09/11/2011

:00:21. > :00:26.Good morning and welcome to am.pm. In the words of the Presiding

:00:26. > :00:28.Officer Rosemary Butler, here we go again. We've got a busy programme.

:00:28. > :00:31.We'll be at Prime Minister's Questions as the Home Secretary

:00:31. > :00:35.faces more questions about her part in the relaxing of some passport

:00:35. > :00:38.checks. We'll hear the First Minister's

:00:38. > :00:46.response to criticism over the way the Welsh Government is trying to

:00:46. > :00:50.boost the economic recovery. And with Armistice Day almost upon

:00:50. > :01:00.us, I will be asking what the Welsh government is doing to help on

:01:00. > :01:00.

:01:00. > :01:03.I'm joined throughout the programme by two Assembly members. Plaid

:01:03. > :01:06.Cymru's Alun Ffred Jones and the Aled Roberts for the Welsh Liberal

:01:06. > :01:08.Democrats. Good morning to you both. We'll chat in a moment. Before we

:01:08. > :01:11.do, yesterday's First Minister's Questions got people talking after

:01:11. > :01:15.the Plaid Cymru leader Ieuan Wyn Jones attacked the First Minister's

:01:15. > :01:18.record on the economy. Carwyn Jones' former coalition partner

:01:18. > :01:28.accused him of waiting for the economic crisis to do its worst,

:01:28. > :01:30.

:01:30. > :01:34.Let me remind you, since May, we have not had a single piece of

:01:34. > :01:38.legislation to deal within this chamber. We have had a programme

:01:38. > :01:44.for government that contains no targets and we have had no action

:01:44. > :01:49.on the economy. The only conclusion I can now draw from your failure to

:01:49. > :01:53.ask -- to act is that you have decided to let the economic crisis

:01:53. > :01:56.do its worst and blame the Tories for everything that is responsible.

:01:56. > :02:00.First Minister, did you think our young people deserve better than

:02:00. > :02:03.that? The ground has changed now.

:02:04. > :02:09.Originally it was suggested we haven't announced any capital

:02:09. > :02:15.projects and it has been accepted the projects have been announced.

:02:15. > :02:19.We have done as much as we can to protect the people of Wales. I take

:02:19. > :02:22.no lessons from the party opposite. If they had a wealth of ideas, I

:02:22. > :02:27.would look at them but they did not have them in the manifesto. The

:02:27. > :02:31.Labour Party was accused of producing the longest suicide note

:02:31. > :02:36.in the election and plot can be produced the shortest.

:02:36. > :02:40.What did you think of that exchange? Ieuan Wyn Jones, perhaps

:02:40. > :02:47.his strongest attack on the Government since your party has

:02:47. > :02:51.been back in opposition? Why? Because of the lackadaisical

:02:51. > :02:56.approach this Government is taking to mostly everything. If you ask

:02:56. > :03:01.most AMs, they will say that most Tuesday afternoons and Wednesday

:03:01. > :03:05.after near us, by now, have become pretty inactive. We are dealing

:03:05. > :03:10.with a crisis. It is an international crisis, I grant you

:03:10. > :03:13.that. It is not the fault of the present Labour government that we

:03:14. > :03:18.are in this mess. You are not blaming the

:03:18. > :03:23.Conservatives, are you? Yes, I am. I think their approach

:03:23. > :03:27.is wrong. The fact is the Government in Wales should be doing

:03:28. > :03:32.far more proactive work and the list of projects that have been

:03:32. > :03:40.announced, as Ieuan Wyn Jones said, were announced in March by the One

:03:40. > :03:43.Wales government and since then... You are claiming credit for that?

:03:43. > :03:48.The present Government doesn't seem to be trip pro actively doing

:03:48. > :03:52.anything to try and address the situation, especially when you

:03:52. > :03:58.think about unemployment amongst young people, which is reaching

:03:58. > :04:02.critical levels. I'm not trying to sake they are to blame. The

:04:03. > :04:09.question is, what can we do? One of the things we can do is to try and

:04:09. > :04:15.bring forward capital projects that will in turn provide work for Welsh

:04:15. > :04:21.companies and in turn provide some opportunities for people to gain

:04:21. > :04:28.employment and training. This is quite logical and common sense. If

:04:29. > :04:33.you look at the whole front report, this is what they have been saying.

:04:33. > :04:37.The present Labour Government seems to be very reluctant to use it. One

:04:37. > :04:40.of the reasons could be too late the blame on the Government in

:04:40. > :04:45.London. We will hear from Carwyn Jones

:04:45. > :04:51.later. He has been speaking at the summit this morning.

:04:51. > :04:57.Aled Roberts, your party is in government at UK level. It comes in

:04:57. > :05:01.with some stick. What do you think of Ieuan Wyn Jones's

:05:01. > :05:04.interpretation? I think I would agree with Alun

:05:04. > :05:09.Ffred Jones. There is a frustration amongst Assembly Members regarding

:05:09. > :05:19.the lack of activity by the Assembly Government. The people of

:05:19. > :05:19.

:05:19. > :05:22.Wales are saying, six months in, it is not good enough. The Welsh

:05:22. > :05:26.government is responsible for economic development in Wales and

:05:26. > :05:29.yet we are seeing little or no evidence of activity. Furthermore,

:05:29. > :05:33.perhaps some of the announcements made by previous government with

:05:33. > :05:36.regard to the economic renewal policy, there appears to be

:05:36. > :05:42.complete lack of action as far as that is concerned. It is

:05:42. > :05:46.frustration. The feeling, as Alun Ffred Jones said, for us as

:05:46. > :05:49.Assembly Members, is that we are spending lots of time attending

:05:49. > :05:54.sessions with little or no programme as far as the Government

:05:54. > :05:58.is concerned. We need joined-up thinking between

:05:58. > :06:06.the departments. There is delaying going on and others are saying, we

:06:06. > :06:09.are looking at the project. Where is the unified action?

:06:09. > :06:13.One of your parties, the Conservatives, are possibly going

:06:13. > :06:16.to have to support the Government to get their programme through. The

:06:16. > :06:21.relationship between your party leader and the First Minister is

:06:21. > :06:27.quite combative at the moment. Do you think Plaid come recant support

:06:27. > :06:32.this Budget? There are ongoing discussions. The

:06:32. > :06:42.Labour Party are poor at opening up and probably discussing. They feel

:06:42. > :06:42.

:06:42. > :06:47.that if they can put eight pet project on, but they will put it in.

:06:47. > :06:51.You had a price a few years ago. We need more discussion before we

:06:51. > :06:54.come to an agreement. Very briefly, Aled Roberts, can you

:06:54. > :06:57.see your party supporting the Government on this Budget?

:06:57. > :07:01.There needs to be a different of mood as far as the Government is

:07:01. > :07:04.concerned. They are very much approaching the whole Budget

:07:04. > :07:09.situation as though they had a majority within the Assembly. The

:07:09. > :07:14.reality is they need to discuss the draft Budget. There has been little

:07:14. > :07:19.discussion beforehand. It is a Labour Budget. They need to be

:07:19. > :07:23.serious about the discussions but they are ongoing and all opposition

:07:23. > :07:30.parties are holding meetings. Thank you for now. We will be back

:07:30. > :07:34.with you later. Good morning. Let us go through

:07:34. > :07:39.what is happening this afternoon. Questions to ministers. Today it is

:07:39. > :07:43.the turn of the health minister, Lesley Griffiths, and Carl Sargeant.

:07:43. > :07:47.Moving on to the debates. The Conservatives are very much pushing

:07:47. > :07:51.issues around the armed forces today, appropriately, with

:07:51. > :07:57.Armistice Day around the corner. They are asking the Government to

:07:57. > :08:02.do a few things. They want to see the anniversary of the First World

:08:02. > :08:05.War recognise formally when it rolls down in 2014. They are noting

:08:05. > :08:09.that some 40,000 Welsh servicemen lost their lives in that conflict

:08:09. > :08:13.and they feel it would be appropriate to mark that sacrifice.

:08:13. > :08:17.They would like to see more done for more recent servicemen and

:08:17. > :08:21.women, particularly those who suffer with fever rather it -- the

:08:21. > :08:24.variety of conditions associated with post-traumatic stress disorder.

:08:24. > :08:28.The difficulties people have won the return to civilian life with

:08:28. > :08:33.the horrible things they have seen in their careers. They would also

:08:33. > :08:39.like to see every person in the armed forces, either at the moment

:08:39. > :08:43.or be former serviceman or woman, issued with a card to access

:08:43. > :08:46.services more efficiently. Moving on from that, there is a second

:08:46. > :08:52.Conservative debate on the rural economy. They would like to see red

:08:52. > :08:55.tape cut to enable small businesses and others to flourish and young

:08:55. > :09:02.people to stay in the communities they have grown up in, if they wish

:09:02. > :09:06.to do so. Plaid Cymru have a debate, as you have already discussed, with

:09:06. > :09:10.Alun Ffred Jones, about what they are calling the economic crisis and

:09:10. > :09:14.what they see as the Government's inactivity or failure to react

:09:14. > :09:19.effectively to that crisis. They are claiming a lot more needs to be

:09:19. > :09:24.done in the chamber this afternoon. Moving on to the short debate, a

:09:24. > :09:30.very interesting one today from Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood. She is

:09:30. > :09:33.looking at the issue of food banks. These are stores of food built up

:09:33. > :09:39.by volunteers in communities to help people who simply can't afford

:09:39. > :09:41.to eat. That might seem almost unbelievable in the 21st century in

:09:41. > :09:46.a country with the welfare state but apparently more and more people

:09:46. > :09:49.can't afford to do best. Lots of communities are taking it upon

:09:49. > :09:54.themselves to help out. Leanne Wood is raising the issue this afternoon

:09:54. > :09:57.and I spoke to her about it yesterday. You will hear about that

:09:57. > :10:00.later on. Thank you.

