0:00:20 > 0:00:23Good morning, welcome to am.pm. We have got smacking and jousting for
0:00:23 > 0:00:28you this morning. It is the day when Assembly Members will vote on
0:00:28 > 0:00:32a change to the law which could see a ban on parents smacking their
0:00:32 > 0:00:36children in Wales. And also Prime Minister's Questions for the weekly
0:00:36 > 0:00:40joust between David Cameron and Ed Miliband. And I will be looking at
0:00:40 > 0:00:50the future of broadcasting here in Wales and it is team photo day for
0:00:50 > 0:00:55
0:00:55 > 0:00:59Joining the track today's programme as usual, two Assembly Members,
0:00:59 > 0:01:04Eluned Parrott from the Welsh Liberal Democrats and Nick Ramsay.
0:01:04 > 0:01:10I have made reference to an attempt that AMs will make to ban smacking
0:01:10 > 0:01:16of children later in the Assembly. Let's get your views on how it will
0:01:16 > 0:01:21go. To be honest, I have not made a decision yet. I want to listen to
0:01:21 > 0:01:29the arguments put forward because I think this is such a difficult area.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33Two considerations, one of which is obviously try to make sure we are
0:01:33 > 0:01:38protecting children that I have a concern at the moment, whether it
0:01:38 > 0:01:43is this particular mechanism, removing the defence of lawful
0:01:43 > 0:01:47chastisement in a prosecution for assault, whether that actually
0:01:47 > 0:01:52effectively would ban smacking or whether it would move the decision
0:01:52 > 0:01:59whether a smack was a salt to the court, where it could be considered
0:01:59 > 0:02:02by the justice system or would removing that defence, would it
0:02:02 > 0:02:06moved to the Crown Prosecution Service and the police? Is that
0:02:06 > 0:02:10what we want to achieve? It is the legal technicalities and the
0:02:10 > 0:02:13consequences that I am concerned about, I must come first. Nick
0:02:13 > 0:02:21Ramsey, where do you stand? I think the AMs are going through the same
0:02:21 > 0:02:25thoughts that we have been meaning. I think it is fine as it is. I
0:02:25 > 0:02:29think the thing is well-meaning and the AMs are looking to protect
0:02:29 > 0:02:34children but I think in terms of this mechanism talked about, I
0:02:34 > 0:02:41don't think so. I think there is a question whether the Assembly has
0:02:41 > 0:02:47the power to do this as well. know that your predecessor David
0:02:47 > 0:02:55Davies has written to the Welsh Secretary... You know who he is!
0:02:55 > 0:02:59Asking her to refer any decision if a positive decision is given, to
0:02:59 > 0:03:02refer it to the Supreme Court because he does not believe the
0:03:02 > 0:03:09Assembly has the power. Carwyn Jones believe he does and as Harry
0:03:09 > 0:03:14Hill said, how will we resolve this, it is a fight! I think there is a
0:03:14 > 0:03:18question here. The same thing with organ donation. The Assembly will
0:03:18 > 0:03:21have to deal with this. I think there probably is a question over
0:03:21 > 0:03:30whether the Assembly has the power but even if it does not, I think
0:03:30 > 0:03:40this mechanism is not the right one. I think this would be a job too far
0:03:40 > 0:03:43
0:03:43 > 0:03:46for a lot of people in Wales. . Your party leader, and a party
0:03:46 > 0:03:55colleagues, what are they telling you? I think it is an issue where
0:03:55 > 0:03:59it is so personal and so wrapped up in this combination of emotive
0:03:59 > 0:04:06arguments and legalistic arguments that it has to come down to an
0:04:06 > 0:04:10individual's conscience and that is why I want to not prejudge it. I
0:04:10 > 0:04:13want to listen to the arguments and get a better understanding of where
0:04:13 > 0:04:18people are coming from on both sides before I make a final
0:04:18 > 0:04:21decision. We will be back with our guests before long and in the
0:04:21 > 0:04:29meantime, we will find out what else is happening in The Senedd
0:04:29 > 0:04:33today with our intrepid reporter. What is happening this afternoon,
0:04:33 > 0:04:39the usual questions to ministers and today we have got questions to
0:04:39 > 0:04:45the Finance Minister and the business Minister. We have got the
0:04:45 > 0:04:51big move of what to have been talking about with our guest, a
0:04:51 > 0:04:54smacking Debate. This is confusing a lot of people. The first point we
0:04:54 > 0:04:59need to make is nothing will change in relation to the law about
0:04:59 > 0:05:03smacking today. This debate is about AMs asking the Welsh
0:05:03 > 0:05:11Government to bring forward legislation which might affect
0:05:11 > 0:05:15smacking. I will come on to that but if the vote is passed today,
0:05:15 > 0:05:22the law will not be changed. But if there is a vote in favour, what
0:05:22 > 0:05:25they are asking for is a removal of the events of lawful chastisement,
0:05:25 > 0:05:30when somebody is accused of assaulting a child. It appears that
0:05:30 > 0:05:34is not quite the same as a ban on smacking although the impact of it
0:05:34 > 0:05:38may well be to dissuade people from smacking children and certainly the
0:05:38 > 0:05:42AMs behind the vote would like to see an end to smacking of children.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45It is a complicated area but nothing substantial will change
0:05:45 > 0:05:54today in terms of the law. Following on from that debate, we
0:05:54 > 0:06:00have got one on broadcasting. Some have said that is a crisis hit area,
0:06:00 > 0:06:05Plaid Cymru have said that and the Conservatives have got a debate
0:06:05 > 0:06:10about sporting events. We have had the ashes and the Ryder Cup
0:06:10 > 0:06:13recently, the Conservatives don't believe in of is being done to
0:06:13 > 0:06:17affect Wales so they want to discuss that as well. We know that
0:06:17 > 0:06:21you will have some guests with the later on and we will catch up with
0:06:21 > 0:06:31you later on in the programme. You can find out even more of what is
0:06:31 > 0:06:35happening in the National Assembly on our website. And from the
0:06:35 > 0:06:40Assembly to Westminster where our reporter Tomos Livingstone is for
0:06:40 > 0:06:44us this morning. Good morning. I suppose the Liam Fox resignation
0:06:44 > 0:06:47still dominates discussions for you this morning, as the report from
0:06:47 > 0:06:55the Cabinet Secretary taking heat out of the sea? Not really, to be
0:06:55 > 0:06:59honest. -- out of the issue. Already so Gus O'Donnell was
0:06:59 > 0:07:03halfway through his report into the relationship that Liam Fox had with
0:07:03 > 0:07:10his friend, Adam Werritty. And whether that was appropriate. The
0:07:10 > 0:07:14report came out yesterday afternoon, we know that in Sir Gus O'Donnell's
0:07:14 > 0:07:18view, Liam Fox did break the ministerial code and we know that
0:07:18 > 0:07:21Liam Fox was warned by his own civil servants that it was perhaps
0:07:21 > 0:07:25in appropriate that Adam Werritty had access to his ministerial diary.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29You might say that he has resigned now, so why bother reading the
0:07:29 > 0:07:34report? But there will be changes to the way that the Government
0:07:34 > 0:07:43operates in the future with civil servants who have concern that
0:07:43 > 0:07:53their ministers may be going off- reservation a little bit. Perhaps
0:07:53 > 0:07:59
0:07:59 > 0:08:03with people who are not official advisers. A report has come out and
0:08:03 > 0:08:13the heat has not really gone out of it. I think Labour feel there are
0:08:13 > 0:08:13
0:08:14 > 0:08:17still questions unanswered. It will be very surprising if it doesn't
0:08:17 > 0:08:23come up at Prime Minister's Questions. The question is whether
0:08:23 > 0:08:28Ed Miliband tries to pin the blame on David Cameron himself or do what
0:08:28 > 0:08:30he did last week and allow his backbenchers to get on with the
0:08:30 > 0:08:35matter of allowing specific questions to be asked. I will be
0:08:35 > 0:08:38stunned if it is not asked, but even if not, Liam Fox is out of the
0:08:38 > 0:08:48frying pan, into the fire because he is expected to make a statement
0:08:48 > 0:08:50
0:08:50 > 0:08:56to the Commons later. Yes, Liam for Fox keen to put his set off views
0:08:56 > 0:08:59forward. What we expect is after PMQs, Ken Clarke will make estate
0:08:59 > 0:09:05on the Justice green paper that he is working on a memorable get a
0:09:05 > 0:09:09statement from Sir George Young sitting at the view of the House to
0:09:09 > 0:09:13Liam Fox. And then a debate on what George UN has to say for about one
0:09:13 > 0:09:17hour, and then at 2:30pm, we will get a personal statement from Liam
0:09:17 > 0:09:20Fox where he will try to set the record straight. His view is that
0:09:20 > 0:09:25while there may have been a breach of ministerial code, he doesn't
0:09:25 > 0:09:29think he has done that much wrong. It would be interesting to see if
0:09:29 > 0:09:34there is any hint in that statement as to whether he is planning a
0:09:34 > 0:09:37further political comeback. Another big story revolving around the
0:09:37 > 0:09:43taxman, some of us will be getting tax rebates and some of us have to
0:09:44 > 0:09:49pay money back. You never know your luck, you should watch the doormat
0:09:49 > 0:09:57carefully for a brown envelope from HMRC coming your way possibly soon.
0:09:57 > 0:10:066 million people paid too much tax and while an unlucky one million
0:10:06 > 0:10:11taxpayers paid too little. Those who paid too much, you'll have to
0:10:11 > 0:10:15pay it back through your tax code. Some MPs making a bit of a mischief,
0:10:15 > 0:10:25pointing out this is the second year in a row that they have made a
0:10:25 > 0:10:26
0:10:26 > 0:10:31mistake like this. It is all due to a new computer system but the
0:10:31 > 0:10:36Government say it is all to do with the rush pushing through a system
0:10:36 > 0:10:43under Gordon Brown. Lots of mischief going through the
0:10:43 > 0:10:47corridors of Westminster like that. But the present Government's does
0:10:48 > 0:10:54not inspire much confidence that the taxman cannot get the sums
0:10:54 > 0:10:58right. But also pain back tax to those who have paid too much will
0:10:58 > 0:11:03cost the Treasury �2 billion and that is not good for the deficit to
0:11:03 > 0:11:08be reduced. Thank you, we will be back with you later on for Prime
0:11:08 > 0:11:13Minister's Questions. What is your view on AMs' plans to
0:11:13 > 0:11:23ban smacking their children? Send us a tweet. You can write to us at
0:11:23 > 0:11:23
0:11:23 > 0:11:27BBC Wales on the address and a We have discussed already on the
0:11:27 > 0:11:33programme smacking today, let go over to mark for more news on the
0:11:33 > 0:11:38main business. A man can tell us a lot about this
0:11:38 > 0:11:46vote, one of the people behind the motion the South Wales East AM for
0:11:46 > 0:11:52Plaid Cymru, Lynsey Whittle. What is this motion and what does he
0:11:52 > 0:11:59hope to achieve? We hope that passing a law here in Wales will
0:11:59 > 0:12:02prevent children from being smacked and abused. How will it do that? If
0:12:02 > 0:12:08the vote is passed this afternoon, all that would have been achieved
0:12:08 > 0:12:13is establishing that the Assembly want to see a change in the law,
0:12:13 > 0:12:16but not a substantial change today? No, but a first step in a long
0:12:16 > 0:12:20journey and I am very proud to play a part in that. I passionately
0:12:20 > 0:12:29believe we should not be smacking children. But the law is so archaic
0:12:29 > 0:12:36now, that a man could smack a wife, his children and his servants under
0:12:36 > 0:12:42all that that was not long ago, but he cannot smack his servant and
0:12:42 > 0:12:51wife but he can smack his children, that is not right. Could this vote
0:12:51 > 0:12:57is passed today, the Assembly will ask the law to be brought forward
0:12:57 > 0:13:07on lawful chastisement. That is not the same as a smacking ban, is it?
