:00:09. > :00:14.Just 2-macro days before we go to the polls, tonight, politicians take
:00:15. > :00:15.questions from the studio audience. Welcome to the Northern Ireland
:00:16. > :00:49.leaders debate. Good evening. So come on Thursday,
:00:50. > :00:52.we are off to the polls again, this time to elect MPs to a new
:00:53. > :00:56.Westminster parliament. The tone, if not the thrust of the National
:00:57. > :01:00.campaign has been touched by the terror attacks in Manchester and
:01:01. > :01:04.London. But the central theme of this election here and in the rest
:01:05. > :01:08.of the UK remains the exit from the European Union. I'm sure we can rely
:01:09. > :01:16.on those topics coming up in this, the Northern Ireland leaders debate.
:01:17. > :01:18.Our line-up, Robin Swan is the new leader of the Ulster Unionist party,
:01:19. > :01:21.the leader of the social Democratic and Labour Party is Colum Eastwood.
:01:22. > :01:27.Naomi Long is the Alliance Party leader, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson is the
:01:28. > :01:30.leader of the Democratic Unionists, Nigel Dodds was due to join us but
:01:31. > :01:33.his mother has taken ill unfortunately. And John O'Dowd of
:01:34. > :01:36.Sinn Fein complete the line-up, standing in for Stormont leader
:01:37. > :01:39.Michel O'Neill who we are told has lost her voice. The questions
:01:40. > :01:43.tonight come from the studio audience, most of them grassroots
:01:44. > :01:46.party supporters but we also have a spring fling of voters who have yet
:01:47. > :01:49.to make up their mind how to vote on Thursday, we hope tonight's debate
:01:50. > :01:55.will help them decide. If you would like to join the discussion, you can
:01:56. > :02:00.tweet us. We extend a warm welcome to viewers on the BBC News Channel
:02:01. > :02:03.and BBC Parliament. We hope you will find the next hour illuminating. Let
:02:04. > :02:09.us begin. The first question comes from Andrew Wooster who is a cook.
:02:10. > :02:13.Andrew? Within this election, the constitutional question has once
:02:14. > :02:20.again overshadowed many important issues such as health and education.
:02:21. > :02:25.Do you agree that it should not be treated as a referendum on our PJ
:02:26. > :02:28.the UK? Thank you, Andrew, the constitutional question never far
:02:29. > :02:31.away, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, your party leader said the manifesto
:02:32. > :02:34.launch, Northern Ireland's membership in the UK is the most
:02:35. > :02:37.important thing in the party, the motivating factor behind all we do
:02:38. > :02:43.in politics. Clearly for your party, this is a referendum? It is not a
:02:44. > :02:47.referendum but you are right, issues like health and education are
:02:48. > :02:52.important and how we fund our public services is important. The huge
:02:53. > :02:58.subsidy we received from London, being part of the UK, if we joined a
:02:59. > :03:01.united Ireland, we would lose that. Our public services would suffer.
:03:02. > :03:06.You and your family, every time you visit a doctor, would have to pay 50
:03:07. > :03:10.euros every visit. You would not get a free NHS available at the point of
:03:11. > :03:15.contact. There is so much we stand to lose if we leave the UK. So I am
:03:16. > :03:19.passionately Unionist but I agree this election is about more than
:03:20. > :03:22.just the union. It is about health and education, it is about getting
:03:23. > :03:26.storm up and running again quickly. We are prepared next Monday to go to
:03:27. > :03:33.store Montt and form a government without preconditions because the
:03:34. > :03:36.people we represent want us to get on with governing Northern Ireland
:03:37. > :03:39.and provide political stability. But if everything is under the shadow of
:03:40. > :03:42.the constitutional question, people won't believe that you are
:03:43. > :03:45.interested in all those other things? That is not what they are
:03:46. > :03:50.staying on the doorsteps. The doorsteps that I have visited, and
:03:51. > :03:54.they -- there have been thousands of them in this election, yes, they
:03:55. > :03:57.want to see Stormont up and running again but they are talking about
:03:58. > :04:00.health and members of their families, waiting 18 months for
:04:01. > :04:04.operations. They are talking about schools funding. I'm sorry, but
:04:05. > :04:08.these are important issues to people on the ground. Yes, the union is
:04:09. > :04:13.important and I'm passionate about it, and staying in the UK. But I
:04:14. > :04:16.also recognise, as someone who has been a member of Parliament for 20
:04:17. > :04:20.years, that the people I represent also want to see their politicians
:04:21. > :04:28.dealing daily with the bread and butter issues. Is it a danger, as
:04:29. > :04:32.the question suggests, that this is seen as a referendum? I think it is
:04:33. > :04:35.not just a danger, I think it is a wasted opportunity because people
:04:36. > :04:38.are voting in the election this Thursday to choose people who can
:04:39. > :04:43.then go and represent them in Westminster, be an effective voice
:04:44. > :04:46.their concerns but also people who will support the re-establishment of
:04:47. > :04:50.the institutions at Stormont which is hugely important and that is the
:04:51. > :04:54.issue that people focus on, and not the issue of the border question but
:04:55. > :04:59.it is fed by lazy politicians, not by the public. The Jeffrey Donaldson
:05:00. > :05:03.is right, when you ask people what worries them, what is keeping them
:05:04. > :05:06.awake at night, it is not the border question, it is the fact they can't
:05:07. > :05:10.get an appointment to see their GP, the fact the hospital waiting list
:05:11. > :05:13.is longer than it used to be. It is the fact they are not sure they can
:05:14. > :05:16.make ends meet and what they are not doing is worrying about the Union
:05:17. > :05:20.but I have to say it is a bit disingenuous to say on one hand that
:05:21. > :05:23.those are the things that worry people on the doorstep if almost
:05:24. > :05:26.your entire campaign is built around the border question. So I think
:05:27. > :05:30.people need to take responsibility on this side of the table for
:05:31. > :05:34.actually putting out the issues in the manifesto commitments that will
:05:35. > :05:37.actually make a difference to those other issues and that is what we
:05:38. > :05:40.have been focused on when we have talked about progressive politics.
:05:41. > :05:43.It is about more than just the border question. It is actually
:05:44. > :05:46.about talking about how we deliver a fair and more just society and those
:05:47. > :05:50.other things we are committed to talk about in every election.
:05:51. > :05:55.APPLAUSE Colum Eastwood? The question was,
:05:56. > :05:58.was this a referendum on the Union and it isn't, this is a referendum
:05:59. > :06:01.on who is going to be in government on Thursday and Friday. I know who I
:06:02. > :06:05.would like to be in government. I would like to see a Labour
:06:06. > :06:08.government, probably a Progressive alliance that the SDLP would
:06:09. > :06:13.support. We don't want to see another Tory government. Are you
:06:14. > :06:16.ready to be disappointed? I hopefully won't be disappointed,
:06:17. > :06:19.what you are seeing in the polls and everything is things are narrowing.
:06:20. > :06:21.The question and you asked about health and education, if we have
:06:22. > :06:25.another Conservative government, we will see more and more squeeze on
:06:26. > :06:29.the health and education budget. A Tory government, can you imagine
:06:30. > :06:32.trusting them even more with your health service? I don't trust them.
:06:33. > :06:37.I don't want to see them back in government which is why we are going
:06:38. > :06:42.to go, if we are elected, on Friday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, and
:06:43. > :06:45.vote against a Tory government, stand up against them. Of course,
:06:46. > :06:49.with the DUP, they will support a Tory government and John's party
:06:50. > :06:52.won't do anything at all. In fact, their vote will be like a proxy vote
:06:53. > :06:58.for the Conservatives because they would turn up, that is the truth.
:06:59. > :07:02.John O'Dowd. The record shows that the SDLP and MPs don't turn up
:07:03. > :07:05.Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, maybe every other
:07:06. > :07:12.Wednesday and Thursday. Their attendance rate is nearly as bad as
:07:13. > :07:16.ours and we are proud abstentions. 78%, Mark Durkan, 80% for Margaret
:07:17. > :07:25.Ritchie and 38% for Alasdair McDonnell in the 2015- 2017 session.