:10:00. > :10:09.You can get more information about what's happening in the National

:10:09. > :10:14.Assembly on BBC Wales's Democracy Live online coverage. The address

:10:14. > :10:17.is on screen. We've dealt with the Assembly - now

:10:17. > :10:22.let's find out what's happening at Westminster today with our

:10:22. > :10:25.correspondent, Tomos Livingstone. The pressure is mounting on the

:10:25. > :10:31.Home Secretary to explain her decision to relax some border

:10:31. > :10:36.checks. The UK border force chief, Brodie Clark, resigned yesterday.

:10:36. > :10:46.What about Theresa May? I think you're missing those Liam

:10:46. > :10:50.

:10:50. > :10:55.Fox punt. It will be clearer by the end of the day., this has to do

:10:55. > :11:00.with the queues at airports when they come into the country.

:11:00. > :11:04.Passport checks word suspended at busy times to allow those queues to

:11:04. > :11:09.clear. The Home Office admits it doesn't know whether any criminals

:11:09. > :11:12.or terrorist sups it -- suspects came into the country. The

:11:12. > :11:19.government says this is the fault of Brodie Clark, an official. He

:11:19. > :11:23.has been suspended. He has delivered a finger pointing of his

:11:24. > :11:29.own, saying there was pressure from ministers to reduce queues at busy

:11:29. > :11:34.times. He has resigned. He will sue the Home Office for constructive

:11:34. > :11:39.dismissal. At the technical end, a lot of this has to do with whether

:11:39. > :11:47.someone as Mr Clarke as a civil servant had written in a level of

:11:47. > :11:54.discretion, the authority to make these sort of decisions and whether

:11:55. > :11:58.the rules should be relaxed. At the political level, this is quite a

:11:58. > :12:03.dangerous time for Theresa May and David Cameron. They have just lost

:12:03. > :12:07.Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary. It should come up at Prime Minister's

:12:07. > :12:12.questions later on. They will be looking for any change of tone from

:12:12. > :12:15.David Cameron, whether he will deviate from the usual line of

:12:15. > :12:19.argument that Theresa May has his full support. There will be a

:12:19. > :12:21.Labour debate on border controls after that. Even if the government

:12:21. > :12:25.goes through Prime Minister's questions unscathed, the pressure

:12:25. > :12:28.will mount during the day at Westminster.

:12:28. > :12:31.Talking of Prime Minister's questions, the economy is bound to

:12:31. > :12:36.dominate again. The latest growth predictions from the CBI have been

:12:36. > :12:41.downgraded. That is right. The employers'

:12:41. > :12:45.organisation was predicting the UK economy would grow at 1.3 % and has

:12:46. > :12:54.changed his mind and has downgraded that forecast to anything between

:12:54. > :12:57.0.9 % and 1.2 %. That would be pretty bad news for the Government

:12:57. > :13:04.but the silver lining in the CBI statement is firstly that most

:13:04. > :13:08.other organisations have already downgraded their forecasts.

:13:08. > :13:12.Secondly, the CBI has said it believes the government cuts

:13:12. > :13:17.programme is vital that it carries on to free the economy up to grow

:13:17. > :13:20.in the future. A bit of bad news for George Osborne, the Chancellor,

:13:20. > :13:24.in that he is dependent on the economy growing strongly of the

:13:24. > :13:29.next year and the following years. Just to bring in this tax revenues

:13:29. > :13:34.so he can reduce the Budget deficit. One thing Mr Osborne would be

:13:34. > :13:40.giving his encouraging buying Italian government bonds. The

:13:40. > :13:44.situation in Italy getting worse by the day. The charges to service its

:13:44. > :13:49.debt are going up. Silvio Berlusconi has said he will stand

:13:49. > :13:53.down. It looks as though of the needs to be some sort of bail-out

:13:53. > :13:59.for the Italian government. The problem is the size of the you

:13:59. > :14:03.bail-out, which was agreed last week in Cannes, is too small. Some

:14:03. > :14:09.difficult questions for David Cameron as to where he stands on

:14:09. > :14:12.the need to bail out an economy the size of Italy. I wonder whether one

:14:12. > :14:19.or two mischievous Euro-sceptic MPs will raise those issues with David

:14:19. > :14:22.Cameron later. We will see you later for Prime

:14:22. > :14:26.Minister's questions. Now I ask you every week and not

:14:26. > :14:30.everyone takes me up on the offer, but why don't you get in touch with

:14:30. > :14:34.us. You can tweet us. Send a message to @walespolitics, or you

:14:34. > :14:39.can write to us using a pen and paper. The address is BBC Wales,

:14:39. > :14:43.Llandaff, Cardiff, CF5 2YQ. The MP for Rhondda, Chris Bryant,

:14:43. > :14:47.has got a very busy day today. Not only is he a key part of Labour's

:14:47. > :14:50.team in dealing with the on going row over the Border Agency, he's

:14:50. > :14:56.also got a short debate on the arts. He's been speaking to our reporter,

:14:56. > :15:00.Bethan James. Protecting Britain's borders is

:15:00. > :15:05.what is occupying the minds of MPs today and there is mounting

:15:05. > :15:12.pressure on the Home Secretary. Chris Bryant, we have heard that

:15:12. > :15:16.the head of the UK borders Agency has resigned. Do you think that the

:15:17. > :15:20.Home Secretary can survive? I think it is too early to tell.

:15:20. > :15:24.There are lots of questions for the Home Secretary. Why was she

:15:24. > :15:27.experimenting with border controls a year before the Olympics, for

:15:27. > :15:33.instance, which is going to be the biggest security challenge this

:15:33. > :15:36.country is having to beat. What did she side of? That is why we have to

:15:36. > :15:40.publish the document that went across her desk over this so we can

:15:40. > :15:44.judge for ourselves rather than listen to her version of events and

:15:44. > :15:49.we can judge for ourselves what she signed off. It would be good to

:15:49. > :15:53.know what happened because there are stories that in some places

:15:53. > :15:56.people presented passports that would even checked, they weren't

:15:56. > :16:04.even swiped so you can check whether somebody is a criminal on

:16:04. > :16:08.the Interpol list. If that is the case, we were waving people through.

:16:08. > :16:12.Theresa May has said she had no knowledge of the fact that the

:16:12. > :16:22.relaxing of the rules had extended beyond EU nationals, and this was a

:16:22. > :16:23.

:16:23. > :16:28.decision taken by the UK borders It is no better to say she only

:16:28. > :16:31.intended it to happen for EU nationals, because actually, it is

:16:31. > :16:35.EU passports that are often the most forged because they are the

:16:35. > :16:42.most valuable. It was a mistake in policy in the first place. As far

:16:42. > :16:49.as I can see, Theresa May's defence is that she was clueless. So she is

:16:49. > :16:54.not much good as they Home Secretary. This was rolled out at

:16:54. > :17:02.the start of the summer months to relax the rules, -- ball doubt.

:17:02. > :17:08.This did not get put before Parliament? There is a con here.

:17:08. > :17:18.She is saying it is a pilot, but normally, a pilot you just conduct

:17:18. > :17:19.

:17:19. > :17:24.in once called for a limited amount of time -- it once called. It is

:17:24. > :17:29.not a pilot, it is so a change of policy. So do think there will be

:17:29. > :17:33.more questions for her to answer today? She has got to publish all

:17:33. > :17:36.the paperwork that came across her desk. It is very disturbing that

:17:36. > :17:41.she is still refusing to publish it because I think there's something

:17:41. > :17:46.you know she doesn't want us to see. You also have another debate here

:17:46. > :17:52.in parliament today. Tell us about that. Yes, I have got to run from

:17:52. > :17:58.the chamber to Westminster Hall to do a speech about support for

:17:58. > :18:02.artists. I believe that art is part of the lifeblood of the nation. It

:18:02. > :18:06.is really important that in our schools and in the whole of society

:18:06. > :18:16.we provide strong support for artists. There are quite a few

:18:16. > :18:18.

:18:18. > :18:24.famous Welsh artists. I want see the support applied to the estates

:18:24. > :18:28.of deceased artists, because quite often they are the people who

:18:28. > :18:33.protect the memory of those artists. That would be good for society.

:18:33. > :18:43.Disturbingly, the average artist in Britain at the moment fence �10,000.

:18:43. > :18:44.

:18:44. > :18:50.That is when the average wage in Britain is �3,000 -- earns �10,000.

:18:50. > :18:55.The think there's a possibility for a career in that order world -- do

:18:55. > :19:00.you think? Many are having to do lots of other jobs as well. I know

:19:00. > :19:04.people say that is the nature of being an artist, but actually, if

:19:05. > :19:08.you go to some of the great exhibitions, see some other great

:19:09. > :19:16.works of art, they can completely transform your own understanding of

:19:16. > :19:20.your life and the world your living. Also, if you don't have artists

:19:20. > :19:24.functioning full time, you don't have people come into schools to

:19:24. > :19:28.enable young people's attention as well. We need to do more to support

:19:29. > :19:34.the British artists, in particular a lot of them in Wales. What can

:19:34. > :19:38.politicians do? We can change the law on the 1st January 1920 12 to

:19:38. > :19:42.make sure that the right that we introduced into thousands -- to

:19:42. > :19:47.govern a six that means that if you sell a painting by in living artist,

:19:47. > :19:56.the artist gets a share of that, but that would not just apply to a

:19:56. > :20:00.living artist but also the estates of deceased artists. Also, we need

:20:00. > :20:04.to do more to support individual artists and tackle the problem of

:20:04. > :20:08.internships, a way young people who stopped working in a gallery have

:20:08. > :20:15.to work for free. I think the national minimum wage should apply

:20:15. > :20:19.to them. We can talk about the Border Agency row later but I'll

:20:19. > :20:26.have a quick word with my guests about the current state of play

:20:26. > :20:36.with the arts in Wales. Does what Chris Bryant said have any

:20:36. > :20:37.

