0:00:00 > 0:00:06In four days' time we will elect a new Scottish Government, more
0:00:07 > 0:00:32powerful than ever before. It is make your mind up time.
0:00:33 > 0:00:49A very warm welcome to the historic surroundings of Hopetoun House. We
0:00:50 > 0:00:53will explore some of the major issues in the election campaign with
0:00:54 > 0:00:56the party leaders currently represented in the Scottish
0:00:57 > 0:01:00parliament. The questions tonight or come from the audience, representing
0:01:01 > 0:01:05a cross-section of opinion. Seeking election to be First Minister is
0:01:06 > 0:01:10leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. Challenging her is Kezia Dugdale,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15leader of the Scottish Labour Party. Bruce Davidson said she wants to
0:01:16 > 0:01:22provide strong position as leader of the Scottish Conservatives. Willie
0:01:23 > 0:01:24Rennie says this is the comeback collection for the Scottish Liberal
0:01:25 > 0:01:26Democrats. Also with high hopes of success, Patrick Harvie, co-convenor
0:01:27 > 0:01:38of the Scottish Greens. To do justice to the questions and
0:01:39 > 0:01:42the audience, we are hoping for a reasonably civilised debate to allow
0:01:43 > 0:01:49people to hear what panellists will save about them talking over each
0:01:50 > 0:01:58other. You're welcome to in at home. Let's go to our first question
0:01:59 > 0:02:04tonight, from Maureen, a lecturer. I would like to ask, what specific
0:02:05 > 0:02:08plans do have to create more jobs? Nicola Sturgeon, we have seen 20,000
0:02:09 > 0:02:14jobs lost in Scotland already. What plans do you have? We have a number
0:02:15 > 0:02:18of plans to grow the economy and boost employment. At the heart of
0:02:19 > 0:02:23our plans is continued support for small businesses, often seen as the
0:02:24 > 0:02:26engine of our economy. Over the past years the SNP has been in
0:02:27 > 0:02:30government, we have supported small-business bonus and we want now
0:02:31 > 0:02:34to maintain and extend the small business bonus to be lived more
0:02:35 > 0:02:38small businesses out of business rates altogether. We also intend to
0:02:39 > 0:02:48have a general review of business rates and we have a competitive
0:02:49 > 0:02:51system here that is encouraging companies to start up and to grow.
0:02:52 > 0:02:53We have been very successful in recent times in supporting company
0:02:54 > 0:02:58start-up. We want to support companies getting bigger because as
0:02:59 > 0:03:00they do that they will create more jobs. We want investment hubs in
0:03:01 > 0:03:04they do that they will create more different parts of the UK and to
0:03:05 > 0:03:07support companies to export more, there is strong evidence or
0:03:08 > 0:03:11international our companies are the more innovative they are and the
0:03:12 > 0:03:15more jobs they can support. We also want to use new powers coming to the
0:03:16 > 0:03:18Scottish Parliament to support young people, in particular, into
0:03:19 > 0:03:19employment with a new job scrum for young people who have been
0:03:20 > 0:03:28unemployed for more than six months. unemployed for more than six months.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33-- new jobs grant. Often a person finds difficulties with things like
0:03:34 > 0:03:36transport. That is in addition to maintaining college places,
0:03:37 > 0:03:41supporting more young people into university. We have had challenging
0:03:42 > 0:03:45jobs figures recently. For much of the last year employment levels have
0:03:46 > 0:03:49been above other parts of the UK. We have a record number of young people
0:03:50 > 0:03:54in our economy and society going into positive destinations. Much has
0:03:55 > 0:03:59been done and much more still to do and I looking forward with getting
0:04:00 > 0:04:06on with that if re-elected. We have a higher unemployment rate in
0:04:07 > 0:04:09Scotland as a whole. We have had industry leaders warning that hiking
0:04:10 > 0:04:14business leaders for larger businesses, medium and big
0:04:15 > 0:04:19businesses, will cost. The hiking business rates you have spoken about
0:04:20 > 0:04:21is a 3.4% increase for the largest businesses. To put that into
0:04:22 > 0:04:32is a 3.4% increase for the largest context, what we are talking
0:04:33 > 0:04:40about... It translates into a 3.4% increase. We are talking that RBS,
0:04:41 > 0:04:44Amazon, the BBC as well. It is 13% of businesses, the largest
0:04:45 > 0:04:47businesses. At a time when public service is our understrength and we
0:04:48 > 0:04:50are trying to invest more in public services, it is a fair and
0:04:51 > 0:04:54progressive thing to do, asking larger businesses depended bit more
0:04:55 > 0:05:03while lifting more small businesses out of business rates altogether. --
0:05:04 > 0:05:09to contribute a little bit more. What specific plans do you have to
0:05:10 > 0:05:13create new jobs? Then you take it back to not just the chamber of
0:05:14 > 0:05:17commerce comments last week but also the five trade groups that came at
0:05:18 > 0:05:20this week saying the SNP business policies have been damaging to
0:05:21 > 0:05:25business growth in Scotland. The talked about the large business
0:05:26 > 0:05:29supplement. That is not just a small increase, it is doubling it
0:05:30 > 0:05:31overnight without warning businesses whatsoever and making it
0:05:32 > 0:05:35uncompetitive against the rest of the UK. It is for one in seven of
0:05:36 > 0:05:40the whole businesses in Scotland. A large shop on a high street, an
0:05:41 > 0:05:46independent one, were subject to that. What we need is to encourage
0:05:47 > 0:05:51businesses to grow. You do not do that by making Scotland the highest
0:05:52 > 0:05:58taxed part of the UK. It is not fair on workers. It does not encourage
0:05:59 > 0:06:01jobs and opportunities. We want to make sure we never have taxes higher
0:06:02 > 0:06:08here than we have in the rest of the UK. We also need a business rates
0:06:09 > 0:06:13freeze. Under the SNP, business rates have gone up by 42%. They have
0:06:14 > 0:06:17been using them as a cash cow of the Government. No wonder businesses in
0:06:18 > 0:06:20Scotland are struggling and unemployment is going up. The other
0:06:21 > 0:06:28big issue that business is always the is skills. They do not have
0:06:29 > 0:06:32enough skilled people. The SNP has cut 152,000 college places. We want
0:06:33 > 0:06:38to have people with the skills to allow businesses to use -- to
0:06:39 > 0:06:42expand. That is putting ?60 million backing and increasing the number of
0:06:43 > 0:06:48apprenticeships so people can earn while they learn, people about Byrne
0:06:49 > 0:06:50on the job. We value the occasional education as much as an academic
0:06:51 > 0:07:07education in this country. We have heard serious warnings that
0:07:08 > 0:07:10jobs could be lost on the Clyde. You spoke to the Defence Secretary about
0:07:11 > 0:07:17this. Did he guarantee there would be no delay in those contracts? I
0:07:18 > 0:07:18spoke to him. I took all of these concerns to be Defence Secretary the
0:07:19 > 0:07:22weekend. We need to make sure the concerns to be Defence Secretary the
0:07:23 > 0:07:31contracts go ahead. He categorically assured me... There is no change.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36Hang on. Let's be clear. There is no delay. The strategic defence
0:07:37 > 0:07:42Security review was put out last year. It said it would build
0:07:43 > 0:07:49frigates. There has been no change. They now believe there was that cut
0:07:50 > 0:07:53in steel since December 20 17. There has been a delay of a year and a
0:07:54 > 0:07:54half and it is a betrayal of the people.
