:00:10. > :00:14.After the UK voted to leave the European Union, what now for
:00:15. > :00:38.Scotland? What are the advantages and
:00:39. > :00:42.disadvantages of a Brexit vote? What should our future relationship with
:00:43. > :00:49.the EU and the rest of the UK look like? To explore the options, here
:00:50. > :00:54.in Glasgow comedy Conservative MSP and law professor, Adam Tomkins. The
:00:55. > :01:00.Scottish Government's external affairs secretary, Fiona Hyslop of
:01:01. > :01:06.the SNP. Scottish Labour's economy spokesperson, Jackie Baillie. And
:01:07. > :01:14.the man who led the official Leave campaign in Scotland, former Labour
:01:15. > :01:21.MP, Tom Harris. You can join the debate on social media. We can get
:01:22. > :01:26.started and go straight to our first question from Hannah McDonald. Can
:01:27. > :01:32.Scotland realistically stay in the EU even without the rest of Britain?
:01:33. > :01:35.First Minister Nicola Sturgeon says she is exploring options to retain
:01:36. > :01:44.the Scottish links with the European Union. But Fiona Hyslop ,, can
:01:45. > :01:49.Scotland realistically stay in? It depends on a lot of things going
:01:50. > :01:53.forward but yes. I know one of the ways to do that would be for
:01:54. > :01:58.Scotland to become independent and to remain to be the member states
:01:59. > :02:04.that stayed in if the rest of the United Kingdom came out. But we are
:02:05. > :02:08.not there yet. We only had the vote barely a week ago. We have to look
:02:09. > :02:12.at the interest of Scotland for a wide range of views and opinions.
:02:13. > :02:16.That's why looking at all the options to make sure we can protect
:02:17. > :02:26.the Scottish interests, and if that means protecting the interests of
:02:27. > :02:31.the fair and honest thing to do, and the honest thing to do, is to look
:02:32. > :02:37.at any option possible. That's the generosity and whiteness we have to
:02:38. > :02:40.do in Scotland because people voted different ways. I'm determined that
:02:41. > :02:46.whatever happens we will protect the Scottish interests and make sure our
:02:47. > :02:52.voice is heard. Having been through the independence referendum, people
:02:53. > :02:55.probably understand what that option is about, but if it wasn't
:02:56. > :03:00.independence, how would it work, Scotland retaining links with the EU
:03:01. > :03:03.and still part of the UK? How would that work? That's why we had the
:03:04. > :03:08.standing Council on Europe where we have experts from a whole range,
:03:09. > :03:13.diplomacy and business etc, and we have to identify the interests of
:03:14. > :03:19.Scotland in particular. We don't even know what the Leave campaign or
:03:20. > :03:23.the UK Government is determining is in our interests. Will we be in the
:03:24. > :03:28.single market or not? On that spectrum from the period of why you
:03:29. > :03:35.say, where you think the only way to maintain the interests and links are
:03:36. > :03:38.independents, not like the Norway model, but there is so much
:03:39. > :03:41.uncertainty and what we have to do is Mitchell we have clarity and our
:03:42. > :03:46.voices are heard. It doesn't sound like you have a clear plan at this
:03:47. > :03:50.stage. I am not prejudging and that is vital for the Scottish
:03:51. > :03:54.Government's perspective. We are open to making sure all options are
:03:55. > :04:02.looked at. That's the responsible thing for the Scottish Government.
:04:03. > :04:05.Frankly, the behaviour of the UK Government and the Leave campaign,
:04:06. > :04:11.leaving us with nothing a week after is absolutely disgraceful. Some
:04:12. > :04:13.voices from the audience about what you think should flow from the
:04:14. > :04:22.results from a Scottish point of view. Could you define what the
:04:23. > :04:29.options could be, even some examples, because to say options, is
:04:30. > :04:33.quite a vague term for voters. Some examples of options, even if you
:04:34. > :04:37.don't necessarily see them working. At this stage Fiona Hyslop saying
:04:38. > :04:40.she is open to options instead of setting some out. If the on the
:04:41. > :04:47.panellists want to pick up on that, that will be fine. The gentleman in
:04:48. > :04:51.the tartan waistcoat. I voted for independence and lost. I voted to
:04:52. > :04:56.get the hell out of Europe, and I thought we won. Now I'm not sure
:04:57. > :05:01.where I am. What am I supposed to vote in future if I'm landed with
:05:02. > :05:08.independence against staying in Europe? I wouldn't know what to do,
:05:09. > :05:16.help me out. The gentleman in the front row with the purple tie. Can I
:05:17. > :05:20.question the SNP's voracity on this subject? They say Scotland voted
:05:21. > :05:26.overwhelmingly to stay in Europe. If you look at the figures, there is
:05:27. > :05:33.just under 4 million people eligible to vote, 1.6 million said wanted to
:05:34. > :05:41.remain. Where does this hype come from that we have to leave the UK
:05:42. > :05:50.Nestor that's not what Fiona Hiscock has said. -- leave the UK? That's
:05:51. > :05:55.not what Fiona Hyslop has said. She said it was one option. What would
:05:56. > :06:01.you like to happen? I would like the UK to stay together. Going to Adam
:06:02. > :06:07.Tomkins, a Conservative MSP and a law professor. What are the options,
:06:08. > :06:12.could Scotland realistically stay in the EU. What's possible from your
:06:13. > :06:16.point of view? There are more agreements than disagreements
:06:17. > :06:20.between myself and what Fiona Hyslop just sad. I think we and the United
:06:21. > :06:24.Kingdom should be looking at all the options and Fiona is right to say
:06:25. > :06:28.that nobody in the United Kingdom or Scotland has yet put their finger on
:06:29. > :06:33.the word leave and defined what they mean by it. Do they mean to stay in
:06:34. > :06:40.the single market, do they mean access to the single market, or a
:06:41. > :06:45.Norway style deal, accessed the single market but no freedom of
:06:46. > :06:52.movement? Unfortunately is grave uncertainty about what this means. I
:06:53. > :06:57.think it is for the next Prime Minister to lead the argument as to
:06:58. > :07:03.what the United Kingdom would be negotiating for. There is not much
:07:04. > :07:08.that is heartening about this, this is not where I wanted to be, I
:07:09. > :07:12.wanted a remain vote, but what is heartening about this is that the
:07:13. > :07:17.current Prime Minister David Cameron has said he wants team UK, a
:07:18. > :07:23.negotiating team for the kingdom, not just comprising the English
:07:24. > :07:27.government, but the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Ireland and the Mayor of
:07:28. > :07:34.London to be on that. So the interests of all parties are fully
:07:35. > :07:40.and properly represented. Just pick up on one of the points made from
:07:41. > :07:45.the audience, do you understand the frustration of what the options are,
:07:46. > :07:48.going with whatever the UK negotiates or going down the
:07:49. > :07:53.independence route? Is there a middle way of achieving it? The
:07:54. > :07:57.European Union is a fluid organisation. It was already a
:07:58. > :08:04.multispeed Europe, some countries in the euro, some countries in the
:08:05. > :08:07.Schengen free movement area. Some countries former member states of
:08:08. > :08:14.the European Union. Some countries like Denmark and Greenland, which
:08:15. > :08:19.was part of Denmark have different Halation is within the main part of
:08:20. > :08:24.Denmark and in agreement. A lot of options need to be carefully and
:08:25. > :08:28.exhaustively looked at. This will take a very long time. Anybody who
:08:29. > :08:33.wants to move quickly from Brexit to a quick fix it is unfortunately
:08:34. > :08:36.going to be disappointed. These will be long, difficult and protracted
:08:37. > :08:41.negotiations. The important thing is, the Prime Minister has made it
:08:42. > :08:46.absolutely plain that he once the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola
:08:47. > :08:50.Sturgeon and her Cabinet, of which Fiona is a key member, to play a
:08:51. > :08:55.full role in those the gauche agents to ensure Scotland's interests are
:08:56. > :08:58.more than adequately, properly and interested represented in those
:08:59. > :09:07.negotiations. Would Ruth Davidson act as a broker between the two?