:20:37. > :20:47.residents with you? -- resonance? think many of our problems in terms

:20:47. > :20:51.

:20:51. > :20:55.of education and so on our cultural. As Michael Higgins has made it

:20:55. > :21:01.clear, he sees art fundamental to the health of the nation and I

:21:01. > :21:06.concur with that. Art is normally the first Budget they get hit, we

:21:06. > :21:11.are not hearing much about it this time because there are cuts to

:21:11. > :21:15.education, but art is normally the poor relation, isn't it? Yes, the

:21:15. > :21:21.reality is that certainly the Welsh governments will have given

:21:21. > :21:26.commitments to protect social services and education in

:21:26. > :21:34.particular. More often than not -- than not it is culture and the arts

:21:34. > :21:38.that take a hit. It is a difficult issue in the current climate. It

:21:38. > :21:43.was also quite telling that Chris Bryant was talking about measures

:21:43. > :21:53.that we introduced in 2006 but were never implemented by Labour. There

:21:53. > :21:55.

:21:55. > :22:01.is a case of opposition politics coming to the fore. Never! Cuts

:22:01. > :22:05.were applied but it wasn't as bad as it was in England. We talk about

:22:05. > :22:13.the arts as may be something we should give money to to keep it

:22:13. > :22:17.going, but what can be up stiffer economy? There is media that is

:22:17. > :22:22.tied into the art, there's a debate in the course of this week talking

:22:22. > :22:26.about whether there was need for one of the enterprise zones to

:22:26. > :22:35.actually take it back to the 4th. The culture is not just about

:22:35. > :22:43.enjoyment. -- back to the fore. There is an animation School that

:22:44. > :22:48.we were talking about, having started industries, there are

:22:48. > :22:55.possibilities in the wide scope of things. Obviously, it is not

:22:55. > :23:00.involving the numbers of people that other industries are.

:23:00. > :23:08.In Amsterdam, the culture of that city is one big Ferenc -- one big

:23:08. > :23:15.thing that drives its tourism industry. The arts and culture, it

:23:15. > :23:19.is at the heart of many of a successful cities. I would say the

:23:20. > :23:27.same about Wales. It is fundamental to the basic Helford the nation to

:23:27. > :23:29.have a thriving arts community -- basic help of the nation.

:23:29. > :23:35.If you look at most European countries they did spend more on

:23:35. > :23:40.the arts than we have ever done anyway.

:23:40. > :23:45.Still to come, we will go live to the House of Commons for Prime

:23:45. > :23:55.Minister's Questions. There has been a sharp increase in the number

:23:55. > :23:57.

:23:57. > :24:01.of families turning to family hands out -- to handouts. A I'm joined by

:24:01. > :24:11.Leanne Wood to talk about food banks. Let's talk about the basics.

:24:11. > :24:11.

:24:11. > :24:15.What is the food bank? They provide three days' worth of

:24:15. > :24:21.non-perishable food to those who don't have the money to pay for

:24:21. > :24:27.their own food. We have 15 food banks throughout Wales now and

:24:27. > :24:31.demand is growing very quickly. The charity concerned with the food

:24:31. > :24:35.banks is hoping to expand their networks are the provision can be

:24:35. > :24:40.made of lead -- available to people wherever they are in Wales. So, in

:24:40. > :24:43.2011, we have got people who cannot afford to read? Yes, it is similar

:24:43. > :24:48.to the situation back in the 1930s during the Great Depression when

:24:48. > :24:55.people came together to form up soup kitchens for those who were

:24:55. > :24:58.unable to afford food. And here we are in 2011 with a very similar

:24:58. > :25:03.situation. I feel very ambivalent about the fact that we need food

:25:03. > :25:06.banks in this day and age. We should not be needing them, but the

:25:06. > :25:12.reality is that demand is growing very fast and we do need them

:25:12. > :25:18.urgently in some parts of Wales now. Some people won't understand why

:25:18. > :25:22.when we do have a security system that wasn't there in the 1930s, it

:25:22. > :25:26.will shock many people that many people are reliant on this and

:25:26. > :25:30.you're expecting more? For many people, the benefits they have not

:25:30. > :25:38.enough to live on. Some people have been removed from the benefits

:25:38. > :25:41.system altogether. If people are paying out monthly debt charges,

:25:41. > :25:49.then the mark that they have left can be very limited. I have had

:25:49. > :25:53.some harrowing stories, of their mother for example, who was eating

:25:53. > :25:57.paper towels to avoid the pain in her stomach because she could not

:25:57. > :26:07.afford to read. I know from my inexperience how great for people

:26:07. > :26:08.

:26:08. > :26:14.are when they are able to provide a meal for their family -- great for.

:26:14. > :26:18.-- grateful. We need to make sure that there is this basic level of

:26:18. > :26:26.provision. Given that the demand is so great, we should do everything

:26:26. > :26:31.we can to make sure that people do get food which is a basic of life.

:26:31. > :26:36.You're speaking on Wednesday in the Senedd. What you want to see

:26:36. > :26:39.achieved? This has come from voluntary contributions, are you

:26:39. > :26:44.looking for the Assembly government to actually make investment in it

:26:44. > :26:50.as well? If there is any merit that the government can put towards the

:26:50. > :26:55.food bank network and that would be very gratefully received. It relies

:26:55. > :27:05.on volunteers and donations from the public, or fruit from the

:27:05. > :27:09.

:27:09. > :27:14.supermarket. -- booed. -- food. I heard of a man who walked a long

:27:14. > :27:17.journey because he could not afford to collect his food parcel bypass.

:27:17. > :27:24.There are other ways around that perhaps government could provide

:27:24. > :27:28.some support with. And are these food banks distributed across Wales

:27:28. > :27:34.or scented in particular areas at the moment with luck they are not

:27:34. > :27:37.right Iraq Wales. The contribution seems to be in the valleys area.

:27:37. > :27:43.But the charities that are organising a want it throughout

:27:43. > :27:46.Wales now. And presumably there will be ever more need for this in

:27:46. > :27:52.the months and years to come? Reports are suggesting that

:27:52. > :27:55.unemployment has not peaked in Wales yet. Yes, we had heard that

:27:55. > :27:59.the problem is going to get an awful lot worse and the demand will

:27:59. > :28:09.further increase. We need to make sure that the network is available

:28:09. > :28:11.

:28:11. > :28:19.and they can make the demand that is put their way. Thank you very

:28:19. > :28:25.much. We have had plenty about the border

:28:26. > :28:28.row this morning, that is bound to dominate in Westminster? Yes, we

:28:28. > :28:31.need to clarification. My understanding is that there was a

:28:31. > :28:41.pilot scheme that was authorised by the Home Office that the attack

:28:41. > :28:45.

:28:45. > :28:52.more intelligence up to yesterday. The implication was that the PA had

:28:52. > :29:01.gone further than that and -- but that they had gone further than

:29:01. > :29:08.that. Certainly, the Labour government didn't get it right. We

:29:08. > :29:12.need a fair system. We also need a bed debate because if you go across

:29:12. > :29:19.Europe now, there are no border controls. I went to Italy in the

:29:19. > :29:24.summer, passing two countries. The reality is that the most effective

:29:24. > :29:28.targeting as far as international terrorism is involved is led by

:29:28. > :29:35.intelligence. But clearly there is clarification needed on the whole

:29:35. > :29:39.issue. You were saying about if you come off the ferry... If you want

:29:39. > :29:49.to come to Britain without being challenged, go to Ireland and then

:29:49. > :29:52.

:29:52. > :29:58.walkover on the ferry. But it is payback time in terms of politics.

:29:58. > :30:08.It is a bit of a storm in a teacup as far as I'm concerned. It could

:30:08. > :30:13.

:30:13. > :30:16.cost Theresa May a job, however? Lot of questions about possible

:30:16. > :30:25.plans for an independence referendum.

:30:25. > :30:30.What is he going to say about the young people?

:30:30. > :30:36.What the right honourable lady knows is that unemployment on the

:30:36. > :30:39.part of the Labour government rose as well.

:30:39. > :30:44.There is Theresa May, the Home Secretary, taking her place.

:30:44. > :30:51.We should all work together to resolve youth unemployment.

:30:51. > :30:55.Questions to the Prime Minister. Number one, please.

:30:55. > :31:00.I'm sure the whole House would wish to join me in paying tribute to

:31:00. > :31:03.private Matthew from the second Battalion at the mercy and Regiment,

:31:04. > :31:08.despite only being in the army for a short time, he had proved himself

:31:08. > :31:11.to be a dedicated and courageous soldier. He has made the ultimate

:31:11. > :31:17.sacrifice and we should send our deepest condolences to his family

:31:17. > :31:20.and friends. This week we will pause to consider all those who

:31:20. > :31:25.have lost their lives in defence of our country so we can enjoy peace

:31:25. > :31:28.and freedom and we are humbled by the sacrifice they have made. This

:31:28. > :31:33.morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and I shall

:31:33. > :31:38.have further such meetings later today.

:31:38. > :31:41.May I add my tribute to the sows death of the soldier, especially

:31:41. > :31:45.with remembrance Sword -- Remembrance Sunday so near. The

:31:45. > :31:51.Prime Minister is rightly concerned about jobs and growth. Consumer

:31:51. > :31:55.confidence is key to that. Telling 25 million workers they have no job

:31:55. > :32:01.security, will that boost or reduce consumer confidence?