0:07:55 > 0:08:08APPLAUSE There is ?8 billion going into
0:08:09 > 0:08:11shipbuilding on the Clyde. We do not build complex warships outside of
0:08:12 > 0:08:22the UK. We need to move on with this build complex warships outside of
0:08:23 > 0:08:28question. Kezia Dugdale, the question was, what specific plans do
0:08:29 > 0:08:31you have to create more jobs? These are worrying times for the economy
0:08:32 > 0:08:34of Scotland. Have to prepare ourselves for the future. We need to
0:08:35 > 0:08:38invest in the skills and knowledge of people. When people come out of
0:08:39 > 0:08:44university and college, they are not going to have one job or one career,
0:08:45 > 0:08:51they may have for careers in a globalised world. We have to invest
0:08:52 > 0:08:56in skills and knowledge. In 1980, the only way to grow business is by
0:08:57 > 0:08:59cutting taxes. The one thing we are doing is investing in people. And I
0:09:00 > 0:09:04travelled the country and speak to businesses, they said the biggest
0:09:05 > 0:09:08challenge they face is productivity. If we invest in people, using the
0:09:09 > 0:09:13tax powers of Parliament to raise more money so we can have a
0:09:14 > 0:09:16world-class education system again, we can have those jobs in the future
0:09:17 > 0:09:21and bring them to Scotland. If we continue to cut education budgets
0:09:22 > 0:09:25like the SNP does, Scotland will get left behind. I do not want that for
0:09:26 > 0:09:29the young people. APPLAUSE
0:09:30 > 0:09:35Your manifesto said she would oppose the renewal of Trident submarines.
0:09:36 > 0:09:41It does not say how you protect the thousands of jobs that may be lost.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46We had a healthy, democratic progress to come to the conclusion
0:09:47 > 0:09:50we would oppose the renewal of Trident. We have to be honest and
0:09:51 > 0:09:53responsible enough to recognise there are thousands of people who
0:09:54 > 0:09:59rely on work at that base. Our position reflects the need for a
0:10:00 > 0:10:02defence diverse indication agency to identify the skills on the Clyde to
0:10:03 > 0:10:07try to find alternative jobs and pushing it is for people who work on
0:10:08 > 0:10:13the Clyde. You do not know what those jobs would be. They are around
0:10:14 > 0:10:17engineering, science and skills. It is honest and the right thing to do,
0:10:18 > 0:10:22to say, yes, there will be a lot of work. I have heard the SNP time have
0:10:23 > 0:10:26they would spend the money they would save from Trident but I have
0:10:27 > 0:10:32never heard them say how they would save the jobs affected by this
0:10:33 > 0:10:38proposal. Ayew saying until you can decide what to do, you would carry
0:10:39 > 0:10:42on with the programme? -- are you saying? We have proposed the renewal
0:10:43 > 0:10:48of Trident on the basis we can protect the jobs. The manifesto does
0:10:49 > 0:10:54not say how you can do that. We need to involve the unions, the industry,
0:10:55 > 0:10:58the sector, to work out which jobs we can help, engineers, scientific
0:10:59 > 0:11:01experts to secure alternative work. That reflects a healthy and
0:11:02 > 0:11:07democratic process within the Labour Party. We will come to the audience
0:11:08 > 0:11:09in a moment. Willie Rennie, what specific plans do you have to create
0:11:10 > 0:11:15in a moment. Willie Rennie, what more jobs? What we need to do is
0:11:16 > 0:11:20create a magnet in this country for businesses to invest. In order for
0:11:21 > 0:11:24businesses to invest, we need to invest in the skills and talents of
0:11:25 > 0:11:28the people who live here. That will be the magnet, for creating growth
0:11:29 > 0:11:34and opportunity for the future. We will not do that by cutting 152,000
0:11:35 > 0:11:38places from our colleges as the SNP has done. We need to get Scottish
0:11:39 > 0:11:45education back-up to being the best in the world again. Not about
0:11:46 > 0:11:48taxation. That will not drive up skills and talents of people in the
0:11:49 > 0:11:57country. They need to invest for the future, we need to invest for the
0:11:58 > 0:12:01future. To do that, we need to put a modest payment of income tax but I
0:12:02 > 0:12:05would take it back to the early years that if we can invest in the
0:12:06 > 0:12:09early years, we can create young people who will be drivers for the
0:12:10 > 0:12:13economy in the future. We will create opportunities for them and
0:12:14 > 0:12:19also drive forward the economy for the future. Maureen, my aunts who --
0:12:20 > 0:12:25answer is to invest in skills and talents of people who are here so we
0:12:26 > 0:12:35can create a Bible and economy for the future. -- a vibrant economy.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39Our education system needs investment. That is urgent. All our
0:12:40 > 0:12:43public senses need protection from the cuts coming and investment in
0:12:44 > 0:12:49the future. Healthy economy depends on good quality public service is, a
0:12:50 > 0:12:52healthy, well educated population and public funded infrastructure.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56There is a lot more we need to be doing with public investment as
0:12:57 > 0:13:00well. The arguments for and energy transition, making sure we are
0:13:01 > 0:13:03investing in high quality housing that is affordable for people to
0:13:04 > 0:13:09live in. Far too many people are priced out of housing at the moment.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13With public investment, not only in new-build but also energy
0:13:14 > 0:13:16efficiency, we could be creating a social and environmental benefit and
0:13:17 > 0:13:21a huge amount of productive work which many contractors around the
0:13:22 > 0:13:27country can be engaged in. In recent months, the SNP has agreed there
0:13:28 > 0:13:30will be an infrastructure priority. Sadly they cut the budget. The
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Greens will bring relentless pressure to bear for that kind of
0:13:35 > 0:13:40public investment. We also need to look beyond simply the question of
0:13:41 > 0:13:45the number of people in employment. If employment figures go down
0:13:46 > 0:13:49because more of them are locked in zero hours contracts on poverty
0:13:50 > 0:13:52wages, that is not a healthy and productive, decent economy. You need
0:13:53 > 0:13:58to be looking at the quality of employment. Things like employee
0:13:59 > 0:14:02ownership. Businesses who have roots in the community they serve. Where
0:14:03 > 0:14:04there is a genuine commitment to insuring that businesses stay active
0:14:05 > 0:14:10in that community, and said of a large, multinational deciding this
0:14:11 > 0:14:14bunch of shops is not productive anymore, so we will close them, or
0:14:15 > 0:14:18shifting investment so it will benefit the shareholders, or taking
0:14:19 > 0:14:22the profits and siphoning it off into tax havens. This is the whole
0:14:23 > 0:14:27structure of our economy, quality employment as well as quantity. The
0:14:28 > 0:14:31Greens will put forward investment plans for the future. I am
0:14:32 > 0:14:35astonished that the Scottish Greens is the only party genuinely talking
0:14:36 > 0:14:39about a transition away from our over reliance on fossil fuels. It is
0:14:40 > 0:14:43safe. We need to be looking at that. safe. We need to be looking at that.
0:14:44 > 0:14:53-- people's jobs safe. Thank you very much. Let willey
0:14:54 > 0:14:58Rennie come in. What are you going to say to those who'll lose their
0:14:59 > 0:15:01jobs in the North Sea? They are not going to be crying out for your kind
0:15:02 > 0:15:10of policies, they are going to be crying out for a job -- Willie
0:15:11 > 0:15:16Rennie. If I have my say, they won't be left in the same position as the
0:15:17 > 0:15:19coal fire plant. We should have been using the last decade of its
0:15:20 > 0:15:23operation to invest in an economic alternative for the community and
0:15:24 > 0:15:27the workers for the future. Instead, what happens - the announcement gets
0:15:28 > 0:15:31made, then we set up a Task Force. Then we think about what comes next.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34I don't want to leave Scotland and in particular those over exposed to
0:15:35 > 0:15:40the fossil fuel industry in that same limbo. We are already in North
0:15:41 > 0:15:42Sea. There's life in the North Sea and there are people in the
0:15:43 > 0:15:46north-east right now... APPLAUSE.
