Election 2017 - Scottish Leaders' Debate

:00:09. > :00:14.Tonight, with less than three weeks to go until the general election,

:00:15. > :00:18.the leaders of Scotland's six largest parties face the voters.

:00:19. > :00:47.Welcome to the Scottish leaders debate.

:00:48. > :00:53.Good evening. Welcome to Mansfield in Edinburgh, where over the next 90

:00:54. > :00:57.minutes we will explore some of the major issues in this election, with

:00:58. > :01:03.the help of our invited audience, and our panel. On day for the SNP we

:01:04. > :01:08.had Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. For the Scottish

:01:09. > :01:12.Conservatives, Ruth Davidson. For the Scottish Labour Party, Kezia

:01:13. > :01:16.Dugdale. Representing the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Willie Rennie.

:01:17. > :01:17.This Ukip David Coburn and for the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.

:01:18. > :01:30.APPLAUSE We also want all of you to join in

:01:31. > :01:35.at home. You can argue along with the debate using social media. The

:01:36. > :01:38.hashtag is leaders debate. We will come back shortly and take opening

:01:39. > :01:42.statements from all of Our panel, but first Jackie Bird is with the

:01:43. > :01:47.watching press. Thank you. From the majesty of the

:01:48. > :01:52.debating hall to be more modest surroundings of the press room or

:01:53. > :01:55.the so-called spin room. It's here that the journalists and bloggers

:01:56. > :01:58.and party politicians will be scrutinising the performances of

:01:59. > :02:03.their party leaders and crafting Tamara's headlines. I feel a bit

:02:04. > :02:05.like the headteacher. I will be gauging their reaction and quizzing

:02:06. > :02:10.the commentators through the programme. First to our political

:02:11. > :02:15.editor Brian Taylor. Debates like this are still pretty new in the UK.

:02:16. > :02:20.How much can they influence what happens at the ballot box? If you

:02:21. > :02:23.look at it this way, we are in the middle of manifesto season, the

:02:24. > :02:27.parties are putting out lists of policies. If you like, the election

:02:28. > :02:32.at one level is about voters choosing from those list of

:02:33. > :02:35.policies. That is a tick box, like ordering a book online. Elections

:02:36. > :02:40.and politics are about far more than that. They are about the unforeseen,

:02:41. > :02:45.the unexpected and coping with the unforeseen and unexpected. That

:02:46. > :02:51.takes leadership and character. In a way, TV debates get to the root of

:02:52. > :02:53.that, the offer of character and the offer of leadership, the offer of

:02:54. > :02:58.confidence that those politicians and parties are able to cope with.

:02:59. > :03:03.What they can't foresee but what might arise. How will the

:03:04. > :03:06.politicians have prepared? In two ways, attack and defence. Defending

:03:07. > :03:10.what they might expect their opponents will see as weak points in

:03:11. > :03:14.their own armoury, weaknesses in their policy framework but I'm sure

:03:15. > :03:18.they will have also prepared attack lines are having a go at their

:03:19. > :03:22.rivals, wounding them and bringing them down. It is gladder tutorial.

:03:23. > :03:27.We look forward to it. Fingers poised over many keyboards. Das mag

:03:28. > :03:30.it is gladiatorial. We will have a look later at how the headlines my

:03:31. > :03:34.Mac. We will begin with the opening

:03:35. > :03:38.statements. We have asked all of the party leaders to prepare one and

:03:39. > :03:42.hold them strictly they only have 45 seconds to do it. First up, leader

:03:43. > :03:46.of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. On the 8th of June you will elect

:03:47. > :03:50.MPs to represent Scotland at Westminster. You can choose MPs who

:03:51. > :03:55.will do what Theresa May once or SNP MPs who will stand up for Scotland.

:03:56. > :04:00.In the years ahead it will be vital to have strong voices for Scotland

:04:01. > :04:04.at Westminster. MPs who will keep a Tory government in check. A Tory

:04:05. > :04:09.government that we know from long experience, will not had Scotland's

:04:10. > :04:13.best interests at heart. A vote for the SNP will back our plan to end

:04:14. > :04:17.the Tory cuts that are holding our economy back, is damaging our public

:04:18. > :04:20.services and pushing more people into poverty. A vote for the SNP

:04:21. > :04:27.will strengthen Scotland's and against an extreme Brexit and will

:04:28. > :04:33.protect Scotland's right to make our own decisions. Now, more than ever,

:04:34. > :04:38.it is vital to have strong SNP voices standing up for Scotland.

:04:39. > :04:38.Nicola Sturgeon, thank you very much for that.

:04:39. > :04:51.APPLAUSE Next we have Kezia Dugdale, leader

:04:52. > :04:55.of the Scottish Labour Party. I voted to remain in the European

:04:56. > :05:00.Union and against independence. Like hundreds of thousands of you. But

:05:01. > :05:04.what we have this had Brexit and the SNP hell-bent on a second

:05:05. > :05:08.independence referendum. You are worried about your job, about your

:05:09. > :05:13.family's finances, their future and the rising cost of living. I want a

:05:14. > :05:16.Labour government. The Tories will be back and there will be more

:05:17. > :05:21.destructive than ever before. So who do you want to stand up to the

:05:22. > :05:27.Tories? Labour MPs who understand your life, because they've lived it?

:05:28. > :05:31.Or SNP MPs who will use every bit of Tory cruelty to exploit the case for

:05:32. > :05:36.independence? You can reject the Tories and a second independence

:05:37. > :05:40.referendum by voting Labour on the 8th of June. Kezia Dugdale, thank

:05:41. > :05:46.you. APPLAUSE Now let's hear from the Scottish

:05:47. > :05:49.Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson. Thank you. This election offers a

:05:50. > :05:53.major opportunity for Scotland, giving us to move on from the

:05:54. > :05:56.divisions of the past and face the challenges ahead together. Improving

:05:57. > :05:59.Scotland's schools, boosting our economy and getting the best deal

:06:00. > :06:05.possible as we leave the European Union. I say, we can meet those

:06:06. > :06:08.challenges but we can't do it if we're divided. Nicola Sturgeon said

:06:09. > :06:13.she is putting independence at the heart of her campaign. I said,

:06:14. > :06:21.enough. Fix our schools, don't split up our country. Champion our

:06:22. > :06:23.business, don't put a boarder at Berwick. At this election we can

:06:24. > :06:26.send the SNP a message they can't ignore, and with your help, we can

:06:27. > :06:30.stop them, and in so doing we can get back to the issues that really

:06:31. > :06:36.matter. Thank you. Ruth Davidson, thank you. APPLAUSE

:06:37. > :06:40.Now going to invite the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie

:06:41. > :06:44.Rennie to give his opening statement.

:06:45. > :06:49.This is a chance to change the direction of the country, to build a

:06:50. > :06:52.brighter future, to turn away from another divisive independence

:06:53. > :06:56.referendum and a damaging hard Brexit. Instead, with our modest

:06:57. > :07:00.penny on tax we can invest in our people. To get Scottish education

:07:01. > :07:05.back to the best in the world again. So that people can have the skills

:07:06. > :07:09.to drive our economy. To get people the mental health treatment that

:07:10. > :07:14.they need, so that they can contribute as well. In so many seats

:07:15. > :07:18.across the country, it is a straight choice between the Liberal Democrats

:07:19. > :07:22.and the SNP. We can win those seats. We can change the direction of the

:07:23. > :07:25.country. We can have that brighter future. Willie Rennie, thank you

:07:26. > :07:36.very much. APPLAUSE Now it is the turn of Ukip's leader

:07:37. > :07:43.in Scotland, David Coburn. Ukip is the party Brexit. We must

:07:44. > :07:49.elect Ukip to the Commons to ensure Brexit means exit. Ukip wants to

:07:50. > :07:51.expand the economy by creating new and exciting free trade agreements

:07:52. > :07:56.with growing economies around the world. This is the only -- any

:07:57. > :08:04.possible for out of the EU single market. Trust us to bring us out of

:08:05. > :08:09.the EU and Brighouse on to Scotland and England. Tories, Labour, SNP and

:08:10. > :08:13.the Greens all remain as macro and got it wrong. Ukip want sovereignty

:08:14. > :08:17.over British laws to British hands. Ukip is a party of the British

:08:18. > :08:22.union. We are completely opposed to a second Scottish independence

:08:23. > :08:25.referendum. Taxes in Scotland should be no higher than the rest of the

:08:26. > :08:31.UK. If possible, make them lower. We must be able to compete. Scotland

:08:32. > :08:35.has decided, we voted to remain British and British we remain. Thank

:08:36. > :08:40.you. Thank you, David Coburn. APPLAUSE

:08:41. > :08:46.And finally, for the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.

:08:47. > :08:50.Thank you, Sarah. Scotland needs a green voice at Westminster. We have

:08:51. > :08:54.achieved a huge number of social and environmental protections in Europe.

:08:55. > :08:57.This will be in the hands of a hard right Tory government hell-bent on a

:08:58. > :09:01.bonfire of the regulations, that will literally put people's lives on

:09:02. > :09:05.the line. We also need to oppose their cuts agenda, it's destroying

:09:06. > :09:10.people's lives but it's also a failure to invest in the sustainable

:09:11. > :09:14.future our economy needs. All these other parties have voted for

:09:15. > :09:17.subsidies and tax breaks to the big polluters. We need to be investing

:09:18. > :09:23.and have a plan to invest in generating over 200,000 new jobs in

:09:24. > :09:28.the sustainable economy. Finally, we need a social security system worthy

:09:29. > :09:31.of the name, based on a universal Basic income. That will enable

:09:32. > :09:35.everyone to live dignity, free from the pier fear of poverty. Everyone

:09:36. > :09:41.has a right to that decent future and Greens will stand up for that if

:09:42. > :09:47.you put the first Green voice of Scotland into Westminster.

:09:48. > :09:51.APPLAUSE Thank you very much Patrick Harvie

:09:52. > :09:53.and to all of our panellists for that.

:09:54. > :09:57.Let's pick up on some of what you had to say. Everyone mentioned

:09:58. > :10:03.Brexit, unsurprisingly. Nicola Sturgeon, you were warning of an

:10:04. > :10:06.extreme Brexit. You know a million Scots voted to leave the European

:10:07. > :10:11.Union. You talk about trying to stay in the EU single market. Should

:10:12. > :10:15.people who voted for Brexit not vote SNP at this election? I think

:10:16. > :10:19.whether people voted Leave or Remain at the EU referendum, at this

:10:20. > :10:23.election they should vote SNP for the reason it will strengthen

:10:24. > :10:26.Scotland's hand in this Brexit negotiations. We know that the

:10:27. > :10:32.Tories are now no longer just pursuing Brexit. They are in hock to

:10:33. > :10:36.Ukip, so they are now pursuing the most extreme form of Brexit. We also

:10:37. > :10:41.know that will put tens of thousands of Scottish jobs on the line, it

:10:42. > :10:44.will lower Scottish living standards, it will make it harder

:10:45. > :10:49.for our produce and exports to get to market. So however you voted last

:10:50. > :10:53.year, if you want to make sure that Scotland's voice can't be ignored in

:10:54. > :10:56.these negotiations and strengthen this Scottish hand so that we can

:10:57. > :11:00.make sure Scottish interests are absolutely at the heart of the talks

:11:01. > :11:05.over the next few months. How does a vote for the do that? SNP Theresa

:11:06. > :11:13.May has dismissed the plan for keeping Scotland in a single market

:11:14. > :11:16.and said there is no seat at the negotiating table for you. How will

:11:17. > :11:18.the assembly change that? This election gives us the opportunity to

:11:19. > :11:21.send a message to Theresa May that says Scotland will not be ignored in

:11:22. > :11:24.these talks. As you rightly say, we put forward compromise proposals,

:11:25. > :11:28.proposals that would have accepted that Scotland, with the rest of the

:11:29. > :11:32.UK, was leaving the EU but that would have kept us in the single

:11:33. > :11:35.market. Stayed within the single market is so important to jobs and

:11:36. > :11:39.to investment and to living standards in Scotland. That's why

:11:40. > :11:43.the week after the referendum, Ruth Davidson in the Scottish Parliament

:11:44. > :11:47.challenged me to do everything I could to protect our place in the

:11:48. > :11:51.single market. Unfortunately she now no longer supports our place in the

:11:52. > :11:54.single market. My message, however people voted last year in the

:11:55. > :11:58.referendum, strengthen my hand to make sure Scotland's voice is heard

:11:59. > :12:02.and proposals to protect Scottish jobs are at the centre of these

:12:03. > :12:07.negotiations. Let's not allowed jobs and our economy to be sacrificed on

:12:08. > :12:12.the altar of a Tory party trying to curry favour with Ukip voters.

