:00:00. > :00:12.In less than two weeks' time you will choose the United Kingdom's
:00:13. > :00:16.next Prime Minister. So, who do you want to shape your future and that
:00:17. > :00:25.of Wales and the wider world? Tonight we look at Labour. In half
:00:26. > :00:28.an hour this audience here in bug will put their questions live to
:00:29. > :00:32.Carwyn Jones. First Andrew Neil talks to the man who wants the keys
:00:33. > :00:35.to Downing Street. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. Welcome to Ask the
:00:36. > :00:48.Leader. Mr Corbyn, today you drew a link
:00:49. > :00:51.between terror attacks at home Do you believe if Britain had not
:00:52. > :00:55.followed the foreign policy it has since Tony Blair was in office,
:00:56. > :00:58.the attack on Manchester The attack on Manchester was
:00:59. > :01:01.shocking, appalling indefensible, The parallel I was drawing this
:01:02. > :01:08.morning was that a number of people, ever since the interventions
:01:09. > :01:11.in Afghanistan and Iraq have drawn attention to the links
:01:12. > :01:21.with foreign policy, including Boris Johnson
:01:22. > :01:23.in 2005, two former heads of MI5, and of course the Foreign
:01:24. > :01:25.Affairs Select Committee, and the point I was making was,
:01:26. > :01:29.we have to make our streets secure. We have to make our
:01:30. > :01:30.population secure. We also, any sensible
:01:31. > :01:32.government, has got to look to what is happening in Libya,
:01:33. > :01:35.a huge ungoverned space and apparently a source
:01:36. > :01:42.of some awful extremism. But was Manchester a consequence
:01:43. > :01:45.of our foreign policy? Manchester was a consequence of one
:01:46. > :01:48.person going into a music event and killing a very large number
:01:49. > :01:51.of people, there can be no So nothing to do
:01:52. > :01:56.with foreign policy? I do not in any way
:01:57. > :02:02.change that view. That is just a vile,
:02:03. > :02:05.horrible event and those people have it is dead but there appears to be
:02:06. > :02:10.a whole connection of them. I made the point that
:02:11. > :02:14.if we are to have a secure future, we've got to look at ungoverned
:02:15. > :02:16.spaces around the world and the consequences
:02:17. > :02:21.of our wars of intervention. This is not just me,
:02:22. > :02:24.as I said, this is MI5, it's Foreign Affairs Select Committee,
:02:25. > :02:27.it's a number of other people. But I'm struggling to find the role
:02:28. > :02:29.of foreign policy you see Islamic State was founded well
:02:30. > :02:32.before the invasion of Iraq. It's murdering people across Europe
:02:33. > :02:35.because it hates our values. Only last year they said this,
:02:36. > :02:38."Some might argue that your foreign policies are what drives our hatred
:02:39. > :02:41.but this particular reason for hating you is secondary,
:02:42. > :02:44.even if you were to stop bombing us, Our primary reason for hating
:02:45. > :02:50.you will not crease to exist It's a totally perverted
:02:51. > :02:57.form of Islam. No, it's not Islam at all,
:02:58. > :03:02.what we have is a total The point I'm making and the point
:03:03. > :03:11.that many others have made, not of necessarily Labour opinion,
:03:12. > :03:14.or any other, quite a wide range of opinion across the spectrum
:03:15. > :03:16.is that you have the consequences of our interventions in Afghanistan,
:03:17. > :03:19.in Iraq, in Libya, leaving large numbers of ungoverned spaces,
:03:20. > :03:21.leaving people in a desperate situation, who themselves may become
:03:22. > :03:24.prey to that form of perversion, and I think it would be unwise
:03:25. > :03:27.of any government to ignore that but that is exactly
:03:28. > :03:29.what the Foreign Affairs Select But they're targeting young
:03:30. > :03:41.girls at a pop concert because they hate our values,
:03:42. > :03:43.they said they hate I agree, they hate those liberal
:03:44. > :03:53.values, they hate the idea of women being able to enjoy themselves
:03:54. > :03:56.and all the liberal values and that was the whole point
:03:57. > :03:58.of my speech this morning. We've got to
:03:59. > :04:00.defend our liberal values. I mean, what was the foreign
:04:01. > :04:04.policy of Sweden? The result of even
:04:05. > :04:05.Sweden being attacked? The foreign policy issue has
:04:06. > :04:08.to be for all of us. What is happening in a number
:04:09. > :04:11.of countries, where we have intervened and where there is a lack
:04:12. > :04:18.of any coherent form of... Well, Andrew, shouldn't we look
:04:19. > :04:22.at where the sources are coming Surely any sensible person
:04:23. > :04:26.would want to do that. Well, you're the one that raised
:04:27. > :04:28.foreign policy today. The Yazidi women, enslaved
:04:29. > :04:38.and sexually assaulted and killed. The Yazidi women -
:04:39. > :04:41.what was their foreign policy? Andrew, I am not defending any
:04:42. > :04:43.attacks on women or anybody else. What I'm saying is that it would be
:04:44. > :04:49.unwise of any government or anywhere in the world to ignore
:04:50. > :04:51.the issue of instability gives a space for that kind
:04:52. > :04:54.of perversion of Islam Barack Obama has said as much,
:04:55. > :05:03.many others have said as much. You've called for, your phrase was,
:05:04. > :05:06.smarter ways today, to deal with countries harbouring
:05:07. > :05:08.terrorists but you wouldn't put boots on the ground,
:05:09. > :05:11.you wouldn't bomb the terrorists, you wouldn't use drones to take out
:05:12. > :05:13.the terrorist leaders Isis doesn't get its
:05:14. > :05:23.money from nowhere. Isis doesn't get its
:05:24. > :05:24.arms from nowhere. Isis does have a whole lot
:05:25. > :05:27.of connections around the world, financial and others,
:05:28. > :05:29.which I think need to be robustly Well, that's a good
:05:30. > :05:41.start for doing it. The other one is to look
:05:42. > :05:45.at the situation in Libya, where you have a lack of government,
:05:46. > :05:48.where you need stronger presence of UN diplomacy in order to bring
:05:49. > :05:51.about the start of some stronger form of government there,
:05:52. > :05:53.otherwise you've got a problem which isn't going to go away
:05:54. > :05:56.and that is a view that I put forward in what was intended to be
:05:57. > :05:59.a thoughtful contribution this morning of how we deal with these
:06:00. > :06:02.things and I think you'll find, actually, quite a lot
:06:03. > :06:04.of public will not disagree Well, we live in an age
:06:05. > :06:12.of terrorism, that's clear. One of the most important
:06:13. > :06:15.responsibilities of being Prime Minister is keeping
:06:16. > :06:17.the British people safe. Why would the British people want
:06:18. > :06:19.as their leader, a man I didn't support the IRA,
:06:20. > :06:23.I don't support the IRA, what I want everywhere is a peace
:06:24. > :06:26.process, what I want everywhere We went through all the horrors
:06:27. > :06:30.of Northern Ireland, all through the '70s and the '80s,
:06:31. > :06:41.through the period of the Troubles. And eventually came
:06:42. > :06:44.from that, a peace process, the Good Friday Agreement and now
:06:45. > :06:46.relatively peace and stability and actually, Northern Ireland has
:06:47. > :06:49.been a bit of a model It certainly helped in the peace
:06:50. > :06:55.process in Colombia. It's a model that is
:06:56. > :06:57.used in trying to bring communities together
:06:58. > :07:01.in South Africa and other places. I think there's something we can
:07:02. > :07:04.all learn from Northern Ireland. Where the two big divides,
