13/07/2011

:00:28. > :00:31.Good morning and welcome to am.pm. It is our final programme before

:00:31. > :00:35.the politicians' head back to their constituencies and prepare for

:00:35. > :00:39.their holidays, probably giving them plenty of work as well. Today

:00:39. > :00:43.will be at Prime Minister's Questions as Government and

:00:43. > :00:48.opposition call on Rupert Murdoch to abandon his plans to take full

:00:48. > :00:52.control of BSkyB. David Cameron was in the Senedd yesterday with summer

:00:52. > :00:57.eyes on public services on the day the First Minister on Bill's his

:00:57. > :01:00.legislative programme. And I will be gauging opinion on the Welsh

:01:00. > :01:10.Government's plans and looking at possible moves to ban smoking in

:01:10. > :01:12.

:01:12. > :01:17.Joining meet today are at Labour's Ann Jones and Conservative Angela

:01:17. > :01:22.Burns. We will be back to you in a moment. It was a busy day in

:01:22. > :01:24.Cardiff Bay yesterday, that First Minister was unveiled in the last

:01:24. > :01:30.Government's legislative programme for the next five years. The Prime

:01:30. > :01:32.Minister was also in the Senedd, he told a AMs an inquiry into the way

:01:32. > :01:36.Wales' was funded by the UK Government would be carried out and

:01:36. > :01:42.said the UK Government was revolutionising the public sector

:01:42. > :01:46.in England and had a message for Carwyn Jones. Let me defrag. Many

:01:46. > :01:50.other parts of the UK, some public services in Wales are too

:01:50. > :01:54.bureaucratic to deliver those improvements. I fundamentally

:01:54. > :01:59.believe that now is the time to modernise our public services and

:01:59. > :02:03.in England, that is what we're doing, we're opening up choice, for

:02:03. > :02:07.the schools we send our children to and hospitals we are treated in. We

:02:07. > :02:11.are picking open the state monopoly and inviting the new providers.

:02:11. > :02:14.We're making the system more transparent. I believe these

:02:14. > :02:18.changes will revolutionise public services in England and improve

:02:18. > :02:26.people's lives. I also believe that more open public services could do

:02:26. > :02:31.the same in Wales. That was not the wisest part of the speech.

:02:31. > :02:35.Lecturing the UK cut minute on where they're going on. He and I

:02:35. > :02:40.would disagree on a number of things but I welcome to the element

:02:40. > :02:46.that talked about the setting up of the commission, it is important

:02:46. > :02:50.that the work is carried on as soon as possible in the autumn.

:02:50. > :02:54.Carwyn Jones also went on to unveil his legislative programme for the

:02:54. > :02:58.next five years yesterday. There will be at least 21 bills in the

:02:58. > :03:03.areas including organ donation, cycling, improving schools and

:03:03. > :03:09.tackling homelessness. He told AMs it was a sustainable programme.

:03:09. > :03:13.Plenty for our guests to get their teeth into. Sustainability lies at

:03:13. > :03:19.the heart of the Welsh,'s agenda and it lies at the heart of this

:03:19. > :03:23.legislative programme. -- the Welsh Government's agenda. It will

:03:23. > :03:27.promote well-being and it will enhance quality of life in Wales.

:03:27. > :03:30.Our approach to sustainable development has been to focus on

:03:31. > :03:35.fairness and social justice and the protection of our outstanding

:03:35. > :03:40.culture and heritage. Sustainability is more than just a

:03:40. > :03:44.green idea, -- dream more idea, it is about a long-term development

:03:44. > :03:50.plan for our nation. It means healthy and productive people, I

:03:50. > :03:53.put communities, a diverse and resilient environment and an

:03:53. > :03:59.advanced an innovative economy. it for our guests to get their

:03:59. > :04:03.teeth into, and they were almost about to get started - I started to

:04:03. > :04:06.get any head from Carwyn Jones again. Now is your chance. It was

:04:07. > :04:14.said yesterday, you waited long enough for this programme, now it

:04:14. > :04:18.is here, are you satisfied with it? No. There are some good bills

:04:18. > :04:22.coming through, and I should be interested to see what the

:04:22. > :04:27.Education Bill will start to bring forward, because it has been

:04:27. > :04:32.recognised that education in Wales is in a tight corner and the need

:04:32. > :04:35.to move that forward. But there is nothing on the economy. That is

:04:35. > :04:40.surprising because we need to have a strong economy in Wales to help

:04:40. > :04:44.drive us forward and create the funds to help pay for the very

:04:44. > :04:49.important services that we need. There are a lot of gaps that we

:04:49. > :04:53.found very concerning, and it was good to see other things re appear,

:04:53. > :04:58.like organ donation, because there is a debate that must be had

:04:58. > :05:02.worldwide on that issue. Let's see what Ann Jones says. We had from

:05:02. > :05:06.Angela Burns about what was not to let, let us talk about what was.

:05:06. > :05:11.What were the highlights for you? 21 features of legislation, which

:05:11. > :05:19.one do you see as been the most important? For most of water for my

:05:19. > :05:23.constituents will be a house in Bel, it is important, I think the

:05:23. > :05:29.Housing Bill for the worst Government can take more protection

:05:29. > :05:33.for tenants and that will certainly make my life a lot easier. But also

:05:33. > :05:41.families who are currently in private rented accommodation. There

:05:41. > :05:48.are very unscrupulous landlords. I think the point about the economy,

:05:48. > :05:53.we do need bills to look at a strong economy, we have to look

:05:53. > :05:58.forward. We have to create there was opportunities for a strong

:05:58. > :06:04.economy. If people would have seen a bill, maybe they would have had

:06:04. > :06:09.more confidence. Looking at enterprise zones. Encouraging the

:06:10. > :06:13.bankers in Wales to be a lot more supportive of smaller businesses.

:06:13. > :06:18.97% of Welsh businesses tend to fall into the small to medium-sized

:06:18. > :06:22.bracket. They eat look to the Government and they want to hear

:06:23. > :06:26.that voice, we are in this with you. You talk about public sector, which

:06:27. > :06:34.is extremely important. And you also have to bring up that private

:06:34. > :06:37.sector. It does not needed will to do that. That is what the

:06:37. > :06:47.Government is taking forward now, recognising that went we will look

:06:47. > :06:51.at those, and individual sectors we can promote. We have or huge of to

:06:51. > :06:56.electronics firm, but we do not need bills for enterprise. Maybe we

:06:56. > :07:02.don't need a bell if the Government moves ahead and to play the

:07:02. > :07:09.reorganises all of the council's. - - Abdul. We may come to that later.

:07:09. > :07:13.David Cameron touched on that cluster him said ossify. Let us

:07:13. > :07:18.talk about what he had to say yesterday. What did you think of

:07:18. > :07:26.what he had to say? It seemed to suggest, look what I am doing, you

:07:26. > :07:29.should do it to. There was Government voted for Labour

:07:29. > :07:34.Government who would protect public services. I think he should not

:07:34. > :07:38.tell us to do what he is doing. think he is talking about what they

:07:38. > :07:42.are doing in England. We are looking at best practice. Whether

:07:42. > :07:45.it is schools or councils, surely it is the same in Government. You

:07:45. > :07:50.look to what Scotland and England are doing. The point he was trying

:07:50. > :07:55.to make was look at what they're doing, best practice, because we

:07:55. > :08:02.have to deliver a solid future for Wales. If you look at faces of some

:08:02. > :08:08.Labour ministers, they would be very good in a game of poker.

:08:08. > :08:11.�57 million for abroad and was given, that is a good way forward.

:08:11. > :08:18.This is again them back to the economy, it not the family to

:08:18. > :08:21.develop. Agreement has broken out on the so far? Drop us a line if

:08:21. > :08:27.you have anything to say on any of the stories on the programme today.

:08:27. > :08:37.You can get in touch on Twitter, the address is @walespolitics.

:08:37. > :08:37.

:08:37. > :08:46.Would you can write to last. -- or are you can write to us. Would you

:08:46. > :08:49.can e-mail at Mill. At busy day ahead at Westminster.

:08:49. > :08:55.When you are sat with us last week, phone hacking dominated again, the

:08:55. > :08:59.Prime Minister will be making a statement later.

:08:59. > :09:04.You cannot hearers, David? Hopefully we will come back to

:09:04. > :09:13.David later on. Our reporter Mark Hannaby hopefully will be able to

:09:13. > :09:18.here last! He is outside the Senedd. This afternoon, we start as usual

:09:18. > :09:23.with questions from ministers, this week it is Leighton Andrews and

:09:23. > :09:27.Carl Sergeant, they will be taking questions of members. Following

:09:27. > :09:31.that we're told Leighton Andrews will make a statement on the report

:09:31. > :09:37.into schools, which should be interesting. Then there is a motion

:09:37. > :09:41.to admit the EU -- the new Lib Dem members, to committees of the

:09:41. > :09:45.Assembly. Following from that, there will be the debate proper of

:09:45. > :09:51.the afternoon, the Welsh Conservatives want to top about

:09:51. > :09:54.tourism, the promotion of Wales's image overseas. -- to talk about.

:09:55. > :09:59.Plaid Cymru want to talk about public sector jobs and in

:09:59. > :10:04.particular the Welsh Government's own jobs. You may remember there

:10:04. > :10:08.was some concern about the future of Dairy as well as Government

:10:08. > :10:11.offices. In particular, places like Newtown, Caernarfon. We are

:10:11. > :10:14.wondering whether they will keep the last Government offices. Plaid

:10:14. > :10:20.Cymru are calling on the Government to give some guidance on what they

:10:21. > :10:23.plan to do there. Following from that, the lead Dems want to talk

:10:23. > :10:28.about business rates. They would like the Government to review

:10:28. > :10:31.business rates, which they feel is an impediment to small businesses

:10:31. > :10:35.in a difficult economic climate and they would like an extension of

:10:35. > :10:39.business rate relief. That is your business this afternoon. I hope

:10:39. > :10:43.everyone enjoys it. We will be back to speak to mark

:10:43. > :10:48.later on. He will have guests with him throughout the morning and

:10:48. > :10:53.afternoon. Let us try to speak to David Cornock again.