:12:13. > :12:15.Ruth Davidson, you were a passionate Remainer in the referendum and after

:12:16. > :12:19.the referendum result you said you wanted the UK to stay in the EU

:12:20. > :12:22.single market. Have you changed your mind about that? The reason for that

:12:23. > :12:27.is I want Scottish businesses to be able to trade freely abroad. We have

:12:28. > :12:29.heard the Prime Minister's plan of how she will conduct Brexit

:12:30. > :12:33.negotiations that include a free trade deal with the other 27. We can

:12:34. > :12:36.quibble about the framework that as long as Scottish businesses have

:12:37. > :12:49.free access to that, I'm on board with that.

:12:50. > :12:53.I can't honestly believe what I'm hearing from my right hand side.

:12:54. > :12:55.Nicola Sturgeon, the very morning the Brexit result was announced,

:12:56. > :12:57.said she had already instructed civil servants in Scotland to draw

:12:58. > :13:00.up the necessary legislation for an independence referendum. She says if

:13:01. > :13:02.you voted for or against Leave or remain, all I have seen his/her

:13:03. > :13:07.ignoring the votes of levers and taking Remain votes. This is a

:13:08. > :13:10.serious issue and we need serious people run the table. There will

:13:11. > :13:15.only be two people leading this negotiation, it will be Theresa May

:13:16. > :13:19.or Jeremy Corbyn. That is alive. Ruth Davidson said in an interview,

:13:20. > :13:22.I think the BBC, if she would take part in these negotiations, she said

:13:23. > :13:24.Scotland's voice should be represented by the Scottish

:13:25. > :13:28.Government. The First Minister should play her full part. It seems

:13:29. > :13:32.to me Ruth Davidson started out opposing Brexit but then saying we

:13:33. > :13:35.should stay in the single market. Now she opposes staying in the

:13:36. > :13:38.single market. She used a sake we should have a seat at the

:13:39. > :13:42.negotiating table and now she has changed her mind. It seems to me

:13:43. > :13:48.Ruth Davidson does everything Theresa May tells her to do, which

:13:49. > :13:57.is why we need strong SNP voices at Westminster. APPLAUSE

:13:58. > :14:02.Nicola Sturgeon says she wants a seat at the Brexit table, but she

:14:03. > :14:04.want Scotland to be out of the UK and into Europe. I asked myself over

:14:05. > :14:08.which side of the table does she want to be sat on? When it comes to

:14:09. > :14:12.withhold it and talking about what we want to achieve here, the issue,

:14:13. > :14:16.this compromise agreement she said she wanted to put on the table would

:14:17. > :14:20.have ended the UK internal market. That's why it was rejected. You

:14:21. > :14:25.can't have half of the state in the EU single market and the other

:14:26. > :14:29.half... This is studded up the UK market is worth four times more in

:14:30. > :14:34.trade and five times more in terms of... If you talk over each other

:14:35. > :14:39.nobody can hear you. We heard from you, First Minister. Kezia Dugdale,

:14:40. > :14:44.you're campaigning for Jeremy Corbyn to be elected Prime Minister in less

:14:45. > :14:47.than three weeks' time. Do you think it was -- if it was him in Brussels

:14:48. > :14:52.negotiating Brexit it would be better than Theresa May? I want a

:14:53. > :14:55.Labour government and Labour Prime Minister but I can't let these two

:14:56. > :14:58.get away with what they're saying about price cut. Brexit is just the

:14:59. > :15:02.excuse the First Minister was looking for to have a second

:15:03. > :15:06.independence referendum. After the EU referendum she told us if we had

:15:07. > :15:09.a referendum, Scotland would get to stay in the European Union. Now she

:15:10. > :15:17.tells us we might have to reapply or she might settle for the Norwegian

:15:18. > :15:20.option. She doesn't about this. She's all over the place. Whatever

:15:21. > :15:22.gets us independence is the one thing she will go for at the end of

:15:23. > :15:30.the day. APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Let's takes some

:15:31. > :15:36.questions from the audience. The gentleman in the checked shirt

:15:37. > :15:40.appear. I just wish Ruth would learn to differentiate between access to

:15:41. > :15:43.the Single Market and being part of the Single Market. North Korea has

:15:44. > :15:49.access to the Single Market. It's not the same thing. There is a

:15:50. > :15:56.gentleman in a grey jacket just here, microphone will be with you a

:15:57. > :16:02.moment. We will take a point from this gentleman in the third row. The

:16:03. > :16:07.only national party in my opinion back can take on the Tories against

:16:08. > :16:11.hard Brexit is in fact the Labour Party. The Scottish, no matter how

:16:12. > :16:16.many seats the Scottish Nationalist Party in Scotland there will still

:16:17. > :16:19.be -- they will still be a small party in Westminster and the only

:16:20. > :16:24.party back can take on the Tories, therefore, is the Labour Party and

:16:25. > :16:27.the Jeremy Corbyn. Let's take one more contribution

:16:28. > :16:35.from the back row but there is a gentle man in a shirt and tie in the

:16:36. > :16:39.back row. We voted to stay in Europe, however there wasn't that

:16:40. > :16:42.much information going around that we really debated because a lot of

:16:43. > :16:45.people just had a one-sided argument. Now the vote has been

:16:46. > :16:48.completed I think England would vote to go the other way if they have the

:16:49. > :16:53.opportunity. Do you think they should have the opportunity before

:16:54. > :16:56.the end? That leads as neatly onto the leader of the Scottish Democrats

:16:57. > :16:59.Willie Rennie because it is your policy to have another referendum

:17:00. > :17:04.but there are a lot of people, even those who voted remain, and say that

:17:05. > :17:08.looks like being sore losers, you can't have another referendum if you

:17:09. > :17:11.don't like the results. What we are seeing is because it is such a

:17:12. > :17:15.monumental decision of the British people should have the final say on

:17:16. > :17:18.whatever deal is agreed between the Government and the European Union,

:17:19. > :17:21.because this could have quite a dramatic impact on our security,

:17:22. > :17:26.jobs and environment, even on funding for the NHS. It would be

:17:27. > :17:29.reasonable for the British people to decide rather than a small number of

:17:30. > :17:34.Conservatives accepting whether it is a deal that is good enough for

:17:35. > :17:38.the United Kingdom. I think the British people should have the

:17:39. > :17:42.option to reject a bad deal. I think that is reasonable. We started this

:17:43. > :17:43.process in a democratic way, we should finish it in a democratic

:17:44. > :17:55.way. APPLAUSE

:17:56. > :18:00.David Coburn, for Ukip. You said in your opening statement it was

:18:01. > :18:04.important to elect Ukip MPs, or maybe even one Ukip MP, to make sure

:18:05. > :18:08.that Brexit happens the wake you like it. What do you not like about

:18:09. > :18:13.Theresa May's plans as we currently understand them? Let's be frank,

:18:14. > :18:19.Theresa May and Ruth Davidson were both Remainers and the Tory party

:18:20. > :18:23.wanted to remain within the European Union. Ukip need to be there to make

:18:24. > :18:26.sure that that happens, and only if you've got Ukip there can you be

:18:27. > :18:30.sure that that will happen. Everything you've heard the Prime

:18:31. > :18:32.Minister says it is the EU referendum which laid out the terms

:18:33. > :18:36.for the Brexit negotiations, including leaving the Single Market

:18:37. > :18:41.and ending freedom of movement, what do you disagree from that? First of

:18:42. > :18:45.all today the talk about perhaps extending the fishing limits. We

:18:46. > :18:49.want a 200 mile limit, they are still talking about 25 miles. We

:18:50. > :18:53.don't want that, we want the full fishing limits for Scotland. That's

:18:54. > :18:56.a big business and we need that money and we need that for

:18:57. > :19:02.employment. They are flimflam in about this because they have put a

:19:03. > :19:07.lot of stress on them and they've started putting a lot of debate on

:19:08. > :19:11.it but Ukip need to be there to make sure that happens. Will also need to

:19:12. > :19:14.be there to make sure we get out of the single European market. The only

:19:15. > :19:18.way we can get our own trade deals is to be out of it. Then we can go

:19:19. > :19:23.around the world getting our deals with other countries without having

:19:24. > :19:28.to differ to 27 other countries and that will bring jobs to Scotland and

:19:29. > :19:32.that is absolutely essential. Thank you for that. Let's bring in

:19:33. > :19:36.the co-convener of the Scottish Greens, do you think it's feasible

:19:37. > :19:41.Scotland could still stay in the Single Market and still be part of

:19:42. > :19:43.the UK? Various people have explored options for that. If the UK

:19:44. > :19:47.Government had showed any willingness at all to even negotiate

:19:48. > :19:50.or explore what the options might be and how they could be put into

:19:51. > :19:53.effect we might be having a very different debate. What's going to

:19:54. > :19:59.happen after this UK Parliamentary election is a process by which UK

:20:00. > :20:03.Tory ministers want to take the power to rewrite huge swathes of the

:20:04. > :20:08.laws of these lands without proper Parliamentary scrutiny. Many of them

:20:09. > :20:12.arguing for that bonfire of the regulations. Even some of the

:20:13. > :20:15.actions our councils take trying to look after the quality of our air,

:20:16. > :20:19.some of the most polluted air in Europe is in Scottish cities and

:20:20. > :20:24.those European laws, many of the Tories are arguing to abandon those.

:20:25. > :20:28.When we talk about access to the Single Market as well you will hear

:20:29. > :20:32.the Tories only saying access for big business, access for business to

:20:33. > :20:37.trade. The Single Market is so much more than that, it's one of our

:20:38. > :20:40.rights, right of free movement, it's the legal protections, social,

:20:41. > :20:43.environmental and workplace protections and if you look at some

:20:44. > :20:46.of the free trade deals that all these people are talking about

:20:47. > :20:51.around the world, so many of them have bedded into them the ability

:20:52. > :20:55.for big corporate interests to sue governments for having the nerve to

:20:56. > :20:57.try to protect their citizens. That is not an agenda that will benefit

:20:58. > :21:00.Scotland or the rest of these islands.

:21:01. > :21:08.APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Thank you. Let's go back

:21:09. > :21:12.to our audience and see what they made of that. The gentleman in the

:21:13. > :21:22.front row. You've got to combine the thoughts about the free market with

:21:23. > :21:30.free movement. I can't understand how we can cope with cutting out

:21:31. > :21:34.free movement. How is the NHS, the universities, the service

:21:35. > :21:38.industries, the farmers - how are they going to manage without free

:21:39. > :21:47.movement of people? APPLAUSE

:21:48. > :21:49.MODERATOR: Ruth Davidson, the Conservatives have committed again

:21:50. > :21:54.in the manifesto to keeping immigration to the tens of

:21:55. > :21:58.thousands. How is that going to work for the economy, particularly the

:21:59. > :22:01.Scottish economy which needs immigration? First of all to answer

:22:02. > :22:06.the question the gentleman raises, the situation in the health service

:22:07. > :22:11.predates by a long way the vote that we took last year. For example, the

:22:12. > :22:15.Royal College of Nursing said between 2009 and 2012 the 20% cuts

:22:16. > :22:21.to nursing training placements which happened while Nicola Sturgeon was

:22:22. > :22:25.health Minister, the cut in doctors places have really affected us and

:22:26. > :22:27.will go on to affect us for many years to come. To be fair to the

:22:28. > :22:36.Scottish Government they try to recruit more GPs of them -- last

:22:37. > :22:42.year. This isn't a EU problem, it is a problem made in Scotland. There is

:22:43. > :22:45.a specific policy of reducing immigration below 100,000. Do you

:22:46. > :22:50.agree with that? Net immigration, yes. You do agree with that, you

:22:51. > :22:54.think there are too many people immigrating to the UK at the moment

:22:55. > :22:57.and want to reduce it? We need an immigration system that is trusted

:22:58. > :23:02.and when you lose trust from people that is when you have social unrest.

