:00:22. > :00:28.Urgent question, Rebecca Long Bailey.
:00:29. > :00:36.I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make
:00:37. > :00:39.a statement on the abilities and activities in relation to tax
:00:40. > :00:44.credit investigations made on behalf of HMRC into Concentrix.
:00:45. > :00:48.The government recognises the importance of tax credits
:00:49. > :00:54.We all recognise that it is important that this support reaches
:00:55. > :01:09.That is why HMRC work hard to check that they are making the correct
:01:10. > :01:11.payments and to tackle any fraudulent claims.
:01:12. > :01:17.We must acknowledge that fraud exists in the system and should
:01:18. > :01:20.be investigated to ensure that taxpayers' money is spent directly.
:01:21. > :01:23.As part of this, Concentrix Ltd was engaged to help
:01:24. > :01:26.As a result, ?300 million worth of incorrect payments
:01:27. > :01:32.I do want to reassure the House on two key points.
:01:33. > :01:34.Firstly, Concentrix were only paid for making the right decisions.
:01:35. > :01:37.They would not receive payment for taking someone's
:01:38. > :01:40.And secondly, that Concentrix were not allowed to engage
:01:41. > :01:44.in fishing expeditions or pick on vulnerable claimants at random.
:01:45. > :01:49.But where there was evidence to suggest a claim might not be
:01:50. > :01:58.correct, Concentrix wrote to claimants
:01:59. > :02:00.to see information to confirm their eligibility.
:02:01. > :02:03.I realise, and I know this as a constituency member myself,
:02:04. > :02:06.that it can be stressful for someone to receive such a letter,
:02:07. > :02:09.but it is right that we investigate the full picture with claimants
:02:10. > :02:11.themselves to make the right payments.
:02:12. > :02:15.That is why both Concentrix and HMRC, where it does the same
:02:16. > :02:18.work, always sends a letter giving claimants 30 days to provide
:02:19. > :02:20.information before taking any further action and it is important
:02:21. > :02:23.that people do indeed respond and get in touch
:02:24. > :02:26.if they are struggling to respond to any other questions.
:02:27. > :02:28.Despite the best efforts of the staff manning the phones,
:02:29. > :02:32.with a high volume of calls in recent weeks, Concentrix have not
:02:33. > :02:35.been providing the high levels of customer service that the public
:02:36. > :02:38.expect, and which are required in their contract.
:02:39. > :02:41.HMRC has given notice that this contract will not be renewed
:02:42. > :02:47.HMRC is also no longer passing new cases to Concentrix but working
:02:48. > :02:51.with them, as a matter of urgency, to improve the service they provide
:02:52. > :02:54.to claimants and to resolve outstanding cases.
:02:55. > :02:57.I can confirm to the House that 150 HMRC staff have been redeployed
:02:58. > :03:03.with immediate effect to help them resolve any issues people
:03:04. > :03:08.are having with their claims, as quickly as possible,
:03:09. > :03:11.and Mr Speaker, I realise that colleagues on all sides of the House
:03:12. > :03:14.are concerned to get difficult cases resolved and assist vulnerable
:03:15. > :03:30.In addition to the additional resources I have already referred
:03:31. > :03:34.to, I have arranged a members' drop in in at 1 Parliament Street
:03:35. > :03:36.between 9:30am and 11am tomorrow at which we can
:03:37. > :03:38.offer guidance to colleagues, should that be helpful.
:03:39. > :03:43.Many members across the House have been contacted by distressed
:03:44. > :03:45.and anxious constituents, often hard-working individuals
:03:46. > :03:47.who have had their tax credits cut unfairly,
:03:48. > :03:50.pushing them, in many cases, into extreme hardship.
:03:51. > :03:54.Whilst we on this side certainly welcome that HMRC is finally taking
:03:55. > :03:59.action in announcing that the Concentrix contract
:04:00. > :04:01.will not be renewed, it's most regrettable
:04:02. > :04:09.that the government has only done this when events have been
:04:10. > :04:12.dramatically exposed by the media, and indeed My Honourable Friends,
:04:13. > :04:17.the member for Sheffield Healy and Birkenhead.