:10:53. > :10:56.Hello. There he is. Phone hacking dominated last week when we had

:10:57. > :11:02.this conversation. It is dominating again this week. The Prime Minister

:11:02. > :11:06.is going to make a statement? Phone hacking will probably

:11:06. > :11:11.dominate three events in Parliament today, first Question Time, and

:11:11. > :11:14.ever be surprised if it was not raise them, then at 12.30, a

:11:14. > :11:19.statement from the Prime Minister about the nature of the inquiry

:11:19. > :11:25.into the failure of the police to investigate properly the phone

:11:25. > :11:29.hacking scandal. And the wider inquiry into the question of media

:11:29. > :11:34.ethics, we will possibly get the name of the judge then after talks

:11:34. > :11:40.between the main three party leaders last night. Around four

:11:40. > :11:50.o'clock we will get an debate on a Labour motion, which calls on

:11:50. > :11:53.

:11:53. > :11:57.Rupert Murdoch to withdraw his bid to buy BSkyB. As we know, everybody

:11:57. > :12:01.from opposition to the Government, is lining up in favour of that

:12:01. > :12:05.notion. David, I do not think I am giving

:12:05. > :12:09.away anything about your age, but you have covered loads of big

:12:09. > :12:12.events in Westminster. Where does this rank with some of the stories

:12:13. > :12:18.you have covered? It is an extraordinary scandal by

:12:18. > :12:22.any measure, it involves MPs, MPs feel they were like to buy

:12:22. > :12:26.newspapers, MPs are pretty cross about that and when they get cross

:12:26. > :12:32.about something that has happened to them, it tends to get personal.

:12:32. > :12:36.What has been astonishing for me in the time I have been reporting

:12:36. > :12:40.politics in the news generally is the way the story has changed hour

:12:40. > :12:46.by hour. I can tell you what I think will happen, during the rest

:12:46. > :12:49.of the day, but in an hour's time, by the time I speak to radio

:12:49. > :12:56.listeners at one o'clock, everything might have changed again.

:12:56. > :12:59.It has been an unusual story. The rolling news television channels,

:12:59. > :13:06.they might do quite well out of this.

:13:06. > :13:11.Just trying to, Labour MP, was quite influential in securing a

:13:11. > :13:16.debate last week. -- Chris Bryant. What other Welsh MPs saying about

:13:16. > :13:21.this? Certainly, the sort of praise for

:13:21. > :13:28.Chris Bryant, even from those who are perhaps not previously signed-

:13:28. > :13:32.up members of his fan club. The Speaker agreed, he forced that

:13:32. > :13:36.urgent debate and that has put the Government on the back foot.

:13:36. > :13:41.Certainly the Conservatives in some ways which this would go away,

:13:41. > :13:46.because it comes down again to the question of why did David Cameron

:13:46. > :13:52.appoint a former editor of their News of the World in Downing Street

:13:53. > :13:55.as his Director of Communications? For Labour, it has given Ed

:13:55. > :14:00.Miliband after let, he seems to have been in touch with the public

:14:00. > :14:04.mood on this. He seems to have led on this in that way that has left

:14:04. > :14:08.the Government and David Cameron playing catch-up.

:14:08. > :14:13.For the time being, thanks, David. Speak to you later for Prime

:14:13. > :14:17.Minister's Question. You can get updates from David on BBC Radio

:14:17. > :14:23.Wells all through the day. We just heard from David that the

:14:23. > :14:26.Prime Minister will speak to the UK Government, it is in fact a Labour

:14:26. > :14:29.motion on Rupert Murdoch's takeover of BSkyB in the Commons this

:14:29. > :14:34.afternoon. David Cameron and Nick Clegg met Ed Miliband last night

:14:34. > :14:38.and it is expected they will all go together to make Mr Murdoch abandon

:14:38. > :14:48.his bid for BSkyB. Our reporter debt and James has been speaking to

:14:48. > :14:49.

:14:49. > :14:55.the Labour MP David Hanson, who has At and I am pleased they have

:14:55. > :15:00.joined the Labour opposition today. We want to support the motion to

:15:00. > :15:04.stop Rupert Murdoch preceding. The Government have been dragged to

:15:04. > :15:10.this by the opposition. They did not want to be where they are now.

:15:10. > :15:15.Events have dictated the decisions. Some people will be saying that

:15:15. > :15:18.politicians have been slow to take on Rupert Murdoch and his monopoly.

:15:18. > :15:25.Why has it been slow for the politicians to look at the

:15:25. > :15:30.monopoly? I think there are issues around that but it's demonstrate in

:15:30. > :15:36.the past few weeks with the stories about News of the World that there

:15:36. > :15:40.are concerns about this issue. Today, we have I suspect a

:15:40. > :15:45.unanimous opinion from the House of Commons. There is not an

:15:45. > :15:51.opportunity for Rupert Murdoch to continue. Do you welcome the

:15:51. > :15:55.inquiry into the hacking scandal? But should it be wider and include

:15:55. > :15:59.the relationship between the politicians and the press? We need

:15:59. > :16:07.a sensible look at this. Politicians must speak to the media.

:16:07. > :16:12.I am speaking to you now. We must do that off-camera and on camera.

:16:12. > :16:18.But there is a relationship that must be subject to scrutiny. We

:16:18. > :16:25.must have a balance and we hope the inquiry will be a sensible balance.

:16:25. > :16:29.What would you like the inquiry to look at? We need an open and

:16:29. > :16:34.democratic journalism. We need a proper relationship between

:16:34. > :16:40.political life and journalism. We must have a plurality of ownership.

:16:40. > :16:44.People must have a redress when or wrongs are done. We must have

:16:44. > :16:51.standards. These types of practices in the past few weeks are not

:16:52. > :16:54.acceptable. Not just legally, but in moral judgment. I want to talk

:16:55. > :17:01.to you about the evidence given by the Home Affairs Committee

:17:01. > :17:03.yesterday by several officers from the Metropolitan Police. That

:17:03. > :17:09.included John Mark Yates, assistant commissioner. You were a police

:17:10. > :17:15.minister under the last government. Was his evidence convincing? He has

:17:15. > :17:19.to answer for what he was doing. I was a minister when he said to be

:17:19. > :17:26.at the time that he had looked at these charges and I reported to the

:17:26. > :17:30.House. He must accept that his decisions at that time were not

:17:30. > :17:37.very good. But what is more important is that we investigate

:17:37. > :17:41.into how the police performed not just in 2009 but in 2006. It

:17:41. > :17:48.appears the evidence was there to lead to some of the charges that

:17:48. > :17:53.are not for coming in the allegations. -- forthcoming.

:17:53. > :17:59.said he regretted some of the decisions. But some would say it

:17:59. > :18:05.was incompetence. Should he resign? I am not calling for that. He must

:18:05. > :18:08.decide whether he performed. What I will want to see happen is an

:18:08. > :18:13.investigation into what he was doing and why he was doing that and

:18:13. > :18:18.what his predecessors did. In the separation between ministers and

:18:18. > :18:23.police, he said we did not have evidence. It appears that evidence

:18:23. > :18:29.was there. There was a systemic failure. I hope the inquiry will

:18:29. > :18:33.tell us what happened and why these decisions were taken. One of the

:18:33. > :18:38.questions was the issue of police officers taking payments from News

:18:38. > :18:45.International. You were the police minister. Are you are aware of

:18:45. > :18:52.this? Nothing ever crossed my desk about that in the nine months that

:18:52. > :18:57.I was there. Not by any newspaper or any other source. But as he said

:18:57. > :19:03.yesterday, in a big organisation, there are likely to be some people

:19:03. > :19:09.that can be corrupted. We must get to the bottom of that. We must look

:19:09. > :19:19.at whether or not inducements in Kalinski prosecutions. We must look

:19:19. > :19:19.

:19:19. > :19:23.at how journalism and the police operate. -- prosecutions. Q What a

:19:23. > :19:29.police minister for a short time but do you feel responsibility for

:19:29. > :19:38.the last inquiry? I do not. We were very clear. When the allegations

:19:38. > :19:40.came forward in 2009, myself and Alan Johnson asked the police

:19:40. > :19:46.commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson and John Yates to look at these

:19:46. > :19:49.allegations. It is their job to look at that. We did not want the

:19:49. > :19:55.Government doing the job of the police. They look at that and

:19:55. > :20:00.reported back to us in two weeks. I reported to the House and it is

:20:00. > :20:04.their job to investigate these allegations. What is clear and John

:20:04. > :20:09.admitted that it was not very good, is that the inquiry should get to

:20:09. > :20:16.the bottom of why it was not very good. People had responsibilities

:20:16. > :20:25.that would not discharged. He said the blame was at the door of News

:20:25. > :20:29.International for not co-operating with the inquiry. Do you agree?

:20:29. > :20:37.Some people say that Rhonda was did not want to co-operate with the

:20:37. > :20:43.police but that should not be a surprise. -- wrong doing. People

:20:43. > :20:47.went to jail on their watch. There is likely to be serious potential

:20:47. > :20:52.charges in the future. It is not surprising they did not want to co-

:20:52. > :20:56.operate. The inquiry must look at the evidence and the actions of the

:20:56. > :21:06.police and News International. If charges must be brought, they

:21:06. > :21:08.