0:15:47 > 0:15:48I agree, there are people in the north-east. Let's take this
0:15:49 > 0:15:53opportunity to put it back to the audience. Have you been convinced by
0:15:54 > 0:15:57what you have heard from the panel there, to the questioner? There are
0:15:58 > 0:16:00a lot of young people that need jobs now. I think it can't always be a
0:16:01 > 0:16:05plan for the future, I think you have to deal with the situation as
0:16:06 > 0:16:08it is. I absolutely agree you need plan force the future and Patrick's
0:16:09 > 0:16:12absolutely right, you don't wait until something goes wrong then set
0:16:13 > 0:16:18up how to fix it. I certainly would like to see people move away from
0:16:19 > 0:16:23the kind of zero hours contracts, the type of volunteering that has to
0:16:24 > 0:16:27go on now for long periods of time before people could do that to try
0:16:28 > 0:16:31and up their skills. Now you have more and more young people who are,
0:16:32 > 0:16:34for years, trying to volunteer in order to get the skills in order to
0:16:35 > 0:16:37be able to progress. I would like to see those tackled.
0:16:38 > 0:16:38APPLAUSE. Anybody National Institute for
0:16:39 > 0:16:43Clinical Excellence the audience want to come in on that? A young man
0:16:44 > 0:16:47at the back? I'm a welder, I served my time on the Clyde and worked in
0:16:48 > 0:16:52the shipyard and I would like to ask, for people like me, there's not
0:16:53 > 0:16:57much work there. Our company is not competitive, we have no foreign
0:16:58 > 0:17:01contracts. What would the parties do to attract that kind of work? We'll
0:17:02 > 0:17:06have to run quickly through them to ask that? Kezia Dugdale? Ruth's told
0:17:07 > 0:17:10a porky tonight, there is an ask that? Kezia Dugdale? Ruth's told
0:17:11 > 0:17:1318-month delay on the Clyde and has to be reversed to honour the promise
0:17:14 > 0:17:17made to the people in the referendum.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21What we need to do absolutely is not make sure that the only contracts
0:17:22 > 0:17:25BAE has are contracts from the Iran. They are important and have to come
0:17:26 > 0:17:30through, but we have got to be able to use the skills to export that
0:17:31 > 0:17:34outside. One of the things that BAE systems have done is set up that
0:17:35 > 0:17:42centre of excellence. It means they are able to sell to other countries.
0:17:43 > 0:17:50What we need to do is make sure that you have work that's not just Iran
0:17:51 > 0:17:55contracts. -- Royal Navy contracts. It's one of the things that's not
0:17:56 > 0:17:58going ahead now. I was in the shipyard on Monday talking to the
0:17:59 > 0:18:01unions. The reason they are worried about a lack of work for you and
0:18:02 > 0:18:05your colleagues is because of the delay in the contract that was
0:18:06 > 0:18:10promised to the workers on the Clyde so the first thing that should be
0:18:11 > 0:18:16done, that promise should be upheld and that work should start. But we
0:18:17 > 0:18:20need it now, not later. Nothing's changed. You have been shameful to
0:18:21 > 0:18:29try and scare the workers on this, Nicola. If If you had your way 14
0:18:30 > 0:18:34months ago, these frig greats... I challenge you to go into the
0:18:35 > 0:18:39shipyard tomorrow and sit down. Two months ago - go into the yard and
0:18:40 > 0:18:46speak to the unions who raised the concerns. They are furious that
0:18:47 > 0:18:49promised made are not being kept. The OPVs are not enough. Fulfil the
0:18:50 > 0:18:53contract now, anything less than that is a betrayal of the shipyard
0:18:54 > 0:18:58workers. APPLAUSE.
0:18:59 > 0:19:06Two aircraft carriers delivered, eight frig greats. We have to hear
0:19:07 > 0:19:11from... His job is on the line. How much would you put in?
0:19:12 > 0:19:20ALL SPEAK AT This is about the promises you made.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25The chap up there who asked the question, his job is on the line
0:19:26 > 0:19:30because the Government you support, the Tory party, your party's
0:19:31 > 0:19:35betrayed the promises made. I don't think the workers on the
0:19:36 > 0:19:38Clyde will be satisfied with this squabbling about the future of their
0:19:39 > 0:19:44jobs. What they want to know is how we are going to diversify into new
0:19:45 > 0:19:49sectors, that's exactly the question that was asked. A half decent job
0:19:50 > 0:19:52has been done of stretching out into the renewable sector. That's the
0:19:53 > 0:19:56kind of opportunities we should be trying to get towards and we won't
0:19:57 > 0:19:59get that if the Conservatives at Westminster continue to cut the
0:20:00 > 0:20:03support for the renewable energy sector. We won't even get that
0:20:04 > 0:20:07diversification, so we need to get the assurance about the contracts
0:20:08 > 0:20:10for the future and I don't think Ruth's quite telling the truth. The
0:20:11 > 0:20:14second thing we need to do is to make sure we diversify into new
0:20:15 > 0:20:18sectors and we knead the support from Government to make that happen.
0:20:19 > 0:20:24Maybe you shouldn't have done it in the first place. Patrick Harvie. We
0:20:25 > 0:20:28need toe move on to our next question from Brody McLaren, a
0:20:29 > 0:20:32full-time student. If in the future the majority of Scots are in favour
0:20:33 > 0:20:38of a second independence referendum, who are politicians to deny this?
0:20:39 > 0:20:41Kezia Dugdale, would you deny Scotland a chance to vote on
0:20:42 > 0:20:45independence again? I believed the First Minister when she said this
0:20:46 > 0:20:49was a once in a lifetime or generation opportunity. Not even 20
0:20:50 > 0:20:50months have passed since we came together to vote in the referendum.
0:20:51 > 0:21:04APPLAUSE. Can I just say something else about
0:21:05 > 0:21:08that. In 2011, Nicola's manifesto page 1 in 15 words made a very clear
0:21:09 > 0:21:14commitment to having a referendum in that Parliament. This time around in
0:21:15 > 0:21:22your manifesto Nicola, it's page 24 and you take 210 words to say maybe
0:21:23 > 0:21:26yes, maybe no, I'm not sure, there is not a mandate. You are in two
0:21:27 > 0:21:29different papers today saying yes we might have one and another saying no
0:21:30 > 0:21:32we won't, trying to pull the wool over people's eyes in Scotland when
0:21:33 > 0:21:33so many people just want to move on from the referendum of the past.
0:21:34 > 0:21:49APPLAUSE. We have substantial new powers and
0:21:50 > 0:21:55tax come to the Scottish Parliament. Wouldn't it be great if we used
0:21:56 > 0:21:59those for the future, creating the Scotland we want to see instead of
0:22:00 > 0:22:06revisiting the past arguments. APPLAUSE.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12You've made it very clear you don't support another referendum. If it
0:22:13 > 0:22:18was clear the majority of the country wanted one, would it be
0:22:19 > 0:22:22right to deny that vote? I don't believe Nicola is seeking another
0:22:23 > 0:22:26referendum, she's saying trust the pollsters. If we did, Ed Miliband
0:22:27 > 0:22:30would be Prime Minister. This is not way to govern the country. But the
0:22:31 > 0:22:34question specifically is, if some change in circumstance meant that
0:22:35 > 0:22:36the majority of Scots clearly indicated they wanted another vote,
0:22:37 > 0:22:41would you try and stand in the way of that vote? Our manifesto has a
0:22:42 > 0:22:44clear statement in it, we oppose a referendum in the next lifetime of
0:22:45 > 0:22:47the Parliament because we believe the democratic will of the people
0:22:48 > 0:22:49was expressed on #189 September and should be respected.