:07:26. > :07:28.You have to get your facts right. Millions of pounds in expenses, they
:07:29. > :07:32.don't claim it, they have not taken them in the last parliament. Excuse
:07:33. > :07:37.me. But I wanted to get your facts right, that is all. But I'm
:07:38. > :07:40.correcting Colum Eastwood, they don't turn up apart from every other
:07:41. > :07:45.Monday, Tuesday and perhaps the Wednesday. That's not true. In terms
:07:46. > :07:48.of the question, the constitutional question is important because it is
:07:49. > :07:53.about how we govern ourselves and what we see our future and how we
:07:54. > :07:56.want to it. I don't recognise the state that Sir Geoffrey Donaldson
:07:57. > :08:00.talks about where there will not be a health service, where you have to
:08:01. > :08:05.pay 50 euros or ?50 to see your GP. It's called the Republic of Ireland.
:08:06. > :08:09.That is a fact. APPLAUSE We want a new vision for a new
:08:10. > :08:13.island. I want a health service across the island of Ireland. I want
:08:14. > :08:17.to see a health service delivered free at the point of use. As Sir
:08:18. > :08:20.Geoffrey Donaldson's party and other parties who would be involved in the
:08:21. > :08:24.governance of that new island want to see a health service, want to see
:08:25. > :08:28.health care free at the point of delivery, then that is what we can
:08:29. > :08:33.achieve, so we don't want to see two failed states join together, I want
:08:34. > :08:36.a new beginning with services right protected in law, where our LGBT
:08:37. > :08:40.brothers and sisters are equal, where people's language rights are
:08:41. > :08:44.protected and their cultural rights are protected. This is a Westminster
:08:45. > :08:49.election. The question is why is the Constitution involved is because
:08:50. > :08:53.partition has failed, nine decades after partition, it has failed so
:08:54. > :08:57.let's look for an alternative. Let's's look towards a society we
:08:58. > :09:01.can all be proud of, a society we can all be part of and a society,
:09:02. > :09:06.and this is the most important thing, where our rights will be
:09:07. > :09:09.protected in law. APPLAUSE Robins one, is the constitutional
:09:10. > :09:17.question Lower down your priority than that of the DUP? -- Robin Swan.
:09:18. > :09:19.Andrew's was asking about health and education and specifically the
:09:20. > :09:21.well-being of the people of Northern Ireland and the important thing is
:09:22. > :09:24.to get the Northern Ireland assembly up and running again because that is
:09:25. > :09:29.where those problems are solved. APPLAUSE
:09:30. > :09:32.That is where four the five politicians sitting round these
:09:33. > :09:35.benches can get back and working and after the 8th of June, we have three
:09:36. > :09:39.weeks to do it. This election is being fought on three issues, I
:09:40. > :09:42.think, the constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the
:09:43. > :09:46.Union, an Brexit but also on the restoration of our devolved assembly
:09:47. > :09:49.and that is the important thing we need to get out and try to work
:09:50. > :09:53.together as the five parties that are here, to get the institution up
:09:54. > :09:58.and running on the 9th of June. With regard to our position in the Union,
:09:59. > :10:02.John has said Northern Ireland and we are a failed state but we are far
:10:03. > :10:05.from it. I think Northern Ireland is a great place to live, a wonderful
:10:06. > :10:10.place to live and if this election is about our position in the Union,
:10:11. > :10:15.I'm proud Unionist and I'm glad we are there but what we have to do for
:10:16. > :10:19.the 18 MPs on Thursday, we need the 18 MPs to take their seats at
:10:20. > :10:25.Westminster, who will argue Northern Ireland's position. Two years, while
:10:26. > :10:28.Brexit is being triggered, that is a crucial time for Northern Ireland
:10:29. > :10:30.but more important is the three years after that, where we position
:10:31. > :10:36.how Northern Ireland actually works and how we get the devolved and
:10:37. > :10:39.further devolved legislation back to the Northern Ireland assembly. Let
:10:40. > :10:43.me go back to Andrew and see what he things about what he has heard.
:10:44. > :10:49.Andrew, are you convinced that this is not a referendum? I'm convinced
:10:50. > :10:53.it's not a referendum but it is a shame to hear some of the
:10:54. > :10:56.politicians still indicating that it is. It sometimes seems like the
:10:57. > :11:01.assembly election and the council election, Westminster, they are all
:11:02. > :11:04.put over partially as referendums on the constitutional question, whether
:11:05. > :11:07.it is meant to be or not, that is how it comes across. It is
:11:08. > :11:13.disappointing because, you know, there are so many other issues. With
:11:14. > :11:16.Westminster, who is going to form the government, how is Northern
:11:17. > :11:19.Ireland going to have influence? What is the foreign policy going to
:11:20. > :11:23.be? There is so much more we can talk about than the issues we have
:11:24. > :11:27.talked about for the last 18 years. Geoffrey Donaldson, another quote
:11:28. > :11:32.from Arlene Foster in the manifesto, there is a need to counter the
:11:33. > :11:35.Nationalist surge, of course, the Nationalist surge in the assembly
:11:36. > :11:39.elections in March which brought Sinn Fein within 1200 votes of the
:11:40. > :11:43.DUP is the largest party in Northern Ireland. That kind of rhetoric is
:11:44. > :11:48.exactly what Andrew is complaining about. I don't think it is because
:11:49. > :11:53.Gerry Adams has said, "This election is a barometer for a border poll".
:11:54. > :11:56.So Sinn Fein regard this election, that if they do well, they will go
:11:57. > :12:00.to the Secretary of State and ask for a border poll. I believe aboard
:12:01. > :12:04.a poll would be very destabilising. Therefore, we have to respond to
:12:05. > :12:09.that. We can't sit on our hands and pretend it isn't happening. And yes,
:12:10. > :12:14.we are saying to the Unionists, you need to turn out and vote, and why?
:12:15. > :12:19.Because the Union is important to pay for the health service, to pay
:12:20. > :12:25.for our schools, for all the public services. But they did turn out in
:12:26. > :12:29.March, you got 250,000 votes. And we are pushing for a greater turnout in
:12:30. > :12:32.this election and we will get it. And John O'Dowd, whatever the result
:12:33. > :12:37.of the election, you will still push for the border poll? Yes, we will
:12:38. > :12:40.campaign for the referendum because as I said earlier, partition has
:12:41. > :12:45.failed and we need to move forward to an alternative and we see that as
:12:46. > :12:47.an agreed Ireland, a new island where unionists, Nationalist,
:12:48. > :12:50.Republicans and others have their rights protected in law but when
:12:51. > :12:54.Jeffrey Donaldson talks about the union being important, economically,
:12:55. > :12:58.I'm happy to debate it because this idea we have a subsidy, everyone in
:12:59. > :13:02.this room pays taxes and they leave these shores and go to the Treasury
:13:03. > :13:08.and then they send some back. Let's have the debate on that. You get 10
:13:09. > :13:11.billion back will stop but why don't the Treasury released the figures in
:13:12. > :13:13.terms of corporation tax and how much corporation tax is leaving
:13:14. > :13:18.these shores, how much income tax and all the other taxes citizens
:13:19. > :13:27.pay? Let me just make this point. Quickly. Who is the union important
:13:28. > :13:30.for? His is the nine rights, to LGBT communities, ethnic minorities,
:13:31. > :13:33.language speakers, all those rights are in Britain but if the union is
:13:34. > :13:38.so important, why don't we have those same right here? A couple of
:13:39. > :13:45.people from the audience. Just to John O'Dowd, you said partition has
:13:46. > :13:49.failed so do we take that to mean you have given up on negotiations to
:13:50. > :13:53.start the assembly again? No, no, we see island in transition and the
:13:54. > :13:56.assembly as part of that. I believe the assembly and the executive is
:13:57. > :14:01.the way forward. I would much prefer to see ourselves governing
:14:02. > :14:04.ourselves. We will have our disputes and arguments but when the executive
:14:05. > :14:07.was working, it was working well for citizens here so the assembly is an
:14:08. > :14:11.important part of the democratic process. I will stop you because
:14:12. > :14:16.everyone needs to get involved. Defined they partition has failed
:14:17. > :14:19.but the truth is, the real failure people are talking about to us on
:14:20. > :14:25.the doorsteps is the failure of the main parties to be able to
:14:26. > :14:29.re-establish the executive. APPLAUSE People gave both of those parties a
:14:30. > :14:35.mandate to do that back in March. And we are still sitting without an
:14:36. > :14:39.executive. Hold on, John. We are still not in a position to get the
:14:40. > :14:41.executive reform. I don't believe the problems are insurmountable if
:14:42. > :14:45.people are committed but the more you listen to what people are saying
:14:46. > :14:48.in this election, the more you doubt whether the main parties here are
:14:49. > :14:51.actually committed to re-establishing devolution. I
:14:52. > :14:53.understand we will talk in more detail about that later. Colum
:14:54. > :15:03.Eastwood, please. We can get the Assembly back up and
:15:04. > :15:06.running, if people are up for understanding that there are people
:15:07. > :15:10.here who are Irish and they aren't going anywhere, that this is the
:15:11. > :15:14.only part, if you think about it in a purely unionist term, this is the
:15:15. > :15:18.only part of the UK that doesn't have marriage equality, the only
:15:19. > :15:21.part of the UK that doesn't have a minority languages act, but all of
:15:22. > :15:25.those things can be resolved. But I don't think there is anything wrong
:15:26. > :15:27.by the way with having a constitutional position. I have one.