:21:08. > :21:16.should be and that should clear up What do our guests think about

:21:16. > :21:21.that? It is a big story, isn't it? David Cornock said it is changing

:21:21. > :21:28.every hour. We have seen at News International for what they really

:21:28. > :21:33.are. I think that Ed Miliband has been very good in this matter. He

:21:33. > :21:37.has connected with the country and has made all the running. We can

:21:37. > :21:41.connect and we are in touch with people. David Cameron and Nick

:21:41. > :21:46.Clegg are running behind him to catch up. We want to take that

:21:46. > :21:52.forward and we want to stop this thing happening. But your party has

:21:52. > :22:02.been culpable, if that is the right word in the relationship with News

:22:02. > :22:02.

:22:02. > :22:06.International? The Labour Party did that. I did not necessarily agree.

:22:06. > :22:12.I remember the Sun headlines many years before they came forward and

:22:12. > :22:18.supported Tony Blair. But it is the ordinary journalists at News of the

:22:18. > :22:23.World that I feel sorry for. Some people were not responsible. They

:22:23. > :22:28.will be the people suffering. I am glad News of the World is gone. I

:22:28. > :22:34.am sorry it was 168 years but it is not what I would have called a

:22:34. > :22:41.newspaper. But what I do not want is to see that reinstated under a

:22:41. > :22:45.different name. I will be watching this debate today. I think we

:22:45. > :22:53.really have to tighten this up and we must help proper journalists do

:22:53. > :22:59.proper reporting. They must not look at the pass the diocese.

:22:59. > :23:08.you pleased that people seem to have sorted this out? --

:23:08. > :23:11.personalities. In my years as a politician, I have often heard the

:23:11. > :23:19.public interest defence. That people buy the newspapers they want

:23:19. > :23:26.to bite. But actually, people are not happy. It is not acceptable to

:23:26. > :23:32.hack into private medical records. I am sure they say all sorts of

:23:32. > :23:36.things. The basic line is if it is a soldier in Afghanistan, a

:23:36. > :23:42.murdered child, private medical records, we are the society we want

:23:42. > :23:48.to be. If we want to have respect and warmth towards human beings, we

:23:48. > :23:53.have got to start sorting this out. We talk in Westminster and Cardiff

:23:53. > :24:01.about children being the future. How be dispossessed young people

:24:02. > :24:08.will not engage. It is all quite important. Do we want to be a part

:24:08. > :24:12.of this? This is an important part, media and the politicians. It has

:24:12. > :24:16.been a wake up call and the public have woken up. When you look at the

:24:16. > :24:21.newspaper, do you really want to think that newspaper might have got

:24:21. > :24:25.that story under appalling circumstances? We hope we can raise

:24:25. > :24:32.up a little bit and say, this is what we want to be, a little bit

:24:32. > :24:37.better and a different way of life. If just half the alleged stories

:24:37. > :24:45.about News International are correct, what an absolute shambles.

:24:45. > :24:51.Very strong opinions. But you are suggesting that there might be a

:24:51. > :24:57.change in society. I think that is correct. For a long time it has

:24:57. > :25:02.been ways in which certain newspapers have reported. I am glad

:25:02. > :25:08.this has come out into the open. It is not just the Guardian newspaper

:25:08. > :25:14.reporting these things. I think people must look at best. They must

:25:14. > :25:22.take some ownership of these facts. The Sun used to be a working-class

:25:22. > :25:26.paper. But it cannot be classed like that anymore. If people keep

:25:26. > :25:34.buying the newspaper, then that is what they are doing, they are

:25:34. > :25:44.feeding the habit. We will talk about this again later. Marquees

:25:44. > :25:46.

:25:47. > :25:53.You have come right before the legislative programme has been

:25:53. > :25:57.announced. We have got 21 bills. What do you think of it in general?

:25:57. > :26:03.We welcome the fact that we have got a statement. We have got a lot

:26:03. > :26:10.of issues on which we could probably agree. But we need to get

:26:10. > :26:13.more of the details. Then we can say what we can support. But

:26:13. > :26:20.definitely, we have got a lot of issues that are common throughout

:26:20. > :26:27.the Chamber. We have got concerns about issues like transport. We are

:26:27. > :26:32.surprised we did not get more about the economy. Let me ask you that as

:26:32. > :26:37.a former council leader, the plans to make senior officers work for

:26:37. > :26:43.more than one authority. That will be legislated upon later. What do

:26:43. > :26:46.you think of that? What did you think of your leader's difficulties

:26:46. > :26:54.with that? Kirsty Williams seemed to think it was back door

:26:54. > :26:58.reorganisation. What she was trying to question people on was whether

:26:58. > :27:05.it was a reorganisation by the back door or just tinkering at the edges.

:27:05. > :27:10.There are major questions that must be answered about this programme.

:27:10. > :27:17.Local authorities had been working and collaborating for the past

:27:17. > :27:21.three years. There have been major projects that are growing now. It

:27:21. > :27:31.is a mistake to think that you can reorganise the local government

:27:31. > :27:32.

:27:32. > :27:36.just by getting 18 senior officers sharing jobs. But it could have

:27:36. > :27:40.been very controversial. If they did not act when apparently and

:27:40. > :27:45.there were warnings in place, they will warned they needed to work

:27:45. > :27:52.more closely, then people would be accused of activities that would

:27:52. > :27:57.not responded to. I was involved in discussions in Wales with six

:27:57. > :28:03.authorities looking at improving schools services. The reality is

:28:03. > :28:08.that they will be evolution. Many people recognise that the days of

:28:08. > :28:12.having 20 authorities with an independent department providing

:28:12. > :28:18.services across the board is probably not something that can be

:28:18. > :28:27.sustained. We cannot either look at collaboration and efficiencies

:28:27. > :28:31.within the system just by getting fewer chief officers and directors.

:28:31. > :28:37.We would like to ask you about housing. A Housing Bill has been

:28:37. > :28:42.planned and he will be aware of that. Some councils are finding

:28:42. > :28:47.social housing provision difficult. I think we have got a lack of

:28:47. > :28:50.detail here. One of the questions we asked the Government was the

:28:50. > :28:55.issue of empty properties throughout Wales. We have not had

:28:55. > :29:01.much details about sorting that out. We are getting a repetition of

:29:01. > :29:06.ideas in the past 18 months. At this stage, I am willing to give

:29:06. > :29:14.them the benefit of the doubt. But we must find out more about these

:29:14. > :29:19.proposals. Thank you for joining us. But for Prime Minister's Questions,

:29:20. > :29:29.we have got two guests. One supported Aled Roberts and one

:29:29. > :29:33.didn't. Do you stand by your decision? There is just one vote

:29:33. > :29:38.that I would have gone back on it I could have done. I said yes but on

:29:38. > :29:43.the balance of probabilities and on the balance of the report, many

:29:43. > :29:53.things have come up for me to doubt that I made the correct decision. I

:29:53. > :29:54.

:29:54. > :29:59.feel down. Do you feel as strongly as Angela? I think that when people

:29:59. > :30:06.like Angela say that they would have reconsidered, I think that is

:30:06. > :30:11.very important. The electoral commission had stated and it was

:30:11. > :30:19.for hours afterwards that they had not been any activity on the Welsh

:30:19. > :30:29.website. But there is enough doubt now. Nothing exclusive for him to

:30:29. > :30:38.

:30:38. > :30:41.be brought back. We are off to the Mr Speaker, too late voicemail

:30:42. > :30:45.slept for a missing TJ -- teenager. Buying the silence of public

:30:45. > :30:52.figures who would incriminate your business. Publishing competition

:30:52. > :30:58.medical details. -- confidential. I asked the Prime Minister, are any

:30:58. > :31:01.of these the actions of a fit and proper person? My honourable friend

:31:01. > :31:06.makes an extremely powerful point in a powerful way. We have to be

:31:06. > :31:10.clear about what is happening. There is a firestorm that is

:31:10. > :31:16.engulfing parts of the media, parts of the police and indeed, our

:31:16. > :31:23.political system's ability to respond. What we must do is think

:31:23. > :31:27.although all of the victims, like the Dallan family, and make doubly

:31:27. > :31:36.sure that we get to the bottom of what happened. And that we

:31:36. > :31:42.prosecute those who are guilty. Speaker, yesterday I met a family

:31:42. > :31:46.of my leader there, who should incredible bravery in speaking out

:31:46. > :31:50.about what happened to them, attacking and their terrible

:31:50. > :31:55.treatment at the hands of the News of the World. I am sure the whole

:31:55. > :32:00.House will want to pay tribute to their courage and bravery. Does the

:32:00. > :32:03.Prime Minister now agree that it is an insult to the family that

:32:03. > :32:07.Rebekah Brooks, who was the editor of the News of the World at the

:32:07. > :32:11.time, is still in her post at News International? I have made clear

:32:11. > :32:16.she was right to resign, that resignation should have been

:32:16. > :32:22.accepted. There needs to be root- and-branch change at this entire

:32:22. > :32:26.organisation. I think it has now become clear that while everyone to

:32:26. > :32:31.start with wanted in some way to separate what was happening at News

:32:31. > :32:35.International and what is happening with BSkyB, is simply not the

:32:35. > :32:41.possibility. What is happening is disgraceful and it has to be

:32:41. > :32:45.addressed at every level and they should stop thinking about mergers.

