06/07/2011

0:00:19 > 0:00:23Good morning and welcome to the programme. We've got a Parrott in

0:00:23 > 0:00:26the Assembly. Don't worry, it's nothing to be worried about.

0:00:26 > 0:00:30The political term may be drawing to a close but there's plenty going

0:00:30 > 0:00:33on here in Cardiff Bay and in Westminster. On today's programme:

0:00:33 > 0:00:36We'll be at Prime Minister's Questions as calls intensify for a

0:00:36 > 0:00:39public inquiry into the allegations of phone hacking by News of the

0:00:39 > 0:00:43World journalists. And as Eluned Parrott is expected

0:00:43 > 0:00:51to join the Liberal Democrat group, will AMs allow Aled Roberts to take

0:00:51 > 0:00:55his seat in the Assembly? As the First Minister meets the

0:00:55 > 0:01:02Chancellor to talk money, I will be asking what the Government means by

0:01:02 > 0:01:05As usual we joined by two AMs here on the sofa - the former culture

0:01:05 > 0:01:15minister and Plaid Cymru AM, Alun Ffred Jones, and Peter Black from

0:01:15 > 0:01:15

0:01:15 > 0:01:20the Liberal Democrats. Good morning. You will be proposing the motion

0:01:20 > 0:01:25this afternoon to have Aled Roberts reinstated. Kenya just set out for

0:01:25 > 0:01:31us now how you think the life of the land is -- can you just set

0:01:31 > 0:01:37out? He was sworn in -- Eluned Parrott

0:01:37 > 0:01:44was signed in 15 minutes ago. It is difficult to know how it will pan

0:01:44 > 0:01:49out. It is a quiet sigh a judicial process. People need to vote on the

0:01:49 > 0:01:55basis of the evidence and AMs will be listening to the debate and

0:01:55 > 0:02:02looking at the report by eight Gerard ally us. -- by Gerard Elias.

0:02:02 > 0:02:05My view is that we have a very strong case for Aled Roberts. It

0:02:05 > 0:02:11was good in terms of setting out why there are exceptional

0:02:11 > 0:02:15circumstances, he was misled by the advice he received and we point out

0:02:15 > 0:02:20that in those circumstances, it would be right to reinstate him.

0:02:20 > 0:02:28That is all very well to say that but some AMs I have spoken to say

0:02:28 > 0:02:34that they probably won't support Aled Roberts.

0:02:34 > 0:02:38Party politics is creeping in. That is a matter for them. Party

0:02:38 > 0:02:42politics should not be involved. It is like a licensing application and

0:02:42 > 0:02:47people need to vote on the basis of the evidence in front of them. I

0:02:47 > 0:02:52would hope that the Assembly Members would do that. Listen to

0:02:52 > 0:02:54the arguments and vote accordingly. It is not appropriate that partisan

0:02:54 > 0:02:59politics take a place in this decision.

0:02:59 > 0:03:04We will ask Alun Ffred Jones. You will have a vote, will you tell us

0:03:05 > 0:03:10how it will be cast? If you read the Gerard Elias report,

0:03:10 > 0:03:19it points fairly strongly in one direction. I must admit that you

0:03:19 > 0:03:23mentioned earlier that this is a queasy judicial process. Planning

0:03:23 > 0:03:33was done on the basis of the facts, we would have very different

0:03:33 > 0:03:33

0:03:33 > 0:03:39results. To be fair, the Liberals have a strong history of voting the

0:03:39 > 0:03:43conventions at a local level. Not in my authority!

0:03:43 > 0:03:48You will vote to have Aled Roberts reinstated?

0:03:48 > 0:03:51I will be taking strong note of the Gerard Elias report and personally

0:03:51 > 0:03:58I think this should have been sorted out early on. I think,

0:03:58 > 0:04:04basically, this is a technical breach and it was not meant, as

0:04:04 > 0:04:10Gerard Elias points out, it was not meant to benefit anybody. I think

0:04:10 > 0:04:14commonsense should have prevailed earlier on in this process.

0:04:14 > 0:04:18Other colleagues of yours will obviously have to vote in favour of

0:04:18 > 0:04:22Aled Roberts is heat -- if he is to be reinstated. What are your

0:04:22 > 0:04:29colleagues in Plaid Cymru say in? It is a freak road.

0:04:29 > 0:04:33You must have spoken about it certainly.

0:04:33 > 0:04:38I have heard that some are in favour and one or two will will

0:04:38 > 0:04:44abstain or vote against. As it stands, we are around two

0:04:45 > 0:04:50hours before. If you were to put your house on it?

0:04:50 > 0:04:55I am not a betting man. I will do my best. I have a speech written

0:04:55 > 0:04:59out and will put my facts in front of the Assembly. I will respond to

0:04:59 > 0:05:04anybody and we will do our best to convince people to vote the right

0:05:04 > 0:05:10way. His Aled Roberts in the Assembly?

0:05:11 > 0:05:16No, he is in Wrexham. I have consulted him on some facts of the

0:05:16 > 0:05:22case, writing my speech. The defence is based on the use of

0:05:22 > 0:05:25the Welsh language and the weight you attach to that, whether the

0:05:25 > 0:05:28inclination provided in Welsh was correct.

0:05:28 > 0:05:34Does that have a bearing on your decision?

0:05:34 > 0:05:40Certainly, it is an interesting one. If people believe that is not

0:05:40 > 0:05:46relevant, it calls into question the evidence provided by Gerard

0:05:46 > 0:05:55Elias but also, I suppose, it does question the validity of the use of

0:05:55 > 0:05:59Welsh in document. It is a tricky one anyway.

0:05:59 > 0:06:04Any body dealing with a public body should be able to do so in the

0:06:04 > 0:06:07language of their choice and have information provided with equal

0:06:07 > 0:06:12status and correct information in both languages. That is the

0:06:12 > 0:06:19principle of the defence. Peter Black mentioned that Aled

0:06:19 > 0:06:22Roberts will be keeping a close eye. He can do that through BBC

0:06:22 > 0:06:26Democracy Live coverage. Well we've just discussed the main

0:06:26 > 0:06:31event in the Senedd today - let's speak to Mark Hannaby in the Oriel

0:06:31 > 0:06:35about the undercard. I don't know if the Am's would

0:06:35 > 0:06:40accept it as the undercard. We will have questions this afternoon to

0:06:40 > 0:06:43ministers, in this case, to the health minister, Lesley Griffiths.

0:06:44 > 0:06:47Then there were questions to the Counsel General. The new chief

0:06:47 > 0:06:52legal officer for the Assembly. It will be interesting to be

0:06:52 > 0:06:59introduced to him for our audience. After that, a couple of debates

0:06:59 > 0:07:04nominated by the Conservatives. One on their "big society" idea.

0:07:04 > 0:07:08Calling really on the Welsh government to recognise that there

0:07:08 > 0:07:12is the society and the wider public as two separate things and both

0:07:12 > 0:07:15have an important role to play. Following that, there will be

0:07:15 > 0:07:19another Conservative debate, looking to secure the future of

0:07:19 > 0:07:23family farms and to make sure communities have input into their

0:07:23 > 0:07:28own economic future. After that, Plaid Cymru have a debate. They

0:07:28 > 0:07:32would like to see the Welsh government lobby more effectively,

0:07:32 > 0:07:36persuading the UK government to devolve power over a large scale

0:07:36 > 0:07:41energy projects, such as the big wind farms in mid-Wales. Devolve

0:07:41 > 0:07:46power over those subjects to the National Assembly. Beyond all that,

0:07:46 > 0:07:50we have the big issue on whether Aled Roberts will be reinstated as

0:07:50 > 0:07:56an Assembly Member for North Wales. As your guests have indicated, it

0:07:56 > 0:08:00is supposed to be a semi judicial process. The report yesterday does

0:08:00 > 0:08:04point in the direction of exonerating Aled Roberts from blame.

0:08:04 > 0:08:08He consolidated the Welsh language advice from the electoral

0:08:08 > 0:08:12commission and it was flawed. That seems to be accepted by Gerard

0:08:12 > 0:08:17Elias. Will he be re- admitted? It is not as straightforward as that.

0:08:17 > 0:08:23This is politics. It is not always about justice. It will be

0:08:23 > 0:08:27interesting to see this afternoon whether the advice from the report

0:08:27 > 0:08:32proves the quintessential thing which determines the issue or

0:08:32 > 0:08:37whether political considerations and self interest comes into play.

0:08:37 > 0:08:39We will find out later. Thank you for the time being. And you can

0:08:40 > 0:08:46find out even more on what's happening in the National Assembly

0:08:46 > 0:08:48on BBC Wales's Democracy Live Let's go to Westminster now where

0:08:48 > 0:08:58our parliamentary correspondent David Cornock is laden with

0:08:58 > 0:09:00

0:09:00 > 0:09:05information for us. Morning, David. Hello. It is difficult to ignore

0:09:06 > 0:09:09the News of the world hacking story. MPs have a chance to debate the

0:09:09 > 0:09:12latest developments today. They have.

0:09:12 > 0:09:17Before that, Prime Minister's questions. I would be surprised if

0:09:17 > 0:09:22the whole issue did not come up in that half hour. Labour keen to put

0:09:22 > 0:09:26pressure on David Cameron in this because, of course, his former

0:09:26 > 0:09:31director of communications, Andy Coulson, was editor of the News of

0:09:31 > 0:09:37the world at the time some illegal activity went on. Then we will hear

0:09:37 > 0:09:41from David Cameron on his recent visit to Afghanistan. Then we do

0:09:41 > 0:09:47get that three-hour debate. An unusual debate forced by a

0:09:47 > 0:09:51backbencher. The Speaker has agreed to that request. It is not often

0:09:51 > 0:09:55that the parliamentary agenda changes that swiftly. MPs will not

0:09:55 > 0:09:59be deciding anything today, they will only have the power to vote on

0:09:59 > 0:10:05whether they consider the need for a public inquiry into the scandal

0:10:05 > 0:10:09of phone hacking. The government so far resisting but hinting that

0:10:09 > 0:10:12these -- that there could be an inquiry. That could take three

0:10:12 > 0:10:15hours and that is the main business today.

0:10:15 > 0:10:19That will be the main business in the chamber.

0:10:19 > 0:10:23Carwyn Jones is in Westminster today. He will see George Osborne.

0:10:23 > 0:10:26I hear the Chancellor will be in listening mode. What does that

0:10:26 > 0:10:30mean? It would be interesting if he

0:10:30 > 0:10:34wasn't in listening mode! It wouldn't be a very good meeting.

