0:00:02 > 0:00:14based on evidence.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17Can the Secretary of State tell us what evidence she does have
0:00:17 > 0:00:19that the reintroduction of selection would work?
0:00:19 > 0:00:22All the evidence I can find shows that it does not.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Areas that have selection have a wider attainment gap
0:00:26 > 0:00:27than those that do not.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30Disadvantaged children do not get into grammar schools and poorer
0:00:30 > 0:00:32kids do worse in those areas with selection.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35The highest performing with the gap has been closing dramatically,
0:00:35 > 0:00:37particularly under the weather Government or comprehensibility.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Perhaps the Secretary of State would be better focusing on how
0:00:40 > 0:00:51we can spread the good practice of somewhere like London compared
0:00:51 > 0:00:53to importing the poorer practice of somewhere like Kent?
0:00:53 > 0:00:57It is not clear to me, and I think it would be helpful
0:00:57 > 0:01:00for the Labour front bench to set out exactly where they stand
0:01:00 > 0:01:04on the issue of removing any existing grammars,
0:01:04 > 0:01:09which as I understand it, is the Liberal Party proposal,
0:01:09 > 0:01:12and perhaps from our comments, we can assume she wasn't
0:01:12 > 0:01:13all existing selection as well.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16-- Labour Party.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21If she is not prepared to make the argument, I think it is hard
0:01:21 > 0:01:23to argue against the status quo, whilst then also arguing
0:01:23 > 0:01:30that we are wrong to look at reforming it.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Which I think is the position that she is taking.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36The reality is that there are many grammar schools that are doing
0:01:36 > 0:01:38important work, for example Bournemouth Grammar prioritising
0:01:38 > 0:01:42children on pupil premium getting into grammar schools.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46We know that when children on free school meals get into grammar is,
0:01:46 > 0:01:49they disproportionately do well.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53There is evidence from the Sutton trust that shows that children
0:01:53 > 0:01:55outside of the grammar system, there was no discernible lessening
0:01:55 > 0:01:58of their attainment more easily.
0:01:58 > 0:02:04And we're not in a binary system now, we are in a system
0:02:04 > 0:02:07were overwhelmingly our schools have improved over the last six years.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10There are no many more all kinds that are good or outstanding.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14So this sense that somehow if children are not in a grammar
0:02:14 > 0:02:16that they are consigned to an education system
0:02:16 > 0:02:18that is failing them is simply wrong.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21But we do have to accept that there are still some schools
0:02:21 > 0:02:24where children do not have access to a good school place.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27The proposals and the debate we are starting today is one aimed
0:02:27 > 0:02:32at looking how we can tackle it.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36It sits alongside a much broader series of policy reforms,
0:02:36 > 0:02:40but we are going to make sure that we push on and change
0:02:40 > 0:02:43in circumstance, unlike the party opposite, which seems to not even
0:02:43 > 0:02:49want to have a debate on the first place.
0:02:53 > 0:02:54Thank you, Mr Speaker.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57Can I welcome what my right honourable friend has said today
0:02:57 > 0:02:59about greater collaboration between universities
0:02:59 > 0:03:07and independent schools and those in the state system.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09I also agree with what she said about faith schools,
0:03:09 > 0:03:11this does need to be looked at.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Over the past six years on the side, we have consistently
0:03:14 > 0:03:21challenged the soft bigotry of low expectations.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24It says that academic education is not available to all.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27She is right to save that we have great schools and great teachers,
0:03:27 > 0:03:44but we do not have them everywhere.
0:03:44 > 0:03:46Could she explain how the Green paper proposals on selective
0:03:46 > 0:03:49education will benefit those pupils in areas where expectations
0:03:49 > 0:03:52are still too low, where results are too poor, can't you tell us
0:03:52 > 0:03:55when she is going to announce the first of the achieving
0:03:55 > 0:03:56excellence in areas?