:07:05. > :07:06.the Nationalist tradition and the Unionist tradition,
:07:07. > :07:09.came together on a basis of recognising a different
:07:10. > :07:10.tradition each had. You say you didn't support
:07:11. > :07:20.the IRA but you invited to tea in the Commons,
:07:21. > :07:26.a few weeks after the Brighton bomb, which tried to destroy
:07:27. > :07:28.our elected government. You stood for a minute's silence
:07:29. > :07:30.to honour, your word, Mr Corbyn, to honour,
:07:31. > :07:32.IRA terrorists killed Throughout the '80s and the '90s
:07:33. > :07:38.you spoke at scores of hardline Republican gatherings which backed
:07:39. > :07:41.the IRA and the arms struggle. I always wanted and
:07:42. > :07:43.always do want peace. Always want a dialogue
:07:44. > :07:45.between people of vastly And the minute's silence
:07:46. > :07:57.you referred to was in 1987, it was for ALL who had died
:07:58. > :07:59.in Northern Ireland. In honour of the eight IRA
:08:00. > :08:02.terrorists who had been killed. I said ALL those that had died
:08:03. > :08:07.in Northern Ireland. But the purpose of the meeting
:08:08. > :08:11.was to honour these terrorists. As you went to all these hardline
:08:12. > :08:14.Republican meetings, they were backed by the IRA
:08:15. > :08:20.and its apologists. At any time publicly,
:08:21. > :08:22.did you urge them to give up I always said that the bombing
:08:23. > :08:26.process would never work. There wasn't a military solution
:08:27. > :08:29.to be found in Northern Ireland. I made that very clear
:08:30. > :08:33.in the House of Commons. But did you urge the IRA to stop
:08:34. > :08:36.the bombs and the bullets or its front people that
:08:37. > :08:39.you did meet all the time? I obviously did meet people
:08:40. > :08:43.from Sinn Fein, as indeed I met people from other organisations
:08:44. > :08:45.and I always made the point that there had to be a dialogue
:08:46. > :08:51.and a peace process. Now a lot of people did
:08:52. > :08:54.a lot of work on this, and eventually it was Mo Mowlam
:08:55. > :08:57.as much as anybody else, who managed to bring those groups
:08:58. > :08:59.together and she used a lot of connections
:09:00. > :09:01.in order to bring those people together and I think we should
:09:02. > :09:03.recognise that as... We certainly recognise Mo Mowlam,
:09:04. > :09:06.it's your role I'm trying to find out, because the former IRA
:09:07. > :09:08.terrorist leader, Shaun O'Callaghan, ever, at any time in promoting peace
:09:09. > :09:25.in Northern Ireland." He said the peace you sought
:09:26. > :09:28.was a victory for the IRA. Well, I've never had a discussion
:09:29. > :09:30.with Shaun O'Callaghan. As far as I'm concerned,
:09:31. > :09:34.the whole process had to be that there wasn't going to be
:09:35. > :09:37.a military solution The Prevention of Terrorism Act that
:09:38. > :09:41.affected a lot of my constituents was something that was actually
:09:42. > :09:42.criminalising young Irish people mainly in Britain
:09:43. > :09:45.but also in Northern Ireland We had the first
:09:46. > :09:49.ceasefire, eventually... My role was supporting a process
:09:50. > :09:54.which would bring about a dialogue The British Government
:09:55. > :10:01.at that time was putting a broadcasting ban on Sinn Fein,
:10:02. > :10:04.a travel ban on Sinn Fein, and a series of anti-terror
:10:05. > :10:07.legislations which were not really doing anything to bring
:10:08. > :10:10.about fair convictions. Remember, I was also
:10:11. > :10:12.the constituency MP for one of the Guildford Four,
:10:13. > :10:14.Paul Hill, who was the first person arrested under
:10:15. > :10:16.the Prevention of Terrorism Act, But that doesn't mean you had
:10:17. > :10:28.to speak at over 70 hardline Now you may not have heard
:10:29. > :10:32.of or dealt with Shaun O'Callaghan but you will have heard of and met
:10:33. > :10:35.the highly respected Sheamus Mallon. He was one of the architects
:10:36. > :10:37.of the peace process. He was at the heart of it
:10:38. > :10:40.along with John Hume. Sheamus Mallon says quote: "He never
:10:41. > :10:42.heard anyone mention Corbyn at all in the peace process
:10:43. > :10:45.but you very clearly took the side of the IRA and that was incompatible
:10:46. > :10:48.with working with peace." He never said that
:10:49. > :10:52.to me in Parliament. I don't doubt he said
:10:53. > :10:55.it at some point. Happy to work with him
:10:56. > :10:59.and John Hume and others in Parliament, and I was a member
:11:00. > :11:02.of the Northern Ireland Committee of the PLP in which we visited
:11:03. > :11:04.Northern Ireland and met Isn't it the truth, is it,
:11:05. > :11:11.that you basically supported the supported the arms struggle
:11:12. > :11:13.for a united Ireland but now you want to be Prime Minister,
:11:14. > :11:16.you have to distance What I want is to learn the lessons
:11:17. > :11:22.from Northern Ireland and also to make sure that during the Brexit
:11:23. > :11:25.negotiations, we don't return to or receive any kind of hard
:11:26. > :11:27.border between the north Well but you see we look
:11:28. > :11:31.at your record and we can't find evidence of you urging the IRA
:11:32. > :11:34.to put away its guns and its bombs and then
:11:35. > :11:36.we see your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, he said
:11:37. > :11:38.he honoured those involved He backed the bombs
:11:39. > :11:44.and the bullets, his words. Your Shadow Home Secretary,
:11:45. > :11:47.Diane Abbott, said an IRA victory against the British state would be
:11:48. > :11:50.a victory for all of us. You've surrounded yourself
:11:51. > :11:57.with like-minded IRA supporters. John McDonnell apologised for those
:11:58. > :11:59.remarks on Question Time. Well, he apologised
:12:00. > :12:03.for those remarks. Andrew, the position has to be
:12:04. > :12:08.that we want peace around the world. But in 2003, the peace
:12:09. > :12:10.process was well underway and your Shadow Chancellor said
:12:11. > :12:16.he honoured the IRA arms struggle. I've made it very, very clear,
:12:17. > :12:21.that I think what has happened their lives in Northern Ireland,
:12:22. > :12:29.it was an appalling situation. And the people killed
:12:30. > :12:33.by Loyalist bombs as well. All deaths are appalling,
:12:34. > :12:35.all deaths are wrong, there isn't a military solution
:12:36. > :12:37.to a conflict and traditions There has to be a better way
:12:38. > :12:45.and a better process of doing it. But most people watching it tonight,
:12:46. > :12:47.they won't know that you were so close to the hardline
:12:48. > :12:50.Republicans and to the apologists to the IRA, don't you think
:12:51. > :12:53.they won't just be surprised, Andrew, people watching tonight,
:12:54. > :12:58.they will want to know that they've got a government that's serious
:12:59. > :13:00.about their security and their safety and also serious
:13:01. > :13:03.about ensuring we look to how we deal with be
:13:04. > :13:11.issues in the future. We mentioned Libya
:13:12. > :13:13.a few moments ago. I think we have to look at these
:13:14. > :13:16.issues as the immediate security, the collective security
:13:17. > :13:18.and the longer term If I look at all the IRA
:13:19. > :13:27.atrocities from the Harrods bomb, through to Eniskillen,
:13:28. > :13:36.Lisbon, Omagh, not Harrods bomb, through to Eniskillen,
:13:37. > :13:38.Lisburn, Omagh, not once is there a record
:13:39. > :13:40.of you condemning that. And every time you voted,
:13:41. > :13:42.56 times against giving the security forces more powers,