0:10:34 > 0:10:40Yes, if he was doing puzzles in the corner!

0:10:40 > 0:10:46The Treasury is keen to suggest that George Osborne wants to listen

0:10:46 > 0:10:50to Carwyn Jones's arguments for a change in the way Wales is funded,

0:10:50 > 0:10:54chiefly through the Barnett formula. We are familiar with that on this

0:10:54 > 0:10:59programme. Before the election, George Osborne

0:10:59 > 0:11:06did except there was a case for changing the Barnett formula and it

0:11:06 > 0:11:10was unfair to Wales and to Fairford took -- to fare for Scotland.

0:11:10 > 0:11:15Carwyn Jones will speak to George Osborne about that. This is really

0:11:15 > 0:11:19the prelude to what we can expect, possibly as soon as next week, when

0:11:19 > 0:11:23David Cameron visits the Assembly, and that is the setting up of a

0:11:23 > 0:11:30commission to look at the way Wales is funded from the UK government

0:11:30 > 0:11:34and the Treasury here. The UK government keen to introduce more

0:11:34 > 0:11:39elements of accountability, it is not just about the money in terms

0:11:39 > 0:11:44of where it comes from. We will have a chat with our guests

0:11:44 > 0:11:48on the sofa surely. I see that Labour MPs have voted to scrap the

0:11:48 > 0:11:53system of elections to the Shadow Cabinet, good news for Peter Hain?

0:11:53 > 0:11:58Peter Hain did not get election last year when they held what were,

0:11:58 > 0:12:02and are now, the last shadow cabinet elections. Good news for Ed

0:12:02 > 0:12:07Miliband, in the sense that that he gets more authority over his top

0:12:07 > 0:12:15team. When the Shadow Cabinet is elected, it is hard for him to sack

0:12:15 > 0:12:20somebody who has steps out of line. He will have complete authority

0:12:20 > 0:12:24over the Shadow Cabinet. Of course, he still has the delicate political

0:12:24 > 0:12:31balancing act of making sure that enough people who are doubtful

0:12:31 > 0:12:36about his leadership are inside, rather than the alternative.

0:12:36 > 0:12:40Thank you for the time being. We will catch you before we hear from

0:12:40 > 0:12:48the Prime Minister later on. We heard from David about Carwyn

0:12:48 > 0:12:52Jones's meeting with the Chancellor today.

0:12:53 > 0:12:58I am joined by the labour am for Cardiff West to discuss this whole

0:12:58 > 0:13:03issue of funding. What is wrong with the way Wales is funded?

0:13:03 > 0:13:10We are funded through the Barnett formula. An ancient device which

0:13:10 > 0:13:14Barnett himself as said needs reforming. Gerry Holtham, a

0:13:14 > 0:13:19distinguished economist and scientist, is looking at the way

0:13:19 > 0:13:23the Barnett formula operates. He and his team went about it in an

0:13:23 > 0:13:27interesting way. They looked to see what Wales would get if we were

0:13:27 > 0:13:33treated in the same way as English regions were being treated by the

0:13:33 > 0:13:36UK government and his conclusion was that Wales is short changed by

0:13:36 > 0:13:40about �300 million or so every year at the moment. That position is

0:13:40 > 0:13:44likely to get worse rather than better, unless something is done to

0:13:44 > 0:13:50prevent that erosion. So there is a push to change that.

0:13:50 > 0:13:53There is a fair amount of consensus in the Assembly. It is not the only

0:13:53 > 0:13:57thing the First Minister wants. He also wants borrowing powers for

0:13:57 > 0:14:02Wales? The Assembly lacks those powers at the moment?

0:14:02 > 0:14:05It does. We are and like Northern Ireland and Scotland in that way

0:14:05 > 0:14:11and we are end like local government. Any council in Wales

0:14:11 > 0:14:15can borrow money. The First Minister will make the point that

0:14:15 > 0:14:18unless the Assembly has borrowing powers as well, we will be unfairly

0:14:18 > 0:14:24treated in comparison with other devolved administrations and this

0:14:24 > 0:14:29will mean that very important things in Wales, infrastructure in

0:14:29 > 0:14:33health and transport and so on, won't be able to happened.

0:14:33 > 0:14:36That was the argument that it was particularly necessary at a time of

0:14:36 > 0:14:43public sector cutbacks? Wales has been particularly badly

0:14:43 > 0:14:47affected by cuts and especially so in the capital investment. We have

0:14:47 > 0:14:52a reduction in capital funding. That means that we are very much in

0:14:52 > 0:14:56need of an extra boost in capital. Other organisations are able to

0:14:56 > 0:15:02have it, it is not right that Wales is being denied that capacity.

0:15:02 > 0:15:07There is a full list of tax is that the minister wants to devolve. He

0:15:07 > 0:15:13once stamp duty, land tax, the air passenger duty, altogether it would

0:15:13 > 0:15:16raise 200 million per year. Would he doesn't want his income tax.

0:15:16 > 0:15:20What I am wondering is how we would be able to repeat our borrowings

0:15:20 > 0:15:25without an income provided by income tax?

0:15:25 > 0:15:29You answered the question in the list you read out. If Wales did

0:15:29 > 0:15:36have an incomes dream of around �200 million, from those taxes

0:15:36 > 0:15:40which are easily identified and paid only in Wales, income tax is

0:15:40 > 0:15:45extremely hard to administer. Who do you capture by it? People who

0:15:45 > 0:15:49live in Wales but work in England? How do you sort it out? Extremely

0:15:49 > 0:15:54difficult. The list you read out are easier to identify and collect

0:15:54 > 0:15:58and if you had those as an income stream, you would be able to use

0:15:58 > 0:16:04that to service any borrowing for capital purposes. Equally, you

0:16:04 > 0:16:07could decide, as many places do, to use the revenue you all have -- to

0:16:07 > 0:16:12reduce the revenue you have already got.

0:16:12 > 0:16:20Thank you. Back to the studio. Before we hear from Mr Osborne, we

0:16:20 > 0:16:23will hear from our guests on the sofa. Alun Ffred Jones there was a

0:16:23 > 0:16:28cross party motion yesterday, giving Carwyn Jones the support of

0:16:28 > 0:16:32the Assembly to sort out the funding formula for the Assembly.

0:16:32 > 0:16:36Hardly a Neville Chamberlain moment. What does it mean in practice?

0:16:36 > 0:16:41I don't know but he is going first six weeks after Alex Salmond has

0:16:41 > 0:16:47been there and got what he wanted and is laughing all the way back to

0:16:47 > 0:16:52the Bank of Scotland. To be fair, he goes there with the support of

0:16:52 > 0:16:59the Assembly, yes. The Labour Party have been all over the shop with

0:16:59 > 0:17:02this issue and everybody now, Gerry Holtham, as the man who has

0:17:02 > 0:17:07delivered the evidence. Gerry Holtham would not have started his

0:17:07 > 0:17:14work if it wasn't for pies can be insisting that there was a

0:17:14 > 0:17:18commission set up to look at Wales -- had come rain.

0:17:18 > 0:17:27We are where we are now. We are where we are because of

0:17:27 > 0:17:31Plaid Cymru. We are now here and Carwyn Jones is there to plead his

0:17:31 > 0:17:37case with George Osborne that if this process had started earlier,

0:17:37 > 0:17:40we would be in a stronger position, as is Scotland. We need to look at

0:17:40 > 0:17:45it not only in terms of fixing the Barnett formula, which the Labour

0:17:45 > 0:17:52Party and the Tories have defended, but also to look at borrowing

0:17:52 > 0:17:57powers. They will become increasingly important over the

0:17:57 > 0:18:00next four years as we lose money, especially for infrastructure and

0:18:00 > 0:18:06capital project. Peter, Mark Drakeford said that

0:18:06 > 0:18:10Wales had been hit harder than other places. The coalition

0:18:10 > 0:18:16government disagrees, saying that Wales has come off quite lightly --

0:18:16 > 0:18:19quite lightly. Even so, Alun Ffred Jones says that Carwyn Jones has to

0:18:19 > 0:18:24plead with the Chancellor. Not a good starting point?

0:18:24 > 0:18:31In revenue terms, Wales is better off than most English departments

0:18:31 > 0:18:34and the plan set up by George Osborne. That is in terms of the

0:18:34 > 0:18:39previous Labour Chancellor, if they had stayed in government. In

0:18:39 > 0:18:43capital terms, Labour would have kept a harder and faster.

0:18:43 > 0:18:48We know all this. What will Carwyn Jones get from the Chancellor?

0:18:48 > 0:18:53I am hoping he will get assurances on the Barnett formula, saying we

0:18:53 > 0:18:58can't fall below a certain level of funding. There is consensus on that

0:18:58 > 0:19:03issue. It won't cost the Treasury any money for the first two years.

0:19:03 > 0:19:07We will have a chat before Prime Minister's questions but now it is

0:19:07 > 0:19:10time to speak to our audience. Have you got a view on any of the

0:19:10 > 0:19:13stories we're covering today? If you'd like to send us your comments

0:19:13 > 0:19:23about that issue or any of the other issues raised in the

0:19:23 > 0:19:28

0:19:28 > 0:19:32programme send us a Tweet to MPs are holding an emergency debate

0:19:32 > 0:19:36into the News of the world phone hacking scandal. It has emerged

0:19:36 > 0:19:40that the relatives of those killed in the 7/7 attacks may have had

0:19:40 > 0:19:45their messages listened to. Our correspondent has been speaking to

0:19:45 > 0:19:49Alun Michael. We are here in Westminster. MPs

0:19:49 > 0:19:54preparing for the debate on phone hacking. We are joined by the

0:19:54 > 0:19:59Labour MP, and in Michael. The police are already investigating

0:19:59 > 0:20:03these phone hacking allegations. There are two big questions. One is

0:20:03 > 0:20:08the way the journalists were clearly involved in something that

0:20:08 > 0:20:13was systematic. We have all felt this was there but it is now that

0:20:13 > 0:20:18the dam has burst and the facts are coming out hand over fist. On the

0:20:18 > 0:20:21other hand, there is the way the police undertook investigations. On

0:20:21 > 0:20:27the Home Affairs Select Committee, we were not content we were getting

0:20:27 > 0:20:31to the bottom of this matter, so we kept the inquiry open. We have had

0:20:31 > 0:20:36police representatives back a couple of times and personally I

0:20:36 > 0:20:38think there is a need for an investigation to be called in by

0:20:38 > 0:20:42the Independent Police Complaints Commission, to do a proper police

0:20:42 > 0:20:48investigation into the way the Metropolitan Police handled the

0:20:48 > 0:20:51issue, especially given that it is now clear there were fact they had

0:20:51 > 0:20:58in 2006 which are only now coming out into the public domain and

0:20:58 > 0:21:02being investigated. The fresh investigation was started under

0:21:02 > 0:21:06pressure from Parliament. The call from Labour is for a

0:21:06 > 0:21:10public inquiry into this. It sounds like you believe the problem is

0:21:10 > 0:21:15wider than it News International? The call is for a judicial inquiry.