:32:01. > :32:05.Clearly, what we have to do is make it easier for firms to hire people.

:32:05. > :32:09.That is why we have scrapped Labour's jobs tax, that is what we

:32:09. > :32:13.have taken one million of the lowest paid people out of tax and

:32:13. > :32:18.established new rules so you can only go to a tribunal after working

:32:18. > :32:23.somewhere for two years and we have introduced fees to stop vexatious

:32:23. > :32:29.claims. Added to that, we are investing in the work programme,

:32:29. > :32:34.and apprenticeships, all to help young people get jobs.

:32:34. > :32:41.Mr Speaker, can I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to

:32:41. > :32:43.private Matthew has Alden from the second Battalion. He showed immense

:32:43. > :32:49.courage trying to protect local people and our thoughts are with

:32:49. > :32:53.his family and friends. With troops serving in conflict overseas, it is

:32:53. > :32:58.even more important that we are on this weekend on Remembrance Sunday,

:32:58. > :33:02.all of those who have served our country and are serving our country

:33:02. > :33:05.today. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister tell us how many people

:33:05. > :33:13.entered the UK and to the Home Secretary's relaxed border

:33:13. > :33:18.controls? -- under the Home Secretary?

:33:18. > :33:21.The number of people who entered the country, the figures are

:33:21. > :33:27.published in the normal way. The number of people arrested was

:33:27. > :33:34.actually up by 10 % and the number of drug seizures was markedly up,

:33:34. > :33:40.and the number of firearms Segers was up by a 100 %. -- seizures.

:33:40. > :33:44.First, the Home Secretary did be greet a pilot for a more targeted

:33:44. > :33:48.approach to border control. This was for people within the European

:33:48. > :33:53.economic Area. It allowed better targeting of high risk people and

:33:53. > :34:00.best for children. This did not compromise security. I fully backed

:34:00. > :34:05.this and I think she was right to take this action. Second, and this

:34:05. > :34:08.is important, decisions were taken to extend this beyond the European

:34:08. > :34:14.economic Area nationals. This was not authorised by the Home

:34:14. > :34:18.Secretary. Went specific commission was asked for, it was not granted.

:34:18. > :34:22.This did not mean our borders were left undefended. Passports

:34:22. > :34:26.continued to be checked. As this was unauthorised action, as it was

:34:26. > :34:32.contrary to what the Home Secretary agreed, it is right that the head

:34:32. > :34:42.of the border force was suspended and I back that action completely.

:34:42. > :34:43.

:34:43. > :34:47.Mr Speaker, it is just not good enough. The Prime Minister cannot

:34:48. > :34:53.tell us how many people, how many millions of people, were let in

:34:53. > :34:57.under the relaxed border controls agreed by the Home Secretary. Mr

:34:58. > :35:02.Speaker, isn't it totally unacceptable that the Home

:35:02. > :35:07.Secretary chose to relax border controls in July and even yesterday

:35:07. > :35:12.she could not tell us which airports and ports it applied to,

:35:12. > :35:15.how many took it up and for how long.

:35:16. > :35:22.She provided those figures it and the number of arrests are as

:35:22. > :35:28.follows: Firearms, 100 % increase in seizures. 10 % increase in

:35:28. > :35:31.arrest of illegal immigrants. The simple fact that the Right

:35:31. > :35:38.Honourable gentleman has to except and I think everyone has to accept

:35:38. > :35:42.is this, the head of the UK Border Agency, Rob Whiteman, who also

:35:42. > :35:46.didn't know that this unauthorised action was taking place, he said

:35:46. > :35:49.this, and I think it is very important for the House to

:35:49. > :35:54.understand. The head of the border agency said this: Brodie Clark

:35:54. > :36:00.admitted to me that on 2nd November, that on a number of occasions this

:36:00. > :36:04.year, he authorised his staff to go further than a ministerial action.

:36:04. > :36:09.I therefore suspended him from his duties. In my opinion, it was right

:36:09. > :36:14.for officials to have recommended the pilot so we focused attention

:36:14. > :36:18.on higher risk to al border. It is an acceptable that one of my senior

:36:18. > :36:21.officials went further than was approved. That is why he was

:36:21. > :36:25.suspended and the Home Secretary backed that decision. It is an

:36:25. > :36:30.important issue to understand that Brodie Clark was suspended by the

:36:30. > :36:37.head of the UK Border Agency. It was a decision taken by him, backed

:36:37. > :36:47.by the Home Secretary and me. Isn't it utterly typical, Mr

:36:47. > :36:49.

:36:49. > :36:53.Speaker? When things go wrong, it Order. Just before the right

:36:53. > :36:58.honourable Dudman continues, let me just emphasise there are members on

:36:58. > :37:04.both sides shouting their heads off. Members of the youth parliament

:37:04. > :37:07.last Friday... Order! Who spoke brilliantly and passionately

:37:07. > :37:13.disagreed with each other but didn't shout at each other. Mr Ed

:37:13. > :37:18.Miliband. Mr Speaker, and what did the Home

:37:18. > :37:22.Secretary say in the past when she was in opposition when things went

:37:22. > :37:29.wrong with immigration? She said I am sick and tired of Government

:37:29. > :37:32.ministers who simply blame other people when things go wrong. The

:37:32. > :37:35.Prime Minister said yesterday in his evidence to the liaison

:37:35. > :37:42.committee about the relaxation of border controls in the last few

:37:42. > :37:48.months, and I quote, clearly, it is not acceptable it went on for so

:37:48. > :37:52.long. Mr Speaker, why did the Home Secretary allow it to happen?

:37:52. > :37:55.People blame me for not taking responsibility but then quote very

:37:55. > :38:05.clearly my words taking responsibility and say what isn't

:38:05. > :38:08.acceptable. Having a lecture in responsibility from a car -- from a

:38:08. > :38:12.party that troubled immigration, met an extra 2.2 million people

:38:12. > :38:18.into our country, that allowed everyone from the eastern Europe to

:38:18. > :38:22.come here with no transitional controls, that built up a backlog

:38:22. > :38:26.of half a million asylum claims and made no apology about it, and even

:38:26. > :38:33.today, when the Leader of the opposition is asked whether too

:38:33. > :38:37.many people were led into the country, he simply said no.

:38:37. > :38:44.He has been the prime minister for 18 months. He can't keep saying, it

:38:44. > :38:47.is nothing to do with him. It is his responsibility. A month ago,

:38:47. > :38:57.the Prime Minister gave a speech on border controls called reclaiming

:38:57. > :39:03.our borders. His Home Secretary at the time was busy relaxing our

:39:03. > :39:06.borders. Doesn't the Prime Minister think he should at least have no?

:39:06. > :39:10.The pilot the Home Secretary introduced meant more arrests, more

:39:10. > :39:16.firearms seized, war forged documents found. That is the truth

:39:16. > :39:20.of it. Officials went further than Home Office ministers authorised.

:39:20. > :39:26.That is what is wrong and that is where someone had to be suspended.

:39:26. > :39:32.It was the right decision. He asked what we have done. We are competing

:39:32. > :39:38.e borders so every flight would be checked outside the EU. We are

:39:38. > :39:43.creating the National borders agency. We seized more drugs than

:39:43. > :39:48.in the whole of last year. Last year we rejected 400,000

:39:48. > :39:52.applications for visas, we turned away 68,000 people without the

:39:52. > :39:56.correct documents. I am determined we have tough border controls and

:39:56. > :40:02.finally we have a Home Office and immigration officer that want to

:40:02. > :40:05.cut immigration. Anyone listening to the prime

:40:05. > :40:15.minister would have thought it had been a great success but it is a

:40:15. > :40:15.

:40:15. > :40:20.complete fiasco. Cuts to the UK border force. Can he confirm how

:40:20. > :40:24.many UK border staff are going to be cut under his Government?

:40:24. > :40:30.By the end of this Parliament, there will be 18,000 people working

:40:30. > :40:39.for the UK Border Agency, the same number as were walking -- working

:40:40. > :40:44.for them when he was sitting in the Treasury. He asked about what we

:40:44. > :40:49.have done in 18 months of office on immigration. Let me tell him. The

:40:49. > :40:54.first ever limit on work visas outside the European Union. We have

:40:55. > :41:00.stopped more than 470 colleges from bringing in bogus foreign students,

:41:00. > :41:03.we have cut student visas by 70,000. Anyone who comes here to get

:41:03. > :41:13.married has to speak English. We are ending automatic settling

:41:13. > :41:15.rights and stopping people misusing the Human Rights Act. We have done

:41:15. > :41:23.more in 18 months than he did in 13 years.

:41:23. > :41:27.The truth is it is a fiasco and he knows it. That is the reality. Mr

:41:27. > :41:33.Speaker, that is the pattern with the Government. Broken promises,

:41:33. > :41:43.growth incompetence, -- gross incompetence. He is leading a

:41:43. > :41:45.

:41:45. > :41:49.shambolic government. As ever, he completely lost his way.

:41:49. > :41:54.I think he should spend a little more time listening to the author

:41:54. > :42:04.of blue Labour, Lord Glassman. He said this, Labour lied about the

:42:04. > :42:05.

:42:05. > :42:09.extent of immigration. Where is the apology?

:42:09. > :42:13.On Friday, 3 Commando Brigade will be marching through the streets of

:42:13. > :42:16.per enough on their homecoming parade after a successful but

:42:17. > :42:21.costly tour of duty in Afghanistan. I know the Prime Minister will be

:42:21. > :42:28.with us in spirit but would he like to send a message to support to

:42:28. > :42:31.these brave and professional Royal Marines of whom we are very proud?