0:03:56 > 0:03:59She is right to point out that too often, the past,
0:03:59 > 0:04:02I don't think governments have had high enough expectations
0:04:02 > 0:04:04were children growing up in my disadvantaged parts
0:04:04 > 0:04:05of our country.
0:04:05 > 0:04:06I think that is totally unacceptable.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10There are talented children growing up all over our country and we must
0:04:10 > 0:04:14make sure we have an education system that can enable them to make
0:04:14 > 0:04:20the most of their talents.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24Also right to point out that if we want to see new grammars open,
0:04:24 > 0:04:28we have to walk to work with local communities but I would like to see
0:04:28 > 0:04:30more of those disadvantaged communities get the chance
0:04:30 > 0:04:31to have a grammar.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34At the moment that is not an opportunity for them,
0:04:34 > 0:04:40even if local parents want it.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44We know that 20% of children who are at grammar schools come
0:04:44 > 0:04:46from outside the immediate catchment area.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49That clearly suggests that parents in those broader areas also want
0:04:49 > 0:04:51the choice of a grammar for their children.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54Finally, on the points she stepped out in the White Paper,
0:04:54 > 0:04:57which I thought was quite right, the achieving excellence areas
0:04:57 > 0:04:59were about saying, actually, we need to look systematically
0:04:59 > 0:05:02at places where there is systematic letting down of children,
0:05:02 > 0:05:10where they do not have access to good school places,
0:05:10 > 0:05:13and look at what it will take inside and outside schools to make
0:05:13 > 0:05:15sure we change that over time.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18So I can assure her that all that work will continue
0:05:18 > 0:05:21and I would like to pay tribute to her for the White Paper
0:05:21 > 0:05:25that she set out that put in place the building bricks of what I hope
0:05:25 > 0:05:30will be a successful approach.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33It is simply not true to save that on the side
0:05:33 > 0:05:36of the House we are in favour of levelling down.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Schools that work for everyone and all families is exactly
0:05:39 > 0:05:41what members on this side are in favour of.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45I want to press the Secretary of State on this question of evidence.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48Where is the evidence that any of the improvement we have seen
0:05:48 > 0:05:52in the last 15 to 20 years has come as a result of selection?
0:05:52 > 0:05:55In particular, can she name he schools as elsewhere in the world
0:05:55 > 0:05:58that succeeds on the basis of selection at 11?
0:05:58 > 0:06:04Our proposals are clear, we do not want to see a test did --
0:06:04 > 0:06:08tested 11 be the main way that children get into grammar schools,
0:06:08 > 0:06:18we want more flexibility in the system.
0:06:18 > 0:06:22This is about having a 21st-century education system but also a 21st
0:06:22 > 0:06:23century approach to grammars.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27I think it is wrong to say we should freeze grammars in time and never
0:06:27 > 0:06:30come back and look at how they could work more effectively.
0:06:30 > 0:06:34The test is surely the fact that 99% of grammar schools are judged to be
0:06:34 > 0:06:35good or outstanding by Ofsted.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37These are schools that have outstanding leadership,
0:06:37 > 0:06:39outstanding teachers, a strong and rigorous curriculum,
0:06:39 > 0:06:41they deliver the children who are of lower attainment
0:06:41 > 0:06:44and disadvantage but also stretched those who are better attainment
0:06:44 > 0:06:47and that is why they are rated as good or outstanding.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51It would be wrong not to look at how we can all those features
0:06:51 > 0:06:55into the broader school system.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58But we should be enabling where there is choice and wear
0:06:58 > 0:07:01there is demand for more grammar schools to open up.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06Back in 1944, of course, there were three types
0:07:06 > 0:07:11of school proposed, grammar, secondary modern and technical.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14By 1959, only 2% of any Eurogroup could expect to get
0:07:14 > 0:07:15a technical school.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18The problem is sometimes in delivery and the mechanism
0:07:18 > 0:07:26for the fermentation.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30My question is, what plans has she got to make sure
0:07:30 > 0:07:32that the changes she's talking about in the green paper
0:07:32 > 0:07:36will actually be implemented in such a way that we do reach every
0:07:36 > 0:07:39community, that we do reach every and that we can be sure
0:07:39 > 0:07:42that we are giving every child the best possible opportunity
0:07:42 > 0:07:45in a grammar school, or another school of some different type?