0:21:15 > 0:21:19It has to be open and in public. Personally, I would think that an

0:21:19 > 0:21:22inquiry that is specifically designed for this, in the way the

0:21:23 > 0:21:27dealt with the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, for instance, is the way

0:21:27 > 0:21:32to go. It needs to get into the facts fast and avoid bureaucracy

0:21:32 > 0:21:37involved in a standard public inquiry. As I say, I think it is a

0:21:37 > 0:21:41separate question from what happens within British journalism, is the

0:21:41 > 0:21:48law completely disregarded on a systemic basis? Does this go wider

0:21:48 > 0:21:52than the News of the world? On the other hand, there is the

0:21:52 > 0:21:56investigation of activities by the police, was information used and

0:21:56 > 0:21:59did they undertake a vigorous investigation, or where -- or was

0:22:00 > 0:22:04there too much closeness between police and journalists, when we

0:22:04 > 0:22:14hear about allegations of payments being made. All of that needs to be

0:22:14 > 0:22:16

0:22:16 > 0:22:23inquired into and I think there are Do we need to think about the role

0:22:23 > 0:22:27of the PCC? I think there'll is untenable. It is an effective

0:22:27 > 0:22:31organisation. The know-nothing very much will happen. There is still

0:22:31 > 0:22:36the tension which we have not resolved in the UK of how you have

0:22:36 > 0:22:41a free press, how you drive a journalistic standards which the

0:22:41 > 0:22:45best journalist want to do and how you avoid everything being tried to

0:22:45 > 0:22:50the lowest-common-denominator which is what has happened as a result of

0:22:50 > 0:22:58the news of the World. The damage extends beyond those directly

0:22:58 > 0:23:04involved. As a former journalist, we were concerned to improve

0:23:04 > 0:23:10standards and drive quality up and not have a push down by economic

0:23:10 > 0:23:13considerations by newspaper owners. I think that this will give more

0:23:13 > 0:23:17power to good journalists been demanding high standards within the

0:23:17 > 0:23:23profession and I hope that any inquiry will go strengths to their

0:23:23 > 0:23:28power to do so. Has the time, now have a statutory regulation of the

0:23:28 > 0:23:32media industry? Statutory regulation is probably necessary as

0:23:32 > 0:23:36an underpinning for something that is independent. I think with the

0:23:36 > 0:23:38press and the media, it is important that the inquiries are

0:23:38 > 0:23:44independent. We have managed to achieve that very well with the

0:23:44 > 0:23:50police now have. They have none of the problem that previous bodies

0:23:50 > 0:23:54dead. It is seen as independent and tough and willing to take long-term

0:23:54 > 0:23:59inquiries were necessary. We need a proper independent investigative

0:23:59 > 0:24:02body for the media which has that the authority but still is

0:24:02 > 0:24:08independent of Government. Those are the sorts of considerations I

0:24:08 > 0:24:12think that we need to give some real attention to now.

0:24:12 > 0:24:16That was Alan Michaels talking to our reporter. Later today, David

0:24:16 > 0:24:19Cameron will announce to MPs that he has called for a further modest

0:24:19 > 0:24:22for both goals from Afghanistan. The Prime Minister spent the

0:24:22 > 0:24:25earlier part of the Reagan Afghanistan when he urged the

0:24:25 > 0:24:29Taliban to lay down their arms enjoy the political process. He is

0:24:29 > 0:24:34sticking to the timetable of ending the UK's involvement in major

0:24:34 > 0:24:38combat operations and 2014. Our correspondent John Stephenson has

0:24:38 > 0:24:44been talking to the former Pontypridd MP Kim Howells about the

0:24:45 > 0:24:52Afghan conflict. There is not a week goes by that

0:24:52 > 0:24:56David Cameron praise is troops in Afghanistan. As a former foreign

0:24:56 > 0:25:02office Minister where would you put that in terms of the situation in

0:25:02 > 0:25:06that country? We are in a very poor position. Despite everything,

0:25:06 > 0:25:10despite a lot of people dying, despite huge amounts of money being

0:25:10 > 0:25:14spent and that, despite the fact that the Americans especially have

0:25:14 > 0:25:20sacrificed an enormous amount, I do not think that Afghanistan is much

0:25:20 > 0:25:24further forward than it was say one year after the Taliban had been

0:25:24 > 0:25:28kicked out and Al-Qaeda with them. I do not think much progress has

0:25:28 > 0:25:33been made. A lot of money has been spent and I hope that I am wrong,

0:25:33 > 0:25:36but I feel very pessimistic about Afghanistan. You see a lot of money

0:25:36 > 0:25:46has been spent. That is on the military side. And the civilian

0:25:46 > 0:25:49

0:25:49 > 0:25:53side. D think like the Vietnam war, there was willing the hearts and

0:25:53 > 0:25:57minds side. There was a lot of work done. Every time I went to

0:25:57 > 0:26:04Afghanistan, I went to visit projects there. What it was very

0:26:04 > 0:26:11difficult to sustain that effort of civilian reconstruction. The

0:26:11 > 0:26:16Taliban very clever fighters, or a local warlord who was hostile to

0:26:16 > 0:26:20NATO, they knew how to disrupt that work. They knew how to send out

0:26:20 > 0:26:25warnings to people that they should have nothing to do with this. The

0:26:25 > 0:26:32new themselves that if the West was successful, in helping to rebuild

0:26:32 > 0:26:37those communities, to build new canals and new roads and new Wells,

0:26:37 > 0:26:41that they the Taliban would lose the hearts and minds of the wrong

0:26:41 > 0:26:47people. And so they did everything that they could to sabotage a war.

0:26:47 > 0:26:51The implication there that it is a game of just hold your nerve, there

0:26:51 > 0:26:57will come a time when the airlines has gone. It will be back in her

0:26:58 > 0:27:02mot -- normal again. Is that we you're saying? In 2008, I warned

0:27:02 > 0:27:07that this was not going to come right. That we had been there now

0:27:07 > 0:27:12for no longer than the Second World War had lasted and we were not

0:27:13 > 0:27:20making any progress. The most important thing that we were laying

0:27:20 > 0:27:25down the lines of very brave young, British soldiers for a regime that

0:27:25 > 0:27:32was corrupt. And that corruption, that endemic corruption, that

0:27:32 > 0:27:36tribal society that is never going to change, I am afraid was

0:27:36 > 0:27:40something that scared me to death. It seemed to me that we were never

0:27:40 > 0:27:45going to change Afghanistan. And if we could not change it, what was

0:27:45 > 0:27:48the point of being there? The point of being there in the first place

0:27:48 > 0:27:53was to defeat Al-Qaeda and drive them out of Afghanistan and drive

0:27:53 > 0:27:56out the Taliban and sustain them. We did that. We then tried to

0:27:56 > 0:28:00changing it into Surrey are something. The implication that

0:28:00 > 0:28:06that history should have told us not have got involved in the first

0:28:06 > 0:28:10place. I do not think it was of not getting involved in the first place.

0:28:10 > 0:28:15The British Army had this long involvement with Afghanistan, over

0:28:15 > 0:28:21150 years. They used to have a saying which was picture and bald.

0:28:21 > 0:28:24In other words, if you are going to chase Sunday in Afghanistan, you

0:28:24 > 0:28:28get in there and you take out of them and then you get out of there.

0:28:28 > 0:28:33What you do not do is try and stay in there. That is the lesson we

0:28:33 > 0:28:37never learn. Thank you very much. We have got time for a quick chat

0:28:37 > 0:28:43with her guests before we go to Prime Minister questions. What you

0:28:43 > 0:28:48think is going to dominate today? think news International and the

0:28:48 > 0:28:54terrible goings-on at the News of the World. And heads will roll.

0:28:54 > 0:29:01have to say the Barnett formula. And the phone-tapping scandal.

0:29:01 > 0:29:05have got to vote today. How important is that? It is quite

0:29:05 > 0:29:08important. It will show the strength in the house of Commons.

0:29:08 > 0:29:15There were some strong feelings among the public about the way they

0:29:15 > 0:29:19have behaved in tapping the family of victims of crime. Something has

0:29:19 > 0:29:25to be done once this police set investigation is out of the way to

0:29:25 > 0:29:35tackle this issue. -- police investigation. I've been told that

0:29:35 > 0:29:36

0:29:36 > 0:29:46the family of Millie dialler were shocked. This particular instance

0:29:46 > 0:29:47

0:29:47 > 0:29:52and examples is beyond the pale. It does show the lack of empathy that

0:29:52 > 0:29:58the people in some of these newspapers had for ordinary people.

0:29:58 > 0:30:03It was just the story and the profits. They were above the law

0:30:03 > 0:30:08and it reflects badly. It raises questions about news International

0:30:08 > 0:30:16and their influence and domination and their influence on politicians

0:30:16 > 0:30:24of all parties because they need them to support them. There is no

0:30:24 > 0:30:28direct correlation there between these goings-on. It puts into focus.

0:30:28 > 0:30:32Although they were depresses the worst of it, there is evidence that

0:30:32 > 0:30:36other newspapers have been involved as well. But not quite as bad as

0:30:36 > 0:30:41this. This is absolutely shocking and the public are very much

0:30:41 > 0:30:44shocked by that and we need some action. It seems that some

0:30:44 > 0:30:49companies have responded as well saying they would withdraw

0:30:49 > 0:30:57advertising. That is quite a big move. Yes, it is. But they will get

0:30:57 > 0:31:04over it. Something has got to change and what will happen is that

0:31:04 > 0:31:11some day will be taken out and shot. They will be given a lot of money.