:15:28. > :15:30.And there's nothing wrong with it and sometimes we talk about it as if
:15:31. > :15:34.it's a bad thing. We shouldn't be afraid to have that discussion.
:15:35. > :15:37.Let's have it in a democratic and peaceful way, the kind of Ireland I
:15:38. > :15:39.believe in is one where we build up Northern Ireland, where we
:15:40. > :15:42.eventually have a united Ireland, we work towards that but we need to use
:15:43. > :15:46.the Northern Ireland Assembly and the institutions... Do you like the
:15:47. > :15:51.sound of that, Robin Swann? No, on the counter. I like the sound of
:15:52. > :15:54.unionism I am presenting and it's a positive progressive unionism that
:15:55. > :15:57.can work with Colum Eastwood and Naomi Long and John and Jeffrey to
:15:58. > :15:59.bring about a Northern Ireland that delivers for the people of Northern
:16:00. > :16:03.Ireland. There is a positivity, there is a unionism now coming out
:16:04. > :16:06.that shouldn't be seen as purely orange and green and that's
:16:07. > :16:11.something that's coming out through this general election. We are seeing
:16:12. > :16:14.Scottish candidates standing as unionists, Welsh candidates standing
:16:15. > :16:17.as unionism. Because there is a change, there is a revitalisation in
:16:18. > :16:21.what is the United Kingdom at this minute in time because of Brexit and
:16:22. > :16:26.how it's going to redefine itself and where we are going to position
:16:27. > :16:31.our self. We are going to move on to our second question, from John, a
:16:32. > :16:36.business development manager. Who isn't complicit in terrorism, how do
:16:37. > :16:41.we address the causes of terrorism? OK. This is referring of course, not
:16:42. > :16:45.least to the events of the terrible events of the last few months, two
:16:46. > :16:50.attacks in London and one in Manchester two weeks ago. Naomi
:16:51. > :16:56.Long, do you feel complicit in terrorism in some way, in any way?
:16:57. > :17:00.No, I don't. And I think that it's unfair to suggest that when people
:17:01. > :17:05.take decisions to inflict violence on other people that in some way you
:17:06. > :17:07.can blame circumstances for that. I think that's a very different
:17:08. > :17:12.conversation to the one which looks at for example how people are
:17:13. > :17:14.radicalised and how we intervene to prevent that happening. Ultimately I
:17:15. > :17:18.believe in personal responsibility. There will be many young people who
:17:19. > :17:21.grew newspaper the same community as me, some of whom choose to get
:17:22. > :17:26.involved in paramilitary activity, and some of whom didn't. Often we
:17:27. > :17:29.had the same upbringing, the same experiences but made different
:17:30. > :17:33.choices, you have to be accountable at the personal level for the
:17:34. > :17:37.decisions you make. But I think we have to be willing to have the wider
:17:38. > :17:40.conversation about what it is that leads people to feel such despair
:17:41. > :17:44.and worthlessness in their lives that they're willing to risk, in
:17:45. > :17:48.particular the cases that we have seen recently in places like London
:17:49. > :17:54.and Manchester, they're willing to squander... Is it always despair and
:17:55. > :17:57.worthletness? It is a sense of pointlessness in many cases, if you
:17:58. > :18:00.look at the typical people who have been radicalised, they're often
:18:01. > :18:05.people who are loners, who don't socialise well, who find themselves
:18:06. > :18:07.isolated and get a sense of purpose from being involved in
:18:08. > :18:11.organisations, a sense of importance, and a sense of purpose.
:18:12. > :18:14.We need to look at that very carefully, look at the circumstances
:18:15. > :18:18.as to how they've become radicalised, listen to young people
:18:19. > :18:22.who have become radicalised and have turned away from that and find
:18:23. > :18:26.solutions. So, it's not as simple as saying we are all complicit but we
:18:27. > :18:30.are all responsible for finding the solution and we can't deny personal
:18:31. > :18:33.sposhlt, we have to hold people to account for their own actions and
:18:34. > :18:40.it's right we should do that. But at the same time as a society we need
:18:41. > :18:43.to make sure that the values that we espouse, we protect that, we don't
:18:44. > :18:47.allow those who want to drive wedges in our community to do it, because
:18:48. > :18:51.we know here in Northern Ireland better than anyone when you start to
:18:52. > :18:55.divide communities it is fertile recruitment ground for those who
:18:56. > :19:01.want to dehumanise others and that is right across... On that very
:19:02. > :19:04.point, thank you, on that point, John O'Dowd, the republican moment
:19:05. > :19:07.espoused and practised violence, what do you think we have to learn
:19:08. > :19:12.from that, are those lessons you want to learn? Well, the republican
:19:13. > :19:15.movement wasn't on its own in terms of violence in this conflict. I am
:19:16. > :19:20.asking for your own movement. I am not answering for any movement, I am
:19:21. > :19:25.answering for Sinn Fein, an elected party. I am Sinn Fein, MLA, standing
:19:26. > :19:29.as a candidate in the Westminster elections with a significant
:19:30. > :19:33.mandate. Are you denying your past? No, but you are being... I am
:19:34. > :19:38.puzzled as to why you would... No, you are asking a loaded question.
:19:39. > :19:42.When you go around the rest of the members, particularly of Jeffrey,
:19:43. > :19:48.will you remind him of his UDR past... I am happy to do that. I am
:19:49. > :19:51.proud to say, what about you, I can stand here and say I am proud to
:19:52. > :19:58.have served my country in the Ulster defence regiment. Can you say the
:19:59. > :20:01.same? Thankfully I nerve served, I was harassed and threatened and my
:20:02. > :20:05.neighbours you were murdered by the Ulster defence regiment but I never
:20:06. > :20:09.served with it. The question is a legitimate question from the
:20:10. > :20:12.audience member. In terms of how we move beyond what is happening in
:20:13. > :20:16.London, how we move beyond what is happening in Manchester, there is no
:20:17. > :20:18.justification for what we have seen. Sorry, there is still terrorist
:20:19. > :20:25.violence going on in Northern Ireland today. It's not just looking
:20:26. > :20:30.at London and Manchester. And Paris. We witnessed that in Bangor. We can
:20:31. > :20:32.come to that discussion, but in terms of Manchester and London there
:20:33. > :20:37.is no justification for those attacks, there is no justification
:20:38. > :20:41.for Bangor. In terms of the outcry from world leaders, world leaders
:20:42. > :20:45.are going to have to ask the question, their actions in the
:20:46. > :20:48.Middle East, their relationship with Saudi Arabia, who is arming
:20:49. > :20:53.terrorist organisations around that region, those who funded the
:20:54. > :20:57.creation of ISIS, those who created the climate of fear and despair in
:20:58. > :21:00.the Middle East which is spreading across Europe, have to ask
:21:01. > :21:04.themselves was the invasion of Iraq the right thing to do at the time,
:21:05. > :21:07.despite the warnings about it? Is there continued relationship with
:21:08. > :21:11.Saudi Arabia the right thick to do? Are we going to have to change our
:21:12. > :21:15.policies across the globe and take into account the harm western
:21:16. > :21:19.nations are doing in the Middle East and other parts of the world and
:21:20. > :21:23.resolve those issues in a peaceful democratic way, rather than this
:21:24. > :21:31.phrase of war on terror? Because war on terror means death of civilians
:21:32. > :21:35.in the Middle East and elsewhere. Robin Swann. John needs to remember
:21:36. > :21:39.Libya also supported terrorism here in Northern Ireland, as well. But
:21:40. > :21:43.are we complicit in terrorism I think is the question. We are
:21:44. > :21:48.complicit in we don't stand up against it. We are complicit if we
:21:49. > :21:51.don't speak out against it and do everything that we can to inform the
:21:52. > :21:55.intelligence service and to inform society that what is being
:21:56. > :22:02.perpetrated, what is being promoted is not acceptable in any
:22:03. > :22:06.circumstance. We need to do that and coming back to Naomi's point, yk
:22:07. > :22:10.young people don't always have the choice and that's why we see dangers
:22:11. > :22:15.through radicalisation of young people and that's where I agree with
:22:16. > :22:18.Theresa May and her agenda to tackle that radicalisation at root cause
:22:19. > :22:24.because if we can get young people and get them a purpose, that isn't
:22:25. > :22:29.going down the valley of destruction and death, that is terrorism, but we
:22:30. > :22:34.can focus those energies into the creative citizenship they need to
:22:35. > :22:39.be, and that complicitness is something we all have to challenge.