0:13:07 > 0:13:07
0:13:07 > 0:13:12When there is a slap to a child -- when does a slap stop? Willett
0:13:12 > 0:13:18detach a writer? When it perforate an eardrum? When it dislocate a jaw,
0:13:18 > 0:13:21you don't know. And when does the slap become a fist? The chain you
0:13:21 > 0:13:30have itemised is a change to a particular legal defence and that
0:13:30 > 0:13:38does not emerge and then if the law was changed, they would not be able
0:13:38 > 0:13:43to plead lawful chastisement, that is not the same as saying you
0:13:43 > 0:13:47cannot smack under any circumstances? If you do not start
0:13:47 > 0:13:51here, where do you start and we have to start somewhere. If we do
0:13:51 > 0:14:00this today, it gets across a sign that smacking your child is not
0:14:00 > 0:14:07right. Years ago, it would be about seatbelts, some people would say
0:14:07 > 0:14:11the same about smoking in public buildings but look where we are now.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15What is clear is you are looking for a change in criminal law, and
0:14:15 > 0:14:18you know that David Davies has come up this morning as at the Assembly
0:14:18 > 0:14:23has not got the power to deliver those changes, what is your view on
0:14:23 > 0:14:27that position? This is the Assembly for Wales that now has far more
0:14:27 > 0:14:31law-making powers. I look forward to all law-making powers and the
0:14:31 > 0:14:38Westminster government is irrelevant. Mr Davies's government
0:14:38 > 0:14:41wants to reduce the number of Members of Parliament to the 30 and
0:14:41 > 0:14:45I look forward to the day when we decide everything in Wales. What
0:14:45 > 0:14:48about the view that is not for politicians to tell the majority of
0:14:48 > 0:14:53loving parents had to discipline children? There are many loving
0:14:54 > 0:14:57parents are there but many loving parents do things that anger and
0:14:57 > 0:15:07temper and you should not allow that. It is for politicians to
0:15:07 > 0:15:15
0:15:15 > 0:15:19protect children, saving the lives We will watch the debate with
0:15:19 > 0:15:22interest this afternoon. Back to you now.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25Children under the age of 16 could be stopped from having piercings
0:15:25 > 0:15:29without their parents' permission. Yesterday the Welsh government
0:15:29 > 0:15:32announced that they will look at whether there should be a legal age
0:15:32 > 0:15:35of consent for piercings. Ministers say that some piercings could
0:15:35 > 0:15:40become infected. Others are concerned that children will do it
0:15:40 > 0:15:43themselves. His our health correspondent.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47It's an increasingly popular fashion statement. Some piercing
0:15:47 > 0:15:51sounds like this one in Swansea impose their own age restrictions,
0:15:51 > 0:15:54but in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, there is no law to say how
0:15:54 > 0:16:01old you have to be before you can have your ears or other body parts
0:16:01 > 0:16:08kissed. We do naval piercings from the age of 13 as long as there is
0:16:08 > 0:16:12parental consent. The chances of potential migration of that
0:16:12 > 0:16:16piercing, the movement through the skin, is going to be higher than
0:16:16 > 0:16:21say on a 20-year-old. Even though it is only seven or eight years'
0:16:21 > 0:16:25difference. Research suggests that 25% of those who have a cosmetic
0:16:25 > 0:16:29piercing, other than through the ear, experience some kind of
0:16:29 > 0:16:34complication. Three years ago, a petition was laid to the Assembly
0:16:34 > 0:16:37calling for under 16s to require parents' permission for other
0:16:37 > 0:16:41piercings plants ear-piercing. thought I would love to see what
0:16:41 > 0:16:45regulations there were, and was shocked to find that it was not
0:16:45 > 0:16:50regulated at all. Anybody could pierce your child, be it at nine,
0:16:50 > 0:16:5410 or 11 years old, and there was nothing as a parent that you can do.
0:16:54 > 0:16:59Scotland has already introduced a law that parents have to be with
0:16:59 > 0:17:03under 16s to get a piercing. This Assembly to have the power to
0:17:03 > 0:17:09legislate, and the Welsh government intends to use it. I would favour
0:17:09 > 0:17:13setting the age at 16. In the main, young people at 16 are able to
0:17:13 > 0:17:17intelligently identify and consider the short and long term it risks
0:17:17 > 0:17:22and implications of having a cosmetic piercing. Legislating in
0:17:22 > 0:17:32this way make lead to young people taking matters into their own hands,
0:17:32 > 0:17:32
0:17:32 > 0:17:36and kissing themselves in an unsafe or unhygienic way -- piercings. I
0:17:36 > 0:17:42wonder what safeguards the Minister intends to bring forward in terms
0:17:42 > 0:17:46of legislation in order to combat that. In a Bangor, these 14-year-
0:17:46 > 0:17:50olds agreed that a new law should be introduced. If you are over the
0:17:50 > 0:17:54age of 16 then you should be able to make the decision yourself.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59would not go on my own to have a piercing, just in case something
0:17:59 > 0:18:04went wrong. There are infections and it is quite painful to get them
0:18:04 > 0:18:07done. And they cost a lot of money. Some say it would be difficult to
0:18:07 > 0:18:10police. They will all get to have their say as the Government
0:18:10 > 0:18:13consults between now and the end of January.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17We will do our own bit of consultation now with our guests.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21Nick Ramsay, there is a theme developing here, isn't there? Some
0:18:21 > 0:18:25might say a nanny state. What do you think about plans to bring in a
0:18:25 > 0:18:28minimum age for piercing? actually think this is a good idea.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32I was not aware to start with what the Government were proposing until
0:18:32 > 0:18:36the statement was made yesterday, and I think the idea of a minimum
0:18:36 > 0:18:40age is good. I think 16 is reasonable. There are laws at the
0:18:40 > 0:18:46moment, but the issue is that age and about parental consent, and
0:18:46 > 0:18:49most people would say it is sensible to get permission.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Something probably does need to be done. But it does need to be
0:18:52 > 0:18:57policed, and we have to make sure that we don't create a whole
0:18:57 > 0:19:00culture and of children trying to do it themselves because they have
0:19:00 > 0:19:05not got permission. That needs to be addressed. How widespread is
0:19:05 > 0:19:09that practice? A couple of Assembly Members referred to it yesterday,
0:19:09 > 0:19:15and apparently there are home appears in kits available on the
0:19:15 > 0:19:20internet. People have been kissing their own -- piercing at their own
0:19:20 > 0:19:24ears since I was a child, probably. I remember doing it to school
0:19:24 > 0:19:28friends of mine. What we are not talking about is a fairly
0:19:28 > 0:19:35straightforward procedure like a pierced ear. We are looking at
0:19:35 > 0:19:42other procedures like piercing an eyebrow or tongue or a navel. It is
0:19:42 > 0:19:46much more complicated. I do worry that there are tickets available
0:19:46 > 0:19:51that make that seem like a reasonable possibility - tickets
0:19:51 > 0:19:55available. We have to look widely at how we would legislate for this,
0:19:55 > 0:20:00how we would make sure that legislation is effective in
0:20:00 > 0:20:07preventing people from taking things into their own hands as well.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11Well, the consultation is under way. That is it on a piercing for the
0:20:11 > 0:20:13moment. Still to come on am.pm: we will go live to the House of
0:20:13 > 0:20:17Commons for Prime Minister's Questions at midday.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21Time to go back to Mark in the Oriel now where he is going global,
0:20:21 > 0:20:27apparently. Yes, we are going to talk about protests. We have been
0:20:27 > 0:20:33to extraordinary protests around the world, starting in America. We
0:20:33 > 0:20:39have now got them at St Paul's Cathedral in London. Denis Campbell,
0:20:39 > 0:20:44let's start where it started, from our perspective, occupying Wall
0:20:44 > 0:20:48Street because they are disaffected with the capitalist system? The
0:20:48 > 0:20:52greed of bankers? What are they disaffected with? Probably all of
0:20:52 > 0:20:55the above. If you look at the way this has organically grown, this
0:20:55 > 0:20:59started four weeks ago as a bunch of young people predominantly who
0:20:59 > 0:21:02were most affected by the student loan debt in the United States. It
0:21:03 > 0:21:06has now blossomed because the mainstream media has come around,
0:21:06 > 0:21:10and this was largely due to some of the same things we saw during the
0:21:10 > 0:21:15Arab Spring, with police over- reacting to the people that were
0:21:15 > 0:21:20there on the ground grating what we in the media call a second day
0:21:20 > 0:21:23story. So the momentum began to build. When the police arrested
0:21:23 > 0:21:29those too young people and then 700 people on the Brooklyn Bridge,
0:21:29 > 0:21:33suddenly this became a major issue. They are disaffected with the way
0:21:33 > 0:21:37the financial industry has been allowed to basically destroyed the
0:21:37 > 0:21:41economy, take most of the wealth out of it, and there has been
0:21:41 > 0:21:46absolutely no one called to account. No one has been arrested, no one
0:21:46 > 0:21:54has been charged. They are being asked to bail out the financial
0:21:54 > 0:21:58institutions to the tune of $700 billion. Now those institutions
0:21:58 > 0:22:01will not release new loans for businesses. We have seen that in
0:22:01 > 0:22:05the UK, where if you own a small business you find yourself
0:22:05 > 0:22:09constantly being pressured and threatened with rising rates and
0:22:09 > 0:22:18cuts and services. People are basically saying that we are the
0:22:18 > 0:22:2499%, not the 1%. That has really captured -- caught on. It is almost
0:22:24 > 0:22:28a Republican tea-party slogan in its simplicity. In some respects,
0:22:28 > 0:22:33the right wing is upset that they did not commit themselves and try
0:22:33 > 0:22:37to take it for themselves. The tea party came into prominence with the
0:22:37 > 0:22:46republican movement. Yes, that is quite right wing. Yes, but they
0:22:46 > 0:22:50said don't give us death penalties, don't take away our health care.
