22/06/2011

:00:25. > :00:29.Good morning, welcome to the programme. It is like waiting for a

:00:29. > :00:33.bus here at the Senedd this week. The government made for

:00:33. > :00:39.announcements this week which gives us plenty to talk about. What will

:00:39. > :00:46.the impact over the Welsh government's decision to put on

:00:46. > :00:49.hold eight badger cull be? And we will be there for David Cameron and

:00:49. > :00:56.Ed Miliband's Prime Minister's Questions.

:00:56. > :01:06.And I will be discussing the route map on how Wales is funded.

:01:06. > :01:09.

:01:09. > :01:16.Joining me, two newcomers to the sofa. One, a new AM and one, not so

:01:16. > :01:19.new. It is the former Presiding Officer. First, controversial plans

:01:19. > :01:24.for a badger cull in west Wales have been put on hold while at the

:01:24. > :01:28.review is carried out. The Welsh government says an independent part

:01:28. > :01:38.of experts will examine the science. It had been part of an attempt by

:01:38. > :01:38.

:01:38. > :01:43.the previous Labour Plaid Cymru coalition to combat bovine TB.

:01:43. > :01:45.The order is still in effect. What we have said is that we will not

:01:45. > :01:49.have a call for the period of the review because we wish to be

:01:49. > :01:54.informed by that review by independent exercise as to the best

:01:54. > :01:59.way forward. We think that is the most responsible attitude in

:01:59. > :02:02.dealing with what is a very, very difficult problem that has strong

:02:02. > :02:07.feeling a rounded in the farming communities but also in the general

:02:07. > :02:12.public. Let's gauge the feeling of a bit

:02:12. > :02:16.too AMs on the sofa. What do you make of the decision yesterday?

:02:16. > :02:21.Disappointment, I think, for Welsh farmers. How many scientific

:02:21. > :02:28.reviews do we need? It is not so long ago that he agreed that we

:02:28. > :02:34.plan a way forward. 92 days ago. And here we are back to square one.

:02:34. > :02:38.It is a serious issue for the farmers. There is a concern that

:02:38. > :02:44.the longer there is a delay before any cull happens, the longer that

:02:44. > :02:50.TB can spread and fester? Of course. My concern is that we had three

:02:50. > :02:55.votes which were identical. We had issues in the High Court but

:02:55. > :02:58.clearly, the decision of that Assembly was to go ahead. Now that

:02:58. > :03:04.we are a minority Welsh Labour government, they have decided to

:03:04. > :03:09.tear up what was a basic part of the one Wales agreement without

:03:09. > :03:14.concern for either the proper science for the milk industry are

:03:14. > :03:22.for the environment. Quite frankly, I think it is a very bad example of

:03:22. > :03:26.a successor government reneging on the job of the previous Cabinet. I

:03:26. > :03:33.also lay blame on my own party. Were we still in government, I

:03:33. > :03:36.promise you this would not have happened. That is the nature of

:03:36. > :03:41.politics. Your party are turning up lots of things that the previous

:03:41. > :03:51.Labour government did, that is the government's prerogative, isn't it?

:03:51. > :03:51.

:03:51. > :03:58.It just demonstrates huge, indecisive Labour government in

:03:58. > :04:04.Wales. Why is that? You will have to ask them. I suspect they have

:04:04. > :04:11.new members questioning their policy. Why do you think his

:04:11. > :04:14.decision has been taken? The usual excuses, but this was in the

:04:14. > :04:20.manifestos and they had to do something. While I am concerned

:04:20. > :04:25.about is what is happening to the Welsh science advice on this issue.

:04:25. > :04:32.I will look forward to was the National Trust have organised just

:04:32. > :04:36.over the water. I have no objection to looking for other ways of

:04:36. > :04:43.controlling TB in badgers but I was convinced by the scientific

:04:43. > :04:52.evidence, led by a very distinguished wealth -- Welsh vet.

:04:52. > :04:55.She knows the signs of Environment will control and support. -- the

:04:55. > :05:05.size of environmentally controlled. I wonder how many people who

:05:05. > :05:08.

:05:08. > :05:14.complain about this know about the distress in farming families when a

:05:14. > :05:19.herd is wiped out, sometimes more than once. I am convinced this is a

:05:19. > :05:25.politically motivated short-term decision by a minister to delay

:05:25. > :05:31.this matter. What has the chief scientific adviser got to

:05:31. > :05:37.contribute? He is not a vet. We did ask him to come under he was not

:05:37. > :05:44.available. I am sure this is a story that will run. We may walk --

:05:44. > :05:48.talk about it again. Let's find out what is happening in the said.

:05:48. > :05:53.The Oriel is very busy this morning. People are looking forward to this

:05:53. > :05:57.afternoon. We start with questions to ministers. This time it is the

:05:57. > :06:01.finance minister and the business minister. We will then have a

:06:01. > :06:08.statement from the local government minister, coral Sergeant, on the

:06:08. > :06:12.Boundary Commission. There is a debate on the controversial

:06:12. > :06:16.technical advice note under which wind farms and the like are

:06:16. > :06:21.established. We have seen protests outside the Assembly in recent

:06:21. > :06:26.times on this. The Conservatives want that to be reviewed and what a

:06:26. > :06:31.moratorium on projects like this until it just happened. -- What a

:06:31. > :06:36.moratorium. There is a debate on transport. Conservatives favour

:06:36. > :06:39.things are taking too long and costing too much. Things are likely

:06:39. > :06:45.to get worse because we are expecting cuts to the capital

:06:45. > :06:52.budget of about 41% over four years. That is the Budget from which roads

:06:52. > :07:00.are funded. At the end of the afternoon, Plaid Cymru have a

:07:00. > :07:07.debate on their idea for a not-for- profit company to raise investment

:07:07. > :07:10.for roads, schools and infrastructure.

:07:10. > :07:20.Mark explain what is going on in the Assembly is afternoon but you

:07:20. > :07:21.

:07:21. > :07:25.can find out even more on the website.

:07:25. > :07:35.That is the Senedd scene. What is the Westminster picture today?

:07:35. > :07:39.Thomas can tell us was stopped --. We will talk about Carwyn Jones'

:07:39. > :07:43.route map, his idea for the Assembly funding this morning.

:07:43. > :07:50.There has been plenty of reaction here, what is the reaction in

:07:50. > :07:56.Westminster? Yesterday, Carwyn Jones set out his wish-list, asking

:07:56. > :08:02.for things like landfill tax, passenger duty, and so on. He asked

:08:02. > :08:05.for parity at least on corporation tax. Welsh MPs were asking the

:08:05. > :08:15.Treasury team about this yesterday and it was interesting to hear

:08:15. > :08:19.George Osborne saying, well, he referred to the Calman Commission,

:08:19. > :08:23.and made the point that went the Calman Commission was looking at

:08:23. > :08:33.Scotland, three are before parties came to a consensus about Scottish

:08:33. > :08:34.

:08:34. > :08:38.Power's. -- three out of four parties. Hopefully, Wales can do

:08:38. > :08:42.this as well, they were saying. Before we have Prime Minister's

:08:42. > :08:47.Questions in the Commons today, there are Scottish questions. Some

:08:47. > :08:52.Welsh MPs have put down questions, asking about corporation tax and

:08:52. > :08:56.asking whether that should be devolved to Scotland. This is to

:08:56. > :09:01.raise the issue of whether it should be devolved to Wales as well.

:09:01. > :09:07.A general feeling amongst Wales MPs who may be sceptical about further

:09:07. > :09:12.Paris for the Welsh Assembly Government that they see merit in

:09:12. > :09:17.this argument that Carwyn Jones is making, that corporation tax powers

:09:17. > :09:24.handed to Edinburgh and Belfast should come to Cardiff as well.

:09:24. > :09:27.That is one to watch this morning. Let's head abroad to Afghanistan.

:09:27. > :09:31.There seems to be a suggestion that the Prime Minister is on a

:09:31. > :09:40.collision course over it -- with are reduced over Britain's future

:09:40. > :09:44.in the country? -- army chiefs. This all started last week when

:09:44. > :09:49.some of the Navy and RAF achieves it told MPs privately that they

:09:49. > :09:56.thought maybe the NATO mission in Libya was not sustainable beyond

:09:56. > :10:01.September. Surprisingly, these remarks find their ways into the

:10:01. > :10:05.paper! We were taken aback yesterday when David Cameron had

:10:05. > :10:10.his monthly press conference. He was asked about this and he said,

:10:10. > :10:14.sometimes every day newspapers and I think, you do the fighting and I

:10:14. > :10:19.will do the talking. Not everyone thinks that is perhaps the best way

:10:19. > :10:22.of having good relations with the military chiefs, although he is not

:10:22. > :10:27.the first Prime Minister to run into this sort of problem with the

:10:27. > :10:34.top brass. I am sure this will come up in Prime Minister's Questions.

:10:34. > :10:38.It could get worse before David Cameron in that the general chief-

:10:38. > :10:43.of-staff is a BBC documentary this evening were he suggests that the

:10:43. > :10:49.timetable for withdrawing from Afghanistan could be changed. David

:10:49. > :10:55.Cameron once British troops to come out by 2015. There is a opportunity

:10:55. > :11:01.for made Bella band -- an opportunity for Ed Miliband to

:11:01. > :11:07.suggest that David Cameron is not in control. Tory backbenchers are

:11:07. > :11:17.unhappy that those generals have been straying onto political turf.

:11:17. > :11:27.Let's go to assaults on the Government's decision to postpone

:11:27. > :11:30.

:11:30. > :11:33.the badger cull. -- what are your thoughts?