:22:40. > :22:43.It's that complicitness I think that we have the ability across society
:22:44. > :22:46.and it's across the world and across each individual's core sense of
:22:47. > :22:52.purpose, we have to challenge terrorism by supporting our young
:22:53. > :22:55.people to make sure they no longer see those terrorism activities as a
:22:56. > :23:02.valued opportunity for a way to destroy life or destroy their own
:23:03. > :23:08.lives. Jeffrey Donaldson, we talked to John O'Dowd about republican
:23:09. > :23:12.violence. The loyal Loyalist Communities Council has endorsed
:23:13. > :23:14.three DUP candidates in this election, will you unequivocally
:23:15. > :23:21.divorce yourself from that endorsement? Yes. OK. We have been
:23:22. > :23:25.very clear, we do not accept support from anyone who is engaged in
:23:26. > :23:30.paramilitary or criminal activity. There is no equiffation on our
:23:31. > :23:34.part... There was for 15 minutes on Talkback today. It took 15 minutes
:23:35. > :23:40.to get to the Sam point today that you reached straightaway. That is
:23:41. > :23:47.not true. That's progress! We will take no lectures from the alliance
:23:48. > :23:52.Party. The alliance Party washes it hands and says it doesn't do this
:23:53. > :23:55.and that and yet as you know your colleague Chris Little meets
:23:56. > :24:00.regularly with the people that you are now condemning. Yes, he does.
:24:01. > :24:03.No. No, he doesn't. We will take no lectures from Sinn Fein either.
:24:04. > :24:08.There is a difference between meeting people and having them
:24:09. > :24:14.endorse your campaign. Even... One at a time. Even Donald Trump said he
:24:15. > :24:19.didn't want the... One at a time, please. Let me speak. Thank you. We
:24:20. > :24:22.want to work with those who want the paramilitaries to leave the stage.
:24:23. > :24:27.We will continue to do that. We will continue to do it with the LCC
:24:28. > :24:30.because we have got to get the loyalist paramilitaries off the
:24:31. > :24:33.backs of the communities. You won't do that by standing back and
:24:34. > :24:37.lecturing people and passing judgment. You have to engage. You
:24:38. > :24:43.have to go and talk and sit and persuade people to do this. Would
:24:44. > :24:47.you talk to ISIS? I don't see any point in talking to ISI sichlt
:24:48. > :24:51.because they're not interested in any democratic transition. I will
:24:52. > :24:55.tell you what I would do and it goes back to the question asked
:24:56. > :24:59.originally. We have a watch list, the security services in this
:25:00. > :25:04.country of people who are already radicalised. It's too late for these
:25:05. > :25:08.people. Why do we continue to allow these people to remain in our midst
:25:09. > :25:12.when they represent a serious threat to the security of our country and
:25:13. > :25:16.to the safety and well-being of our citizens? Why do we have to always
:25:17. > :25:20.wait until innocent people and their blood is spilled on our streets
:25:21. > :25:27.before we do something about this cancer in our midst? OK. Colum
:25:28. > :25:31.Eastwood. We are at it again. The question was about terrorist attacks
:25:32. > :25:35.in London and Manchester. It wasn't actually, it was about how do we
:25:36. > :25:37.oppose terrorism and its causes? The world is talking about London and
:25:38. > :25:41.Manchester. It's a broader question. We shouldn't be trying to find a way
:25:42. > :25:45.to fight with ourselves again about what happened in the past. Let's
:25:46. > :25:50.focus on what's happening in Britain. We need to not have an
:25:51. > :25:53.overreaction. Not curb human rights. Not go for a big security response.
:25:54. > :25:57.We need to speak to those young people who are open to being
:25:58. > :26:01.radicalised, go to where they are. We also need to understand the
:26:02. > :26:05.context of this is also, it's not the only reason, but it's also the
:26:06. > :26:07.fact that the British Government along with other governments
:26:08. > :26:11.including the American Government have gone to places in the Middle
:26:12. > :26:15.East and destroyed countries. Now the SDLP go to Westminster, speak
:26:16. > :26:20.against that, vote against that, we are part of the movement in
:26:21. > :26:23.Westminster to stop ill-thought out attacks and air strikes in Syria,
:26:24. > :26:26.that's what you have to do, you have to go and speak up and vote against
:26:27. > :26:33.those types of things. That's how you get things done. John O'Dowd,
:26:34. > :26:39.you wanted to come back. They didn't stop it in Westminster. We did. We
:26:40. > :26:42.stopped the attacks in Syria. I fully agree with anyone engaging
:26:43. > :26:46.with loyalist organisations to get them to leave the stage. But the DUP
:26:47. > :26:53.and UDA relationship is not about either leaving the stage. It's about
:26:54. > :26:59.both of them dominating the stage. The DUP used the UDA during
:27:00. > :27:04.elections... Nonsense. That is complete nonsense. Just take a look
:27:05. > :27:09.at this photograph, John, which is of your colleague who is the
:27:10. > :27:12.candidate in South Belfast, standing with someone I think you will
:27:13. > :27:19.recognise. Someone very close... We can't see, you better tell us. There
:27:20. > :27:25.it is. You know, so, when John lectures us... It's Jackie McDonald.
:27:26. > :27:30.Oshg. When we get lectures from Sinn Fein there will be a story in
:27:31. > :27:33.tomorrow's Belfast Telegraph that the Shankill bomber responsible for
:27:34. > :27:37.the murder of nine innocent people on the Shankill road is out
:27:38. > :27:41.campaigning for Sinn Fein in this election. Can you imagine Sean
:27:42. > :27:46.Kelly, the Shankill bomber arriving on your doorstep? Sean Kelly is out
:27:47. > :27:51.canvassing to promote politics in the peace process. The UDA and DUP
:27:52. > :27:55.relationship is about remaining centre stage. The DUP used the UDA
:27:56. > :28:01.for elections, the UDA used the DUP... How did we use them? They're
:28:02. > :28:06.canvassing at the moment. Nonsense. Endorsing your candidates. Can I
:28:07. > :28:10.just... He has rejected any such endorsement. Colum Eastwood, do you
:28:11. > :28:14.share John O'Dowd's view? It's astonishing that we have a
:28:15. > :28:18.UDA-linked organisation out promoting candidates in this
:28:19. > :28:21.election. I am glad now... It was set up by Jonathan Powell, the
:28:22. > :28:26.right-hand man of Tony Blair. That's fine. I am glad now that Jeffrey has
:28:27. > :28:31.said unequivocally he doesn't want their support. It took him a long
:28:32. > :28:36.time to do that and thankfully they're there. I issued a statement
:28:37. > :28:39.immediately on it. Look at some of the things that went on in
:28:40. > :28:42.Government around Red Sky and everything else, it's about time all
:28:43. > :28:45.of us step away from those types of people. All of us challenge them to
:28:46. > :28:49.move away from the types of activities they're involved in. I am
:28:50. > :28:52.not sure that's happening. I want to go to the audience.
:28:53. > :28:57.APPLAUSE. A young lady in the back row. Sorry
:28:58. > :28:59.so interrupt the bickering! I want to highlight this is a general
:29:00. > :29:03.election, not an Assembly election. I want to go back to Naomi Long's
:29:04. > :29:06.point, she mentioned how we need to talk to people who have been
:29:07. > :29:10.radicalised. I think that's a good point. We need to recognise this
:29:11. > :29:15.isn't just an international problem, a foreign policy problem. This is a
:29:16. > :29:19.domestic problem. This isn't a migration issue, this is people here
:29:20. > :29:23.in our country being radicalised and brainwashed and they are being
:29:24. > :29:26.radicalised to do things like this in Manchester and London. It's
:29:27. > :29:30.important to highlight that we need to talk to our poen people and not
:29:31. > :29:35.just focus on deporting people who you think are guilty. There was
:29:36. > :29:44.another hand there. She asked the same question I was being to ask.