:09:08. > :09:09.It's a role for governments. It's the role for opposition ministers
:09:10. > :09:19.like myself and Ruth Davidson to hold governments to account.
:09:20. > :09:23.Bringing Fiona Hyslop back in, do you think this will be a long
:09:24. > :09:28.drawn-out process, and if independence is an option, and the
:09:29. > :09:30.First Minister says it's highly likely there will be another
:09:31. > :09:35.independence referendum, at what point would that be decided? When
:09:36. > :09:42.article 50 is launched... The process that triggers the process.
:09:43. > :09:48.You on a two-year timescale from that. It focuses the mind on that
:09:49. > :09:55.timescale. There has to be a lot of talking before we get to article 54
:09:56. > :09:59.leaving being lodged. It's essential Scotland is part of the process
:10:00. > :10:03.leading up to Article 50 being lodged as well as during it. I met
:10:04. > :10:13.with the Secretary of State for Scotland. That was the day after the
:10:14. > :10:18.referendum. I have already spoken to the Minister for Europe, and I will
:10:19. > :10:21.be meeting with David this week again, and again with the Secretary
:10:22. > :10:26.of State. We are not waiting. There is no vacuum in Scotland and we are
:10:27. > :10:30.moving rapidly. Timescale for a potential independence referendum
:10:31. > :10:33.number two? Let's see what the options are, and if we get to that
:10:34. > :10:37.number two? Let's see what the stage, is the only way we can
:10:38. > :10:39.maintain the level of European influence and representation we
:10:40. > :10:44.want, we would go back to Parliament. You decided that during
:10:45. > :10:50.Brexit negotiations? We managed to get agreement from the Parliament
:10:51. > :10:54.last week, 92 - zero, to precede the way the Scottish Government is
:10:55. > :10:57.proceeding in setting out our interests, and in terms of
:10:58. > :11:02.timescale, we would only proceed to independence referendum with the
:11:03. > :11:05.agreement of Parliament. During the negotiations on Brexit? Let's look
:11:06. > :11:13.at the time scales. I think article 50 could be lodged next week, within
:11:14. > :11:17.a few weeks. We heard from one of the cabinets from the Prime Minister
:11:18. > :11:24.position, it might not be until next year. Whatever happens, haste is not
:11:25. > :11:27.required. We want to hear more from the audience, should leave mean
:11:28. > :11:33.leave for the whole UK, or our politicians right to pursue a
:11:34. > :11:37.separate deal for Scotland to try to maintain the links that currently
:11:38. > :11:45.exist? We can hear from the gentleman in the blue top. Hasn't it
:11:46. > :11:50.been made obvious that access to the single market will entail free
:11:51. > :11:53.movement similar to what Norway and Switzerland have, but with
:11:54. > :11:57.immigration being one of the main driving factors behind the Leave
:11:58. > :12:01.vote, can we assume that's off the table? I don't think we can assume
:12:02. > :12:08.anything at the moment. The lady in the second row in the middle. The
:12:09. > :12:12.British electorate were not asked to vote on this middle ground. They
:12:13. > :12:17.were asked, do you want to stay or leave? All the talk now, why were we
:12:18. > :12:26.not having more of these discussions before we went to the British
:12:27. > :12:29.electorate? Given that the UK has voted to leave and Scotland voted
:12:30. > :12:35.the other way, what do you think should happen as a result? I think
:12:36. > :12:38.Fiona is right, we need at least a period of stability where nothing
:12:39. > :12:43.happens. Taking a deep breath as a country before moving on. I voted to
:12:44. > :12:51.remain, but more than 50% of this country said leave. The lady with
:12:52. > :13:01.the scarf. I think it's interesting to note that the leave vote... The
:13:02. > :13:07.most searched item on Google after leaving was, what is the EU? There
:13:08. > :13:12.was a lot of misinformation and miscommunication. It was not a very
:13:13. > :13:15.good referendum and we didn't have the information. In the Scottish
:13:16. > :13:21.referendum there were pages of information available a year before
:13:22. > :13:24.the vote. How could this occur with the EU referendum, so quickly after
:13:25. > :13:30.it was announced and with so little information? Tom Harris, why was
:13:31. > :13:37.there no perspective from the Leave campaign as to what would happen
:13:38. > :13:42.afterwards? My own view is, if you remember the last prospectus the
:13:43. > :13:44.Scottish Government produced in the independence referendum, the
:13:45. > :13:51.Scottish White Paper, every single page in that was subject to attack
:13:52. > :13:52.from Better Together. It didn't help the campaign. If Leave had done the
:13:53. > :13:57.same, and we did have information on the campaign. If Leave had done the
:13:58. > :14:03.the website, but if we produced a similar White Paper. First,
:14:04. > :14:07.governments produce white papers, not campaigning groups. And
:14:08. > :14:10.secondly, every single proposal would be subject to contradiction,
:14:11. > :14:14.and taking to bits. That's understandable but does that is what
:14:15. > :14:18.is happening in a referendum. We went to polling day in exactly the
:14:19. > :14:24.same situation with both sides arguing over the detail. It doesn't
:14:25. > :14:29.look great now. That's completely unacceptable. You said anything just
:14:30. > :14:30.to win a vote without any plan or substance whatsoever and that is
:14:31. > :14:41.completely and utterly... substance whatsoever and that is
:14:42. > :14:46.So did the Scottish Government. Were you at least disappointed that some
:14:47. > :14:51.of those who led the campaign at UK level alongside you, seemed to
:14:52. > :14:54.disappear in the days after? It's the government that has the
:14:55. > :14:58.responsibility for calming the markets, for example. I was
:14:59. > :15:02.disappointed that leaders of all parties disappeared and did not try
:15:03. > :15:07.to calm the markets or reassure voters. Actually here in Scotland,
:15:08. > :15:10.the same thing happened. Nicola Sturgeon was very visible, but all
:15:11. > :15:21.she did at 11am on Friday morning was make people more uncertain of
:15:22. > :15:28.the future. All politicians at senior level of all parties have let
:15:29. > :15:32.the side down. What do you think should happen now? Are you
:15:33. > :15:38.comfortable with the idea of politicians at Holyrood trying to
:15:39. > :15:41.seek a route to maintain EU links? I think they are probably on a hiding
:15:42. > :15:47.to nothing but it'll be interesting to see what they come up with. I
:15:48. > :15:50.don't think the current standard of the EU allows for that semidetached
:15:51. > :15:54.membership to happen. And I absolutely reject the idea that
:15:55. > :16:01.Scotland is being taken out against its will. Scotland didn't vote, 30
:16:02. > :16:06.million individual voters voted. It's not just remain voters in
:16:07. > :16:09.Scotland disappointed, it's 15 million throughout the country who
:16:10. > :16:13.will be taken out of the EU against their will, but that is democracy.