:23:03. > :23:05.If you are talking about the difference between net immigration

:23:06. > :23:09.and emigration, for example there are currently 438,000 overseas

:23:10. > :23:12.students in our universities but because some come in first year and

:23:13. > :23:16.leave after their degree it is not counted in the total. What I want to

:23:17. > :23:19.see is Scotland to be the most attractive place so we attract the

:23:20. > :23:23.brightest and best. Despite having a third of the landmass of the UK and

:23:24. > :23:28.8.4% of the population we only attract 4% of immigrants to this

:23:29. > :23:32.country. Those are UK Government figures and it is true. National

:23:33. > :23:36.records for Scotland's recently published the figures on inward

:23:37. > :23:40.migration to Scotland, Scotland has 8% of the UK population, last year

:23:41. > :23:44.we had 7% of the total oversee migrants coming to Scotland, check

:23:45. > :23:48.the figures. The fact of the matter here is the proposal the Tories have

:23:49. > :23:51.put forward in the manifesto, which I am astounded to hear Ruth Davidson

:23:52. > :23:54.support, would be devastating for the Scottish economy. Immigration

:23:55. > :23:59.isn't an easy subject for politicians because people have

:24:00. > :24:04.concerns. But politicians have a duty to be honest about this. When

:24:05. > :24:06.we talk about migrants, when it is people from this country going

:24:07. > :24:11.overseas we talk about expats but when we talk about migrants here we

:24:12. > :24:14.are talking about people working in our hospitals, people serving us in

:24:15. > :24:17.our restaurants, we are talking about our friends and our neighbours

:24:18. > :24:23.and the language around immigration I think is shocking. Now, we have a

:24:24. > :24:28.need in this country to grow our population. If EU migration was to

:24:29. > :24:33.be ended over the next 25 years. Nobody is talking about ending it.

:24:34. > :24:37.We would see are working age population fall while our pension

:24:38. > :24:40.age population is due to go up by 50%. That would be an economic

:24:41. > :24:44.catastrophe. I think it's disgraceful we have a Tory party

:24:45. > :24:49.that plays to Ukip and in doing so... I have always said we are a

:24:50. > :24:52.welcoming country... APPLAUSE

:24:53. > :25:00.I have always said that... I have always said... This is the point at

:25:01. > :25:04.which... Nobody can hear you when you are talking over each other. She

:25:05. > :25:12.is putting forward a strong delegation. Stop it! Stop it! You

:25:13. > :25:15.are talking over each other, letters commonly go to David Coburn on the

:25:16. > :25:19.immigration reduction. Can I just say we want a

:25:20. > :25:23.points-based system, the fairest way to bring in people and you can bring

:25:24. > :25:27.in people from the old Commonwealth as well. It is a good idea and we

:25:28. > :25:30.base it on the people we need, no reason we can't bring people in if

:25:31. > :25:33.we need them but the difference of being in the European Union and not

:25:34. > :25:36.is that with the European Union we cannot choose, it is open-door

:25:37. > :25:43.immigration and we can't control the numbers of people coming in or who

:25:44. > :25:49.are, or if they are terrorists... Let Kezia Dugdale have her say. Let

:25:50. > :25:52.me finish. We want to have the choice to bring in the right people

:25:53. > :25:55.into our country and make sure they are good citizens and will integrate

:25:56. > :26:03.in society. David Coburn, you have made your point. We should welcome

:26:04. > :26:05.them because there are 180,000 EU nationals in Scotland today on the

:26:06. > :26:07.first thing a Labour government would do is guarantee their right to

:26:08. > :26:17.stay. APPLAUSE

:26:18. > :26:24.MODERATOR: Do you then... We don't want to get rid of them. We know

:26:25. > :26:29.your point, we have heard from you. David, Kezia Dugdale, is it the

:26:30. > :26:32.Labour Party's policy to reduce immigration to the UK? We don't have

:26:33. > :26:36.a cap and we have recognised the rights of EU nationals to stay in

:26:37. > :26:39.the country because of the tremendous conjugation Ben May, they

:26:40. > :26:42.work in our hospitals and businesses and many of them have worked here

:26:43. > :26:44.for years and the last thing we should do is treat them like

:26:45. > :26:50.bargaining chips, which is exactly what is happening here. -- the

:26:51. > :26:55.tremendous contribution they make. APPLAUSE

:26:56. > :26:58.MODERATOR: Willie Rennie. Just up the road from where Ruth was brought

:26:59. > :27:04.up is one of the best universities in the world. Now, about a fifth of

:27:05. > :27:08.their staff come from outside the United Kingdom from the European

:27:09. > :27:10.Union. About a fifth of the researchers come from the European

:27:11. > :27:14.Union at crucially students as well come from the European Union. What

:27:15. > :27:19.they are proposing with their extreme Huybrechts it is undermining

:27:20. > :27:23.one of the best universities in the world and I'm astonished about what

:27:24. > :27:28.Ruth Davidson has said. Last year during the referendum on Europe she

:27:29. > :27:32.called Boris Johnson a liar on three occasions. Now she's standing with

:27:33. > :27:35.him arguing for an extreme Huybrechts it. She's talking about

:27:36. > :27:40.the opportunities that it presents to this country. -- hard Brexit. If

:27:41. > :27:44.Boris was lying then does that mean Ruth is lying now?

:27:45. > :27:50.APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Very quickly, Ruth. I

:27:51. > :27:53.will use a specific example, it is shameful he is trying to

:27:54. > :27:58.scaremonger, EU nationals living here will not have their status

:27:59. > :28:03.changed. Research money and... Why has it taken a year to come to that?

:28:04. > :28:08.It's astonishing. In the manifesto research and development money is

:28:09. > :28:11.going up. I am answering the question... Research and development

:28:12. > :28:16.money is going up, in terms of students, it's part of net

:28:17. > :28:20.migration, 438,000 currently here and they don't go into the figures.

:28:21. > :28:24.You are wrong on the council you have used. I will have to move on

:28:25. > :28:27.the debate at this point. The other issue which is of course dominating

:28:28. > :28:31.this campaign is the question of whether or not there should be a

:28:32. > :28:34.second referendum on Scottish independence. Unsurprisingly because

:28:35. > :28:37.the election is happening only a couple of months after the Scottish

:28:38. > :28:42.Parliament voted in favour of having another referendum. Nicola Sturgeon,

:28:43. > :28:47.is this election about whether or not we should have a second

:28:48. > :28:50.referendum? Is a vote for the SNP saying you do want another

:28:51. > :28:54.independence referendum? This election is about whether Scotland's

:28:55. > :28:57.future is decided by the Scottish people in the Scottish Parliament

:28:58. > :29:00.ought by Theresa May and her wince Minster government force of our

:29:01. > :29:04.future should always be in the hands of the Scottish people. I think

:29:05. > :29:08.Scotland should have a choice at the end of the Brexit process because

:29:09. > :29:11.the alternative to that is that we simply have to take it or leave it,

:29:12. > :29:15.or we don't get the chance to leave it, we have to like it or lump it no

:29:16. > :29:19.matter how bad the deal turns out to be, even if Theresa May ends up

:29:20. > :29:22.walking away with no deal. So I believe we should have a choice and

:29:23. > :29:28.I think that's fair and democratic. But there is the other opportunity

:29:29. > :29:31.in the election, which is to give Scotland the opportunity to

:29:32. > :29:34.influence Brexit negotiations. That is why I say again, no matter how

:29:35. > :29:38.you voted last year, no matter how you voted in 2014, if you want

:29:39. > :29:42.Scotland to have the strongest possible voice in these negotiations

:29:43. > :29:45.vote SNP and strengthen Scotland's and.

:29:46. > :29:52.APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Now, I understand why...

:29:53. > :29:55.I understand you don't want to make this election on referendum on

:29:56. > :29:59.whether or not we should have another referendum but a vote for

:30:00. > :30:03.the SNP is voting to say you want a second referendum. I don't think I'm

:30:04. > :30:07.making any secret that, I've just set out the position, it was in the

:30:08. > :30:10.SNP's manifesto for the Holyrood election last year and we've won

:30:11. > :30:13.that election with the biggest share of the constituency vote than any

:30:14. > :30:19.party had the.. The Scottish Parliament endorsed that position,

:30:20. > :30:22.so this is about and democracy. The fact of the matter is when Ruth

:30:23. > :30:26.Davidson talks about independence in this campaign she is using it as a

:30:27. > :30:29.smoke screen. She says I talk about nothing else. The truth is she talks

:30:30. > :30:34.so much about independence that I can't get a word in edgeways to talk

:30:35. > :30:42.about it. I've got a Tory leaflet here. This has come through

:30:43. > :30:46.everybody's door. It's a 4-page Tory leaflet and it mentions an

:30:47. > :30:51.independence referendum 26 times. It doesn't mention the NHS ones, it

:30:52. > :30:54.doesn't mention education once, it doesn't mention Tory welfare cuts

:30:55. > :30:58.once, it doesn't mention the removal of the pensions triple lock once.

:30:59. > :31:03.Ruth Davidson is using independence as a smoke screen in this campaign

:31:04. > :31:04.because she knows the Tory record and Tory policies are toxic.

:31:05. > :31:24.APPLAUSE Ruth Davidson. It is true you are

:31:25. > :31:28.making independence absolutely central to your campaign. It is in

:31:29. > :31:33.the Block capital letters of every Tory leader I've seen. May I say

:31:34. > :31:40.something? No you may not, she is asking me a question. No, no, the

:31:41. > :31:43.question is the Ruth Davidson. There's a simple way, if people want

:31:44. > :31:46.me to stop fighting independence, there is a simple way to make that

:31:47. > :31:51.happen. Take the second referendum of the table. Do what you promised

:31:52. > :31:54.the people of Scotland you said you would do and respect the result. I

:31:55. > :31:59.stood here with you on a platform just like this a year ago, and you

:32:00. > :32:03.looked down a camera and said to the audience, you promised the people

:32:04. > :32:06.there was no change in support for independence, there wouldn't be

:32:07. > :32:10.another independence referendum. Everyone can remember you standing

:32:11. > :32:14.that before the election site, don't worry, it's safe to vote SNP, if

:32:15. > :32:28.there is no change in support for independence there will

:32:29. > :32:32.be no referendum. My manifesto... You came out and you are back at it

:32:33. > :32:34.again. You only want one thing. This is the only one thing you've wanted

:32:35. > :32:37.in your entire political career. They said no. The country said no

:32:38. > :32:40.and you will listen to them. Let's go to somebody in the audience. Vote

:32:41. > :32:42.for the Scottish Conservatives we can stop her. BOOING

:32:43. > :32:46.There is a lady in the back row with her hand up. I seem to remember Ruth

:32:47. > :32:51.Fred Davidson before the last election saying we would have to

:32:52. > :32:59.vote no to stay in the EU. Things change. -- Ruth Davidson before the

:33:00. > :33:03.last election. I think it is shameful Scottish Labour and the

:33:04. > :33:11.Scottish Conservatives are using the independence question to hide behind

:33:12. > :33:18.their actual manifestos. APPLAUSE And the chap at the end of the road.