0:22:50 > 0:22:54What intrigues me from outside America is that we have a
0:22:54 > 0:22:58perception that belief in capitalisation, belief in money is
0:22:58 > 0:23:01almost an American religion. How is is playing out in the Midwest, for
0:23:01 > 0:23:05example? What do they make of these young people? Are they threatened
0:23:05 > 0:23:09by them? I don't think that the people in general are threatened.
0:23:09 > 0:23:13The astonishing thing is that the Poles I have seen is that upwards
0:23:13 > 0:23:18of 70% of the general US public support the ideals once they
0:23:18 > 0:23:24understand them. If you can get past the idea that you have got a
0:23:24 > 0:23:29bunch of people essentially living in a public square, this movement
0:23:29 > 0:23:33has now taken over 700 cities in the United States. There are
0:23:33 > 0:23:37movements everywhere. And beyond the United States, we have got them
0:23:37 > 0:23:40in London outside St Paul's Cathedral. I saw some of the films
0:23:40 > 0:23:46coming from there the other day, and that is a lot of feathers on
0:23:46 > 0:23:51what people are against, but not so much on what the way forward is --
0:23:51 > 0:23:56a lot of emphasis. Yes, people are starting to come to the forefront
0:23:56 > 0:24:02and say, "if you really want to put an agenda, you have to work within
0:24:02 > 0:24:09the system". That is the danger. You are seeing a wedge being driven
0:24:09 > 0:24:13between the two sides. We saw this in Egypt. We saw the older
0:24:13 > 0:24:19population trying very hard to drive a wedge between the young
0:24:19 > 0:24:23students, particularly as the Arab Spring, the 18 days of the Egyptian
0:24:23 > 0:24:29Revolution, went further and further. It almost felt completely
0:24:29 > 0:24:39apart during that third week. Then we saw how it actually ended. They
0:24:39 > 0:24:40
0:24:40 > 0:24:43are in that little bit of a lull now, almost in week five. Have they
0:24:43 > 0:24:46got international corporation? Are all these cities talking to each
0:24:46 > 0:24:50other? Is there any threat of revolutionary movements in some
0:24:50 > 0:24:53countries? There is indeed. As a matter of fact, I just saw
0:24:53 > 0:24:57something this morning about the Philippines will stop I have no
0:24:57 > 0:25:05idea what it is. The problem is that there are people that will try
0:25:05 > 0:25:10to take this message for themselves. There is always going to be that
0:25:10 > 0:25:14threat. The biggest issue is going to be keeping it simple and making
0:25:14 > 0:25:18sure that people don't go over the boundaries of the non-violent
0:25:18 > 0:25:24protest. It is fascinating, we don't know where it will go from
0:25:24 > 0:25:27here. Thank you for joining us. Before we go off to Westminster for
0:25:27 > 0:25:32Prime Minister's Questions, a quick chat with our guests about what we
0:25:32 > 0:25:38think may come up. Liam Fox was mentioned earlier on. That is
0:25:38 > 0:25:42inevitable, isn't it? I think so. I feel sad about the whole situation
0:25:42 > 0:25:45about Liam Fox. I understand he was to make a statement later.
0:25:46 > 0:25:51Ultimately the right decision was made. The ministerial code had been
0:25:51 > 0:25:55broken, but it is very sad. He was, as David Cameron said, very good in
0:25:55 > 0:26:00that job. He had a lot of respect within the Defence Department, and
0:26:00 > 0:26:03it is sad this has happened. Some people are surprised that some of
0:26:03 > 0:26:08your party colleagues are still in the capital sum of the things they
0:26:08 > 0:26:13have done. And yet Liam Fox has resigned for what he has done. Do
0:26:13 > 0:26:21you think his resignation has may be created an imbalance? I don't
0:26:21 > 0:26:25think so. It is about making sure that the people who are empowered
0:26:25 > 0:26:29with the executive powers to take a portfolio forward are capable,
0:26:29 > 0:26:33confident and able. In the case of Liam Fox, you have to say that one
0:26:33 > 0:26:40of the critical things for a defence minister has got to be
0:26:40 > 0:26:43judgment and discretion. minister, surely? Particularly a
0:26:43 > 0:26:46minister of defence, there you are looking day in day out at issues of
0:26:46 > 0:26:51national security. I am sorry, but an error of judgment of these kind
0:26:51 > 0:26:55of magnitude, and a lack of discretion of that kind of
0:26:55 > 0:27:00magnitude, made his position completely untenable. Nick, what do
0:27:00 > 0:27:02you think about this suggestion within the Conservative
0:27:02 > 0:27:08backbenchers in Westminster that there is now an imbalance within
0:27:08 > 0:27:12the Cabinet on the right of the Tory party? I don't really see that.
0:27:12 > 0:27:18I think it is about having the best people in the best positions, and I
0:27:18 > 0:27:22think... But some MPs don't, do they? No, but I disagree with some
0:27:22 > 0:27:27MPs. Ultimately, David Cameron is the prime minister, he chairs the
0:27:27 > 0:27:31Cabinet, and he and Nick Clegg are taking the policies in a direction
0:27:31 > 0:27:35which they want. All the Cabinet members have bought into that
0:27:35 > 0:27:40agenda, so whether they are on the right, as Liam Fox is, or further
0:27:40 > 0:27:45to the left like Ken Clarke, I think there is a common agenda. I
0:27:45 > 0:27:49do agree that Liam Fox has done the right thing. Mistakes were made. It
0:27:49 > 0:27:53is now about making sure that this critical point, when defence cuts
0:27:53 > 0:27:56are so important and Liam Fox was actually very able in terms of
0:27:56 > 0:28:01dealing with that budget, that maximum support is given to his
0:28:01 > 0:28:05successor to make sure of that he can bring the cuts forward in a way
0:28:05 > 0:28:08that does not harm the defence of the country. Are you happy that a
0:28:08 > 0:28:13line has been drawn under this, because obviously Ed Miliband is
0:28:13 > 0:28:15going to try to see some capital from it today. That is the nations
0:28:15 > 0:28:19of Prime Minister's Questions, isn't it? Let's see how much
0:28:19 > 0:28:23capital we can gain on a political level. To be honest, on a personal
0:28:23 > 0:28:27level, I do feel for Liam Fox because today is going to be the
0:28:27 > 0:28:34most difficult day of his life. To have to face the Commons, to admit
0:28:34 > 0:28:37that level of mistake, and... has admitted it, he said last week
0:28:37 > 0:28:41he had made mistakes. Yes, but unfortunate that has been some kind
0:28:41 > 0:28:45of Greek on the level of mistake he was prepared to admit. I think that
0:28:45 > 0:28:50is going to give him problems today because people are now going to
0:28:50 > 0:28:53continue to press him for answers on further issues, I fear. On a
0:28:53 > 0:28:57personal level, I feel sorry for him for that because it is going to
0:28:57 > 0:29:03be difficult because of the decision he took not to be
0:29:03 > 0:29:08absolutely crystal clear in the first to place. -- in the first
0:29:08 > 0:29:16place. That is going to prevent him from drawing a line under it.
0:29:16 > 0:29:21else do you expect to come up today? I would expect to see the
0:29:21 > 0:29:25Dale Farm situation come up today because obviously this is something
0:29:25 > 0:29:33that is very pressing, and something that I would like to see
0:29:33 > 0:29:36discussed. And the tax issue. terms of the taxes, it is difficult
0:29:36 > 0:29:39for Ed Miliband. Some people will be getting more money back, and
0:29:39 > 0:29:43some will have to pay some back. Does he go on the fact that he
0:29:43 > 0:29:47considers the Treasury has made a mess of this, or does he welcome
0:29:47 > 0:29:50the fact that people are going to get more money in their pockets?
0:29:50 > 0:29:53think he would be foolish not to actually support those people who
0:29:53 > 0:29:57will get some money back, because clearly people, particularly at
0:29:57 > 0:30:01this time when people are cutting back, will appreciate that. It is
0:30:01 > 0:30:06interesting to see how this has happened. Once again we hear about
0:30:06 > 0:30:09a computer fault. It does seem that across all manner of issues,
0:30:09 > 0:30:12computer faults are cropping up, so maybe he will jump on that and
0:30:13 > 0:30:17asked what safeguards are in place to make sure this does not happen
0:30:17 > 0:30:27again. As I mentioned earlier, in terms of whether I get a rebate or
0:30:27 > 0:30:32
0:30:32 > 0:30:36-- rebate or not, I'm sure computer welfare reforms which will be
0:30:36 > 0:30:40important for Northern Ireland's future prosperity. We must hear Mr
0:30:40 > 0:30:44Jeffrey Donaldson. Will the Minister join with me in welcoming
0:30:44 > 0:30:49the decision by the Northern Ireland Executive to cut tuition
0:30:49 > 0:30:54fees at just over �3,000 and the boost this provides to young people
0:30:54 > 0:30:59in Northern Ireland to seek to graduate from university. These
0:30:59 > 0:31:03matters, of course, are probably matters for the executive. I will
0:31:03 > 0:31:08point out that that money will have to be found from within the
0:31:08 > 0:31:18existing budget of the executive. Questions to the Prime Minister, Mr
0:31:18 > 0:31:21Stephen Hepburn. Labour MP from I'm sure the whole House will wish
0:31:21 > 0:31:24to join me in the memory of Rifleman Vijay Rai from 2nd
0:31:24 > 0:31:28Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles he was a talented and dedicated
0:31:28 > 0:31:32soldier and our deepest sympathies should be with his family and
0:31:32 > 0:31:36friends. He was proud to be a Gurkha and at times like these, we
0:31:36 > 0:31:40especially remember the deep debt of gratitude that we are all those
0:31:40 > 0:31:43brave soldiers. This morning I had meetings with ministerial
0:31:43 > 0:31:50colleagues and others and I shall have further such meetings later
0:31:50 > 0:31:54today. Can I commend and share the views of the Prime Minister
0:31:54 > 0:32:00concerning our brave Nick military personnel. Is the Prime Minister
0:32:00 > 0:32:05aware that we are common to -- married in the 75th anniversary of
0:32:05 > 0:32:09the Jarrow march? And isn't it wrong that even today, people in
0:32:09 > 0:32:13this country live in fear of the dole and unemployment? The
0:32:13 > 0:32:16Government have been in one year and already we are back to the 19
0:32:16 > 0:32:22eighties. Can I ask the Prime Minister this simple question - is
0:32:22 > 0:32:25he going to be supporting workers or sacrificing them? I believe we
0:32:25 > 0:32:30need to be supporting people and helping them back into work. We
0:32:30 > 0:32:34should commemorate the Jarrow march as he says and I notice it has been
0:32:34 > 0:32:37commemorated this year. We have a challenge across the country as we
0:32:37 > 0:32:42see numbers employed in the public sector inevitably go down and that
0:32:42 > 0:32:46will be happening, whoever was standing here. We have got to make
0:32:46 > 0:32:51sure there are more jobs in the private sector. And in the north-
0:32:51 > 0:32:59east what we do see, which is worth well, is a Nissan creating 200 new
0:32:59 > 0:33:04jobs, Hitachi up to 500 new jobs, and BT are creating an extra 280
0:33:04 > 0:33:09jobs in South Shields. There are 500,000 more private sector jobs
0:33:09 > 0:33:13compared at the time of the last election but I recognise we need to
0:33:13 > 0:33:23do more on that is what they were programme is about. Can I
0:33:23 > 0:33:28
0:33:28 > 0:33:31congratulate my right honourable With his joint declaration on the
0:33:31 > 0:33:35Canadian Prime Minister on renewable energy. Obviously we now
0:33:36 > 0:33:41need to make sure we have growth in our economy. May I ask as to what
0:33:41 > 0:33:48he thinks universities such as Plymouth, which have a very good
0:33:48 > 0:33:51reputation on green research, can do to help make sure we...