0:22:50 > 0:22:57APPLAUSE. APPLAUSE.
0:22:58 > 0:23:00-- on 18th September. Nicola Sturgeon, there isn't a
0:23:01 > 0:23:04definite commitment to another referendum in your manifesto, but
0:23:05 > 0:23:06you are quoted today as saying you think one will happen, independence
0:23:07 > 0:23:10will happen while you are First Minister? For me this is rooted in
0:23:11 > 0:23:15democracy and public opinion. Let me be frank about it. I'd back
0:23:16 > 0:23:20independence, I think it's the best future for our country. But if those
0:23:21 > 0:23:23who support independence cannot persuade people that we didn't
0:23:24 > 0:23:26persuade in 2014 if independence doesn't become the preferred option,
0:23:27 > 0:23:30we'll not have earned the right to ask that question again. I'm very
0:23:31 > 0:23:34clear about that, but on the other hand, if people do change their
0:23:35 > 0:23:38minds and what we are seeing from the Tory Government right now, the
0:23:39 > 0:23:41prospect of being ripped out of the European Union against our will, if
0:23:42 > 0:23:45people do change their minds and there is clear and sustained
0:23:46 > 0:23:49evidence that independence has become the preference of a majority
0:23:50 > 0:23:53of people in Scotland, then to answer the question that was asked
0:23:54 > 0:23:57directly by Brody, then no politician has the right to stand in
0:23:58 > 0:24:01the way of the democratic wishes of the Scottish people.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07That is the That is the
0:24:08 > 0:24:11- position I'm putting forward. I think the question for other
0:24:12 > 0:24:14politicians on this platform, what is it they think gives them the
0:24:15 > 0:24:17right to stand in the way of a majority? Scotland will only become
0:24:18 > 0:24:21independent if a majority backs that. That is democracy. None of us
0:24:22 > 0:24:29should fear the democratic wishes of the people of this country.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32APPLAUSE. Nicola Sturgeon you often say you
0:24:33 > 0:24:36would consider another referendum if there is clear evidence the majority
0:24:37 > 0:24:42of Scots wanted it, that is another way of saying I'll only hold another
0:24:43 > 0:24:46vote if I know I'm going to win it. I am supporting What is respectful
0:24:47 > 0:24:49about that... I believe in something. You know, Ed Miliband
0:24:50 > 0:24:53didn't win the general election, I don't expect Kezia Dugdale to give
0:24:54 > 0:24:57up campaigning for a Labour Government, nibble something, I have
0:24:58 > 0:25:00convictions, principles, I will continue to try to persuade people
0:25:01 > 0:25:03of those. Whether I succeed or not will be down to the strength of the
0:25:04 > 0:25:06arguments I put forward and ultimately down to the wishes of the
0:25:07 > 0:25:12Scottish people. We are all democrats. What on earth is it about
0:25:13 > 0:25:16the democratic will that some people on this platform seem to find so
0:25:17 > 0:25:22frightening? APPLAUSE.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26Willie Rennie should politicians be able to deny another referendum? I
0:25:27 > 0:25:32respect your support of the referendum, I do respect it. But my
0:25:33 > 0:25:35appeal to you, Brody, is to use the next five years to focus on
0:25:36 > 0:25:40something I think we have neglected in the last five years. I think we
0:25:41 > 0:25:44have neglected many areas like our education system, our mental Health
0:25:45 > 0:25:47Services, that are way below par, the fact we have missed our climate
0:25:48 > 0:25:49change targets for the last four years in a row. I think our civil
0:25:50 > 0:25:53change targets for the last four liberties have been undermined too.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57I want to focus on making Scotland one of the best countries in the
0:25:58 > 0:26:00world again. Therefore in order to do that, would you deny another
0:26:01 > 0:26:01world again. Therefore in order to referendum? We will not achieve that
0:26:02 > 0:26:05by having a ground hog day debate referendum? We will not achieve that
0:26:06 > 0:26:08about independence. If we keep on disrespecting the result, we will
0:26:09 > 0:26:17not achieve that better Scotland. APPLAUSE.
0:26:18 > 0:26:23Willie for much of the last five years, your party were propping up
0:26:24 > 0:26:26We had one of the best democratic experiences in our lifetime. We
0:26:27 > 0:26:29celebrated it constantly. Now as soon as it's over and they don't get
0:26:30 > 0:26:35the result they want, they want to do it all over again. Do they not
0:26:36 > 0:26:40get the message - we want to stay in 2 t UK, respect the result, I would
0:26:41 > 0:26:41go as far as saying you are antidemocratic.
0:26:42 > 0:26:56CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Ruth, hold on a second, we'll bring
0:26:57 > 0:27:00in Patrick Harvie, would you like to see another referendum in the
0:27:01 > 0:27:03lifetime of this Parliament? Like others, I don't know when another
0:27:04 > 0:27:07referendum will be had but Scottish Greens and myself put forward a
0:27:08 > 0:27:11distinctive argument for a yes vote in 2014 and, if there's another
0:27:12 > 0:27:14referendum, we'll do it again. I share the view that this would be
0:27:15 > 0:27:18the best choice for Scotland, the best opportunity fors to take our
0:27:19 > 0:27:24economy and society in a new fairer and better direction. But I want to
0:27:25 > 0:27:28pick Upton phrase that's been used "we have to respect the result of
0:27:29 > 0:27:32the referendum". Absolutely we should respect the result of the
0:27:33 > 0:27:35referendum and when the result was in, we didn't immediately demand to
0:27:36 > 0:27:39start appealing for an independent settlement. That would have happened
0:27:40 > 0:27:42if the result went the other way. Respecting the result means
0:27:43 > 0:27:47respecting the fact that a substantial number of us Scottish
0:27:48 > 0:27:50voters did vote for independence. Seeing the result and respecting the
0:27:51 > 0:27:53result doesn't mean we have to crawl away and shut up about it any more.
0:27:54 > 0:27:55The opportunity to continue to debate this is still there and,
0:27:56 > 0:28:00although there are some who feel debate this is still there and,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03utterly opposed to the idea of another referendum ever, and some
0:28:04 > 0:28:06who can't wait to get campaigning for it, I think the great mass of
0:28:07 > 0:28:12people out there in Scotland are quite capable of having this debate
0:28:13 > 0:28:16in a mature way, not being afraid of it, not feeling pushed into it
0:28:17 > 0:28:19either, but knowing we'll ultimately make this decision in the only
0:28:20 > 0:28:25democratic way by the people in a reference dull. -- referendum. There
0:28:26 > 0:28:28is a great deal we need to do with the powers of the Scottish
0:28:29 > 0:28:33Parliament and I feel if we are bold in our use of the powers, if we do
0:28:34 > 0:28:37sometimes push the Scottish Government out of its comfort zone
0:28:38 > 0:28:42to be more ambitious, we may do a great deal to convince those many
0:28:43 > 0:28:46people who saw the attractions of independence fought long and hard
0:28:47 > 0:28:48but ended up with no, we may do a great deal to convince them that
0:28:49 > 0:28:51independence is still a positive opportunity for Scotland.
0:28:52 > 0:29:01APPLAUSE. All right. Ruth Davidson, you are
0:29:02 > 0:29:05campaigning on a slogan of no to a second referendum. Does that mean if
0:29:06 > 0:29:10the Scottish Government wanted to call one, do you think the Prime
0:29:11 > 0:29:13Minister should prevent it? The former Deputy Leader is saying there
0:29:14 > 0:29:15is no mandate for it in Nicola Sturgeon's manifesto to call a
0:29:16 > 0:29:19second referendum. Nicola Sturgeon made a big speech and talks about
0:29:20 > 0:29:24how she's got convictions and principles but I would suggest that
0:29:25 > 0:29:25as First Minister she also has responsibilities and her
0:29:26 > 0:29:29responsibilities are to all of Scotland, not just to the SNP. Her
0:29:30 > 0:29:36responsibilities... APPLAUSE.