:16:14. > :16:19.Jackie Baillie, if that's democracy and its UK wide vote and we should
:16:20. > :16:22.accept it in Scotland as elsewhere why is your party back in the
:16:23. > :16:26.Scottish Government in the route they are taking? I think this is
:16:27. > :16:32.probably the biggest political event of my lifetime and it's created huge
:16:33. > :16:35.uncertainty, whatever side of the argument you were on, economic,
:16:36. > :16:40.constitutionally, politically, and we should take the time to consider
:16:41. > :16:46.our options. I recognise it was a UK vote, but I also recognise within
:16:47. > :16:50.the UK, Scotland, Northern Ireland, London, Manchester and Cardiff all
:16:51. > :16:55.voted differently. No doubt in my mind there is an impact on the
:16:56. > :17:00.economy. I hope the politicians in the Scottish parliament as well as
:17:01. > :17:04.in the UK Parliament take action to stabilise the markets and currency.
:17:05. > :17:11.Because these have real consequences for jobs, employment, pensions and
:17:12. > :17:15.mortgages. And that's happening now. To suggest we can simply do nothing
:17:16. > :17:20.isn't right. Equally I think we should take time to consider all the
:17:21. > :17:23.options, and there are myriad ones, and it doesn't necessarily mean to
:17:24. > :17:28.be something that has happened before. Let's look at the options
:17:29. > :17:32.available to us. Just as I would support Nicola Sturgeon going round
:17:33. > :17:36.Europe talking to the leaders of European nations, so I would urge
:17:37. > :17:42.her to equally be part of the UK negotiations.
:17:43. > :17:49.Just to be very clear, in considering all the options, does
:17:50. > :17:54.that mean Labour's policy of not having another referendum in the
:17:55. > :17:59.next five years is now up in the air? Our manifesto commitment is
:18:00. > :18:04.very clear. We will doubt the second independence referendum within the
:18:05. > :18:09.lifetime of this Parliament. Hold on a second. We have taken a huge
:18:10. > :18:13.decision. I do not think any politician should rush to judgment
:18:14. > :18:17.about being definitive. We will do this and we will do that. I think we
:18:18. > :18:27.need to keep all our options on the table. An independence referendum is
:18:28. > :18:34.the Government's preferred decision. I want to listen to the people of
:18:35. > :18:38.Scotland. It has not changed but it might change. The majority of people
:18:39. > :18:43.ruled out a second independence referendum because they felt it was
:18:44. > :18:46.divisive. To be honest, I would want to keep options on the table. I
:18:47. > :18:50.think we should not rush to any decision just now. We have an
:18:51. > :18:55.enormous consequence to consider as a result of this. There is a clear
:18:56. > :19:05.difference between the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish
:19:06. > :19:07.Conservatives. We do not support the Scottish independence referendum.
:19:08. > :19:12.Under no separate senses would we support the break-up of the United
:19:13. > :19:16.Kingdom. Hang on a second. Just yesterday, whilst that is your
:19:17. > :19:22.position, yesterday, Ruth Davidson said the UK Government should not
:19:23. > :19:28.block a referendum. That is not stopping it. Let me be plain about
:19:29. > :19:33.what Ruth Davidson said yesterday. The Scottish Conservatives will
:19:34. > :19:37.resist any attempt to introduce a second independence referendum bill.
:19:38. > :19:45.We will resist that. If she uses the majority she may well have, together
:19:46. > :19:49.with the Greens... There is the world of difference between
:19:50. > :19:53.politically resisting a second independence referendum are going to
:19:54. > :19:55.the courts to have the courts rule that a second independence
:19:56. > :20:01.referendum should be declared unlawful. That is what the Spanish
:20:02. > :20:03.did. When they did that, it resulted in a million Catalans marching
:20:04. > :20:07.did. When they did that, it resulted through the streets of Barcelona. We
:20:08. > :20:11.did. When they did that, it resulted do not want to dance on the head of
:20:12. > :20:16.a pin. For the Tories to claim somehow they are defenders of the
:20:17. > :20:19.union when we had English votes for English laws, we had a general
:20:20. > :20:24.election and Scotland placed against England. You are in a kind of
:20:25. > :20:31.battle. Thirdly, in the Scottish Parliament elections, a rerun of the
:20:32. > :20:34.referendum elections. I want to follow up with a secondary
:20:35. > :20:39.contribution on this from J Irvin, a member of our audience.
:20:40. > :20:42.Is a post Brexit Scotland better equipped now
:20:43. > :20:48.Is a post Brexit Scotland better equipped now
:20:49. > :20:59.I very much doubt it. The owner talked about what is best for
:21:00. > :21:06.Scotland. What is best in Scotland is that it stays part with full
:21:07. > :21:11.access to its biggest market. Only 15% of our exports go to the
:21:12. > :21:16.European single market. So, if you're talking about Scotland's best
:21:17. > :21:20.interests, obviously they lie in the UK before they lie in the EU. I
:21:21. > :21:24.think, if anything, the economic case for independence is far weaker
:21:25. > :21:32.now than it was two years ago. The problem would be, I think, and I do
:21:33. > :21:36.not underestimate the problems of winning a second referendum. A lot
:21:37. > :21:40.of people come to this issue of independence with an emotional,
:21:41. > :21:44.rather than an economic or rational perspective. Let's make no mistake
:21:45. > :21:47.was the reason the Scottish Government has raised this issue
:21:48. > :21:53.about Scottish membership of the EU is one reason only, to try to
:21:54. > :22:02.engineer a second referendum. That is the priority with nationalists.
:22:03. > :22:10.completely reject that proposition. completely reject that proposition.