:13:43. > :13:44.why would people trust Andrew, on the Antiterrorist
:13:45. > :13:48.Legislation, that came before Parliament, I voted to ensure
:13:49. > :13:50.there was legal oversight of our That there wasn't
:13:51. > :13:54.executive power given. But you voted 56 times
:13:55. > :13:56.against toughening David Davis and a number of others
:13:57. > :14:06.voted with me on those occasions because they too were concerned
:14:07. > :14:08.about executive powers and executive orders overriding a court process
:14:09. > :14:11.and I think the best defence against terrorism, the best defence
:14:12. > :14:13.against any attack on democracy is to protect the independence
:14:14. > :14:20.of a judicial process away from the political process
:14:21. > :14:23.and the Prevention of Terrorism Act ...Was eventually repealed,
:14:24. > :14:32.partly because of the executive It's the military alliance that
:14:33. > :14:38.all previous Labour and Tory governments think has kept this
:14:39. > :14:40.nation and the West safe It was created by
:14:41. > :14:45.a Labour government. But you've called NATO,
:14:46. > :14:47."a very dangerous Frankenstein of an organisation,
:14:48. > :14:48.a danger to world peace." Two years ago you said
:14:49. > :14:51.it should be wound up. What I've always believed is that
:14:52. > :15:00.NATO was a product in 1948 of the awful trajectory
:15:01. > :15:02.of the Cold War. We had the Warsaw Pact,
:15:03. > :15:05.which was formed a little bit later I thought at this point,
:15:06. > :15:17.when we were into a process of rapprochement across Europe,
:15:18. > :15:19.Gorbachev and a common European home, maybe that was the time
:15:20. > :15:22.for the organisation of Security and Corporation in Europe to take
:15:23. > :15:28.over, sadly, that didn't happen. I think the role of NATO now has
:15:29. > :15:32.to be to build good relations with the neighbours and insist
:15:33. > :15:34.on democracy and human rights being part of that
:15:35. > :15:38.agenda of good relations. But it was only three years ago that
:15:39. > :15:41.you called it a very dangerous Frankenstein and a danger
:15:42. > :15:43.to world peace. I want to work within Nato
:15:44. > :15:49.to achieve stability. I want to work within Nato
:15:50. > :15:51.to promote human rights and democracy, and under a Labour
:15:52. > :15:53.government, that's exactly But do you think
:15:54. > :15:57.it's a Frankenstein? I think all organisations
:15:58. > :16:00.need to be accountable. So have you changed
:16:01. > :16:02.your views on Nato? You could if you
:16:03. > :16:11.answered my question. It was a product initially
:16:12. > :16:18.of the Atlantic Charter in 1942... We know the history, Mr Corbyn,
:16:19. > :16:21.but I'm trying to work out if you would be a committed
:16:22. > :16:24.supporter of Nato, as every previous Prime Minister
:16:25. > :16:27.of this country has been. I would be a committed
:16:28. > :16:29.member of that alliance in order to promote peace,
:16:30. > :16:34.justice, human rights and democracy. And I believe that we can make
:16:35. > :16:39.a positive contribution on that. You're a lifelong campaigner
:16:40. > :16:43.for unilateral nuclear disarmament. So under your leadership,
:16:44. > :16:47.Labour's support for the renewal of the Trident deterrent is not
:16:48. > :16:50.credible, is it? That's what the Labour conference
:16:51. > :16:54.and Parliament have decided to do. I will also ensure that we play
:16:55. > :16:58.a full part in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to bring
:16:59. > :17:01.about multilateral nuclear But we will also have a security
:17:02. > :17:06.review to look at the other issues that we face,
:17:07. > :17:10.such as the cyber threat, which was obviously very serious
:17:11. > :17:12.to our National Health Service only a week ago, as well as, of course,
:17:13. > :17:16.the issues that have come to the front because of the tragedy
:17:17. > :17:20.of Manchester last week. That's not what I asked
:17:21. > :17:26.you, Mr Corbyn. Do you support the
:17:27. > :17:31.renewal of Trident? Everybody knows I voted
:17:32. > :17:32.against the renewal of it, because I wanted to go
:17:33. > :17:35.in a different direction. That is the decision
:17:36. > :17:38.that's been taken. But can you tell the British people
:17:39. > :17:47.tonight that you support We're going ahead with
:17:48. > :17:49.the programme, which has been agreed by Parliament and voted
:17:50. > :17:49.on by the Labour Party. Listen, my views on nuclear
:17:50. > :17:51.weapons are well known. I want to achieve a nuclear-free
:17:52. > :17:55.world to multilateral disarmament and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation
:17:56. > :17:57.Treaty. I want to bring about peace
:17:58. > :18:04.and I also want us to focus on what I believe to be serious
:18:05. > :18:07.threats, like cyber I understand that,
:18:08. > :18:11.but we need a simple answer You cannot say to the British
:18:12. > :18:16.people tonight that "I, Jeremy Corbyn, will support
:18:17. > :18:20.the renewal of Trident". But you can't bring
:18:21. > :18:24.yourself to say that. We are going to pursue that
:18:25. > :18:27.and at the same time negotiate multilateral disarmament
:18:28. > :18:31.and a nuclear-free world. Listen, do we really want to live
:18:32. > :18:34.in a world where there's a danger So why don't you say
:18:35. > :18:38.you're against it? I've made the point of the position
:18:39. > :18:42.that we are adopting as a party Will the defence review
:18:43. > :18:45.that you want to call if you become prime minister,
:18:46. > :18:47.will that include Trident? It will include a look
:18:48. > :18:50.at the role of nuclear weapons. It will look at the totality,
:18:51. > :18:56.as every other government assuming office has had
:18:57. > :18:59.a strategic defence review. There are many senior people
:19:00. > :19:04.in our armed forces who also want us to focus as well on the issues I've
:19:05. > :19:09.mentioned of cyber I understand that, but let's just
:19:10. > :19:12.clarify this tonight. You cannot tell the British people
:19:13. > :19:15.that you are in favour of the renewal of Trident,
:19:16. > :19:18.but you do want a defence review and that will include Trident,
:19:19. > :19:21.and you could get rid of it. It would include the role of nuclear
:19:22. > :19:27.weapons and other issues. Listen, it's there in the programme,
:19:28. > :19:31.what's going ahead. Unemployment is now
:19:32. > :19:35.at a 40-year low. We're one of the fastest growing
:19:36. > :19:38.major advanced economies. Companies flock to invest
:19:39. > :19:41.in the United Kingdom, but you're now promising
:19:42. > :19:44.a massive spending binge. It's to be funded by more borrowing
:19:45. > :19:48.and huge tax rises on the very businesses and people that have
:19:49. > :19:50.helped to create over Don't you risk our
:19:51. > :19:54.economic recovery? 95% of the population will pay no
:19:55. > :19:58.more tax under Labour, no more national insurance
:19:59. > :20:01.and no higher VAT. What we have is a country
:20:02. > :20:05.where 6 million people earn less We have a country where there
:20:06. > :20:09.are unprecedented waiting times and waiting lists in our hospitals,
:20:10. > :20:13.a million people denied social care and an increasing number of people
:20:14. > :20:17.sleeping on our streets. This has to be the time that we stop
:20:18. > :20:22.making the poorest in our society pay the price of austerity and start
:20:23. > :20:26.investing for the future. We're proposing an investment