:04:18. > :04:20.Whilst Concentrix will be carrying out the services for another
:04:21. > :04:24.eight months, there's a risk that without radical amendment
:04:25. > :04:26.to the contract itself, service failures will continue.
:04:27. > :04:30.Most concerning is that the payment model creates a conflict of interest
:04:31. > :04:33.as noted by the Social Security Advisory Committee.
:04:34. > :04:35.Can the Minister confirm what arrangement she will make
:04:36. > :04:37.to urgently revise the contract to preserve justice
:04:38. > :04:43.Furthermore, as she stated, I understand HMRC will redeploy 150
:04:44. > :04:46.staff so that claimants can get through to advisers
:04:47. > :04:55.Can the Minister confirm how the government will monitor
:04:56. > :04:57.this going forward, and will the government commit
:04:58. > :05:00.to an official investigation into Concentrix's conduct
:05:01. > :05:08.since being awarded a contract in 2014, so that we can determine
:05:09. > :05:10.how this situation was allowed to arise?
:05:11. > :05:15.And one final point, Mr Speaker.
:05:16. > :05:17.Has the minister given any consideration to the real prospect
:05:18. > :05:26.of bringing this service back in-house?
:05:27. > :05:29.Mr Speaker, it is worth making the comment I think,
:05:30. > :05:32.that this is a very complicated system
:05:33. > :05:34.that this government, the previous government,
:05:35. > :05:37.indeed inherited, and it is the case that long-term, the right answer
:05:38. > :05:40.is to replace tax credits, as is our intention,
:05:41. > :05:46.because it is an unnecessarily complex system that
:05:47. > :05:52.But we must make it work whilst it is in operation and that is now
:05:53. > :05:56.With regard to the contract and the decision that HMRC have
:05:57. > :05:58.taken, I want to reassure the House that
:05:59. > :06:01.monitoring has been taking place on a regular basis throughout
:06:02. > :06:08.the contract, and HMRC have worked closely with Concentrix,
:06:09. > :06:12.but it is the case that as is documented in recent weeks
:06:13. > :06:15.that performance has not been right, and clearly, that has been something
:06:16. > :06:18.that we have noted and which we are now taking action on.
:06:19. > :06:21.With regard to the contract going forward, as I think
:06:22. > :06:30.I mentioned in my statement, Concentrix will be focusing
:06:31. > :06:34.on resolving outstanding claims, not opening new ones.
:06:35. > :06:38.In other words, the ones that they are already open,
:06:39. > :06:41.we'll be looking to deal with in an orderly and appropriate
:06:42. > :06:43.manner, and HMRC is putting in additional resources,
:06:44. > :06:46.focusing on those difficult cases where we have heard some
:06:47. > :06:49.high-profile examples in recent days, and to make sure that we get
:06:50. > :06:53.those resolved in the quickest possible time, to ensure that
:06:54. > :06:56.vulnerable constituents of all of ours are helped and supported.
:06:57. > :07:02.I don't think there is any need to go into inquiries etc.
:07:03. > :07:11.It is monitored on a regular basis, it is not going to be renewed
:07:12. > :07:14.when it ends in May next year, and the focus, I think,
:07:15. > :07:18.for all of us, and for me and for HMRC in the coming days
:07:19. > :07:21.and weeks, is in making sure that we get the outstanding
:07:22. > :07:23.cases and resolve them, particularly those involving
:07:24. > :07:26.the most vulnerable, and we make sure that people
:07:27. > :07:45.have the money to which they are correctly entitled.
:07:46. > :07:56.Cases women who have had their benefits withdrawn because the of
:07:57. > :08:15.men they are living with. What we need to know is how quickly these
:08:16. > :08:20.cases can be reviewed. I understand the point my right honourable friend
:08:21. > :08:27.makes. The courage people to call the HMRC it number they have
:08:28. > :08:31.received. We are putting people with immediate effect on to that hotline
:08:32. > :08:40.to ensure that we can resolve that. I had been talking consistently on
:08:41. > :08:44.this fact, that as soon as we can resolve the facts of the case, we
:08:45. > :08:56.will get money into people 's accounts in a matter of days.