:32:45. > :32:49.Mr Speaker, I thank the Prime Minister for that answer, he is

:32:49. > :32:56.right to take opposition and Rebekah Brooks should go. When such

:32:56. > :33:00.a serious cloud hangs over a News Corporation and that the abuses

:33:00. > :33:06.having occurred, does he agree with me that it would be quite wrong for

:33:06. > :33:11.them to expand their stake in the British media, and does he further

:33:11. > :33:15.agree that if the House of Commons speech with one voice today, and I

:33:15. > :33:19.hope people come to this debate, that Rupert Murdoch should drop his

:33:20. > :33:24.bid for BSkyB, should recognise the world has changed and should listen

:33:24. > :33:28.to this House of Commons? I agree with what the honourable gentleman

:33:28. > :33:34.says. It is good the House of Commons is going to speak with one

:33:34. > :33:38.voice. As he knows, the Government has a job to do to act at all times

:33:38. > :33:42.within the law. My right honourable friend the Culture Secretary has to

:33:42. > :33:47.obey every aspect of the lot. Laws that were on the whole put in place

:33:47. > :33:53.by the last Government. And yes, as the honourable member says, we

:33:54. > :34:00.should let - that we should make -- make sure the fit and proper test

:34:00. > :34:05.is right, but I think it is acceptable at the same time to obey

:34:05. > :34:07.the law as a Government but to send a message from this House that this

:34:07. > :34:12.business has to stop the business of mergers and get on with the

:34:13. > :34:16.business of cleaning it stables. look forward to debating these

:34:16. > :34:22.issues with the Leader of the House, there will be speaking to the

:34:22. > :34:25.Government later in the debate. -- who will be speaking. I know he is

:34:25. > :34:29.making a statement about the inquiry. But can he confirm

:34:29. > :34:33.something we agreed last night? We need to make sure we get to the

:34:33. > :34:38.bottom not just of what happened at our newspapers, but also about the

:34:38. > :34:41.relationship between politicians and the press. Does he agree with

:34:41. > :34:47.me that if we expect editors and members of the press to give

:34:48. > :34:51.evidence under oath, so should current and past politicians.

:34:51. > :34:54.agree, first of all on this issue of the debate. We are debating now

:34:55. > :35:00.and that is right. We will have a statement in the House of Commons

:35:00. > :35:05.and Mr Speaker, I will stand here and answer questions from as many

:35:05. > :35:08.members of Parliament as one to ask them. As the Leader of the

:35:08. > :35:11.Opposition said, we had an excellent meeting last night to

:35:12. > :35:15.discuss the nature of the inquiry that needs to take place. We

:35:15. > :35:18.discuss the terms of reference. I sent those terms of reference to

:35:18. > :35:23.his office this morning. We have had some amendments which we will

:35:23. > :35:27.accept. They must will be draft terms of reference and I want to

:35:27. > :35:30.hear what do family of Millie de la and others have to say so we can

:35:30. > :35:33.move in a way to take the whole country with this has we deal with

:35:34. > :35:38.this problem. I also think that if we are going to say to the police,

:35:38. > :35:42.you must be more transparent and cut out corruption, if we say to

:35:42. > :35:45.the media, you must be more transparent and cut out malpractice,

:35:45. > :35:50.the relationship between politicians and the media must

:35:50. > :35:52.change and we must be more transparent as well. About meetings

:35:52. > :35:58.particularly with executives, editors, proprietors and the rest

:35:58. > :36:01.of it. I will be setting out proposals for precisely that.

:36:01. > :36:04.want to thank the Prime Minister for those answers, they are answers

:36:04. > :36:10.the whole country will have wanted to hear. Can I also ask him to

:36:10. > :36:13.clear up one specific issue. It has been confirmed that his chief of

:36:14. > :36:17.staff was given specific information before the general

:36:17. > :36:23.election by the Guardian newspaper. The information shows that whilst

:36:23. > :36:28.he was editing the News of the World, Andy Coulson had hired a man

:36:28. > :36:32.jailed for seven years for a criminal conspiracy and who made

:36:32. > :36:36.payment to police on behalf of the News of the World. Can the Prime

:36:36. > :36:41.Minister tell us what happened to that significant information that

:36:41. > :36:45.was given to his chief of staff? Are like to answer this if I may in

:36:45. > :36:50.full. I do need to get a very full answer. All these questions relate

:36:50. > :36:54.to the fact that I hired a tabloid editor. I did so on the basis of

:36:54. > :36:58.assurances he gave me that he did not know about the phone hacking,

:36:59. > :37:03.was not involved in criminality. He gave the same assurances to the

:37:03. > :37:06.police, to the Select Committee of this House and under oath to a

:37:06. > :37:10.court of law. If it turns out he live, it will not just be that he

:37:10. > :37:14.should not have been in Government but he should be prosecuted. But

:37:14. > :37:20.they do believe that we must stick to the principle that you are

:37:20. > :37:24.innocent until proven guilty. Let me deal directly about the

:37:24. > :37:29.information given to my office by figures from the Guardian newspaper

:37:29. > :37:34.in February last year. This information was not passed to me,

:37:34. > :37:40.but let me be clear, this was not some secret stash of information,

:37:40. > :37:43.almost all of it was published in the Guardian in February 2010 at

:37:43. > :37:47.the same time my office was approached. It contained no

:37:47. > :37:52.allegations directly linking Andy Coulson to the illegal behaviour,

:37:52. > :37:56.it did not shed any further light on the issue of phone hacking, show

:37:56. > :38:00.it was not drawn to my attention by my office. What is more, let me

:38:00. > :38:05.make his point, I met the editor of the Guardian the next month and he

:38:06. > :38:10.did not raise it with me once. I met him regulator and he did not

:38:10. > :38:14.raise it with me then, either. I would ask if this information is so

:38:14. > :38:19.significant, why have I not been asked one question about it at a

:38:19. > :38:24.press conference or in this House? The reason why... The reason why,

:38:24. > :38:30.Mr Speaker, it did not add anything to the assurances that I was given.

:38:30. > :38:34.But let me say once more, if I was like to, if the police were like to,

:38:34. > :38:44.if the Select Committee was like to, it will be a matter of deep regret

:38:44. > :38:51.

:38:51. > :39:01.Order! Anybody might think that orchestrated noise is taking place.

:39:01. > :39:07.Order! Order! These exchanges will continue in an orderly way. Mr Ed

:39:07. > :39:11.Miliband. The Prime Minister has just made an

:39:11. > :39:14.important at Nissan. He has admitted his chief of staff was

:39:14. > :39:20.given information before the general election that Andy Coulson

:39:21. > :39:27.had hired a man jailed for seven years for a criminal conspiracy,

:39:27. > :39:33.who made payments to the police on behalf of the News of the World.

:39:33. > :39:37.This evidence casts serious doubt on Mr Coulson's assurances that the

:39:37. > :39:41.phone hacking over which he resigned was an isolated example of

:39:41. > :39:46.illegal activity. The Prime Minister says the chief of staff

:39:46. > :39:52.did not pass on this very serious information. Can he now tell us

:39:52. > :39:56.what information he proposes to take against his chief of staff?

:39:56. > :40:00.I have given the fullest possible answer I could to the right

:40:00. > :40:10.honourable gentleman. He can stand there and ask questions about Andy

:40:10. > :40:11.

:40:11. > :40:16.Coulson. I can stand here and ask questions about Tom Baldwin. He can

:40:16. > :40:23.ask questions about my private office, and I can ask questions

:40:23. > :40:27.about Damian McBride. But, Mr Speaker, I think the public and the

:40:27. > :40:35.victims of this appalling scandal want us to rise above this and deal

:40:35. > :40:45.with the problems that the country faces. Mr Speaker, he just doesn't

:40:45. > :40:49.

:40:49. > :40:54.get it. He just doesn't get it. I say this to the Prime Minister. He

:40:54. > :41:01.was warned by the Deputy Prime Minister about hiring Andy Coulson.

:41:01. > :41:05.He was warned by Lord Ashdown about hiring Andy Coulson. He has now

:41:05. > :41:09.admitted in the House of Commons today that his chief of staff was

:41:09. > :41:14.given complete evidence which contradicted Andy Coulson's

:41:14. > :41:18.previous account. The Prime Minister must now published the

:41:18. > :41:23.fullest account of all the information that was provided and

:41:23. > :41:28.what he did and why those warnings went unheeded. And he should most

:41:28. > :41:34.of all apologise for the catastrophic error of judgment he

:41:34. > :41:39.made in hiring Andy Coulson. I am afraid, Mr Speaker, the person who

:41:39. > :41:44.is not getting it is now the Leader of the Opposition. What the public

:41:44. > :41:48.want us to do is to address this firestorm. They want us to sort out

:41:48. > :41:52.bad practices at the media, they want us to fix the corruption in

:41:52. > :41:55.the police, they want a proper public inquiry and they are

:41:55. > :42:04.entitled to ask, when these problems went on for so long for so

:42:04. > :42:08.many tears, what was it that happened in the last decade,? Where

:42:08. > :42:12.was the public inquiry over the last ten years? We now have a full

:42:12. > :42:15.on police investigation that will see proper prosecutions and I hope,

:42:15. > :42:19.proper convictions. And we will have a public inquiry run by just

:42:19. > :42:29.to get to the bottom of this issue. That is the leadership I am

:42:29. > :42:37.

:42:37. > :42:42.determined to provide. Order! Order! Order! Order! Order! Order!

:42:43. > :42:47.I say to the Children's Minister, try to calm down and behave like an

:42:48. > :42:57.adult, and if you cannot, if it is beyond you, leave the chamber, get

:42:58. > :43:00.

:43:00. > :43:07.out, we will manage without you. Mr David Ward. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:43:07. > :43:12.This is intolerable behaviour as far... No, it is not funny, only in

:43:12. > :43:19.your mind is it funny. It is not funny at all, it is disgraceful. Mr

:43:19. > :43:23.David Ward. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In one case of the pot calling the

:43:23. > :43:32.kettle black, we just had a pantomime interval for a minute. Is

:43:32. > :43:37.the Prime Minister aware that there are young people in Bradford being

:43:37. > :43:46.quoted �53,000 to insure their first car? These ridiculous

:43:46. > :43:53.premiums are being driven by insurance companies. What are they

:43:53. > :43:57.going to do... My honourable friend makes a good point about the

:43:57. > :44:01.problems of referral fees that are driving up the cost of insurance

:44:01. > :44:04.for many people. The right honourable gentleman the Member for

:44:04. > :44:07.Blackburn has made some powerful points about this. There was a

:44:07. > :44:12.report to the Government calling for the four of these to be banned.