:20:27. > :20:29.bank which would invest in all parts of this country,
:20:30. > :20:33.particularly those areas that have seen precious little investment
:20:34. > :20:36.since the end of the coal industry and in some places since the end
:20:37. > :20:39.of the steel industry. You say 95% of the country
:20:40. > :20:41.won't pay extra income tax, but the Institute
:20:42. > :20:44.for Fiscal Studies, which is a pretty independent
:20:45. > :20:48.arbitrator of these things at elections, says there is no way
:20:49. > :20:52.that tens of billions of pounds of tax rises would affect only
:20:53. > :20:55.a small group at the very top. They say your plans
:20:56. > :21:01."would not work". No, they haven't said
:21:02. > :21:03.they will not work. They have been through the funding
:21:04. > :21:11.of it, and I'm pleased they have. They've done the same
:21:12. > :21:13.with the Conservatives. What they're saying is that
:21:14. > :21:18.you would have to collect your new taxes as well as the increase
:21:19. > :21:21.in corporation tax, obviously. You would have to be
:21:22. > :21:24.assiduous in chasing down They've also said that our
:21:25. > :21:28.investment would bring about a better society
:21:29. > :21:34.and a more harmonious society. They said that you're
:21:35. > :21:36.going for the highest ever peacetime level of taxation,
:21:37. > :21:42.the highest ever. Well, they're not correct on that,
:21:43. > :21:45.actually, because the level of corporation tax we're proposing
:21:46. > :21:50.to go to would be 26%, which is actually less
:21:51. > :21:53.than it was in 2010. But they're talking
:21:54. > :21:55.about the overall level of taxation, which would be the highest ever
:21:56. > :21:57.in peacetime, under I dispute that figure, but OK,
:21:58. > :22:04.we'll have that debate with the IFS. Do we continue underfunding health,
:22:05. > :22:12.expecting headteachers to collect Do we continue with the horrors
:22:13. > :22:20.of unfunded social care Do we continue with a housing crisis
:22:21. > :22:26.that affects the homeless right through to the more middle classes
:22:27. > :22:28.whose children can't Our offer is, we will
:22:29. > :22:35.invest for the future. Invest in the future
:22:36. > :22:38.of our children. And part of the investing
:22:39. > :22:40.in the future, you plan What we will do is for the public
:22:41. > :22:47.ownership elements, that will be in exchange for bonds
:22:48. > :22:51.for shares in it. The bond is a government bond
:22:52. > :23:00.which would be serviced But in addition, we would
:23:01. > :23:04.have control of it. Take the water industry,
:23:05. > :23:12.for example, which has been a method of siphoning off profits out of this
:23:13. > :23:15.country to offshore companies who've made a lot of money,
:23:16. > :23:18.at the same time leaving us with expensive water,
:23:19. > :23:20.and in some cases very bad But you would need to borrow
:23:21. > :23:26.to buy the utilities. No, it's a swap of the shares
:23:27. > :23:30.for a government bond. But if you're issuing bonds,
:23:31. > :23:33.you're issuing government debt. Issuing bonds that we own,
:23:34. > :23:38.which would be paid But you said you would cut
:23:39. > :23:43.the water utilities' profits. That means you wouldn't
:23:44. > :23:46.have the money to pay for the bond. Instead of profits being siphoned
:23:47. > :23:49.off, they would remain here. National debt's already
:23:50. > :23:54.an incredible 1.7 trillion. If you borrow to invest
:23:55. > :23:58.on top of the 50 we do, you say you need to borrow another
:23:59. > :24:02.25 to nationalise. You may have to borrow,
:24:03. > :24:04.if the IFS is right, No, we will not borrow
:24:05. > :24:07.for day-to-day spending. But you might have to,
:24:08. > :24:10.if the IFS is right. Our national debt, which has already
:24:11. > :24:13.soared under the current government, would soar even more under
:24:14. > :24:15.Labour, wouldn't it? No, because we have the rule
:24:16. > :24:18.that we would only borrow We would not borrow
:24:19. > :24:22.for revenue expenditure. And what we'd get in return
:24:23. > :24:32.is investment in better services. That in turn would
:24:33. > :24:37.encourage economic growth. Listen, we have a huge
:24:38. > :24:39.imbalance of investment. Far too much goes to London
:24:40. > :24:42.and the south-east in Far too little goes
:24:43. > :24:45.to the north-east, Those issues have to be addressed,
:24:46. > :24:50.hence the National Investment Bank, which will be regionally based
:24:51. > :24:53.across the UK. For people watching tonight
:24:54. > :24:57.who are looking for the government to reduce immigration numbers,
:24:58. > :25:01.Labour's not the party and you're not the leader
:25:02. > :25:03.to deliver that, are you? We are in favour of managed
:25:04. > :25:08.immigration when the free movement ends when we leave
:25:09. > :25:11.the European Union. We are against people being brought
:25:12. > :25:16.in as wholesale workforces to undermine existing working
:25:17. > :25:19.conditions and workers. There will be managed
:25:20. > :25:21.migration in the future, based on the economic needs
:25:22. > :25:26.of our society. We have had Theresa May promising
:25:27. > :25:29.in three elections to make What I'm saying is that
:25:30. > :25:36.the immigration issue would be dealt with on the basis of necessary
:25:37. > :25:39.family reunions and also Well, if the economy is doing well
:25:40. > :25:49.and we train people properly, then the need to bring in skilled
:25:50. > :25:51.workers from overseas Mr Corbyn, many voters in this
:25:52. > :25:58.election, it will be the first time they've had a chance to look
:25:59. > :26:00.at you as a potential You've been a backbencher
:26:01. > :26:04.for most of your life, Should they listen to those
:26:05. > :26:12.who know you best, your MPs? Your own backbenchers,
:26:13. > :26:15.John Woodcock, a Labour MP, says "I will not countenance ever
:26:16. > :26:18.voting to make Jeremy Corbyn Neil Coyle, a Labour MP,
:26:19. > :26:23.says "The reason why lifelong Labour voters aren't backing us is Jeremy
:26:24. > :26:25.Corbyn". Alan Johnson, former
:26:26. > :26:28.Labour Home Secretary, says you're "useless,
:26:29. > :26:31.incompetent and incapable". Listen, this manifesto has been
:26:32. > :26:39.agreed by everyone in our party. This manifesto has enormous
:26:40. > :26:42.levels of public support. This manifesto has been
:26:43. > :26:45.campaigned for day in, People like the contents of it,
:26:46. > :26:51.because it offers them hope. It offers our young people
:26:52. > :26:54.an opportunity to get the education they want,
:26:55. > :26:57.to get the skilled jobs they want and it offers hope in the sense
:26:58. > :27:00.of community cohesion. And I invite everyone
:27:01. > :27:06.to have a look at the policies. And they will and the policies
:27:07. > :27:08.are there, but the people What I'm trying to say is,
:27:09. > :27:14.should the people who don't know you listen to those who do
:27:15. > :27:17.and follow these judgments? I would hope that people
:27:18. > :27:21.would judge me and our party on the basis of the principles we're
:27:22. > :27:25.putting forward in this election - an investment for our future,
:27:26. > :27:29.a better future for younger people in our society, proper treatment
:27:30. > :27:33.of those who need help and care and support through a social care
:27:34. > :27:37.system, and an education system that doesn't undermine our children
:27:38. > :27:41.with a lack of funding. Listen, I've spent my life