:33:19. > :33:21.Yes, you sir. I'd like to know from the First Minister how she'd like to

:33:22. > :33:28.fill in the Budget deficit of 15 billion that has occurred. It's

:33:29. > :33:32.unexplained, I'm not saying we should either have independence or

:33:33. > :33:36.not, but I would like some abject fiscal honesty on the way that you

:33:37. > :33:39.are running this campaign. That is probably a question for a

:33:40. > :33:43.different election. But let's take somebody else. A lady in the middle

:33:44. > :33:47.there. Is part of the reason why the

:33:48. > :33:51.Conservatives are talking so much, not talking about the NHS and

:33:52. > :33:54.education is because that's the devolved issue that's your

:33:55. > :33:57.responsibility, being in power in the Scottish parliament. You should

:33:58. > :33:59.be looking after our hospitals but you're not, you're banging on about

:34:00. > :34:08.independence all the. I would like to ask your broker

:34:09. > :34:13.question. First I would like to say, you think your perceived obsession

:34:14. > :34:17.with independence might cost you your seat in this election question

:34:18. > :34:22.at second gap like to ask, the NHS, you say you've ploughed millions

:34:23. > :34:26.into it. I'm a nurse. I can't manage on the salary I have. I have to go

:34:27. > :34:30.to food banks. I am struggling to pay bills. I want you to explain to

:34:31. > :34:34.me, do you know one area where that money has gone. Can you tell me,

:34:35. > :34:37.because I can absolutely assure you, nurses are seeing none of it on the

:34:38. > :34:45.ground floor. APPLAUSE

:34:46. > :34:52.And I say something quickly? We will get to discuss the health service

:34:53. > :34:57.later quite specifically. Nicola, she talks all the time about

:34:58. > :35:04.independence, but she's not, she wants rule by Europe by European

:35:05. > :35:07.bureaucrats. She's not interested in rule by Holyrood or Westminster, she

:35:08. > :35:13.wants to be ruled by Brussels. So whatever she's saying is nonsense.

:35:14. > :35:17.Patrick Harvie. You began by asking what is the

:35:18. > :35:21.central issue in this election, and of the many people I've been

:35:22. > :35:26.speaking to, I think at one level people are feeling pretty tired with

:35:27. > :35:29.the number of votes there have been in the last few years on the

:35:30. > :35:34.Forsstrom it is made, whether it was vote no to stay in Europe or Vote

:35:35. > :35:37.Leave to get 350 million extra for the NHS. I think people are

:35:38. > :35:42.understandably feeling pretty cynical all of that. But many very

:35:43. > :35:45.many of them are raising the issue is the UK Government has been

:35:46. > :35:49.responsible for. Whether that is cuts to the welfare and social

:35:50. > :35:55.security system, things like the family cap and the rape clause, the

:35:56. > :35:58.inequality in our society pushing up house prices, that's not something

:35:59. > :36:01.we can solve just with a building programme was that we need to

:36:02. > :36:04.provide more housing, but there's so much more about the inequality in

:36:05. > :36:08.our economy that needs to be fixed and that the UK Government is

:36:09. > :36:11.responsible for making worse. As well as that, we have people

:36:12. > :36:15.struggling on poverty wages and people both in and out of work are

:36:16. > :36:20.being exploited in this incredibly unequal society. There's a huge

:36:21. > :36:25.amount that we need to change, that the UK Government is responsible for

:36:26. > :36:27.and I want to be putting forward positive ideas, like a universal

:36:28. > :36:30.Basic income, that would make our society more equal in the first

:36:31. > :36:34.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

:36:35. > :36:43.Why then, Patrick Harvie, are you standing only three candidates in

:36:44. > :36:45.Scotland in this election, if you feel so passionately about what

:36:46. > :36:49.needs to be changed? Is it because you don't want to split the

:36:50. > :36:53.pro-independence vote in some constituencies could you not find

:36:54. > :36:57.enough people to stand? I regret the fact we don't have more candidates

:36:58. > :36:59.to stand in this election. We are committed to our hard work in

:37:00. > :37:02.getting councillors around Scotland that they had more councillors

:37:03. > :37:33.elected than ever before. Right in the middle of a local election

:37:34. > :37:37.campaign, when other parties are trying to turn that into a proxy for

:37:38. > :37:39.the independence debate, local democracy really matters, we were

:37:40. > :37:41.committed to that. Right in the middle of the campaign, Theresa May

:37:42. > :37:44.in contempt for democracy, decided to call a snap election. A party

:37:45. > :37:47.like ours cannot knock on the doors of millionaires and billionaires.

:37:48. > :37:49.What we can do is knock on the doors of our target seats and we're

:37:50. > :37:52.working very hard on those. I think we have the best chance we have ever

:37:53. > :37:53.had of putting a Green voice in Westminster to represent Scotland.

:37:54. > :37:56.APPLAUSE Kezia Dugdale. The party manifesto

:37:57. > :37:58.is clear, you try and block a second referendum on Scottish independence

:37:59. > :38:00.but the Scottish Parliament has voted in favour of it. How can you

:38:01. > :38:02.democratically justify not allowing it to happen? The Labour Party

:38:03. > :38:04.manifesto we are publishing tomorrow Scotland's most clearly against

:38:05. > :38:08.independence and an independence referendum, because of the ?15

:38:09. > :38:12.billion worth of additional cuts that would, that. If you think live

:38:13. > :38:15.under the Tories is bad, imagine what it would be like under

:38:16. > :38:17.independence with ?15 billion of cuts yet come. I can't ask the

:38:18. > :38:32.people to vote to be poorer. My job is to stand up for poorer

:38:33. > :38:35.people, to stand up for the economy, and that's why the Labour Party will

:38:36. > :38:37.say no to a second independence referendum. Under any circumstances?

:38:38. > :38:41.If a majority SNP government voted in favour, you would still vote no?

:38:42. > :38:46.?15 billion worth of cuts, I cannot ask people in Scotland to be poorer,

:38:47. > :38:50.I won't stand for it, I will always vote against the second independence

:38:51. > :38:54.referendum. There is an argument for saying people shouldn't be given the

:38:55. > :38:56.choice. We spent two and a half years debating it and we said no.

:38:57. > :39:06.People want to move on from that. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:39:07. > :39:08.And you said after the 2016 referendum Scotland voted for both

:39:09. > :39:14.unions... I have to stop you there.

:39:15. > :39:19.Sarah, it took 44 days the Nicola Sturgeon to publish her bill on

:39:20. > :39:25.another independence referendum. It took 15 months for them to write

:39:26. > :39:30.their mental health strategy, which is way out of date. It took two

:39:31. > :39:36.years for us to persuade them to expand nursery into education, fit

:39:37. > :39:40.two year olds. It took six years for us to persuade them about people

:39:41. > :39:46.premium. For the SNP it's always, always independence. Today Brexit is

:39:47. > :39:51.the excuse, every other day it could be any excuse at all. We need to

:39:52. > :39:55.cancel this second divisive independence referendum, because

:39:56. > :40:01.it's dividing our country and setting us back. Here here. APPLAUSE

:40:02. > :40:05.Thank you very much to our panellists for that just now. We

:40:06. > :40:10.will be coming back for more debate here, but first we are going to head

:40:11. > :40:13.over to the press room, where Jackie Bird is waiting with some analysts.

:40:14. > :40:16.Thank you. The journalist here aren't the only wanted something to

:40:17. > :40:21.say about the debate. You have been voicing your opinion on social

:40:22. > :40:25.media. How is it playing out? It's not a surprise to find that

:40:26. > :40:32.many of the people tweeting at home agree with the party they voted for.

:40:33. > :40:35.They asked for neutrals to get involved and I'm not sure any were

:40:36. > :40:40.neutrals. They had some very strong views. One that may be some slap up

:40:41. > :40:45.I have my iPad. It says, based on my timeline every party leader has done

:40:46. > :40:49.an excellent job in opening exchanges and every other one has

:40:50. > :40:53.been terrible. There have also been a lot of

:40:54. > :40:56.interest from down south. This is the Scottish leaders debate and

:40:57. > :41:01.there is one in Westminster as well. Someone from the spectator saying

:41:02. > :41:05.anyone who wants a decent leaders debate should watch this one, better

:41:06. > :41:15.quality of leaders and debate. Thank you. Talking of the spectator, we

:41:16. > :41:20.have a columnist for the Spectator and a former special adviser for

:41:21. > :41:25.Scottish Labour. If I can ask you, much of the debate seems to have

:41:26. > :41:31.centred on differences of opinion between Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth

:41:32. > :41:35.Davidson. Early on Nicola Sturgeon accused Ruth Davidson of doing what

:41:36. > :41:40.Theresa May tells her. Was that a direct it? Ruth Davidson is always

:41:41. > :41:46.at her most awkward, I think, when she was forced on the back foot to

:41:47. > :41:50.defend UK Conservative government policy. There has been no exception

:41:51. > :41:54.to that tonight and immigration and Brexit. It is an area where other

:41:55. > :41:58.parties piled into attack Ruth Davidson and her party. She is much

:41:59. > :42:02.stronger and happier when she can put Nicola Sturgeon on the back foot

:42:03. > :42:05.about plans for a second independence referendum. We saw that

:42:06. > :42:09.earlier tonight. Nicola Sturgeon dominated the first part of the

:42:10. > :42:13.debate, Ruth, with an assist from Kezia Dugdale, who has been very

:42:14. > :42:19.good thus far. There are six politicians on that stage but it is

:42:20. > :42:25.the Ruth and Nicola show so far. All road seem to lead to the issue of

:42:26. > :42:29.indyref2. Yes indeed. This election are supposed to be about Brexit.

:42:30. > :42:32.That is why Theresa May called it. Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of

:42:33. > :42:37.being obsessed with independence. She didn't mention it in her opening

:42:38. > :42:42.remarks. Kezia Dugdale did, Ruth Davidson did... You are a special

:42:43. > :42:47.adviser, would you have advised her not to mention indyref2 question

:42:48. > :42:51.that no, obviously indyref2 will come up in discussion. It is not

:42:52. > :42:56.what this election is about. This election is about Brexit. How much

:42:57. > :43:00.did Kezia Dugdale, how much I she influenced the proceeding so far?

:43:01. > :43:06.Not as much as I would have liked or expected. I do not think the format

:43:07. > :43:11.is doing her many favours. This is the Nicola and Ruth show, as we

:43:12. > :43:15.heard. Kezia Dugdale has three very anxious meant to compete with. David

:43:16. > :43:20.Coburn are very anxious man. I think that is the difficulty for her. What

:43:21. > :43:24.you also seem to die, I think, is the strategy of Nicola, which was

:43:25. > :43:29.very much a core vote strategy. Nothing new, quite formulaic and

:43:30. > :43:34.then get the jab into and Ruth. In 2011 in the Scottish election,

:43:35. > :43:37.everyone on the platform for Iain Gray was going be the beneficiary

:43:38. > :43:43.and that is happening against my, people are turning on Ruth. Is it

:43:44. > :43:47.working? To some extent. I think Nicola is a past mistress of talking

:43:48. > :43:51.over people and getting under their skin and irritating them. I think

:43:52. > :43:55.Ruth has to be careful about that and Kezia Dugdale needs to push away

:43:56. > :44:00.in past David Coburn. Lets see what happens. Let's go back to the

:44:01. > :44:03.debate, round two. Thank you very much for that. We are

:44:04. > :44:07.all sitting a bit more comfortably. For this portion of the show we are

:44:08. > :44:12.going to take the question is not from me but from the audience. The

:44:13. > :44:17.first question that we have is from Louise Perry.

:44:18. > :44:23.Where does the fault lies the recent failings of numerous Iain schools?

:44:24. > :44:26.First Minister. The responsibility for Scottish education is mine and

:44:27. > :44:30.the Scottish's government. I make no bones about. There is much to be

:44:31. > :44:33.very positive about in Scottish education, we have a new curriculum

:44:34. > :44:38.in place which has been praised by the OECD for the record numbers of

:44:39. > :44:41.young people coming out of school with higher passes and advanced

:44:42. > :44:46.higher passes. Record numbers of young people going into university.