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Because it is the mechanism and it is the brokering of that
0:07:48 > 0:07:51mechanism and the checking that the mechanism is working that
0:07:51 > 0:07:59will actually count for a lot in this whole policy.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02I pay tribute to all of his work as chair of the education
0:08:02 > 0:08:04Select Committee, this is about loading capacity
0:08:04 > 0:08:07fundamentally about having more good school places the children around
0:08:07 > 0:08:10Britain, and I think what you will see is a test
0:08:10 > 0:08:17of its success is the continued improvement in attainment,
0:08:17 > 0:08:20very much following on from what my right honourable friend the member
0:08:20 > 0:08:23for Surrey Heath has said, but particularly focusing on those
0:08:23 > 0:08:26children who do not get as far as they should and have not been
0:08:26 > 0:08:29able to enjoy and benefit from the broader reforms that
0:08:29 > 0:08:34so many more children now are.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38Can I tell the Secretary of State that this country has made steady
0:08:38 > 0:08:42progress in education over the years, under all parties.
0:08:42 > 0:08:51There has been real improvement in our education system.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54Is she aware that sending a message that it has been a history
0:08:54 > 0:08:57of failure is not very encouraging, that teachers and people
0:08:57 > 0:09:11who deliver education?
0:09:11 > 0:09:14But can I please beg her not to start what we have seen
0:09:14 > 0:09:17in the chamber already, a bitter war about comp
0:09:17 > 0:09:18offensive against grammar?
0:09:18 > 0:09:20Grammar schools, if you like them, provide the evidence,
0:09:20 > 0:09:23provide what is best for our students and kids in this
0:09:23 > 0:09:25country, do not start this ideological turf war
0:09:25 > 0:09:28that is going to be very damaging to our country.
0:09:28 > 0:09:29Well, I agree with him.
0:09:29 > 0:09:33I think we need to open up a measured debate that is based
0:09:33 > 0:09:37on evidence about what it is going to take it to improve our school
0:09:37 > 0:09:40system and particular for those children don't have access to a good
0:09:40 > 0:09:43school place, what it will take to enable them to have one.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47We believe selection can play a role in that and we should look at how
0:09:47 > 0:09:50that should be done more effectively, and he was at
0:09:50 > 0:09:52the urgent question we had on Thursday.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55I recognise how emotive this issue is across the House.
0:09:55 > 0:09:56That is because it matters.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59It matters for all of our children.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03But I think the wrong thing to do would be to simply to see the kind
0:10:03 > 0:10:07of concerns that the members opposite express, and simply put
0:10:07 > 0:10:12them in a box over here and not be prepared to look at how we can make
0:10:12 > 0:10:19grammars work more effectively for disadvantaged children.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21In doing so, we should also recognise that every
0:10:21 > 0:10:22child is different.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25For those who academic, they need schools which can help
0:10:25 > 0:10:25them stretch themselves.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27Theresa Villiers.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30My anxiety with some of these pose oils is the Secretary of State
0:10:30 > 0:10:34rightly focuses on areas of economic disadvantage but without any kind
0:10:34 > 0:10:36of local catchment area, how can we guarantee that
0:10:36 > 0:10:39new selections schools will benefit the communities in
0:10:39 > 0:10:45which they are situated?