:27:42. > :27:47.in politics trying to get social I relish the opportunity of doing
:27:48. > :27:53.the same in government. Of course you do, but why should
:27:54. > :27:56.the voters trust you when so many even of your own MPs
:27:57. > :27:59.don't trust you? Well, you could have quite easily
:28:00. > :28:02.got quotes from a number of people You chose not to do that, and that,
:28:03. > :28:15.Andrew, is your choice. And it will be the choice
:28:16. > :28:33.of the people on June 8th. That was Labour leader Jeremy Kordic
:28:34. > :28:39.in talking to Andrew Neil. Here in Ebbw Vale it's time for the audience
:28:40. > :28:45.to question Labour's leader in Wales. Please welcome the First
:28:46. > :28:52.Minister, Carwyn Jones. APPLAUSE
:28:53. > :28:56.Our audience tonight by the way is a mix of undecided voters and
:28:57. > :29:01.supporters of the main parties. We start with our first question, which
:29:02. > :29:08.tonight comes from Ailsa Dunn. Thank you. Noswaith dda. In the wake of
:29:09. > :29:11.the Manchester bombing is Jeremy Corbyn right to say our foreign
:29:12. > :29:16.policy has increased our risk of being attacked? Thanks for the
:29:17. > :29:21.question. There will come a time for considering that, but it's not the
:29:22. > :29:25.time this evening. We meet in the shadow of an appalling attack, where
:29:26. > :29:30.innocent people have been murdered and we know that that's changed the
:29:31. > :29:33.way in which the debate has taken place over the course of the last
:29:34. > :29:36.week. These people can't be bargained with. They can't be
:29:37. > :29:41.negotiated with. They will always try and kill people who don't agree
:29:42. > :29:45.with what they do, and that includes other Muslims, who are not Muslim
:29:46. > :29:48.enough for them. People say to me, why do we start the election
:29:49. > :29:52.campaign? It has to be done sensitively but it's part of our
:29:53. > :29:55.democracy. These people are trying to stop is leading the lives we lead
:29:56. > :29:59.now and on election campaign is an important part of what we are doing
:30:00. > :30:03.now. It's important to have a discussion about ideas. We can't
:30:04. > :30:09.forget what happened in Manchester, but to allow that to interfere with
:30:10. > :30:12.our freedom, our democracy, is to allow terrorists to win, who should
:30:13. > :30:18.never ever do that. That debate is for another day. Now it's hugely
:30:19. > :30:20.important the police get on with their investigations and we can make
:30:21. > :30:24.sure the people responsible are dealt with.
:30:25. > :30:27.APPLAUSE Are you saying then that Jeremy
:30:28. > :30:32.Corbyn was wrong to raise this right now? Was he insensitive to do so.
:30:33. > :30:35.You just said now is not the time. It's an issue to think of. It
:30:36. > :30:39.doesn't make a difference now because bluntly these people, they
:30:40. > :30:43.will haters, whatever we do. No matter what we do, if we do nothing
:30:44. > :30:48.at all, if we don't get involved in a military conflict they will still
:30:49. > :30:51.try and cause harm and death to us. The only way of dealing with them is
:30:52. > :30:56.to have the right level of intelligence, to make sure as Jeremy
:30:57. > :31:00.Corbyn said that their supply of weapons is cut off, the money supply
:31:01. > :31:03.is cut off, to remove the means whereby they can cause such
:31:04. > :31:06.destruction, but there's no room for negotiation with these people. They
:31:07. > :31:08.will never accept anything other than what they want and that's
:31:09. > :31:15.something we can never accept. Can we take viewpoint from the
:31:16. > :31:18.gentleman in the back? The lady's question was about foreign policy
:31:19. > :31:22.attached to it as a possible cause for what we're going through in this
:31:23. > :31:26.country and most of Europe to do with terrorism. You say it's not the
:31:27. > :31:31.right time. There is no such thing as not the right time, it's all the
:31:32. > :31:36.time, its current, it's going to get worse. We should be relying on
:31:37. > :31:42.politicians like yourself to debate this and find a resolution, a
:31:43. > :31:47.solution to these problems. We can all condone and be sad... Not
:31:48. > :31:50.condone, sorry, disagree, and be very sad about what happened in
:31:51. > :31:57.Manchester but it is a wakening upside. -- sign.
:31:58. > :32:02.I don't want to worry about it today, I worry about it tomorrow,
:32:03. > :32:06.like gone with the win. You should be worrying about it every day of
:32:07. > :32:11.the year and doing something about it. APPLAUSE
:32:12. > :32:17.Many of those who died in Manchester are the same age as my kids, I want
:32:18. > :32:22.young people to walk our streets safely. The priority today is to
:32:23. > :32:25.make sure the police investigation continues, that those people who are
:32:26. > :32:28.responsible tracks down and the police must get on with their
:32:29. > :32:32.investigation. The first priority is to make sure people are safe. Of
:32:33. > :32:36.course there has to be a debate as to how you undermine and undercut
:32:37. > :32:40.the source and cause of terrorism, but that, I'd say, is a valid point,
:32:41. > :32:44.it is a debate we have to have, but for today it's all about making sure
:32:45. > :32:49.that those people who perpetuated this atrocity are dealt with, caught
:32:50. > :32:53.and jailed. That the Chief constables to do, not you as a
:32:54. > :32:56.politician directly. It's all of us, not as for the police, all of us in
:32:57. > :33:00.this room and all the public watching, we all have to be
:33:01. > :33:03.vigilant, we all have a part to play in making sure terrorism doesn't
:33:04. > :33:07.win. We also in Manchester were members of the public did, the
:33:08. > :33:10.fantastic response. We saw the help they gave to the emergency services.
:33:11. > :33:17.When we pulled together, we're strong. And this week, it's time for
:33:18. > :33:20.us to show that despite political differences, despite the fact we
:33:21. > :33:24.have debate on different policies, at the end of the day we all believe
:33:25. > :33:30.in freedom, democracy and right for people to go about their lives
:33:31. > :33:33.without being with death. But your leader... Your leader Jeremy Corbyn
:33:34. > :33:37.has put this link on the agenda today. He's the man who wants to go
:33:38. > :33:41.to Downing Street. Do you see that link between our involvement in
:33:42. > :33:45.foreign conflict and the terror attacks here in the UK? Or do you
:33:46. > :33:48.not see them related? Because that is the debate. I don't think it
:33:49. > :33:51.would have made a difference to the attack we saw this week. I don't
:33:52. > :33:55.think it would have made a difference to those people who
:33:56. > :34:05.wanted to go to Manchester and kill people. They are just fanatics, it's
:34:06. > :34:07.nothing to do with what's happening elsewhere in the world, they are
:34:08. > :34:11.just fanatics. They raise a debate to be had about how we deal with the
:34:12. > :34:13.source of terror. Jeremy did say he condemned utterly what happened in
:34:14. > :34:16.Manchester this week, but we have to have a debate at some point in terms
:34:17. > :34:19.of how we get rid of the money, the weapons and the source, how do we
:34:20. > :34:23.cut the roots of this terror? The first thing we have to do is deal
:34:24. > :34:26.with those threatening us. On that point before we take more points,
:34:27. > :34:32.Jeremy Corbyn made it clear he sees that as a source of the conflicts.