:22:11. > :22:16.-- Fiona. This is one of the most momentous things to have happened in
:22:17. > :22:20.a political generation. On day one we were phoning contacts in all the
:22:21. > :22:24.interests, whether businesses or other organisations got to make sure
:22:25. > :22:28.we were providing leadership and stabilisation about what is required
:22:29. > :22:31.in Scotland. The idea that somehow this was an engineer position we
:22:32. > :22:36.in Scotland. The idea that somehow wanted, I absolutely wanted the
:22:37. > :22:40.United Kingdom to remain in the EU. We have to deal with where we are
:22:41. > :22:44.now. The question is about the position of Scotland and how
:22:45. > :22:50.well-placed we are. We live in a different world, even now as we were
:22:51. > :22:56.going forward towards 2014. The UK has had its credit rating again
:22:57. > :23:00.reduced. We have seen immediate actions and George Osborne today
:23:01. > :23:05.trying to reduce corporation tax to stop people leaving the UK to go and
:23:06. > :23:12.find another site for their businesses. Are we better equipped
:23:13. > :23:16.now to face an independence vote or not? We would be better equipped
:23:17. > :23:20.because we have done the preparations for what is required.
:23:21. > :23:26.Not just before 2014 going forward but in terms of where we are now, in
:23:27. > :23:30.terms of what we can do in our operation, our interests have to be
:23:31. > :23:33.international. We cannot be part of something that is somehow trying to
:23:34. > :23:39.restrict Scotland's movement. In terms of access to the markets,
:23:40. > :23:48.everybody on the Leeds side said, regardless of what happens, we will
:23:49. > :23:51.still be a single market. -- leave. Scotland would be part of that if
:23:52. > :23:54.that were a result that people wanted, or within the European Union
:23:55. > :24:01.for the guided we would not be able to trade is ridiculous. People would
:24:02. > :24:05.have two decide what kind of country we want. We want a country that is
:24:06. > :24:10.outward looking do we want the politics, which is being brought
:24:11. > :24:15.into play not just before the election for the EU post the
:24:16. > :24:23.referendum? We have to shape our own future what it will be shaped for
:24:24. > :24:27.us. On that point, is a post Brexit Scotland better equipped now for
:24:28. > :24:32.independence than in 2014. I'm going to move on. I was going to go back
:24:33. > :24:35.to the point about nationalism and to move on. I was going to go back
:24:36. > :24:40.people thinking about Scottish independence from an emotional
:24:41. > :24:47.viewpoint. Do not think a lot leave voters were from an emotional point
:24:48. > :24:52.of view rather than a rational one. On the topic of independence, the
:24:53. > :24:55.gentleman with the glasses for rose from the back. I believe in
:24:56. > :24:59.independence was Scotland. The position of the SNP on this is
:25:00. > :25:04.paradoxical. Why would we want to leave the union we are in currently
:25:05. > :25:08.where most of the trade is, where we have had a long, social, political
:25:09. > :25:12.union, to leave it and go into a union where they will have more
:25:13. > :25:16.economic and physical influence on us. We either believe in
:25:17. > :25:24.independence or we do not. Thank you very much. The gentleman down here.
:25:25. > :25:29.Tom, I will address what you are saying about the economy, etc. I
:25:30. > :25:34.have a background in economic development. I was one of the
:25:35. > :25:37.management team in the development company in the north-east. I'm
:25:38. > :25:42.English by birth and Scottish by choice. In terms of going forward,
:25:43. > :25:46.to leave the European market, we will close the doors on a massive
:25:47. > :25:50.number of opportunities for Scotland and the UK, not the least being
:25:51. > :25:57.inward investment. Inward investors who have come to the UK over the
:25:58. > :26:00.years have done so because it is the gateway to the European market. On
:26:01. > :26:02.the question of Scottish gateway to the European market. On
:26:03. > :26:08.independence, do you think we will be better equipped now than before?
:26:09. > :26:14.I voted yes on the last one and I would vote yes again. That campaign
:26:15. > :26:25.was run on a tissue of lies from both sides. It was not done for any
:26:26. > :26:30.sort of altruistic reason. It was done to pacify the Eurosceptics on
:26:31. > :26:34.the backbenches in Parliament to address the problems of Ukip taking
:26:35. > :26:40.votes from the Tories in the south and to ward off a leadership
:26:41. > :26:45.challenge. If we are going to go forward from an economic point of
:26:46. > :26:49.view, what we need is to have an impact assessment. This should have
:26:50. > :26:52.been done by the British government. The Scottish Government, I think, we
:26:53. > :26:56.should be looking at what we are getting out of Europe and what is
:26:57. > :27:00.the impact of coming out of it. It is not just financial, it is about
:27:01. > :27:07.the people who are here as well in the health service. Thank you for
:27:08. > :27:13.that contribution. I appreciate that. The gentleman in the front row
:27:14. > :27:19.with the stripey tie. On the subject of independence, is it a good thing
:27:20. > :27:27.for Scotland to leave the UK, considering the fact that the UK
:27:28. > :27:31.provides 8 billion in Barnett Formula money and join the European
:27:32. > :27:36.Union where the membership fee would be 1 billion, 2 billion a year. That
:27:37. > :27:39.is a net loss to the Scottish Government budget of about one
:27:40. > :27:44.seventh of its budget. That is a very big price to pay for membership
:27:45. > :27:51.of a club that is an economic basket case. Thank you grow much indeed.
:27:52. > :27:55.APPLAUSE Thank you for your contribution.
:27:56. > :27:58.Moving on to another question. We will hear more from panel and
:27:59. > :28:06.Moving on to another question. We audience. Stephen row with the next
:28:07. > :28:13.question. Should Scotland formally applied for immigration policy to be
:28:14. > :28:17.devolved? Michael Gove suggested there might be some new arrangement
:28:18. > :28:23.where powers of immigration be shared between Holyrood and
:28:24. > :28:27.Westminster. Let's put that first of all to Alan. I think now be very
:28:28. > :28:30.difficult. There is no country in the world, no matter how much
:28:31. > :28:35.devolution they have, no federal country has more than one
:28:36. > :28:38.immigration policy. Michael Gove is the Justice Secretary in the United
:28:39. > :28:45.Kingdom government. Surely he would know what he is talking about. That
:28:46. > :28:48.is an assumption too far. I cannot speak for what Michael said about
:28:49. > :28:53.immigration in the campaign. I'm trying to want to the question. The
:28:54. > :28:57.honest answer is, it would be very difficult to have a single United
:28:58. > :29:01.Kingdom with more than one immigration policy being operated at
:29:02. > :29:04.any one time. Immigration in Canada is controlled by Ottawa and not by
:29:05. > :29:07.any one time. Immigration in Canada the provinces. Immigration in the
:29:08. > :29:13.United States is controlled by Washington, DC and not the states.