0:10:45 > 0:10:49Well, we are setting out a number of conditions that new grammars
0:10:49 > 0:10:52would have to meet, frankly, for them to be able to open
0:10:52 > 0:10:53in the first place.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Part of that would be working with local communities
0:10:56 > 0:10:59and demonstrating local demand.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02It could also involve setting up a nonselective school or sponsoring
0:11:02 > 0:11:05one that is there.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08It could also involve sponsoring a primary school that feeds
0:11:08 > 0:11:12the grammar school that is in a more low income area, so that it
0:11:12 > 0:11:14absolutely reaches into some of those communities
0:11:14 > 0:11:17that we want to see benefit most from good or outstanding grammars
0:11:17 > 0:11:22that are being established.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25I would encourage her to look at the consultation document.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28It opens a lot of questions about how we can do this effectively
0:11:28 > 0:11:33and then I have no doubt I would be interested in her response.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39I listened to the Secretary of State carefully.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43I'm quite sorry for her in a way because I am sure this is not
0:11:43 > 0:11:44directly her policy.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Could she tell us confidentially whether she was as surprised
0:11:47 > 0:11:51as we were when informed of this policy and to do with government
0:11:51 > 0:12:03spats in Downing Street?
0:12:03 > 0:12:07I think on behalf of the children of Britain I think that was a totally
0:12:07 > 0:12:14pointless question and I will not bother answering it.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18Look, I don't want any child to go to the sort of school I went
0:12:18 > 0:12:21to in the last five years of my secondary education.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24The Hartland comprehensive was more like a Borstal than a school,
0:12:24 > 0:12:26and unfortunately, there are still too many comprehensives
0:12:26 > 0:12:30like that in our country.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34But, and it is a big but, the schools in my constituency have
0:12:34 > 0:12:37done so well, notably George Spencer becoming an outstanding academy,
0:12:37 > 0:12:42because of the Academy programme.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46I think in my constituency, there is no desire for us
0:12:46 > 0:12:48to have selection.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52So can the Secretary of State assure me and my constituents,
0:12:52 > 0:12:54that the Academy programme which is delivering,
0:12:54 > 0:13:04will still be supported by this government?
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Yes, of course, and indeed this is about providing...
0:13:07 > 0:13:09In many parts of the country we have seen academies
0:13:09 > 0:13:10transform prospects already.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13It may be that local communities are happy with the existing schools
0:13:13 > 0:13:17and they want to see them get better.
0:13:20 > 0:13:25Discussing education with parents and teachers,
0:13:25 > 0:13:28issues which come up time and time again is the need for more primary
0:13:28 > 0:13:30places, teacher recruitment and the North-South funding gap.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34Not one person has ever raised new grammars with me.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38Where is the evidence that this continuing obsession with structures
0:13:38 > 0:13:48will resolve the real issues facing education?
0:13:48 > 0:13:52She is right to highlight the need for more primary places and indeed,
0:13:52 > 0:13:54we have put billions into ensuring those places other.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Part of the challenge is insuring that democratic board is passing
0:13:57 > 0:13:58into secondary schools.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01We have to ensure the secondary system has a number
0:14:01 > 0:14:04of places our children need, but we have to ensure
0:14:04 > 0:14:07they are good places which is why we want to open up this
0:14:07 > 0:14:10debate on selection, open up the debate on ending
0:14:10 > 0:14:13the ban on grammars.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17This is not to say there is not the rest of the agenda in education
0:14:17 > 0:14:20that we need to carefully push on with.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24She talks about teacher recruitment, she talks about making sure
0:14:24 > 0:14:27education funding is fair around the country and absolutely,
0:14:27 > 0:14:33all of those things will be once I continue to focus on.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37May I welcome my right honourable friend's commitment to greater
0:14:37 > 0:14:42freedom for faith schools.
0:14:42 > 0:14:47In my constituency we have the best performing competences in the entire
0:14:47 > 0:14:50country and it forms part of a diverse mix which includes
0:14:50 > 0:14:55part selective schools.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Does she agree with me that it is that diversity
0:14:58 > 0:15:00which is driving up standards and issue committed
0:15:00 > 0:15:05to maintaining that diversity?