:11:33. > :11:37.The First Minister has laid out his route map for the way it Wales

:11:37. > :11:46.should be funded in the future. He favours borrowing and taxation

:11:46. > :11:51.powers. I have got a couple of guests, but

:11:51. > :12:01.there is also a quiet here, so you will know what it is. I am joined

:12:01. > :12:02.

:12:02. > :12:07.by the Labour AM for Pontypridd, and the Plaid Cymru AM, Mr Jones.

:12:07. > :12:11.We covered a range of things yesterday. Carwyn Jones was to see

:12:11. > :12:19.reform of the Barnett formula, additional borrowing Paris for

:12:19. > :12:24.Wales, at landfill tax, stamp duty, the aggregates luvvie, -- levy, air

:12:24. > :12:34.passenger duty to vault. What did you make of this? This was a

:12:34. > :12:35.

:12:35. > :12:41.complete replacement for Barnet. We have a very unfair if Formula which

:12:41. > :12:47.means it needs to be changed as quickly as possible. -- funding

:12:47. > :12:52.formula. Borrowing is the most important issue. There are dangers

:12:52. > :12:58.from robbing revenue to finance borrowing. We are looking at income

:12:58. > :13:02.streams. There is a consensus on Barnet. The First Minister referred

:13:02. > :13:06.to it. There may be disagreements around the edges but everyone in

:13:06. > :13:13.the Chamber wants to see it reformed, don't they? That is true

:13:13. > :13:16.but where have they been for the past 12 years? When they were in

:13:16. > :13:22.London they could have done something about it but they refused

:13:22. > :13:32.to acknowledge that Barnett was even unfair and it was only after

:13:32. > :13:32.

:13:32. > :13:39.we established an inquiry... Is it is gone now? But what is the

:13:39. > :13:44.official view of Ed Balls in this? If they say that the Labour Party

:13:44. > :13:48.agree on this, that would give it legitimacy but at the moment, there

:13:48. > :13:53.is no indication that the Labour Party in the UK has changed its

:13:53. > :13:57.view. We are all supportive of a change for Barnet because that is

:13:57. > :14:07.what we have been arguing for for 12 years. I would say the same

:14:07. > :14:08.

:14:08. > :14:09.about taxes. If you look at the Labour Party manifesto, and it

:14:09. > :14:15.Carwyn Jones keeps referring to it, the only thing about tax raising

:14:15. > :14:20.powers there is is that we will not seek to gain any Paris in terms of

:14:20. > :14:23.income tax. We have shifted rapidly and the policy seems to be whatever

:14:23. > :14:33.Northern Ireland and Scotland once, we wanted as well even if we do not

:14:33. > :14:34.

:14:34. > :14:38.really want it. Do we want -- let's move on to borrowing. Yann Lyn

:14:38. > :14:48.Jones identified a key problem yesterday. If you want to borrow

:14:48. > :14:51.

:14:51. > :14:55.money you have to pay it back. think in the housing field, there

:14:55. > :15:00.is a guaranteed housing -- income stream and we could have a much

:15:00. > :15:07.more radical programme using different mechanisms. How do we pay

:15:07. > :15:11.back in the future? You pay it back because you have an income stream.

:15:11. > :15:14.We are talking about affordable housing of the generation of people

:15:14. > :15:19.who will never get on to the mortgage ladder, that is what we

:15:19. > :15:23.are concerned with. It is a guaranteed industry. That is what

:15:23. > :15:29.private companies do and there is no reason why December lit --

:15:29. > :15:35.Assembly could not do something similar. I made these points in my

:15:35. > :15:39.election campaign. Income tax is a particularly complex problem for

:15:39. > :15:45.his. We have said in our manifesto that we are not going to go for

:15:45. > :15:49.income tax powers. There are put it -- particular problems would it.

:15:49. > :15:59.we need to go for income tax raising powers, when the government

:15:59. > :16:04.

:16:04. > :16:08.have made it clear they do not want What we don't have a that clear

:16:08. > :16:13.vision from the First Minister up. We should be looking at it and

:16:13. > :16:23.seeing it as part of a longer term process. A whole range of things to

:16:23. > :16:25.

:16:25. > :16:28.digest there. Thank you very much. Still to come on AM-PM:

:16:28. > :16:32.We'll be going live to the House of Commons for Prime Minister's

:16:32. > :16:37.Questions. That's at midday. Before that, we'll take a look back

:16:37. > :16:40.at some of First Minister's Questions in the Senedd yesterday.

:16:40. > :16:43.Under the new guidance from the new Presiding Officer, Rosemary Butler,

:16:43. > :16:48.the three opposition party leaders get the chance to question Carwyn

:16:49. > :16:51.Jones in turn. Plaid Cymru's Ieuan Wyn Jones was up first. He accused

:16:52. > :17:00.the First Minister of being short on policy detail, in particular on

:17:00. > :17:03.health. What I am finding it's strange

:17:03. > :17:08.about this is that it is only one I'm asking you questions about it

:17:08. > :17:11.that you are telling us what your health policies. Isn't it the

:17:11. > :17:15.responsibility of the Government to come to this Assembly and actually

:17:15. > :17:21.tell us what their policy agenda is rather than expecting leaders of

:17:21. > :17:29.opposition parties to drag it out of you week after week after week.

:17:29. > :17:33.Can I say to you, First Minister, that it is a major challenge to

:17:33. > :17:41.deliver the health policy you have set out in your manifesto because

:17:41. > :17:46.we already know that in real terms, despite the fact that in cash terms

:17:46. > :17:51.it stands to the Budget, in real terms there are going to be cuts.

:17:51. > :17:54.We are seeing waiting lists getting longer, the centralisation of

:17:54. > :17:59.services in district general hospitals, within health boards,

:17:59. > :18:02.and Wales is behind the game on cancer care and stroke care. Can

:18:02. > :18:08.you really tell us what your agenda is going to be to deal with those

:18:08. > :18:18.issues over the next five years? The budget he criticises is the

:18:18. > :18:24.budget he supported in government. He cannot have it both ways. He

:18:24. > :18:33.says we have no policy, I would be happy to send him a copy of our

:18:33. > :18:37.manifesto. He will see their the commitment to GPs' services. I

:18:37. > :18:43.don't think it is fair to say that somehow this is something we have

:18:43. > :18:47.kept secret. Let's deal with this seriously. Let's really deal with

:18:47. > :18:51.this seriously. I have made it clear to you that I am prepared to

:18:51. > :18:54.defend the Budget I agreed in government with you as long as I

:18:54. > :18:59.know what policies you are going to deliver to make sure that you can

:18:59. > :19:02.keep within that budget. Let's put that to one side. I have made it

:19:02. > :19:06.clear that I am very happy to be supporting that budget, provided I

:19:06. > :19:10.know what you are going to deliver. The problem is, I don't know what

:19:10. > :19:14.you're going to deliver. You are not prepared to come to this

:19:14. > :19:17.Assembly with a programme for government that we can challenge

:19:17. > :19:21.and scrutinised. I don't think it is the responsibility of opposition

:19:21. > :19:25.leaders to drag out of you week after week what you are going to do

:19:25. > :19:29.on health service. Let me ask you a question about your delivery. Are

:19:29. > :19:32.you going to be coming to your Assembly before you set up that

:19:32. > :19:39.delivery unit, the policy you expect that delivery unit to

:19:39. > :19:43.monitor? But delivery unit will be there to make sure that the

:19:43. > :19:46.Government's programme is followed through. That is why it is there.

:19:46. > :19:51.Secondly, you will know from the Government's manifesto what our

:19:51. > :19:55.plans are for health. That is quite clear. We have published a

:19:55. > :19:59.programme for legislation last week, a comprehensive programme, and we

:19:59. > :20:02.will publish a fuller programme in terms of our plans for legislation

:20:02. > :20:05.before the summer recess and I think that puts us in a good

:20:05. > :20:09.position in terms of presenting a programme for the people of Wales

:20:09. > :20:16.in all areas, combining our manifesto with a fiscal statement

:20:16. > :20:22.which will be made this afternoon. Of course, I understand you're

:20:22. > :20:26.going to make a statement on fiscal powers. You have made an initial

:20:26. > :20:31.statement on legislation. But I specifically tackle due today on

:20:31. > :20:35.health. I see that you want to talk about other issues. Let me

:20:35. > :20:40.concentrate on health. 40 % of your budget is going to be spent on

:20:41. > :20:44.health in the next five years. You have not given me, today, what I

:20:44. > :20:49.would describe as a comprehensive policy agenda to deliver against

:20:49. > :20:53.that for a five-year term. I am asking you again, because otherwise

:20:53. > :20:57.we are going to rapidly come to the belief that your policy cupboard is

:20:57. > :21:02.entirely bare. How are you going to tell us, are you going to set out

:21:02. > :21:08.on the floor of this chamber a comprehensive programme to deliver

:21:08. > :21:13.better healthcare for the people of Wales, yes or no? Yes, it is in our

:21:13. > :21:18.manifesto. We want to make sure that accident and emergency waiting

:21:18. > :21:21.times are reduced, that ambulance hand over times are reduced, that

:21:21. > :21:24.we are upgrade in the ambulance fleet in time, that waiting times

:21:25. > :21:29.continue to drop, that we can be compared favourably with England

:21:29. > :21:32.when it comes to referral for treatment times. We also want to

:21:32. > :21:36.make sure that we don't see hospital overcrowding but it is

:21:36. > :21:39.important that we have a programme that issue was the security and

:21:39. > :21:44.long-term future of all our hospitals and that is something we

:21:44. > :21:47.have been working on and the Health Minister will bring forward these

:21:47. > :21:54.proposals so that the Assembly is fully aware that what we have in

:21:54. > :21:57.our manifesto is what we are doing. Kirsty Williams. Does it remain

:21:57. > :22:01.your government's policy to rule out the use of all private

:22:01. > :22:06.facilities to treat NHS patients, regardless of value for money or

:22:06. > :22:11.the standard of service they provide? We have no plans to

:22:11. > :22:15.privatise the health service. you explain to the chamber and the

:22:15. > :22:22.people of Wales why you are planning NHS patients from

:22:22. > :22:26.receiving free NHS IVF treatment at the popular, successful and good

:22:26. > :22:30.value for money clinic at Singleton Hospital in Swansea? It is

:22:30. > :22:34.important that people have an opportunity to have IVF treatment

:22:34. > :22:38.with that is possible but in England we know it has been stopped

:22:38. > :22:45.across the board. We want to make sure in Wales that we are in a

:22:45. > :22:52.position where we are able to offer IVF treatment with that is possible.