:29:14. > :29:18.There are some exceptions. The state of Arizona has tried to run an
:29:19. > :29:22.immigration policy, not a very progressive immigration policy it
:29:23. > :29:26.must be said. It has tried to run its own immigration policy and being
:29:27. > :29:30.slapped down by the US Supreme Court because it said it is a matter for
:29:31. > :29:34.the federal government and not individual states. The truth of the
:29:35. > :29:39.matter is that it is very difficult to see how we can have a single
:29:40. > :29:45.state running two immigration policies at the same time. In
:29:46. > :29:49.Michael Gove's thanks, I am not necessarily supporting Michael for
:29:50. > :29:55.any position. His comments on the morning you referred to were
:29:56. > :30:01.directly as a result of the proposal for the vote leave campaign. We need
:30:02. > :30:04.directly as a result of the proposal you in the Brexit negotiations could
:30:05. > :30:09.here is where Scottish ministers could make a play to take control or
:30:10. > :30:13.to institute a new work Visa programme. We all say that freedom
:30:14. > :30:18.of movement helps us because it fills gaps in the market. The fact
:30:19. > :30:26.is, freedom of movement from the EU has not stopped those skills gap is
:30:27. > :30:29.widening. If we'd did get control over immigration, the skills gaps
:30:30. > :30:33.would still be there. What we need to do is attract the best and
:30:34. > :30:38.brightest from across the world. Not just across the EU but beyond the EU
:30:39. > :30:45.as well. The Scottish Government should say, let's institute a new
:30:46. > :30:50.work Visa programme, sponsored by Scottish employers. Jack McConnell
:30:51. > :30:54.was the forerunner in this. There is a precedent for the Scottish
:30:55. > :30:55.Parliament having a say but not directly on immigration policy but
:30:56. > :31:00.on employment policy. I want to bring a few voices in from
:31:01. > :31:08.the audience and then we will come I want to bring a few voices in from
:31:09. > :31:12.back to the panel. My wife is a non-EU foreign national. If the
:31:13. > :31:16.Scottish were to run a more lenient immigration system, it will be
:31:17. > :31:20.beneficial for me to stay here, heard to get citizenship before may
:31:21. > :31:26.be moving back down to England. That does not seem a very sustainable UK
:31:27. > :31:31.wide immigration policy. The gentleman behind you. Should we be
:31:32. > :31:36.talking more about investment in services and structure of job so it
:31:37. > :31:38.talking more about investment in is not just about free movement of
:31:39. > :31:42.Labour but about creating good quality jobs estimate we have an
:31:43. > :31:48.opportunity to change the way we quality jobs estimate we have an
:31:49. > :31:56.plan our economy. OK, thanks very much. Gentleman on this side, three
:31:57. > :31:59.rows in. Yes. Following the sharp increase in the xenophobic crime
:32:00. > :32:02.down south, what is being done in Scotland to make sure the half
:32:03. > :32:06.million immigrants living here and people of colour who were born here
:32:07. > :32:13.feel safe and welcoming Scotland? OK. On that last point, I thought it
:32:14. > :32:17.was very important that the first thing the First Minister Scotland
:32:18. > :32:20.said on the Friday morning was to say that EU citizens living here in
:32:21. > :32:28.Scotland are very welcome. This is their home and their cost abusive is
:32:29. > :32:31.valued. -- contribution. In terms of what we are doing tomorrow morning
:32:32. > :32:36.with the First Minister, we will be meeting with the consular Corps of
:32:37. > :32:41.the European countries to talk to them about how we can make sure we
:32:42. > :32:47.can take steps to make sure they know the practical aspects of this
:32:48. > :32:50.are realised. So far not the same activity as we have seen down south
:32:51. > :32:56.but we all have to be vigilant. It is a little -- also about making
:32:57. > :33:09.sure that there are industries, like tourism, which are reliant on
:33:10. > :33:14.migrant Labour. Of the 173,000 EU nationals who are here, many of them
:33:15. > :33:18.are retired, many have children in my constituency. Could you have a
:33:19. > :33:26.variation on a theme between Holyrood and Westminster?
:33:27. > :33:31.The Canadian example is one that could work. There are different
:33:32. > :33:35.variations. Even under devolution we have had a different system where
:33:36. > :33:39.people want to come and study and stay here, we educate all these
:33:40. > :33:45.wonderful young talented people and say, we will not use your brains and
:33:46. > :33:49.abilities, and you have to leave. Somebody mentioned the point, why is
:33:50. > :33:53.this? It's about respect for individuals, how our country is
:33:54. > :33:57.perceived as welcoming, and make sure we have jobs and opportunities
:33:58. > :34:01.and employment. I have particular concerns about the creative
:34:02. > :34:05.industries where people want to come to a open-minded and outward looking
:34:06. > :34:11.country and people think, is this the country for me in the UK? We
:34:12. > :34:13.have to change that. The BBC does this all the time, automatically
:34:14. > :34:17.jumping to what is a constitutional this all the time, automatically
:34:18. > :34:22.option or solution. Let's look at the issues. I think one of the ones
:34:23. > :34:28.on how to keep talented people here, helping them, that's a priority. How
:34:29. > :34:34.do we maximise the option for Scotland for it to be the country we
:34:35. > :34:38.want it to be? Jackie Baillie. I think we should take a zero
:34:39. > :34:47.tolerance approach to xenophobia where ever it occurs. I was equally
:34:48. > :34:52.very pleased to see the First Minister come out early on, as with
:34:53. > :34:56.other party leaders to indicate Scotland has a tradition of being
:34:57. > :34:58.welcoming and people are welcome here. Those EU residents already
:34:59. > :35:02.here should be allowed to stay. This here. Those EU residents already
:35:03. > :35:08.is their home and where they contribute. I'm aware that not just
:35:09. > :35:11.in tourism, in my own constituency, but in the health service, we
:35:12. > :35:17.welcome people from around the world. There is no secret WWE
:35:18. > :35:25.Experience skill shortages. We attract those from around the world.
:35:26. > :35:29.-- there is no secret we experience skill shortages. I'm half Scottish
:35:30. > :35:37.and half Portuguese, born in Hong Kong. My mother went abroad, met my
:35:38. > :35:41.father, and we have since come back to Scotland to contribute here
:35:42. > :35:50.because I feel this is my home. Which bit of me do you want to send
:35:51. > :35:53.back? Really? On that point, the First Minister has written to the
:35:54. > :35:58.Prime Minister and the Conservative leadership candidates on this issue
:35:59. > :36:04.asking that they make clear EU National 's can stay in the UK.