0:15:05 > 0:15:10He sets out the case very well in terms of how parents have got
0:15:10 > 0:15:12more and better choice in his own local community.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15It is important and it is how we seek standards rising
0:15:15 > 0:15:21and we are committed to that continuing.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I also listened very carefully to the words of the Secretary
0:15:24 > 0:15:28of State and she did say we don't want to see a test at 11
0:15:28 > 0:15:29for access to grammars.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33So is it her intention to abolish the 11 plus for existing grammar
0:15:33 > 0:15:37schools, and if not, why not?
0:15:37 > 0:15:42The point I was making to him was that many people feel
0:15:42 > 0:15:45there is a cliff edge in terms of the entry into grammar schools
0:15:45 > 0:15:48as it stands in terms of age 11.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50We are consulting on having the chance for children to go
0:15:50 > 0:15:53into a local grammar, perhaps at an older age,
0:15:53 > 0:15:56or indeed if they are particularly capable at one or two subjects
0:15:56 > 0:15:59that they could perhaps go to a grammar to study those.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01I'm sure he will read the consultation
0:16:01 > 0:16:06document with interest.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09Does the Secretary of State agree with me that when lifting
0:16:09 > 0:16:13the statutory bar, we are not returning to a two tier system
0:16:13 > 0:16:16of the 1950s, in circumstances where our education system has moved
0:16:16 > 0:16:22on, where we have choice of UTC, free schools, academies
0:16:22 > 0:16:24as well as apprenticeships, and when striving for educational
0:16:24 > 0:16:27excellence, we should continue to look at all forms of education
0:16:27 > 0:16:33for our children?
0:16:33 > 0:16:37She is quite right.
0:16:37 > 0:16:41We have moved from a system where there was a one size fits
0:16:41 > 0:16:44all approach on schools for children and we now have a system
0:16:44 > 0:16:46where there is so much diversity and choice,
0:16:46 > 0:16:50but we do think it is wrong to have one kind of school in that system,
0:16:50 > 0:16:53unable to respond to parent demand, and that is the need
0:16:53 > 0:16:54for more grammars.
0:16:54 > 0:16:59We need to open up that debate and look at what we can do to enable
0:16:59 > 0:17:03parents to have more of a choice around the country.
0:17:03 > 0:17:06The minister says she wants to get views from everywhere.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09The Education Minister will be aware that exam results schools
0:17:09 > 0:17:13in Northern Ireland were some of the best in Britain and Northern
0:17:13 > 0:17:14Ireland.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16Has the Education Minister had the opportunity to strategise these
0:17:16 > 0:17:22results for the benefit of the UK mainland?
0:17:22 > 0:17:25I know the system of grammars in Northern Ireland is one that
0:17:25 > 0:17:31people would point to to say an average attainment has increased.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34I was invited to Northern Ireland in the urgent question last week
0:17:34 > 0:17:38to look for myself and I am sure that I will be able to visit
0:17:38 > 0:17:39Northern Ireland shortly.
0:17:39 > 0:17:44I welcome the Secretary of State's Green paper on the wider
0:17:44 > 0:17:48aspects of education, I have to say that I have severe
0:17:48 > 0:17:53reservations about introducing more grammar schools.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57I was at a grammar school 50 years ago, and I have often wondered,
0:17:57 > 0:18:01if I had failed the 11 plus, where I would be.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05I wouldn't be here today.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07I know the educational system has moved on,
0:18:07 > 0:18:11but I have to say I think it is not a question of introducing more
0:18:11 > 0:18:13grammar schools, if people want grammar schools,
0:18:13 > 0:18:14that is fine.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17It is what is happening in the main part of the system.
0:18:17 > 0:18:22The main question we have to deal with this not just about access
0:18:22 > 0:18:25to schools, it is about the poverty of many of the parents,
0:18:25 > 0:18:27the dysfunctional families, and I'm sure that my right
0:18:27 > 0:18:31honourable friend will be looking at this and if she could perhaps
0:18:31 > 0:18:41give me some reassurance that this is going to be done.
