start meeting our climate change targets. We have set some of
:46:07. > :46:11.the best climate change targets in the world. Some of the world beating
:46:12. > :46:15.climate change targets were made here. But in the last four years, we
:46:16. > :46:18.have never met them. What we should not be doing is taking more carbon
:46:19. > :46:23.out of the ground. We should be investing instead in advancing
:46:24. > :46:27.renewables, which Ruth Davidson's government has cut. Let's pause for
:46:28. > :46:31.a second because that is you well know is not what delegates to your
:46:32. > :46:33.conference said a couple of weeks ago. They voted to lift the current
:46:34. > :46:39.conference said a couple of weeks moratorium, the temporary ban on
:46:40. > :46:43.fracking will stop why the flip-flop? -- fracking. In our
:46:44. > :46:49.manifesto, it will be clear that we are not in favour of fracking. The
:46:50. > :46:54.party members must be pretty fed up with that. We can have a discussion
:46:55. > :46:59.about the internal machinations if you like... So it does not matter
:47:00. > :47:01.what they say? I'm quite happy to talk about that in another
:47:02. > :47:06.discussion but I want to talk about fracking. You have overruled them.
:47:07. > :47:11.I'm the leader of the party and I have set the policy and I don't want
:47:12. > :47:14.to advance carbon -based technologies, in energy generation,
:47:15. > :47:17.any more than we are doing just now. We have worked to invest in
:47:18. > :47:21.renewables and I want to meet the climate change targets. How can we
:47:22. > :47:24.trust you on that because the Lib Dems have a credibility problem
:47:25. > :47:28.since they went into coalition and ditched the pledge to scrap tuition
:47:29. > :47:34.fees. How do we know when you say, no fracking, you mean it? You gave
:47:35. > :47:41.it the green light in the energy Department. We're not going to that
:47:42. > :47:45.mistake again. -- to make that mistake again. We are prioritising
:47:46. > :47:50.renewable technologies. That is what we did in the Department of energy
:47:51. > :47:53.at Westminster. That is the priority for the Liberal Democrats because we
:47:54. > :47:58.want to meet our climate change obligations. David Coburn? Today,
:47:59. > :48:02.ladies and gentlemen, they closed long panic power station and out we
:48:03. > :48:05.have to rely on lots of renewable energies, some of which are not
:48:06. > :48:09.reliable. When the wind does not blow, how do we generate
:48:10. > :48:12.electricity? Wait for the lights to go off, not in the distant future.
:48:13. > :48:17.We have a lot of cheap coal underneath us and cheap oil. Let's
:48:18. > :48:22.use it. I don't see why we should have expensive energy which
:48:23. > :48:26.pensioners can't afford and steelmakers can't afford. No
:48:27. > :48:31.environmental health concerns? I think we should use the latest
:48:32. > :48:34.technology to clean the coal and also the oil. We should use high
:48:35. > :48:42.technology to make sure that those fossil fuels emit the least possible
:48:43. > :48:47.pollution. But we can't just simply switch off and leave the world. If
:48:48. > :48:50.you listen to Patrick... Let's listen to Patrick Parfrey if we get
:48:51. > :48:55.the chance. Who would like to hear from Patrick Harvie? CHEERING AND
:48:56. > :49:00.APPLAUSE Let me just put it this way...
:49:01. > :49:05.David, you have had you all go and I've introduced Patrick Harvie. The
:49:06. > :49:07.reality which governments around the world have finally come to
:49:08. > :49:11.acknowledge although they are not yet doing enough about it is that
:49:12. > :49:15.the fossil fuel age is coming to an end. You don't have to like that and
:49:16. > :49:17.you don't have to have chosen it. You don't have two of been
:49:18. > :49:20.you don't have to have chosen it. campaigning on this issue for years.
:49:21. > :49:25.It's a reality and the mantra of maximum fossil fuel extraction,
:49:26. > :49:30.which these parties all support, is not even keeping people's jobs safe.
:49:31. > :49:33.The challenge is to invest in the alternative. We have far more fossil
:49:34. > :49:37.fuel in the ground globally than we can ever afford to burn. We need to
:49:38. > :49:41.be investing in the long-term alternatives. Shouldn't we be
:49:42. > :49:46.looking at this as part of an energy mix, given that we're no longer
:49:47. > :49:48.burning coal and given that the North Sea industry as shared so many
:49:49. > :49:52.jobs, some of which might be able North Sea industry as shared so many
:49:53. > :49:58.pick up new work in the fracking industry? A great many of the people
:49:59. > :50:00.working in that area can see positive, long-lasting, secure
:50:01. > :50:05.futures from renewable energy and electricity storage. And also gas
:50:06. > :50:09.decommissioning. We're already at risk of losing oil and gas jobs to
:50:10. > :50:14.companies in other countries. We should be securing them here.