0:29:37 > 0:29:43That means she should not be keeping this wound open. It is not good for
0:29:44 > 0:29:52our country or the economy or encouraging jobs and growth and all
0:29:53 > 0:30:05of the things we want to sleep she made a promise, she signed a binding
0:30:06 > 0:30:10agreement, that she would respect -- that it was once in a generation. It
0:30:11 > 0:30:14is not up to her to see an opinion poll and say we are putting this
0:30:15 > 0:30:17country through it once more. It is not on.
0:30:18 > 0:30:28Unsurprisingly, a lot of our audience are keen to join in the
0:30:29 > 0:30:36debate. The stop the lady in the front row. There is a lot of talk
0:30:37 > 0:30:41about respecting the results. Do you know what? Within 48 hours of that
0:30:42 > 0:30:45last independence referendum, the country changed and they realised
0:30:46 > 0:30:50they had been duped by Westminster. As far as I am concerned you need to
0:30:51 > 0:30:55respect the change of the people who decided they were not happy with all
0:30:56 > 0:31:01of the things you then backtracked on and promised Scotland. We will
0:31:02 > 0:31:08take a couple more from the audience, a young man here. Willie
0:31:09 > 0:31:12talks about creating opportunities in the next five years. What I want
0:31:13 > 0:31:16to know is, what are the plans of all of the candidates for creating
0:31:17 > 0:31:22opportunities for the young, homeless in Scotland? We will stick
0:31:23 > 0:31:26on the subject of the second referendum for now. The gentleman in
0:31:27 > 0:31:35a dark jacket with his hand in the air. When Ayew going to start to
0:31:36 > 0:31:45work together? -- when are you going to start to work together? One more
0:31:46 > 0:31:53contribution from the audience. At the back. I do not understand the
0:31:54 > 0:32:00presumption that the manifesto is a bedrock of democracy. The
0:32:01 > 0:32:03Conservatives and there is no mention in the general election
0:32:04 > 0:32:06manifesto of turning schools into academies but they seem happy to go
0:32:07 > 0:32:15ahead with that. The manifesto is a real red herring that people move
0:32:16 > 0:32:24away from. Do you need to make a commitment? I absolutely think you
0:32:25 > 0:32:27do. That is why there was a big discussion, the Edinburgh agreement,
0:32:28 > 0:32:30a bilateral agreement between the Scottish and UK Government with the
0:32:31 > 0:32:35signature of Nicola Sturgeon on it saying she would respect the
0:32:36 > 0:32:38referendum result. I come back to the gentleman in the centre saying,
0:32:39 > 0:32:42what shall we do to bring the country back together. There is one
0:32:43 > 0:32:43person more than anyone else on the stage who has the ability to do
0:32:44 > 0:32:49that. She's standing on my right. Or stage who has the ability to do
0:32:50 > 0:32:56she has to say is, let's not restart a campaign say I hold the power and
0:32:57 > 0:33:00reopen this, let's give the country the stability and security needs to
0:33:01 > 0:33:03move on and say, I am taking it off the table, at least for the next
0:33:04 > 0:33:11Parliament. APPLAUSE
0:33:12 > 0:33:18If there is no change in opinion, if Scotland does not get ripped out of
0:33:19 > 0:33:22the European Union against our will, it will be off the table. I am not
0:33:23 > 0:33:26the European Union against our will, proposing a second referendum
0:33:27 > 0:33:29tomorrow. I am talking about the Scottish parliament having the right
0:33:30 > 0:33:33to propose a second referendum if it becomes clear the majority of people
0:33:34 > 0:33:40in Scotland want independence. It would have to be a majority of
0:33:41 > 0:33:45people who want it. You are the one person who decides when that is. The
0:33:46 > 0:33:50Scottish parliament would have to legislate for that. What I struggle
0:33:51 > 0:33:54with is not that people disagree with me about independence. I
0:33:55 > 0:33:57respect that. I struggle with politicians who have difficulty
0:33:58 > 0:34:02saying if the majority of people in Scotland want something then they
0:34:03 > 0:34:07have the right to stand in the way of that. That is undemocratic. The
0:34:08 > 0:34:09referendum that is creating uncertainty in the business
0:34:10 > 0:34:13community right now is the referendum that your party is making
0:34:14 > 0:34:16as have on the European Union. The prospect of Scotland staying in the
0:34:17 > 0:34:27European Union is something I think is outrageous. Do you think there
0:34:28 > 0:34:32should be a mandate if it is not in the manifesto? I want to address the
0:34:33 > 0:34:35question about how we move on, how we bring Scotland back together,
0:34:36 > 0:34:39people who voted yes and no. Of greatest myth of the referendum was
0:34:40 > 0:34:45that independence was the only way to change things. I believe that the
0:34:46 > 0:34:52power is coming to Parliament so we can tax the rich, stop cuts to the
0:34:53 > 0:34:56public services in the NHS, allows to make different choices from the
0:34:57 > 0:35:00Tories down south. We have those powers and I am appealing directly
0:35:01 > 0:35:05to people who voted yes and no, if you share my vision of a Scotland
0:35:06 > 0:35:10that is fairer and more equal, let's use those powers where every Scot
0:35:11 > 0:35:15can fulfil their potential. APPLAUSE
0:35:16 > 0:35:29We have to move onto another question, I am afraid, in which will
0:35:30 > 0:35:33definitely your say. With ever-growing austerity and an ageing
0:35:34 > 0:35:37population and an ever increasing reliance on the NHS and its
0:35:38 > 0:35:45services, how would you protect and continue to protect the health
0:35:46 > 0:35:49budget? Ruth Davidson. We put an NHS guarantee in our manifesto saying
0:35:50 > 0:35:54what we wanted to do was increase funding to the NHS, either by 2% or
0:35:55 > 0:35:58inflation or by the Barnett consequential is, whichever is the
0:35:59 > 0:36:02highest. We want to do that every year for the next five years. That
0:36:03 > 0:36:08is ?1 billion of money into the NHS. What we have seen in this country,
0:36:09 > 0:36:15in Scotland, between 2010 and 2015, it went up by 1%. We want to make
0:36:16 > 0:36:25sure every penny is passed on board we want to change what we do in the
0:36:26 > 0:36:30NHS as well. -- passed on. We have seen the proportion of the NHS
0:36:31 > 0:36:33budget has gone down a lot over the last few years and the SNP. The
0:36:34 > 0:36:38other thing is, let's try to take some of the weight of our GPs. You
0:36:39 > 0:36:43say you are a pharmacist. One thing that works in Scotland is the minor
0:36:44 > 0:36:47ailments service. People do not know about it. That is where you can go
0:36:48 > 0:36:50straight to a pharmacist to get help, rather than having GPs
0:36:51 > 0:36:54surgeries overloaded. We know there is an issue with appointments you
0:36:55 > 0:37:01want to put an extra ?10 million into that to help take some of that
0:37:02 > 0:37:05of the GP surgery. You also want to reintroduce charges for
0:37:06 > 0:37:11prescriptions for the NHS. We want that for the 10% of prescriptions
0:37:12 > 0:37:15where people used to pay. We were still keep it free for people like
0:37:16 > 0:37:19pregnant women and those with long-term conditions who have to go
0:37:20 > 0:37:24back again and again. It is not OK for politicians like us to get free
0:37:25 > 0:37:29painkillers when someone lying on a cancer ward cannot get a drug that
0:37:30 > 0:37:33they could get some else. That would be worth about ?65 million year. It
0:37:34 > 0:37:37would help staffing and help with drugs availability we do not have in
0:37:38 > 0:37:45Scotland. APPLAUSE
0:37:46 > 0:37:52Do you agree the better off should pay for their prescriptions? I agree
0:37:53 > 0:37:56with the National health service free at the point of use on a
0:37:57 > 0:38:01collective basis. I should pay more because I have a higher income. I
0:38:02 > 0:38:06should pay that through progressive income tax. That is how we pay for
0:38:07 > 0:38:09things collectively which make us better off collectively as a
0:38:10 > 0:38:15society. If we reintroduce prescription charges, it is not only
0:38:16 > 0:38:19the case that delivering that system probably would say very little
0:38:20 > 0:38:23money. It also continues this notion that there are those who take from
0:38:24 > 0:38:31public services and those who contribute. The case for
0:38:32 > 0:38:35universalism is really strong. What would be next? Charges to visit your
0:38:36 > 0:38:40GP and charges for this and that in the health service. I also want to
0:38:41 > 0:38:44challenge another bit of language we heard about protecting NHS funding
0:38:45 > 0:38:51within the envelope. Within the envelope. That means, at the same
0:38:52 > 0:38:57time as cutting everything else. From the UK Government and applying
0:38:58 > 0:39:01those. If we just give the Barnett consequential to the health service,
0:39:02 > 0:39:03where we are trying to do health and social care integration of local
0:39:04 > 0:39:07councils are having budget squeeze, the system will not work. Public
0:39:08 > 0:39:13services will work well together if we protect them all. By returning to
0:39:14 > 0:39:17progressive taxation, ensuring that SNP 's like us on generous salaries
0:39:18 > 0:39:22pay more in tax because we can afford to do that while saving money
0:39:23 > 0:39:25for everyone on a lower income, we can protect all of our public
0:39:26 > 0:39:32services are not squeeze local councils who deliver care services
0:39:33 > 0:39:37and allow with the NHS. That is what we need to do in Scotland and we are
0:39:38 > 0:39:39every bit capable of so doing if we ensure the Scottish Government is
0:39:40 > 0:39:42under pressure for progressive taxation and raising revenue from
0:39:43 > 0:39:44those who can afford to pay for vital public services.