:44:12. > :44:18.I n sympathetic to this and I know the Justice Secretary is as well,

:44:18. > :44:22.we hope to make some progress. -- I am sympathetic. Will the Prime

:44:22. > :44:28.Minister if asked, gave evidence to the judge lead public inquiry that

:44:28. > :44:32.he is setting up today? The point about the inquiry which I will be

:44:32. > :44:35.announcing, it will be judged lead, it will take its powers from the

:44:35. > :44:40.inquiries Act, it will be able to call people under oath and I think

:44:40. > :44:44.this is vital, there are three pillars to this. There is the issue

:44:44. > :44:51.of police corruption, the issue of what happened at the media, and

:44:51. > :44:55.also questions for politicians past, present and future. Thank you, Mr

:44:56. > :45:00.Speaker. My constituents are increasingly concerned about the

:45:00. > :45:06.deepening problems in the euro-zone. Will the Prime Minister reassure me

:45:06. > :45:16.that he is doing everything he can to keep us out of it and to urge

:45:16. > :45:22.We have got to stay out of it. I think membership would take away

:45:22. > :45:26.the flexibility we currently have. But we must remember, 40 % of

:45:26. > :45:33.exports go to countries in the European currency. We must have a

:45:33. > :45:39.proper test for the banks, backed up by capitalisation. We must make

:45:39. > :45:43.the Greek debt burden sustainable. We must reduce excessive deficits.

:45:43. > :45:47.These countries must recognise that they must do more together and

:45:47. > :45:56.faster. They must get ahead of the market, not responding to the next

:45:56. > :46:02.crisis. Lord Ashdown said he warned Number Ten last year of the

:46:02. > :46:10.terrible damage they would suffer if Andy Coulson was appointed. Can

:46:10. > :46:13.he say how precisely he reacted to this warning? The point I made

:46:14. > :46:19.before, the decision to employ a tabloid editor meant a number of

:46:19. > :46:25.people said this was not a good idea. Particularly when that editor

:46:25. > :46:30.had been at News of the World when bad things happened. I accepted the

:46:30. > :46:34.assurances that he gave me. These were given to the police, a Select

:46:34. > :46:39.Committee and to a court. But if we were lied to, that would be a

:46:39. > :46:46.matter of deep regret and I could not be clearer than that. But we

:46:46. > :46:51.must judge people as innocent until proven guilty. This week, I got

:46:51. > :46:55.another e-mail from a constituent with regard to metal and cable. It

:46:55. > :47:00.told me about an elderly lady that had fallen and could not raise the

:47:00. > :47:05.alarm because the cables from her village had been stolen for the

:47:05. > :47:12.second time in two weeks. The legislation relating to this dates

:47:12. > :47:18.back to 1964. Can we have an urgent review to make certain that these

:47:18. > :47:25.dealers are prevented from operating again? I have every

:47:25. > :47:30.sympathy. I had eight case in my constituency when the roof in the

:47:30. > :47:36.local church was stolen. The police put a massive costs on voluntary

:47:36. > :47:38.bodies, churches, charities and businesses. These must not be

:47:38. > :47:48.regarded a second order crimes because they are growing and very

:47:48. > :47:49.

:47:49. > :47:54.worrying. The debate today will be vital. It indicates the House will

:47:54. > :47:59.be united in revulsion at what happens to Milly Dowler's family.

:47:59. > :48:04.But can he make an urgent inquiry as to whether the families of the

:48:04. > :48:09.victims of September 11th were also targeted by News International? If

:48:09. > :48:14.they work, will he raised it with his American counterparts? I will

:48:14. > :48:20.look at that. I will give figures in my statements about how many

:48:20. > :48:25.people were considered to be victims of phone hacking. Stable

:48:25. > :48:30.contact every single one. I met with Sir Paul Stephenson to seek

:48:30. > :48:35.reassurance about the scale of the police operation underway. I have

:48:35. > :48:39.to say what was a mixed appearance by police officers at the Home

:48:39. > :48:43.Affairs Select Committee last night, I thought that the leader of the

:48:43. > :48:46.investigation actually acquitted herself extremely well. We should

:48:47. > :48:56.have confidence in the Metropolitan Police in getting to the bottom of

:48:56. > :49:00.this. Suffolk is already committed to low carbon. We have got offshore

:49:00. > :49:05.windfarms and a recycling rate of more than 60 %. He is welcome to

:49:05. > :49:12.visit but will he give backing to our ambition to enhance a training

:49:12. > :49:21.and give local job opportunities? She makes a very good point and I

:49:21. > :49:27.congratulate her on rebranding Suffolk. It is similar to what my

:49:27. > :49:32.honourable friend said about nuclear energy. We must encourage

:49:32. > :49:35.inward investment and demonstrate we can build up the scale said.

:49:35. > :49:41.That is where local enterprise partnerships can play a valuable

:49:41. > :49:48.part. Can he tell the House would 80 had any conversations about

:49:48. > :49:57.phone hacking with Andy Coulson at the time of his resignation? Will

:49:57. > :50:06.he plays a lot of any meetings and phone calls in the library? As I

:50:06. > :50:12.said before perhaps their question was written... Of course I short

:50:12. > :50:17.assurances and I received assurances. They were not just

:50:17. > :50:25.given at the time to me but also given subsequently to the Select

:50:25. > :50:29.Committee and to a criminal case. But let me say again to avoid any

:50:29. > :50:33.doubt, if these assurances turned out not to be correct, it is not

:50:33. > :50:42.just that he should not have worked in government, but he should face

:50:42. > :50:48.prosecution. Can I raise with the Prime Minister a different case of

:50:48. > :50:54.phone hacking? -- hacking? He has the legal process to follow

:50:54. > :51:00.computer hacking. Does he share the feeling of my constituents that one

:51:00. > :51:04.man is hanging by a thread waiting to be cut by a judicial review?

:51:04. > :51:10.recognise the seriousness of this case and the Deputy Prime Minister

:51:10. > :51:14.and myself raised bat with President Obama. Everybody

:51:14. > :51:19.understands it is a very serious offence. You can understand why the

:51:19. > :51:23.Americans feel strongly about it. The case is in front of the Home

:51:23. > :51:28.Secretary. She must consider reports about his health and well-

:51:28. > :51:38.being. She must do that properly, it effectively Ind in a judicial

:51:38. > :51:38.

:51:38. > :51:43.way. -- and in a judicial way. have had a decimation of the police

:51:43. > :51:49.service and a withdrawal of legal aid. Can I ask him to just by the

:51:49. > :51:58.following... The servicemen from Northern Ireland asked for a non-

:51:58. > :52:05.urgent pair of boots, �45. They were dispatched by private courier

:52:05. > :52:12.to Northern Ireland at a cost of �714. Is it not time he got a grip

:52:12. > :52:19.of this? I understand former ministers wanted to hear the rattle

:52:19. > :52:24.of every bed-bound. Maybe I should see every military order. One of

:52:24. > :52:29.the things we are trying to do is recognise that there is a lot of

:52:29. > :52:33.cost in terms of back office and logistics. We want to make that

:52:33. > :52:41.more efficient and spend more money on the front line. It is a good

:52:41. > :52:45.example and I will check it out and see if we can save money. Can he

:52:45. > :52:49.assured the House that all press activity under the last government

:52:49. > :52:54.will be investigated? Will this includes the criminal conspiracy

:52:54. > :52:59.between the highest levels of that last government, with parts of the

:52:59. > :53:08.Rupert Murdoch empire, including looking at private bank accounts in

:53:08. > :53:11.an attempt to undermine Lord Ashcroft and his position?

:53:11. > :53:15.point about the inquiry which we will shortly discuss is that it

:53:16. > :53:23.will look at the relationship between politicians and the media

:53:23. > :53:28.with the issue of media policy. This is very important. His inquiry

:53:28. > :53:33.will have the ability to caught serving politicians, previous prime

:53:33. > :53:40.ministers to get to the bottom of how this happened and how unhealthy

:53:40. > :53:46.this relationship was. On Monday, the Ministry of Defence told the

:53:46. > :53:49.Public Accounts Committee that the Prime Minister blocked a National

:53:49. > :53:56.Audit Office from accessing relevant national security council

:53:56. > :53:59.documents. They considered be is essential to assess whether the

:53:59. > :54:06.decisions on the be aircraft carrier and the defence review

:54:06. > :54:11.represent value for money. That refusal is unprecedented. In the

:54:11. > :54:18.interests of transparency and accountability, will the Prime

:54:18. > :54:23.Minister agree to immediately release the information? The short

:54:23. > :54:26.answer is that we were following a precedent. The long answer is it

:54:26. > :54:30.she wants be to come to that committee and explain what an

:54:30. > :54:37.appalling set of decisions the previous government made on

:54:37. > :54:41.aircraft carriers, the delay alone by the Government she worked for

:54:41. > :54:45.added 1.6 billion to the cost of the aircraft carriers. If she wants

:54:45. > :54:49.me to turn up and talk about what we discussed in Cabinet and lay out

:54:49. > :54:58.the full detail of the ways to a government was responsible for,

:54:59. > :55:08.name the day! Following a Prime Minister's question from 3rd May

:55:09. > :55:09.