:22:52. > :22:57.Why are you planning NHS patients from receiving free IVF treatment

:22:57. > :23:05.at the very popular, the very successful, and a value-for-money

:23:05. > :23:12.service at the clinic at Singleton Hospital? And if you do not believe

:23:12. > :23:16.it is Barry for money, -- value for money, it is the Government's

:23:16. > :23:22.intention to open a new unit, could I ask you to publish the business

:23:22. > :23:25.case behind that new unit? clinic in Swansea is a private

:23:26. > :23:29.clinic run by a private organisation. It is important that

:23:29. > :23:33.we realised that we're it is possible to do so that IVF

:23:34. > :23:42.treatment is provided on the NHS, but there are difficulties with IVF

:23:42. > :23:44.treatment, particularly certain difficult indeed to provide

:23:44. > :23:48.treatment for infertile women who need to have egg donation. The

:23:48. > :23:53.number of egg donors has dropped dramatically because of a changing

:23:53. > :23:56.the law that was quite recent. It is never as easy as providing IVF

:23:56. > :24:00.services. Denise to be an assessment by doctors of the

:24:00. > :24:06.ability of people to benefit from those services and sometimes that

:24:06. > :24:10.is not clear. It can be very difficult for individuals to accept.

:24:10. > :24:15.Maybe I could assist the First Minister who seems to be completely

:24:15. > :24:20.in the dark about the decisions the Government has made. The unit at

:24:20. > :24:26.Swansea is a private clinic, with which the NHS in Wales has a

:24:26. > :24:31.contract to deliver free NHS treatment. Your government has

:24:31. > :24:34.ceased that contract, therefore, NHS patients who previously

:24:34. > :24:39.received a free service from that clinic will not be able to do so.

:24:39. > :24:44.Let me help you again, your previous government also

:24:44. > :24:49.commissioned a new clinic for Neath Port Talbot. I am amazed you don't

:24:49. > :24:53.know anything about the history of this particular case. Will you

:24:53. > :24:59.published the business case behind the decision to end that contract

:24:59. > :25:04.with Swansea and to build the new unit and to guarantee to patients

:25:04. > :25:09.that the 75 % success rate for couples under the age of 35 will be

:25:09. > :25:13.maintained in the new facility? For patients and couples who cannot

:25:13. > :25:17.afford to go private, they should not be able to have a second-rate

:25:17. > :25:22.service. Why are you planning patients from going to Swansea? How

:25:22. > :25:26.much is the new clinic costing? And what is the guarantee that those

:25:26. > :25:33.people who cannot afford to go private will enjoy comparable

:25:33. > :25:41.success rates to those in the private sector? You know nothing

:25:41. > :25:45.about it. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives. 77,000 people in

:25:45. > :25:49.Wales have been claiming out-of- work benefits for more than 10

:25:50. > :25:56.years. Ed Miliband claims that these people are shirkers. Does the

:25:56. > :25:59.First Minister agree? I certainly have many things I disagree within

:25:59. > :26:03.terms of politicians in London, particularly the Conservative MP

:26:03. > :26:07.who said the minimum wage should be lower for disabled people. That is

:26:08. > :26:11.something I have not had condemned from that side of the House.

:26:11. > :26:15.still don't know whether he agrees or disagrees with his leader in

:26:16. > :26:19.London. We heard last week that the private sector has created more

:26:19. > :26:24.than half a million extra jobs in the UK in the last 12 months.

:26:24. > :26:29.Clearly, the UK government's policy is working. The Welsh government

:26:29. > :26:35.needs to play its part, given the UK government is holding to its

:26:35. > :26:41.side of the bargain. Like health, there was nothing on job creation

:26:41. > :26:46.in the legislative statement last week. Why was that? We have a plan

:26:46. > :26:52.to make sure that 4,000 young people have training places. It is

:26:52. > :26:56.the first pledge we put forward. It replaces the future jobs fund the

:26:56. > :27:00.party opposite got rid of, destroying the hopes of many young

:27:00. > :27:03.people. We will bring forward plans that will improve the life chances

:27:03. > :27:08.of our young people, give them a chance of an apprenticeship, give

:27:08. > :27:11.them a chance of training, which was removed by the party opposite.

:27:11. > :27:18.Before we go to Prime Minister's Questions, what did my guests make

:27:18. > :27:23.of First Minister's Questions? How do you find the new set of with the

:27:23. > :27:27.leaders are all grouped together and they take their turns?

:27:27. > :27:33.someone who was dead against it for 12 years, I think it works really

:27:34. > :27:38.well, because it gives them an opportunity to have a run. The only

:27:38. > :27:42.danger I suspect is because the First Minister is an sited on these

:27:42. > :27:50.questions and he may not get such quality answers as you would if the

:27:50. > :27:57.questions were tabled. That is from a boring, retired Presiding Officer.

:27:57. > :28:03.How have you found it? As a new boy, I find it quite exciting. I think

:28:03. > :28:07.it is very good that these questions come as a surprise to the

:28:07. > :28:13.First Minister. He has got to think on his feet and I think that is

:28:13. > :28:20.what role should be. From my point of view, as someone who watches it

:28:20. > :28:25.every week, and I don't know how many people do, it does make for a

:28:25. > :28:29.livelier exchange. As does the fact there are three opposition leaders

:28:29. > :28:33.questioning the First Minister, whereas before there were only too.

:28:33. > :28:40.It adds to the variety of it. Yesterday was a very good example

:28:40. > :28:46.of that. How are you finding watching from the backbenches?

:28:46. > :28:53.not on the backbenches, and end in seat 41, the ideal location. I can

:28:53. > :28:57.see my Conservative colleagues opposite very clearly. And do you

:28:57. > :29:00.think, taking the party politics out of it if that is possible, the

:29:00. > :29:06.fact that the First Minister now has to answer three lots of

:29:06. > :29:11.questions from opposition leaders, maybe keeps him on his toes more?

:29:11. > :29:16.Open questions are good, and the fact they are grouped together

:29:16. > :29:23.means there is a run their, which used to happen in previous Assembly.

:29:23. > :29:27.The two opposition leaders used to club together a bit and gang up on

:29:27. > :29:32.some repeat questions and they think this is a lot better. We're

:29:32. > :29:39.going to go over to Prime Minister's Questions shortly.

:29:39. > :29:42.can't get any better. Anything they can learn from the Assembly? Yes,

:29:42. > :29:46.they can get themselves dedicated seats which would make it look like

:29:46. > :29:52.a proper Assembly with people scrutinising government, but I am

:29:52. > :29:55.not supposed to say that. What we get from Prime Minister's questions

:29:55. > :29:59.often, we hear the heckling and that kind of thing, we don't hear

:29:59. > :30:04.it so much on the television from the Assembly but that does not mean

:30:04. > :30:08.it does not go on. It does go on and that is something I have been

:30:08. > :30:12.quite surprised about. The microphones do not seem to pick it

:30:12. > :30:20.up and transmit it but I can assure you it does go on. Can it be off-

:30:20. > :30:25.putting? Not at all, I enjoy it. a Presiding Officer, you would have

:30:25. > :30:31.come down hard on anyone heckling. I over-reacted to most of the

:30:31. > :30:33.heckling because, as you say, it is not come through the microphones.

:30:33. > :30:43.Let's cross now to Westminster and our correspondent, Tomos

:30:43. > :30:54.

:30:54. > :31:00.I am here in the designated seats. We are just before David Cameron

:31:00. > :31:09.get a chance to answer MPs' questions.

:31:09. > :31:19.It is a decision of the Scottish Government to proceed. Order!

:31:19. > :31:22.

:31:22. > :31:29.Questions to the Prime Minister. Question number one. I was unaware

:31:29. > :31:39.it was anniversary for the Speaker, happy anniversary. I am sure the

:31:39. > :31:42.

:31:42. > :31:46.House will wish to join me in playing tribute to three talented,

:31:46. > :31:51.brave and dedicated soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice

:31:51. > :31:55.overseas for the safety of British people at home. We send out our

:31:55. > :31:59.deepest condolences to their families, friends and colleagues.

:31:59. > :32:03.This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others

:32:03. > :32:08.and in addition to my duties I will have further such metres later

:32:08. > :32:14.today. I thank the Prime Minister for the response and can I

:32:14. > :32:24.associate my constituents with the tribute he has just paid. 80 we go,

:32:24. > :32:24.

:32:24. > :32:29.the Chancellor delivered his first Budget. -- a year ago. Given on the

:32:29. > :32:35.government's assessment, the efforts will have a insignificant

:32:36. > :32:43.impact on child poverty, can I recommend the Prime Minister

:32:43. > :32:50.watches the BBC documentary, about his poor KIDS, to know how the

:32:50. > :32:54.other half lives. I will look at that programme. Even in a difficult

:32:54. > :32:58.time this government put more money into Child Tax Credits for the

:32:58. > :33:03.poorest families. We have frozen council tax and we have taken steps

:33:03. > :33:05.to help working families. The budget and subsequent Budget,

:33:05. > :33:12.neither of them raised Child poverty because of the steps that

:33:12. > :33:17.we take. We inherited a complete party -- mess from the party

:33:17. > :33:21.opposite but we are dealing with it in a way that protects families.