0:33:51 > 0:33:59commend my friend for his question because there are a number of
0:33:59 > 0:34:03universes across the country, but our leaders in marine renewable
0:34:03 > 0:34:07energy and yesterday the climate change secretary and as we will be
0:34:08 > 0:34:15going ahead with the renewable obligation certificates, making
0:34:16 > 0:34:21sure we boost these vital industry and attract jobs to this country.
0:34:21 > 0:34:27Mr Ed Miliband. Can I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to
0:34:27 > 0:34:31Rifleman Vijay Rai from 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles.
0:34:31 > 0:34:34In joining the Army, he was following a proud family tradition.
0:34:34 > 0:34:38He showed the utmost courage and bravery and is in deepest
0:34:38 > 0:34:42condolences are with his family and friends. The revelations over the
0:34:42 > 0:34:45last week about what has been going on in the most sensitive department
0:34:45 > 0:34:48at the heart of the Prime Minister's government and deeply
0:34:48 > 0:34:57worrying. The former Defence Secretary had an unofficial adviser
0:34:57 > 0:35:03with access to top officials in the military and foreign governments.
0:35:03 > 0:35:09Yet the Prime Minister said he knew nothing about these goings on for
0:35:09 > 0:35:1118 months. How did he allow this to happen? First, I agree with the
0:35:11 > 0:35:17right honourable gentleman that this is an important and serious
0:35:17 > 0:35:19issue and that is why I set up a full and proper inquiry by the
0:35:19 > 0:35:25Cabinet Secretary and he has produced that report and the report
0:35:25 > 0:35:29has been published in full and I do think it is worth recognising that
0:35:29 > 0:35:35in this case, the Secretary of State for Defence recognised that
0:35:36 > 0:35:40he had made a mistake, acknowledged that he broke the ministerial code
0:35:40 > 0:35:46and resigned. That is not have been that has happened a lot than the
0:35:46 > 0:35:53last 13 years. A piece of advice to the Prime Minister, this week of
0:35:53 > 0:35:57all weeks, show a bit of humility. David Cameron not impressed with
0:35:57 > 0:36:03that. And the truth is that we still do not know the full facts
0:36:03 > 0:36:07about this case. About the money trail, about who exactly in the
0:36:07 > 0:36:10money met Adam Werritty and it is becoming clear that there are a
0:36:10 > 0:36:13network of individuals the who funded him, some with close links
0:36:13 > 0:36:20to the Conservative Party and others in the Cabinet. Given that
0:36:20 > 0:36:24he says he knows nothing about the arrangements of the former Defence
0:36:24 > 0:36:29Secretary, can he now give this House a categorical guarantee that
0:36:29 > 0:36:34over the past 18 months, no other government Minister has been
0:36:34 > 0:36:40engaging in similar activities? think we should have a bit of
0:36:40 > 0:36:49humility from the people who gave us cabs for hire, passports for
0:36:49 > 0:36:55flavour, mortgages formate so... Dodgy dossiers, smearing opponents,
0:36:55 > 0:37:02good days to Barry bad news. These are the questions that he was meant
0:37:02 > 0:37:10to at last week. If you will jump on a bandwagon, make sure it is
0:37:10 > 0:37:15still moving. Mr Speaker, no answered the question that we want
0:37:15 > 0:37:21answering. This is a Prime Minister and we see a pattern of activity
0:37:21 > 0:37:25with him, he does not ask the tough questions of those around him and
0:37:25 > 0:37:30when anything goes wrong, it is nothing to do with him. What did he
0:37:30 > 0:37:36say in the ministerial code he published? He said "it is not
0:37:36 > 0:37:41enough to simply make a difference, we must be different". And in the
0:37:41 > 0:37:44last three months we have seen his defence secretary resign in
0:37:44 > 0:37:50disgrace and his spin doctor arrested. Is that what he meant by
0:37:50 > 0:38:00being different? COMMENTATOR: A reference to Andy
0:38:00 > 0:38:03
0:38:03 > 0:38:12Coulson. The Minister in question Would my right honourable friend
0:38:12 > 0:38:15agreed that at a time... Order, I want to hear Mr Brazier. Would my
0:38:15 > 0:38:20right honourable friend agree that at a time when the Governor of the
0:38:20 > 0:38:26Bank of England has said we are facing a possibly unprecedented
0:38:26 > 0:38:33economic crisis, it is a good thing that this country is still
0:38:33 > 0:38:38committed to getting our debt under control and to retaining
0:38:38 > 0:38:41credibility in the financial markets. I think my honourable
0:38:41 > 0:38:44friend makes an important point and I think people should listen to
0:38:44 > 0:38:53what the Governor of the Bank of England said yesterday when he said
0:38:53 > 0:38:57that with a credible plan, we were on track but the problems in the
0:38:57 > 0:39:04euro area and the marked slowing of the economy in the world have made
0:39:04 > 0:39:09the period of stability in the world will take longer than planned.
0:39:10 > 0:39:15If we listen to the party opposite, they added �23 billion to the
0:39:15 > 0:39:21deficit this year, it would be free kick economics -- they would have
0:39:21 > 0:39:25added. The Prime Minister has acknowledged that there was
0:39:25 > 0:39:30collusion in the murder of Pat Finucane, does he accept that in
0:39:30 > 0:39:35order to get to the bottom of that, we have to get to the top of that?
0:39:35 > 0:39:39And does he recognise that many of us lack confidence that a desk
0:39:39 > 0:39:43reviewed by even an eminent lawyer is going to do that and will he
0:39:43 > 0:39:46reflect further on the grave misgivings given by the victim's
0:39:46 > 0:39:50family and the Irish Government? course I understand the scepticism
0:39:50 > 0:39:57of the honourable gentleman and there was great scepticism by many
0:39:57 > 0:39:59at the time of the Saville Inquiry. What matters most is the intent of
0:40:00 > 0:40:06the British Government in uncovering what happened, being
0:40:06 > 0:40:10frank about it, apologising about it and acknowledging it. You don't
0:40:10 > 0:40:15need an open inquiry to that. Said to those who are sceptical, they
0:40:15 > 0:40:22will go on, I just ask them to have an open mind and I believe we can
0:40:22 > 0:40:29deal with this properly. Will the Prime Minister join me in
0:40:29 > 0:40:34congratulating one council in that first building more and more houses
0:40:34 > 0:40:43on Brownfield site and that the first draft of the new national
0:40:43 > 0:40:47policy housing framework can... COMMENTATOR: Grant Shapps, the
0:40:47 > 0:40:51Housing Minister. The letter reassure him on planning policy
0:40:51 > 0:40:57because we are not making changes to green belt or other protections
0:40:57 > 0:41:04and I am sure he can discuss that with the a planning Minister. I can
0:41:04 > 0:41:08its light all local councils that built houses and I am sure he will
0:41:08 > 0:41:12welcome the announcement that have been made that we have worked
0:41:12 > 0:41:20closely on with the Deputy Prime Minister, to build more social
0:41:20 > 0:41:25housing so we end the scandal of overcrowded housing. Can I thank
0:41:25 > 0:41:29you and put on record my gratitude to the Home Secretary on all sides
0:41:29 > 0:41:32of the House for their support for the Hillsborough families for the
0:41:32 > 0:41:37days of debate. Will the Prime Minister acknowledged that
0:41:37 > 0:41:42governments have made mistakes, that 22 years is 22 years too long
0:41:42 > 0:41:48to fight for the truth and that if it is proven, that there was an
0:41:48 > 0:41:51orchestrated cover-up, despite two decade passing, Justice Judge still
0:41:51 > 0:41:55prevail and those held responsible for the Hillsborough disaster
0:41:55 > 0:41:59should be brought to book? Let me say to the honourable gentleman
0:41:59 > 0:42:02that last week, I promised him that the time for the debate would be
0:42:02 > 0:42:06properly protected and the House would have a proper time to debated
0:42:06 > 0:42:10which it did. This week I can tell him that we are going to open up
0:42:11 > 0:42:14those papers and publish them as we promised so people can see what was
0:42:14 > 0:42:18happening. I would say that it is important to remember that the
0:42:18 > 0:42:24Taylor inquiry was a proper and the investigation, it was not an
0:42:24 > 0:42:28inquiry into just what happened, it led to huge changes in what we do
0:42:28 > 0:42:32to manage football. It was a national tragedy and I am hugely
0:42:32 > 0:42:37sympathetic to the families of the victims and I'm sure that all the
0:42:37 > 0:42:42institutions involved have regrets. The Prime Minister has given his
0:42:42 > 0:42:47backing to national heroes Day this Friday, 21st October. Will he
0:42:47 > 0:42:50joined in commending the hundreds of schools taking part, taking
0:42:50 > 0:42:55inspiration on all models and raising money for Help For Heroes.
0:42:55 > 0:42:59I am very pleased to do that. I am a huge fan of the charity, it has
0:42:59 > 0:43:02been a remarkable story of how it has grown. I have seen for myself
0:43:02 > 0:43:05the extraordinary events they have made in Headley Court where they
0:43:05 > 0:43:10have built this extraordinary swimming pool used by so many
0:43:10 > 0:43:18people recovering from their injuries. I certainly am pleased to
0:43:18 > 0:43:21support that. Ed Miliband. Speaker, last week we heard
0:43:21 > 0:43:25unemployment was at its highest level since the last Conservative
0:43:25 > 0:43:28Government. This week we heard the retail price inflation at its
0:43:28 > 0:43:35highest level since the last Conservative Government. Does the
0:43:35 > 0:43:39Prime Minister still think his plan is working? And to put him right,
0:43:39 > 0:43:45CPI, the measure of inflation we all now recognise, the last time
0:43:45 > 0:43:49CPI was as high as this was in 2008 when he was in government. But is
0:43:50 > 0:43:55an important point. Of course, inflation is too high. The
0:43:55 > 0:44:00principal reasons are world food prices, will fuel prices, the
0:44:00 > 0:44:04depreciation of sterling and yes, there was an effect on the increase
0:44:04 > 0:44:08in VAT just as there was increased when he increased VAT at the
0:44:09 > 0:44:14beginning of 2010. But the reason for increasing it is to get on top
0:44:14 > 0:44:17of the record deficit the last Government left. As always, the
0:44:17 > 0:44:21Prime Minister says it is like that in the rest of the world. We have
0:44:21 > 0:44:25got the highest inflation of any other European Union country apart
0:44:25 > 0:44:29from Estonia, because of the decisions he made including the
0:44:29 > 0:44:34decision he made on VAT. Week-in, week-out, the evidence mounts that
0:44:34 > 0:44:38his plan is not working and he refuses to change course. Last week
0:44:38 > 0:44:42we heard that his flagship national insurance scheme have not worked.