0:31:11 > 0:31:21I may well hand over now. Thank you Mr Speaker. I am sure the

0:31:21 > 0:31:24

0:31:24 > 0:31:33whole house would like to join me to pay tribute to the bravery and

0:31:33 > 0:31:37dedication of this soldier who has with his family and friends at this

0:31:37 > 0:31:42sad time. We pay tribute to him and all like him who serve our country

0:31:42 > 0:31:44so magnificently in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Mr Speaker, I had

0:31:44 > 0:31:54meetings with ministerial colleagues and in addition to my

0:31:54 > 0:31:55

0:31:55 > 0:31:58duties I will have further meetings today. Could I agree with the Prime

0:31:58 > 0:32:04Minister as the father who has a son who is serving in Afghanistan,

0:32:04 > 0:32:12it is a dread of thing when you get that knock-on the door that he has

0:32:12 > 0:32:21been lost in action. Our sympathies with the soldier's family and

0:32:21 > 0:32:28friends. Yesterday we gave �10 billion to the bail-out of the

0:32:28 > 0:32:36bank's in Greece. We gave �7 billion to the bail-out in Ireland.

0:32:36 > 0:32:42We gave 100 billion, this is the British taxpayer, for the quality

0:32:42 > 0:32:48of the banks in this country for insurance purposes and other

0:32:48 > 0:32:57purposes. Why does the Prime Minister not get on his bike and go

0:32:57 > 0:33:06down to his friends in the city and sat if you speculators -- sacking a

0:33:06 > 0:33:10few speculators? First of all, it is this Government that is as

0:33:10 > 0:33:14pretty Bank levy on the banks so they are paying more end every year

0:33:14 > 0:33:21than they have paid in the bank on his tax under the last Government.

0:33:21 > 0:33:25In terms agrees, we kept -- I kept us out of the European bail-out. In

0:33:25 > 0:33:29Ireland, that economy is so close an integrated with ours, it is

0:33:29 > 0:33:33right we give them support. That I think is the right approach. But

0:33:33 > 0:33:42this Government is being tough in making sure that banks pay their

0:33:42 > 0:33:45fair share. Severe droughts, conflict and food prices have

0:33:45 > 0:33:50created desperate hunger and threatening the lives of millions.

0:33:50 > 0:33:58With aid agencies shorter funds, what is the Government doing to

0:33:58 > 0:34:02help? He is being extremely effective in helping this appalling

0:34:02 > 0:34:05crisis were 10 million people are in threat of starvation. It

0:34:05 > 0:34:10demonstrates that we are right to maintain and increase our spending

0:34:10 > 0:34:16in this difficult area. Difficult as the arguments sometimes are, in

0:34:16 > 0:34:22spite of those we have -- the difficulties we have here, it is

0:34:22 > 0:34:29nothing compared to those people there. Mr Speaker, can I journey

0:34:29 > 0:34:33Prime Minister in paying tribute to Highlander Scott McLaren. He was a

0:34:33 > 0:34:36young man who was serving our country and died in the most

0:34:36 > 0:34:41horrific circumstances. I am sure the ethos of the whole house are

0:34:41 > 0:34:51with his club family and friends. The whole country has been appalled

0:34:51 > 0:34:53

0:34:53 > 0:34:57by the disclosures of phone hacking. The 77 -- the many victims, that

0:34:57 > 0:35:01anyone could hack into her phone and listen to her family's frantic

0:35:02 > 0:35:07messages and delete them, giving false talk to those parents, is

0:35:07 > 0:35:11immoral and a disgrace. Given the gravity of what has occurred, will

0:35:11 > 0:35:15be Prime Minister's support the calls for a full independent public

0:35:15 > 0:35:22inquiry to take place as soon as practical into the culture and

0:35:22 > 0:35:27practices of British newspapers? Let me be clear. Yes, we do need to

0:35:27 > 0:35:32have an inquiry, possibly inquiries, into what has happened. We are no

0:35:32 > 0:35:36longer talking about politicians and celebrities. We are talking

0:35:37 > 0:35:40about murder victims, potential terrorist victims, having their

0:35:40 > 0:35:43phones tapped into. It is disgusting at what has taken place

0:35:43 > 0:35:49and I think everyone in this country will be revolted by what

0:35:49 > 0:35:54they have heard and seen on their television screens. Let me make a

0:35:54 > 0:35:58couple of bites, first of all, there is a major police

0:35:58 > 0:36:01investigation underway. It is one of the biggest police

0:36:01 > 0:36:06investigations currently underway in our country and crucial. I hope

0:36:06 > 0:36:10you will listen. It does not involve police and former --

0:36:10 > 0:36:15officers involved in the region -- original investigation. I do think

0:36:15 > 0:36:19it is important that we have inquiries that are public,

0:36:19 > 0:36:23inquiries that her independent and that have public confidence. It

0:36:23 > 0:36:26seems to be that there are two vital issues to look into. The

0:36:26 > 0:36:30first is the original police inquiry and why that did not get to

0:36:30 > 0:36:35autumn of what has happened. And the second is about the behaviour

0:36:35 > 0:36:38of individual people and media organisations and as the Right

0:36:38 > 0:36:42Honourable SEN -- gentle said, taking a wider look into media

0:36:42 > 0:36:47practices and ethics in this country. As he says, we cannot

0:36:47 > 0:36:50start all those inquiries immediately because you must not

0:36:50 > 0:36:54jeopardise the police investigation. It may be possible to start some of

0:36:54 > 0:37:04that work earlier. I am very happy to discuss this with them, with

0:37:04 > 0:37:06

0:37:06 > 0:37:12other party leaders, with the Attorney-General and the house.

0:37:12 > 0:37:16am encouraged that he does recognise the need for a full

0:37:16 > 0:37:20public inquiry into what happened. He is right to say that this can

0:37:20 > 0:37:26only be fully completed after the police investigation has taken its

0:37:26 > 0:37:31course. However, as he said in his answer, that may take some years.

0:37:31 > 0:37:36It is possible, and I think he implied, for the process to start

0:37:36 > 0:37:39now. Can I make some suggestions. He should appointee senior figure,

0:37:39 > 0:37:44potentially a judge, to lead this inquiry. Make clear it will have

0:37:44 > 0:37:48the power to call witnesses under oath and establish clear terms of

0:37:48 > 0:37:53reference covering a number of key issues. The culture and practices

0:37:53 > 0:37:57of the industry, the nature of regulation which is absolutely

0:37:57 > 0:38:03crucial, and also the relationship between the police and the media. I

0:38:03 > 0:38:12wonder whether he can just respond and those points. I want to respond

0:38:12 > 0:38:19cost of -- positively. Of the two issues I mission. -- I mentioned. I

0:38:19 > 0:38:28do not think it is possible to start a investigation until the

0:38:28 > 0:38:32police investigation is finished. There is a issue of jeopardising

0:38:32 > 0:38:36what is already been started. Weakest major stardom other

0:38:36 > 0:38:46elements. I do not want us to rush this decision. I want us to get

0:38:46 > 0:38:50

0:38:50 > 0:38:54this right. Having discussed this with other party leaders, the

0:38:54 > 0:38:58Attorney-General and others. He is implying this could start now. It

0:38:58 > 0:39:04is important it does so. Just because we cannot do everything,

0:39:04 > 0:39:14does not mean we cannot do anything. It is very important we do so. He

0:39:14 > 0:39:15

0:39:15 > 0:39:18did one year ago today,. The gives an inquiry. Let me go one to ask

0:39:18 > 0:39:28him about what happens in the meantime pending this public

0:39:28 > 0:39:32

0:39:32 > 0:39:36inquiry? We have consistently said that the BSkyB bid should be... He

0:39:36 > 0:39:42must realise the public will react with disbelief if next week, the

0:39:42 > 0:39:47decision is taken to go ahead with this deal at the time when news

0:39:47 > 0:39:53International is subject to a major criminal investigation. And we do

0:39:53 > 0:39:57not yet know who charges will be laid against. Does he agree that

0:39:57 > 0:40:02the BSkyB bid should now be referred to the Competition

0:40:02 > 0:40:07Commission to provide a breathing space that is required? Let me as a

0:40:07 > 0:40:11his point about give Sun. This is a fair point. We establish the

0:40:11 > 0:40:15inquiry but it has not been able to make much progress until a criminal

0:40:15 > 0:40:20proceeding have been brought to an end. There is a good reason for

0:40:20 > 0:40:23this. He did not want to jeopardise a police operation which would do

0:40:23 > 0:40:27so if you start questioning witnesses through public inquiry

0:40:27 > 0:40:32process at the same time as they are being questioned through a

0:40:32 > 0:40:37police process. I want us to get on with this issue and the faster that

0:40:37 > 0:40:42we can set up other elements of an inquiry, the happier I will be. On

0:40:42 > 0:40:48the issue of BSkyB, what we have done here is follow the correct

0:40:48 > 0:40:54legal processes. That is what the Government has to do. The Secretary

0:40:54 > 0:40:58of State is in a semi judicial role. He has to follow that. I know the

0:40:58 > 0:41:00leader of the Labour Party said yesterday that the issue of

0:41:00 > 0:41:04competition and plurality is a separate issue from the very

0:41:04 > 0:41:09important issue of we are discussing today. What I would say

0:41:09 > 0:41:15is that these processes must be followed properly. It is Ofcom who

0:41:15 > 0:41:25have the duty to make sure they have a fit and proper person in

0:41:25 > 0:41:29place. Mr Speaker, that answer was out of touch of millions of people.

0:41:29 > 0:41:33The public will not accept the idea that with the scandal engulfing the

0:41:33 > 0:41:39News of the World, and news International, that the Government

0:41:39 > 0:41:43should in the coming days be making a decision outside of the normal

0:41:43 > 0:41:49processes and ordered to take control of one of the media

0:41:49 > 0:41:52organisations and the country. -- in order for him to take control. I

0:41:52 > 0:41:56urge him to think again and sent this decision to the proper

0:41:56 > 0:41:59authorities which is the Competition Commission. This would

0:41:59 > 0:42:05provide breathing space for legitimacy and for the proper

0:42:05 > 0:42:09decisions to be made. I would say that the decision-making has been

0:42:09 > 0:42:14through the proper processes. It is right that the Government acts

0:42:14 > 0:42:17legally in every way and that is what it has done. One is an issue

0:42:17 > 0:42:21about morality and ethics and a police investigation that needs to

0:42:21 > 0:42:26be carried out the proper way. But they have total independence to do

0:42:26 > 0:42:30that. The other is the issue about plurality and commit -- competition.