:36:05. > :36:09.Theresa May has said they will need to look at the question of people
:36:10. > :36:15.here in the UK from the EU. Is she making a mistake to take that
:36:16. > :36:18.position? Yes. Yes she is, and that's one of the reasons I'm not
:36:19. > :36:27.supporting her bed. I support Michael Gove. I campaigned for Rhein
:36:28. > :36:31.remain and he campaigned for leave, but I believe he's the most liberal
:36:32. > :36:37.in terms of the candidates, liberal in terms of reform and economic
:36:38. > :36:42.policy. Why do you disagree on Theresa May on this issue? On the
:36:43. > :36:45.specific issue of EU National is living in the United Kingdom, I'm
:36:46. > :36:49.clear that all EU National is living in the UK and the moment should be
:36:50. > :36:54.able to remain in the United Kingdom, not just for the time
:36:55. > :36:59.being, but indefinitely. If they are here lawfully now, they should be
:37:00. > :37:04.able to stay lawfully, as should British citizens living elsewhere in
:37:05. > :37:07.the European Union. I am clear about that and I think all leadership
:37:08. > :37:13.candidates are, apart from Theresa May who said something different
:37:14. > :37:17.today. Forgive me, Jackie Baillie, but there is no need for anybody to
:37:18. > :37:23.get on their soap box and say, what part of me IU sending back. There is
:37:24. > :37:32.no suggestion of anyone sending anyone back. During the referendum
:37:33. > :37:38.it was made clear by Vote Leave that the vote... But that will not live
:37:39. > :37:42.at the Brexit result, it is the government. We were pointing at
:37:43. > :37:45.international law. People resident here from the EU who are here
:37:46. > :37:49.legally, there is nothing in law to suggest they will be sent back, and
:37:50. > :37:54.there shouldn't be. But those saying they will not give guarantees to EU
:37:55. > :38:01.National is, do you think they will be required to? When Theresa May
:38:02. > :38:05.stud today she was not supported by a single MP on either side because
:38:06. > :38:09.people knew it was a cynical move to help her leadership campaign and
:38:10. > :38:14.nothing to do with the legal status of EU citizens in this country.
:38:15. > :38:21.Hearing from the audience on this. The lady with the dark hair. The
:38:22. > :38:25.fact you said a zero tolerance campaign on xenophobia, how on earth
:38:26. > :38:30.could we have a referendum campaign so based on xenophobia? This should
:38:31. > :38:38.be something that should be inherent to everything we do in politics and
:38:39. > :38:45.in our society. The gentleman in the middle of the second row. The Leave
:38:46. > :38:48.campaign was based and aimed at the uneducated who were given the
:38:49. > :38:52.impression that by Friday or Monday morning, people would be basically
:38:53. > :39:01.told they were no longer welcome here. Politicians of all parties
:39:02. > :39:05.fell over themselves a few years ago to say it's OK to talk about
:39:06. > :39:09.immigration without being called racist. But as soon as immigration
:39:10. > :39:14.is raised, it's called racist. It's not extreme or racist to say people
:39:15. > :39:17.Britain should have the same ability to manage immigration at every other
:39:18. > :39:23.democratic and progressive country in the world has. That's a normal
:39:24. > :39:27.thing for a country to have. Of course it's wrong, and for Argentina
:39:28. > :39:32.'s campaign were very guilty of xenophobia, I think, but our
:39:33. > :39:39.campaign never used it. -- and Farage's campaign were very guilty
:39:40. > :39:42.of xenophobia, I think. I genuinely think it shouldn't make any
:39:43. > :39:50.difference whether we are more or less welcoming. The perception has
:39:51. > :39:53.been informed by bad reporting of what the referendum actually means.
:39:54. > :39:59.All the referendum means is that we have made a decision as a country to
:40:00. > :40:05.remove ourselves from a type of Administration in the EU that is
:40:06. > :40:10.past its sell by date. It doesn't mean people living here are not
:40:11. > :40:14.welcome. I think it's very important that we hear from those who seek to
:40:15. > :40:22.lead the country at UK level as Prime Minister that they can agree
:40:23. > :40:26.EU citizens can stay here. Everybody apart from Theresa May has said
:40:27. > :40:31.that, but she happens to be frontrunner. We can do practical
:40:32. > :40:34.things. The Scottish Government along with the University of
:40:35. > :40:39.Scotland has said that EU students coming here this summer, if they
:40:40. > :40:42.come during the year, their fees will be paid as part of the system
:40:43. > :40:46.we have in Scotland and they shouldn't be frightened of coming
:40:47. > :40:48.here, because they will be welcome. Those are immediate things we can
:40:49. > :40:53.do. We have to send out signals here Those are immediate things we can
:40:54. > :40:58.and now that we are welcoming to EU citizens to come here and study. The
:40:59. > :41:07.last couple of points from the audience before another question.
:41:08. > :41:14.I'm a EU National myself and I think it's important that we remain even
:41:15. > :41:17.if we leave the EU, so that international relationships with
:41:18. > :41:23.Scotland are well maintained. Thank you, down at the front. Is it not
:41:24. > :41:28.the case that Scotland's ageing population and particular skill
:41:29. > :41:35.shortages mean we need to set our own immigration policy. It's about
:41:36. > :41:37.skills in different sectors. That's why under the default settlement we
:41:38. > :41:43.have been pushing for the work these why under the default settlement we
:41:44. > :41:49.are being extended. -- the work these are. Tom Harris, do you not
:41:50. > :41:54.are being extended. -- the work think that the lack of decent facts
:41:55. > :42:08.in the leave campaign as a whole has left a vacuum for the media to fill
:42:09. > :42:11.with bile? I also think the lack of facts, some of which you said were
:42:12. > :42:16.on your website, but some have been conveniently deleted since the
:42:17. > :42:21.result, I think people's worst instincts were played on. I don't
:42:22. > :42:29.think that means of people voted to leave, they were uneducated, but we
:42:30. > :42:31.are now seeing a situation, with incidents of xenophobia and racism
:42:32. > :42:37.happening in the streets because of your campaign. I want to move on and
:42:38. > :42:43.take another question. That question comes from Jennifer McBride.
:42:44. > :42:46.As a Scottish teacher, I have seen the impact of harsh
:42:47. > :42:54.Will the vote to leave the EU put funds back into Scottish education?
:42:55. > :43:01.It was a key argument of the Leave campaign that as a net contributor
:43:02. > :43:06.to the EU, there would be money coming back to the UK to spend on
:43:07. > :43:10.public services, possibly including education. The NHS was on the side
:43:11. > :43:16.of the vote leave us. Should we have more money to spend? I think the
:43:17. > :43:21.of the vote leave us. Should we have stark relative is, we will not.