0:39:45 > 0:39:55APPLAUSE GP services have been in the news
0:39:56 > 0:39:59this week. There was something of a crisis in general practice. Willie
0:40:00 > 0:40:03Rennie, you have an interesting promise manifesto that there would
0:40:04 > 0:40:07be a mental health specialist available in every GP surgery. When
0:40:08 > 0:40:13they are struggling to find enough GPs, how would you intend to do
0:40:14 > 0:40:17that? They are going to be 740 GPs short by the end of the decade. We
0:40:18 > 0:40:21that? They are going to be 740 GPs have young people, all the way from
0:40:22 > 0:40:25teenagers to old age who are waiting for months on end to get mental
0:40:26 > 0:40:29health treatment. You can just imagine waiting for mental health
0:40:30 > 0:40:33treatment when it is urgent and you have to wait for months. Those are
0:40:34 > 0:40:37the two cornerstones we believe we should be investing in the NHS. We
0:40:38 > 0:40:44will give that guarantee for the NHS. We need to make sure that we
0:40:45 > 0:40:47get the proper funding going through. Inflation busting, we need
0:40:48 > 0:40:51to make sure it is going through, all the Barnett consequential 's are
0:40:52 > 0:40:57passed on. At the corner of this we need mental health professionals at
0:40:58 > 0:41:02all levels. We need them in primary care, and with the police as well.
0:41:03 > 0:41:07When the police are going around and coming across a crisis situations,
0:41:08 > 0:41:14they can give immediate help at that point. The most important of all is
0:41:15 > 0:41:21making sure that young people and adolescents get proper support. Do
0:41:22 > 0:41:24you know, there are no mental health beds north of Dundee? That is a
0:41:25 > 0:41:28disgrace. People should not have to travel for a very long time when you
0:41:29 > 0:41:33are so young and you need urgent treatment. For all of those reasons,
0:41:34 > 0:41:36we need to guarantee funding for the NHS and make sure the GP service is
0:41:37 > 0:41:39properly staffed and we have mental health support that we need.
0:41:40 > 0:41:52APPLAUSE Nicola Sturgeon, I assume you agree
0:41:53 > 0:41:55there is a crisis with GPs. One in ten GPs say they intend to leave
0:41:56 > 0:42:01within the next year. What can you do about that? I will come onto GPs
0:42:02 > 0:42:07in the course of my answer. It is a very important question. Investment
0:42:08 > 0:42:14reform are two watchwords of our policy. We are investing more in the
0:42:15 > 0:42:19national Health Service and any other party. We are promising to
0:42:20 > 0:42:22increase the health budget by ?500 million more than inflation over the
0:42:23 > 0:42:26next Parliament. That would be paid for by not giving higher rate
0:42:27 > 0:42:31taxpayers the tax cuts proposed by George Osborne. We would invest in
0:42:32 > 0:42:34our health service. As your question alluded to, simply investing more
0:42:35 > 0:42:38money in the health service given the ageing population will not be
0:42:39 > 0:42:43enough in itself was a need to change the way the health service
0:42:44 > 0:42:49delivers care. We will also establish treatment centres to deal
0:42:50 > 0:42:53with hip replacements and cataract operations which come with an ageing
0:42:54 > 0:42:58population. We will spend an increasing proportion of the health
0:42:59 > 0:43:02budget each and every year. We will put more pharmacists into GP
0:43:03 > 0:43:05surgeries and increased training numbers for GPs, also the share of
0:43:06 > 0:43:11the budget going into social care and mental health. I agree with a
0:43:12 > 0:43:16lot of what Willie has said about mental health. The final point I
0:43:17 > 0:43:21would make is on prescription charges. Ruth would have you believe
0:43:22 > 0:43:25that only rich people would pay prescription charges. What she is
0:43:26 > 0:43:30actually proposing is restoring a system of prescription charges that
0:43:31 > 0:43:34charges people earning as little as ?16,000 a year. That is the system
0:43:35 > 0:43:38we scrapped. Putting prescription charges back for the conditions that
0:43:39 > 0:43:43were not exempt before. Cancer patients would have to pay. People
0:43:44 > 0:43:53with Parkinson's and asthma. That is what she is proposing. Patrick
0:43:54 > 0:43:57Harvie is absolutely right. Are the -- either we have a health care
0:43:58 > 0:44:02system free at the point of need or we do not. I think we should protect
0:44:03 > 0:44:09the founding values of our health service, as well as securing budget.