:42:31. > :42:41.I will join my honourable friend in doing that. The whole of the south-

:42:41. > :42:44.west and the country is incredibly proud of the remains. -- marines. I

:42:44. > :42:50.said my best wishes for the homecoming parade and we should put

:42:50. > :42:54.on record what they have achieved in Helmand province. They carried

:42:54. > :42:59.out 37,000 before it -- patrols. The trade over 1,300 Afghan

:42:59. > :43:03.uniformed police patrolman. They have made a difference to the

:43:04. > :43:08.safety of that country and our country.

:43:08. > :43:11.Does the Prime Minister think it is right and defensible that the Royal

:43:11. > :43:17.Bank of Scotland, which received massive bail-out steering the

:43:17. > :43:21.crisis, should now take -- payable than �500,000 out in bonuses this

:43:21. > :43:25.year? I don't think it is acceptable but

:43:25. > :43:30.it hasn't yet set its figures for bonus payments. The British

:43:30. > :43:34.Government is a large shareholder in the Royal Bank of Scotland.

:43:34. > :43:40.In joining me in giving our condolences to the relatives of the

:43:40. > :43:47.Red Arrows pilot killed at RAF Scampton less today, will the Prime

:43:47. > :43:52.Minister acknowledged the over riding need for safety and our

:43:52. > :43:56.campaign to save RAF Scampton from closure is not just based on

:43:56. > :44:00.sentiment but on the overriding need for the kind of save,

:44:00. > :44:04.uncluttered skies above North Lincolnshire which the Red Arrows

:44:04. > :44:08.need to practise safely? I'm sure the hearts of everyone in

:44:08. > :44:12.the house goes out to the family of the pilot who was killed in this

:44:12. > :44:16.terrible accident. It goes on top of a second accident which happened

:44:16. > :44:21.in the Red Arrows. A tragic time for something the whole country

:44:21. > :44:31.Viviers and loves. Ligature is extremely important and we need to

:44:31. > :44:33.

:44:33. > :44:37.get to the bottom of this accident. The trade unions yesterday

:44:37. > :44:44.published a has seen at the largest growth in an improvement in the

:44:44. > :44:49.country in my constituency. Can he tell me why he is letting young

:44:49. > :44:51.people down in my constituency? Obviously, we face the difficult

:44:51. > :44:55.situation with unemployment amongst young people right across the

:44:55. > :45:00.country and we need to do everything we can to help people

:45:00. > :45:03.back into work. That is why there is record investment going into

:45:03. > :45:07.apprenticeships and the work programme. The real need is to grow

:45:07. > :45:12.the private sector because it is a time that whoever was in Government

:45:12. > :45:22.would be having to make reductions. He shakes his head but look across

:45:22. > :45:30.

:45:30. > :45:35.the Europe at the reductions that Providing local the broader skills

:45:35. > :45:40.to take on these jobs, will the Prime Minister insure that the

:45:40. > :45:50.government does all it can to bond the completion of the newly opened

:45:50. > :45:51.

:45:51. > :45:56.High School in Lowestoft which will have such an important role. This

:45:56. > :46:03.here, Suffolk has an extra �33 million in capital funds. It has

:46:03. > :46:13.upped the authority to decide how to fund this money. -- it is up to

:46:13. > :46:14.

:46:14. > :46:19.the authority. Money is therefore important school project. We should

:46:19. > :46:24.pause to remember paying tribute to our war dead. At Senedd House

:46:24. > :46:28.across the nation we will pay homage to those who have made the

:46:28. > :46:38.Supreme sacrifice over the years. With the Prime Minister agree that

:46:38. > :46:38.

:46:38. > :46:46.whether it is in shops, schools, churches all on football pitches,

:46:46. > :46:51.it should not just be allowed to display the poppy but positively

:46:51. > :46:55.promoted to? I think it is it a remarkable achievement of the Royal

:46:55. > :47:02.British Legion that we have actually, over the past year's

:47:02. > :47:05.cover reintroduced the sense of the silence taking place. I think it is

:47:05. > :47:15.absolutely right. It is particularly appropriate in

:47:15. > :47:16.

:47:16. > :47:25.Northern Ireland where so many people have served so bravely in

:47:25. > :47:27.armed forces. To reduce the costs loaded on to the economy, will the

:47:27. > :47:36.Prime Minister encourage health authorities across the whole

:47:36. > :47:41.country to take part and care for the family's, where volunteer

:47:41. > :47:46.parents offer support to new parents, when half of all break-ups

:47:46. > :47:51.occur? My honourable friend has a great record in pushing forward

:47:51. > :47:54.this vital idea. It is a tragic fact that so many couple's break-up

:47:54. > :48:01.after the arrival of the first child because of the stresses and

:48:01. > :48:07.strains it can bring. We spend a huge amount of time as a country

:48:07. > :48:17.dealing with the problems, and we should spend more on trying to keep

:48:17. > :48:19.

:48:19. > :48:24.families together. On Friday, the UN Security Council will consider

:48:24. > :48:28.the democratically conveyed Palestinian request for full

:48:28. > :48:35.membership of the United Nations. Might the international community

:48:35. > :48:45.and not do more to advance to a solution by try to create a to

:48:45. > :48:48.

:48:48. > :48:51.state process? -- a two state. are making a full statement to the

:48:51. > :48:56.House about this issue and a few moments. The British government is

:48:56. > :49:06.fully behind a two state solution, but I believe that the we get this

:49:06. > :49:10.

:49:10. > :49:20.is not by a declaration so -- declarations at the UN, Israel and

:49:20. > :49:24.

:49:24. > :49:29.Palestine need to sit down. The winter fuel payment provides

:49:29. > :49:39.valuable help for millions of people in paying for fuel bills.

:49:39. > :49:43.Individuals are free to do it -- to donate. I would like to

:49:43. > :49:49.congratulate Peter Whyman of having a brilliant idea where people can

:49:49. > :49:56.donate some or all to those who need it most. With the government

:49:56. > :50:01.considered an option sent to a all the over-sixties on a letter to

:50:01. > :50:04.allow their donation to go to the winter appear automatically?

:50:04. > :50:09.think it is very important that we first of will keep the promises

:50:09. > :50:12.that we made to Britain's pensioners about keeping up these

:50:12. > :50:16.cold weather payments. I would not want to see any pressure

:50:16. > :50:22.unnecessarily put on people to do something that might not be in

:50:22. > :50:30.their own best interest. operational instructions from the

:50:30. > :50:36.UK Border Agency on 28th July says, we will cease opening the chips

:50:36. > :50:41.were down EA passport... Did anyone in the Home Office clear that

:50:41. > :50:46.document, and given the club -- conflicting stories between the

:50:46. > :50:53.Home Secretary's officials and her own version, where he published all

:50:53. > :50:59.the ministerial instructions? -- will you publish? The Prime

:50:59. > :51:03.Minister is trying desperately to make up the party ground he lost!

:51:03. > :51:07.The point I would make to him it is that there is going to be an

:51:07. > :51:11.inquiry carried out by the Independent chief Inspector of the

:51:11. > :51:17.border agency. The very person who found out what was going wrong in

:51:17. > :51:26.terms of operations undertaking that did not have the permission,

:51:26. > :51:30.and all these issues will be aired. On Christmas Day 1914, British and

:51:30. > :51:35.German troops put down their weapons and played a football match

:51:35. > :51:40.in no-man's-land. The following day, the bloody hostility was resumed,

:51:40. > :51:44.and we today whether poppy in remembrance of our war dead. Will

:51:44. > :51:52.the Prime Minister join me in condemning the outrageous decision

:51:52. > :51:57.by Fifa to refuse the home nations their request to wear a poppy as a

:51:57. > :52:00.simple mark of respect this weekend? The honourable lady not

:52:00. > :52:04.only speaks for the whole house but for the whole country in being

:52:04. > :52:10.completely baffled and angry by the decision made by Fifa. If teams

:52:10. > :52:13.want to be able to put the poppy on their shirt, as many teams do in

:52:13. > :52:17.our Football League, they should be able to do as -- at the national

:52:17. > :52:25.level. I think this is an appalling decision and I hope they will

:52:25. > :52:30.reconsider. The Prime Minister is removing the requirement for people

:52:30. > :52:34.to register to vote in Britain, thereby removing millions of

:52:34. > :52:39.people's right to vote. Is he not taking their money with one hand

:52:39. > :52:42.and taking their votes with another, and is thus not biggest --

:52:42. > :52:47.grotesque distortion of democracy to force austerity measures on the

:52:47. > :52:50.most vulnerable, while removing their voting power? The point I

:52:51. > :52:54.would make to the Honourable Gentleman is that we are actually

:52:54. > :53:04.introducing individual voter registration, which is a Labour

:53:04. > :53:07.

:53:07. > :53:17.policy. You should be welcoming. His constituency has only got

:53:17. > :53:23.

:53:23. > :53:31.62,000 people a, it is a basic actor of fairness to have seats at

:53:31. > :53:37.the same size. It is time we introduced it. Is the Prime

:53:37. > :53:42.Minister aware that there is growing evidence about increased

:53:42. > :53:46.abuse, intimidation, harassment on Park home side's across the

:53:46. > :53:50.country? Tackling these problems needs a political well, not a large

:53:50. > :53:55.sum of money. Will the Prime Minister give urgency to addressing

:53:55. > :54:02.these issues so that people get the protection they need and deserve a

:54:02. > :54:09.soon as possible? The UN borrowed EU raises an important point. --

:54:09. > :54:13.the honourable lady raises. There are some extremely good pop home

:54:13. > :54:18.owners who demonstrate responsibility and compassion, but

:54:18. > :54:28.frankly, some who don't. We are looking to provide a better deal

:54:28. > :54:30.

:54:30. > :54:33.for pop home residents increasing their protection. -- park home.