:43:22. > :43:26.Looking at the NHS, it was ?350 million per week we would get back
:43:27. > :43:30.to spend on the NHS, and that seems to have disappeared, along with the
:43:31. > :43:34.bus. It's hugely disappointing because a number of people
:43:35. > :43:40.positively voted to leave because they thought that was true. It
:43:41. > :43:43.didn't even take 24 hours for the ringleaders of the Leave campaign to
:43:44. > :43:46.desert that and that's hugely disappointing. I recognise
:43:47. > :43:52.absolutely what you say about education being cut in Scotland. We
:43:53. > :43:55.tried to resist the last budget that easily took ?500 million out of
:43:56. > :44:04.classrooms and education across the country. And leaving is not going to
:44:05. > :44:08.put that money back in. On this business of what was claimed, was it
:44:09. > :44:12.a mistake to suggest all that money would suddenly be available for
:44:13. > :44:17.public services, Tom Harris? Probably. LAUGHTER
:44:18. > :44:22.public services, Tom Harris? Didn't you approve that campaign? I
:44:23. > :44:26.will only be accountable for the Scottish campaign and in Scotland we
:44:27. > :44:31.pointed out the fact that ?1 billion net is paid by Scottish taxpayers,
:44:32. > :44:34.after all the money paid back in, after the rebate, ?1 billion net
:44:35. > :44:42.that the Scottish parliament will now have in the next couple of years
:44:43. > :44:47.to decide what to do with it. It could go to education or other
:44:48. > :44:50.areas, but the fact is MSPs should not be saying black is white because
:44:51. > :44:56.they don't happen to agree with the result. What will happen to the
:44:57. > :45:00.money if the economy continues to decline? It's a ridiculous question
:45:01. > :45:05.because I think the economy will get a lot stronger when we are out of
:45:06. > :45:08.the EU and not attached to a failing Eurozone economy. Nobody knows what
:45:09. > :45:19.the future holds. In your view what was the mistake of the bus and the
:45:20. > :45:22.350 million? That came from the Office of National Statistics pink
:45:23. > :45:27.book, written in black and white. 350 million is the gross figure
:45:28. > :45:33.before the rebate. Why was it a mistake? Because it became the
:45:34. > :45:36.centre of controversy. Instead of having a debate on how we spend the
:45:37. > :45:44.extra money, we end up having this kind of debate... Wasn't it the
:45:45. > :45:52.problem that it was said multiple times? Actually no, we said the net
:45:53. > :45:57.amount was about 10 billion per year, we give that without getting
:45:58. > :46:03.it back. After we spend every single penny the EU sends back, we still
:46:04. > :46:09.have the 10 billion that we will have by not being in the EU. That is
:46:10. > :46:13.a fact. The Leave campaign was sold on a lie, and that was the biggest
:46:14. > :46:23.one, and that's why I think it was a shame. But we have got to deal with
:46:24. > :46:28.going forward. The idea that somehow there will be enormous resources
:46:29. > :46:32.when the UK leaves is some kind of predicated on a false premise. We
:46:33. > :46:37.also want to be part of the single market. If you have that you also
:46:38. > :46:39.have freedom of movement. A lot of discussion here has been about us,
:46:40. > :46:43.have freedom of movement. A lot of either Scotland or the United
:46:44. > :46:47.Kingdom. We have to think about the response from the rest of the
:46:48. > :46:51.European Union. If you want access to the single market, it costs.
:46:52. > :46:54.Norway is one of the biggest contribute as to the EU to have
:46:55. > :47:00.access to the single market. And it's not a member of the EU. It has
:47:01. > :47:03.access to the single market. And a different for Laois and ship. But
:47:04. > :47:07.it has to pay to get there. The idea that we will have all these
:47:08. > :47:12.resources suddenly available. -- different relationship. We will be
:47:13. > :47:17.at the mercy of decisions making, and this would be an excuse to
:47:18. > :47:24.revisit the Barrett formula. That's the money shared across the United
:47:25. > :47:27.Kingdom. Fiona, you can't sit there and is criticised the Leave campaign
:47:28. > :47:29.for one thing and then make up your own stuff. The Barnett Formula was
:47:30. > :47:45.not suggested. The important thing is you cannot
:47:46. > :47:48.cherry pick. Why be discussions with the EU member states and
:47:49. > :47:52.institutions are important. We need to prioritise the issues, whether it
:47:53. > :47:57.is access to the single market and what it is that matters. And.
:47:58. > :48:01.Despite what has happened in the past and where the league campaign
:48:02. > :48:11.has got us, we need to get the best deal for Scotland. -- believes
:48:12. > :48:18.campaign. Lady in the lie that top. -- lilac top. The league campaign is
:48:19. > :48:24.accused of lying. The remain campaign did nothing but come up
:48:25. > :48:34.here and spread fear. We suffered greatly from it. George Osborne
:48:35. > :48:42.stood and gave us a load of rubbish, absolute rubbish. You know it and I
:48:43. > :48:43.know it. The EU is absolutely bent, and totally dysfunctional, at the
:48:44. > :48:57.top. I have got personal experience of
:48:58. > :49:03.it. Michael Gove, 150 600,000 or whatever it is on his expenses. How
:49:04. > :49:08.about up the road to Maryhill, they are going with their bags to get
:49:09. > :49:16.some tomato soup? To live the next day. Why don't we get real, let's
:49:17. > :49:23.get real. The point I wanted to put to add and Tomkins is the point that
:49:24. > :49:29.was made about George Osborne. -- Adam Tomkins. In the Scottish
:49:30. > :49:37.context, 43,000 Scottish jobs could go within two years if we Brexit.
:49:38. > :49:41.Was that a mistake? On education, that is the question a member of the
:49:42. > :49:46.audience asked. The European Union is responsible for many things that
:49:47. > :49:49.it has many serious flaws. Notwithstanding that, I campaign
:49:50. > :49:54.that we should remain within the European Union. One thing it is not
:49:55. > :50:01.responsible for is to state of the Scottish education budget. That is
:50:02. > :50:06.the responsibility of the Scottish Government and has been since the
:50:07. > :50:08.dawn of devolution in 1999 for that if you have problems with the
:50:09. > :50:12.dawn of devolution in 1999 for that Scottish education budget, and I
:50:13. > :50:21.have several, the only door at which you can lay those problems is at the
:50:22. > :50:30.owner Hyslop's door. It is a fault of the SNP. -- Fiona. I do not think
:50:31. > :50:34.we should understand the vote for Brexit as a vote which would trigger
:50:35. > :50:37.the release of a huge amount of public money, either interview Kate
:50:38. > :50:42.or into Scotland. There is one aspect of it which has been
:50:43. > :50:46.overlooked so far and that is important. Both the United Kingdom
:50:47. > :50:50.Parliament and the Scottish Parliament will become more powerful
:50:51. > :50:54.as parliament if we leave the European Union, which we well. There
:50:55. > :50:58.are significant powers that will come to Holyrood, powers
:50:59. > :51:03.overfishing, agriculture and powers over the environment. That will make
:51:04. > :51:10.the Scottish Parliament more powerful. That is something I think
:51:11. > :51:15.the SNP is normally in favour of. George Osborne did not run the
:51:16. > :51:19.remain campaign in Scotland. The principal campaigner for remain was
:51:20. > :51:26.Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister. All of the party leaders in Scotland
:51:27. > :51:32.were in favour of a remain vote. All of the serious parties in Scotland,
:51:33. > :51:37.all the parties represented in the Scottish Parliament. All five
:51:38. > :51:41.leaders campaign together, or at least pose together. Nicola Sturgeon
:51:42. > :51:45.campaigned for a remain vote but recognise this was not a vote about
:51:46. > :51:50.Scotland but the vote about the United Kingdom and went to campaign
:51:51. > :51:54.in London for a remain vote. The idea that this is all the fault of
:51:55. > :52:01.George Osborne is a bit bone in my view. I want to say also something
:52:02. > :52:06.about the idea about how there were not enough facts. -- a bit phoney.
:52:07. > :52:12.There were facts everywhere if you knew where to look. If you looked at
:52:13. > :52:15.the Economist and the Times newspaper, journalists were doing
:52:16. > :52:20.their level best to explain the facts on both sides of the argument.