0:18:41 > 0:18:41Very much so.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44As I just replied to my right honourable friend for Loughborough,
0:18:44 > 0:18:49this issue of looking at specific areas where there is a persistent
0:18:49 > 0:18:52and long-term lack of educational attainment and a gap
0:18:52 > 0:18:55in good school places, absolutely has to sit alongside this
0:18:55 > 0:18:57consultation document, and the rest of the Government
0:18:57 > 0:19:00reforms that we now have under way, that have delivered so much
0:19:00 > 0:19:04for the children of Britain have to continue.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08The Secretary of State's statement is deeply divisive.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10Will she say to the House what the differences
0:19:10 > 0:19:12between the selection criteria for a grammar school
0:19:12 > 0:19:16and the selection criteria for a free school, and will she say
0:19:16 > 0:19:19to the House what the evidence base is available to her for not
0:19:19 > 0:19:22prioritising the needs of the young people who are not
0:19:22 > 0:19:33going to be selected?
0:19:33 > 0:19:36I would encourage him to look at the Green paper consultation
0:19:36 > 0:19:39document that we have published today.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42It very much not only talks about how we think grammars can play
0:19:42 > 0:19:43a strong
0:19:43 > 0:19:45role and selection play a strong role particularly improving
0:19:45 > 0:19:47the specs for disadvantaged children who are academically able,
0:19:47 > 0:19:51but it also sets out our expectation that grammars can do a lot more
0:19:51 > 0:19:54in their local communities to raise attainment more broadly,
0:19:54 > 0:19:59and as I said to the honourable lady opposite, the challenge is that this
0:19:59 > 0:20:03is not a reform that has been engaged with grammars before,
0:20:03 > 0:20:08and it is time that we asked them to do more, but in return we should
0:20:08 > 0:20:11also be prepared to enable them to open up in other parts
0:20:11 > 0:20:13of the country.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18Mr Speaker, I have no ideological hang-ups in letting the brightest
0:20:18 > 0:20:22children do well, I think it is crucial that we allow
0:20:22 > 0:20:26the poorest to come through to do so.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29I welcome this as the beginning of a debate and as one method
0:20:29 > 0:20:34whereby we can increase the diversity of the school system.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37Can I discuss the role that universities play.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41We see the results that Norwich players and teachers
0:20:41 > 0:20:48are dressing issues hard.
0:20:48 > 0:20:54Norwich is an area where we can see attainment is raised particularly
0:20:54 > 0:20:57with the work of the University of East Anglia is doing
0:20:57 > 0:21:00in the local community.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03I think we are at the beginning of the understanding of how
0:21:03 > 0:21:05universities can work effectively further back
0:21:05 > 0:21:12in the education system.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14We see it can dramatically improve the prospects for children
0:21:14 > 0:21:18so that they get the levels of education and attainment say that
0:21:18 > 0:21:26going to university becomes an option.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28The Government was serious about social mobility,
0:21:28 > 0:21:31it would be focusing on the early years and technical
0:21:31 > 0:21:32and vocational provision.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35One thing I do welcome as the Secretary of State's
0:21:35 > 0:21:37acceptance of the Labour Party's 2015 manifesto commitment
0:21:37 > 0:21:40to independent schools and they should be doing more
0:21:40 > 0:21:46to earn a charitable status.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49But rather than going down the blind alley of the charitable commission,
0:21:49 > 0:21:53can I urge the Secretary of State to amend the 1988 local government
0:21:53 > 0:21:56act so that private schools business rate relief is dependent on a hard
0:21:56 > 0:21:58partnership as determined by the independent
0:21:58 > 0:22:04schools Inspectorate.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07It remains a scandal that our sixth form colleges are paying VAT
0:22:07 > 0:22:09and private schools have business rate relief.
0:22:09 > 0:22:15This has two end.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17As I understood his policy was to simply scrap
0:22:17 > 0:22:21charitable status.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24What we have to do is make sure our independent schools earn
0:22:24 > 0:22:27that charitable status and truly deliver more public benefit perhaps
0:22:27 > 0:22:30than some are doing at the moment.