:29:45. > :29:49.Just on that. There was someone who was radicalised and works to provide
:29:50. > :29:52.counternarratives to those Islamist terrorists who wish to radicalise
:29:53. > :29:55.young people and it's hugely important we use strong voices like
:29:56. > :29:59.that to provide a counternarrative and to provide an alternative voice
:30:00. > :30:03.for young people who perhaps through reasons of despair and lack of hope
:30:04. > :30:06.actually see this as a way of gaining some notoriety. He is a
:30:07. > :30:08.classic example of someone who can do that effectively and he is that's
:30:09. > :30:19.voices we should be capturing. Thank you for that, now moving on to
:30:20. > :30:23.the third question for Michelle, a volunteer coordinator. My question
:30:24. > :30:29.would be, what are each of the party leaders going to do to ensure the
:30:30. > :30:32.best possible deal for Northern Ireland post-Brexit? Are, the Brexit
:30:33. > :30:38.question, of course. Colum Eastwood, Arlene Foster said that before the
:30:39. > :30:41.pause in talks in Northern Ireland for the general election, the
:30:42. > :30:46.parties were close to agreeing the EU exit we wanted to see. Is that
:30:47. > :30:49.your interpretation of what was going on? It is hard to know because
:30:50. > :30:53.the DUP came to a lot of meetings and did not engage in a lot of them
:30:54. > :30:56.but I did see some hope in the Brexit stream of the negotiations.
:30:57. > :31:00.We have said from the outset we need to have special status for Northern
:31:01. > :31:06.Ireland. That means using the Good Friday agreement, it is great now we
:31:07. > :31:09.have the European Union and the Good Friday agreement has to be
:31:10. > :31:12.protected, that comes from a lot of the work we did in the Brexit
:31:13. > :31:15.committee and a lot of work Mark Durkin did in the Brexit committee
:31:16. > :31:17.in Westminster, even though the committee is full of people like
:31:18. > :31:21.Michael Gove and everything, who wanted to leave, we still got it
:31:22. > :31:26.through. But we have to use the Good Friday agreement, the thing called
:31:27. > :31:30.North-South institutions, we can use them to have special recognition and
:31:31. > :31:33.status, customs Union access, single market access for businesses. That
:31:34. > :31:37.is what we can do at its very possible. That is why we proposed
:31:38. > :31:40.the motion in the assembly, that is why I've been travelling around
:31:41. > :31:43.Europe, meeting with sister parties and we have 190 MEPs, eight
:31:44. > :31:47.commissioners and eight by ministers, that is why people are
:31:48. > :31:54.listening to us in Northern Ireland. We would be better if we had a
:31:55. > :31:57.government here the case and I would love the DUP to come to that
:31:58. > :32:00.position but it is unfortunate, the DUP were absolutely complicit in
:32:01. > :32:02.trying to drag it out of the EU and young people and people in general
:32:03. > :32:10.in Northern Ireland voted against that vision for the future. It a
:32:11. > :32:15.nationwide referendum. APPLAUSE Robbins Swan, many of those things
:32:16. > :32:18.could have come out of your mouth, your manifesto talks about no hard
:32:19. > :32:23.border, ensuring the best deal for Brexit, assurance for those in
:32:24. > :32:28.receipt of EU funds, and the Common travel area but for you, a special
:32:29. > :32:31.status is the back door to united Ireland? That's great because as
:32:32. > :32:34.Colum Eastwood says, Northern Ireland's position is recognised in
:32:35. > :32:39.the Good Friday agreement by the principle of consent. That is where
:32:40. > :32:42.we have do locate the argument. Special status, I believe, is
:32:43. > :32:46.something the Republic of Ireland should be looking for is that they
:32:47. > :32:51.can continue their trade with Northern Ireland and GB, 70 yard and
:32:52. > :32:55.80% of the trade coming out of Ireland. Wouldn't special status
:32:56. > :33:01.will both be better? We don't need it, Northern Ireland, as part of the
:33:02. > :33:04.UK, is leaving the EU as part of a UK wide referendum, the UK entered
:33:05. > :33:07.the easy as one nation and it will leave the European Union as one
:33:08. > :33:13.nation. Article 50 has been triggered though the most important
:33:14. > :33:17.part of it is the 18 MPs of Northern Ireland going across to Westminster
:33:18. > :33:20.and are giving our point. The best time that Northern Ireland ever
:33:21. > :33:26.gained out of Europe was when the three MEPs, John Hume, Ian Paisley
:33:27. > :33:29.and Jim Nicholson, were in Europe, arguing on behalf of Northern
:33:30. > :33:33.Ireland. The best meal Northern Ireland will get out of leaving the
:33:34. > :33:38.European Union is when they have 18 MPs sitting on the benches of
:33:39. > :33:42.Westminster, arguing our case as Northern Ireland plc. Do you find it
:33:43. > :33:50.hard, Jeffrey, to argue for the best Brexit case when you wanted it? No,
:33:51. > :33:54.not at all. In fact, I believe that Brexit, the UK will thrive as a
:33:55. > :33:57.result of having, for the first time in decades, the opportunity to enter
:33:58. > :34:01.into new trade agreements with many countries. The world has changed
:34:02. > :34:06.dramatically since the European Union was established. I think the
:34:07. > :34:12.UK will do well. But you want to leave the biggest market in the
:34:13. > :34:15.world. No, 73% of the goods that leave Belfast bought go to Great
:34:16. > :34:20.Britain. The idea that this country is dependent upon the European
:34:21. > :34:24.Union... Northern Ireland is inextricably linked to the rest of
:34:25. > :34:28.the United Kingdom. That is where our future is. We sell far more
:34:29. > :34:32.goods to GB than we do to any other, all the other countries. But you
:34:33. > :34:36.would close down access to the biggest market in the wild, 500
:34:37. > :34:40.million people. We are part of the best most successful economy in the
:34:41. > :34:45.world. Six since Brexit. They want to take us out of that the join an
:34:46. > :34:49.economy that has been stagnant in the past. Hang on, your manifesto
:34:50. > :34:54.talks of easing of trade with the Republic of Ireland and the EU, no
:34:55. > :34:58.internal UK Borders, maintain the CTA so you are in agreement with the
:34:59. > :35:02.rest of the parties on those major issues. We are absolutely. You know
:35:03. > :35:07.what we need more than anything else? We need an executive Forum to
:35:08. > :35:12.speak for Northern Ireland. -- executive formed. We need our own
:35:13. > :35:15.government, and with all due respect to Naomi, who gives culturing
:35:16. > :35:19.fighter Sinn Fein, but let me nail it here, next Monday, we will be a
:35:20. > :35:24.Stormont, ready to form a government, no preconditions. Will
:35:25. > :35:28.you join the executive? The alliance abandoned power-sharing executive
:35:29. > :35:33.last around. No we didn't. She speaks of the need for power-sharing
:35:34. > :35:37.Budgie was not part of it. You are clearly out of touch. Will you share
:35:38. > :35:42.power with us? You are clearly out of touch with what happened last
:35:43. > :35:45.time because we have made it clear we will share power with any of the
:35:46. > :35:50.parties. I haven't finished! Do you want to come and stand here? Origin
:35:51. > :35:56.there will you the of representing Northern Ireland? He does not want
:35:57. > :35:59.to talk about it. Leave the restoration of the assembly for one
:36:00. > :36:02.minute, I'm quite sure we will come back to it. We will need to because
:36:03. > :36:06.we need to clarify what he said about us. You will have the
:36:07. > :36:12.opportunity. John O'Dowd, what will your body do to ensure the best
:36:13. > :36:15.possible price Brexit deal for Northern Ireland? This is why this
:36:16. > :36:19.election is important because parties will be seeking mandates for
:36:20. > :36:22.the negotiations to follow. Not only in relation to the important issue
:36:23. > :36:27.of the executive but also to the very important issue of Brexit, and
:36:28. > :36:30.when Sinn Fein gets a strong vote, Dublin, London and Brussels set up
:36:31. > :36:34.and listen and it has been shown that when Sinn Fein has a strong
:36:35. > :36:43.mandate and we go to negotiations... You don't want to use your mandate.