:44:47. > :44:49.But we have made very clear we want to raise standards in our schools

:44:50. > :44:52.even further. And we want to close the attainment gap. That's why we

:44:53. > :44:59.have a new national improvement framework. It is why we have a new

:45:00. > :45:03.attainment fund, ?120 million now going directly into the hands of

:45:04. > :45:07.headteachers, to give headteachers the ability to do things that they

:45:08. > :45:10.think can help raise standards and close the attainment gap.

:45:11. > :45:13.Interestingly, when not doing as the Tories are planning south of the

:45:14. > :45:17.border, investing in schools by taking away free school meals. We

:45:18. > :45:23.are going to protect free school meals for primary 1-3 pupils,

:45:24. > :45:27.because that helps learning. We are also extending childcare, because of

:45:28. > :45:30.the evidence says it is better quality early years education that

:45:31. > :45:36.helps to improve attainment in schools. We absolutely focused on

:45:37. > :45:40.making sure we improve education and get the challenges we've got in

:45:41. > :45:43.education addressed, that's why I said, have said repeatedly, for me

:45:44. > :45:49.as First Minister, it is my top priority. You've had ten years.

:45:50. > :45:59.You had ten years, you've been in charge for ten years. There is a

:46:00. > :46:07.widening gap between the richest and poorest kids, that is your record as

:46:08. > :46:11.the SNP. The gap between the richest and the poorest is not widening. The

:46:12. > :46:16.gap between the richest and poorest is narrowing. That is not true, name

:46:17. > :46:21.one source that proves that. That's why we are investing more in

:46:22. > :46:26.education. You can't provide a source because you know you have

:46:27. > :46:29.just told a porky, that gap is as big as ever. University access, the

:46:30. > :46:37.gap between the richest and poorest is closing. What about in schools?

:46:38. > :46:41.She can't name it! That is a narrowing of the gap. We want to go

:46:42. > :46:45.further, we've been in charge for ten years, which is why I'm proud of

:46:46. > :46:49.the fact we have record exam passes in schools, we've extended early

:46:50. > :46:55.years education and we are going further. One in five kids leaving

:46:56. > :47:02.school... People would have been having to pay to go to university if

:47:03. > :47:06.it were for you. Let's go back to Louise who asked the question. You

:47:07. > :47:10.asked who falls it is for the failure in literacy and numeracy in

:47:11. > :47:16.schools. Whose fault do you think it is? The question was not answered,

:47:17. > :47:22.firstly. Will go around everyone else. The curriculum has been panned

:47:23. > :47:28.by teachers, I'm a teacher myself, I teach maths. You talk about record

:47:29. > :47:31.high and advanced higher, that will happen if you lower the standard of

:47:32. > :47:35.exams, the standard of exams is disgraceful. The national five does

:47:36. > :47:40.not look like national great credit. I'm only speaking about maths

:47:41. > :47:46.because that is my area. If you lower the standard of exams then you

:47:47. > :47:48.would see passes presumably rising. OK, let's take that point and go to

:47:49. > :47:56.Ruth Davidson. APPLAUSE

:47:57. > :48:01.Firstly, thank you for the question. It is astonishing to listen to the

:48:02. > :48:03.First Minister of Scotland wanting applause for finally getting round

:48:04. > :48:07.to cleaning up the mess her party has been in charge of creating for

:48:08. > :48:12.the last ten years. There is lots of things we need to do differently in

:48:13. > :48:14.our schools. First of all there was really good intentions behind

:48:15. > :48:17.Curriculum for Excellence but we have to be honest enough to say it

:48:18. > :48:24.is not working and that's way will want a full review of work and

:48:25. > :48:28.educational system. The teachers haven't got a fighting chance of

:48:29. > :48:31.teaching this. Every time we fall down an international ranking the

:48:32. > :48:35.Scottish Government's solution to that is to pull us out of doing the

:48:36. > :48:39.tests so we don't know how we are doing against other countries. We

:48:40. > :48:42.also have the issue where we don't have independent inspectors for our

:48:43. > :48:46.schools and we don't have enough and we are so easy trying to help out

:48:47. > :48:50.because Curriculum for Excellence was hard to introduce so they didn't

:48:51. > :48:55.do any inspections for several years. We need to empower teachers,

:48:56. > :48:59.we need to hire more because we have 4000 fewer than when Nicola Sturgeon

:49:00. > :49:03.came into power, particularly in maths and the Stem subjects, and a

:49:04. > :49:06.quarter of maths training places are not filled. I've repeatedly asked

:49:07. > :49:12.the first minute to get inexpensive new ways to get staff into schools,

:49:13. > :49:15.not wedded to that but there is lots more we can do. The idea Nicola

:49:16. > :49:18.Sturgeon is sitting here and saying it is all right, I've got this,

:49:19. > :49:24.after it fell apart on her watch is absolute disgrace.

:49:25. > :49:30.APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Willie Rennie. Nicola is

:49:31. > :49:35.right when she talks about investing in the early years is the best

:49:36. > :49:38.investment we can make in a child's future. She is right when she says

:49:39. > :49:44.that we should have an attainment fund that will invest in closing

:49:45. > :49:48.that inequality gap as Kezia Dugdale was talking about, she's right about

:49:49. > :49:52.all of these things. But why has it taken so long? She's been in power

:49:53. > :49:56.for ten years and we have been asking her to do these things for an

:49:57. > :50:00.awful long time, many years. She denied it at first and then she

:50:01. > :50:04.accepted it. The reality is, and I have to say this, that she is so

:50:05. > :50:08.distracted by her obsession with independence that she is now letting

:50:09. > :50:14.our education system down. APPLAUSE

:50:15. > :50:19.MODERATOR: I should let the First Minister come on this. The fact of

:50:20. > :50:23.the matter is there are challenges in Scottish education but there are

:50:24. > :50:26.also real things to be proud of in Scottish education. You've listed

:50:27. > :50:30.the achievements, the question was where does the fault line for recent

:50:31. > :50:33.failings and that's on new. I started my answer by saying that

:50:34. > :50:36.response ability for Scottish education is mine and my

:50:37. > :50:40.government's and I've not made any bones about that. There are teacher

:50:41. > :50:44.recruitment challenges not just in Scotland but many other different

:50:45. > :50:46.countries. We're looking at getting innovative different ways into

:50:47. > :50:52.getting into the teaching profession, we are investing into

:50:53. > :50:55.headteachers directly. All of these parties with the exception of the

:50:56. > :50:59.Greens voted against the budget that put the extra money into the hands

:51:00. > :51:05.of teachers. We are not cutting money. Yes you are. We are

:51:06. > :51:09.increasing money to schools by ?120 million so we are taking the action

:51:10. > :51:12.that is empowering our teachers to take the initiatives that would

:51:13. > :51:15.improve not just literacy and numeracy but standards across

:51:16. > :51:18.education. We are not shying away from these challenges, we are

:51:19. > :51:23.addressing them and will continue to do so. What we find is that some of

:51:24. > :51:28.the things we bring forward that are new and innovative, and sometimes

:51:29. > :51:31.controversial. We suggested them! Willie Rennie opposed them so we

:51:32. > :51:35.brought in the national improvement framework and Willie Rennie opposed

:51:36. > :51:37.it every step of the way so we will continue to do the right things by

:51:38. > :51:43.parents and students across the country. Let's take some

:51:44. > :51:45.contributions from our audience and then we will get to the other

:51:46. > :51:49.panellists, the gentleman in the front row.

:51:50. > :51:54.I am a teacher foster good news for the SNP and bad news. I've been

:51:55. > :52:02.teaching now, it's my fifth decade, and the problems we have started

:52:03. > :52:07.five tickets -- decades ago. We embrace every progressive advance

:52:08. > :52:13.thrown into schools, and what we've reached now, what we are actually

:52:14. > :52:15.talking about, a fifth of primary students leave primary school

:52:16. > :52:23.without basic literacy and numeracy skills. Which is not good. The other

:52:24. > :52:26.thing is you put ?120 million into bridging the Gap and so on. But they

:52:27. > :52:32.are not allowed to spend it on staff. I've heard of primary school

:52:33. > :52:36.teachers who can't employ permanent staff and what they are doing with

:52:37. > :52:39.the money, they've got loads of it, you are right, they are buying

:52:40. > :52:47.furniture because they've got to spend it. Education is needing

:52:48. > :52:50.completely revamping, we need to get back to making sure our children

:52:51. > :52:55.leave primary school with basic skills, the primary teachers have to

:52:56. > :52:59.teach just about everything and it's impossible for them to do the kind

:53:00. > :53:02.of job they need to do so they can pass the children onto the secondary

:53:03. > :53:05.sector where value will then be added.

:53:06. > :53:10.Thank you very much for your contribution.

:53:11. > :53:15.APPLAUSE There is a young man towards the

:53:16. > :53:18.back in a black shirt. Yes. I think one of the things the SNP must be

:53:19. > :53:23.commended for is the introduction of free tuition fees for Scottish

:53:24. > :53:26.students. It really has made it easier for Scottish students who

:53:27. > :53:29.can't afford to go to university to have the opportunity to go and study

:53:30. > :53:30.at some of the best universities in the world.

:53:31. > :53:41.APPLAUSE MODERATOR: In our audience on the

:53:42. > :53:45.floor, the gentleman in the blue shirt. I'd like to make the point,

:53:46. > :53:53.free tuition fees are fairly good ideologically but in a world of

:53:54. > :53:56.restraints surely it would be better socially to provide students with

:53:57. > :54:01.the finance so they can live at university and be able to afford

:54:02. > :54:04.their rent. At the moment many of my friends at university have to rely

:54:05. > :54:11.out of necessity on a part-time job, as well as all of their bank have

:54:12. > :54:14.stomach of mum and dad to cover their accommodation costs. Surely it

:54:15. > :54:18.would be better to invest in maintenance grants, increase student

:54:19. > :54:27.finance, so they can actually live at university and be able to afford

:54:28. > :54:30.to, rather than paying. There are certainly issues I think we need to

:54:31. > :54:36.focus on, the things the UK Government should be doing to

:54:37. > :54:39.improve the pay people get, many of those students will be working in

:54:40. > :54:43.exploitative forms of work, as well as reducing housing costs and living

:54:44. > :54:46.costs people have. The question about education in Scotland, about

:54:47. > :54:51.school education in Scotland where we started, there is clearly a mixed

:54:52. > :54:54.picture and the SNP sometimes our too ready to focus on changing

:54:55. > :54:59.government structures, or standardised testing and these kind

:55:00. > :55:02.of things, rather than the long-term resources that schools need. That's

:55:03. > :55:07.why the Greens were so focused on getting them to reverse. ?160

:55:08. > :55:12.million of cuts to local councils which run our schools in Scotland.

:55:13. > :55:16.But look, this is not a test of the Scottish Parliament. You are not

:55:17. > :55:20.about to elect MSPs to the Scottish Parliament. You are about to elect

:55:21. > :55:23.MPs to Westminster. And if young people in schools are turning up

:55:24. > :55:28.angry and spending their day hungry they are not going to be able to get

:55:29. > :55:33.the best out of their education, and the UK Government is pushing

:55:34. > :55:37.thousands more families deeper into poverty. It is transferring wealth,

:55:38. > :55:42.wealth that we all generate in our economy, from the poorest third of

:55:43. > :55:47.our society to the richest third in our society. So whatever the other

:55:48. > :55:50.actions Scotland can take to mitigate that part it will not be

:55:51. > :55:53.enough unless we change the direction of UK policy and make sure

:55:54. > :55:57.we are investing for the long-term and closing the inequality gap in

:55:58. > :56:02.our society that at the moment is limiting the ability of children and

:56:03. > :56:05.young people to get the best out of the education that provided.