0:44:10 > 0:44:17Previous leaders of the Scottish Labour Party have talked about
0:44:18 > 0:44:21introducing free prescription charges, but you have argued against
0:44:22 > 0:44:23that? We have fair and progressive tax policies much like Patrick. We
0:44:24 > 0:44:27think people who earn a bit more should pay a bit more to protect the
0:44:28 > 0:44:30things we all value like the fact that the NHS is free at the point of
0:44:31 > 0:44:34use. The NHS was the Labour Party's proudest achievement and we want to
0:44:35 > 0:44:40protect it for the future. Our spending plan force the NHS is
0:44:41 > 0:44:44the... No they are not Kezia. Because to have tax choices we have
0:44:45 > 0:44:49made. But here's the thing. As well as investing in the NHS we have to
0:44:50 > 0:44:53invest in a health care society. The NHS doesn't work in globalised
0:44:54 > 0:44:57isolation, the cuts, austerity we are seeing for disabled people,
0:44:58 > 0:45:01people in communities, elderly, vulnerable, put greater demands our
0:45:02 > 0:45:04on our NHS so we have to stop the cuts in order to protect the NHS and
0:45:05 > 0:45:08ask those with the broadest shoulders to pay a bit more tax so
0:45:09 > 0:45:16we can protect the things we love like our National Health Service.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19Let me pick up on one thing. We have discussed the crisis of GPs that
0:45:20 > 0:45:23there is a shortage. You are promising patients will be able to
0:45:24 > 0:45:33have an appointment in a surgery within 48-hours and they can see an
0:45:34 > 0:45:37actual GP if they want. How do you propose to implement that? We have
0:45:38 > 0:45:40never said it would be a doctor. If you are living with diabetes for
0:45:41 > 0:45:44example, you need to see a specialist nurse. Perhaps you have
0:45:45 > 0:45:48got ligament problems or problems with joints, you need to see a
0:45:49 > 0:45:53physiotherapist, it's not always the GP you would need to see, we'd
0:45:54 > 0:45:59invest more in a minor ailment service. They'll ask to see the GP
0:46:00 > 0:46:02above the nurse. You say they can see them and you say it will happen
0:46:03 > 0:46:07above the nurse. You say they can in 48-hours? It would be ?100
0:46:08 > 0:46:09million per annum, we are able to make that financial commitment
0:46:10 > 0:46:12because of the spending plans we have put forward. The Labour Party
0:46:13 > 0:46:17has an anti-skirt pledge. We have said we can raise enough money to
0:46:18 > 0:46:24stop further cuts to Public Services by raising ?1.2 billion a year in
0:46:25 > 0:46:32extra tax -- anti-austerity pledge. Nicola's plans only raise ?300
0:46:33 > 0:46:36million a year. You know that when I'm making a promise, I'm able to
0:46:37 > 0:46:41keep it because I'm being honest. There is an important point of
0:46:42 > 0:46:44accuracy here. I don't think it's acceptable for Kezia to come here
0:46:45 > 0:46:49and try to rewrite our manifesto which was published only a few days
0:46:50 > 0:46:52ago. I'm committing to increasing the health budget by ?500 million
0:46:53 > 0:46:55more than inflation over the next Parliament. Kezia's manifesto, and
0:46:56 > 0:47:00you can check it for yourself, you don't have to take my word for it,
0:47:01 > 0:47:04says Labour would increase the health budget only by inflation.
0:47:05 > 0:47:09That's actually less than the so-called Barnett consequentials.
0:47:10 > 0:47:12Kezia's in the bizarre position of offering the least extra investment
0:47:13 > 0:47:16of any of the parties here tonight. That's not true. It's shocking for a
0:47:17 > 0:47:20Labour Party to be in that position. APPLAUSE.
0:47:21 > 0:47:23Kezia Dugdale, what does your manifesto say you would spend on the
0:47:24 > 0:47:27NHS? We have said we'd increase spending on the NHS in line with
0:47:28 > 0:47:31inflation, but because of the different tax policies we have made,
0:47:32 > 0:47:36we can spend more money on Public Services because we are prepared
0:47:37 > 0:47:39to... Your manifesto says... Why haven't you put that extra spending
0:47:40 > 0:47:45in your manifesto, put a figure on it? But if you... This is important
0:47:46 > 0:47:49because... Yes it really is important. If you increase the
0:47:50 > 0:47:53health budget by inflation, you actually don't pass on even all of
0:47:54 > 0:47:56the Barnett consequentials, I'm saying ?500 million more than
0:47:57 > 0:48:01inflation. You cannot stand here with a manifesto that says inflation
0:48:02 > 0:48:04only and look at me saying ?500 million more than inflation and
0:48:05 > 0:48:16somehow say you are promising the same as the SNP. That's simply
0:48:17 > 0:48:20dishonest, Kezia. It's not. It's the lowest offer. Kezia's been asked a
0:48:21 > 0:48:23specific question. Tell us about your spending? What is dishonest is
0:48:24 > 0:48:27not to recognise the difference between your spending plans and mine
0:48:28 > 0:48:32is ?3 billion over the lifetime of the next Parliament. Nicola's not
0:48:33 > 0:48:35telling you that because she's refusing to use the tax powers of
0:48:36 > 0:48:41the Parliament, we are faced with ?3 billion worth of costs. We are
0:48:42 > 0:48:46talking about health spending here. ?600 million worth of Public
0:48:47 > 0:48:54Services for every Scot in the country -- ?600 worth. We have to be
0:48:55 > 0:48:58honest. Let's go back to the gentleman who asked the question and
0:48:59 > 0:49:03see what he makes of the debate. I'm extremely proud working on the
0:49:04 > 0:49:07frontline of the NHS and all of my colleagues rsmt I think one of the
0:49:08 > 0:49:13things moving forward is investment is important. It's important how we
0:49:14 > 0:49:18practise clinical care, work in an oaf FCive and safe manner so we can
0:49:19 > 0:49:31deregulate some of the processes and procedures that we have and open up
0:49:32 > 0:49:35other health care professionals -- work an effective.
0:49:36 > 0:49:39Another question now. Given the Edinburgh schools fiasco, how would
0:49:40 > 0:49:44politicians ensure money goes to the right people to safeguard our
0:49:45 > 0:49:53community? Thank you very much for your question. I have to warn the
0:49:54 > 0:49:59panelists, relatively briefly. The coalition government signed a lot of
0:50:00 > 0:50:03the partnerships, 17 of which have been closed because of worries about
0:50:04 > 0:50:08defects, was it a mistake to sign the contract? It was Gordon Brown
0:50:09 > 0:50:10who put in place a financial framework for all public sector
0:50:11 > 0:50:14bodies, whether it's the Scottish framework for all public sector
0:50:15 > 0:50:17Parliament, Scottish Government, local authorities, working under
0:50:18 > 0:50:21that regime. What we need to do now is to make sure that two things
0:50:22 > 0:50:26happen. The first thing is to get these schools opened as quickly as
0:50:27 > 0:50:32possible and safe as possible. That's the top priority. Because
0:50:33 > 0:50:35these kids deserve the opportunity to get educated in their schools.
0:50:36 > 0:50:40The second thing we need to do is to make sure that we have a proper
0:50:41 > 0:50:45inquiry. To find out whether the PFI or PPP arrangements at that time
0:50:46 > 0:50:48were a contributory factor to what has happened. Now, that is important
0:50:49 > 0:50:53in terms of how we are going to involve private finance in the
0:50:54 > 0:50:57future because it would be currently in our procurement just now, do have
0:50:58 > 0:51:01finance involved. Is this model better than the last? What other
0:51:02 > 0:51:05models should we be looking at? That's important. OK. If we are
0:51:06 > 0:51:11going to build new schools for the future. My idea, should we get the
0:51:12 > 0:51:15schools open as quickly and safely as possible, also make sure we have
0:51:16 > 0:51:20an inquiry for the future finance of our public bodies - yes. I careerly
0:51:21 > 0:51:26have to reissue the warning that we don't have much time to the end of
0:51:27 > 0:51:30the programme -- clearly. Was it a mistake for Holyrood to have signed
0:51:31 > 0:51:33the public private partnership? This is a very difficult question. The
0:51:34 > 0:51:37reality is we had to use that mechanism because the schools had
0:51:38 > 0:51:41been left in rack and ruin by the Tories for 18 years. Do I wish
0:51:42 > 0:51:45different choices had been made - absolutely. That is why the
0:51:46 > 0:51:49manifesto looks to review all forms of Private Finance Initiative,
0:51:50 > 0:51:53include ago method the SNP used now which is called NPD. Nicola is
0:51:54 > 0:51:57spending ?8 million on her own initiatives and the next Parliament
0:51:58 > 0:52:01is a chance to review all the different models of private finance.