:33:21. > :33:26.Can the Prime Minister confirm this country will not contribute towards

:33:26. > :33:34.the great delight other than what we contribute to the IMF? -- the

:33:34. > :33:38.great deal out. We sit on the IMF board and have responsibilities. I

:33:38. > :33:42.am clear that we are not involved in the first Greek bail-out, we are

:33:42. > :33:48.not members of the eurozone and we will not become members of the

:33:48. > :33:52.eurozone as long as I am here. I do not believe the European financial

:33:52. > :33:58.mechanism should be used for Greece and we have made clear that is not

:33:58. > :34:08.appropriate and it should not happen. Can I join the Prime

:34:08. > :34:11.

:34:11. > :34:15.Minister in paying tribute to the fallen soldiers this week. They all

:34:15. > :34:20.serve their country with dedication and bravery and our hearts go out

:34:20. > :34:25.to their family and friends. Mr Speaker, Armed Forces Day is coming

:34:25. > :34:29.up this Saturday. That is an opportunity to remind us all of the

:34:29. > :34:34.service provided by the armed forces in Afghanistan, Libya and

:34:34. > :34:38.around the world. It is a moment to recognise the service they provide

:34:38. > :34:43.and the honour and courage for the country. We support the mission in

:34:43. > :34:48.Libya but in the last week both the First Sea Lord and the Commander in

:34:48. > :34:52.Chief Air Command have raised concerns over the prospect of an

:34:52. > :34:56.extended campaign. Can the Prime Minister assured the House that

:34:56. > :35:01.sufficient resources are in place to retain Britain's part in the

:35:01. > :35:05.mission of the current rate of engagement? Can I joined the Right

:35:05. > :35:08.Honourable Gentleman in paying tribute to our armed forces and

:35:08. > :35:11.particularly I am looking forward to Armed Forces Day on Saturday,

:35:11. > :35:14.where we will celebrate the contribution they make to our

:35:14. > :35:19.national life and the enormous amount they do to keep us safe. In

:35:19. > :35:23.terms of the mission in Libya, similar to Afghanistan, it is

:35:23. > :35:27.funded out of the reserve so it does not put additional pressures

:35:27. > :35:32.on the defence budget. I have sought assurances and receive them

:35:32. > :35:36.from the Chief of Staff, General Sir David Richards, that we are

:35:36. > :35:41.capable of keeping up this operation for as long as it takes.

:35:41. > :35:46.I would argue that the pressure is building on Colonel Gaddafi. Time

:35:46. > :35:50.is on our side, not his. When you look at what is happening in Libya,

:35:50. > :35:55.when you see a strengthening of the revolt, you see more people

:35:55. > :35:59.deserting Gaddafi's regime, growing unpopularity of his regime and are

:35:59. > :36:05.her opposition holding time -- holding strong, you see that time

:36:05. > :36:09.is on our side and it will come to a satisfactory conclusion. I agree

:36:09. > :36:14.that we should keep up pressure on the Libyan regime. We provide full

:36:14. > :36:20.support for the mission. Concerns have been expressed by members of

:36:20. > :36:23.our armed forces. Do they not point to something important, they need

:36:23. > :36:28.to look again at the Strategic Defence and Security Review,

:36:28. > :36:31.precisely to make sure we have the right capability and focus? The

:36:31. > :36:41.Foreign Secretary described the Arab spring as a more important

:36:41. > :36:43.

:36:44. > :36:48.event than 9/11. The report last year does not mention Egypt, Libya

:36:48. > :36:52.or Tunisia. Should we not look at the review again to make sure that

:36:53. > :36:56.we can sustain the conflict in Libya? I am grateful for the

:36:56. > :37:03.question because it is important. One of the reasons for having a

:37:03. > :37:07.national security council is to ask if we have the right strategy. We

:37:07. > :37:17.have had a review of the national security and Defence Review over

:37:17. > :37:21.the last year. That strategic Defence Review put in place

:37:21. > :37:27.mechanisms in case we are fighting to conflict at the same time. Also,

:37:27. > :37:31.it put in place and the necessity of flexible aren't forces. So,

:37:31. > :37:38.exactly what we are dealing with in Libya. It does seem to me strange,

:37:38. > :37:44.having not having had one for 10 years, one thing to reviews in one

:37:44. > :37:51.year. We have got the right flexibility in our armed forces.

:37:51. > :37:54.They provided magnificent services in Libya. So much of the new

:37:54. > :37:59.equipment we are looking to half in terms of drones and things like

:37:59. > :38:07.that would be more helpful to have now have. Far from being the wrong

:38:07. > :38:10.strategic posture, it is right to put it in place. It will come as

:38:10. > :38:15.news to the wider defence and security community that there has

:38:15. > :38:19.been a review of the original Strategic Defence and Security

:38:19. > :38:26.Review. If there has indeed been a reduces the Arab spring, why

:38:26. > :38:29.doesn't the Prime Minister publish the results? Let's consult with

:38:29. > :38:35.experts who know about these issues. There is clear concern across the

:38:35. > :38:45.military about these issues. Let me ask the Prime Minister, in all

:38:45. > :38:47.

:38:47. > :38:51.sincerity... SHOUTING. When our military chiefs raised concerns

:38:51. > :38:56.about the conduct of our military operations it is not the right

:38:56. > :39:02.thing to say, you do the fighting and I will do the talking. I

:39:02. > :39:05.thought it was very crass and high- handed. I have a huge respect for

:39:05. > :39:10.the people who run our armed services. They are professional

:39:11. > :39:15.people. They are involved in the National Security Council and

:39:15. > :39:24.drawing of the strategic Defence Review. The only point that I have

:39:24. > :39:31.tried two -- tried to make is that when we are in conflict, you must

:39:31. > :39:35.think carefully about what you are about to say. Can I ask the Prime

:39:35. > :39:45.Minister if he is aware of the decision abruptly made to close the

:39:45. > :39:46.

:39:46. > :39:52.Passport Office, which has obliged 86-year-old boy -- a six year-old

:39:52. > :39:55.boy to make a 600 mile round trip for an interview? And will look

:39:55. > :40:00.closely at this. In the modern age we have all sorts of ways of

:40:00. > :40:03.carrying out interviews that do not involve people having to travel to

:40:03. > :40:09.a passport office so what matters is having an efficient service so

:40:09. > :40:14.people can get the documentation they need to go on holiday. Given

:40:14. > :40:24.the number of a U-turn as the Prime Minister has made, including on

:40:24. > :40:27.

:40:27. > :40:36.sentencing, NHS reform, Forestry sell-off and skills, it is a wonder,

:40:36. > :40:46.but where Pinau have the France... SHOUTING. -- where he now have the

:40:46. > :40:52.

:40:52. > :40:56.front. I did not catch all of that. That is the trouble, it is...

:40:56. > :41:06.in the reminder to the backbenchers to keep quiet so the Prime Minister

:41:06. > :41:08.

:41:08. > :41:12.can hear. I think his second bed of the question was about the

:41:12. > :41:16.important point of women and pensions. I think it is right to

:41:16. > :41:23.have equal men's and women's pension age at 65 and that is going

:41:23. > :41:27.ahead. It is also important to raise the pension age to 66. People

:41:27. > :41:32.are living longer. That is a good thing but we have to make sure we

:41:32. > :41:37.can pay for easing future pensions. The alternative seems to be to

:41:37. > :41:40.stick your head in the sand and end up with a situation where you

:41:41. > :41:46.either cut pensions or build up debts for our children. The

:41:46. > :41:54.government is taking decisions but I think they are the right ones.

:41:54. > :42:03.Does the Prime Minister agreed there is still too much trouble in

:42:03. > :42:10.sport and the events will tackle prejudice in sport today? I am

:42:10. > :42:14.delighted to be hosting a party for the LGBT community in Downing

:42:14. > :42:19.Street today. There are very few out players in all sport. I applaud

:42:19. > :42:23.those who are coming to my party tonight. I hope it will recognise

:42:23. > :42:26.schoolchildren -- help schoolchildren to recognise that

:42:26. > :42:34.homophobic bullying is an acceptable. If the Prime Minister

:42:34. > :42:41.is serious about tackling the issue of farmers, why is he -- runaway

:42:41. > :42:46.fathers, why is he making it harder for single mothers? We are going to

:42:46. > :42:50.go on funding a Child Support Agency mechanism. I do not think it

:42:50. > :42:53.is wrong to ask people to contribute to that. Tax payers are

:42:53. > :42:59.currently putting in a huge amount of money and they will go on

:42:59. > :43:03.putting it in. Asking people to pay towards costs I do not think

:43:03. > :43:09.reduces the impact at all. People who walk away from responsibilities

:43:09. > :43:17.and do not fund children, that should not be allowed to happen.

:43:17. > :43:24.Next year is the centenary of the death of Robert Falcon Scott on the

:43:24. > :43:27.Antarctic. Does my Right Honourable Friend recognise that this brave,

:43:27. > :43:34.historic some of Plymouth left a significant scientific legacy which

:43:34. > :43:42.is still helping to form the world's environment. Agenda?