:56:06. > :56:13.Thank you, Patrick Harvie. APPLAUSE

:56:14. > :56:16.MODERATOR: Patrick Harvie is absolutely right, education is a

:56:17. > :56:20.devolved issue that is controlled from Holyrood but we had a lot of

:56:21. > :56:24.interest from our audience, and of course a lot of people cared very

:56:25. > :56:28.much about this so it will probably influence how we vote. We were being

:56:29. > :56:33.asked about free tuition fees, what is Ukipper's policy? Ukip's policy

:56:34. > :56:38.is to extend free tuition to England as well, they should get the same

:56:39. > :56:42.privilege, it is quite right. What worries me is the Scottish taxpayer

:56:43. > :56:46.are paying a lot of money for EU students to be educated at Scottish

:56:47. > :56:50.universities, which is depriving Scottish students of places at those

:56:51. > :56:57.universities. I think that's wrong. I also think that it's a disgrace

:56:58. > :57:00.that children should be coming out of school illiterate, this gentleman

:57:01. > :57:04.is right, and not functioning properly. That is absolutely wrong.

:57:05. > :57:10.When I was at school in Scotland it was the finest education system in

:57:11. > :57:14.the world. We had Latin and Greek at the age of 12. If they could do that

:57:15. > :57:20.then why not now? It might not be necessary now but they were able to.

:57:21. > :57:24.That is relevant, like fox hunting! What is wrong is you have people

:57:25. > :57:29.coming out of school not properly educated, that's absolutely wrong

:57:30. > :57:31.and that's down to this lady here who has made an absolute disaster

:57:32. > :57:36.and mincemeat of the Scottish education system.

:57:37. > :57:38.We shall leave that therefore the moment and move on to another

:57:39. > :57:44.question, David Morrison has a question for the panel. Should we

:57:45. > :57:53.increase income tax to meet all social costs? MODERATOR: Willie

:57:54. > :57:58.Rennie. Yes, sir, I think we should put an modest penny on income tax to

:57:59. > :58:02.have a colossal effect on public services. On the basic rate of

:58:03. > :58:07.income tax? On the basic rate of income tax, that would deliver about

:58:08. > :58:13.?500 billion for Scottish society, for Scottish public services, we

:58:14. > :58:16.would invested in education, nursery, schools and colleges, to

:58:17. > :58:21.have that transformational effect because Scottish education, as we

:58:22. > :58:25.knew, used to be one of the best in the world and it is now being judged

:58:26. > :58:28.as just average and that's not good because it drives our economy, a

:58:29. > :58:33.good education system, to provide the skills for our workforce, but

:58:34. > :58:37.also for our companies to create that economic wealth, it's that

:58:38. > :58:40.virtuous circle. So, yes I would, but I'd also make sure we invest in

:58:41. > :58:44.mental health services because mental health services need that big

:58:45. > :58:50.step change. You know that children in this very city can wait up to two

:58:51. > :58:53.years, two years, for important mental health treatment. I think

:58:54. > :58:57.that's a disgrace, they should be getting the support now and that's

:58:58. > :59:01.why we need to invest in mental health services too. So yes,

:59:02. > :59:02.absolutely, put a modest penny on income tax to have a colossal effect

:59:03. > :59:14.on public services. MODERATOR: Kezia Dugdale, should we

:59:15. > :59:17.increase income tax to cover social costs? We should and the Scottish

:59:18. > :59:20.Parliament now powers of has income tax which matters because we are in

:59:21. > :59:24.a position to choose in Scotland to do things differently from the

:59:25. > :59:28.Tories. What the SNP have done is take Tory cuts and pass them on. It

:59:29. > :59:33.doesn't have to be this way. So yes, I think we should use the income tax

:59:34. > :59:37.powers we have. This is a general election, tell us what you would do

:59:38. > :59:40.with UK wide tax rates. They are devolved to the Scottish Parliament

:59:41. > :59:43.soaked in Labour's manifesto you will see we are committed to the

:59:44. > :59:48.same tax policies from last year, 1p on the Brexit great as Willie Rennie

:59:49. > :59:54.described and a 50p rate on the top rate of tax asking people who earn

:59:55. > :59:57.over ?130,000 a year to invest in the education system. We heard from

:59:58. > :00:00.teachers earlier. I need teachers every day who have to bring in their

:00:01. > :00:04.own resources to the classroom, school budgets creaking at the seams

:00:05. > :00:07.and vacancies going unfulfilled. It is about closing the gap and

:00:08. > :00:11.investing in young people so they can be everything they want to be.

:00:12. > :00:18.We have to return to having the best portable education system in the

:00:19. > :00:19.world. We can't do that on the cheap so we have to ask the richest people

:00:20. > :00:22.in society to pay their fair share in society to pay their fair share

:00:23. > :00:28.-- the best possible education system in the world.

:00:29. > :00:35.Kezia Dugdale mentioned a 50p top rate of tax. Is your strategy you

:00:36. > :00:38.believe you would vote in that Westminster for the rest of the UK

:00:39. > :00:43.but when you had the opportunity in Scotland, you didn't? We were given

:00:44. > :00:45.advice if you just did that in Scotland without the Scottish

:00:46. > :00:50.Parliament having the power to tackle tax avoidance, to set the

:00:51. > :00:53.rules to stop people transferring income to capital gains, we would

:00:54. > :00:57.potentially lose money from that and nobody would set the tax rate if you

:00:58. > :01:01.knew you would lose money. That problem doesn't arise at the moment

:01:02. > :01:08.across the UK, so we support the restoration of the top rate of 50p

:01:09. > :01:12.tax. Labour had the chance of a 50p top rate of tax may didn't do it

:01:13. > :01:15.until the last few months. On tax more generally, I Dodig we should

:01:16. > :01:20.raise the basic rate of income tax, because one of the big issues over

:01:21. > :01:24.the next few years is the squeeze on living standards. We saw inflation

:01:25. > :01:28.rise to 2.7% the other day. We have experts say we are going to have

:01:29. > :01:36.inequality rising at the fastest rate since the days of Margaret

:01:37. > :01:39.Thatcher. That the lowest third in society are going to fall by 10%,

:01:40. > :01:42.because of the policies of the Tory government. I Dodig we should be

:01:43. > :01:46.asking low and middle income earners to pay more. But I also don't think

:01:47. > :01:55.we should be handing a massive tax cut to higher taxpayers. The Tories,

:01:56. > :02:00.whilst they are freezing the value of tax credits, working tax credits

:02:01. > :02:04.and child tax credits, are still going to hand a massive tax cut to

:02:05. > :02:08.the richest people in society. I think those are the wrong

:02:09. > :02:13.priorities, and if you want MPs to stand up for the right priorities in

:02:14. > :02:17.Scotland, vote SNP to make sure you get them. APPLAUSE

:02:18. > :02:22.Some of our audience are very keen to come in. First, Ruth Davidson.

:02:23. > :02:26.You probably won't hear Nicola Sturgeon Ameobi about much today but

:02:27. > :02:29.one thing we do agree about is people are on low incomes, they

:02:30. > :02:35.shouldn't have as much of that money taken away in tax. That's why we

:02:36. > :02:41.raised the threshold from 5500 to 12,000 500. It's why we've raised

:02:42. > :02:44.the minimum wage, brought in a new national living wage, why people at

:02:45. > :02:47.the lowest Ntep the biggest pay rise in 20 years. We believe people are

:02:48. > :02:53.better at spending their own money than having the government spend it

:02:54. > :02:57.for them. The issue about tax is, yes, income taxes and business taxes

:02:58. > :03:00.paying for what we have. The reason we have a deficit is we bring in

:03:01. > :03:04.less tax than we pay out. We are adding debt to our children. We need

:03:05. > :03:08.to do it in a way that is equitable and covers the costs we have in our

:03:09. > :03:12.society. Nicola Sturgeon raised an interesting issue. For 13 years the

:03:13. > :03:15.Labour Party didn't have eight 50p top rate of tax and three months

:03:16. > :03:23.before they left office, they brought one in. When it was reduced

:03:24. > :03:25.to 45p in the pound, we brought in more taxes. I know it sounds

:03:26. > :03:31.counterintuitive but it is true. The issue we have in Scotland is we now

:03:32. > :03:35.have diverging taxes. We have signed at Gretna that's as higher taxes

:03:36. > :03:38.here. We have a contracting economy in Scotland, we are one quarter away

:03:39. > :03:42.from recession and the rest of the UK's growing at 2% a year. I'm not

:03:43. > :03:48.sure is coincidence. That's absolutely true. Let's take in the

:03:49. > :03:55.audience. The gentleman in the blue jumper in the second row. Nicola

:03:56. > :03:59.Sturgeon, your paper last year said there were additional taxpayers in

:04:00. > :04:02.Scotland than your paper estimated to raised ?50 million. What would

:04:03. > :04:07.that do to a Budget deficit of 15 billion? That paper said we could

:04:08. > :04:14.potentially lose money if we didn't... It was one of four

:04:15. > :04:17.options. The point of this is, Ruth talks a lot of nonsense about

:04:18. > :04:21.Scotland being the highest tax partner in the UK. We are not giving

:04:22. > :04:24.higher rate taxpayers a tax cut, which means they are paying not more

:04:25. > :04:30.than they pay just now but more than a counterpart in in England to about

:04:31. > :04:34.?7 a week. That's less than the cost of a single NHS prescription.

:04:35. > :04:37.Descriptions are free in Scotland, you have to pay for them in England.

:04:38. > :04:42.If you have young people going to university here, you don't have to

:04:43. > :04:46.pay ?27,000 of tuition fees. If you have an elderly parent needing care,

:04:47. > :04:51.you get free personal and nursing care. Actually, taxpayers in

:04:52. > :04:55.Scotland have the best deal of taxpayers anywhere in the UK,

:04:56. > :05:01.because of the policies of the Scottish Government. APPLAUSE

:05:02. > :05:10.Kezia Dugdale. Nicola Sturgeon heard this woman in the front row here,

:05:11. > :05:14.this nurse told her she has to go to a food bank because she doesn't have

:05:15. > :05:17.enough money. Nicola Sturgeon, you voted against a pay increase for

:05:18. > :05:22.nurses less than take that this man ten days ago. Why wouldn't you ask

:05:23. > :05:27.richer people in society pay more taxes that nurse gets the pay rise

:05:28. > :05:33.she deserves? You voted against it. You know because of the policies of

:05:34. > :05:36.the Scottish Government and newly qualified nurse in Scotland is paid

:05:37. > :05:41.more than a newly qualified nurse in England. A starting salary in the

:05:42. > :05:46.NHS is paid ?1000 more. She can't feed her family. She can't feed her

:05:47. > :05:51.family. What I have also said as the pay freeze that has been in place

:05:52. > :05:58.because of Tory austerity being impose... It's your fault. We have

:05:59. > :06:02.always accepted the recommendations of the NHS pay review body and we

:06:03. > :06:08.always will, because that's the right thing to do for NHS staff.

:06:09. > :06:12.Let's go back to the nurse in the front row, what you think of what

:06:13. > :06:16.you heard? They don't seem to be listening. There's thousands and

:06:17. > :06:24.thousands of nurse positions unfilled. The reason for that is

:06:25. > :06:29.because it's so low paid. It's not a sustainable income. We can't live on

:06:30. > :06:32.it. I have a lot of sympathy... APPLAUSE

:06:33. > :06:36.With what you're saying. We've had in the public sector, not just in

:06:37. > :06:40.the NHS, in the last few years, a 1% pay cap. The reason for that has

:06:41. > :06:45.been austerity policies. We've tried to protect jobs in the NHS and the

:06:46. > :06:50.wider public sector. When inflation was pretty close to zero, that was

:06:51. > :06:54.one thing. As I said a moment ago, inflation is now writing. I am

:06:55. > :06:58.absolutely clear that that pay freeze, that pay cap is not

:06:59. > :07:02.sustainable moving forward. We need to work with trade unions and

:07:03. > :07:05.negotiate with trade unions for fair pay, not just in the NHS but across

:07:06. > :07:09.the public sector. That I think is the difference between the Scottish

:07:10. > :07:14.Government under the SNP and the Westminster government under the

:07:15. > :07:17.Tories. We listen to what our public sector workers are saying and seek

:07:18. > :07:21.to act on what public sector workers are saying because we value those

:07:22. > :07:25.who work in the public sector. We have actually... We have not heard

:07:26. > :07:32.from David Coburn. How many years have we had 1%? Tell me how many?