:34:33. > :34:35.Did you back the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? I didn't back the war
:34:36. > :34:39.in Iraq because they took the view not enough had been done to plan
:34:40. > :34:43.after the war was over. We saw what happened. You can't just say if you
:34:44. > :34:47.go into a country that suddenly it'll become stable after a few
:34:48. > :34:50.weeks, it doesn't work that way and unfortunately that was the lesson
:34:51. > :34:55.learned from Iraq. Let's take some hands. Carwyn Jones, I think it is
:34:56. > :35:00.about now, because these atrocities are affecting even us, people have
:35:01. > :35:06.lived in this country, we've been very loyal to the country. In your
:35:07. > :35:09.own opinion, do you think the current government has got their
:35:10. > :35:14.immigration policy wrong? Because some people have lived in this
:35:15. > :35:18.country, but they've got their families, for example myself, I'm
:35:19. > :35:21.from Zimbabwe, I can't bring my son to bring with me. But I've been
:35:22. > :35:24.loyal to the Welsh government and liberty are 17 years, but my son
:35:25. > :35:36.can't come here. Something has to be done. The French have the same issue
:35:37. > :35:40.there. It's a question of making sure people are prevented from being
:35:41. > :35:45.radicalised when they are in the UK. The key to this is good
:35:46. > :35:49.intelligence, making sure... Nothing is perfect, we know that... Making
:35:50. > :35:52.sure where there is a threat it identified early. That's the way you
:35:53. > :35:56.try to deal with these issues. It doesn't always work, we saw that in
:35:57. > :36:00.Manchester this week. From my perspective, what absolutely crucial
:36:01. > :36:04.is that we recognise the vast majority of people, whatever their
:36:05. > :36:09.background, whatever their religion, deplore what happened in Manchester.
:36:10. > :36:12.We're talking a tiny number of people, but they represent a threat
:36:13. > :36:16.and it has to be dealt with. Gentleman in the checked shirt. Caen
:36:17. > :36:19.do you think Tony Blair has anything to answer for?
:36:20. > :36:27.My argument with Tony Blair is that the war in Iraq was started in
:36:28. > :36:30.particular without clear vision as to what would happen when it
:36:31. > :36:34.finished. The echoes of that are still with us, let's not pretend
:36:35. > :36:38.otherwise. Afghanistan was one issue. It was a nature walk all the
:36:39. > :36:45.major countries saw it as an attack on each and every one of them. -- it
:36:46. > :36:50.was a Nato war. I said at the time of the invasion of Iraq it was a
:36:51. > :36:52.question of, let's go in there, get rid of Saddam Hussein, everything
:36:53. > :36:58.will be fine. It doesn't work that way in a country ridden by sectarian
:36:59. > :37:02.divisions, as Iraq was and is. It was never going to be that simple.
:37:03. > :37:05.My argument was, it was never a question of gung ho, let's get in
:37:06. > :37:09.there, it'll be fine, everybody will turn into Democrats overnight. It
:37:10. > :37:15.didn't work that way. That's what Blair got wrong in my opinion. Back
:37:16. > :37:19.to the question, do you feel you've had an answer? Yes, I think so, I
:37:20. > :37:28.personally think one of the issues is that some of our media within a
:37:29. > :37:32.nice people immigrating here. And talk about Muslims as being
:37:33. > :37:39.terrorists. And I don't think that helps anybody. You don't get hate...
:37:40. > :37:42.Hate breeds hate, really. You're absolutely wet, these people are
:37:43. > :37:46.terrorists, pure and simple. They have a narrow and perverted view of
:37:47. > :37:52.a religion. Every religion has done this over the years. Srebrenica.
:37:53. > :37:56.Muslims massacred by people calling themselves Christian. Northern
:37:57. > :38:01.Ireland, both sides call themselves Christian. Fanaticism doesn't rest
:38:02. > :38:05.with one religion. It in everybody's interest to make sure fanaticism is
:38:06. > :38:10.dealt with and lives are saved. It's time for a second question. Which
:38:11. > :38:15.tonight comes from Gareth. I haven't heard strong support from any Welsh
:38:16. > :38:24.Labour for Jeremy Corbyn, will you publicly back in 100% to be our next
:38:25. > :38:28.Prime Minister? Yes. -- back him. APPLAUSE
:38:29. > :38:32.I hope that's a direct answer. That is a direct answer. On this stage
:38:33. > :38:36.last year you said it was early days, you have doubts about Jeremy
:38:37. > :38:41.Corbyn, what has changed your mind? It's a question of, what is the best
:38:42. > :38:44.future for this country? Do we have more years of Tory cuts, seven years
:38:45. > :38:49.of that, what difference does it make to people's lives? Things have
:38:50. > :38:53.got worse and worse. Or do we base it on hope? That's the difference,
:38:54. > :38:57.do we have some vision for our country or do we carry on seeing the
:38:58. > :39:03.cuts we seen so far and much worse to come, I promise you. During your
:39:04. > :39:06.launch, the Labour manifesto, 45 minute lunch, you didn't mention
:39:07. > :39:11.your leader, so there is a feeling perhaps within the party you're not
:39:12. > :39:13.100% behind him or haven't been. I think I just confirmed that.
:39:14. > :39:25.Everybody convinced? When the assembly was set up, it was
:39:26. > :39:30.said the Welsh assembly would protect us from cuts. And from
:39:31. > :39:33.Westminster. Where has the protection been? Health spending is
:39:34. > :39:36.higher per head than England, education spending is higher than
:39:37. > :39:40.England, we've been able to put new buildings in place, we're in one,
:39:41. > :39:43.this is Welsh government funded. New schools being built across Wales, no
:39:44. > :39:47.schools being built in England. There is a limit to what we can do,
:39:48. > :39:56.we've got a 10% cut in our budget. We could do a lot more for the
:39:57. > :39:59.people of Wales if we had more money, that's obvious. We've done
:40:00. > :40:02.what we can to protect the people of Wales against those cuts, even as
:40:03. > :40:06.our own budget has been cut by so much. I remind Mr Jones, what are
:40:07. > :40:10.you saying about that, Labour control the Welsh assembly, that has
:40:11. > :40:16.driven Wales into this position. You've had decades now of actually
:40:17. > :40:19.running without Westminster, with your own devolved policies, in
:40:20. > :40:24.Wales, and you say about you've pumped money into education, into
:40:25. > :40:29.health service... We aren't a leading in the health service, we
:40:30. > :40:33.aren't leading in education. What have you actually done, but what
:40:34. > :40:37.you're going to do. These are devolved issues and we are focusing
:40:38. > :40:41.on the general election. I'll answer it in this way... There are things
:40:42. > :40:44.we can do but the money comes from London. There is a limit on what we
:40:45. > :40:48.can do according to the budget we get. When your budget is cut by 10%
:40:49. > :40:53.you can't do all the things you would want to. Despite that we've
:40:54. > :40:57.had our best GCSE results ever, we would be standing in a car park now
:40:58. > :41:00.if it wasn't... I pay for my ticket to watch the rugby and I think you
:41:01. > :41:06.should pay for your own ticket to watch the rugby, not spend ?10,000
:41:07. > :41:10.of public money... Public services... Excuse me, sir, the
:41:11. > :41:15.question was about Mr Corbyn, if we can get back to Mr Corbyn. Anybody
:41:16. > :41:21.here who is maybe a Labour supporter who is in favour, not in favour.