:43:42. > :43:46.thank my honourable friend for raising this issue. I am pleased

:43:46. > :43:49.that so much is going on to celebrate this. It is not just the

:43:49. > :43:55.scientific discoveries that are important. It is the inspirational

:43:55. > :44:01.figure, the adventurer and explorer, the sense of duty and adventure

:44:01. > :44:06.that he had, that inspires young people today. The Prime Minister

:44:06. > :44:11.has been forced to abandon his original plans on sentencing. Will

:44:11. > :44:18.he now changed his mind on the proposal to prevent police holding

:44:19. > :44:25.the DNA of those arrested but not charged with rape? We will look

:44:25. > :44:29.carefully at the issues of DNA. I have to say to the Right Honourable

:44:29. > :44:34.Gentleman, we inherited an unacceptable situation with eight

:44:34. > :44:38.DNA database that had grown out of control and without proper rights

:44:38. > :44:42.for people. We put in place a better system. There is always room

:44:42. > :44:48.for improvement. We made a big step forward from the mess we were left

:44:48. > :44:53.by the last government. It is a bit late to be looking at the proposals

:44:53. > :44:58.in the House of Commons at the report stage. Many explain his

:44:58. > :45:08.policy to the Prime Minister. -- let me. Around 5,000 people

:45:08. > :45:12.

:45:12. > :45:17.arrested on suspicion of rape each They have gone on to commit further

:45:17. > :45:19.offences and been convicted as a result of the DNA being held on the

:45:19. > :45:25.national database but his proposal is that those arrested are not

:45:25. > :45:33.charged, the DNA would be disposed of straight away. Why is it right

:45:33. > :45:40.to discard the DNA of those arrested but not charged with rape?

:45:40. > :45:49.I know there is some concern... Order! The answer of the Prime

:45:49. > :45:55.Minister will be heard. understand, Mr Speaker, there is

:45:55. > :46:03.some worry that in this government we talk to each other. This is

:46:03. > :46:06.clearly not the case. The Shadow Chancellor raises this issue and it

:46:06. > :46:14.is perfectly clear that the Shadow Chancellor and the leader of the

:46:14. > :46:18.Labour Party don't speak to each other at all. I have at the proof.

:46:18. > :46:27.This week he made a huge announcement on a massive and VAT

:46:28. > :46:37.cut and yet it was only... Let's focus on an answer to the question

:46:37. > :46:45.and then we will move on. Ed Miliband. Mr Speaker, let me give

:46:45. > :46:51.this lesson to the Prime Minister. It will be better to talk to his

:46:51. > :46:57.colleagues before they put forward the policy, not afterwards. Instead

:46:57. > :47:02.of listening to the Home Secretary, why doesn't he listen to Andrew

:47:02. > :47:05.Conway from pre-crisis. "with the reporting of raids on the increase

:47:05. > :47:11.and conviction rates still shockingly low, the evidence this

:47:11. > :47:19.database provides is vital. The more of this data we hold, the more

:47:19. > :47:23.chance we had of catching rapists. This really is a no-brainer.".

:47:23. > :47:30.Isn't this another policy on crime that is careless, not thought-

:47:30. > :47:37.through and out of touch? Why do we think again? If he actually

:47:37. > :47:44.understood the policy, he will know that the police are allowed to

:47:44. > :47:48.apply to keep DNA on the computer. What we tend to find with his

:47:48. > :47:52.questions is that he comes up with some idea, gets it completely wrong

:47:52. > :47:56.in the House of Commons, and we'll find afterwards he has given us a

:47:57. > :48:02.partial picture. That is what his questions are all about. Not

:48:02. > :48:07.surprising he does not want to talk. The answer of the Prime Minister

:48:07. > :48:11.must be heard. I am not surprised he does not want to talk about the

:48:11. > :48:18.issues his party has been putting forward this week because I don't

:48:18. > :48:27.suppose he knew about them. Order! The House needs to simmer down and

:48:27. > :48:31.take whatever tablets are necessary. As a parent, I am appalled that the

:48:31. > :48:35.party opposite support burdening our children with ever more

:48:35. > :48:39.unsolicited debts that the party opposite are putting forward with

:48:39. > :48:49.their reckless raft of tax cuts and spending commitments on which the

:48:49. > :48:52.

:48:52. > :48:59.VAT cut is the latest. The proposed to put 5% cut. The Speaker is cross

:48:59. > :49:04.because Labour policy is not the Prime Minister's responsibility.

:49:04. > :49:10.There are 400 avoidable deaths from epilepsy and related conditions. My

:49:10. > :49:13.bill asks for two things. An immediate referral to a tertiary

:49:13. > :49:17.specialist and in education support for children with an assessment so

:49:18. > :49:22.that they can fulfil their potential. Could the Prime Minister

:49:22. > :49:26.me with me, the Joint Epilepsy Council, to see how we can progress

:49:26. > :49:32.these provisions which will not only save costs but, more

:49:32. > :49:39.importantly, save lives? I would be delighted to meet with her and with

:49:39. > :49:43.Helen Cross, y'know well, who works at Great Ormond Street's, who is a

:49:43. > :49:47.brilliant clinician. I am keen to improve the support we give to

:49:47. > :49:50.people with epilepsy. One of the steps we are taking is putting in

:49:50. > :49:54.place more personal budgets and more single assessments which I

:49:54. > :50:00.think will help of epilepsy. My understanding is that while there

:50:00. > :50:04.are many good things in her Bill, there is concern it could have too

:50:04. > :50:12.much of a medical approach to special educational needs. I know

:50:12. > :50:18.many professionals have concerns about it. Could my right honourable

:50:18. > :50:22.friend tell the House whether and, if so, what the results have been

:50:22. > :50:29.of the Government's assessment of what a proposed cut in VAT were two

:50:29. > :50:33.to the British economy at this stage of the cycle? I do think my

:50:33. > :50:36.right honourable friend raises an important point, which is to began

:50:36. > :50:42.and funded cut to VAT right now when the concerns are about debt

:50:42. > :50:50.and deficit would be the height of insanity. What is now clear is that

:50:50. > :50:55.Labour's plan B stands for bankruptcy. The Prime Minister for

:50:55. > :51:01.equally tells us that we are all in this together. Can he explain why

:51:01. > :51:05.banks are being rewarded with a 2 million pound tax put on their

:51:05. > :51:13.obscene bonus pools and parents of disabled children are being

:51:13. > :51:18.penalised with a benefit cut of �1,400 a year. How is that fair?

:51:18. > :51:22.What this government has done is put in place a �2.5 billion bank

:51:22. > :51:25.Levy, raising more than Labour's bonus tax, every single year. If

:51:26. > :51:30.members opposite want to see irresponsible people who are

:51:30. > :51:35.earning a lot of money pay proper taxes, perhaps they could explain

:51:35. > :51:39.this. Why did they vote against the measures on disgraced earnings in

:51:39. > :51:49.the Finance Bill that would raise �800 million from people who are

:51:49. > :51:53.

:51:53. > :51:58.giving loans to themselves to dodge taxes? -- disguised earnings.

:51:58. > :52:03.we should not be making your natal contribution to the Greek bela,

:52:03. > :52:13.does the Prime Minister not agree that we have something that would

:52:13. > :52:14.

:52:14. > :52:20.regenerate the Greek economy and put right a 200 year wrong...

:52:20. > :52:25.don't agree with the honourable gentleman. Order! I want to hear

:52:25. > :52:32.the Prime Minister's views on marbles. The short answer is that

:52:32. > :52:38.we are not going to lose them up. Is the Prime Minister aware that

:52:38. > :52:42.670,000 people, two-thirds of whom, according to his government's

:52:42. > :52:46.equality impact assessment, have a disability, we lose up to �13 a

:52:46. > :52:50.week because of his changes in housing benefit under occupancy

:52:50. > :52:56.rights. Isn't this a complete betrayal of his Chancellor's

:52:56. > :52:59.promised not a balance the budget on the backs of the poor? I have

:52:59. > :53:03.looked carefully at this issue and I know there are concerns. The

:53:04. > :53:06.point I make is this, I think it is right that we Reform Housing

:53:06. > :53:11.Benefit, the costs have got completely out of control under the

:53:11. > :53:14.last government, rising to 22 billion. I think it is right that

:53:14. > :53:17.housing benefit reflects the size of a family rather than the size of

:53:17. > :53:20.a house, but we have made an exception for people who have

:53:20. > :53:26.carers so that that is taken allowance for in the housing

:53:26. > :53:29.benefit. But it is not good saying you are in favour of welfare reform

:53:29. > :53:35.and cutting the cost of welfare but never been able to find a single

:53:35. > :53:41.part of the bill you agree with. Will the Prime Minister join me in

:53:41. > :53:45.welcoming the new report by the Paediatric mobility reform group,

:53:45. > :53:52.MAI will chair is my shoes, showing how we can, through partnership,

:53:52. > :53:56.deliver wheelchairs which transform young people's lives. Will he make

:53:56. > :54:01.with me to discuss how the Government might take this forward?