:52:21. > :52:24.Of course some people voted with their hearts, some of their head.
:52:25. > :52:28.That is democracy. Some people will be emotional, some will be rational.
:52:29. > :52:31.Politics is that is democracy. Some people will be emotional, some will
:52:32. > :52:34.be rational. Politics is a wonderful combination of emotion and reason.
:52:35. > :52:39.The idea we should condemn this vote because of the reasons, without any
:52:40. > :52:44.evidence at all, a tribute to the reasons why people voted. We're not
:52:45. > :52:47.all Democrats. The United Kingdom reasons why people voted. We're not
:52:48. > :52:52.voted to leave the European Union. We should all honour and respect
:52:53. > :52:59.that the salt. Otherwise we do not deserve that label of Democrats. --
:53:00. > :53:04.that result. Do you see opportunities, not to mention extra
:53:05. > :53:06.powers that would come to Holyrood. Firstly, in terms of the question,
:53:07. > :53:14.powers that would come to Holyrood. we got elected is government barely
:53:15. > :53:18.two months ago. The manifesto was to take centre stage you have heard the
:53:19. > :53:21.commitment from the First Minister. The issue and question is, where
:53:22. > :53:26.does that leave us now in terms of where it will happen in the short,
:53:27. > :53:32.medium and long terms in terms of powers? In terms of Scotland's
:53:33. > :53:38.interest, remember 62% of people in Scotland voted to remain. Is that
:53:39. > :53:44.different from wanting Scotland to remain? In terms of looking at our
:53:45. > :53:50.ongoing relationship with Europe, even the most exiting Brexit
:53:51. > :53:55.recognises there has to be a continued relationship with Europe
:53:56. > :53:59.in some shape or form. What we have to do is make sure that in those
:54:00. > :54:03.discussions are looking at those options, once Scotland's is is heard
:54:04. > :54:07.and that is why Nicola Sturgeon had to make sure they're the early doors
:54:08. > :54:12.she did have an opportunity to make that case. We need to make sure on
:54:13. > :54:17.the issues that matter to us, whether agriculture, enterprise or
:54:18. > :54:22.education, we maximise Scotland's interests. There was a big
:54:23. > :54:26.difference. One issue around the cost element. Horizon 2020, the
:54:27. > :54:31.brightest and the best looking forward to a future economy, we will
:54:32. > :54:36.lose out, unless we come to an arrangement where it is important to
:54:37. > :54:43.us. Is that more important? It may well be. That is why we have to be
:54:44. > :54:47.at the table arguing a case. What do you say to Scottish fishermen who
:54:48. > :54:54.were told today they would try to get the best possible deal in the EE
:54:55. > :54:58.when they voted to come out of the Eucharist and I think SNP ministers
:54:59. > :55:16.should be running the Scottish fishing ministry. -- be -- the EU. I
:55:17. > :55:21.know every part of the Scottish industry voted to remain. This
:55:22. > :55:29.amended not vote to remain. You're going to get letters tomorrow. All
:55:30. > :55:36.right. I'm sure she will send full some supplies. One last question
:55:37. > :55:44.from Graham. Has the establishment been fatally wounded by Brexit? By
:55:45. > :55:51.establishment you mean...? Governments, civil servants, banks.
:55:52. > :55:55.I genuinely think we live in hugely uncertain times. I don't know who
:55:56. > :55:59.will be damaged out of this. The one thing I do know is the reality of
:56:00. > :56:05.what is happening today is that people are losing jobs. OK, I know
:56:06. > :56:09.of one young man, given an engineering opportunity in Europe
:56:10. > :56:15.now has had that opportunity taken away. I know of one firm in Scotland
:56:16. > :56:22.is paid in dollars has had that contract cut in half. That is the
:56:23. > :56:26.reality. To suggest, as somebody once did, that voting leave was some
:56:27. > :56:32.kind of antiestablishment vote. You only need to look at Michael Gove
:56:33. > :56:34.and Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage was you couldn't get more
:56:35. > :56:42.establishment than those three figures. -- Nigel Farage. My genuine
:56:43. > :56:49.fear is that the consequences are not felt by them. They are felt by
:56:50. > :56:54.working people in this country. That is absolutely something we need to
:56:55. > :56:57.guard against. Already, many in the Tory Party, some of their leadership
:56:58. > :57:02.candidates, had talked about reducing workers' rights. They see
:57:03. > :57:07.this as an opportunity. I see this as a challenge that must be
:57:08. > :57:12.resisted. I think one of the things going forward is to remember that
:57:13. > :57:17.people will have voted leave for different reasons. I think some
:57:18. > :57:23.people did vote leave to have what they thought was a cop asleep at the
:57:24. > :57:26.establishment and primarily the UK establishment. One of the things
:57:27. > :57:32.about the UK establishment is that it finds ways of reinventing itself.
:57:33. > :57:36.It reinvents itself potentially in how the establishment made sure that
:57:37. > :57:41.interest were protected by new Labour in the 80s and 90s. It is
:57:42. > :57:44.reinventing itself by perhaps looking at the leadership within the
:57:45. > :57:48.Conservative Party. That is a danger when you have a political setup and
:57:49. > :57:52.system within the United Kingdom that preserves and promotes the
:57:53. > :57:57.establishment and sometimes they use vertical parties at UK level to do
:57:58. > :58:02.that. I am very refreshed that the Scottish Parliament is different and
:58:03. > :58:12.we do not have that. We are pressed for time, in our final minutes. I
:58:13. > :58:22.need to bring in our other two analysts. On the remain and leave,
:58:23. > :58:27.who will be leader of the Conservative Party? I think that is
:58:28. > :58:32.the biggest betrayal, not just to remain voters but also to leave
:58:33. > :58:39.voters. I think the Brexit vote is a very significant shot. -- shock. Not
:58:40. > :58:43.to be establishment but to every political party in the United
:58:44. > :58:48.Kingdom. I have lost my leader, David Cameron. It is not the result
:58:49. > :58:53.the Assembly wanted all the Scottish Labour Party wanted. Goodness knows
:58:54. > :58:59.what result Jeremy Corbyn wanted! More important than that, it is a
:59:00. > :59:02.shock to parliamentary democracy. Looking at the Scottish campaign, we
:59:03. > :59:08.had three MSPs supporting believe campaign. We still managed to get
:59:09. > :59:10.more than a million votes for leave. It is a huge kick in the teeth for
:59:11. > :59:13.the establishment because people are not listening to political leaders
:59:14. > :59:23.anymore was that that is not happening. There will have to leave
:59:24. > :59:28.it. My thanks to the four on our panel. Thanks to you for watching.
:59:29. > :59:33.More debate and discussion in the weeks ahead or on the BBC Scotland
:59:34. > :59:33.news website. From all of us here in Glasgow, good night.
:59:34. > :00:15.APPLAUSE Forces of Nature,
:00:16. > :00:19.starting tonight at 9:00.