:55:09. > :55:16.years ago, pilot schemes were set up to support debt parents and

:55:16. > :55:19.children in Devon and Merseyside. - - hard of hearing. Will he meet a

:55:19. > :55:25.representative to discuss how his support can be extended to all

:55:25. > :55:28.children and parents across the United Kingdom? He makes a very

:55:28. > :55:34.good point and we do a lot to support different languages,

:55:34. > :55:39.including signing. It is very important for many people in the

:55:39. > :55:45.country are. I look at what the last Prime Minister said. I will

:55:45. > :55:53.arrange a meeting for him to see how we can take his board.

:55:53. > :56:01.question to be Prime Minister and turns the Thameslink rail programme.

:56:01. > :56:07.-- concerns. With manufacturing jobs at risk, can he confirm that

:56:07. > :56:12.contracts have not yet been signed? And indeed it cannot be signed

:56:12. > :56:18.until the funding package has been determined? It is a complicated

:56:18. > :56:28.process. This is the heart of the questioned. Given that the funding

:56:28. > :56:31.

:56:31. > :56:41.package... Jobs are at stake, Mr Speaker. Given that jobs are at

:56:41. > :56:43.

:56:43. > :56:48.risk, will a look at holding... think we have got it. He cares

:56:48. > :56:53.deeply about this issue. It is a great company with a great future

:56:54. > :56:58.and we want it to be successful. But the procurement process was

:56:58. > :57:01.designed and initiated by the previous government. We were bound

:57:01. > :57:07.by their criteria and we must continue with the decision that has

:57:07. > :57:11.been made accordingly. But we are looking at all the regulations to

:57:11. > :57:18.see if we can change and make better for the teacher these kinds

:57:18. > :57:24.of issues. Will he join me in calling for the electrification of

:57:24. > :57:32.the Chester railway line? It will provide a boost him this area and

:57:32. > :57:36.the wider area. I am aware of this campaign. I spent a lot a time at

:57:37. > :57:43.that station in the previous parliament. I was often accompanied

:57:43. > :57:47.by people in top hats and tails. My colleagues will remember that. It

:57:47. > :57:57.is not in the current programme but we will look at that sympathetic

:57:57. > :57:58.

:57:58. > :58:04.way. -- in a sympathetic way. said university tuition fees would

:58:04. > :58:13.average �7,500. They actually average 8000 �400. How can they be

:58:13. > :58:19.-- more than �8,000. How can that be right? There are just nine

:58:19. > :58:24.universities charging �9,000 for every student. If it yet

:58:24. > :58:30.universities will not charge �9,000 for any cause is, that is better.

:58:30. > :58:37.Many of them are charging less than �6,000. But university degrees have

:58:37. > :58:43.not suddenly started costing �9,000. They have always costed that. Do

:58:43. > :58:47.you ask the graduate to pay? Successful graduates or do you ask

:58:47. > :58:52.the taxpayer? The money does not grow on trees. We have made our

:58:52. > :58:59.choice. The party that introduced tuition fees should come up with

:58:59. > :59:02.its answer. With the turmoil of other European economies caused by

:59:02. > :59:08.the European currency, is it not essential this country should

:59:08. > :59:16.continue to reduce debts and stay clear of any future bail-out,

:59:16. > :59:18.despite advice from the benches opposite? It is not just the

:59:18. > :59:24.restrictions of the European currency but the unsustainable

:59:24. > :59:29.levels of debt. We are not in the currency but we have got to deal

:59:29. > :59:33.with our debt. But we have got the opportunity to be a safe haven.

:59:34. > :59:37.Market interest rates could actually come down because of the

:59:37. > :59:41.Act should this government is taking. We must recognise the

:59:41. > :59:44.European currency is sorting out its problems and that is in our

:59:44. > :59:54.interest. We must be helpful and constructive with the work that

:59:54. > :59:58.Last week I was approached regarding a debt management company

:59:58. > :00:04.which advised people to take out a loan to pay off debts. The company

:00:04. > :00:07.went out of business, taking the rest of my constituent's money. I

:00:07. > :00:12.have many other examples of this, self-regulation is simply not

:00:13. > :00:17.working. Will the Prime Minister look urgently at regulation in the

:00:17. > :00:27.sector and provide resources so that Honourable people are not

:00:27. > :00:28.

:00:28. > :00:31.continuing to be ripped off - man vulnerable people? I know that she

:00:31. > :00:36.managed as citizens advice bureau herself so has seen people coming

:00:36. > :00:41.in with debt problems. I would say Citizens' Advice is the finest

:00:41. > :00:43.organisation in this country for helping people with debt. I will

:00:43. > :00:47.certainly there could the suggesting she makes. What we can

:00:47. > :00:55.do to help support citizens advice bureau, at what is a difficult time,

:00:55. > :01:02.and also looking at the issue of credit unions and their expansion.

:01:02. > :01:08.The whole House will share the out rage about the publication of

:01:08. > :01:12.private medical information relating to Gordon Brown's child.

:01:12. > :01:18.He said that when he was Prime Minister he also tried to set up a

:01:18. > :01:25.judicial inquiry into phone hacking. I do have every sympathy with my

:01:25. > :01:29.predecessor, particularly over the issue of the gliding of his details

:01:29. > :01:34.by a newspaper. In public life, we are all subject to huge amounts of

:01:34. > :01:39.scrutiny, but it is not fair when laws are broken. We have all

:01:39. > :01:42.suffered from this and we have all been to silent about it. Your bins

:01:42. > :01:46.are gone through by some media organisation but you hold back from

:01:46. > :01:50.dealing with it because you want good relations from the media. We

:01:50. > :01:57.need honesty about this issue on a cross-party basis so we can take on

:01:57. > :02:01.this problem. I am determined that the one we set up, the inquiry,

:02:01. > :02:08.with the support of the honourable gentleman, will get the job done.

:02:08. > :02:14.Mr Speaker, the report an international children's games will

:02:14. > :02:17.come to manager at the start of August. 1512-15-year-olds will

:02:17. > :02:24.participate in sports. Will the Prime Minister congratulate two

:02:24. > :02:28.Labour local authorities for their foresight in hosting the Games, and

:02:28. > :02:32.will he send a representative of the Government to the event?

:02:32. > :02:41.certainly congratulate the two local authorities. There are too

:02:41. > :02:46.many Conservative local authorities -- to few, but I can congratulate

:02:46. > :02:50.in Scotland. I wish him the best of luck. Will confirm that all

:02:50. > :02:55.witnesses to all aspects of the inquiry will be required to give

:02:55. > :03:00.evidence under oath? As I will explain in a minute, it will be one

:03:00. > :03:02.inquiry would to back parts. But led by Judge and that judge will be

:03:03. > :03:06.the one will eventually agree the terms of reference, set out the way

:03:06. > :03:11.it is going to work, and be responsible for calling people

:03:11. > :03:16.under if. Statement, the Prime Minister.

:03:17. > :03:20.We finished their, that is the end of Question Time. -- we finished

:03:20. > :03:27.there. He is about to update on the details of the phone hacking

:03:28. > :03:32.inquiry. We now go back to Cardiff. We will reflect on Prime Minister's

:03:32. > :03:36.Questions, which was dominated by phone hacking. I think it is fairly

:03:36. > :03:40.easy to say that. One point I would like to raise with you from a

:03:40. > :03:44.Labour perspective, we heard earlier that Ed Miliband had met

:03:44. > :03:48.with the Prime Minister last night, and they were going to vote

:03:48. > :03:51.together later on Higgins report murdered's takeover, I thought it

:03:52. > :03:56.was all that he was really gunning for the Prime Minister during

:03:56. > :04:00.premises questions. I think Ed Miliband was put in the case for

:04:00. > :04:04.with, he has caught the mood of the public early on. He has almost

:04:04. > :04:07.dried David Cameron to this decision. We were not party to what

:04:07. > :04:12.they talked about last night, but it was obvious yesterday that David

:04:12. > :04:17.Cameron's mind was elsewhere when he was talking to us in the Senedd.

:04:17. > :04:25.You can see from his body language at it has taken its toll on him. I

:04:25. > :04:30.think Ed Miliband is right to keep pushing the questions. I do not

:04:30. > :04:34.seek their agreement as a reason to take your foot off the pedal. Prime

:04:34. > :04:40.Minister's questions are scrutiny of the Prime Minister. Spoken like

:04:40. > :04:45.a true politician! Angela, David Cameron was facing some pretty

:04:45. > :04:49.tough questions there about Andy Coulson. Within a couple of minutes,

:04:49. > :04:53.he appeared to distance himself from Andy Coulson, then defend him

:04:53. > :04:58.when he said, he is innocent until proven guilty. What do you make of

:04:58. > :05:04.the predicament the Prime Minister is in? I am not sure if he is in

:05:04. > :05:07.one, but the point he is making clearly that when he took Andy

:05:08. > :05:11.Coulson on as his director of strategy, he had done everything he

:05:11. > :05:15.would normally expect an employer to do. He received assurances,

:05:15. > :05:20.talked to the police, talked to a number of organisation, and

:05:20. > :05:25.everything came up absolutely clean. So he says on the one hand, there

:05:25. > :05:28.has not been a shred of evidence that Andy Coulson knew anything of

:05:28. > :05:33.this, there Forest and by my decision to employ him, and I stand

:05:33. > :05:39.by him. But he was also saying, however, if it turns out he lied,

:05:39. > :05:45.if it turns out he misled people, he has got to face prosecution,

:05:45. > :05:49.because nobody should be above the law. I support that. I suppose we

:05:49. > :05:55.are getting ahead of ourselves now, if any prosecution was brought on

:05:55. > :05:59.Andy Coulson and he was found guilty, what with that say about

:05:59. > :06:05.the Prime Minister's judgment? We're talking about a scenario that

:06:05. > :06:09.has not happen and is nowhere near on the cards. I was in business for

:06:09. > :06:13.25 years and you hire someone and you go through their CV, check the

:06:13. > :06:18.references, you get on well with them, then something will come out