:50:15. > :50:18.Fracking is an absolute know from the Green party. But I do hope the
:50:19. > :50:22.Scottish .net will include say it too. We will come to the SNP and
:50:23. > :50:24.Labour in a moment but a few thoughts from the audience before we
:50:25. > :50:28.do that. The gentleman there? Surely thoughts from the audience before we
:50:29. > :50:33.an increasing number of countries across the world are banning
:50:34. > :50:36.fracking? Canada, France, Germany, Bulgaria, many US states. There's
:50:37. > :50:41.lots of research to show how damaging it is, not only the carbon
:50:42. > :50:45.gases that were already there, but also leakage of methane and lots of
:50:46. > :50:48.research on this. Surely people are running scared when Grangemouth say
:50:49. > :50:53.they might close down and you can see that as a loss of votes but the
:50:54. > :51:01.sensible way is surely to ban it and move on? APPLAUSE
:51:02. > :51:04.Kezia Dugdale. I think people at home will expect their politicians
:51:05. > :51:08.to follow the evidence and the science and the science tells us
:51:09. > :51:13.that the last thing we need, when we face the travesty of climate change,
:51:14. > :51:16.is another fossil fuel. Now we have the power in Scotland to ban
:51:17. > :51:23.fracking, the Labour Party would use it, no ifs, no buts, no fracking
:51:24. > :51:26.with Scottish Labour. Kezia Dugdale talks about following the evidence,
:51:27. > :51:32.which has shown that not only in America, as fracking reduced energy
:51:33. > :51:36.bills for homeowners by a half... What about climate change? It has
:51:37. > :51:40.also brought down carbon emissions because it is a much lower carbon
:51:41. > :51:42.technology than things like old. I think it is up to local authorities
:51:43. > :51:46.to decide on the own planning, whether to allow it or not but as
:51:47. > :51:47.long as we have the safety regime in place and as long as local people
:51:48. > :51:51.are happy with it happening, then place and as long as local people
:51:52. > :51:56.this can absolutely help wing down fuel poverty in this country. The
:51:57. > :52:00.other thing you rely is slashing the renewable energy budget in the UK.
:52:01. > :52:03.We have devastated the industry. I think that is a shamefully
:52:04. > :52:09.Conservatives after the good work we did in coalition to advance that.
:52:10. > :52:15.You too can finish this outside but I want to live on Nicola Sturgeon,
:52:16. > :52:18.given the concerns raised, why do you not allow a ban? Let mix by new
:52:19. > :52:21.position, there is no fracking allowed in Scotland might now
:52:22. > :52:25.because we put in place a moratorium. My view is unless it can
:52:26. > :52:29.be proved beyond any doubt that fracking does not harm the
:52:30. > :52:33.environment, does not harm our health, does not harm our
:52:34. > :52:37.communities, then to answer Mark's Western, no, fracking should not be
:52:38. > :52:44.allowed at all. Why we have got the moratorium in place -- Mark's
:52:45. > :52:47.question for the are you advertising for decommissioning jobs in an
:52:48. > :52:51.industry that does not exist? One of the things we are looking at in the
:52:52. > :52:54.moratorium is what would be the impact of decommissioning in terms
:52:55. > :52:58.of health and the environment? Why have you got a moratorium and you're
:52:59. > :53:01.trying to clean up the mess? We're trying to show how expensive and
:53:02. > :53:05.difficult it might be to do that but one of the reasons we have the
:53:06. > :53:07.monitor or -- moratorium is we have a situation where the UK Government
:53:08. > :53:16.have given licences to companies to track in Scotland. -- to attempt to
:53:17. > :53:19.fracking. We insisted on no more licences being granted until we get
:53:20. > :53:24.the power. But unless we have the solid evidence before we were to
:53:25. > :53:29.move to a ban, we would end up in court. So a big corporation would
:53:30. > :53:33.take you to court? I don't want to end up in court. I want to get the
:53:34. > :53:38.evidence in place to take decisions on that basis. There is no fracking
:53:39. > :53:41.allowed in Scotland right now and if there is any suggestion at all that
:53:42. > :53:44.it harms the environment, there will never be fracking allowed in
:53:45. > :53:50.Scotland as long as I have the power to do that. Time for one final
:53:51. > :53:57.question, which comes from Lynne Hunter, a company director.