:54:34. > :54:37.is even more important now that our politics is in touch with the

:54:37. > :54:42.people we represent. With the Prime Minister therefore welcome the

:54:42. > :54:46.first successful people on this because parliamentary played --

:54:46. > :54:50.placement scheme? They are inspiring people who would not

:54:50. > :54:58.normally get the chance to take part in politics. With the Prime

:54:58. > :55:02.Minister agreed to meet them -- it would be Prime Minister agree?

:55:02. > :55:06.has made a huge amount an impact on this issue of social mobility and

:55:06. > :55:11.wanting to welcome people they have not had good chances in life. If

:55:11. > :55:15.there is time in my busy diary, I shall certainly do as she says. I

:55:15. > :55:19.do think there is an important opportunity for everyone in this

:55:19. > :55:23.house to look at organisations like the social mobility foundation that

:55:23. > :55:29.provide opportunities for interns from inner-city schools to come and

:55:29. > :55:32.work here in parliament. I think the scheme is excellent, to give

:55:32. > :55:41.people a really good chance to see what we do in this place, not just

:55:41. > :55:45.on Wednesday at 12pm, but more broadly. Does my right honourable

:55:45. > :55:53.friend think is right for honourable members take instruction

:55:54. > :56:03.from the GMB about how to vote on amendments? I think the Honourable

:56:03. > :56:07.Lady Rose is a serious issue. -- raises. I can sense resistance,

:56:07. > :56:11.which is not surprising when 80 % of their money comes from the trade

:56:11. > :56:17.unions, but when we discuss legislation in this country, it

:56:17. > :56:27.should be bringing our arguments and not just picking it up from a

:56:27. > :56:27.

:56:27. > :56:31.trade union. In my constituency, there are over 3,000 people

:56:31. > :56:35.claiming jobseeker's allowance, but the latest figures show there were

:56:35. > :56:39.only 300 job vacancies available. Jobs are being lost in the public

:56:39. > :56:43.and private -- private sector. How Hyde as unemployment have to go

:56:43. > :56:48.before the Prime Minister accepts that his economic policies simply

:56:48. > :56:53.are not working? Unemployment is to hide today. I want to see it come

:56:53. > :56:57.down from its already high levels. What we have to do to make that

:56:57. > :57:01.happen is to put resources into the Apprentice Scheme, to put resources

:57:01. > :57:05.into the work programme, to make sure we do all the things that help

:57:05. > :57:15.businesses to employ people. That is what this government is doing.

:57:15. > :57:20.

:57:20. > :57:25.They are cutting corporation tax, doing everything we can. Italian

:57:25. > :57:28.bond yields have jumped to an unsustainable 8.1 %. Could the

:57:28. > :57:34.Prime Minister police say what eurozone leaders must now do to

:57:34. > :57:37.stop the contagion? I do think one Honourable Friend makes an

:57:37. > :57:40.important point. If you don't have credibility about your plans to

:57:40. > :57:44.deal with your debts and deficits, whether you like the markets will

:57:44. > :57:48.not, they will not lend you any money. That is what we're seeing in

:57:48. > :57:54.countries like Greece and now in Italy, where the price of borrowing

:57:54. > :57:58.money is getting to and punters -- unsustainable level. It is a lesson

:57:58. > :58:03.to all of us to have sustainable plans to get on top of large debt.

:58:03. > :58:10.In terms of Europe, the problem of contagion is that as we degree

:58:10. > :58:20.incisive write-down of debt, people inevitably start asking questions.

:58:20. > :58:21.

:58:21. > :58:30.You need to have the biggest possible firewall. We need to put

:58:30. > :58:36.figures on that firewater stop this contagion going any further. Today,

:58:36. > :58:40.it now stands at 34 %, which is frankly shocking. In light of this,

:58:40. > :58:46.does he still believe that the decision to scrap the future jobs

:58:46. > :58:53.fund was the right one? Let me make the point that under Labour, youth

:58:53. > :58:57.unemployment went up. On the issue of the future jobs fund, the

:58:57. > :59:01.evidence we received one coming of the government was that the future

:59:01. > :59:05.jobs fund was three or four times more expensive than other job

:59:05. > :59:09.creation schemes, and indeed, in many parts of the country,

:59:10. > :59:13.including the West Midlands, the percentage of gods threw the future

:59:13. > :59:19.jobs front in the private sector was as low as two or three %. It

:59:19. > :59:23.was right to scrap the future job fund a but in its place

:59:23. > :59:31.apprenticeships, the work programme and work experience which will make

:59:31. > :59:35.a difference to young people. is the failure of politics. The

:59:35. > :59:42.people who go to war are not politicians, they are brave, serve

:59:42. > :59:46.as people -- service people. Could my Honourable Friend right to be

:59:46. > :59:52.fair to point out that the poppy is a symbol which says we respect the

:59:52. > :59:55.sacrifice that people have made on behalf of their country's? I will

:59:55. > :00:00.certainly do as My Honourable Friend says. It is not just an

:00:00. > :00:05.issue of writing to be fair, it is also asking its membership bodies

:00:05. > :00:12.to take a very strong line about this. This is not an issue of left

:00:12. > :00:15.or right, we all wear a poppy with pride. We all do it, even if we

:00:16. > :00:19.don't approve of the wars that people were fighting in. We do it

:00:19. > :00:24.to one of the fact that these people sacrificed their lives for

:00:24. > :00:33.cars. It is vital for Fifa to understand that and a clear message

:00:33. > :00:39.Building on the last answer the Prime Minister gave, given the fact

:00:39. > :00:45.that Italy is down an incredible fiscal path, in the words of the

:00:45. > :00:52.Prime Minister, can he assist the group of finance ministers to meet

:00:52. > :00:55.to help create a European stability pact?

:00:56. > :00:59.The Honourable Gentleman makes an important point. The first

:00:59. > :01:04.responsibility for building this bail-out fund has got to be with

:01:04. > :01:09.the euro-zone members. The problem at the G20, as we discussed on

:01:09. > :01:13.Monday, is you can't ask the G20 and the IMF to do things that the

:01:13. > :01:18.euro-zone members aren't prepared to do. We stand ready to boost the

:01:18. > :01:25.IMF. They want to help countries in distress. We don't produce the our

:01:25. > :01:29.trading partners collapse. -- want to see. Countries falling out of

:01:29. > :01:39.the euro could be painful for an hour economy but it is for the

:01:39. > :01:43.euro-zone countries to sort out the problem.

:01:43. > :01:48.Referring to a firewall in relation to these bail-outs, what we really

:01:48. > :01:52.need is structural renegotiation of the treaties, given the impact it

:01:52. > :01:58.is having on the United Kingdom, and to use a cricketing analogy, he

:01:58. > :02:06.would not be sent in with a broken- backed, he will be sent in with a

:02:06. > :02:11.new bat. This is a reference to 1990.

:02:11. > :02:16.There is a long history in my party of cricketing metaphors and Europe,

:02:16. > :02:19.ending and happily. I think I won't follow him down that path. What I

:02:19. > :02:23.would say is that we will defend the national interest. When there

:02:23. > :02:28.was a treaty change in the European council, we got something back for

:02:28. > :02:32.Britain, which was to get out of the EU bail-out fund. If there are

:02:32. > :02:37.future treaty changes, which are some European countries are pushing

:02:37. > :02:46.for, we will make sure we protect our national interest.

:02:46. > :02:50.I remind the House that this is others to stay on for it -- on

:02:50. > :02:55.Friday. The problems in the euro-zone

:02:55. > :03:01.dominating the session. Plenty to discuss on the sofa.

:03:01. > :03:05.Firstly, we will award the crystal ball award to Alun Ffred Jones for

:03:05. > :03:09.four saying that the business of the Border Agency would become a

:03:09. > :03:13.political ding-dong. Who came off better?

:03:13. > :03:19.The Prime Minister was very, very well briefed. He knew what he was

:03:19. > :03:21.fighting for, Theresa May's life. It is not hurt future that he is

:03:22. > :03:31.concerned about but the idea that if he loses another Cabinet

:03:31. > :03:36.minister, he will look bad. He fought very hard and I think Ed

:03:37. > :03:41.Miliband simply didn't hack it today.

:03:41. > :03:46.I would agree. The Prime Minister was very well prepared. He was

:03:46. > :03:52.factual and clearly in charge of his brief. As Alun Ffred Jones said,

:03:52. > :03:56.he had to. Ed Miliband didn't really land any punches, which,

:03:56. > :04:01.given how large the story is today, you perhaps would have expected him

:04:01. > :04:05.to have been better prepared. In terms of the importance of

:04:05. > :04:10.Theresa May in the cabinet, he has lost Liam Fox, which appealed to

:04:10. > :04:20.the right of the party. Theresa May is one of only three women in the

:04:20. > :04:23.

:04:23. > :04:26.cabinet. If she went, would there be an implication for him there?

:04:26. > :04:31.He has to tackle this impression that the Government isn't in charge

:04:31. > :04:36.of the agenda. It could give the impression that perhaps they are

:04:36. > :04:42.not fully in control. That is more of an issue, perhaps, than gender.

:04:42. > :04:47.Clearly, there is an issue regarding the impression the

:04:47. > :04:51.cabinet gives of being for middle aged men in grey suits.

:04:51. > :04:54.Talking of middle-aged men, we didn't see Nick Clegg there today.

:04:54. > :04:58.Obviously on very important business.

:04:58. > :05:02.There we are. The euro-zone question was inevitable as well.

:05:02. > :05:07.There was a question to the Prime Minister as to why Britain wasn't

:05:07. > :05:12.helping out. His answer was that the euro-zone should help itself.