:06:18. > :06:26.from the past and it is this whole thing about do you give people a

:06:26. > :06:30.second chance, do you move on? If you take a Draconian view that you

:06:30. > :06:35.cannot move for, people who go to jail and come out and reform the

:06:35. > :06:39.lies, they will never get a second chance. The whole thing is very

:06:39. > :06:43.difficult and I think you can never be absolutely treat yourself -- the

:06:43. > :06:47.only thing he can do is be true to yourself. As long as you know that

:06:47. > :06:53.you make the decisions on the best possible evidence, you try and move

:06:53. > :07:02.forward. He could end up kicking himself, a bit like the Boat I took

:07:02. > :07:10.last week. Tom Watson, who has led the campaign, he mentioned he

:07:10. > :07:14.wanted the Prime Minister to investigate whether the victims of

:07:14. > :07:20.9/11's phones had been had. This is pretty serious for Rupert Murdoch

:07:20. > :07:25.and his empire. He makes ten times as much money from the US as he

:07:25. > :07:29.does in the UK. I think Tom Watson is right to do that. It has

:07:29. > :07:33.unravelled. First of all, John Prescott was on about his on been

:07:33. > :07:38.hacked and people just thought it was John Prescott. Then we get to

:07:39. > :07:44.this awful situation whereby families have been hacked. And

:07:44. > :07:48.their children have died in some horrible situation. It goes the

:07:48. > :07:56.same for those out in Afghanistan. Tom Watson is right to say, how

:07:56. > :08:02.much further back do we go two was Murdoch part and parcel of that

:08:02. > :08:07.hacking of the victims of 9/11? I think people are very angry and I

:08:07. > :08:11.think Murdoch will have to take the brunt of that. And you for the time

:08:11. > :08:16.being. Coming up, should smoking be banned in cars with children as

:08:16. > :08:19.passengers? Yesterday, the Prime Minister told

:08:19. > :08:23.AMs that an inquiry into the way Wales' was funded by the UK

:08:23. > :08:26.Government would be carried out. Yet it would be that out commission

:08:26. > :08:30.similar to the so called Calman Commission in Scotland would

:08:30. > :08:36.examine and New funding mechanism for the Assembly. Our correspondent

:08:36. > :08:40.David Cornock has been getting the views of two MPs, let us go there

:08:40. > :08:46.now. I cut of their huge damp squib, to

:08:47. > :08:50.be honest. We have clear commitment that there would be a boss

:08:50. > :08:54.Parliament, there has been improvements since then, and

:08:54. > :09:01.yesterday there were two sentences in the Prime Minister's statement

:09:01. > :09:06.on the Welsh issue. I do not think yesterday was a damp squib. �56

:09:06. > :09:10.million of investment for broadband was announced. That is 10% of the

:09:10. > :09:14.UK's budget coming to Wales, which shows the grace settlement Wales

:09:14. > :09:17.will get. But it was only a week or so that the First Minister and the

:09:17. > :09:21.Chancellor met. You will not get all the details and all of the

:09:21. > :09:27.terms of reference from a week ago. Let us be realistic and accept that

:09:27. > :09:30.there is a will to resolve it on both sides, both in Cardiff Bay and

:09:30. > :09:33.as the -- in Westminster and by a optimistic that there will be

:09:33. > :09:37.announcements that will resolve these issues. But we were told to

:09:37. > :09:41.expect those detailed by the summer recess, which starts next Tuesday.

:09:41. > :09:45.I am not tied up by that time table, I want to make sure we get it right.

:09:45. > :09:49.We can look to policies in the past that have been done, rushed through,

:09:49. > :09:52.that have not ended up with the right conclusion. If you look to

:09:52. > :09:56.the Calman Commission in Scotland, there are lessons to be there and

:09:56. > :10:01.there, because it looks unlikely able use their varying powers on

:10:01. > :10:04.the basis they are so tight to income tax. So we need to learn the

:10:04. > :10:09.lessons from what went right and what went wrong in Scotland and let

:10:09. > :10:13.us get it right for Wales. Jonathan Edwards, what do you want to hear

:10:13. > :10:18.from the duty Government about this commissioned? I would like to see

:10:18. > :10:22.the Welsh Government following a similar vein as the Scottish, that

:10:22. > :10:25.has opened up the constitutional settlement. And would be very

:10:25. > :10:29.disappointed that if the terms of reference concentrated just on the

:10:29. > :10:35.financing of the Welsh Government. We have already had a lot of

:10:35. > :10:38.detailed work about the Commission done by the last of Government. It

:10:38. > :10:45.seems to be Commission - me consensus amongst the four Welsh

:10:45. > :10:48.parties. So it seems to me a lot of the work on finance has already

:10:48. > :10:55.been done. We need to revisit the whole settlement and look at a

:10:55. > :11:01.whole range of issues. You would include election of assembly

:11:01. > :11:08.members in that as well? This is the obvious place to do. We will

:11:08. > :11:16.have a Government of Wales was Secretary of State has indicated to

:11:16. > :11:20.me. But as you the differences that exist. That is why this issue has

:11:20. > :11:24.not been rushed through. Plaid Cymru are pushing the boundaries of

:11:24. > :11:27.the settlement. Let us not forget where we are. It has not forget we

:11:27. > :11:31.have just had a referendum were people decisively showed they

:11:31. > :11:36.wanted the Assembly to have for the powers. Those powers have been

:11:36. > :11:39.granted so let us work within the settlement. Those very politicians

:11:39. > :11:43.campaigning for a yes vote at that time was saying, yes, this will

:11:44. > :11:47.give us the powers to resolve those issues. If we look at the ledges

:11:47. > :11:50.that it statement backing from the wells Government yesterday, that

:11:50. > :11:55.was read in the first instance so let us see what they're doing with

:11:55. > :12:00.what they have got. -- the legislative statement. Pushing the

:12:00. > :12:07.boundaries? To make things have changed since the result of the

:12:07. > :12:15.referendum. The battering ram of the campaigning in Scotland.

:12:15. > :12:18.Following the elections, the was partial parity the Scotsman. That

:12:18. > :12:24.message went down very well in Carmarthenshire. We have a huge

:12:24. > :12:28.respect for the SNP in Scotland. They have tax varying powers, be do

:12:28. > :12:34.not have it in Wells. Surely there would have to be another

:12:34. > :12:39.referendum? - back in Wales. That is what we need to investigate

:12:39. > :12:44.these issues. That is precisely the point, there needs to be consensus.

:12:44. > :12:48.That consensus is have all been. But the consensus evolves, it does

:12:48. > :12:58.not happen overnight. When Plaid Cymru and other politicians are

:12:58. > :12:58.

:12:58. > :13:01.pushing the boundaries all the time, it is quite unhelpful. We should

:13:01. > :13:07.not be thrown off in different directions because of any breakdown

:13:07. > :13:09.in views. Will it Calman style commission expose what we really

:13:09. > :13:18.want, which is two things, independence from the UK and more

:13:18. > :13:23.money? What we must remember is the Scottish process was a stitch-up of

:13:23. > :13:32.the Prix Unionists parties in Scotland. -- that unionist parties

:13:32. > :13:39.has gone. Clearly, we want to take part in the process as much as

:13:39. > :13:46.possible. As well as a referendum, let us remember the outcome of the

:13:47. > :13:51.referendum. That you of Plaid Cymru and the demands for this, star

:13:51. > :13:54.commission, they were pretty much rejected by the world population

:13:54. > :13:57.and this demonstrates the inconsistency. Since that election,

:13:57. > :14:05.they are pushing even further which a suspect would be even less

:14:05. > :14:09.popular. There is a problem in that you are focused on constitutional

:14:09. > :14:13.reform, it does not play very well with the electorate. The Lib Dems

:14:13. > :14:20.could tell you that. Opinion polls are clear that the people of Wales

:14:20. > :14:24.want further devolution, criminal justice, policing. The reality is,

:14:24. > :14:29.we want these levers, because without them, we cannot get to

:14:29. > :14:33.grips the enormous economic and social problems in Wales. There has

:14:33. > :14:37.been a huge constitutional change within a very short space of time.

:14:37. > :14:41.Let us be realistic, that is be consensual and ensure everyone is

:14:41. > :14:45.on board. Plaid Cymru are being wholly unreasonable. Consensus

:14:45. > :14:53.still seems a little way off, but gentlemen, thank you very much

:14:54. > :15:01.The Government is investigating the possibility of banning people from

:15:01. > :15:06.smoking in cars when children are on board. Here is our correspondent.

:15:06. > :15:13.Your government is keen to look at it issue. What is the problem and

:15:13. > :15:17.what are you doing about it? Many children can get respiratory

:15:17. > :15:25.infections and we are concerned about that. It is a confined place.

:15:25. > :15:31.When the cigarette is put out, the pollution remains. What would you

:15:31. > :15:36.like to do to change that? Will you legislate? Not initially. We will

:15:36. > :15:41.have public awareness campaigns and education campaigns. We will carry

:15:41. > :15:46.on with the stop smoking campaign to prevent people from smoking in

:15:46. > :15:53.the first instance but we can look at legislation later. Would you

:15:53. > :15:57.make it illegal to smoke when you have a child in the car? I think

:15:57. > :16:01.initially looking at banning smoking when there are children in

:16:01. > :16:06.the car but that is something we can look at in the future. Some

:16:06. > :16:11.people might have concerns about the nanny state aspect. Many people

:16:11. > :16:16.disagree about smoking in cars and many people would not think that is

:16:16. > :16:21.a good idea. They might be concerned about state intrusion.