:07:33. > :07:38.Too many. How many? Since about 2008. Exactly. There is no pay rise.

:07:39. > :07:43.How do you expect somebody to live on that? We are now having to

:07:44. > :07:46.strike. Do you think that's what nurses go into nursing for? I'm

:07:47. > :07:51.telling you now, I would rather leave nursing, as would many of my

:07:52. > :07:57.colleagues, than have to strike. You have no idea how demoralising it is

:07:58. > :08:02.to work within the NHS. Don't come on your announced visit, come in in

:08:03. > :08:07.the middle of any data any ward, any A department, come in and see what

:08:08. > :08:14.we're up against. My sister works in the national health service...

:08:15. > :08:17.APPLAUSE My... My sister works in the

:08:18. > :08:22.National Health Service, so believe me, she tells me exactly what she

:08:23. > :08:25.thinks about those matters. But if you listen to me, I'm actually

:08:26. > :08:29.agreeing with you. We've had a really difficult period with public

:08:30. > :08:34.spending. We've had that policy in place. We've also, in Scotland,

:08:35. > :08:37.unlike the rest of the UK, had a policy of no compulsory redundancies

:08:38. > :08:41.in the NHS and the wider public sector, to try and protect jobs.

:08:42. > :08:44.That's why there have been many people in the NHS in England who

:08:45. > :08:50.lost their jobs, that hasn't happened in Scotland. As we seek

:08:51. > :08:54.inflation rising, that policy is no longer sustainable. I accept that. I

:08:55. > :08:56.also think the freeze on benefits is no longer sustainable, because one

:08:57. > :09:00.of the biggest issues in this election campaign that has not been

:09:01. > :09:04.talked about enough is the fact that more and more people are being

:09:05. > :09:07.pushed into poverty. I'm determined that the SNP will stem that. The

:09:08. > :09:13.audience are very keen to come in. We'll come to you in a moment David,

:09:14. > :09:22.right on the floor here, a gentleman in a blue shirt. I have Asperger

:09:23. > :09:29.syndrome and I live in Fife over in Dunfermline.

:09:30. > :09:35.One of the biggest tax dodgers as the, which the Tories have given

:09:36. > :09:43.massive tax cuts to allow to continue... I also, I'm also

:09:44. > :09:49.struggling, I've had to go on a mental health waiting list to wait

:09:50. > :09:54.for somebody. I believe that if we could recoup some of these taxes

:09:55. > :10:02.back from the richest of society and we could reinvest it in the NHS, we

:10:03. > :10:07.could hopefully get people back into work, people who have autism and

:10:08. > :10:12.Asperger's syndrome like myself, into work and to beat help for

:10:13. > :10:17.people. And also, to touch upon the benefits as well, I found it utterly

:10:18. > :10:26.disgraceful having to go to a medical and be asked, have you ever

:10:27. > :10:34.wanted to commit suicide? I feel utterly, I felt utterly demoralised

:10:35. > :10:41.coming out that medical. And after being told I could a ?30 cut in my

:10:42. > :10:47.benefits, as well. Thank you very much for your contribution. APPLAUSE

:10:48. > :10:51.I want to take that point. Other questions came in from the audience

:10:52. > :10:57.saying, why should we even be talking about tax rises for ordinary

:10:58. > :11:01.people, higher earners, when corporations don't pay their fair

:11:02. > :11:06.share? That's why we need to crack down on this. We are taking more in,

:11:07. > :11:10.they set up a new department within HMRC to try and cut down on it. But

:11:11. > :11:15.the gentleman is absolutely right, when it comes to Amazon over the

:11:16. > :11:18.water in Dunfermline and the subsidy given by the Scottish Government,

:11:19. > :11:21.when it pays low wages. We need to make sure corporations pay their

:11:22. > :11:25.fair share. It is really tough. They work very hard not to. We are

:11:26. > :11:28.cracking down on it. We are absolutely committed to it. Yes,

:11:29. > :11:31.there is more to do but we have made advances and we are taking in a lot

:11:32. > :11:39.more than the previous government did stop pro-why is it then that you

:11:40. > :11:47.have more tax inspectors... Taking vulnerable people in society, where

:11:48. > :11:52.as you have less tax inspectors checking the works of Amazon, Apple

:11:53. > :11:57.and Google and all the other companies. I feel that I'm under

:11:58. > :12:02.surveillance 24 hours a day, seven days a week, does that help people's

:12:03. > :12:09.mental health? No, it doesn't. Thank you for that. People feel more

:12:10. > :12:12.effort has gone into scrutinising individuals and corporations.

:12:13. > :12:16.Patrick Harvie. It is undeniable that we need more progressive

:12:17. > :12:21.taxation and I think people on an MSP salary can afford to pay more

:12:22. > :12:25.tax. The Greens have shown we can do that without increasing tax the

:12:26. > :12:29.people on low or average incomes. We can break the basic rate and

:12:30. > :12:32.actually cut the tax belt that people on rowing comes up on, while

:12:33. > :12:37.ensuring wealthy people pay a bit more. We did manage to persuade the

:12:38. > :12:44.SNP to scrap a proposed tax break... We managed to persuade them... Do

:12:45. > :12:47.you mind? We managed to persuade them to scrap the tax break for

:12:48. > :12:50.higher earners. We will need to push them to go further than that. But it

:12:51. > :12:55.is absolutely about more than just income tax. I have very little

:12:56. > :13:00.sympathy for people who are now arguing that they want a policy for

:13:01. > :13:02.England and Wales should have as ex-income tax rates if we are not

:13:03. > :13:06.willing to have progressive taxation here in Scotland. It is about more

:13:07. > :13:10.than just income. The gentleman here is absolutely right about

:13:11. > :13:15.corporations. Dia Ruth Davidson say they have been racking down on

:13:16. > :13:18.corporation tax, they have been reducing the rate of corporation tax

:13:19. > :13:22.year after year after year, whether it was a Labour government, a

:13:23. > :13:25.coalition government or a Tory government, that corporate tax

:13:26. > :13:29.contribution has gone down and down and down in a race to the bottom. So

:13:30. > :13:35.we absolutely need to be looking at the wide range of forms of wealth

:13:36. > :13:38.and income inequality if we want to be serious about raising the revenue

:13:39. > :13:42.needed to meet the social need that we all have. Every single one of us

:13:43. > :13:45.depends on public services. And if we are not willing to make a

:13:46. > :13:49.contribution to that, a fair contribution, I think we should all

:13:50. > :13:53.be ashamed of ourselves as a society. I think very many people do

:13:54. > :13:56.want to ensure that happens. The UK and Scottish governments need to be

:13:57. > :14:02.changing direction to make it happen. OK, thank you for that,

:14:03. > :14:04.Patrick. APPLAUSE Nicola Sturgeon, you want to

:14:05. > :14:09.specifically address the points raised. This is a Westminster

:14:10. > :14:11.election for someone of the biggest responsibilities of Westminster

:14:12. > :14:15.government is the Social Security system. The gentleman here has just

:14:16. > :14:18.mentioned a policy I think Ruth Davidson should be asked to justify

:14:19. > :14:22.tonight wasn't disabled people are having ?30 a week removed from their

:14:23. > :14:26.benefit. They are having their Motability vehicles taken away.

:14:27. > :14:30.Disabled people are being dragged to assessments, where they are treated

:14:31. > :14:35.like criminals and asked to justify themselves, all while the Tories are

:14:36. > :14:41.proposing even more productions to corporation tax and tax cuts for the

:14:42. > :14:44.richest in our society that it is utterly shameful that the policies

:14:45. > :14:47.of this Tory government are driving more disabled people into poverty. I

:14:48. > :14:52.really do think this debate should not enter night without Ruth

:14:53. > :14:53.Davidson having to defend these outrageous, despicable, cruel and

:14:54. > :14:58.callous policies. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

:14:59. > :15:14.Ruth Davidson. Firstly, there are more people on PIP than DVLA. It has

:15:15. > :15:21.more focus on mental issues. Nobody is having ?30 taken off them... They

:15:22. > :15:25.are losing ?30 of week. Explain what it is. A different form of benefit

:15:26. > :15:29.to help you with the extra need to have. If you have a physical or

:15:30. > :15:33.mental disability, if it means you can't get yourself to the shops, it

:15:34. > :15:36.helps pay for a taxi to get you very back, for example. More money is

:15:37. > :15:40.being put into... And this is where there is great work being done,

:15:41. > :15:43.closing the disability implement gap. People at this gentleman here

:15:44. > :15:49.say they want to get back into employment but there are barriers

:15:50. > :15:51.into employment. That is why everybody who is getting help with a

:15:52. > :15:55.jobs coach, helping people with their needs, extra money put in help

:15:56. > :16:02.folk do that. We wanted close that implement gap. People are having

:16:03. > :16:07.their Motability taken away. 700,000 more being issued than 2010, that is

:16:08. > :16:13.true. -- 70,000 more than there were in 2010. 800 people a week getting

:16:14. > :16:16.them taken away don't exist stubbornly there are more than there

:16:17. > :16:21.were before. What we're trying to do is ensure there is a big gap right

:16:22. > :16:24.now between people who have disabilities and employees feel they

:16:25. > :16:27.are, I don't know if it's scared or they don't feel confident enough to

:16:28. > :16:31.support them, whether people don't have access, we are investing money

:16:32. > :16:35.to make sure we have that disability implement gap, so we can try and get

:16:36. > :16:38.people to have the dignity of a job, because they want to be independent,

:16:39. > :16:43.they want to work I don't think that's a bad thing. We are coming to

:16:44. > :16:46.Woods into the programme and we don't have time to get into new

:16:47. > :16:49.issues. We have time to get into new issues.

:16:50. > :16:54.Modern governments have discovered if they put reasonable taxes on

:16:55. > :17:00.people they simply move and take their talent with them. I would say

:17:01. > :17:03.it would be very, very bad, appalling for Scotland, if our taxes

:17:04. > :17:07.in Scotland were higher than those in the rest of the UK, we would

:17:08. > :17:15.simply be uncompetitive. I don't want to see the happen. But on the

:17:16. > :17:17.other hand the committee on the European Parliament which sounds

:17:18. > :17:21.luxurious and fun, it is about looking into shady places where

:17:22. > :17:25.corporations stack their money. Believe you me, I've heard a few

:17:26. > :17:29.interesting tales and I think there should be some serious looking into

:17:30. > :17:34.that department and that is not being done, thanks to the Tories.

:17:35. > :17:38.Again, if we have higher taxes, taxes in Scotland you can forget

:17:39. > :17:40.about being competitive, we need people in Scotland working to build

:17:41. > :17:45.their businesses and making sure they employ their fellow Scots. That

:17:46. > :17:50.said, David Coburn, thank you. I'm afraid that is all we have time for.

:17:51. > :17:53.Thank you to our panel and politicians for joining us tonight

:17:54. > :17:56.and to our audience in Edinburgh. Before the end of the programme

:17:57. > :18:01.let's get reaction from Jackie and her guests in the press room.

:18:02. > :18:05.Thank you, if you thought the debate in the hall was pretty impassioned

:18:06. > :18:10.it is pretty intense here too. Was a people here are filing the stories

:18:11. > :18:15.you will read tomorrow. Let's meet a trio who have had plenty to say over

:18:16. > :18:19.the last 90 minutes. We have the political editor of the Daily Record

:18:20. > :18:23.David Clegg, the author and columnist David Torrance and the

:18:24. > :18:28.editor of the National. What do you think of the dynamic tonight, David?