0:42:30 > 0:42:39Those are the words used yesterday. And 24 hours he has done a U-turn

0:42:39 > 0:42:49in order to look good in the Commons. This is not the time for

0:42:49 > 0:42:49

0:42:49 > 0:42:54technicalities are low blows. We have said consistently throughout

0:42:54 > 0:42:59this process that this bid should be referred to the Competition

0:42:59 > 0:43:04Commission. This is the right way forward. And the Prime Minister

0:43:04 > 0:43:09should be speaking for the country on this issue of because this is

0:43:09 > 0:43:12what people want him to do. I hope you will go off and think again

0:43:12 > 0:43:15because it is in the interest of the media industry and the British

0:43:15 > 0:43:19public that this is properly referred to the Competition

0:43:19 > 0:43:27Commission and the way that all other beds with dealt with. What we

0:43:27 > 0:43:30also know, as well as needing a public inquiry is that these were

0:43:30 > 0:43:36not the actions of a rogue individual or re wrote reporter but

0:43:36 > 0:43:40part of a wider systematic pattern of abuses. The public see a major

0:43:40 > 0:43:46news organisation in this country where no one appears prepared to

0:43:46 > 0:43:50take a spell of -- responsibility for what happened. Nobody is this

0:43:50 > 0:44:00but -- and denying that the phone was packed. And the did not deny

0:44:00 > 0:44:01

0:44:01 > 0:44:04that it was on the current watch of an editor. Will he join me in

0:44:04 > 0:44:10saying she should take responsibility and consider her

0:44:10 > 0:44:16position? Let me deal with this issue of technicalities. When you

0:44:16 > 0:44:20are dealing with the law, you have to look at the technicalities

0:44:20 > 0:44:23because there is something called due process like you have to follow.

0:44:23 > 0:44:28That is necessary for any Government and I am sure he

0:44:28 > 0:44:32understands that. In terms of news International, everyone there has

0:44:32 > 0:44:37got to ask themselves some searching questions and everyone

0:44:37 > 0:44:41there is subject to what currently has one of the largest police

0:44:41 > 0:44:46investigations underway in this country. What I think is we should

0:44:46 > 0:44:56let the police do their work. If they find people guilty of

0:44:56 > 0:44:56

0:44:56 > 0:44:59wrongdoing, they should have no Mr Speaker, I do not know from that

0:44:59 > 0:45:03answer whether he says that the chief Executive at News

0:45:03 > 0:45:08International should stand down or not. I am clear she should take

0:45:08 > 0:45:11responsibility and stand down. These events show a systematic set

0:45:11 > 0:45:15of abuses which demonstrate the use of power without responsibility in

0:45:16 > 0:45:20our country is in the interests of our democracy that these issues are

0:45:20 > 0:45:24sorted out. With the biggest press scandal in modern times getting

0:45:24 > 0:45:30worse by the day, I am afraid he has not shown the leadership

0:45:30 > 0:45:33necessary today. He has not shown the leadership necessary on News

0:45:33 > 0:45:40International. Is it not the case that if the public is to have

0:45:40 > 0:45:47confidence in him, he has got to accept that he made a catastrophic

0:45:47 > 0:45:51error of judgement by bringing Andy Coulson into the heart of his

0:45:51 > 0:45:59Downing Street machine. Former News of the World editor, of

0:45:59 > 0:46:02course. Order. I apologise for interrupting

0:46:02 > 0:46:06the prime minister. The Prime Minister should not have to shout

0:46:06 > 0:46:11to be heard and neither should be leader of the opposition. It is

0:46:11 > 0:46:14disorderly. I take full responsibility for

0:46:14 > 0:46:17everyone I employee and everyone I appoint and I take full

0:46:17 > 0:46:22responsibility for everything my government does. What this

0:46:22 > 0:46:26Government is doing is making sure that the public, and I feel so

0:46:26 > 0:46:30appalled by what is happening, murder victims and terrorist

0:46:30 > 0:46:33victims having their phones tapped is disgraceful. That is why it is

0:46:33 > 0:46:37important there is a full police investigation with all of the

0:46:37 > 0:46:42powers they need. That is why it is important we have those inquiries

0:46:42 > 0:46:45to get to the bottom of what went wrong. That is why we also need to

0:46:45 > 0:46:49enquire how we improve the ethics and morals of the press in this

0:46:49 > 0:46:59country and make sure they improve the future. That is what this

0:46:59 > 0:47:02

0:47:02 > 0:47:07government is doing. Year 9 pupils at Lamberhurst school

0:47:07 > 0:47:12in my constituency have joined hundreds of other people to join a

0:47:12 > 0:47:15school's campaign. Will the Prime Minister at his support to this

0:47:16 > 0:47:18cause and reminders that good education transforms the children's

0:47:18 > 0:47:22lives and their chant -- and their life chances?

0:47:22 > 0:47:29I am delighted to welcome the campaign that she mentioned and her

0:47:29 > 0:47:33personal support for it. Across all world, there are 39 million girls

0:47:33 > 0:47:38out of school. Even if they are in school, the gender gap is appalling.

0:47:38 > 0:47:45What we are doing in the UK eat with our aid Budget is securing

0:47:45 > 0:47:52schooling for 11 million children by a 2015. That is more than the

0:47:52 > 0:47:55children in the UK at 2.5 % of the cost. We must reduce inequality.

0:47:55 > 0:48:01Can the Prime Minister explain whether he thinks that the cost of

0:48:01 > 0:48:06his NHS reforms centralised even further with the revolution that a

0:48:06 > 0:48:12super quango in the NHS will be created, might be partly

0:48:12 > 0:48:15responsible for the funding squeeze in Harrow, putting at risk services

0:48:15 > 0:48:20in my constituency. What we have actually seen since

0:48:20 > 0:48:25this government has taken office is more than 2000 more doctors but

0:48:25 > 0:48:294,000 fewer managers. We are cutting bureaucracy by one-third. I

0:48:29 > 0:48:34know they don't like to hear it but if we followed their plans and cut

0:48:34 > 0:48:38NHS but spending, you would see the number of doctors and nurses going

0:48:38 > 0:48:42Dharm. This morning, we see the numbers for the number of

0:48:42 > 0:48:46diagnostic tests in the UK covering up, that is because of investment

0:48:46 > 0:48:55by this government. The Prime Minister will be aware of

0:48:55 > 0:49:01news this morning that something has been downgraded to junk status.

0:49:01 > 0:49:07You cannot put things down to bad discussions and the only plan B is

0:49:07 > 0:49:11bankruptcy. You are correct, Plan B stands for

0:49:11 > 0:49:15bankruptcy. That is what happens if governments don't get a grip of

0:49:15 > 0:49:18debt or deficit. That is what we are doing. The party opposite held

0:49:18 > 0:49:23learnt nothing. Does the Prime Minister agree with

0:49:23 > 0:49:26me that the maximum sentence for the offensive dangerous -- for the

0:49:26 > 0:49:31offence of dangerous driving does not properly reflect the harm it

0:49:31 > 0:49:36does to victims, sometimes victims are left paralysed and brain-

0:49:36 > 0:49:40damaged. Care will the Prime Minister's support me in increasing

0:49:40 > 0:49:44the maximum sentence to seven years. I knew of the Honourable Gentleman

0:49:44 > 0:49:48speaks with personal knowledge of this, not just because of a

0:49:48 > 0:49:53constituency case he wrote to me about but also because of his work

0:49:53 > 0:49:57as a barrister. I do believe there is a problem when you have a highly

0:49:57 > 0:50:02sentence for causing death by dangerous driving but only this

0:50:02 > 0:50:06two-year sentence in the case that he brought to me comedy --,

0:50:06 > 0:50:12somebody was damaged for life. We are looking at this issue and hope

0:50:12 > 0:50:16to make progress. Would the Prime Minister agree with

0:50:16 > 0:50:23me that the only did bail-out from the opposition of 10 billion is not

0:50:23 > 0:50:27that. We won't be a global player if we are not in the IMF. Does the

0:50:27 > 0:50:33opposition need reminding that in the 1970s, the IMF bailed out their

0:50:33 > 0:50:37government? The second part was disorderly.

0:50:37 > 0:50:41I absolutely agree with what my Honourable Friend said. It was

0:50:41 > 0:50:45remarkable yesterday that the Labour Party has put itself in the

0:50:45 > 0:50:49position of a posing our position in the IMF. Britain is a serious

0:50:49 > 0:50:56global economy and we should take responsibility for global issues

0:50:56 > 0:50:59through the IMF. Does the Prime Minister agreed the

0:50:59 > 0:51:05details of all the weapons and explosives be commissioned in the

0:51:06 > 0:51:10Northern Ireland district should be made public as promised. Will he

0:51:10 > 0:51:16agree to have negotiations with the Irish government to move forward to

0:51:16 > 0:51:20the Americans to see it happens? The point is that the independent

0:51:20 > 0:51:23commission on decommissioning did not provide us with an inventory.

0:51:24 > 0:51:28They were an independent body and this was a decision for them to

0:51:28 > 0:51:34take. They stated, we would not wish inadvertently to discourage

0:51:34 > 0:51:37future decommissioning events by groups that are active today, or to

0:51:37 > 0:51:43deter groups for handing over any arms that subsequently come to

0:51:43 > 0:51:47light. This is difficult and we are having to do difficult things in

0:51:47 > 0:51:54order to bring conflict to an end. That is what the Independent

0:51:54 > 0:51:59commissioning report was doing. The issue about delaying an inquiry,

0:51:59 > 0:52:01the fact that the public have little confidence in the

0:52:01 > 0:52:06Metropolitan Police in investigations concerning News

0:52:06 > 0:52:11International are concerning. On 22nd April, I asked whether we

0:52:11 > 0:52:13would have a full judicial inquiry that looks at the link between News

0:52:13 > 0:52:17International and the Metropolitan Police?

0:52:17 > 0:52:21Clearly, this is an important issue. My Honourable Friend the Home

0:52:21 > 0:52:24Secretary has discussed it with the Commissioner of the Metropolitan

0:52:24 > 0:52:31Police this morning and they want to continue with the investigation

0:52:31 > 0:52:34that is under way. Even before you get to the point about independent

0:52:34 > 0:52:40and public inquiries, what the public needed to go is that the

0:52:40 > 0:52:44police are going to go about their job properly. They do need to know

0:52:44 > 0:52:48that this is an investigation completely separate from the

0:52:48 > 0:52:55previous investigation. As it stands today, it is one of the

0:52:55 > 0:52:58largest police investigations going on anywhere in the country.