:41:22. > :41:24.Gentleman in the front. I went to huge Jeremy Corbyn and rejoined the
:41:25. > :41:29.Labour Party on the basis of the social as I was hearing. Sturridge I
:41:30. > :41:33.went to hear Jeremy Corbyn. My concern is we might not be able to
:41:34. > :41:37.get that socialism through Jeremy Corbyn without the full support of
:41:38. > :41:42.the Labour Party, let alone Labour voters in this country and this
:41:43. > :41:46.area. We can't see a Labour government elected without the
:41:47. > :41:49.support of voters. I want to see a government that wants to invest in
:41:50. > :41:53.people, give the young people a future, looks after old people. That
:41:54. > :41:57.looks at the future with hope and vision. We haven't had that for
:41:58. > :42:02.seven years. We need to change in order to make sure the cuts of the
:42:03. > :42:07.last seven years don't get worse. Believe me, we ain't seen nothing
:42:08. > :42:10.yet if the Tories get back in. Many in the Labour Party think there has
:42:11. > :42:16.been treachery in terms of the parliamentary party specifically.
:42:17. > :42:21.Was Owen Smith for example right to challenge him for the leadership?
:42:22. > :42:24.It's a Democratic party, there was a challenge, the result was clear,
:42:25. > :42:28.what you see is a party united going into an election campaign.
:42:29. > :42:32.Inevitably... I watched the Tories, if you want to see divisions, there
:42:33. > :42:36.are divisions in the Tories believe me. What's important is that the
:42:37. > :42:39.party is able to deliver together for the people, even though there
:42:40. > :42:43.may be divisions, different positions within the party, it in
:42:44. > :42:45.the nature of politics, not everyone agrees on everything. What's
:42:46. > :42:52.important is that those arguments don't get in the way of delivering
:42:53. > :42:56.for people. First Minister, I've been a Labour supporter since I was
:42:57. > :43:01.16. I became a member officially last year. I'm backing Jeremy Corbyn
:43:02. > :43:06.but my problem is, for now, he's too far left. I think we need to be
:43:07. > :43:10.centre-left, because we're going back in time to a Labour, we need to
:43:11. > :43:14.be looking forward, looking forward to the future. At the minute this
:43:15. > :43:19.country isn't so confident in Jeremy Corbyn as we were 20 years ago if he
:43:20. > :43:23.were this far left. It's important to appeal to as many as possible, I
:43:24. > :43:28.think the manifesto produced can do that. Lots of people have said, we
:43:29. > :43:32.agree with the manifesto, it's good stuff. That's what we stand on. It's
:43:33. > :43:36.hugely important in politics never to make promises that you know you
:43:37. > :43:39.can't keep, or you're just doing it to get votes. It's a trap for
:43:40. > :43:44.politicians, 2011 the assembly elections we make promises and kept
:43:45. > :43:49.them. We've done the same for 2016. That's what its politics are bad
:43:50. > :43:52.name, when politicians fall into the temptation of making promises them
:43:53. > :43:58.finding they can't keep them. Time for the third question. It comes
:43:59. > :44:03.from Stephen Jenkins. Thank you. In my view austerity hasn't worked,
:44:04. > :44:07.isn't it time to tax the wealthy and the big corporations more so we can
:44:08. > :44:10.spend more? I'm with you, Stephen, if you look at other countries, is a
:44:11. > :44:15.Scandinavian, tax rates are higher but they are more prosperous than we
:44:16. > :44:19.are. To suggest a low tax economy is more prosperous doesn't work. The
:44:20. > :44:23.job of government is to make life more fair. We know life has got more
:44:24. > :44:28.unfair for people over the years. I've heard people saying, I remember
:44:29. > :44:32.my father was in the colliery, it was a tough job, but it was well
:44:33. > :44:36.paid, pension at the end of it, it was secure. I come on the other
:44:37. > :44:40.hand, people say, I have two jobs, no pension, no security, something
:44:41. > :44:43.has gone wrong. That's exactly what we should be addressing. We
:44:44. > :44:47.shouldn't say, it's OK for somebody who has a job, we shouldn't say,
:44:48. > :44:52.what is the quality and security of that job? What does it pay? That's
:44:53. > :44:56.what we've got to get back to. Austerity, austerity equals Tory
:44:57. > :45:00.cuts, that's what it is at the end of the day. As it got us to a
:45:01. > :45:04.position where Wales and Britain are more fair? No. Has it got us to a
:45:05. > :45:08.position where those are the broadest shoulders carrying the
:45:09. > :45:12.greatest burden? No. The tax cut came for the richest. Now I have
:45:13. > :45:16.people coming to see me in my surgeries who are working. Because
:45:17. > :45:21.they've lost their tax credits, they are struggling. They are going to
:45:22. > :45:25.food banks. We used to say to people, the way out of poverty is to
:45:26. > :45:30.get a job. It doesn't exist any more. Too many people are working on
:45:31. > :45:34.wages that don't raise them out of poverty. It has to change.
:45:35. > :45:38.Prosecutions on the minimum wage, not enough of them. Better jobs
:45:39. > :45:42.closer to home is exactly what we stand for as a party. You say you
:45:43. > :45:49.back Mr Corbyn. He wants corporation tax to go to 26%. The IFF says his
:45:50. > :45:55.tax burden would be the largest in peace time. You back that, then?
:45:56. > :45:58.Those with the broadest shoulders should pay more. Those companies not
:45:59. > :46:00.paying their fair share of tax at the moment should do so, they should
:46:01. > :46:09.do so. Why should... APPLAUSE Why should everybody here this
:46:10. > :46:14.evening, everyone watching here this evening, pay their tax, when a big
:46:15. > :46:18.company gets away with it, I think it's completely wrong, we have to
:46:19. > :46:23.clamp down on that. If corporation tax were devolved would you put it
:46:24. > :46:26.up to 26%? I don't believe in devolving corporation tax, I think
:46:27. > :46:31.it creates a trade war within the UK. If it was? No, I wouldn't look
:46:32. > :46:34.at 26%, I would look at any change, I would want to see what the
:46:35. > :46:40.position was in Wales to see what was most appropriate for us in
:46:41. > :46:44.Wales. Corporation tax is 26% across the UK, they got broader shoulders
:46:45. > :46:47.than some of the companies in Wales. Jeremy Corbyn is sending out the
:46:48. > :46:51.wrong message to potential investors? In terms of the UK I
:46:52. > :46:55.don't see why businesses shouldn't be asked to contribute more. Let's
:46:56. > :46:58.face it if you are an American business... You would find yourself
:46:59. > :47:02.in a position where you have to provide health cover for your
:47:03. > :47:07.employees. It's paid for in the UK, it's a subsidy to business in that
:47:08. > :47:10.case. Education provides people businesses need. It is a virtuous
:47:11. > :47:15.circle between businesses and public services.