:36:44. > :36:46.Big deal. We're talking about using your mandate, he talks about the
:36:47. > :36:49.Good Friday repayment. Colum Eastwood walked away from the
:36:50. > :36:54.North-South ministerial Council which we brought proposals to along
:36:55. > :36:57.with the DUP. You have abandoned the North-South ministerial Council, the
:36:58. > :37:00.one body that would bring the two parts of this island together to try
:37:01. > :37:04.to work through Brexit and you have abandoned it, left it, John, you
:37:05. > :37:07.have left Abbott, abandoned the executive, left Northern Ireland
:37:08. > :37:14.without a voice, you are not going to seek -- take your seat in
:37:15. > :37:16.Stormont or Westminster. APPLAUSE The North-South ministerial Council
:37:17. > :37:21.put together proposals around Brexit. The SDLP did not turn up to
:37:22. > :37:24.those meetings because they abstain from the North-South ministerial
:37:25. > :37:30.Council. That is nonsense, no, that's nonsense. We were in the
:37:31. > :37:37.negotiation. Let me finish, you have made an accusation. I will let you
:37:38. > :37:41.come back. The executive was putting together proposals in addition to
:37:42. > :37:44.dealing with the worst aspects of Brexit but it was not a solution and
:37:45. > :37:47.the SDLP at abstain from that as well. In terms of where this is
:37:48. > :37:50.going next, this is going to be negotiated in the European
:37:51. > :37:54.Parliament and Sinn Fein has the largest delegation of MEPs from the
:37:55. > :37:59.island of Ireland. It will be negotiated in Dublin and the Dail,
:38:00. > :38:03.where Sinn Fein have members. And in London, where Sinn Fein don't take
:38:04. > :38:07.their seats. But not in Westminster, it will be negotiated... No
:38:08. > :38:12.negotiation will take place in the four Westminster. Bringing in Colum
:38:13. > :38:14.Eastwood. I'm glad Sinn Fein to Strasbourg at the European
:38:15. > :38:17.Parliament. I don't think they shouldn't go, they tell me we should
:38:18. > :38:20.not go to London but they sit in a fringe group in the European
:38:21. > :38:25.Parliament, with people like the Communist Party of Bohemia and
:38:26. > :38:30.Moravia. Is your influence in the European Parliament. APPLAUSE
:38:31. > :38:35.We have 190 MEPs, in my alliance, and I meet with the leaders almost
:38:36. > :38:38.every month. You sit with a bunch of communists, what is your influence?
:38:39. > :38:43.When you have a big mandate you tell everyone about, you don't can use
:38:44. > :38:48.it. The idea you would sit out this election, won this election and not
:38:49. > :38:52.use your mandate means people panic about Brexit, you won't go and do
:38:53. > :38:57.anything. And what could happen because of that? We will see again a
:38:58. > :39:01.Prime Minister who wants to bring in a hard border in Ireland, a hard
:39:02. > :39:04.Tory Brexit, that is what she wants but you won't go and count against
:39:05. > :39:12.them. We will be there to count against her and try to get a Labour
:39:13. > :39:15.government. APPLAUSE First of all, I think you have seen
:39:16. > :39:20.white is so difficult to get an executive restored, when you get
:39:21. > :39:22.hectored constantly. -- why it is so difficult. Jeffrey does not want to
:39:23. > :39:28.hear what actually happened at the time. I'm listening. That's good to
:39:29. > :39:33.know, but you do that with your ears. I'm listening. APPLAUSE
:39:34. > :39:38.When it comes to the executive, we did not walk away, let's be very
:39:39. > :39:43.clear. We saw the writing on the wall for the executive. We saw the
:39:44. > :39:46.imminent collapse will stop and you walked away. I'm going to give you a
:39:47. > :39:50.chance to talk about that in a moment but I want you to talk about
:39:51. > :39:55.Brexit for this question. You will have every opportunity. I have to
:39:56. > :39:58.because of what I said before. But in terms of Brexit it is hugely
:39:59. > :40:02.important we get the right deal. We have to still have access to the UK
:40:03. > :40:05.market but we also have to deal with the issue that any kind of hard
:40:06. > :40:09.border, any kind of differentiation in terms of customs or access to the
:40:10. > :40:13.customs Union will have a devastating impact on Northern
:40:14. > :40:18.Ireland. Much of our business, the agri- food sector, the health
:40:19. > :40:21.sector, and many others, are dependent on the cross-border trade
:40:22. > :40:25.and cooperation. If we lose the opportunity to have access to the
:40:26. > :40:29.single market, to have access to the customs Union, then we damage the
:40:30. > :40:32.very businesses we are building our financial and economic success on,
:40:33. > :40:35.that are going to grow the jobs for the future and give us
:40:36. > :40:40.opportunities. We need to get a good deal. It is in everyone's interests
:40:41. > :40:47.to do that. I am still not convinced that Brexit is a good decision but
:40:48. > :40:50.it is the decision that has been taken. My concern is it is a
:40:51. > :40:53.marginal decision in the UK. The country is split. I think a wise
:40:54. > :40:56.head, as Prime Minister, would choose to take a slightly softer
:40:57. > :41:03.approach, to try to bring people together, to try to find a
:41:04. > :41:05.compromise that lets its stick to the referendum result but at the
:41:06. > :41:09.same time hold onto those key issues which are crucial for economic
:41:10. > :41:12.future. She is going for a recklessly hard Brexit and she has
:41:13. > :41:18.been aided and abetted every step of the way by Jeffrey and his
:41:19. > :41:24.colleagues. Is that a negotiating stance? It is not a very good
:41:25. > :41:28.negotiating position when other people in Europe are dismissing you
:41:29. > :41:31.because simply what she's doing is ignoring the reality and it is not
:41:32. > :41:34.creating the kind of certainty which will allow people to go ahead with
:41:35. > :41:37.investment in business, that will allow people to go ahead and plan
:41:38. > :41:40.for the future and that is what a Prime Minister or to be doing. I'm
:41:41. > :41:45.going to bring in the audience, the lady in the blue jacket there. I'm
:41:46. > :41:49.listening to all the plans and everything, in terms of protecting
:41:50. > :41:53.the status quo but what are we actually doing to invest in our
:41:54. > :41:58.companies in order to prepare them for hard Brexit if it actually
:41:59. > :42:00.happens? You know, what are we doing? There is no discussion about
:42:01. > :42:06.how we are helping companies actually prepare for the investment?
:42:07. > :42:10.Because to build trade in the Far East or in other, you know,
:42:11. > :42:15.economies outside the EU will take five years. But it's not going to
:42:16. > :42:21.happen here and now. This gentleman. I can't think that Naomi
:42:22. > :42:24.entertaining the idea that Brexit might be good or I potentially not
:42:25. > :42:30.by decision. It will be a disaster. I did not say that. You said you
:42:31. > :42:35.were not sure if it's a good idea. I said I was not in favour, I'm still
:42:36. > :42:39.not in favour but I'm Democrat. It is an iceberg and we need to change
:42:40. > :42:43.course. I agree with you. Culturally, it is a threat to us
:42:44. > :42:48.all, a huge threat. It has to be opposed. The lady in the front. I
:42:49. > :42:51.think it is laughable that Jeffrey is continually saying that we need
:42:52. > :42:56.to customise the voice of the majority. You don't trust of the --
:42:57. > :42:59.trust the voice of the majority who want marriage equality, the 56% in
:43:00. > :43:03.the North who voted to remain and the young people in this room and
:43:04. > :43:05.elsewhere who voted overwhelmingly to remain as you don't reflect the
:43:06. > :43:12.rights of the majority here. APPLAUSE
:43:13. > :43:15.There were a couple here. Brexit is happening whether we like it or not,
:43:16. > :43:20.why can't you sit down at the table and get on with it because we need
:43:21. > :43:24.the best deal. One more. I've probably knocked on as many doors as
:43:25. > :43:27.Jeffrey and I haven't heard anyone talking about the issues that you
:43:28. > :43:30.two have been bickering about all night. What they are worried about
:43:31. > :43:35.is issues like we heard before, schools, doctors, and the health
:43:36. > :43:39.service but also, they are interested in the real Brexit issues
:43:40. > :43:43.you have not addressed yet, so could you perhaps move on and answer the
:43:44. > :43:50.lady's question properly? We don't have time to go through it again but
:43:51. > :43:54.I will ask Robin to address that. Linked to... Are we investing in the
:43:55. > :43:57.right places? Do we have a plan at all? Know because you've listened to
:43:58. > :44:04.the two main executive parties are doing and bickering here today. Nine
:44:05. > :44:09.days, 11 days after that, Theresa May will start negotiating Brexit,
:44:10. > :44:13.whether she -- if she continues to be Prime Minister. Where will we be?
:44:14. > :44:16.Still sitting around the table trying to reform the executive. That
:44:17. > :44:20.is what is wrong. And when you can see how these two gentlemen perform
:44:21. > :44:23.tonight, if that is how their bodies will perform after the 9th of June
:44:24. > :44:27.the other parties try to get Stormont and running again, I am
:44:28. > :44:31.despairing we will have any support. It brings us nicely to the last
:44:32. > :44:36.question which comes from Tara, an architect.