0:22:30 > 0:22:37Although it is fair to say that overwhelmingly many independent
0:22:37 > 0:22:40schools already do much in their local community.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43As the competence of schoolboy, can I commend my right honourable
0:22:43 > 0:22:49friend for this bold new departure.
0:22:49 > 0:23:00Will she, however, at all times are sure that the language used
0:23:00 > 0:23:08by the Government focuses on pupils' aptitudes rather than solely
0:23:08 > 0:23:15on their academic ability.
0:23:15 > 0:23:21I believe that way there are no losers instead all talents are
0:23:21 > 0:23:33champions and all roles fulfilled.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36The attainment gap between poor and rich children is unacceptable.
0:23:36 > 0:23:37It holds them and our country back.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41But the Secretary of State is simply wrong to say expanding grammar
0:23:41 > 0:23:43schools will help the most disadvantaged children,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46who are less likely to get into grammar schools and fall
0:23:46 > 0:23:48further behind better off children than those in areas
0:23:48 > 0:23:49without selective schools.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52Can I ask the Minister to instead focus on what we know
0:23:52 > 0:23:55from the evidence makes the biggest difference to disadvantaged
0:23:55 > 0:23:57children, high-quality early years services, getting the best heads
0:23:57 > 0:24:00and teachers in the school 's and relentlessly driving up
0:24:00 > 0:24:05standards in academic and vocational qualifications.
0:24:08 > 0:24:09Two points.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12We are doing all of those things and the reality
0:24:12 > 0:24:15is that our proposals are aimed at ensuring the grammar schools do
0:24:15 > 0:24:19take more disadvantaged children, and all I would say is Labour had 13
0:24:19 > 0:24:27years to look at this and failed to do so.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30The Secretary of State will be aware that the community I represent
0:24:30 > 0:24:33in Bournemouth and Poole already has access to high-quality
0:24:33 > 0:24:37local grammar schools.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40But can I make her aware of the change in the admission
0:24:40 > 0:24:43policy from 2018 for a Bournemouth School headed
0:24:43 > 0:24:48by Doctor Dorian Lewis that we are going to put
0:24:48 > 0:24:53a geographical limit prioritising Bournemouth pupils, we're
0:24:53 > 0:24:55going to prioritise looked after and formerly looked
0:24:55 > 0:24:59after children, prioritise those on free school meals and combine
0:24:59 > 0:25:04this, and this is critical, with an ambitious programme
0:25:04 > 0:25:08of outreach to the primary schools to raise the aspiration of both
0:25:08 > 0:25:10primary school pupils and their parents about sending
0:25:10 > 0:25:13their children to these schools.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16Would she agree with me that this is an ambitious thing
0:25:16 > 0:25:19that is totally in line with the prime minister's excellent
0:25:19 > 0:25:22new policy, and would she agree to either come to Bournemouth School
0:25:22 > 0:25:25to see at first hand what they are doing,
0:25:25 > 0:25:28or to meet Doctor Dorian Lewis the headteacher, we bring him
0:25:28 > 0:25:31here to London?
0:25:31 > 0:25:34I'm very happy to meet his local head teacher.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37What he sets out in terms of what that head teacher is doing,
0:25:37 > 0:25:40is exactly what we want to see replicated across schools
0:25:40 > 0:25:44in the country, and also in terms of conditions we'll set for existing
0:25:44 > 0:25:46grammars to extend and to open up new grammars.
0:25:46 > 0:25:54We want them to be engines for social mobility.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00I hope we do have a debate because it's important because none
0:26:00 > 0:26:03of us should be satisfied that our children aren't getting
0:26:03 > 0:26:06the best out of, what is it these days, 18 years before too long
0:26:06 > 0:26:09of compulsory education.
0:26:09 > 0:26:14When I spoke in a debate led by my former colleague Joe Cox,
0:26:14 > 0:26:16we spoke about the lack of educational attainment
0:26:16 > 0:26:23in Yorkshire and Humberside.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25Three things came out of that.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28So many are behind their peers by the age of three,
0:26:28 > 0:26:30Doncaster and other places, we can't attract the best
0:26:30 > 0:26:32teachers for love nor money.