:18:29. > :18:31.The dynamic started being between Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson

:18:32. > :18:34.which is a change, usually these debates in previous years are

:18:35. > :18:38.between the SNP and Labour Party but this time it's clearly between the

:18:39. > :18:41.SNP and Conservatives. The most memorable moment of the night

:18:42. > :18:45.certainly was the nurse who really gave Nicola Sturgeon a much more

:18:46. > :18:48.difficult time than any of the politicians did on the panel

:18:49. > :18:52.tonight, the nurse talked about not being able to afford food on the

:18:53. > :18:57.salary of a nurse, and really brought the point home over quite an

:18:58. > :19:00.extended period. I've never seen Nicola Sturgeon looks so

:19:01. > :19:03.uncomfortable on television before. David Torrance, that's what is so

:19:04. > :19:07.good about debates like this because you don't know what is going to

:19:08. > :19:13.happen and often something very nuanced and personal can turn it.

:19:14. > :19:17.And all the more effective as David says, coming from somebody in the

:19:18. > :19:21.audience as opposed to another party leader. It also shows you how

:19:22. > :19:25.jumbled up different policy responsibilities get in elections

:19:26. > :19:29.these days. In the era of devolution people no longer differentiate

:19:30. > :19:33.adequately between devolved responsibilities like health and

:19:34. > :19:37.education and reserved issues, which is after all what UK general

:19:38. > :19:41.election is supposed to be about. It all gets bundled up into the same

:19:42. > :19:46.mix. Perhaps we shouldn't even bother trying in this context,

:19:47. > :19:52.because it doesn't seem that voters do. Who do you think performed best,

:19:53. > :19:55.Richard? Nicola Sturgeon performed best but certainly she was a clear

:19:56. > :20:00.winner in the first half. Do you feel she was under pressure, from

:20:01. > :20:05.most notably the nurse in the audience? I think those were

:20:06. > :20:09.difficult questions, she's faced difficult questions about nurses'

:20:10. > :20:13.pay and education and in education she accepted responsibility and said

:20:14. > :20:16.she's dealing with it, both of those issues are devolved issues and it's

:20:17. > :20:19.perfectly fair to discuss them but they are not the issues we are

:20:20. > :20:24.voting on just now and it should be pointed out that another main issues

:20:25. > :20:28.for this election. There are other issues that should have been

:20:29. > :20:32.discussed as well but the Labour Party in particular were more

:20:33. > :20:35.concerned with the SNP's record as government in Holyrood rather than

:20:36. > :20:39.austerity policies to do with the Tories in Westminster. I have to

:20:40. > :20:44.hurry you, we are heading towards the end of the programme. That is

:20:45. > :20:50.what the journalists think, a quick word from the Scottish Conservatives

:20:51. > :20:52.and the SNP. To be a fly on the war at this table. Your leaders, as I

:20:53. > :20:59.think we have gathered here, have dominated the debate tonight. -- fly

:21:00. > :21:04.on the wall. Ruth Davidson can't really escape the fact she was a

:21:05. > :21:08.Remainer and she has had to defend Brexit. That's democracy, the people

:21:09. > :21:13.of the United Kingdom voted to leave the EU, the important thing is how

:21:14. > :21:16.to get the best possible deal. That is achieved by the Scottish

:21:17. > :21:19.Government working together with the UK Government. The problem is the

:21:20. > :21:23.Scottish Government has no interest in getting a good deal for the UK,

:21:24. > :21:27.they want to use this to engineer a second independence referendum,

:21:28. > :21:29.that's what this referendum, election is about and Nicola

:21:30. > :21:34.Sturgeon made it clear, every vote for an SNP candidate in this

:21:35. > :21:37.election is a vote for a second independence referendum. Joanna

:21:38. > :21:41.Cherry, what about the plea from the member of the audience and her

:21:42. > :21:47.statement to Nicola Sturgeon, don't come on your announced visits? How

:21:48. > :21:51.did she react to that? Did she react well? Did she rebut what she was

:21:52. > :21:55.accused of cosmic she explained to the nurse that under the SNP

:21:56. > :21:58.Scottish Government in Scotland they have done more to protect jobs in

:21:59. > :22:02.the NHS than anywhere else in the UK. Even the BBC says the NHS in

:22:03. > :22:05.Scotland is run better than in England and Wales. The unfortunate

:22:06. > :22:09.truth is if the lady in the audience lived in England or Wales she would

:22:10. > :22:12.have worse pay and conditions. The real story tonight is that Ruth

:22:13. > :22:16.Davidson this evening, the mask has slipped, when she is put under

:22:17. > :22:22.scrutiny about the real issues in this election, the record of the

:22:23. > :22:24.Tory party in London, she goes to pieces. She was unable to defend

:22:25. > :22:27.Brexit this evening, she received a lecture on the audience and Nicola

:22:28. > :22:30.Sturgeon on the benefits of immigration and went to pieces when

:22:31. > :22:35.called upon to defend the Tories' toxic policies on pensioners. I will

:22:36. > :22:39.have to stop you there. Thank you. We can talk to another couple of

:22:40. > :22:45.journalists. The Scotland editor of the Guardian and Lindsay from the

:22:46. > :22:48.Press Association. We've spoken a lot to write about the four main

:22:49. > :22:53.parties. What about Ukip and the Greens? -- we've spoken about

:22:54. > :22:58.tonight. What was their influence if anything? David Coburn is very much

:22:59. > :23:01.a bystander in this election and on this occasion it's one of the few

:23:02. > :23:05.moments he will have in the limelight to make any attempt to

:23:06. > :23:08.interject Ukip into this particular election. Are not clear he had any

:23:09. > :23:13.success, he was the person shouting from the fringes. Patrick Harvie is

:23:14. > :23:16.a more experienced performer, he's used to performing at First

:23:17. > :23:20.Minister's Questions and is a seasoned campaigner and is much more

:23:21. > :23:23.able to present a much more rational focused party position for the

:23:24. > :23:28.Scottish Green Party. They really didn't get to contribute a whole

:23:29. > :23:33.what. It was really all about Nicola Sturgeon versus Ruth Davidson,

:23:34. > :23:35.particularly at the start on Brexit and the independence referendum,

:23:36. > :23:42.Kezia Dugdale coming in strong on education and health. Willie Rennie,

:23:43. > :23:45.a few cheers for him on his Brexit stance and a few cheers for him on

:23:46. > :23:54.issues like mental health and education as well. Thank you. Let's

:23:55. > :24:01.tuk-tuk two of our politicians, very animated, Jackie Baillie, during the

:24:02. > :24:07.debate tonight. What about Kezia Dugdale's impact -- let's talk to

:24:08. > :24:11.two of our politicians. Did we learn any more about Labour Party policy

:24:12. > :24:14.over the last 90 minutes? We absolutely did and what we heard

:24:15. > :24:18.strongly from Kezia Dugdale was a complete rejection of a second

:24:19. > :24:24.device of independence referendum, that came across very cruelly but in

:24:25. > :24:27.addition to that -- clearly. The focus on the economy and jobs and

:24:28. > :24:30.investing in the NHS was interesting. What we heard tonight

:24:31. > :24:35.from the audience was the real lived experience of teachers talking about

:24:36. > :24:40.failing standards, of nurses talking about having to use food banks. That

:24:41. > :24:44.exposed the record of the SNP and indeed the Tories who remain the

:24:45. > :24:49.party of austerity in the United Kingdom, and frankly I think this

:24:50. > :24:51.election has to be about more than the Constitution. It doesn't

:24:52. > :24:55.surprise me the SNP and Tories just want to talk about the constitution,

:24:56. > :25:01.because it saves any focus on their failing policies. Did any of Willie

:25:02. > :25:05.Rennie's points hit home? Absolutely, I'm a proud man tonight,

:25:06. > :25:08.he was pitch perfect on our core message, which makes us distinct on

:25:09. > :25:12.this election, which is we want Scotland at the heart of the UK and

:25:13. > :25:16.the UK strong at the heart of Europe. He carried the room on

:25:17. > :25:19.things like the Brexit deal referendum question and particularly

:25:20. > :25:22.the lack of investment in mental health and the SNP's failure to

:25:23. > :25:27.address education problems in our education system in Scotland. I

:25:28. > :25:30.think we are going to be joined by our political editor Brian Taylor

:25:31. > :25:35.who is hotfooting it from our other press room. There you are. The

:25:36. > :25:39.people who have spoken to the politicians say that their man or

:25:40. > :25:45.woman did well. In your view who is going home happiest? The sharpest

:25:46. > :25:48.debates were on issues that are devolved to Holyrood, which is

:25:49. > :25:54.nowadays income tax and education, struck by the battles also between

:25:55. > :25:59.Ruth Davidson and Nicola Sturgeon and also with Kezia Dugdale over who

:26:00. > :26:03.stands up best for Scotland. I was struck on another point to bear in

:26:04. > :26:06.mind right at the beginning, we had a strategy from the Conservatives

:26:07. > :26:10.saying last year in the Holyrood elections they can form the

:26:11. > :26:14.opposition, Willie Rennie saying that at this election they can form

:26:15. > :26:17.the opposition in Westminster. We now have Kezia Dugdale joining the

:26:18. > :26:21.list in effect. She said if the polls are right the Tories are

:26:22. > :26:25.winning and she says she wants a Labour government but in reality

:26:26. > :26:29.seemed to concede it was extremely unlikely, and therefore positing

:26:30. > :26:32.herself as being the party that would stand up most vigorously

:26:33. > :26:39.against the Conservatives. That is an intriguing element in this

:26:40. > :26:42.contest. We have Andrew Nickell of the sun, filing your copy for

:26:43. > :26:49.tomorrow, if I can interrupt you. What is your topline? The nurse is

:26:50. > :26:52.the big story, I would love to know who she is and more about her. It's

:26:53. > :26:58.disappointing this is not a Westminster issue being discussed,

:26:59. > :27:02.that is what will hit home with people watching TV at home. Do you

:27:03. > :27:06.think we learned anything you tonight? No, I don't think we did.

:27:07. > :27:12.LAUGHTER Consensus breaks out in the press

:27:13. > :27:16.room. That doesn't happen... Let's end tonight with the final word from

:27:17. > :27:20.Sarah Smith. Come over and join me, you've emerged from the heat of the

:27:21. > :27:23.debate, how would you sum it up? It's interesting people saying we

:27:24. > :27:27.were discussing issues that are devolved, we are but the issues the

:27:28. > :27:31.audience wanted to talk about that they sent the most questions in

:27:32. > :27:34.about and the way the Scottish Government has performed does inform

:27:35. > :27:37.how people are going to vote, people care passionately about education,

:27:38. > :27:40.health and how the SNP have done over the last ten years and that

:27:41. > :27:44.will make a difference even if it shouldn't because they are devolved

:27:45. > :27:48.issues. On the things like Brexit which are of course Westminster's

:27:49. > :27:51.responsibility, we saw the sharp dividing line is, Nicola Sturgeon

:27:52. > :27:55.keen to tell us that a vote for the SNP will put a strong Scottish Voice

:27:56. > :27:58.into the negotiations, with the other parties disagreeing. We saw

:27:59. > :28:02.the different positions, Ruth Davidson was uncomfortable being

:28:03. > :28:06.reminded of her Remainer past now she is supporting Theresa May's

:28:07. > :28:09.version of Brexit but I agree with some of your other commentators, it

:28:10. > :28:13.was the audience who were the stars tonight with their questions. What a

:28:14. > :28:17.passion in the audience so that they will be reflected in the weeks to

:28:18. > :28:21.come, do you think? It could be and it's so much harder for the

:28:22. > :28:24.politicians to bat off a question from somebody who has real life

:28:25. > :28:27.experience and passionately cares about it like that. They can ignore

:28:28. > :28:32.me as much as they like and they quite often do but they can't ignore

:28:33. > :28:35.a nurse or a man worried about his benefits in the front row telling

:28:36. > :28:40.them what life is like out there. That is why the election matters

:28:41. > :28:43.because these policies change people's lives. The politicians say

:28:44. > :28:46.they want to hear from real people but that can be a blessing and

:28:47. > :28:50.sometimes occurs. Occasionally on the campaign trail they afford them

:28:51. > :28:54.as much as possible. We have a couple of weeks to go, thank you to

:28:55. > :29:02.Sarah. That is all we have time for tonight. Thank you for joining us in

:29:03. > :29:05.Edinburgh for the BBC Scotland leaders debate 2017.