:08:57. > :08:59.Whilst we on this side certainly welcome that HMRC is finally taking
:09:00. > :09:01.action in announcing that the Concentrix contract
:09:02. > :09:05.will not be renewed, it's most regrettable
:09:06. > :09:20.that the government has only done this when events have been
:09:21. > :09:30.How much of the savings were as a result of incorrectly cutting
:09:31. > :09:34.payments? How much does the government intend to claw back to
:09:35. > :09:41.directly compensate those who have been affected? The minister tells us
:09:42. > :09:46.and I am pleased, that civil servants have now been drafted in to
:09:47. > :09:49.clear up the mess. How much will that cost the taxpayer and will the
:09:50. > :09:58.government be seeking additional payment from Concentrix to fund that
:09:59. > :10:08.action? Mr Speaker, one or two of the points that the member raises
:10:09. > :10:14.there, I am not able to respond to. It is important that we are able to
:10:15. > :10:23.resolve the outstanding cases. We are not renewing the contract but we
:10:24. > :10:28.do intend to go down on fraud. It is important. There is a lot of fraud
:10:29. > :10:38.in the system. It has been a success, to be able to reduce that.
:10:39. > :10:41.We need to continue to bear down on that because money that is
:10:42. > :10:46.fraudulently obtained is not available to taxpayers. It remains a
:10:47. > :10:53.vital matter that we do address that. For the moment, my primary
:10:54. > :10:58.consideration is addressing the matter to ensure that we take care
:10:59. > :11:02.of our most vulnerable constituents. Mr Speaker, I am a big fan of
:11:03. > :11:10.helping those people who are trying very hard to get on with life. Are
:11:11. > :11:15.those people still going to be dealt with by Concentrix? Are they going
:11:16. > :11:20.to have the fear of being prosecuted as they go forwards as the what
:11:21. > :11:32.assurance can the Minister give that those people are going to be looked
:11:33. > :11:45.after? I have laid out the arrangements that are going to be
:11:46. > :11:59.taking place. We will be looking at cases where Concentrix has already
:12:00. > :12:03.focused on, open cases. Concentrix have assisted the government and
:12:04. > :12:09.indeed the taxpayer in identifying those. I think it is important to
:12:10. > :12:17.keep this in perspective. HMRC has made it clear its intention to not
:12:18. > :12:23.continue its contract. Can I thank the Minister and the HMRC for
:12:24. > :12:27.reacting so quickly to the issues? What estimation has been made of the
:12:28. > :12:31.current backlog that needs to be dealt with by Concentrix and the
:12:32. > :12:36.HMRC? How should those people who are currently being dealt with
:12:37. > :12:42.contact Concentrix? Should they contact the HMRC directly? Why were
:12:43. > :12:46.these appalling errors not acted on before they were revealed in
:12:47. > :12:53.Parliamentary questions? Will they be bringing the country back
:12:54. > :12:58.in-house in May next year? Will they commit to a review of all payments
:12:59. > :13:05.by result contracts that are completely inappropriate in our
:13:06. > :13:09.system? I am aware that the honourable lady has obviously been
:13:10. > :13:15.very active in this and has asked a number of questions. I think with
:13:16. > :13:23.regard to performance it is important to note, and performance
:13:24. > :13:27.does support this, that actually it is in the recent weeks in particular
:13:28. > :13:33.that performance has been not acceptable. It is not a case that
:13:34. > :13:38.this has been something that has been an acute problem for a
:13:39. > :13:42.considerable length of time. It is the case that performance has not
:13:43. > :13:47.been acceptable in recent weeks so I just want to make that point. With
:13:48. > :13:52.regard to who people should contact, the number is on the letters that
:13:53. > :13:55.they have received. I am aware of the problems of getting through to
:13:56. > :14:03.the phones in recent weeks. Indeed, I have had some myself. We are
:14:04. > :14:06.putting forth additional resources to allow Concentrix to focus on
:14:07. > :14:12.entering the phones, while additional staff deal with back
:14:13. > :14:18.cases and some of the complexities so that people can fake as a focus
:14:19. > :14:26.on the additional issue. Some are coming in. We think there are around
:14:27. > :14:28.2500 in the system left to deal with, because it is that time of
:14:29. > :14:55.year. Can my honourable friend clarify who
:14:56. > :15:02.from HMRC or wherever is going to deal with claims of errors, fraud
:15:03. > :15:06.and others problems. We has had a strong signal that it is not
:15:07. > :15:16.acceptable but we want to see genuine claimants compensated. I can
:15:17. > :15:24.reassure my honourable friend that both can is an HR NCR has three
:15:25. > :15:28.matters of fraud. Obviously HMRC will continue to pursue cases of
:15:29. > :15:33.fraud but indeed the government has put in additional resources into
:15:34. > :15:43.supporting the general tax avoidance and of evasion complains --
:15:44. > :15:50.compliance aspects. Mapping the Minister for statement and attention
:15:51. > :15:55.to the difference to the previous government response. I don't believe
:15:56. > :16:00.we would have this statement if not for the leadership election. I think
:16:01. > :16:05.of that and likewise I hope she would pass on our thanks for the
:16:06. > :16:11.immediate action she took on the action she took on the report I
:16:12. > :16:19.submitted. She was asked investigate the unlawful use of self-employment.