0:26:32 > 0:26:36And, the choice at 14 isn't good enough for those who want to follow
0:26:36 > 0:26:37a vocational route.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40Can I ask the Secretary of State please do not abandon those areas
0:26:40 > 0:26:43that I feel are the greater importance to achieving the outcome
0:26:43 > 0:26:45she wants than the debate that could be divisive
0:26:45 > 0:26:48on grammar schools?
0:26:49 > 0:26:53I can absolutely assure her that I won't ever abandon that agenda
0:26:53 > 0:26:56of looking at some of our more struggling areas in terms
0:26:56 > 0:26:59of educational attainment and seeing what we can do to lift them.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01I grew up in Rotherham, went through the state
0:27:01 > 0:27:04school system there.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07I'm personally committed to making sure that that area does better
0:27:07 > 0:27:14in the future than it's done in the past and for me,
0:27:14 > 0:27:18to be able to have a role now where I can actually help build
0:27:18 > 0:27:21the education system that enabled me to be successful,
0:27:21 > 0:27:23I think that's a chance and opportunity that I'll make
0:27:23 > 0:27:26the most of.
0:27:26 > 0:27:27Thank you, Mr Speaker.
0:27:27 > 0:27:30If the minister is indeed going to search for evidence.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33Will she try and find out why the OECD have said educational
0:27:33 > 0:27:37outcomes in England are far higher than in Wales where we had 17 years
0:27:37 > 0:27:43of Labour Government?
0:27:43 > 0:27:45I think it's almost certainly because the Labour Government
0:27:45 > 0:27:49in Wales has failed to learn from the reforms that we've made
0:27:49 > 0:27:51here in the United Kingdom and it's interesting,
0:27:51 > 0:27:55we are having a debate about grammar schools.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58The reality is that many parents want the features of grammar schools
0:27:58 > 0:28:01that often make them successful, which is excellent teachers
0:28:01 > 0:28:03and outstanding leadership, a stretching, rigorous academic
0:28:03 > 0:28:04curriculum and excellent extracurricular activities as well.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07Those are the things that parents want across the school system.
0:28:07 > 0:28:15Discipline too.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18Our reforms have largely embedded them across the school system.
0:28:18 > 0:28:25That's why we are seeing standards going up.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30I am proud to represent a town which is ram packed
0:28:30 > 0:28:33with what she calls ordinary working class people.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36We are also a town - I'm using the Secretary of State's
0:28:36 > 0:28:42words - it's also a town which has grammar schools.
0:28:42 > 0:28:43I just called them people.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47Those people are very frustrated that their kids can't get into local
0:28:47 > 0:28:49grammar schools because people with much more resources are able
0:28:49 > 0:28:52to drive miles from West London and get into grammar schools
0:28:52 > 0:28:59on the basis of the 11-plus.
0:28:59 > 0:29:03Now, I'm beginning to not be sure what she means by a grammar school
0:29:03 > 0:29:06because when I talk to the heads in the grammar schools,
0:29:06 > 0:29:08they say they cannot make a test for admission
0:29:08 > 0:29:11which is a tutor proof.
0:29:11 > 0:29:13The point is, my constituents, those who can't afford tutors,
0:29:13 > 0:29:22are not getting places in the grammar schools.
0:29:22 > 0:29:25Therefore, grammar schools do not serve, as her statement implies,
0:29:25 > 0:29:28those ordinary, in her words "ordinary" working class people.
0:29:28 > 0:29:34Unfortunately it serves those people who can afford to tutor their kids.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37I think in that case it's all the more reason for us to be
0:29:37 > 0:29:40bringing forward the reforms that we are doing today.
0:29:40 > 0:29:44I find it nonsensical to make an argument in the way she's just
0:29:44 > 0:29:50done then say we should do nothing about it.
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