:05:12. > :05:18.Both of you were talking here about the Italian debt and what effect

:05:18. > :05:23.that would have on Britain. If a big, big economy like the

:05:23. > :05:27.Italian economy goes down the drain, the theory is that there is hell to

:05:27. > :05:33.pay because where do you get that sort of back-up in funding? It can

:05:33. > :05:40.only come from Germany because they are the only country who are in

:05:40. > :05:46.good shape. In fact, it suits the Tories in Parliament to pretend

:05:46. > :05:53.this has nothing to do with them. The truth is if Italy goes haywire

:05:53. > :05:56.and spin starts to teeter, our banks will also be caught in the

:05:56. > :06:02.storm. He has to play this carefully and he can't say, this

:06:02. > :06:06.has nothing to do with me. Because they were the German and

:06:06. > :06:11.the French banks that were exposed to the Greek crisis. It is

:06:11. > :06:17.different now? Yes. It shows the contagion issue

:06:17. > :06:21.and the fact they must be very worried. The French and Germans

:06:21. > :06:27.were greatly exposed but as far as Greece is concerned, British banks

:06:27. > :06:35.were into Italy and spin big style. The whole euro-zone issue is a big

:06:35. > :06:39.one. We are dependent on exports to the euro-zone. It is a big worry

:06:39. > :06:43.and it shows the fact that governments throughout Europe need

:06:43. > :06:48.to work together. Certainly, there will be able for the IMF. Britain

:06:48. > :06:52.is a major contributor. We are in it for up to 40 billion,

:06:52. > :06:57.according to Danny Alexander? Yes, it is clear that Government

:06:57. > :07:00.policy is not to commit to the Euro bail-out fund. There are other

:07:00. > :07:04.economies in other parts of the world we have responsibilities

:07:04. > :07:09.towards, developing countries where there are debt issues as well.

:07:09. > :07:18.Where would you have stood when the debate was going on? Did you think

:07:18. > :07:26.Britain should have joined? Theoretically, I think we should

:07:26. > :07:35.have been in. The whole question was about the rates at which we

:07:35. > :07:40.join. Dafydd Wigley was right. The pound was too high. In retrospect,

:07:40. > :07:47.I still think, theoretically, it was a good idea. We are trading

:07:47. > :07:54.with all these people commonly and at the time, businesses were also

:07:54. > :07:57.keen to go in. Obviously, because of the huge discrepancies between a

:07:57. > :08:04.powerful economy like Germany and people like Greece and Portugal at

:08:04. > :08:08.the edges, it cannot hold it together. The future is very

:08:08. > :08:12.unpredictable. I don't think anyone would disagree

:08:12. > :08:17.with you. Coming upon the programme, we will be discussing organ

:08:17. > :08:20.donations. At the start of the programme, we heard criticism over

:08:20. > :08:25.the way the Welsh government is trying to boost the economic

:08:25. > :08:29.recovery. Earlier this morning, the First Minister met representatives

:08:29. > :08:34.from the private sector and trade unions to discuss how they can work

:08:34. > :08:39.together to support the Welsh economy. He said an announcement of

:08:39. > :08:42.spending �39 million to create jobs depended on getting an agreement

:08:42. > :08:45.for the Budget. He told our correspondent where his priorities

:08:45. > :08:49.lay. Jobs and skills. We cannot make

:08:49. > :08:52.detailed announcements until we get agreement on the Budget but clearly,

:08:52. > :08:57.we want to make sure that money is spent in the most effective way.

:08:57. > :09:01.That means making sure people have the right skills in future and that

:09:01. > :09:04.we spend money on projects in Wales that will create jobs.

:09:04. > :09:09.The comments by Ieuan Wyn Jones, it is a pretty major fall-out

:09:09. > :09:16.concerning the two will feel standing next to each other -- the

:09:16. > :09:21.two of you. Has he got a point that there is a perception of inactivity

:09:21. > :09:25.when it comes to responding to where we are now with the economy?

:09:25. > :09:29.This is part of politics. It is a luxury of opposition to criticise

:09:29. > :09:35.the Government when you are not putting forward ideas yourself. We

:09:35. > :09:43.have made significant announcements. School modernisation in Carmarthen

:09:43. > :09:48.sure is one of them. We are taking forward our Welsh jobs scheme where

:09:48. > :09:50.people will get training opportunities in future. We have

:09:50. > :09:54.delivered on the pledge of protecting education spending and

:09:54. > :09:57.now we want to move forward capital announcements this month.

:09:57. > :09:59.That was the First Minister, Carwyn Jones.

:10:00. > :10:02.It's Armistice Day on Friday and earlier this morning, the First

:10:02. > :10:05.Minister, Carwyn Jones, laid a wreath at the official opening of

:10:05. > :10:15.the Welsh Field of Remembrance at Cardiff Castle. And in the Senedd

:10:15. > :10:53.

:10:53. > :11:00.later today there's a debate on In the Senedd later today, there is

:11:00. > :11:04.a debate. I am joined by eight a Conservative

:11:04. > :11:10.minister who will be speaking in that debate. Marquee she would,

:11:10. > :11:19.your party wants to raise a number of issues, could you wind -- could

:11:19. > :11:23.you run through them briefly? The timing is very intentional. 97

:11:23. > :11:31.years since the start of the First World War. We need to acknowledge

:11:31. > :11:37.the sacrifice made by a at armed forces but also calling for the

:11:37. > :11:40.Welsh government to announce what proposals it has to recognise a

:11:40. > :11:45.century of the great for in three years' time. The UK Government has

:11:45. > :11:49.pledged it will be making announcements. It will be fantastic

:11:49. > :11:54.if the Welsh government could also announce it will be bringing ideas

:11:54. > :11:59.forward. We'll also promoting the idea of an armed forces card. We

:11:59. > :12:02.acknowledge the last government has picked up a number of proposals

:12:02. > :12:08.from our manifesto and brought them forward in his programme of

:12:08. > :12:13.government but there are still huge gaps. NHS priority treatment for

:12:13. > :12:17.our forces but we also know that frequently, those very people, when

:12:17. > :12:22.presenting for treatment, encounter doctors who do not know about that

:12:22. > :12:27.priority treatment. The Royal British Legion survey found that 81

:12:28. > :12:31.% of those who responded had encountered that very experience.

:12:31. > :12:35.Ann Jones, is that a fair point? Are people falling through the

:12:35. > :12:39.gaps? Yes. I think we have to look at

:12:40. > :12:42.where we are coming from. Mark started by saying we need to

:12:42. > :12:48.remember that ultimate sacrifice which many of our or Welsh

:12:48. > :12:52.servicemen and women repaid. We'll go in a way to was doing that. On

:12:52. > :12:56.the issue of post traumatic stress disorder, we are looking to find

:12:56. > :12:59.debris in which we can assist veterans through that. I sat on the

:12:59. > :13:03.last Health Committee when we look at this. There will always be

:13:03. > :13:06.people who drop through the net and we need to make sure that net will

:13:06. > :13:10.protect them and that is what the Welsh government is doing. We are

:13:10. > :13:15.looking at ways in which we can help veterans to get back into

:13:15. > :13:20.their communities. If they have a home, we are offering them a 50 %

:13:20. > :13:25.diktat -- described in council tax. We are looking at child care for

:13:25. > :13:29.their families so that those more seriously injured or disabled as a

:13:29. > :13:34.result of what they have suffered on the battlefield will be a comedy

:13:34. > :13:38.-- will be accommodated in their communities. It gives them an

:13:38. > :13:43.opportunity to live as families. I really don't think the card is

:13:43. > :13:47.necessary. I have long thought we carry too many cards and we need to

:13:47. > :13:51.get the services right for those people. I'm sure that is what the

:13:51. > :13:57.rut Government will do. The card in itself doesn't solve

:13:57. > :14:01.anything but do you feel that would go some way towards enabling people

:14:01. > :14:04.get what they are entitled to? You are saying people are not getting

:14:04. > :14:08.the priority treatment they are entitled to?

:14:08. > :14:17.Absolutely. We must speak with the people we are proposing to

:14:17. > :14:22.represent because this is what they are telling me. In terms of general

:14:22. > :14:28.access but also more complex post traumatic stress disorder. It

:14:28. > :14:32.usually takes about 10-12 years to fully present after the events on

:14:32. > :14:38.service that triggered it. It is becoming a growing issue because

:14:38. > :14:41.the number of engagements and it is putting ever greater pressure not

:14:41. > :14:45.only on services but on the growing population suffering from this

:14:45. > :14:50.conditions. They are telling us the current provision for them is

:14:50. > :14:53.woefully inadequate, that the NHS cannot meet their specialist

:14:53. > :14:59.complex needs and the need residential treatment centres for

:14:59. > :15:04.short-term says -- stays and respite. There are a number of

:15:04. > :15:07.projects in Wales trying to deliver that, despite or because of Welsh

:15:07. > :15:11.government intervention. We are calling on the government to

:15:11. > :15:18.engage with this. I don't think a card would do that.

:15:18. > :15:21.I have got cards but I can always to get them. If you appear at the

:15:21. > :15:26.surgery, I think the thing is to make sure people are aware of what

:15:26. > :15:29.we are trying to do for veterans but for the veterans to say they

:15:29. > :15:33.are veterans. There is a problem with some veterans, especially

:15:33. > :15:37.those that are getting older, they don't want to remember but they

:15:37. > :15:47.want the services. You have to find a way communities will look after

:15:47. > :15:53.

:15:53. > :15:57.By a different issue, I want to get your response to or the economic

:15:57. > :16:02.crisis. Is it true that the government here in Wales just is

:16:02. > :16:08.not doing its bit to respond to that? That is not true. We have

:16:08. > :16:12.seen announcements of �1.3 million, some of those who already been

:16:12. > :16:17.there in the business cases, but that is what we're doing. I do

:16:17. > :16:21.think that the UK government's plan is not working and that we have a

:16:21. > :16:31.detrimental effect on us. Prepping the Welsh government is keen to see

:16:31. > :16:31.