:44:37. > :44:41.A lot of people are fed up with politicians passing the buck and
:44:42. > :44:45.blaming the other side when things go wrong. Bearing this in mind, does
:44:46. > :44:50.your party there any responsibility for the current impasse at Stormont?
:44:51. > :44:56.I will go straight to Naomi because I promised you a chance to talk back
:44:57. > :44:57.to Jeffrey who accused you of walking out of the assembly. Let's
:44:58. > :45:07.hear it. We put forward proposals nine months
:45:08. > :45:11.ago. We didn't qualify to be in the Executive. We were asked if we would
:45:12. > :45:14.consider taking on the justice ministry. We had been in the
:45:15. > :45:17.previous Executive, sat there with two ministers and I think they had
:45:18. > :45:22.done an excellent job. But what we discovered as time went on was that
:45:23. > :45:24.the DUP were coming - more difficult to work with, they weren't
:45:25. > :45:28.respectful of their partners in Government. So we weren't with a set
:45:29. > :45:32.of proposals, with five things that needed to happen. Five things that I
:45:33. > :45:35.have to say had they happened would have prevented the collapse of the
:45:36. > :45:39.Executive this time. Because they would have dealt with things like
:45:40. > :45:43.the abuse of the petition of concern, the lack of respect between
:45:44. > :45:47.parties, more collectivity and all those things. But we were basically
:45:48. > :45:51.drummed out of the first and Deputy First Minister's office to the sound
:45:52. > :45:57.of fists being banged on the table to tell us no. So, at the end of the
:45:58. > :46:01.day there is only so hard you can push against that. We took a
:46:02. > :46:04.responsible decision to go into constructive opposition and that
:46:05. > :46:06.meant supporting the Executive on occasion, where they were doing the
:46:07. > :46:09.right thing and holding them to account when they weren't. You have
:46:10. > :46:11.addressed that. The question is do you bear any responsibility for the
:46:12. > :46:15.impasse, do you feel responsibility? No, I don't feel any responsibility
:46:16. > :46:17.for the impasse because we have been at the talks, we have provided
:46:18. > :46:22.constructive solutions to the issues. We have sought to bridge the
:46:23. > :46:25.gap, often gaps that exist between other parties that would not be a
:46:26. > :46:30.barrier to us going into Government. I say this, we may not bear any of
:46:31. > :46:33.the responsibility for the collapse, but we absolutely want to bear the
:46:34. > :46:36.weight of work that has to be done to get the Executive re-established.
:46:37. > :46:40.Thank you. John O'Dowd, any responsibility for Sinn Fein? Yes.
:46:41. > :46:43.Go on. Sinn Fein brought down the Executive because corruption was at
:46:44. > :46:48.the heart of Government. ?500 million of public funds being wasted
:46:49. > :46:52.on the now infamous RHI scheme. We offered Arlene Foster a way out, we
:46:53. > :46:56.asked her to step aside for four weeks. While these allegations were
:46:57. > :46:59.investigated? While allegations were investigated, yes. Allegations of
:47:00. > :47:03.corruption, not corruption, allegations. Allegations of
:47:04. > :47:07.corruption, OK, Noel, if that keeps you happy. We asked her to step
:47:08. > :47:11.aside. And the courts. Let me finish. She refused to do that, that
:47:12. > :47:15.brought the only circumstances that could have happened in any
:47:16. > :47:17.democratic institution. The institutions collapsed and we went
:47:18. > :47:21.to the people seeking mandates for all. Now we have a responsibility to
:47:22. > :47:24.do, and yes, we have a responsibility in this, is to get
:47:25. > :47:27.those institutions up and going again with the equality and respect
:47:28. > :47:32.and integrity at the heart of Government. Given that the RHI, this
:47:33. > :47:36.is the renewable heat initiative for viewers on the BBC News channel and
:47:37. > :47:40.BBC parliament which was incentives given to businesses who employed
:47:41. > :47:44.renewable technology, renewable heat technology, that's in the hands of
:47:45. > :47:47.an inquiry, a judge. What's to stop you going back in as Jeffrey
:47:48. > :47:50.Donaldson said, we will be there on Monday, will you? There are
:47:51. > :47:55.outstanding agreements that need to be implemented. Those agreements
:47:56. > :47:58.came as compromises. We compromised on issues, others compromised. Now
:47:59. > :48:01.those compromises have to be implemented because despite what the
:48:02. > :48:05.other parties are saying, you don't get everything you want when you go
:48:06. > :48:08.into a power-sharing executive are to a coalition, you have to
:48:09. > :48:11.compromise. We compromised in the past, other agreements were supposed
:48:12. > :48:15.to be implemented, they vice-president been. Now's the time
:48:16. > :48:18.to implement. Robin Swann. We took hard decisions to get the
:48:19. > :48:23.institutions up and running at the start. We despair to see the
:48:24. > :48:26.positions we have been put into. Sinn Fein collapsed the
:48:27. > :48:30.institutions, I believe, for opportunism. They saw the
:48:31. > :48:39.opportunity and took it. APPLAUSE. You... You have had your
:48:40. > :48:43.chance. John. You will have a response to respond. I did chair the
:48:44. > :48:46.Public Accounts Committee. That investigated the RHI. John, let
:48:47. > :48:49.Robin Swann speak. You will have a chance. When it comes back to
:48:50. > :48:53.restoring the institutions there needs to be a mindset, there was
:48:54. > :48:57.accusations made to Naomi Long going into opposition. We went into
:48:58. > :49:01.opposition after the last election because we thought there was an
:49:02. > :49:03.opportunity actually to bring mature politics into Northern Ireland where
:49:04. > :49:08.we could have a Government and an opposition. But what happened was
:49:09. > :49:10.that Sinn Fein and the DUP couldn't actually maintain the relationship
:49:11. > :49:14.of proper Government and that's another reason the Executive fell.
:49:15. > :49:18.To get up and running again we need to see changes in the institutions.
:49:19. > :49:23.We need to see reform of the petition of concern. We need to see
:49:24. > :49:28.our ministers accountable. And that will do away with a lot of of the
:49:29. > :49:33.scandals, when the ministers take responsibility for their decisions
:49:34. > :49:36.that they do in other legislators. Jeffrey Donaldson, your manifesto,
:49:37. > :49:38.priorities for deal to restore devolution, will it increase support
:49:39. > :49:43.for Northern Ireland's position in the UK, is it consistent with NI
:49:44. > :49:47.remaining a full integral part of the UK, is it compatible with
:49:48. > :49:51.citizenship, will it result in better Government... That sounds
:49:52. > :49:55.like a lot of red lines It doesn't, Noel, because that's in relation to
:49:56. > :50:00.an agreement. We are saying why can't we negotiate and we did
:50:01. > :50:03.before, we had a functioning Government and Executive and
:50:04. > :50:09.Assembly and we negotiated in parallel with that. I agree with
:50:10. > :50:12.you, on the doorstep - it worked in the Stormont House Agreement, Colum.
:50:13. > :50:15.We were in Government and we were negotiating. It happens all the
:50:16. > :50:20.time. I am sorry, when John says the only option people have is to pull
:50:21. > :50:24.down a Government, the same scheme in Great Britain has overspent by a
:50:25. > :50:28.far greater amount than the scheme... But nobody has brought
:50:29. > :50:33.down the Government. In the end political stability is important.
:50:34. > :50:36.It's what people need. I repeat, Noel, on Monday, we will go to
:50:37. > :50:41.Stormont if the other parties will join us, we will have the Assembly.
:50:42. > :50:45.We will form the Executive with no preconditions. In parallel with
:50:46. > :50:48.that, while we are getting on with the business of delivering for
:50:49. > :50:51.people on public services and the things that really matter to people,
:50:52. > :50:54.we will negotiate these other things. We are not going to run away
:50:55. > :50:58.from negotiations. But why are others running away from Government?