:53:58. > :54:04.President-elect Donald Trump calls you. What is your opening gambit? If
:54:05. > :54:07.President-elect Donald Trump picks up the phone, what is your opening
:54:08. > :54:09.President-elect Donald Trump picks gamut from a Willie Rennie? Get off
:54:10. > :54:15.my phone! gamut from a Willie Rennie? Get off
:54:16. > :54:18.It is a worry that someone like that could be in charge of one of the
:54:19. > :54:21.most powerful countries in the world, when we have some unlike
:54:22. > :54:24.Barack Obama come all the alternative, Hillary Clinton. I
:54:25. > :54:27.think it could be a great country that we could achieve great things
:54:28. > :54:35.with, the US, but with Donald Trump, he would drag it right down. David
:54:36. > :54:39.Coburn? Well, Donald Trump seems to me, the idea of him becoming
:54:40. > :54:48.president... What about the idea of you becoming president? First
:54:49. > :54:52.Minister communing? The Trump makes Dr Strangelove, the movie about the
:54:53. > :54:58.nuclear war, seem more like fact and fiction. It is a very terrifying
:54:59. > :55:03.prospect. -- than fiction. I think he has some very strange ideas. What
:55:04. > :55:08.are you saying if he's on the phone? Come over for a game of golf and
:55:09. > :55:12.invest some money in Scotland. Patrick Harvie? He's not going to
:55:13. > :55:16.call me! I remain to this day the only person who has been a member of
:55:17. > :55:20.the Scottish Parliament to be formally cleared of blasphemy after
:55:21. > :55:24.a complaint put in by Donald Trump to the Parliamentary standards
:55:25. > :55:29.Commissioner about me. You are proud of that, by the sound of things? It
:55:30. > :55:32.gives me a little feeling of pride. So what if he does phone you, what
:55:33. > :55:38.would you say? I think my jaw would So what if he does phone you, what
:55:39. > :55:42.be on the floor. You would be speechless! Let us make one series
:55:43. > :55:46.point, let us unite in hope that the American people see through the
:55:47. > :55:47.races, xenophobic, misogynistic, bombastic rhetoric of this man.
:55:48. > :55:53.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
:55:54. > :55:57.-- racist. If Donald Trump phoned me, my question would be, can I have
:55:58. > :56:01.fries with that? I don't think he will have a job. Identity will be
:56:02. > :56:03.president of the United States because I think the people of that
:56:04. > :56:06.country have too much sense to let him anywhere near the White House.
:56:07. > :56:10.It is not such a far-fetched prospect that Donald Trump would
:56:11. > :56:13.phone who ever is the next First Minister because he dealt with Jack
:56:14. > :56:18.McConnell of Labour and Alex Salmond of the SNP as he was seeking to
:56:19. > :56:21.invest in Scotland. Kezia Dugdale, what would you say? Three simple
:56:22. > :56:28.words, stop preaching hate. what would you say? Three simple
:56:29. > :56:32.Was it a mistake of the Scottish dogma of whatever colour to get cosy
:56:33. > :56:35.with him? Look, I'm sure Nicola regrets it now but she was just
:56:36. > :56:40.trying to bring investment and jobs to Scotland, it's just a shame it
:56:41. > :56:44.had to be from a character like that. Given that I stripped Donald
:56:45. > :56:50.Trump of the global Scott state is that Jack McConnell gave him, I'm
:56:51. > :56:54.not sure he would be wanting to phone me in the highly unlikely
:56:55. > :56:57.event he becomes president. -- global Scot. I don't think it's
:56:58. > :57:00.going to happen because I think the good people of America will send
:57:01. > :57:03.Donald Trump packing and we should already was when that happens. What
:57:04. > :57:09.would your message be? "I'm On the already was when that happens. What
:57:10. > :57:11.other line, sorry". Thank you for those answers and all those
:57:12. > :57:14.contributions. We've come to the end of our debate,
:57:15. > :57:17.but of course, the campaign for your vote ahead of the May
:57:18. > :57:20.election has only just begun. We'll be hosting another Leaders'
:57:21. > :57:22.Debate just four days In between, we'll be covering every
:57:23. > :57:27.twist and turn on television, But my thanks to our panel
:57:28. > :57:36.and to our audience here in Glasgow.