0:44:42 > 0:44:47Let me ask him about his flagship we shall Growth Fund which he
0:44:47 > 0:44:55launched 16 months ago. Can he tell us how many business have had cash
0:44:55 > 0:45:01paid out under the scheme. Let me put him right on this issue... It
0:45:01 > 0:45:04is important. One of the reasons why Britain has such a difficult
0:45:04 > 0:45:11situation with inflation is we were the country with the biggest boom
0:45:11 > 0:45:14and the biggest bus. He cannot hide from that -- biggest bust. It will
0:45:14 > 0:45:21be redistributing billions of pounds of my right across the
0:45:21 > 0:45:29country and it is worthwhile but he should be supporting. I don't think
0:45:29 > 0:45:33he knows the answer, Mr Speaker. Here certainly release a lot of
0:45:33 > 0:45:40press releases, 22. But how many businesses have been helped in the
0:45:40 > 0:45:46past 16 months? Two. Two businesses in 16 months. And how many
0:45:46 > 0:45:50businesses have gone bankrupt in that time? 16,000. What greater
0:45:50 > 0:45:54example could there be of the way this Government's plan is not
0:45:54 > 0:45:58working. 18 months of this economic experiment and what has he got to
0:45:59 > 0:46:02show for it? More people losing their jobs, more businesses going
0:46:02 > 0:46:12bust and inflation going through the roof and all we have got is a
0:46:12 > 0:46:15
0:46:15 > 0:46:25Prime Minister who is hopelessly Because all he wants to do is talk
0:46:25 > 0:46:27
0:46:27 > 0:46:32down the economy. He won't mention the fact there are 300,000 new
0:46:32 > 0:46:36businesses. There are 500,000 people who have got jobs he did not
0:46:36 > 0:46:39have them at the time of the election. But the big question for
0:46:39 > 0:46:49the Right Honourable Gentleman is, if he doesn't like our plan, where
0:46:49 > 0:46:59is his plan? We now know that his plan to deal with our debts is...
0:46:59 > 0:47:00
0:47:00 > 0:47:05Order, order! The Prime Minister answer must be heard. His plan is
0:47:05 > 0:47:08to and �23 billion to Britain's deficit this year, and almost �100
0:47:09 > 0:47:16billion to our deficit by the end of the parliament. There is not one
0:47:16 > 0:47:20single country in Europe that would have such a crazy plan. Labour
0:47:20 > 0:47:24front bench asking the Prime Minister to calm down! Order,
0:47:24 > 0:47:31order! We are most grateful to the Shadow Chancellor for his advice,
0:47:31 > 0:47:35but I would like to ask the House as a whole to calm down, otherwise
0:47:35 > 0:47:41it will be in the medical curriculum! The problem is, it was
0:47:41 > 0:47:44his advice that got us into this mess in the first place. When is he
0:47:44 > 0:47:48going to learn, there is not a single country in Europe that
0:47:48 > 0:47:57things you deal with your death by adding to your debt. That's why no
0:47:57 > 0:48:00one listened to him here, or in Europe. Yesterday a report was
0:48:00 > 0:48:04published in to the serious failings by Nottinghamshire police
0:48:04 > 0:48:08to protect a young woman who went on to be murdered by her violent
0:48:08 > 0:48:13partner. Would the Prime Minister agree with me that it is imperative
0:48:13 > 0:48:18that all police forces have the practices, the policies, and the
0:48:18 > 0:48:21training to protect women from violent men? I absolutely agree
0:48:21 > 0:48:25with my Honourable Friend. The point she makes is important
0:48:25 > 0:48:30because some police forces have made -- made a huge step forward in
0:48:30 > 0:48:37how we deal with domestic violence, but not all. We need to recognise
0:48:37 > 0:48:42that right across the country. Association of college principals
0:48:42 > 0:48:49has just announced the largest fall in college enrolments since 1999,
0:48:49 > 0:48:54and cite the abolition of EMA as a major factor. It is a tragedy of
0:48:54 > 0:48:56the Government's owner making and it lies directly at the door of the
0:48:56 > 0:49:00Secretary for Education. What is the Government going to do to make
0:49:00 > 0:49:06this right? I think she will find that some enrolments have actually
0:49:06 > 0:49:08gone up, and if you look at our replacement for EMA, it is a well
0:49:08 > 0:49:11funded scheme that will be much better targeted on those people in
0:49:11 > 0:49:21need. The people who really need the extra money will get more than
0:49:21 > 0:49:22
0:49:22 > 0:49:25under EMA. We are facing high fuel bills, and there is a vested
0:49:25 > 0:49:29interest by the six big fuel companies not to allow competition
0:49:29 > 0:49:33into the market. Could I ask the Prime Minister what he is doing to
0:49:33 > 0:49:37bring more competition and get prices down? One of the things that
0:49:37 > 0:49:40we are doing is insisting that the Big Six have to make more of their
0:49:40 > 0:49:44energy available into a pooling arrangement so that new businesses
0:49:44 > 0:49:47can come into this industry. The reason we have to do this is the
0:49:48 > 0:49:53last government abolished the polling arrangements and created
0:49:53 > 0:49:56the situation with the Big Six, and we don't need to ask who the energy
0:49:56 > 0:50:02secretary was during that government, we are looking at him!
0:50:02 > 0:50:07But was Ed Miliband, of course. Given the importance of carbon
0:50:07 > 0:50:13capture and storage, both as a way of reducing carbon emissions, and
0:50:13 > 0:50:18also as an exportable economy -- commodity, will Pallister put his
0:50:18 > 0:50:24words into action and ensure that the project goes ahead? -- will be
0:50:24 > 0:50:28Prime Minister step in? The funding we set aside is still there and
0:50:28 > 0:50:32will be made available. Clearly, the scheme is not working in the
0:50:32 > 0:50:42way that they intended, but the money from the Government for this
0:50:42 > 0:50:45
0:50:45 > 0:50:49vital technology is there. The huge financial risk provoked by a
0:50:49 > 0:50:54constant structural reorganisation, as in the NHS, would not be better
0:50:54 > 0:50:58if politicians learnt to muddle -- marriage more and medal less, even
0:50:58 > 0:51:01if governments find the matter easier and more interesting?
0:51:01 > 0:51:05Honourable Friend makes an important point. Let me pay tribute
0:51:05 > 0:51:08to the Right Honourable Gentleman, the Member for Horsham, who does
0:51:08 > 0:51:16this very patient work at the heart of government and does not always
0:51:16 > 0:51:21get recognised for it. Have reduced Government Management saving
0:51:21 > 0:51:25substantial amounts of money. We have spent �400 million less on
0:51:25 > 0:51:28marketing and advertising. That is an 80% reduction. These are serious
0:51:28 > 0:51:32changes to cut the cost of central government and make sure we provide
0:51:32 > 0:51:36good value for money. None of these things were done under the last
0:51:36 > 0:51:40government. Before the election, the Prime Minister claimed that
0:51:40 > 0:51:46anyone caught carrying a knife should expect to go to prison. As
0:51:46 > 0:51:51he read a book Kinsella's article in today's some revealing that all
0:51:51 > 0:51:54-- 40% of knife crime is carried out by under 18s. Why witty deliver
0:51:54 > 0:51:58on his promise and put them in jail? We are doing something that
0:51:58 > 0:52:01the Government previously failed to do, which is to create a mandatory
0:52:01 > 0:52:09sentence for adults who are caught with knives to make sure that
0:52:09 > 0:52:15happens. The Prime Minister will be aware that the British people are
0:52:15 > 0:52:20crying out for a referendum on the future of Europe. Will he please
0:52:20 > 0:52:23make history and follow the example of great prime ministers like
0:52:23 > 0:52:30Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher and give the British
0:52:30 > 0:52:34people the chance to vote on our future with the European Union?
0:52:34 > 0:52:38completely understand and share the frustration that many have about
0:52:38 > 0:52:43the way the European Union goes about its business, about the costs,
0:52:43 > 0:52:46about the bureaucracy. But I have to say, the key focus here is to
0:52:46 > 0:52:52get on top of the EU budget, keep Britain out of the bail-out schemes,
0:52:52 > 0:52:54make sure that the single market is working. Of course, we are
0:52:55 > 0:53:00committed as a Conservative Party, to the return of powers from
0:53:00 > 0:53:04lessons deux from Brussels. We are also committed as a government that
0:53:04 > 0:53:07if power passes from Westminster to Brussels, there would have to be a
0:53:07 > 0:53:12referendum. That promise is good for the whole of this Parliament
0:53:12 > 0:53:22and beyond. But I don't support holding a referendum come what may,
0:53:22 > 0:53:23
0:53:23 > 0:53:31that is not our policy, and I will not be supporting that nation.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34armed forces are courageous as they serve in Afghanistan. Last October,
0:53:34 > 0:53:39one of my constituency died in Helmand province. He was one of
0:53:39 > 0:53:45many who do -- paid the highest price to defend freedom. His
0:53:45 > 0:53:49commanding officer said, tap -- ", today there is a gap in our ranks
0:53:49 > 0:53:53we show ordinary man can fell". Can the Prime Minister ensure that a
0:53:53 > 0:53:58review is carried out into the way the Ministry of Defence prepares
0:53:58 > 0:54:01its honours list so that families will see that the entire nation
0:54:01 > 0:54:07recognises the sacrifice and the selflessness of these brave men and
0:54:07 > 0:54:11women? I will certainly look carefully at what the Honourable
0:54:11 > 0:54:16Gentleman says and perhaps arrange a meeting with him and the Minister
0:54:16 > 0:54:19for our veterans in these affairs, the Right Honourable Member. I
0:54:19 > 0:54:23think that would be a good thing to do. I have the highest possible
0:54:23 > 0:54:27regard for the professionalism and courage and dedication of our
0:54:27 > 0:54:34forces. We paid a high price in Afghanistan and in Iraq for what we
0:54:34 > 0:54:38have had to do there, and I think the whole country actually
0:54:38 > 0:54:41recognises that and feels that very strongly, and are looking for new
0:54:41 > 0:54:46ways to recognise what our armed forces do. That is why there is
0:54:46 > 0:54:49such strong support for help for heroes and for homecoming berates,
0:54:49 > 0:54:53for lists of honours, for the military government and all of
0:54:53 > 0:55:03those things. We should go on looking at what more we can do to
0:55:03 > 0:55:09recognise their service and sacrifice. Statements about eight
0:55:09 > 0:55:15European directive that applies to insulin dependent diabetics seize
0:55:15 > 0:55:19up to one million such people fearing for their driving licence.