0:52:58 > 0:53:02Victims of knife crime in London have increased by more than 8% over

0:53:02 > 0:53:05the last three months. On the streets of London, we have children

0:53:05 > 0:53:11carrying knives and other children afraid of the journey to and from

0:53:11 > 0:53:18school. Last Friday, a 16-year-old constituent of mine was stabbed to

0:53:18 > 0:53:21death. Two children have been arrested. What will the prime

0:53:21 > 0:53:26minister do to ensure the mayor of London gets to grips with this

0:53:26 > 0:53:30problem? The case she raises is an

0:53:30 > 0:53:35absolutely tragic one and there are too many victims of knife crime,

0:53:35 > 0:53:39particularly among young people, particularly in London. We are

0:53:39 > 0:53:43creating a new offence with a mandatory prison sentence, to send

0:53:43 > 0:53:47a clear message to those who carry knives. The offence will apply to

0:53:47 > 0:53:52those carrying knives who threaten those in a public place. It will

0:53:52 > 0:53:58send a clear message that if you threaten anyone, you go to jail.

0:53:58 > 0:54:01Will my honourable friend agree with me that those who pay back

0:54:01 > 0:54:04early their student loans are doing the right thing and should be

0:54:04 > 0:54:11encouraged? If so, how is that consistent with the government's

0:54:11 > 0:54:13policy, which is apparently want to discourage paying back and to

0:54:13 > 0:54:18penalise them for early repayment of student loans?

0:54:18 > 0:54:22I would urge my Honourable Friend to look carefully at the detail of

0:54:22 > 0:54:26what we are proposing. We want a progressive system where people who

0:54:26 > 0:54:30earn more pay back more and that is why we have a system where nobody

0:54:30 > 0:54:37pays anything until they are earning 21,000 and you don't pay

0:54:37 > 0:54:40back in for it -- in full interview and 35,000 ball. People who pay

0:54:41 > 0:54:45back around 3,000 a year should not be discouraged because that is the

0:54:45 > 0:54:55right thing to do. In opposition, the Prime Minister

0:54:55 > 0:54:59

0:54:59 > 0:55:09was clear that certain things should be banned. What has changed?

0:55:09 > 0:55:15

0:55:15 > 0:55:19What we have done is we have banned. It is endlessly frustrating that we

0:55:19 > 0:55:28are frustrated by it so many legal requirements. We have to be a

0:55:28 > 0:55:34government under the law. Order. The House will want to hear

0:55:34 > 0:55:38that Mr Robert. Given that the Olympics and the

0:55:38 > 0:55:45diamond jubilee next year, is the prime minister aware that

0:55:45 > 0:55:48immigration officers are concerned that travel in its current forms

0:55:48 > 0:55:52allows terrorists into the country without their passports being

0:55:52 > 0:55:57checked. When you close this loophole immediately?

0:55:57 > 0:56:00By Honourable Friend makes an important point. Passport free

0:56:00 > 0:56:05travel between the UK, the Crown dependencies and the Republic of

0:56:05 > 0:56:10Ireland, have been in place for many years. It offers many benefits.

0:56:10 > 0:56:17These rates can be open to abuse and we are determined to restore

0:56:17 > 0:56:24this. The border agency is looking into this. We do not want to

0:56:24 > 0:56:31disadvantage those who can take advantage it up till now.

0:56:31 > 0:56:37The communities Secretary and the D W P Secretary, should employ

0:56:37 > 0:56:44British workers. Will the Prime Minister stop the DW peak of

0:56:44 > 0:56:48shoring existing jobs in North Tyneside?

0:56:48 > 0:56:54I will look closely at the case that she makes.

0:56:55 > 0:56:59Order. I want to hear the prime minister's view.

0:56:59 > 0:57:07I want to make sure that welfare reforms are encouraging those

0:57:07 > 0:57:10people who sit on welfare who could work to go out to work. Economic

0:57:10 > 0:57:19growth but 5 million working-age people living on benefits, that is

0:57:19 > 0:57:26not good enough. Would the Prime Minister agree with

0:57:26 > 0:57:36me that rural areas provide an irreplaceable service. Every effort

0:57:36 > 0:57:36

0:57:36 > 0:57:39should be made to keep post offices. The centre in my constituency may

0:57:39 > 0:57:49close. What we want to see is maternity

0:57:49 > 0:58:11

0:58:11 > 0:58:15networks so that mums can make a The company made public for the

0:58:15 > 0:58:19first time that they have been able to establish a new academy for the

0:58:19 > 0:58:24design and manufacture of cars for the next generation of high-speed

0:58:24 > 0:58:30trains for this country and across the world. More jobs and jobs with

0:58:30 > 0:58:34higher skills. He won't have had time to familiar cries himself --

0:58:34 > 0:58:37familiarise himself. Will he give substance to the comment he made in

0:58:37 > 0:58:45my constituency to British manufacturers?

0:58:45 > 0:58:52I will look very carefully at what the Right Honourable Lady has said.

0:58:52 > 0:58:55I want to see more British jobs in manufacturing. In the case of the

0:58:55 > 0:59:00bombarding a train contract, the procurement process was designed

0:59:00 > 0:59:05and initiated by the government of which she was a part. We are bound

0:59:05 > 0:59:09by the criteria that they set out and therefore we need to continue

0:59:09 > 0:59:14with the decision made according to that criteria. Separately car we

0:59:14 > 0:59:17are setting out to ask the question, what more can we do within the

0:59:17 > 0:59:22current rules to make sure we Blues manufacturing in this country, and

0:59:22 > 0:59:27not have situations like this in future?

0:59:27 > 0:59:3212 days ago, a constituent of mine was a victim of a vicious knife

0:59:32 > 0:59:37attack. This last weekend, another 16-year-old young man was also the

0:59:37 > 0:59:43victim of a knife attack. Will my right honourable friend join with

0:59:43 > 0:59:49me in condemning this upsurge in gang Related violence and confirm

0:59:49 > 0:59:53those that carry knives will face a custodial sentence if apprehended?

0:59:54 > 0:59:59As I have just said to the Honourable Lady opposite, it is

0:59:59 > 1:00:04important we set out a clear message about this. There is a new

1:00:04 > 1:00:08offence with a mandatory sentence. That sends out a signal. We should

1:00:08 > 1:00:11be frank with other selves in the country that purely looking at this

1:00:11 > 1:00:15from a criminal justice situation is not the answer. We must ask

1:00:16 > 1:00:19ourselves why so many young children join gangs, why aren't our

1:00:19 > 1:00:26communities doing more to prevent the carrying of knives and that is

1:00:26 > 1:00:29right across government. It is simply not the case, as the

1:00:29 > 1:00:39Prime Minister claimed earlier, that the government has for road

1:00:39 > 1:00:39

1:00:39 > 1:00:42the normal process of the takeover of BSkyB. Why does he think those

1:00:42 > 1:00:46assurances are any more credible than the assurances he was given on

1:00:46 > 1:00:50phone hacking? We have followed the right legal

1:00:50 > 1:00:55processes. If you don't follow the correct legal processes, you will

1:00:55 > 1:01:05be judicially approved and all of the decisions will be struck down

1:01:05 > 1:01:05

1:01:05 > 1:01:09in the courts. You look pretty for a day but useless for a week.

1:01:09 > 1:01:14Order. If the house can overcome its put it -- its collective nerve,

1:01:14 > 1:01:20it will give a hearing to Mr Ian Swales.

1:01:20 > 1:01:25Last Friday, I visited a school in my constituency, which is the 17th

1:01:25 > 1:01:29most deprived primary-school in the country. Will the Prime Minister

1:01:29 > 1:01:33join me in congratulating the school and community and a

1:01:33 > 1:01:38converted area of demolished houses for a school playing field. Will

1:01:38 > 1:01:42the Government continue with its crew build premium policy -- people

1:01:42 > 1:01:46premium policy? I congratulate the Honourable

1:01:46 > 1:01:50Gentleman for the support he is sharing his primary schools. I

1:01:50 > 1:01:54believe that the people premium will pump billions extra into

1:01:54 > 1:01:59education, particularly for the most deprived children, is going to

1:01:59 > 1:02:03make a huge difference to our schools. 13 years they had opposite

1:02:03 > 1:02:08to introduce a premium and we got nothing.

1:02:08 > 1:02:12This policy applies in England alone. The speaker brings an end to

1:02:12 > 1:02:18Question Time there. David Cameron will update MPs on Afghanistan from

1:02:18 > 1:02:21where he has just returned. A question that Ed Miliband asked,

1:02:21 > 1:02:26into the inquiry of phone hacking, David Cameron said there would be

1:02:26 > 1:02:30won but not until after the police inquiry has been at completed. As

1:02:30 > 1:02:35you might expect, that was the big issue. Let us see what they think

1:02:35 > 1:02:40of that in the studio. Obviously, we will reflect on that

1:02:40 > 1:02:42now. Peter Black, while we were watching that then, you were on the

1:02:42 > 1:02:47side of the Prime Minister, agreeing that an inquiry could not

1:02:47 > 1:02:52take place yet, even though Ed Miliband suggested it could.

1:02:52 > 1:02:56The Prime Minister used a nice phrase, look pretty for a day but

1:02:56 > 1:03:03useless for a week. The issue has to be that if the police are to be

1:03:03 > 1:03:07witnesses, those witnesses could give conflicting evidence in front

1:03:07 > 1:03:14of a public inquiry. That has to be out of the way before a public

1:03:14 > 1:03:19inquiry. Would you agree?

1:03:19 > 1:03:23I suppose so. Everybody is taking cover now. This is a big story

1:03:23 > 1:03:29which will create revulsion among normal people and politicians will

1:03:29 > 1:03:34be keen to say they are on the side of local people but politicians in

1:03:34 > 1:03:37major parties will be in partnership with Wales -- with News

1:03:37 > 1:03:41International for a long time. It will be interesting to see whether

1:03:41 > 1:03:49anything changes. Before we heard from the

1:03:49 > 1:03:54politicians, Ed Miliband called on Rebekah Brooks to resign or be

1:03:54 > 1:03:59removed from her post. Even if it does happen, you think that she

1:03:59 > 1:04:05will get cover? She stood up for News International

1:04:05 > 1:04:10and they will reward her, whatever happens. Anyway, these things

1:04:10 > 1:04:14should be the result of police or public inquiries, rather than

1:04:14 > 1:04:21saying who is responsible. She was at the centre of this, as were

1:04:21 > 1:04:26other people. People at a senior level will have to carry the can.

1:04:26 > 1:04:30These are allegations and the moment. Andy Coulson was mentioned.

1:04:30 > 1:04:35You were pre-empting that. He came up halfway through?

1:04:35 > 1:04:40Yes. I suppose Ed Miliband was -- Ed Miliband thought it was right

1:04:40 > 1:04:43that he got the main issues out of the way before he brought it to

1:04:43 > 1:04:49Party politics. It always comes down to that.