0:52:02 > 0:52:02We don't yet know what's gone wrong in Edinburgh and there should be a
0:52:03 > 0:52:07full inquiry into that, but I think in Edinburgh and there should be a
0:52:08 > 0:52:11what we do know is that the old style PFI projects, unlike MPD which
0:52:12 > 0:52:17what we do know is that the old caps private profits... Still makes
0:52:18 > 0:52:20a profit though, doesn't it Maximised profit over good and that
0:52:21 > 0:52:24should never be allowed to happen again. I also think we should
0:52:25 > 0:52:28explore every opportunity where we can to get out of these old style
0:52:29 > 0:52:32PFI contracts so we get better value for taxpayers. In the future I want
0:52:33 > 0:52:36to see us get as much of the education budget into the hands of
0:52:37 > 0:52:41teachers and head teachers so it can go on improving education for your
0:52:42 > 0:52:47young people. Patrick Harvie? The anger of parents in the Edinburgh
0:52:48 > 0:52:50schools is palpable and justified and frankly, it rings a bit hollow
0:52:51 > 0:52:54to say that was the only game in town at the time because it was the
0:52:55 > 0:52:59UK Labour Government that made sure it was the only game in town. Even
0:53:00 > 0:53:02though we know that public sector borrowing is cheaper than private
0:53:03 > 0:53:09sector debt and these expensive deals that were done. So we do need
0:53:10 > 0:53:18to make sure - we don't need a huge inquiry to know whether PFI and PPP
0:53:19 > 0:53:22were a good idea, they were monumentally a bad idea - we need to
0:53:23 > 0:53:26improve thing, not just in schools. We need a debate on whether ferry
0:53:27 > 0:53:33services get handed over to the private sector, a debate about
0:53:34 > 0:53:37whether we bring railways back into public ownership. That is the only
0:53:38 > 0:53:40accountable way and very often the most affordable way in the long run
0:53:41 > 0:53:44rather than racking up huge debts for the future. Le's remember the
0:53:45 > 0:53:47questioner went beyond that specific question about schools. How do we
0:53:48 > 0:53:52make sure money goes to the right people? We need to look at the
0:53:53 > 0:53:55accountability of all of our Public Services and infrastructure and make
0:53:56 > 0:53:59sure that they operate in public hands for the public good. That's
0:54:00 > 0:54:02the agenda that Greens will represent in the next session of the
0:54:03 > 0:54:05Scottish Parliament and we hope to bring pressure to bear on the
0:54:06 > 0:54:08Scottish Government, whichever party is in power, to make sure that we
0:54:09 > 0:54:10keep our Public Services and infrastructure operating in the
0:54:11 > 0:54:18public sector. APPLAUSE.
0:54:19 > 0:54:22Thank you. Ruth day Sidson? On the Edinburgh schools, was it the public
0:54:23 > 0:54:27private partnership used to finance the building that was the problem?
0:54:28 > 0:54:30Everyone on the panel is absolutely right, we need an inquiry to find
0:54:31 > 0:54:33out what happened with this group of schools. We need to have parents
0:54:34 > 0:54:37across the country knowing the schools their children go to are
0:54:38 > 0:54:41safe. That's why we have been asking for more than two years now that
0:54:42 > 0:54:44buildings inspections are part of a regular inspection regime on our
0:54:45 > 0:54:47school estates and we have been knocked back at every turn by the
0:54:48 > 0:54:52SNP. We need to make sure that our buildings and the fabric of our
0:54:53 > 0:54:56buildings are regularly inspected, their upkept and people understand
0:54:57 > 0:55:03and know that when they send their children off to school, the schools
0:55:04 > 0:55:07are safe. PFI or whatever? Yes, regular schools. Even where private
0:55:08 > 0:55:11contractors... Let's quickly go to the audience. A gentleman with his
0:55:12 > 0:55:17hand in the air in a checked shirt in the middle. I want to ask a
0:55:18 > 0:55:21question to Nicola regarding people of Paisley. There are 100,000 people
0:55:22 > 0:55:29that are going to go to voting on Thursday. They are very concerned
0:55:30 > 0:55:32about Ward 15 at the hospital. There seems to be a question whether the
0:55:33 > 0:55:36Government is going to invest in that ward. That is a very specific
0:55:37 > 0:55:39question. We'll let Nicola answer it on health spending? I will
0:55:40 > 0:55:43absolutely give a commitment that we'll keep services as local as they
0:55:44 > 0:55:49need to be. I became the Health Secretary in 2007, the first Act I
0:55:50 > 0:55:54took as Health Secretary was to overturn Labour's plans to close
0:55:55 > 0:55:59accident and emergency services in Ayr. There are no proposals to close
0:56:00 > 0:56:03that particular ward, I believe, in local services with access for local
0:56:04 > 0:56:06people and I've got the record to prove that that's what I believe in.
0:56:07 > 0:56:10We were talking about schools and education and on that we have heard
0:56:11 > 0:56:14the teachers' union threatening to ballot for industrial action of
0:56:15 > 0:56:18their workload. Would you support them if they took action, Kezia dug
0:56:19 > 0:56:23Doyle da ill? Yes, because they are right to stand up toer that. They
0:56:24 > 0:56:27need to use the powers of the Parliament to invest to support our
0:56:28 > 0:56:32teachers and young people who're just about the sit their exams.
0:56:33 > 0:56:35Nicola Sturgeon, possible industrial action from teachers, saying their
0:56:36 > 0:56:38workload is overbearing and it's the curriculum for excellence, your
0:56:39 > 0:56:42policy? We have a working group right now looking at the concerns
0:56:43 > 0:56:47teachers have about over-assessment in schools and curriculum for
0:56:48 > 0:56:52excellence and we'll work with teachers to look at that. I am
0:56:53 > 0:56:56passionate about, if I am re-elected on Thursday as First Minister, I
0:56:57 > 0:56:59take nothing for granted, but I hope to be, and I'm passionate about
0:57:00 > 0:57:03making sure that we have the best education in all of our schools for
0:57:04 > 0:57:08all of your young people. I've said before and will say it again, it
0:57:09 > 0:57:12will be the determining mission if I'm re-elected.
0:57:13 > 0:57:21APPLAUSE. Reaction from the audience. A lady
0:57:22 > 0:57:27in a purple cardigan? If we are going to bring education back to
0:57:28 > 0:57:30what it was, where would standardising that come in, all
0:57:31 > 0:57:35teachers are doing is testing, they are teaching to test? Woe don't have
0:57:36 > 0:57:37time to answer these questions, I believe. We'll take some
0:57:38 > 0:57:43contributions, rather than questions. The gentleman there. How
0:57:44 > 0:57:46are we going to get out of these contracts? My children and
0:57:47 > 0:57:51grandchildren are going to be paying for this mistake. Billions of pounds
0:57:52 > 0:57:56for 100 million that should have went into schools are going to cost
0:57:57 > 0:57:59billions. We should be getting out of these contracts because they
0:58:00 > 0:58:02ripped us off and there was alternatives at the time. It's a
0:58:03 > 0:58:08fallacy and a lie to say there was no voices that said this is a
0:58:09 > 0:58:10ridiculous way to pay for schools. Thank you very much for your
0:58:11 > 0:58:13contribution, the palpable anger over this issue is clear, but I'm
0:58:14 > 0:58:18afraid that's all we've got time for. So we have time just to say,
0:58:19 > 0:58:23thank you to the panel, thank you to you for watching and to our audience
0:58:24 > 0:58:26for coming along this evening and for all their contributions. Plenty
0:58:27 > 0:58:30more online. The website address is on the screen and we'll be with you
0:58:31 > 0:58:35through the night on Thursday as we learn how you've all voted in this
0:58:36 > 0:58:39election. For now, from all of us at Hopetoun House. Good night.