0:55:19 > 0:55:23Isn't THAT it is the Department of Transport, and how it interprets
0:55:23 > 0:55:29this directive, that will determine whether or not someone loses their
0:55:29 > 0:55:34licence? Will the Prime Minister make the position clear? I quite
0:55:34 > 0:55:36understand my Honourable Friend's concern, and it is shared by many
0:55:36 > 0:55:40insulin treated diabetics right across the country who want to be
0:55:40 > 0:55:44able to go on a driving as freely as they have done in the past. I
0:55:44 > 0:55:48can reassure my Honourable Friend that relatively few insulin treated
0:55:48 > 0:55:52diabetics will lose their licence as a result of this directive, and
0:55:52 > 0:55:55the DVLA is going back to the European Commission to check his
0:55:55 > 0:56:02understanding and interpretation of the minimum standards of this
0:56:02 > 0:56:06directive, as we all know, on all sides of the house, on too many
0:56:06 > 0:56:12occasions departments gold plate directors, and bishops or -- they
0:56:12 > 0:56:15should stop this. The airports authorities to sell at an airport.
0:56:15 > 0:56:18Does the Prime Minister agree that it is important for the Scottish
0:56:18 > 0:56:22economy that we have as many direct international routes and services
0:56:22 > 0:56:25as possible. Why then does he not listen to the views of the four
0:56:25 > 0:56:30major airports and transport Scotland to wish to see the
0:56:30 > 0:56:35devolution of air passenger duty? We will listen Catholic to these
0:56:35 > 0:56:40arguments. The most important thing is that investment goes into the
0:56:40 > 0:56:43infrastructure of our airports. I know that first hand, Edinburgh
0:56:43 > 0:56:48Airport has superb facilities. In terms of air passenger duty, we
0:56:48 > 0:56:58will continue to listen to those arguments. It does the Prime us to
0:56:58 > 0:56:59
0:56:59 > 0:57:03agree with me that performing private schools should not only
0:57:03 > 0:57:08support state schools on an ad hoc basis, but we should go further and
0:57:08 > 0:57:14encourage them to federate them. This is, I think, a cross-party
0:57:15 > 0:57:21initiative. I pay tribute to Lord Adonis, who has made some extremely
0:57:21 > 0:57:25use of points on this issue. There is an opportunity for independent
0:57:25 > 0:57:30schools are to sponsor academies in the state sector. I think we can
0:57:30 > 0:57:35see them -- the breaking down of barriers between independent and
0:57:35 > 0:57:40state education. I hope it will have all party support. Mr Speaker,
0:57:40 > 0:57:43a change in the national targets regime and cuts have led to the
0:57:43 > 0:57:47emergency services in greater Manchester been in disarray. A
0:57:48 > 0:57:50stroke victim had to wait for an hour for an ambulance. The response
0:57:50 > 0:57:55time of the fire service has doubled in parts of Greater
0:57:55 > 0:57:58Manchester, and the police switchboard is in meltdown. What
0:57:58 > 0:58:01are reassurances can the Prime Minister give to the house that
0:58:01 > 0:58:05there won't be a tragic death because of this failure of the
0:58:05 > 0:58:11service? He I will that Catholic out what the Honourable Gentleman
0:58:11 > 0:58:15says. What I would say about health funding specifically is that we are
0:58:15 > 0:58:19carrying out the �20 billion efficiency savings suggested by the
0:58:20 > 0:58:23now shadow health secretary, but the difference between his party's
0:58:23 > 0:58:27points and our policy is that we are putting all of those savings
0:58:27 > 0:58:31back into the NHS. The official Labour position is that increasing
0:58:31 > 0:58:40spending on the NHS -- on the health service is irresponsible.
0:58:40 > 0:58:44Well, we think it is irresponsible not to increase spending.
0:58:44 > 0:58:53engineering firm in my constituency have been in receipt of a regional
0:58:53 > 0:58:58growth fund investment that will help to create 80 new jobs. Does
0:58:58 > 0:59:02the Prime Minister agree with made that, despite the doom mongering
0:59:02 > 0:59:07opposite, there are success stories out there, and with that in mind,
0:59:07 > 0:59:15will he consider coming to open the new innovation and enterprise
0:59:15 > 0:59:20centre at Huddersfield University in the spring? What a delightful
0:59:20 > 0:59:24invitation, and can I thank my Honourable Gentleman. I want to
0:59:24 > 0:59:28hear about the Primus of's travel plans to Huddersfield. I look
0:59:28 > 0:59:31forward to some travel plans to Huddersfield. The leader of the
0:59:31 > 0:59:40opposition's first lot of questions and the second lot were probably
0:59:40 > 0:59:44wrong. The answer the Prime Minister gave just is not good
0:59:44 > 0:59:48enough. The fact is, despite all his promises, fewer people caught
0:59:48 > 0:59:58carrying knives are going to prison under this Government than the last.
0:59:58 > 0:59:58
0:59:58 > 1:00:03Will he apologised to date to the bereaved families for breaking the
1:00:03 > 1:00:07promises he made for taking a tougher approach. I am full and
1:00:07 > 1:00:12admiration for this campaign. It is incredibly brave when you have lost
1:00:12 > 1:00:15a loss -- suffered a loss like that in your own family, when you
1:00:15 > 1:00:19campaigner for a change in the law, change in the way police behave,
1:00:19 > 1:00:23change in the way young people behave. She is a good individual
1:00:23 > 1:00:26with a great campaign. What we are doing under this Government, which
1:00:26 > 1:00:36the last government did not do, is have a mandatory sentence for knife
1:00:36 > 1:00:44
1:00:45 > 1:00:50crime, and that will be introduced Well my friends be recognising
1:00:50 > 1:00:55the... I was suddenly dry my honourable friend in that. This is
1:00:55 > 1:01:00an issue in which you take a close personal interest in this, Mr
1:01:00 > 1:01:02Speaker. Anybody who has brought it disabled children knows the vital
1:01:02 > 1:01:07work of Speech and Language therapists, that there are often
1:01:07 > 1:01:14not enough of them to provide vital services. Getting them through the
1:01:14 > 1:01:19services can be tough so I certainly agree with what he says.
1:01:20 > 1:01:23The Prime Minister knows that we know officials from other
1:01:23 > 1:01:28governments were given the impression that the former defence
1:01:29 > 1:01:36secretary's unofficial adviser represented the UK government's.
1:01:36 > 1:01:40How many people in total were misled and will who provide a list?
1:01:40 > 1:01:49Will be honourable gentleman should do is read the report by the
1:01:49 > 1:01:53Cabinet secretary and he will find all the details in there that he
1:01:53 > 1:01:57needs -- what the honourable gentleman should do. It comes from
1:01:57 > 1:02:00the party opposite when we know that the former defence secretary
1:02:01 > 1:02:10is working for a helicopter company, the former Home Secretary is
1:02:10 > 1:02:17working for a security firm, and even the former leader, in the last
1:02:17 > 1:02:27few months, he has cut �120,000 for speeches to a Swiss bank, visa and
1:02:27 > 1:02:32
1:02:32 > 1:02:41A Conservative MP for Wrekin. miles hear Mr Pritchard. Returning
1:02:41 > 1:02:50to Europe, does the Prime Minister accept that moves towards fiscal
1:02:51 > 1:02:55union within the eurozone will ultimately on -- ultimately
1:02:55 > 1:03:00undermine the single market? While we believe that the logic of a
1:03:00 > 1:03:04single currency drives the eurozone towards greater fiscal integration,
1:03:04 > 1:03:09this does pose particular threats and risks to those of us who want a
1:03:09 > 1:03:13single market to work properly. At the European Council this week, it
1:03:13 > 1:03:17is important to argue for safeguards to make sure that the
1:03:17 > 1:03:20single market remains robust and properly protected. That is what we
1:03:20 > 1:03:23must do in the short term. Of course, it may be that in the
1:03:24 > 1:03:26longer term, there will be moves towards further treaties and at
1:03:26 > 1:03:30that stage there may be opportunities to bring further
1:03:30 > 1:03:36powers back to Britain and there may be opportunities for a
1:03:36 > 1:03:39referendum but not, I believe, to hold a referendum willy-nilly in
1:03:39 > 1:03:48this Parliament when we have so much to do to get Europe to sort
1:03:48 > 1:03:52its problems out. Does the Staffordshire richer -- statutory
1:03:52 > 1:03:56register of lobbyists, will the promise to ensure that think-tanks,
1:03:56 > 1:04:02whose propaganda is aimed to manipulate both the public and
1:04:02 > 1:04:09ministers for their own ends, should be required to reveal Pooh
1:04:09 > 1:04:15funds them. -- to reveal who funds them. I think it needs to be put in
1:04:15 > 1:04:18place, the register and needs to include think tanks and other
1:04:18 > 1:04:23organisations as well as one of the biggest lobbies of all, the lobby
1:04:23 > 1:04:29that owns the party opposite, lock, stock and trade union barrel, the
1:04:29 > 1:04:33trade unions. The two Prime Minister's Questions over for
1:04:33 > 1:04:43another week. Plenty of jousting between the Leader of the
1:04:43 > 1:04:48Opposition, and the Prime pence -- Prime Minister and potential
1:04:48 > 1:04:52shopper waters over a referendum over Europe. We discussed Liam Fox
1:04:53 > 1:04:56before and it came up. How would you judge who had the best of those
1:04:56 > 1:05:03exchanges? Depressingly, I don't think either side did. I don't
1:05:03 > 1:05:06think Ed Miliband was particularly incisive asking his questions and I
1:05:07 > 1:05:11really don't think that Cameron engaged with it. I don't think by
1:05:11 > 1:05:17saying that he was too late is a particularly grown-up response to a
1:05:17 > 1:05:20serious issue. I think that is a score draw. That was the Prime
1:05:20 > 1:05:26Minister's attempt to draw a line under it and tell Ed Miliband that
1:05:26 > 1:05:33he is too late, Liam Fox has resigned. I think that was the
1:05:33 > 1:05:36problem with that, he wanted him to say that he should resign and he
1:05:36 > 1:05:41already had and that is I think what David Cameron was trying to
1:05:41 > 1:05:46save. On the border point, Ed Miliband's body language was
1:05:46 > 1:05:49strange because he looked almost defeated at certain points, Mikey
1:05:49 > 1:05:58wasn't engaging. That was a great opportunity and the Government has
1:05:58 > 1:06:01got into a pickle on this issue. One shot came back to David Cameron
1:06:01 > 1:06:05when he was quite dismissive of Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband looked a
1:06:05 > 1:06:09bit winded by the response. Every week I have the pleasure of sitting
1:06:09 > 1:06:13here and watching Prime Minister's Questions and there has always a
1:06:13 > 1:06:17battle about the economy. It never seems to get anywhere. More of the
1:06:17 > 1:06:24same today? Yes, inevitable that while we are in such difficult
1:06:24 > 1:06:28Financial Times up the economy will take centre stage. It is correct
1:06:28 > 1:06:32but what I don't see coming from the Labour benches at the moment is
1:06:32 > 1:06:40any clear idea that they know what would be the detail of their second
1:06:40 > 1:06:45plan. They say that ought to be won but let's see it. -- they say there
1:06:45 > 1:06:50ought to be a plan. This is something where we need sensible
1:06:50 > 1:06:55debate. Some kind of vision or leadership. If there is an
1:06:55 > 1:07:05alternative, let hear it. If not, shut up or put up. I last, nobly
1:07:05 > 1:07:07
1:07:07 > 1:07:16from the Labour Party here. -- nobody from the Labour Party. One
1:07:17 > 1:07:24representative said they can call their plan plan APlus. That so us
1:07:24 > 1:07:30like a vitamin. -- that sounds like a vitamin! The Labour Party say
1:07:31 > 1:07:34they do have an alternative. I do not see a cohesive alternative plan.