:50:59. > :51:01.That's the big question. We take responsibility. We will go in, we
:51:02. > :51:05.will help to govern and we are looking for partners to do that. I
:51:06. > :51:07.am looking around this table and I am asking the question, who will
:51:08. > :51:11.join us on Monday to form a Government? Colum Eastwood, will you
:51:12. > :51:15.be there? If Arlene Foster had taken responsibility last Christmas we
:51:16. > :51:19.wouldn't be in this mess. Well, she didn't. What we need to do now is
:51:20. > :51:22.focus on the future. We have a couple of weeks after this election
:51:23. > :51:25.to get things back up and running. I think we can. We have put in
:51:26. > :51:30.proposal after proposal after proposal to get things moving. If we
:51:31. > :51:33.change one thing, the petition of concern, to make sure it's not a
:51:34. > :51:37.block on rights and it's there to protect rights, we can have marriage
:51:38. > :51:41.equality, an Irish language act, all those things people want to see
:51:42. > :51:46.happening. Maybe. All of which we said nine months ago and no one else
:51:47. > :51:49.would expend any political capital whatsoever in backing us, not Sinn
:51:50. > :51:56.Fein, not the SDLP, not the Ulster Unionists and the DUP. This was an
:51:57. > :51:59.SDLP policy from the very beginning. It was in the Good Friday Agreement.
:52:00. > :52:03.Petition of concern being reformed was not written into the Good Friday
:52:04. > :52:07.Agreement, with all due respect, that's a ludicrous proposition. We
:52:08. > :52:11.have been talking about reforming the petition of concern since it was
:52:12. > :52:14.written badly. Nobody backed us up. Let's get moving on how we can solve
:52:15. > :52:19.our problems. The biggest problem we are facing, in July who's going to
:52:20. > :52:23.be running the health service, the economy in Northern Ireland? Theresa
:52:24. > :52:26.May potentially. Do we want that happening? If it does happen, we
:52:27. > :52:30.need people to go and defend the rights of people here and make sure
:52:31. > :52:33.we don't have a Tory Party destroying our health service. The
:52:34. > :52:37.Secretary of State has said you have 21 days after this election. We will
:52:38. > :52:40.be there on Monday and every day and we will work with whoever we have to
:52:41. > :52:44.get things up and running. He want to be in Government, we wanted to be
:52:45. > :52:48.in Government last year by the way but people wouldn't negotiate back.
:52:49. > :52:51.Absolutely. The other opposition parties can tell you that's exactly
:52:52. > :52:55.what happened. Nobody walked away, people wanted to be in Government,
:52:56. > :52:58.they weren't able because no one would negotiate back. We were faced
:52:59. > :53:03.with arrogance. APPLAUSE. Let me take some
:53:04. > :53:08.statements from the... With the likes of schools and so on, we have
:53:09. > :53:12.received letters to say budget cuts, possibly up to 6%, because the
:53:13. > :53:15.accept can't be forced. As voters, we don't get value for money for
:53:16. > :53:19.yourselves because the fact you have wasted so long arguing, you are
:53:20. > :53:22.getting paid to be there. Why not money reinvested because we want to
:53:23. > :53:25.see return for what you are doing for us and based on tonight all you
:53:26. > :53:32.are doing is arguing and it's worrying. This gentleman in front.
:53:33. > :53:35.Yes, well, it seems to me that any elected representative should go and
:53:36. > :53:39.vote on issues, they should represent the people. Sinn Fein
:53:40. > :53:42.aren't doing that. I would like to think that all parties are going to
:53:43. > :53:45.go to Westminster, they're going to sit in the Assembly, they're going
:53:46. > :53:50.to represent the people they're going to vote on important issues
:53:51. > :54:01.and not duck hard decisions. OK. Any others? What would a re-established
:54:02. > :54:04.Stormont do for the 1950s born women disproportionately affected by two
:54:05. > :54:09.increases in state pension age by up to and including six years with
:54:10. > :54:13.little or no notice? That's a very specific question. It's going to be
:54:14. > :54:17.something dealt with at Westminster. It's something that... It already
:54:18. > :54:25.went through Westminster and you didn't stop it. It's been going on
:54:26. > :54:30.sometime... If I could answer the question. The boys can argue amongst
:54:31. > :54:33.themselves. The issue here is about women who have not had the time to
:54:34. > :54:36.prepare for the changes to their pension. There is a movement within
:54:37. > :54:40.Westminster to try to get that changed. I have to move on from
:54:41. > :54:50.this. It's not really one for this forum. Thank you for it anyway. It's
:54:51. > :54:53.about bearing responsibility and who do you think bears responsibility? I
:54:54. > :54:57.think the parties that were in Government, I think the DUP and Sinn
:54:58. > :55:01.Fein have created a mess. It's really on you guys to sort out this
:55:02. > :55:06.mess, the mess you created is impacting all of us horribly. As
:55:07. > :55:11.been mentioned before, the health service, the education, are all
:55:12. > :55:16.suffering. It's up to to you to sort it out. On that point, I am going to
:55:17. > :55:19.tell you that I am being told on the doors by the electorate I am
:55:20. > :55:23.visiting and knocking doors across a wide range, not to go back into the
:55:24. > :55:25.Executive until it's sorted out, rights, equality and integrity at
:55:26. > :55:28.the heart of Government. That's a clear message I am getting on the
:55:29. > :55:33.doorsteps. APPLAUSE. But you are not knocking
:55:34. > :55:37.on unionist doors. Unionists will have different views, I go along a
:55:38. > :55:42.row of houses... What do you say to them? I say I am a Sinn Fein
:55:43. > :55:48.candidate seeking your vote. When they say that to you... In terms of?
:55:49. > :55:51.When they say don't go in, what do you say? We will be back in
:55:52. > :55:54.negotiations and seeking rights on equality and integrity at the heart
:55:55. > :55:57.of Government, that's the mandate we got at the last election, if we get
:55:58. > :56:01.the same mandate we will continue to see that. They're not saying what
:56:02. > :56:05.about my hospital appointment and kids' schooling? They're not saying
:56:06. > :56:08.that? I am telling you now the message received loud and clear on
:56:09. > :56:13.the doorsteps is don't go back until it's sorted out. What message are
:56:14. > :56:16.you getting Jeffrey Donaldson? You are right people wanted mess sorted
:56:17. > :56:20.but the only way you do that is being in Government, then you have
:56:21. > :56:24.the power to sort out the mess. You are the only ones who can put
:56:25. > :56:27.yourselves back in Government. We are not, we rely on other parties,
:56:28. > :56:32.it is power-sharing. Actually you don't. I find the irony of ironies,
:56:33. > :56:34.we have Sinn Fein here tonight saying we don't want a Tory
:56:35. > :56:39.Government, we are against a Tory Government. And they're prepared to
:56:40. > :56:43.hand over the reins of power in Northern Ireland to that same Tory
:56:44. > :56:45.Government because believe me if we don't get Stormont running, directs
:56:46. > :56:48.rule from Westminster and the Tory Government is what you are facing
:56:49. > :56:52.and you are responsible for handing that power back to them. It's your
:56:53. > :56:55.responsibility? I think the DUP and Sinn Fein both have already handed
:56:56. > :56:59.back power to Westminster. It was called welfare reform. What we can
:57:00. > :57:03.do is sort our problems out. We have already said this, I don't actually
:57:04. > :57:08.understand, Jeffrey, why the DUP, who believe in the United Kingdom,
:57:09. > :57:10.are afraid to see marriage equality, for example. It's already in
:57:11. > :57:13.everywhere else on these Islands. Why are you afraid to see a
:57:14. > :57:16.languages act? We have one in Scotland, we have one in Wales.
:57:17. > :57:19.There is one in the south. What is the problem with it? Why don't you
:57:20. > :57:23.embrace that as British diversity, however you want to do it and accept
:57:24. > :57:27.that we need to move things forward. We can no longer get stuck with all
:57:28. > :57:32.of these things happening. People are concerned about health and
:57:33. > :57:39.education. Are you afraid of those things? Noel, the place to discuss
:57:40. > :57:44.these is at Stormont, the problem is we don't have a Stormont at the
:57:45. > :57:48.moment. There are a lot of things I could ask you, are you afraid of the
:57:49. > :57:52.British flag I am proud of because you keep taking it down, are you
:57:53. > :57:57.afraid of my British identity, because you keep diminishing it? Why
:57:58. > :58:01.culturally are you trying trying to deny me and the people I
:58:02. > :58:03.represent... We have to end the programme on those mutual
:58:04. > :58:06.accusations. Thank you very much. That's where we must draw the
:58:07. > :58:10.Northern Ireland leaders' debate to a close. You will find a full list
:58:11. > :58:18.of candidates where you live on our news website.
:58:19. > :58:22.Thank you to our guests. To our audience. And of course to you at
:58:23. > :58:23.home for watching. From the BBC Northern Ireland leaders' debate,
:58:24. > :58:33.good night.