:47:16. > :47:20.With health being provided free for businesses in effect, is it so wrong
:47:21. > :47:24.to ask businesses to pay a bit more in order to provide the right level
:47:25. > :47:28.of public services that provide a healthy, educated people those
:47:29. > :47:32.businesses want. If I can take you back, First Minister do you
:47:33. > :47:36.mentioned about having jobs local to home, good jobs, well-paid jobs,
:47:37. > :47:43.etc, etc. Here in Blaenau Gwent we are waiting on the outcome of 6000
:47:44. > :47:50.jobs, while we still waiting all this
:47:51. > :47:55.APPLAUSE -- why are we still waiting all this
:47:56. > :48:00.time? I want to send Wales to work, end of. Last year the model that was
:48:01. > :48:03.there was not going to work. All the risk was there for the taxpayer.
:48:04. > :48:07.Nantes to private investors. The model is better. We want to make
:48:08. > :48:10.sure there is a fair spread of risk between the taxpayers of Wales and
:48:11. > :48:14.private investors and that's where we want to get to stop with the
:48:15. > :48:17.project I would like to see succeed but we've got to make sure that the
:48:18. > :48:21.structure is there. The last thing we want is for it to open and close
:48:22. > :48:24.within a few years and the Welsh taxpayer picks up the debt. It's
:48:25. > :48:28.hugely important that we've got the right spread of risk in order to
:48:29. > :48:35.make sure the project moves forward. OK, thank you very much. Our next
:48:36. > :48:39.question. It comes from Anita banks. Thank you, First Minister, Blaenau
:48:40. > :48:45.Gwent has had a lot of funding but I don't think it's been used well. How
:48:46. > :48:52.come we ensure funding is managed better post-Brexit? The funding
:48:53. > :48:57.won't be there, post-Brexit, at the moment. We know for example if we
:48:58. > :49:00.look at the situation at the moment, Wales gets ?650 million a year from
:49:01. > :49:04.the EU at the moment. After 2020, there is no guarantee any of it will
:49:05. > :49:08.come. So we look around as here, we have this building, we have the
:49:09. > :49:11.hospital, we have the school, we have the railway station. None of
:49:12. > :49:15.these things would have been funded in the way they were without that
:49:16. > :49:18.money. So what we need is the UK Government to say, OK, the promise
:49:19. > :49:22.was made that Wales wouldn't lose out on a penny of funding, we are
:49:23. > :49:27.going to keep that promise. Do that and the funding is there. Will they
:49:28. > :49:31.consult with us as to how that funding would be used? Because
:49:32. > :49:35.whilst understanding the EU funding was specific projects, etc,
:49:36. > :49:41.regeneration, I'll give you an example, regeneration, we've got
:49:42. > :49:46.beautiful stainless steel posts on foundry bridge. They've got
:49:47. > :49:50.wonderful coloured light switch -- coloured lights, which alternate.
:49:51. > :49:55.What has that done? What it has it achieved for the residents or even
:49:56. > :50:01.the whole of Blaenau Gwent? APPLAUSE
:50:02. > :50:05.You are absolutely right. At the moment Valleys task force has been
:50:06. > :50:09.set up. You said you are aware of it. Going around saying to people,
:50:10. > :50:13.what has worked, what hasn't worked? In doing that we can shape the
:50:14. > :50:17.future. European funds come with a certain set of rules that govern the
:50:18. > :50:20.way they can be used. The opportunities posed 2020 if the
:50:21. > :50:25.money is there for us to be more flexible. The money came here, it
:50:26. > :50:31.was funded by it, the road we came on today, the Dragon in Ebbw Vale,
:50:32. > :50:36.all funded with EU funding and yet this area wanted to leave, by 62%.
:50:37. > :50:39.It's not working, this funding, and yet you said the status quo in terms
:50:40. > :50:42.of the funding must be kept. The funding is working but it's quite
:50:43. > :50:48.clear that people don't believe it is. That's fair enough. I'll give
:50:49. > :50:53.you an example. Can I explain to you, sir, the fact that you may say
:50:54. > :51:01.now what I'm going to the next is down to our local authority but
:51:02. > :51:06.we've had so much EU funding within Blaenau Gwent. What have I got the
:51:07. > :51:10.resident that is tangible? I'm a retired person, so I don't need a
:51:11. > :51:18.school. I don't need a college. But at the same time I can't see
:51:19. > :51:23.anything that is there to benefit the residents in Blaenau Gwent. All
:51:24. > :51:29.I see is icy vegetation two and a half foot up lamp post, weeds,
:51:30. > :51:33.fly-tipping, and nothing is done about that. We are forgotten,
:51:34. > :51:38.totally forgotten. We are forgotten, towns ruined stock what are you
:51:39. > :51:47.going to do about it? APPLAUSE
:51:48. > :51:53.If we look for example at City Deal, there are opportunities there, money
:51:54. > :51:55.will be used properly. I've been to Blaenau Gwent many times and people
:51:56. > :52:01.feel some parts have done better than others. I know that people feel
:52:02. > :52:05.that they are distant from where the money is being spent. It's not all
:52:06. > :52:08.on buildings. The money goes to apprenticeships. One of the things
:52:09. > :52:12.we find is when we look at getting investment in, particularly from
:52:13. > :52:16.abroad, the first question they ask is have you got people with the
:52:17. > :52:20.skills we need for us to succeed in Wales, and increasingly, the answer
:52:21. > :52:25.is yes. Funding has to go on in the future. The general question, why do
:52:26. > :52:33.people round here about out, I was here the day before and people were
:52:34. > :52:36.annoyed -- people voted out. People said, I want to kick David Cameron,
:52:37. > :52:39.people said to me what I said earlier on, they were fed up of
:52:40. > :52:44.being a position where their jobs were badly paid and insecure. It was
:52:45. > :52:47.someone's full, this was their opportunity to register a process.
:52:48. > :52:54.We have to listen to do that as politicians, we can't ignore it.
:52:55. > :52:59.It's why TVR are coming here with 150 jobs, better jobs close at home,
:53:00. > :53:02.and the money people need in their pockets. Carwyn Jones, we are into
:53:03. > :53:07.the last minute of the programme. Very briefly, will the structural
:53:08. > :53:11.funds therefore, what's in place, change, if you had control of it? We
:53:12. > :53:16.don't know posed 2020 what will be there, that's the problem. There was
:53:17. > :53:18.a promise made we wouldn't lose a penny and from 2020, there is no
:53:19. > :53:24.promise that there will be any funding. How would I deal with it?
:53:25. > :53:27.I'd say, OK, what we'll do is take the funding, promise it after 2020,
:53:28. > :53:32.which they haven't done, promise it after 2020 on the same level as it
:53:33. > :53:35.is now. Farmers, two double ?60 million a year, they get the same
:53:36. > :53:39.amount of money, problem solved, but there needs to be a commitment from
:53:40. > :53:43.Whitehall. Remember this, we've gone through a list of things that have
:53:44. > :53:55.happened in Blaenau Gwent and Ebbw Vale, what did the
:53:56. > :53:58.Tories give you? Garden Festival and it disappeared. They closed the
:53:59. > :54:01.Marine colliery, closed six bells in 1990, closed the steelworks. Thank
:54:02. > :54:08.you. It's about hope, we want to give hope in the future. Thank you,
:54:09. > :54:13.our final interview is with Mark Williams, the leader of the Welsh
:54:14. > :54:18.Liberal Democrats, at 9:30pm on BBC One Wales tonight. Don't go too far.
:54:19. > :54:21.Nos da, good night. APPLAUSE