:16:31. > :16:35.jobs coming forward and we have got jobs for young people and Welsh

:16:35. > :16:41.Labour and now taking that background again. We will tackle

:16:41. > :16:45.youth unemployment. Mark, one of the complaints is that not enough

:16:45. > :16:52.is being done on the Capital Investment sides. It is difficult

:16:52. > :17:02.for the government here to do that with a 40 % cut over three years?

:17:02. > :17:05.

:17:05. > :17:15.It is about focusing what can be done rather than what cannot.

:17:15. > :17:15.

:17:15. > :17:22.can be done? Levering in Investment by supporting projects in those

:17:22. > :17:25.areas, housing for example. For every pound that goes into capital

:17:25. > :17:32.investment there, you are regenerating four pounds of

:17:32. > :17:38.investment in communities, creating jobs, skills and investment and

:17:38. > :17:45.small businesses. Is there more that can be done? There is always

:17:45. > :17:52.more that you can do. We are looking for a VAT break for people

:17:52. > :17:55.who were doing home-improvement, what Ed Balls was suggesting, those

:17:55. > :18:05.are the way forward. There is always more to do, but the Welsh

:18:05. > :18:11.

:18:11. > :18:15.government is doing the right thing. They should never forget that they

:18:15. > :18:20.have sent those people into more misery and despair with those cuts,

:18:20. > :18:24.and if that is what the UK coalition government wants to do

:18:24. > :18:33.then that is that, but the way forward is to get people back into

:18:33. > :18:39.jobs, into society. It has been replaced by the work programme and

:18:39. > :18:44.the Welsh government is fully engaged. Surely one thing we can

:18:44. > :18:54.agree on is that both governments need to get their act together.

:18:54. > :18:58.

:18:58. > :19:04.absolutely. The future job fund may have gone. Our correspondent has

:19:04. > :19:07.more from Westminster. A debate here in Westminster it is an

:19:07. > :19:13.opportunity for an individual MP to give attention to a subject that

:19:13. > :19:19.might not otherwise get attention. This week, the Dower MP has chosen

:19:19. > :19:25.to talk about cluster weapons. Cluster weapons for people who

:19:25. > :19:31.don't know, what exactly are they? They are a big bomb that contains a

:19:31. > :19:37.lot of smaller bombs. They explode in the air and all the little bombs

:19:37. > :19:45.are scattered. Most of them explode and kill anything in the area that

:19:45. > :19:49.they fall in. Unfortunately, that is bad enough, but even worse, many

:19:49. > :19:53.of them do not explode and they are left there in the rubble when

:19:53. > :19:59.people are clearing up their houses after the conflict, in the field

:19:59. > :20:06.when they try to reap their crops. Tragically, because they look like

:20:06. > :20:10.little toys, children pick them up and there have been innumerable

:20:10. > :20:14.incidents of the killing of children who have done up. There is

:20:14. > :20:17.no question about how dangerous they are a lot of countries have

:20:17. > :20:23.banned them, but why do you think it is pertinent to bring up the

:20:23. > :20:31.issue this week? Through something called the Oslo process, led

:20:31. > :20:41.honourably by Norway, we now have a treaty where 111 countries have

:20:41. > :20:48.announced completely these weapons. The previous government was

:20:48. > :20:54.converted to the cause of a complete ban and very honourably

:20:54. > :21:03.led the charge. The door of other countries that have banned them,

:21:03. > :21:10.but I sensed a but coming on -- you talk about. Sadly, they have

:21:10. > :21:17.refused so far to sign up to the convention. America, Russia, China,

:21:17. > :21:23.the big players. America can hold a pretty big cloud in international

:21:23. > :21:31.negotiations. You see any prospect of America backing down? I think

:21:31. > :21:38.any country can sign up to the Oslo process, because Cluster emissions

:21:38. > :21:44.are not actually that useful military. People are trying to use

:21:44. > :21:47.a protocol in the UN committee to introduce their own reduction in

:21:47. > :21:52.Gloucester emissions, but unfortunately or they're talking

:21:52. > :21:56.about doing is getting rid of cluster emissions but were built

:21:56. > :22:00.before 1980. By the time they actually get that ban, there is

:22:00. > :22:06.probably wouldn't be usable anyway. The really dangerous cluster

:22:06. > :22:16.omissions cover they want to hold onto. For instance, the MAT five,

:22:16. > :22:17.

:22:17. > :22:21.it did all that damage to children in the Lebanon -- the M 85.

:22:21. > :22:25.have met the minister responsible hear it in Westminster. There will

:22:25. > :22:29.be keen negotiations in the next couple of weeks. In an ideal world,

:22:29. > :22:33.what would you like to see happen at the end of that process? I would

:22:33. > :22:38.like to see, first, the United Kingdom resisting this protocol

:22:38. > :22:41.altogether. It is not going to be amended enough to get rid of those

:22:41. > :22:51.dangerous cluster emissions, but if it went through it would create an

:22:51. > :22:52.

:22:52. > :23:01.alternative architecture on Costa omissions. So they would get given

:23:02. > :23:07.legitimacy. -- cluster emissions. The problem lies the flipside is

:23:07. > :23:14.that it is a green light for the most dangerous cluster munitions of

:23:14. > :23:20.all. What we should be encouraging, the Americans and others, if they

:23:20. > :23:24.do want to take some steps and the right direction, that they make a

:23:24. > :23:28.political declaration to say what they will get rid of and encourage

:23:28. > :23:36.others to do the same. The sensible thing for them to do is to sign up

:23:36. > :23:39.to the Oslo Convention. The good luck with your debate.

:23:39. > :23:42.The Welsh Government is asking for your views on whether every adult

:23:42. > :23:44.should automatically be put on the organ donation register. But the

:23:44. > :23:46.controversial idea is already causing confusion. The health

:23:46. > :23:50.minister, Lesley Griffiths, has said that relatives would have no

:23:50. > :23:58.legal right to prevent organs being removed. But she admitted that

:23:58. > :24:02.clinicians would be unlikely to go ahead if families objected. Aled

:24:02. > :24:07.Roberts, what is your reaction to the idea of this policy of presumed

:24:07. > :24:11.consent? We have been in favour for three years now. The difficulty is

:24:11. > :24:15.that there was confusion yesterday. The Health Minister made a

:24:15. > :24:20.statement in the morning saying that families would not be able to

:24:20. > :24:24.enforce their will post death, where's the first minister

:24:24. > :24:28.yesterday afternoon in First Minister's Questions seemed to draw

:24:28. > :24:34.back on that and it was suggesting that the consultation would allow

:24:34. > :24:38.them to gauge whether or not there with a view that families should be

:24:38. > :24:45.able to. Their real practicalities that need to come out in

:24:45. > :24:52.consultation. How long the family would be given to veto and whether

:24:52. > :24:57.the NHS database is able to power and wealth to allow for a national

:24:57. > :25:00.programme. Certainly there have been issues regarding IT and

:25:00. > :25:05.different health boards not being able to talk to each other. Bathing

:25:05. > :25:09.their real practical issues that need to be fleshed out. -- I think

:25:10. > :25:18.there are real practical issues. was surprised yesterday morning

:25:18. > :25:24.when I heard the health minister was pressed on the subject of

:25:24. > :25:34.allowing a family's to override the wishes of their relatives --

:25:34. > :25:38.

:25:38. > :25:43.allowing families. It should be up to individual preference, with you

:25:43. > :25:50.actually partake. But if you see anybody suffering, in need of an

:25:50. > :25:54.organ, you would have to think very carefully why you would be against

:25:54. > :25:57.having presumed consent. But there are grey areas and I think that

:25:57. > :26:07.should be the subject of the consultation and the people should

:26:07. > :26:08.

:26:08. > :26:17.try and suggest ideas around that. I can see the problem that if you

:26:17. > :26:22.have somebody who has organs ready to donate and the families take

:26:22. > :26:30.upset -- exception to this because of tragic circumstances the, what

:26:30. > :26:32.you do? I'm sure there are ways around that. I presume this is a

:26:32. > :26:37.situation which occurs in other countries where they have already

:26:38. > :26:47.done this. We need more organs to be available. We can save lives and

:26:48. > :26:52.

:26:52. > :26:56.surely that should be at the front of our minds. We heard the

:26:56. > :27:03.archbishop being shot down by a lot of people who were probed presumed

:27:03. > :27:08.consent. But we have got to have the debate. Everyone is entitled to

:27:08. > :27:13.their view. As a person, if you're opposed to the concept of organ

:27:13. > :27:17.donation, the reality would be that you would opt out. But clearly

:27:17. > :27:23.there are issues. Moral issues, the government recognised yesterday

:27:23. > :27:27.that the government need to form part of this as far as the

:27:27. > :27:37.consultation is concerned. Do you think the government have thought

:27:37. > :27:41.

:27:41. > :27:50.it requires muck they have had long and up. At the end of the day, they

:27:50. > :27:57.-- it is a big issue. Democracy demands an open debate.

:27:57. > :28:04.You shouldn't try to close down the debate by saying you don't have the

:28:04. > :28:10.right to your opinion. It is going to be a difficult one. I would

:28:10. > :28:13.personally tend to come down on the other side. There is an issue over

:28:13. > :28:17.what the UK government might think about this, because there was

:28:17. > :28:27.disagreement about this in the past when Dominic Grieve said he could

:28:27. > :28:32.not see it happening. If that is an issue, let them declare it. I say

:28:32. > :28:35.we do have the right. I seem the government is quite