:16:21. > :16:27.How do you reassure them? understand that. People said that

:16:27. > :16:32.about seatbelts. But we banned smoking in public places and this

:16:32. > :16:37.is the next logical step. I am a big supporter of preventative

:16:37. > :16:42.healthcare and I think this is the next step. Would you eventually ban

:16:42. > :16:46.people smoking at home with children in the House? That would

:16:46. > :16:51.be very difficult to introduce. That is part of the public

:16:51. > :16:56.awareness campaign. People should be encouraged to stop smoking in

:16:56. > :16:59.the first place. Already on the horizon is the Government saying

:16:59. > :17:05.they want to change legislation on organ donation. What are you doing

:17:06. > :17:11.there? We think we should make certain that more organs are

:17:11. > :17:15.available for transplants. We have got National transplant Week and we

:17:15. > :17:20.understand one person in every seven days in Wales dies waiting

:17:20. > :17:25.for a transplant. We want more to be available. We will pursue

:17:26. > :17:30.legislation. We will introduce a white paper in the autumn.

:17:30. > :17:34.would introduce a presumed consent system? You would presume somebody

:17:34. > :17:39.would consent to having organs donated unless they say that they

:17:39. > :17:45.do not. Families would be able to have their views heard about this

:17:45. > :17:49.after the death of a relative. it comes to that and who believe it

:17:49. > :17:55.would not, if they use a disagreement and somebody has

:17:55. > :18:01.passed away and it is presumed that they did consent but the family

:18:01. > :18:08.disagrees, the family would have the final say. Absolutely. But we

:18:08. > :18:13.would talk to them about their wishes. We need a public

:18:13. > :18:17.information campaign about this so that people are crossed the issues.

:18:17. > :18:24.They will be a big consultation process which will start with the

:18:24. > :18:34.white paper in the autumn. Mark talking to the health minister. We

:18:34. > :18:40.can consult the saver! You were raising lots of questions. You do

:18:41. > :18:44.not think this is a good idea. not. I have got young children and

:18:44. > :18:51.I approve of making certain that children are not subject to pass

:18:51. > :18:56.its making. But there are all sorts of problems. Nanny state. Where

:18:56. > :19:02.does it stop and how can we enforce this? Can we tied a police up on

:19:02. > :19:07.this kind of thing because they can see a car with children in the back

:19:07. > :19:10.and the mother or father smoking? What about the right of the

:19:10. > :19:17.individual and individual responsibility? You saw me spiking

:19:17. > :19:23.but it was not a child in the car, it was my friend who happens to be

:19:23. > :19:29.a bit short. Smoking is bad and you should not be smoking in a car

:19:29. > :19:34.because it might be dangerous for concentration, that is the argument.

:19:34. > :19:44.That is an argument to be had and discussed. What is a child? Are we

:19:44. > :19:45.

:19:45. > :19:55.talking about under the age of 10, 14, 16, 18? Can you stop at car?

:19:55. > :19:58.Plenty of questions! I am looking at a government press release. It

:19:59. > :20:03.said that a ban could be considered. Is this essentially a final

:20:03. > :20:12.warning? They will be an information campaign. Our people

:20:12. > :20:16.say, sort it out among yourselves? I think the health warnings are

:20:16. > :20:23.there and we all understand about that. We understand the need to

:20:23. > :20:28.protect children. But I agree with Angela on a lot of issues. How can

:20:28. > :20:32.it be policed? I take that very seriously. I took the sprinkler

:20:32. > :20:39.measures seriously. People could say that is a nanny state

:20:39. > :20:47.intervention but the state can intervene on some issues. But

:20:47. > :20:52.sometimes, like human rights, some issues can be confused. I would

:20:52. > :20:56.like to see that extended. I think we have to be careful on what

:20:56. > :21:03.legislation is proposed and introduced. It is the fast time we

:21:03. > :21:06.have had full legislative power. I am not sure how it can be policed.

:21:06. > :21:12.We might have police officers having to stop cars and deciding

:21:12. > :21:20.whether or not a child is at the correct age. This has not been

:21:20. > :21:29.thought through. His criticism has been levelled against Labour. Some

:21:29. > :21:38.people want a politician -- policy that grabs the headlines. Is it

:21:38. > :21:44.headline-grabbing? I hope it is not done for that reason. Wales is the

:21:44. > :21:49.third-country to make sprinklers an essential part of domestic home

:21:49. > :21:55.products. But we must be careful about how we make that different.

:21:55. > :22:01.We have got lots of issues about people stopping people in cars.

:22:01. > :22:10.Canny use making a car if you have not got children? -- cannot use

:22:10. > :22:14.smoke in a car? -- can you be smoking in a car? We have heard

:22:14. > :22:21.from all the parties in the Assembly apart from one. We are

:22:21. > :22:28.with Plaid Cymru. It is time for the case of Plaid Cymru. The

:22:28. > :22:33.legislative programme, what are the doubts? Was it worth the wait?

:22:33. > :22:36.will have to wait and see. The devil is in the detail. At least we

:22:36. > :22:41.had something we can scrutinise the Government against and judge

:22:41. > :22:51.against delivery. There are some areas but I think we'll get proper

:22:51. > :22:56.consensus. The proposals are genuinely very positive. I would be

:22:56. > :23:01.happy to support many of the central areas. Some things will not

:23:01. > :23:06.be contentious and people will be happy to offer support. The areas I

:23:06. > :23:12.look at included planning, which used a key area. We wanted that

:23:12. > :23:17.wholesale reform. It looks like the Government is looking at actually

:23:17. > :23:22.consolidating existing legislation. Are you disappointed about that?

:23:22. > :23:27.Slightly but we will have to point out what they mean by that. In the

:23:27. > :23:31.meantime, plans are being adopted across Wales with wholly

:23:31. > :23:39.inappropriate planning proposals in some respects. It could be too late

:23:39. > :23:44.by the time his Bill becomes reality. The Environment Bill is

:23:44. > :23:49.something I would broadly support. But the detail is really not

:23:49. > :23:53.therefore asked to make that informed decision. You can imagine

:23:53. > :23:59.there being things around improving and protecting the environment and

:23:59. > :24:05.that would be very popular. But I have got to be concerns. We will

:24:05. > :24:10.have to wait and see. We have got 21 bills coming along. It will be a

:24:10. > :24:17.busy time in the next few weeks. We will support if we have got common

:24:17. > :24:22.ground but as opposition, we will robustly present arguments. That is

:24:22. > :24:27.significant even in things that appear not to be controversial. The

:24:27. > :24:32.allotments, for example. We have already got a legal basis for

:24:32. > :24:42.people to recede allotments but it is not enforced and people end up

:24:42. > :24:46.

:24:46. > :24:51.waiting for years. -- recede. Will that be significant? --. -- get.

:24:51. > :24:54.will have to find out what the Government has got in mind. But in

:24:54. > :24:59.principle, making these things more available, that is something that

:24:59. > :25:06.would be good. Education is important as well. We have got

:25:06. > :25:10.legislation covering issues such as schools, teaching, university and

:25:10. > :25:16.even the assessment of special- needs children. We were

:25:16. > :25:22.particularly looking for how funding is provided for schools as

:25:22. > :25:26.well. We would like to introduce that. Clearly it is a priority for

:25:26. > :25:31.this government and we have been very clear about that. It is one of

:25:31. > :25:36.the bills that will be looked out immediately. We welcome that sense

:25:36. > :25:40.of urgency. But we need to find out what they have got in mind. They

:25:40. > :25:50.must improve standards and league tables and that is something we are

:25:50. > :25:51.

:25:51. > :25:54.concerned about. Many questions yet Before we depart, I would just

:25:54. > :26:03.mentioned that we saw David Cameron making a statement after Prime

:26:03. > :26:12.Minister's Questions. The inquiry will be led by this man. He is one

:26:12. > :26:16.of the senior judges. He will work at that later in the summer. We

:26:17. > :26:22.have got one more day in the Assembly after today and it will be

:26:22. > :26:27.your first committee as chair. share of local government and

:26:27. > :26:32.equalities. We are looking at a work programme and we are looking

:26:32. > :26:37.at legislation announced yesterday. People will report to my committee

:26:37. > :26:44.and we will have legislation to look at. And under the new

:26:44. > :26:50.structure, we saw what was happening. It is apparently

:26:50. > :26:56.changing. It will mean that you are locked in all day. It will be a day

:26:56. > :27:02.and a harp spread over two weeks. This is partly to accommodate

:27:02. > :27:09.legislation which is very important. My real concern which I have been

:27:09. > :27:13.banging on about is that we must never lose the type of scrutiny. It

:27:13. > :27:17.is the committee structure that is risking losing scrutiny in key

:27:17. > :27:22.legislation. It does not matter what the Government of the day

:27:22. > :27:27.years. Part of the reason we were elected is to represent Wales and

:27:27. > :27:34.conduct a scrutiny. I am worried scrutiny will be drowned by

:27:34. > :27:37.legislation. You do not want to be saying this because it will not go

:27:37. > :27:42.down well with the public but should we have more Assembly

:27:43. > :27:49.members to do more scrutiny? must look at what legislation will

:27:50. > :27:53.bring. We are into an unknown area. When I took legislation through as

:27:53. > :27:58.a backbencher, I did not have an army of civil servants and

:27:58. > :28:07.government officials. But I remember how much time I spent on a

:28:07. > :28:12.piece of legislation. I share Angela's concerns about scrutiny.

:28:12. > :28:17.Nobody scrutinises on their aim and that is correct. It will have to

:28:17. > :28:20.fit the timetable and we must have legislation. We must scrutinised

:28:21. > :28:29.policies. Whether we have more members, that is for somebody else

:28:29. > :28:35.to decide. We would have a vested interest, I suppose. At the end of

:28:35. > :28:40.the day, he has decreed that and perhaps it will happened. We have

:28:40. > :28:44.to remember and I think the public must make a decision about what

:28:44. > :28:51.legislator they want in Cardiff Bay. If we want a strong parliament, we