:54:01. > :54:06.I know the charity well, they to a brilliant job. I will arrange a

:54:06. > :54:08.meeting for him. The point I would make on the edges is, it is exactly

:54:08. > :54:12.where the health reforms with greater choice and greater

:54:12. > :54:16.opportunity to choose for GPs and patients, should come in. So that

:54:16. > :54:23.people get the wheelchair of their choice at the time of need, rather

:54:23. > :54:27.than at the moment, we have got to take what you are given. In four of

:54:27. > :54:32.the last five years, there have been no mistakes made in the

:54:32. > :54:36.setting of school examination papers. Since 16th May this year,

:54:36. > :54:41.they have been 10 such mistakes. What does the Prime Minister intend

:54:41. > :54:46.to do for those among the 250,000 young people affected who lose

:54:46. > :54:52.either at the University of choice or the university at all because of

:54:52. > :54:54.this staggering incompetence? is not an acceptable situation. I

:54:54. > :54:58.have discussed it with the Education Secretary of state this

:54:58. > :55:01.morning who has discussed it with the watchdog caught taking the

:55:01. > :55:06.toughest possible action to regard this failure and make sure it does

:55:06. > :55:11.not happen again. The Prime Minister will be aware that the

:55:11. > :55:14.former labour Secretary of State, Lord Hutton, has despite current

:55:14. > :55:17.proposals on a pension reform as the best chance we have of

:55:17. > :55:20.delivering a sustainable system which is fair to scheme payers and

:55:20. > :55:27.the taxpayer, but does my right honourable friend agree with me

:55:27. > :55:32.that when it comes to these major long-term issues, will he seek the

:55:32. > :55:36.support of both sides of the House for his proposals? I thank my

:55:37. > :55:40.honourable friend for the question and the way he puts it because the

:55:40. > :55:46.point is this, I think the Hutton report is a good report and this is

:55:46. > :55:50.not about attacking or downgrading public sector pensions, it is about

:55:50. > :55:54.making good public sector pensions affordable into the long term. It

:55:54. > :55:57.is respecting all of the accrued rights that people have. I think we

:55:57. > :56:03.need to win the argument on the basis of fairness that it is right

:56:03. > :56:07.for the tap their -- taxpayer to put money into public sector

:56:07. > :56:11.pensions but we need to know it is affordable for the long term. Hits

:56:11. > :56:14.I hope that the party opposite will take a responsible view and

:56:14. > :56:20.recognise that we need to make this change for the long-term good of

:56:20. > :56:24.our country. 18 months ago, one of my constituents required knee

:56:24. > :56:28.surgery and he was pleased to hear he only had to wait six weeks. He

:56:28. > :56:33.now meets another operation and has been told he has to wait 10 months.

:56:33. > :56:36.He is in agony and unable to walk. He is understandably angry and

:56:36. > :56:41.wants to know is this what the Prime Minister meant when he said

:56:42. > :56:45.the NHS was safe in his hands? will take up the individual case

:56:45. > :56:49.because, the fact is, we have not changed the waiting list targets

:56:49. > :56:54.which have been in place for a long time, in particular the 18 the

:56:54. > :56:58.targets which is part of the NHS constitution. Average waiting times

:56:58. > :57:03.have actually come down in recent months. The lesson is this, if it

:57:03. > :57:06.was not for the Government putting in �11.5 billion extra, many the

:57:06. > :57:14.party opposite does not support, you would see all waiting times

:57:14. > :57:18.going up. On 18th July last year, the economics secretary to the

:57:18. > :57:22.Treasury stated with regards to the decision to sign Britain up to the

:57:22. > :57:26.euro-zone bail out mechanism, "while these decisions were taken

:57:27. > :57:31.by the previous government, this government judges them to be an

:57:31. > :57:35.appropriate response to the crisis". Does this remain at the

:57:36. > :57:45.Government's position? I know my honourable friend is pursuing this

:57:45. > :57:48.issue with his normal dog-eared tenacity. The fact is, the last

:57:48. > :57:52.Government's signed us up to obey European financial mechanism which

:57:52. > :57:55.we are still having to pay out under. What this government has

:57:55. > :58:03.done is to get us out of it by tough negotiation in Brussels so we

:58:03. > :58:06.won't have to contribute after 2013. Can I associate myself with the

:58:06. > :58:11.Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition's condolence for

:58:11. > :58:13.those soldiers who have fallen in Afghanistan. Those who serves are

:58:13. > :58:21.the Lions of our country and we must do everything they can to

:58:21. > :58:25.repay the debt of gratitude we owe them. The October 2010 Esti Sr has

:58:25. > :58:28.been overtaken by events and the world is now a fundamentally

:58:28. > :58:31.different place. Will the Prime Minister to the right thing for the

:58:31. > :58:41.armed forces and the country and order a new chapter to this now

:58:41. > :58:43.

:58:43. > :58:48.outdated reveal? -- review. I think the idea of reopening the defence

:58:48. > :58:52.review at a time when our armed forces are engaged and doing such a

:58:52. > :58:56.fantastic job is actually the wrong one. What the defence review was

:58:56. > :58:59.all about was making sure that we have flexible armed forces so that

:58:59. > :59:02.they can be committed to different parts of the world and they have

:59:02. > :59:07.got the backing they need. It was about getting rid of the main

:59:07. > :59:11.battle tanks in Germany and putting money -- money into the forces of

:59:11. > :59:16.the future. That is what the defence review is about. Libya

:59:16. > :59:20.shows it is working and I think we should stick with it. Will my right

:59:20. > :59:23.honourable friend welcome the campaign for high-speed rail for

:59:24. > :59:28.campaigning outside Parliament to bring thousands of much needed jobs

:59:28. > :59:33.to the Midlands and the North to help address the North-South divide

:59:33. > :59:37.and will he confirm that he will come to Yorkshire? I can happily

:59:37. > :59:41.confirm all of those things. I do believe, if we are serious about

:59:41. > :59:45.tried to rebalance our economy, to make sure we get growth across the

:59:45. > :59:53.country and not just in the south- east, the time for high-speed rail

:59:53. > :59:55.has come and that is why it has my strong report -- support.

:59:56. > :00:00.Secretary of State for Wales says she's prepared to be sacked because

:00:00. > :00:10.of the Government policy on high- speed rail. Will the Prime Minister

:00:10. > :00:11.

:00:11. > :00:16.take up a very kind of a? -- offer? In one year as Welsh Secretary, she

:00:16. > :00:25.has secured something that in 13 years, your has never achieved,

:00:25. > :00:30.which is the electrification of the An agoraphobic man from

:00:30. > :00:33.Middlesbrough it set up his own illegal loans company because he

:00:33. > :00:39.received so much in benefits. The judges said he received a

:00:39. > :00:42.staggering amount on benefits. Does it not show the welfare system is

:00:42. > :00:46.Brogan and will the Prime Minister and redouble efforts to reform it?

:00:46. > :00:50.The people who send us you want us to sort out the welfare system.

:00:50. > :00:54.They wanted to be there for people who genuinely need help but they

:00:54. > :01:01.also want to make sure that if you are offered a job you should not be

:01:01. > :01:07.able to leave -- led a life on welfare. What a pity that the party

:01:07. > :01:14.opposite did not have the guts to back it. Most people know that

:01:14. > :01:21.Rochdale is the home of corporation. Next year is the United Nations

:01:21. > :01:28.International Year of co-operatives. Will the Prime Minister consider

:01:28. > :01:38.visiting Rochdale for the purposes of showing support to new dualism

:01:38. > :01:41.

:01:41. > :01:46.in the 21st secretary. I am a strong supporter of corporate tents

:01:46. > :01:52.and Mutual's. They have a role in the economy and the public services.

:01:52. > :01:56.We will make some announcements about that in the months to come.

:01:56. > :02:05.Earlier this year the Prime Minister demonstrated the strength

:02:05. > :02:11.of character to talk about the issue of multiculturalism. I try to

:02:11. > :02:20.combine the best of my Indian values with British values. Would

:02:20. > :02:25.the Prime Minister agree we can learn a lot from Indian people?

:02:25. > :02:28.pay tribute to my Honourable Friend and the work he does on this issue.

:02:28. > :02:33.It is vital that we build a stronger national identity and

:02:33. > :02:37.people clearly feel that yes, of course you can have all sorts of

:02:37. > :02:42.different religious and cultural identities, but it is important we

:02:42. > :02:46.build a strong British identity and he is living proof of that.

:02:46. > :02:53.Tomorrow the European parliament will decide whether to increase the

:02:53. > :02:59.you's carbon reduction target to 30% by 2020. -- E u's. According to

:02:59. > :03:04.reports, it will be very close but it will not pass if just one

:03:04. > :03:12.Conservative eat -- MDP about her of twenty-five will vote. Will the

:03:12. > :03:17.Prime Minister confirm that all of his MEPs will honour this? We are

:03:17. > :03:23.committed to the 30% target and nothing will change that. I will

:03:23. > :03:28.work on my MEPs if she promises to work on her is, who in recent

:03:28. > :03:33.months have voted for a higher EU budget, new EU taxes and an opt-out

:03:33. > :03:39.on the working time directive. They even voted against scrapping first

:03:39. > :03:46.class air travel for MEPs. Perhaps she would like to fly over and gave

:03:46. > :03:52.them a talking to? With the National Audit Office estimating

:03:52. > :03:56.the cost of reoffending to the economy of �10 billion per year,

:03:56. > :04:06.does my Right Honourable Friend agree that we need to reduce or

:04:06. > :04:13.fending levels -- or sending levels? I agree with my Honourable

:04:13. > :04:18.Friend, who has considerable experience in this area. Each

:04:18. > :04:23.prison place costs �45,000 and half of prisoners reoffend within a year

:04:23. > :04:29.of getting out, half or on drugs and 10% are for a nurse who should

:04:29. > :04:37.not be in this country in any event. -- foreigners. We should reduce

:04:37. > :04:44.costs by reforming prisons rather than cutting sentences. Order!

:04:44. > :04:50.The speaker brings an end to be questioned time in which the Prime

:04:51. > :04:57.Minister sidestepped the question about Cheryl Gillan threatening to

:04:57. > :05:07.resign if there is a high he's been to -- high-speed rail link through

:05:07. > :05:08.

:05:08. > :05:14.her home in Buckinghamshire. We will pick up on what was being

:05:14. > :05:19.suggested about the idea of the electric line to Cardiff. David

:05:19. > :05:25.Cameron take credit for doing that. He has come under cred -- attacked

:05:25. > :05:34.for not electrifying as far as Swansea? He came to Swansea in

:05:34. > :05:38.April. He did not dismiss the fact that it would come at to Swansea

:05:38. > :05:42.provided we can put together a business case. It depends if Carwyn

:05:42. > :05:49.Jones could put together a good business case. By an enthusiastic

:05:49. > :05:54.and will speak my mind to Westminster. -- I am enthusiastic.