1:07:34 > 1:07:38That is what the point is. We have lots of different directions from
1:07:38 > 1:07:44the Labour benches with no sense that there is a strategic thought
1:07:44 > 1:07:48behind it, no sense that there is real direction and leadership and
1:07:48 > 1:07:53mutters the problem. He is driven by Ed Balls but perhaps Ed Balls
1:07:53 > 1:07:59does not command the same respect from his own side that is necessary
1:07:59 > 1:08:03in order to be a spokesperson for all of them. It is quite clear that
1:08:03 > 1:08:11he is not a spokesperson for the whole of his party and it is a real
1:08:11 > 1:08:21problem in terms of leadership. thought that he would be more
1:08:21 > 1:08:21
1:08:21 > 1:08:31incisive but we fought back on this. There is no plan as Eluned said
1:08:31 > 1:08:36there. People will look at Cameron they are doing what has to be done
1:08:36 > 1:08:41with no alternative inside. The and how much will we have to deal with
1:08:41 > 1:08:51this bickering? Will we take it back to who repealed the Corn Laws?
1:08:51 > 1:08:56We need to push this forwards. This time next week we will be
1:08:56 > 1:08:59talking about the same things, I suppose! Time to go back to mark
1:08:59 > 1:09:09where he is looking into the future will of broadcasting.
1:09:09 > 1:09:10
1:09:10 > 1:09:16It is correct, the media is on AMs' minds. We are joined by Ken skates
1:09:16 > 1:09:20from Labour and Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on the issue. I want
1:09:20 > 1:09:24to ask you what are the major problems facing the media at the
1:09:24 > 1:09:31moment? All sorts of problems. You have got to split them into various
1:09:31 > 1:09:40media. Broadcast has a crisis in the uncertainty regarding job cuts
1:09:40 > 1:09:46and then print media where a crisis of role and identity. And what we
1:09:46 > 1:09:52want to do is look at ideas. We already know the problems and what
1:09:52 > 1:09:59we want now is solutions. There must be crucial dialogue. Gethin
1:09:59 > 1:10:07Jenkins -- Gethin Jenkins, we know that 100 posts are said to go at
1:10:07 > 1:10:13bbc Wales, is the media on a downward trend in Wales? In terms
1:10:13 > 1:10:16of national media, we should be very concerned, especially with
1:10:16 > 1:10:21regard to the democratic deficit. If this programme disappears from
1:10:21 > 1:10:27our screens, hardly know the Assembly will be covered? These
1:10:27 > 1:10:31things we need to be discussing his this. The creative industries panel
1:10:31 > 1:10:36need to look at this, how the creative sector can think of need,
1:10:36 > 1:10:39innovative ideas, social enterprise to help enterprise start up
1:10:39 > 1:10:45businesses to think of solutions in what is a very difficult time for
1:10:45 > 1:10:51Wales. The into this mix comes the UK Government's Communications Bill.
1:10:51 > 1:10:55One key strand is this idea of localism, local TV energising local
1:10:55 > 1:11:00communities and local businesses. Is that a good idea? I think there
1:11:00 > 1:11:07should be a certain date of scepticism about this. Jeremy Hunt
1:11:07 > 1:11:13will talk about Alabama and Birmingham. It has quarter of
1:11:13 > 1:11:17Alabama population. We have got less than 3 million people in Wales.
1:11:17 > 1:11:21I am doubtful but this idea could survive outside Cardiff. Where it
1:11:21 > 1:11:25could potentially operate is where newspapers work together on a
1:11:25 > 1:11:30collaborative agenda but you would have to relax cross-media ownership
1:11:30 > 1:11:36rules by doing that and make sure that conglomerates could not form.
1:11:36 > 1:11:42Bethan, and a part of that bill is that there will not be any Welsh
1:11:42 > 1:11:46representative envisaged by Ofgem, the regulator. There is that a
1:11:46 > 1:11:49concern of Plaid Cymru? We believe that we should be devolving
1:11:50 > 1:11:53broadcasting and obviously the things that come with that
1:11:53 > 1:11:58regulation and we should devolve that area if we are not being
1:11:58 > 1:12:01represented on that panel. With regard to local TV, it is very
1:12:01 > 1:12:08disappointing to see the money is being taken from the licence fee to
1:12:09 > 1:12:13pay for this local TV. We see our national BBC and ITV authorities
1:12:13 > 1:12:16cuts happening and we need to be focusing on those priorities in
1:12:16 > 1:12:22some of diverting it to local television. We have caught the
1:12:22 > 1:12:27storm, two minutes ago it was fine! Another issue that you are
1:12:27 > 1:12:32concerned about is the funding for S 4 C, coming from the same pot as
1:12:32 > 1:12:40licence fee payers. In a time of public sector cuts, does that not
1:12:40 > 1:12:44make sense? For we need to make sure that it can be creative and
1:12:44 > 1:12:47flexible given these stark funding cuts and make sure that we have
1:12:47 > 1:12:52full independence for S 4 C and they don't think that is happening
1:12:52 > 1:12:56so I will be pushing that in the debate to ensure that it remains
1:12:56 > 1:13:02independent. Jumping around the issue because so much to discuss,
1:13:02 > 1:13:11not just about content and funding, equipping ourselves for the digital
1:13:11 > 1:13:14future and is that a real problem? Yes, we must be able to compete in
1:13:14 > 1:13:18the world. You have got to make sure that we have the
1:13:18 > 1:13:22infrastructure in place that enables services to compete with
1:13:22 > 1:13:28any other country. We will await the debate with interest. Apologies
1:13:28 > 1:13:33to both to being soaking wet, it was not the plan!
1:13:33 > 1:13:42Whooping a storm up outside the Assembly. We have got two concerned
1:13:42 > 1:13:47guests on the sofa because they are heading out to the front of The
1:13:47 > 1:13:57Senedd for an Assembly Members photograph. Take your coat and so
1:13:57 > 1:13:58
1:13:58 > 1:14:04Western's! -- and your wet weather coats. Nick Ramsay, concerns raised
1:14:04 > 1:14:11there, do you share those? Yes, we show those a lot about how we
1:14:11 > 1:14:15deliver the services that need to be. Bath and mentioned -- Bethan
1:14:15 > 1:14:18mentioned the coverage of this place. If nobody is watching and
1:14:18 > 1:14:22nobody is engaging with our a activity in the Chamber, we have
1:14:22 > 1:14:27got a problem. It is also important to the idea of democracy that
1:14:27 > 1:14:31people are able to see what goes on in this political institutions,
1:14:31 > 1:14:36understand that, get some decent critical analysis of it to help
1:14:36 > 1:14:42them understand the political processes. If you are going to cut
1:14:42 > 1:14:45back on the independence of the press, cut back on the amount of
1:14:45 > 1:14:51coverage there is of the political system in Wales, you will cut back
1:14:51 > 1:14:57on the coverage of people's understanding of things in Wales
1:14:57 > 1:15:02and that is my issue. Looking at the written press, Ken skates, we
1:15:02 > 1:15:06used to work for the same company in North Wales and the newspapers I
1:15:06 > 1:15:10worked on were a very handy tool for politicians because you could
1:15:10 > 1:15:15send stuff in, get in the paper, get seen. If newspapers are
1:15:15 > 1:15:20disappearing, that is bad news for you guys, isn't it? Of local
1:15:21 > 1:15:26newspapers disappear it is bad news for everybody because it is a
1:15:26 > 1:15:30really effective tool for keeping communities together and part of
1:15:30 > 1:15:35but is by looking at elected members, whether they be
1:15:35 > 1:15:38councillors because the local press are almost the only place for local
1:15:39 > 1:15:42councillors to be held to account. That is an important thing to bear
1:15:42 > 1:15:46in mind. Not just about the politics but the rest of the
1:15:46 > 1:15:55committee. What is going on in local schools, local community
1:15:55 > 1:16:00events, community businesses. That is want of... You rely heavily on
1:16:00 > 1:16:04the local press and people are not always aware of that. It is
1:16:04 > 1:16:09difficult to who imagine how I could do my job in my constituency
1:16:09 > 1:16:13without the local press. What is the approach of people in your
1:16:13 > 1:16:23constituencies? How do they get their news? Do they talk about the
1:16:23 > 1:16:26
1:16:26 > 1:16:35Yes, at the local papers, it is like you hear the old adage that
1:16:35 > 1:16:39Wales is a big village. If you go to my area, it is through the local
1:16:39 > 1:16:44papers that that very local focus happens. It does not happen through
1:16:44 > 1:16:49broadcasters. They do their best, but in a way they can't do that. I
1:16:49 > 1:16:52honestly can't see how I do my job, as I do it, and get that coverage
1:16:52 > 1:16:56in the constituency without the local press. And yet we all know
1:16:56 > 1:16:59that newspaper sales have fallen. Not quite as bad with local press
1:16:59 > 1:17:03as with the national press, but what they need as much support as
1:17:03 > 1:17:10we can give them. I suppose there is a question to ask about the
1:17:10 > 1:17:16merit of news, you know, we have half an hour of news on an evening
1:17:16 > 1:17:20on BBC One Wales and ITV Wales and S4C, does what happens here merit
1:17:20 > 1:17:29the time that it gets on the news? Should you get more or should it
1:17:29 > 1:17:32get less? It is difficult now, having come into I have seen how
1:17:33 > 1:17:36the Assembly works. The things that I think ought to have more coverage
1:17:36 > 1:17:40of things like the business that goes on in committee so that people
1:17:40 > 1:17:44can understand that it is not just about be ding-dong that they see in
1:17:44 > 1:17:49the Chamber, but there is a lot more going on behind the scenes.