:16:20. > :16:23.The two questions I would like to ask, the worries about this contract
:16:24. > :16:25.is that they appear for some people to be cutting benefits and asking
:16:26. > :16:28.questions. And there is no mechanism
:16:29. > :16:31.by which MPs have got a hotline to try and sort
:16:32. > :16:34.out those issues out. Well very much work King --
:16:35. > :16:37.working to bring the work in House, might she acknowledge that
:16:38. > :16:40.this is a contract in place where a private company is able to make
:16:41. > :16:44.a decision on benefit money for It could be deemed as quite cheeky
:16:45. > :17:09.tasks many questions. Mr Speaker, I thank
:17:10. > :17:11.the right macro -- to honourable member around fact
:17:12. > :17:18.that it is priority to resolve I do think it is again be it
:17:19. > :17:26.a rating that through this contract we have secured
:17:27. > :17:29.to ?280 million of identified savings in terms of error and fraud
:17:30. > :17:33.and that it continues to be considerable
:17:34. > :17:36.fraud and regard to where people are I do not think it is important to
:17:37. > :17:46.recognise this contract has brought This contract does
:17:47. > :17:51.have its place but it work appropriately and it must do
:17:52. > :17:55.what it is set out to do and it should work for taxpayers and should
:17:56. > :17:57.work for the vulnerable. I will reflect on as
:17:58. > :18:00.wide a point if I may. I want to give him reassurance
:18:01. > :18:07.on that Gerald Bull point. All members of the House will have
:18:08. > :18:15.received a deluge of harrowing cases of people
:18:16. > :18:18.who have had cause to have The first of all
:18:19. > :18:31.they were even unsure this company existed,
:18:32. > :18:34.they thought it was a scam letter, There has been for delay
:18:35. > :18:39.in post-opening and try to get through on the telephone has
:18:40. > :18:41.been next to impossible. This has been a service level that
:18:42. > :18:44.has an acceptable Can she assured us that
:18:45. > :18:48.her statement shows this government is committed to
:18:49. > :18:51.helping the vulnerable immediately I thank my honourable
:18:52. > :18:57.friend for those These contracts, right
:18:58. > :19:01.across government we have important contracts with people
:19:02. > :19:02.to provide a server, but they need to be provided to an
:19:03. > :19:05.acceptable standard. HMRC have taken into account
:19:06. > :19:08.operational performance I think the focus for all of us,
:19:09. > :19:21.for ministers, for HMRC and individual members working
:19:22. > :19:25.in their constituency capacities as to make sure our most vulnerable
:19:26. > :19:28.constituents are supported as soon as possible to make sure that money
:19:29. > :19:32.they are entitled to hits their bank accounts and they do not have the
:19:33. > :19:35.stress of wondering where that money All of us as constituency
:19:36. > :19:42.members of Parliament can relay stories of how the service
:19:43. > :19:46.contract has worked and has been But on the issue of the jobs that
:19:47. > :19:51.will be lost, some of them in Belfast, can she tell us
:19:52. > :19:55.what contact she has had with the Northern Ireland executive or
:19:56. > :19:58.the HMRC has had with the relevant devolved administrations regions are
:19:59. > :20:01.about the effect on jobs and what will be done to give support
:20:02. > :20:12.to those who will lose jobs? I think it is important to note
:20:13. > :20:15.that the decision has been taken by HMRC not
:20:16. > :20:19.to renew the contract, so to that extent the decision for a private
:20:20. > :20:22.company like Concentrix as to what they do beyond that point
:20:23. > :20:25.is a matter for them. But I am sure that in the normal
:20:26. > :20:28.way, if the right honourable gentleman has
:20:29. > :20:30.concerns that nature, This is not a decision to end