1:04:49 > 1:04:53He has a point. It was clear that Andy Coulson had left the newspaper

1:04:53 > 1:04:58because of the phone hacking allegations, and yet the prime

1:04:58 > 1:05:04minister picked him up and employed him. Clearly, the question has to

1:05:04 > 1:05:11be why that happened, when he knew that might be the case.

1:05:11 > 1:05:16He gave a robust defence of his employment of Andy Coulson and said

1:05:16 > 1:05:22that he takes responsibility for whoever he employs. A brave state

1:05:23 > 1:05:29and. A brave and foolish statement.

1:05:29 > 1:05:36It was a lack of judgement anyway. Whatever the in -- whatever the

1:05:36 > 1:05:41involvement was. We need to get to the bottom of this. These are murky

1:05:41 > 1:05:46waters that are swilling around at the moment. Everybody will be

1:05:46 > 1:05:50watching their backs. This is a big story for News International and

1:05:50 > 1:05:54they haven't covered themselves in glory so far. No doubt they will

1:05:54 > 1:06:04pick up their game but Rupert Murdoch will be keeping a close eye

1:06:04 > 1:06:08

1:06:08 > 1:06:16This story has been around for a long time. David Cameron has been

1:06:16 > 1:06:23using words like disgusting. He was covering his own back. As I say,

1:06:23 > 1:06:27senior politicians have been a lining cells was Murdoch and his

1:06:27 > 1:06:32machine for a long time. They also have to be held responsible for

1:06:32 > 1:06:39allowing the situation any sense, his power to develop, and feeling

1:06:39 > 1:06:46that they could do what they like. They were working in partnership

1:06:46 > 1:06:54with powerful people. I do not know how it came to this pass. This

1:06:54 > 1:07:00seems to be beyond imagination that anybody would stoop to this. No

1:07:00 > 1:07:08doubt, there will be inquiries and recommendations and committees.

1:07:08 > 1:07:15knock-on effect could be the merger of BSkyB, or the takeover of BSkyB.

1:07:15 > 1:07:21You have worked with Jeremy Hunt. haven't worked with him. I have met

1:07:21 > 1:07:26him. The Prime Minister was very careful to say, yes these things

1:07:26 > 1:07:34are terrible. Nothing to do with BSkyB. What did she think of that,

1:07:34 > 1:07:38Peter? This issue has there been taken into account. You have to ask

1:07:38 > 1:07:42the question given what has happened around news International,

1:07:42 > 1:07:48whether they are fit and proper persons to have this monopoly in

1:07:48 > 1:07:54Britain. I thought the Prime Minister left his options and we

1:07:54 > 1:08:01will see some developments. For the time being, thank you very much.

1:08:02 > 1:08:04We will hit -- we will hear from campaigners. The UK's independent

1:08:04 > 1:08:07inquiry into stalking and harassment is to begin taking

1:08:07 > 1:08:11evidence tomorrow. The first session will cover cyber stalking

1:08:11 > 1:08:15and look at the work of the National Stalking Helpline. Our

1:08:15 > 1:08:25reporter, Bethan James, has been talking to the senior Welsh

1:08:25 > 1:08:25

1:08:25 > 1:08:34champion who is leading the cross- party investigation. -- Welsh MP.

1:08:34 > 1:08:38A growing concern in this age of social media is cyber stalking. The

1:08:38 > 1:08:43Plaid Cymru MP is heading an inquiry to see how a bigger problem

1:08:43 > 1:08:50it is. Am I right in saying that cyber stalking is not covered by UK

1:08:50 > 1:08:53law? In the area tis but it is so complex that most police officers

1:08:53 > 1:09:00do not understand it. Many prosecutors do not understand it

1:09:00 > 1:09:05and the net result is that the 1997 Protection from harassment Act is

1:09:05 > 1:09:12actually not fit for this purpose. In support of that, I would say

1:09:12 > 1:09:21there is that 53,000 cases per annum are reported. Of those, about

1:09:21 > 1:09:2712% make it to court. And of those, about 2% end up in custodial

1:09:27 > 1:09:32sentence. We need to look at where we are in terms of people using

1:09:32 > 1:09:36cyberspace the in and day out, the various media. I do believe that we

1:09:36 > 1:09:39need to tighten things up and bring in some amendments. I did raise

1:09:39 > 1:09:44this with the Prime Minister during questions some weeks ago when he

1:09:44 > 1:09:50did acknowledge there is a problem. This inquiry is to decide, we know

1:09:50 > 1:09:52there is a problem, and the way forward. Once we are weaned in a

1:09:52 > 1:09:57position that we know the way forward, we will have a meeting

1:09:57 > 1:10:00with the Prime Minister and change the law. You are not as good to

1:10:00 > 1:10:06talk about cyber stopping. What is the purpose of this inquiry in its

1:10:06 > 1:10:12wider scope? The purpose is to protect people who are being

1:10:12 > 1:10:19harassed by the new media. We can all think of other examples, that

1:10:19 > 1:10:23have ended up in homicide. Several of them, three mothers give

1:10:24 > 1:10:29evidence to us. Their daughters had been killed. If we had a better

1:10:29 > 1:10:33framework in place, two if not three of those, their deaths could

1:10:33 > 1:10:40have been avoided. So we need to deal with this and urgently. But we

1:10:40 > 1:10:43need to do a very carefully. We have three evidence sessions ahead.

1:10:43 > 1:10:48Members of all parties getting involved in this, so we need to

1:10:48 > 1:10:55harness this momentum now and, with some reasonable suggestions. Is a -

1:10:55 > 1:10:59- is at a problem to the police? Is a difficult to prove, tried to find

1:10:59 > 1:11:07out who are committing these offences? Part of the problem is

1:11:07 > 1:11:12the anonymity that side per -- the cyber media give people. You are

1:11:12 > 1:11:16able to invade someone's of sea without letting them who know who

1:11:16 > 1:11:21you are. We have to be looking at the service providers, whether we

1:11:21 > 1:11:28need to harness their men as well. And we need to do lots of work on

1:11:28 > 1:11:31this because it is long overdue. As I said, we are starting with the

1:11:32 > 1:11:38academics on Wednesday. We will be speaking with some criminal

1:11:38 > 1:11:43psychologist, people from the Suzy Lamplugh Trust and it we will speak

1:11:43 > 1:11:51with people from the Scottish Parliament who have enacted the law

1:11:51 > 1:11:56there and also to speak with CPS and the police. We want it done and

1:11:56 > 1:12:00proper inquiry. We will then conclude accordingly. We have two

1:12:00 > 1:12:04excellent barristers advising us. They will help us draft anything we

1:12:04 > 1:12:09propose. I am hopeful that in about six and nine months' time, we will

1:12:09 > 1:12:13have some answers to put before Government. Thank you very much.

1:12:13 > 1:12:18The Welsh Government is being urged undertaking a risk assessment into

1:12:18 > 1:12:28the proposals to close or downgrade coastguard stations in Wales. Mark

1:12:28 > 1:12:31

1:12:31 > 1:12:37has more run this. To discuss the whole issue I am

1:12:37 > 1:12:42joined by that to people here. George Watson, you have received a

1:12:42 > 1:12:48petition on this. What are people asking for? They are asking us what

1:12:48 > 1:12:58we can do. They are asking the Welsh Assembly Government to assess

1:12:58 > 1:13:03

1:13:03 > 1:13:08the impact on tourism. I think that this is reasonable as a request. It

1:13:08 > 1:13:12is the first -- I welcome the opportunity to look at this issue.

1:13:13 > 1:13:17I lead the debate here at the Assembly some months ago and I

1:13:17 > 1:13:22really think we need to look at these things seriously. You have

1:13:22 > 1:13:28worked in the field. How detrimental do you think the

1:13:28 > 1:13:32closure of centres would be? think it is very detrimental. The

1:13:32 > 1:13:36Welsh coast has large numbers of tourists over the year. Many of

1:13:36 > 1:13:43them get into difficulties, are not aware of where they are, do not

1:13:43 > 1:13:53know what to do. Having local coastguards with local knowledge

1:13:53 > 1:13:55

1:13:55 > 1:14:01and effective rescue. Milton Haven, is a big tourist destination. It is

1:14:01 > 1:14:08growing. That is correct. Everybody is trying to attract more tourists

1:14:08 > 1:14:12to the area. Their safety is critical. There is a general

1:14:12 > 1:14:20feeling that these proposals to close to maquette of the three

1:14:20 > 1:14:23stations, could affect their safety. Is there clutching at straws? The

1:14:23 > 1:14:28Welsh Assembly Government has made it plain that it disapproves of

1:14:28 > 1:14:33this course of action but it is his been powerless to do much about it.

1:14:33 > 1:14:42Do you think tourism will be an effective way to find the breach in

1:14:42 > 1:14:49that policy? I think anything that helps to allow people to take this

1:14:49 > 1:14:55seriously as good. Anybody who wants to take their holiday using

1:14:55 > 1:14:58their holiday in temperature or a long that coastal line, this is a

1:14:58 > 1:15:06very serious issue. Closing local services and removing local

1:15:06 > 1:15:11knowledge will put lives at risk. But it will also impact on that

1:15:11 > 1:15:15tourist industry. If people do not feel safe in the first place, the

1:15:15 > 1:15:21rest assess themselves and they simply will not turn up. Do you

1:15:21 > 1:15:27agree with that? My receipt tourism diminish and yet there? Quite

1:15:27 > 1:15:32possibly. There is a risk to tourists because of this loss of

1:15:32 > 1:15:36local knowledge or potential loss of local knowledge. There is a

1:15:36 > 1:15:43possibility that the numbers were reduced. But you are in no doubt

1:15:43 > 1:15:49that people will be in more danger? No. There is a further stage about

1:15:49 > 1:15:57to happen. There will be another proposal for a revised proposal

1:15:57 > 1:16:01from the MCA which will take this forward. Back to you.

1:16:01 > 1:16:04The Welsh Government is proposing what it describes as major changes

1:16:04 > 1:16:09to Communities First it - that is the scheme designed to involve

1:16:09 > 1:16:12local people in regenerating deprived areas. The local

1:16:12 > 1:16:15Government Minister Carl Sargeant says the programme will keep its

1:16:15 > 1:16:23community focus but he wants a stronger emphasis on tackling

1:16:23 > 1:16:29poverty and contributing to the wider anti-poverty agenda.