:05:54. > :06:03.It is about connecting Wales and brainee it to Swansea and about

:06:03. > :06:10.onward connections to Western Wales. It is an important feature of our

:06:10. > :06:15.transport system. I do not know when you made of the session. It

:06:15. > :06:20.was very noisy. The Speaker had a very busy afternoon. What did you

:06:20. > :06:26.make of the content? I did not make much of the content and I thought

:06:26. > :06:33.the performance was worse. I would give it three. This is how it is,

:06:34. > :06:37.unfortunately. That was raucous and noisy, no sense. It is not designed

:06:37. > :06:44.to do that. You have a parliamentary Chamber which was

:06:44. > :06:50.restored in the 1950s and the decision was taken then not to make

:06:50. > :06:54.it big enough for the members. The problem I have got on the occasion,

:06:54. > :07:00.which is only about three or four times a month, when I get to the

:07:00. > :07:04.other place, is that it is getting equally raucous there. Gone are the

:07:04. > :07:08.days that the Lords were sleeping on the benches? The problem is that

:07:08. > :07:13.there is not a proper Speaker. Everybody would shout across as to

:07:13. > :07:21.who should be called next. It is very unseemly, compared with the

:07:21. > :07:29.tidy way we do things there. have stood for or a seat in

:07:29. > :07:38.Parliament. Do you think you would not mind giving it a go now? I am

:07:38. > :07:43.very happy with my situation. It is quite silly, isn't it? We did not

:07:43. > :07:52.learn much. No, I thought it was very noisy. We are far more

:07:52. > :07:57.disciplined here. In terms of the noise and heckling, the Speaker has

:07:57. > :08:02.been here. Do you think that he took anything away from here? Stuff

:08:02. > :08:05.that he could implement? The most important thing about the National

:08:05. > :08:12.Assembly is that he's in the round, everyone is visible and can hear

:08:12. > :08:16.each other. -- that it is. We have dedicated seats and microphones. On

:08:16. > :08:24.the Presiding Officer's desk there is a button which swishes everyone

:08:24. > :08:29.off. -- switches. The question of maintaining order by having to

:08:29. > :08:37.shout, the problem is everybody shouts because that is the only way

:08:37. > :08:40.they can get heard. But you cannot redesign the Chamber? It should be

:08:40. > :08:47.a Parliament of England and then we can have a proper, a federal

:08:47. > :08:52.building somewhere in the West Midlands or even in York. Obviously

:08:52. > :08:58.there will be things in common but there is a house of Lords for that

:08:58. > :09:07.as well. The Chamber was not designed for this and this is the

:09:07. > :09:11.problem. It comes out when will carry on for the foreseeable

:09:11. > :09:16.future. Coming up, the politics of water, who should decide how and

:09:16. > :09:22.when water from Welsh reservoirs can be pumped two parts of the UK,

:09:22. > :09:29.and the stigma of free school meals. We have already heard about the

:09:29. > :09:36.decision to postpone a badger cull in it North Pembrokeshire. I am

:09:36. > :09:42.with Peter Black of the Liberal Democrats. We asked the -- John

:09:42. > :09:48.gritters to come on the programme but he was unable to. You are

:09:48. > :09:53.enabled -- glad it is not going ahead? It was the wrong decision at

:09:53. > :09:57.the time and it has divided my community. It would not have

:09:57. > :10:02.tackled the main problem, which is it would have exacerbated the

:10:02. > :10:05.spread of TB. We need other measures. The fact that the

:10:05. > :10:10.environment minister has taken the decision to pull back and look at

:10:10. > :10:13.this all over again is very welcome indeed. Hopefully we can find a

:10:13. > :10:19.solution which will be acceptable for the whole community. He has not

:10:19. > :10:26.really taken a decision, though, he has just kicked it into the long

:10:26. > :10:32.grass. It is not resolved. government was so far advanced

:10:32. > :10:35.towards the, that at some stage, it was going to have to be finding a

:10:35. > :10:39.way out. Setting up the independent review with the best mechanism by

:10:39. > :10:45.which a government which is subject to judicial review would take on

:10:45. > :10:49.board the issues which have been raised with him, and start looking

:10:49. > :10:58.at controlling TB a fresh, particularly around kettle --

:10:58. > :11:03.cattle, we can look at other diseases. Sometimes you get

:11:03. > :11:08.different answers. Who is to say this review will carry a definitive

:11:08. > :11:12.emphasis on power? Will people listen to this? I think the problem

:11:12. > :11:15.is people have not been listening to the scientists. If you look at

:11:15. > :11:19.the independent review the outcome was that a badger cull would

:11:19. > :11:24.actually spread the disease outback -- outside the area and cause more

:11:24. > :11:29.problems than it started. They all may have good results from a

:11:29. > :11:36.vaccination trial. They know that where vaccination has been used,

:11:36. > :11:46.74% of badgers are in disease free and you can build on the life cycle

:11:46. > :11:49.

:11:50. > :11:56.and eradicate TB from the Population in a five-year period.

:11:56. > :12:03.Vaccination will be looked at his grip and hopefully you can get --

:12:03. > :12:09.in this group. We heard this morning that the Finance Minister

:12:09. > :12:16.is not going to attend a meeting at the select committee and has said

:12:16. > :12:19.this in very brisker terms. What do you make of this? We are looking

:12:19. > :12:23.inward investment which is an important subject. Although the

:12:23. > :12:30.minister is accountable to the Assembly, the Assembly holds a lot

:12:30. > :12:37.of leavers. The UK Government is also very important in terms of

:12:37. > :12:40.economic development in Wales. If the Welsh Select Committee can't

:12:40. > :12:45.produce a report which will help the Welsh Assembly government we

:12:45. > :12:55.need to support that. -- can produce. We need to give them

:12:55. > :12:55.

:12:55. > :13:02.evidence. Should they compel her to attend? I think they should.

:13:02. > :13:06.That was amazing, a politician gave a five second and into second!

:13:06. > :13:09.There are concerns over drought in parts of England. Last week Boris

:13:09. > :13:16.Johnson suggested pumping water from Wales to drought-stricken

:13:16. > :13:21.areas. That has resurrected a debate on who should decide on such

:13:21. > :13:28.matters. Our political correspondent joins us from Bangor.

:13:28. > :13:33.What is the background to this intervention? Essentially, the

:13:33. > :13:37.context is the article by Boris Johnson in an edition of last

:13:37. > :13:41.week's Telegraph. There is a drought in the south-east of

:13:41. > :13:50.England. One of the ideas advocated by the mayor of London to alleviate

:13:50. > :13:57.the situation, at a crisis in some parts, wants to pump water from

:13:57. > :14:02.Wales. Essentially it is rather more than an issue about water. It

:14:02. > :14:08.is the latest in an episode about the whole nature of political

:14:08. > :14:14.control over Wales's natural resources. As you say rightly, it

:14:14. > :14:20.has opened up a Pandora's box of political memories from two

:14:20. > :14:27.generations ago, when Liverpool City Council flooded the village --

:14:27. > :14:32.a village to supply water to that part of the UK. There is an

:14:32. > :14:40.immediate resonance to the comments. There is also political memory as

:14:41. > :14:49.well. We are going to here from Lord wiki in a moment. Why is he so

:14:49. > :14:55.insensitive? He is saying that the situation that happens was in the

:14:55. > :15:03.face of opposition from all aspects of Welsh public life yet Liverpool

:15:03. > :15:09.City Council flooded the village. He hoped, he said, that the

:15:10. > :15:13.National Assembly would stop such a situation in the future. There is

:15:14. > :15:19.an obscure calls -- clause which we draw attention to about five years

:15:19. > :15:29.ago, which gives the Secretary of State the powers to intervene. That

:15:29. > :15:34.

:15:34. > :15:38.concerns the Lord and that is what When the valley was drowned, there

:15:38. > :15:42.was uproar, and the belief was that existence of the National Assembly

:15:42. > :15:46.should be enough to safeguard Wales from that ever happening again. The

:15:47. > :15:54.question arises now as to whether clauses in the 2006 government of

:15:54. > :15:58.Wales act mean that the London ministers have a veto over the

:15:58. > :16:07.National Assembly for Wales in this matter and therefore could insist

:16:07. > :16:12.on drowning valleys in Wales to meet the need for water. That

:16:12. > :16:16.happened two generations ago, why bring it up again now? I remember

:16:16. > :16:21.when I went down to the area a few years ago, I interviewed

:16:21. > :16:24.descendants of people who had been moved out of their homes, many of

:16:25. > :16:30.them were kids when it happened. They were not talking about

:16:30. > :16:34.historic events, those events start a whole generation. It's got a hold

:16:34. > :16:38.community, it's Cardiff political memory. They were not talking about

:16:38. > :16:41.events that happened two generations ago, they were talking

:16:42. > :16:49.about events that could have happened last week. Globally, as

:16:49. > :16:54.well, the whole way that we deal, the management of natural resources,

:16:54. > :17:03.is coming higher and higher up the political agenda. Earlier this week,

:17:03. > :17:11.we saw Carwyn Jones staking a claim for powers over wind farms in. In

:17:11. > :17:16.Scotland, the same argument about natural resources. If the issue is,

:17:16. > :17:21.how are they managed and who benefits from them? Globally, we

:17:21. > :17:26.see the issue of water specifically becoming a very contentious issue,

:17:26. > :17:32.given the fact that we are now living in an age of climate change.