1:17:49 > 1:17:53That is very under-reported in any form of media, it has to be said,
1:17:53 > 1:17:58apart from Democracy Live where they can access that. We actually
1:17:58 > 1:18:06worked together a fair bit, don't we? Believe it or not! We do, we
1:18:06 > 1:18:09talk to each other. On purpose, and through the committee structures
1:18:09 > 1:18:13where we work in a less partisan basis. We tried to put the issues
1:18:13 > 1:18:19first. I would love people to see more of that. I know you must go
1:18:19 > 1:18:22now. Don't forget your coats. The former Cabinet minister Lord Morris
1:18:22 > 1:18:28of Aberavon has published his autobiography, 50 Years in Politics
1:18:28 > 1:18:33and the Law. He served in the Cabinet if for three Prime
1:18:33 > 1:18:35Ministers and was an MP for over 40 years. He joins me on the am.pm so
1:18:36 > 1:18:41there yesterday, and I began by asking him why he entered politics
1:18:41 > 1:18:50and why he chose the Labour Party. I was always interested in politics
1:18:50 > 1:18:55as a young boy at university. I wanted to do two things, which I
1:18:55 > 1:18:58spell out very briefly in my book. I am not given to philosophising. I
1:18:58 > 1:19:02wanted to bring government closer to the people of Wales and to work
1:19:02 > 1:19:09on it. We did not talk about devolution. It was not a word that
1:19:09 > 1:19:16we used. I also wanted to see a measure of social justice and
1:19:16 > 1:19:21striving for equality. Those were the two aims. As regards the second,
1:19:21 > 1:19:24the Labour Party was obviously the party to go to. As regards the
1:19:24 > 1:19:28first, of bringing government closer to the people of Wales, no
1:19:28 > 1:19:38other party, except a party that had a majority in Westminster,
1:19:38 > 1:19:39
1:19:39 > 1:19:47could do that, and that was only the Labour Party. You were involved
1:19:47 > 1:19:50in the build up and the Yes campaign in the 1979 referendum, a
1:19:50 > 1:19:55referendum in which your side of the argument was defeated. Since
1:19:55 > 1:19:59then, obviously, devolution has moved on. What do you think change
1:19:59 > 1:20:05for the people of Wales who eventually said yes to devolution?
1:20:05 > 1:20:09In my time had not worked properly to prepare the ground. My party was
1:20:09 > 1:20:17not united. There was the winter of discontent when bodies were waiting
1:20:17 > 1:20:22to be buried in chapels in Newport, and we did not have a fire service.
1:20:22 > 1:20:28There was a complete industrial disaster so it was the wrong time.
1:20:28 > 1:20:33Perhaps I should have worked harder. I did not work enough to unite my
1:20:33 > 1:20:37party and prepare the ground. When you see an elephant on your
1:20:37 > 1:20:41doorstep, you know it is there. Since that time, we had 18 years in
1:20:41 > 1:20:47opposition. We had the Thatcher government. We had John Redwood,
1:20:47 > 1:20:53the Secretary of State. There was a realisation that the industrial
1:20:53 > 1:20:58problems of the 80s and 90s that devolution was one way of
1:20:58 > 1:21:01ameliorating the difficulties that we faced as regards employment,
1:21:02 > 1:21:06spending on the social services, and bringing justice to the people.
1:21:06 > 1:21:11There was a complete change around in mind. I don't know of any
1:21:11 > 1:21:15serious politician today who is opposed to devolution. He said you
1:21:15 > 1:21:18wished you had worked harder. It is fascinating to have a politician
1:21:18 > 1:21:23sitting on this sofa, being so honest. Is that they regret of
1:21:23 > 1:21:29yours? Yes, a deep regret. I was working my fingers to the bone. I
1:21:29 > 1:21:34was running wild with only two Parliamentary Secretaries. Now
1:21:34 > 1:21:38there is a whole Government doing the same thing -- running Wales. I
1:21:38 > 1:21:44had a responsibility for all the services in Wales, and winning new
1:21:44 > 1:21:50powers every year. We were very new attic. Industry, agriculture,
1:21:50 > 1:21:53education. A whole range of issues, and now they are the building
1:21:53 > 1:21:59blocks of the new Assembly. I was working my fingers to the bone. It
1:21:59 > 1:22:04was a very long day. Six years' hard work. I would not recommend it,
1:22:04 > 1:22:08but I did not work hard enough politically. The devolution process
1:22:08 > 1:22:15has developed over time that we just discussed. How much further do
1:22:16 > 1:22:19you see it going? Well, I believe a great opportunity was missed in not
1:22:19 > 1:22:28bringing Welsh language broadcasting within the purview of
1:22:28 > 1:22:32the Assembly. I made a speech on that, so I believe that is crying
1:22:32 > 1:22:36out. We missed an opportunity when there was plenty of money about and
1:22:36 > 1:22:41we could have come -- could have had compensation to the Welsh
1:22:41 > 1:22:48Assembly for financing S4C. Secondly, the interface between the
1:22:48 > 1:22:55police services, the county councils and the social services is
1:22:55 > 1:22:58also crying out for devolution. served under three Prime Ministers.
1:22:58 > 1:23:04The obvious question would be to ask you, who was your favourite,
1:23:04 > 1:23:09but I will ask you the opposite - who was your least favourite?
1:23:09 > 1:23:15I put it this way, who did I work closer to? I never felt I was
1:23:15 > 1:23:21working close to Tony Blair. I was an independent Attorney General,
1:23:21 > 1:23:25trying to workout according to the rule of law what was correct, legal
1:23:25 > 1:23:32and proper. Perhaps I was not always popular in Number Ten
1:23:32 > 1:23:36Downing Street for that. I had to run the legal side of Kosovo. For
1:23:36 > 1:23:4068 days they came with me -- came to meet with their military targets
1:23:40 > 1:23:45and I had to give the go-ahead. Under Harold Wilson, of course, I
1:23:45 > 1:23:52was very close to him. And Jim Callaghan was a Welsh Member of
1:23:52 > 1:24:00Parliament, and they were more my generation. I just sent a book to
1:24:00 > 1:24:08Harold Wilson's widow who is 91. We worked very closely and were both -
1:24:08 > 1:24:13- they were both terribly kind to me. You spoke as -- about your time
1:24:13 > 1:24:18as Attorney General when there was a mix of both your professions in
1:24:18 > 1:24:22politics did you find offering legal advice in that situation, and
1:24:22 > 1:24:26moving on in time, how pleased were you not to have to do that job
1:24:26 > 1:24:31during the time that the country went to war with Iraq? I was very
1:24:31 > 1:24:36pleased. I don't judge my predecessors all my successors. It
1:24:36 > 1:24:41is for others to judge. But I tried to do it by the book. I gave the
1:24:41 > 1:24:48advice - I was breaking new ground. International legal law is much
1:24:48 > 1:24:55more constructive, it is not so clear, and I had to authorise air
1:24:55 > 1:25:03attacks in Kosovo on a daily basis. That, according to what I thought
1:25:03 > 1:25:07was the right way of doing it without the United Nations approval.
1:25:07 > 1:25:11Or Security Council approval, I should say. When you have ethnic
1:25:11 > 1:25:15cleansing on the scale in Kosovo, where thousands and thousands of
1:25:15 > 1:25:19people are moved from their homes because of their background,
1:25:19 > 1:25:23religion and ethnicity, then that something has to be done. Add to be
1:25:24 > 1:25:27very simple view. If there is a burglar attacking your home and
1:25:27 > 1:25:31raping members of your family, and the police constable would
1:25:31 > 1:25:33intervene, there is no time to go to the chief constable or to the
1:25:33 > 1:25:39Standing Joint Committee. You have got to do something, otherwise it
1:25:39 > 1:25:42will be too late. Some of us, even though we were only children, know
1:25:42 > 1:25:46about the Holocaust and the background of ethnic cleansing in
1:25:46 > 1:25:50the past, it still haunts us, even though we were not there to realise
1:25:50 > 1:25:53what was happening. Finally, you are still in politics and still a
1:25:53 > 1:25:59member of the House of Lords. Is there any unfinished business that
1:25:59 > 1:26:04you would like to do? I am winding down. I am nearly 80, but I have
1:26:04 > 1:26:08just finished a long stint of the scrutiny of the defamation Bill. I
1:26:08 > 1:26:16am only a criminal lawyer, not a defamation lawyer, and that was
1:26:16 > 1:26:20really hard work. Hours of reading. I think that will be my last stint
1:26:20 > 1:26:25on a major committee. Thank you very much for joining us.
1:26:25 > 1:26:30Thank you. The issue of the influence of
1:26:30 > 1:26:33lobbyists in the light of Dr Liam Fox's resignation came up at Prime
1:26:33 > 1:26:37Minister's Questions with the Prime Minister saying he was committed to
1:26:37 > 1:26:41a register of lobbyists at Westminster. But what is the
1:26:41 > 1:26:46situation here in Cardiff Bay? I'm joined by Gareth Hughes, who has
1:26:46 > 1:26:52come in from the rain to speak to us. What is the situation here? Do
1:26:52 > 1:26:56we know who is doing the lobbying? No, we don't. Before they build the
1:26:56 > 1:27:01new Senedd building, they used to be a milling area in the old Senedd
1:27:01 > 1:27:04way you could see these lobbyists. They were ready to pounce on
1:27:04 > 1:27:08Assembly Members. We knew roughly who they were. But now we don't
1:27:08 > 1:27:12know. It becomes more important because now this place has law-
1:27:12 > 1:27:18making powers. We know that in the planning Bill going through
1:27:18 > 1:27:21Westminster, the lobbying firms have actually paid for a lot of
1:27:21 > 1:27:25access to ministers. When there is an important Bill going through
1:27:25 > 1:27:29this place, will be no other there is access to ministers happening?
1:27:29 > 1:27:36Know. We don't have any knowledge at all. Something needs to happen
1:27:37 > 1:27:40here. There could be a misuse. interviewed a Rhodri Morgan on this
1:27:40 > 1:27:44subject and he said that he did not see that there was any need for
1:27:44 > 1:27:47lobbyists because if a constituent wanted to speak to him about any
1:27:47 > 1:27:52matter, they could just make an appointment to speak to him. He
1:27:52 > 1:27:56felt that lobbying was not as prevalent. Well, there are lobbying
1:27:57 > 1:28:01firms working in Wales, we know that. What we -- what they do, we
1:28:01 > 1:28:05don't know. They should not be a need. There is open access to
1:28:05 > 1:28:09members here. But what we don't know is how many people access
1:28:09 > 1:28:15these members, how many people access ministers, how often they
1:28:15 > 1:28:20meet, where they meet, and what the subject of discussion is. There
1:28:20 > 1:28:24could be undue influence born on ministers and on backbenchers, too.
1:28:25 > 1:28:28We need to know. That is why the register could be important. And if
1:28:28 > 1:28:34there is no register, there is an opportunity for the likes of us to
1:28:34 > 1:28:38ask questions? Yes, but he would you ask questions to? We are not