1:16:29 > 1:16:33We all know a was a ten-year programme. We have been given this

1:16:33 > 1:16:38opportunity and time to think about how to develop a new programme for

1:16:38 > 1:16:44the future. This is about enhancing what we have had. Regrow one that

1:16:45 > 1:16:49really. If big changes are necessary, is that an an omission

1:16:50 > 1:16:59that this was not working? Absolutely not. This is about

1:17:00 > 1:17:01

1:17:01 > 1:17:09generating your virginity. This is not changed for change's sake --

1:17:09 > 1:17:12this is about generating originality. We will work with

1:17:12 > 1:17:22partnership agencies to make sure that we get the best for the

1:17:22 > 1:17:24

1:17:24 > 1:17:32communities. Will the new programme make sure that we cannot give us

1:17:32 > 1:17:41failures? I cannot give you Assurance's -- assurances about the

1:17:42 > 1:17:46future. We give it -- we give good advice. We have to enable them to

1:17:46 > 1:17:49develop programmes that are accountable for the public at large

1:17:49 > 1:17:54through Government, through local partnership agencies and we want to

1:17:54 > 1:17:58get the best value for our money in their communities.

1:17:58 > 1:18:04Let's see what our guests think about that. There was a moderate

1:18:04 > 1:18:14head-shaking from you. Enhancing new opportunities. What does he

1:18:14 > 1:18:15

1:18:15 > 1:18:21mean? I listen to him yesterday and I could not work out what he meant.

1:18:21 > 1:18:27Are you surprised that Communities First still exists by name? I have

1:18:27 > 1:18:34seen their operating at a local level. There have been good schemes

1:18:34 > 1:18:39that have worked well. It is difficult to see how it fits in to

1:18:39 > 1:18:42all the other actions. Right at its inception there was a problem

1:18:42 > 1:18:48because they put job-creation as one of the aims. The only jobs are

1:18:48 > 1:18:52created where the jobs created by the scheme itself, as always.

1:18:52 > 1:18:56Therefore, yes, I have nothing against it. It seems that they

1:18:56 > 1:19:03cannot admit that it does not work very well so they are rejigging yet

1:19:03 > 1:19:08saying, it has worked very well but we want to change it. Because it is

1:19:08 > 1:19:15working well Lexmark would you have expected Communities First to still

1:19:15 > 1:19:19be going after what was the damning indictment of a last year? I think

1:19:19 > 1:19:24the proposals he is putting in place now, they will go the wrong

1:19:24 > 1:19:28way. Ideally we have gone to local councils and said, you are

1:19:28 > 1:19:32responsible for economic development in your area. Here is

1:19:32 > 1:19:36the money, you sorted out. The problem with these reforms are

1:19:36 > 1:19:41twofold. First of all he has centralise everything to himself.

1:19:41 > 1:19:45The has this new structure in place where he sits at the top and he

1:19:45 > 1:19:50decides what happens with the money. And secondly, the way they you

1:19:50 > 1:19:54measure the outcomes and what the - - on the money you spend, he put a

1:19:54 > 1:19:58number of indicators to measure that. But none of the monitor the

1:19:58 > 1:20:05expenditure. The problem we have had is that we have not been able

1:20:05 > 1:20:10to assess how effective this is an this will not change it. I suspect

1:20:10 > 1:20:15she were hinting at it, if you do not know if it was working then, it

1:20:15 > 1:20:23probably isn't? It is difficult to measure some of the things it is

1:20:23 > 1:20:28trying to do. Confidence among people, it seems to me in some

1:20:28 > 1:20:37examples it has worked reasonably well. They seem to be at the heart

1:20:37 > 1:20:46of things. But in other places, it seems to remote. People and tried

1:20:46 > 1:20:52to do something. Are there too many projects? Far too many. I have some

1:20:52 > 1:20:56serious reservations. I would have some sympathy of that local of

1:20:56 > 1:21:02authorities could lead economic regeneration, a should be fully

1:21:02 > 1:21:06integrated into their means of working. I think the way he is

1:21:06 > 1:21:11acting in this, it is thus empowering local conveys --

1:21:11 > 1:21:16communities. Glamorgan did not do well in the Twenty20 last night but

1:21:16 > 1:21:25the fuel poverty collision comrade say they're going to "Hit Fuel

1:21:25 > 1:21:32Pverty for 6". -- Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru.

1:21:32 > 1:21:36To discuss the whole issue I am joined by Consumer Focus Wales and

1:21:36 > 1:21:41Mark Fisher would. What is fuel poverty and war how widespread is

1:21:41 > 1:21:47it in Wales. We look at the percentage of people's income being

1:21:47 > 1:21:51spent and tried to heat their homes. In Wales, 18% of all households are

1:21:51 > 1:22:01spending �2 out of every 10 of their income on this. A lot of

1:22:01 > 1:22:02

1:22:02 > 1:22:05those are very -- in very hard to double whammy of people who cannot

1:22:05 > 1:22:08afford the cost of feel, living in homes that are hard to heat. And it

1:22:09 > 1:22:14is something that is going to get hard. Fuel companies are putting

1:22:14 > 1:22:18their prices up when incomes are being squeezed. There is not enough

1:22:18 > 1:22:28money to go round. This winter that we are facing could be really

1:22:28 > 1:22:29

1:22:29 > 1:22:37dangerous? There is always a concern. People could die from debt

1:22:37 > 1:22:43- by the cold. It is a significant programme - a problem. Even the UK

1:22:43 > 1:22:50Government has limited powers were direct influence on fuel prices.

1:22:50 > 1:22:54Across party group will be encouraging the Welsh Government to

1:22:54 > 1:22:59apply and do everything it can in these areas. But it is not just the

1:22:59 > 1:23:09price of fuel. If it was, because we cannot directly directors, we

1:23:09 > 1:23:17would not have this event. It is how we could improve the situations

1:23:17 > 1:23:23are people in fuel poverty. This is hitting - right this is where

1:23:23 > 1:23:28you're project comes and place. want to see you - what we want to

1:23:28 > 1:23:32see clear action plans. We want to see programmes our integrated. You

1:23:32 > 1:23:36may be implementing a new energy efficiency programme in an area but

1:23:36 > 1:23:41at the same time, are you making sure the benefits are being

1:23:41 > 1:23:51maximised. People in social care and health workers have a role in

1:23:51 > 1:23:52

1:23:53 > 1:24:01identifying individuals. A number of practical things that we think

1:24:01 > 1:24:04in Wales can do. That fits in well with that idea of different sectors

1:24:04 > 1:24:08of the public sector working together. With this agenda of local

1:24:08 > 1:24:12authorities working more closely together. There is an opportunity

1:24:12 > 1:24:16any time of change in local Government to make these things are

1:24:17 > 1:24:20reality. We believe we have to get all of the different agencies and

1:24:20 > 1:24:25service to us to focus on the person and on the family because it

1:24:25 > 1:24:29is not just all the people, it is children as well. They have told us

1:24:29 > 1:24:33how it is like to live in a cold house. They are rushing to bring

1:24:33 > 1:24:37their friends around to stay. It is about getting everybody to watch

1:24:37 > 1:24:41out for the warning signs. Is there something we you come across a new

1:24:41 > 1:24:51constituency postbag? Do you discuss this with families who are

1:24:51 > 1:24:53

1:24:53 > 1:24:59Absolutely. People do come for support or information with

1:24:59 > 1:25:06problems they have in consequence of the homes they live in. They can

1:25:06 > 1:25:10be expensive to heat. Some children have respiratory illnesses in

1:25:10 > 1:25:15consequence of the homes they living. Parents are often not in

1:25:15 > 1:25:21work and are suffering illnesses. It has a knock-on effect. Also, we

1:25:21 > 1:25:23also find that people live in social isolation. People may have

1:25:23 > 1:25:27mental health problems or disability issues and they can be

1:25:27 > 1:25:32living in fuel poverty but are not being picked up on the radar

1:25:32 > 1:25:35because they are often living in remote situations or do not have

1:25:35 > 1:25:42family or support around them. We have heard about targeting the

1:25:42 > 1:25:45person and the harps hold -- and the Household, without a qualifying

1:25:45 > 1:25:53measure. A tremendous challenge, obviously.

1:25:53 > 1:26:01Thank you for joining me to discuss A round of applause there for

1:26:01 > 1:26:07everyone. Alun Ffred Jones, while you are on the sofa, I must ask you

1:26:07 > 1:26:16about the plot can be potential leadership race. Have you thought

1:26:16 > 1:26:20of yourself out? I think I have. I want to make

1:26:20 > 1:26:26Wales at a robust place. I hope that I won't be in debate.

1:26:26 > 1:26:30You hope you won't? You think you should be?

1:26:30 > 1:26:33I have ministerial experience and we need as many contestants as

1:26:33 > 1:26:39possible. This afternoon, the Conservatives

1:26:39 > 1:26:42have a debate on the "big society". Your party is involved in that in

1:26:42 > 1:26:46Westminster. Should we have it implemented here? What does it mean

1:26:46 > 1:26:52for us? Exactly. I have always thought the

1:26:52 > 1:26:56big problem of the "big society" is it is so ill defined. The motion

1:26:56 > 1:26:59the Conservatives have tabled is as ill-defined as the concept. In the

1:26:59 > 1:27:02sense that you want to give more people more responsibility and

1:27:02 > 1:27:08power to do things in their own communities.

1:27:08 > 1:27:17That sounds like Communities First! It sounds like the Third Wave.

1:27:17 > 1:27:20The "big society" is not about that. That is one interpretation. Another

1:27:20 > 1:27:25one is getting the voluntary sector to do things the government should

1:27:25 > 1:27:31do. I yes, and then take money away from the voluntary organisations.

1:27:31 > 1:27:38Often they are not voluntary because they pay employees. It is

1:27:38 > 1:27:42very peculiar. I think there is scope to do that in terms of social

1:27:42 > 1:27:50enterprises and so on. I think there is something about local

1:27:51 > 1:27:55people having control over that and a stake in it. Trying to

1:27:55 > 1:28:00encapsulate it into this idea of the "big society", I have no idea.

1:28:00 > 1:28:05Once you try to brand something people do ordinarily, many of these

1:28:05 > 1:28:08people live in places they do not need these structures in affluent

1:28:08 > 1:28:13or well of areas. They do not need the state until they become ill at

1:28:13 > 1:28:19the end of their lives. Not everybody is a Tory. There are

1:28:19 > 1:28:23Tories all over the country. There are. By and large... I

1:28:23 > 1:28:28generalise, but anyway... We will leave it there. Thank you