:17:32. > :17:40.In Africa, in drought-stricken areas, tribes in areas of action --

:17:40. > :17:45.Africa go to war so it is a very contentious political issue. Now we

:17:45. > :17:55.will see what our guests think about that. Is it worth raking up

:17:55. > :17:56.

:17:56. > :18:01.the ghost of the past? It is not a ghost. We have had visitors

:18:01. > :18:06.visiting the Environment Agency facility. The water belongs to

:18:06. > :18:09.Wales. We had visitors from China recently looking at the amazing

:18:09. > :18:16.catchment control and management of water resource that the reservoir

:18:16. > :18:22.and the down flow along the river, with the extraction to Wrexham and

:18:22. > :18:28.Chester and then on to Liverpool provides. I don't know who advises

:18:28. > :18:38.Boris Johnson on his environmental policy, but you can't mix water.

:18:38. > :18:44.There are water quality issues with transport. -- transfer. I have got

:18:44. > :18:50.no object in, whether it is wind energy always energy or water, from

:18:50. > :18:55.Wales, been used elsewhere provided there is proper return. That is the

:18:55. > :19:01.question I was going to put to you. If other areas of the UK need water

:19:01. > :19:04.and it is in plentiful supply here, why not supply it? I could not

:19:04. > :19:14.agree more. We are the United Kingdom and if we have got it, why

:19:14. > :19:17.not? What did you make of the Plaid Cymru Assembly Member, he put the

:19:17. > :19:23.question to the First Minister and described Boris Johnson as saying

:19:23. > :19:27.he wanted to steal Welsh Water? is a passionate issue but I think

:19:27. > :19:37.that is going to the extreme. Boris is Boris and he will use all sorts

:19:37. > :19:38.

:19:38. > :19:47.of adjectives. I think it is more important to say that the days of

:19:48. > :19:55.drowning land areas for water resources, there are lots of

:19:55. > :19:58.reservoirs about, those days are over for all sorts of environmental

:19:58. > :20:06.reasons. But there are key issues about the conservation of water

:20:06. > :20:13.resource. There was talk of a veto. I am afraid, I interpret the

:20:13. > :20:16.Government of Wales Act 2006 rather differently. Throat -- the water

:20:16. > :20:20.resource of Wales is managed by the Environment Agency of Wales and

:20:20. > :20:25.therefore it is accountable to the National Assembly and Welsh

:20:25. > :20:30.ministers. Even more so if the proposals for the Environment

:20:30. > :20:38.Agency to be reorganised within Wales with the Countryside Council

:20:38. > :20:40.and the Forestry Commission, which is on the agenda now, with that.

:20:40. > :20:43.An Assembly Member is calling for a fingerprint recognition system to

:20:43. > :20:50.be introduced in a bid to end the stigma associated with claiming

:20:50. > :20:54.free school meals. Mark's in the Oriel with more.

:20:54. > :20:58.I am joined today by the Labour Assembly Members for Mid and West

:20:58. > :21:04.Wales, Joyce Watson. We went to school the other day, a very

:21:04. > :21:09.interesting visit to school in Burry Port to look at how school

:21:09. > :21:15.dinners are changing. At the moment, some of our children are being

:21:15. > :21:18.stigmatised because they came free school meals. Is that right? That

:21:18. > :21:22.is right, because they are identified by a system of payment,

:21:22. > :21:27.they have a ticket lorry token that they have to produce in order to

:21:27. > :21:31.get their meal. Side by side, immediately, you can see the

:21:31. > :21:38.differential between those who have money in their pocket to pay and

:21:38. > :21:42.those who clearly don't have. they are picked on because of that?

:21:42. > :21:49.They are segregated by virtue of who they are and that has

:21:49. > :21:55.absolutely nothing to do with their circumstances. Visually, they are

:21:55. > :21:59.immediately different. They belong to different social class. As a

:21:59. > :22:04.consequence, they are teased and they are victimised because they

:22:04. > :22:11.have got to produce a ticket to get their food. For so the answer to

:22:11. > :22:17.this, you are saying, is a system where you can't identify who

:22:17. > :22:20.receives free school meals and who does not? These systems are in

:22:20. > :22:26.operation, they are available, and you can do wait biometric system

:22:26. > :22:36.which takes a fingerprint lorry thumbprint and is the system we see

:22:36. > :22:36.

:22:36. > :22:39.in the report, -- Burry Port, but it is done discreetly so you would

:22:39. > :22:44.not know whether they have told their own cash into that system or

:22:44. > :22:50.whether they had the �2 a day free school meal entitlement. No child

:22:50. > :22:53.in that room we'll know. No member of staff in that room we'll know.

:22:53. > :23:00.And the children and staff are very clear that they have made the

:23:00. > :23:04.problems a thing of the past. But it is quite costly. It does cost

:23:04. > :23:13.money, depending on which system you have. There is an alternative

:23:14. > :23:17.card system. But I don't think, when we are talking about for

:23:17. > :23:21.generations later producing tickets that we can simply say it is bound

:23:21. > :23:25.to cost. I think it has got to be said it is down too well. Where

:23:25. > :23:31.there has been it will, they have moved forward with this.

:23:31. > :23:37.Carmarthenshire, my area, his will was going to be 50 % plus

:23:37. > :23:43.comprehensive schools using the systems. In Pemba shock -- in

:23:43. > :23:47.Pembrokeshire, there are only to school. I know there is a

:23:47. > :23:52.commitment to roll-out this kind of process by 20th September 12.

:23:52. > :23:57.You're looking for that commitment to be met a. We cannot use an

:23:57. > :24:03.archaic system which just causes segregation in the dining room.

:24:03. > :24:07.Thank you very much, Joyce Watson. Time for a final chat with my

:24:07. > :24:11.guests. The Education Minister, Leighton Andrews, has told BBC

:24:11. > :24:14.Wales that the University of Wales has let itself and the country down

:24:14. > :24:24.after it was advised to review its links with overseas colleges by the

:24:24. > :24:28.

:24:28. > :24:31.higher education watchdog, the Quality Assurance Agency. You are

:24:31. > :24:37.the President of Bangor University so you have got an academic hat on.

:24:37. > :24:40.These are very strong words from the Minister. Yes, they are. He has

:24:40. > :24:45.a strong way with words of attacking high education and I'm

:24:45. > :24:49.not sure it is always the best tactic. We have our own degree-

:24:49. > :24:54.awarding powers but we study, along with Swansea, Aberystwyth and

:24:54. > :24:57.Cardiff, part of the University of Wales when it was a proper federal

:24:57. > :25:04.university. It is still a would degrees in Wales but it also

:25:04. > :25:08.markets itself outside. -- it does still award degrees. I think the

:25:08. > :25:14.time has come for the brand of the University of Wales to be gradually

:25:14. > :25:22.phased out. All universities of Wales should be identified in terms

:25:22. > :25:27.of the regions their working. -- work in. Wales is a proud country

:25:27. > :25:32.and its reputation abroad is a valued. Do you think this does

:25:33. > :25:39.damage? It is about integrity at the end of the day. These degrees

:25:39. > :25:44.have got to be seen as good qualifications from Wales. I agree.

:25:44. > :25:49.There is another government minister in the news today. Peter

:25:49. > :25:54.Black answered a question earlier and Edwina Hart has quite bluntly

:25:54. > :25:59.refused an invitation to go and give evidence to the Welsh Affairs

:25:59. > :26:04.Select Committee. You know Edwina Hart quite well. You stood against

:26:04. > :26:08.her in elections. Quite a brisk letter she sent to the committee

:26:08. > :26:13.chaired. What you make of her decision not to go and give

:26:13. > :26:19.evidence on inward Investment in Wales, which is part of her brief?

:26:19. > :26:28.I think she should go. The style of the response is Edwina Hart. I did

:26:28. > :26:32.stand against her in 2007 in the assembly election. In fact, there

:26:32. > :26:38.has never been any dialogue between us and I think that is probably

:26:38. > :26:46.because I got eight 10.8 % swing against her. There would be any

:26:46. > :26:50.dialogue after you mentioned that. What you make of this decision?

:26:50. > :26:59.am a very close friend of Edwina Hart and she is a very determined

:26:59. > :27:03.lady. There is an important issue of accountability here. She is

:27:03. > :27:07.putting up a stand. I would not like to be the present Serjeant-at-

:27:07. > :27:13.Arms at the House of Commons going to fetch Edwina Hart to give

:27:13. > :27:19.evidence. What about the idea of Minister is going to give evidence?

:27:19. > :27:22.Then it should be both ways. Either let's have it done properly or

:27:22. > :27:28.let's have a principle that ministers are accountable to the

:27:28. > :27:33.Assembly where they serve. Is there not an idea, you are going to be on

:27:33. > :27:38.the business committee, or the Enterprise Committee rather, could

:27:38. > :27:46.Edwina Hart: to the committee and get something back to benefit her

:27:46. > :27:50.in her role? I think it would be positive. I am disappointed she is

:27:50. > :28:00.not going. They will not be a Welsh Affairs Select Committee much

:28:00. > :28:06.longer. -- they will not be. Sooner rather than later it will disappear,

:28:06. > :28:10.I would think. But if ministers are called to go and give evidence in

:28:10. > :28:16.other areas, for instance, there was a cross-border report, other

:28:16. > :28:21.committees might do something similar. There is no border between

:28:21. > :28:26.England and Wales. They are the matches. This is an open country. I

:28:26. > :28:29.don't like the attitude of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee.

:28:30. > :28:36.Cross-border? We should be looking for collaboration and co-operation.

:28:36. > :28:42.It is not for rate UK Select Committee to call a Welsh Minister

:28:42. > :28:50.to try to pick holes in the policy of the previous Minister. Very

:28:50. > :28:56.briefly, can you see Edwina Hart being compelled to go? Knowing her