:20:31. > :20:35.the contract here and no, it is a decision not to renew
:20:36. > :20:49.it in the spring. What other steps being taken
:20:50. > :20:52.by the government to protect the Can my honourable
:20:53. > :20:55.friend assure them a House that the lessons
:20:56. > :20:57.learned in this case will not be applied
:20:58. > :20:59.to the hat contract in May,
:21:00. > :21:01.but across more contracts I hope I can give that reassurance
:21:02. > :21:09.that not just in the future but obviously in the past and to date,
:21:10. > :21:13.it has always been the case that when the government contracts
:21:14. > :21:15.with the supplier to provide a service, that it should be
:21:16. > :21:17.provided to the right standard, that contract
:21:18. > :21:20.will be monitored and we make sure that service levels are except 22
:21:21. > :21:22.members Despite what the Minister
:21:23. > :21:35.has said earlier, I have constituents who have had
:21:36. > :21:39.their tax credits cut off without receiving any prior
:21:40. > :21:40.notification and has spent up to 70 minutes
:21:41. > :21:42.on the Which is a huge drain
:21:43. > :21:52.on the resources. Can she tell us whether the contract
:21:53. > :21:55.included penalties for concentric 's not providing an acceptable service
:21:56. > :21:59.level or answering call is within a set time, if not, who will
:22:00. > :22:02.take the responsibility or negotiating such
:22:03. > :22:12.Waiting 70 minutes to have a collards and is not acceptable.
:22:13. > :22:14.I would understand the distress caused.
:22:15. > :22:16.I am going to write to the
:22:17. > :22:24.honourable lady about that, I do not have the detail at hand.
:22:25. > :22:27.I need to assess what we can say in terms of
:22:28. > :23:07.She was expected to deliver at is half the original says -- savings
:23:08. > :23:20.plan on a contract. What more can the government do to improve the
:23:21. > :23:29.tendering process. This is a payment by results contract and as I said in
:23:30. > :23:36.the response to the Honourable Lady, concentric swell not be paid when
:23:37. > :23:42.they have not acted appropriately, it is important to get this right.
:23:43. > :23:47.-- Concentrix. I give him the reassurance that HCMR and indeed
:23:48. > :23:52.government ministers will always seek to get the right contracts but
:23:53. > :23:56.where there are lessons to be learnt we must reflect on them and make
:23:57. > :24:03.sure that they are then reflected in future arrangements. Last week in
:24:04. > :24:11.evidence to the Institute of government the former Secretary of
:24:12. > :24:23.State admitted that outsourcing to the private sector was not a panacea
:24:24. > :24:27.. Is it not time for a full review of outsourcing in the welfare system
:24:28. > :24:33.and looking at whether it is appropriate at all or if there is
:24:34. > :24:42.better provision to be done by civil service to oversee that this never
:24:43. > :24:47.happens again. Again, I would urge members to keep a degree of
:24:48. > :24:51.perspective. There are lots of contracts that deliver what we want
:24:52. > :24:57.and it is worth noting again that this contract delivered ?280 million
:24:58. > :25:03.of savings which is a sensible return on investment. Service levels
:25:04. > :25:07.must be acceptable and to the standard we have contracted. There
:25:08. > :25:12.are circumstances when the company used allows governments are
:25:13. > :25:20.cost-effective way of doing something they may not have the
:25:21. > :25:24.flexible capacity seed to do or it is easier in an unsure period than
:25:25. > :25:28.doing it in-house. I think the point is made and I will reflect on them
:25:29. > :25:39.but I do not draw the same general conclusion that he has. I concur
:25:40. > :25:42.with the excellent point made by the member and the Minister will note
:25:43. > :25:51.that genuine errors will occur by constituents and HMRC. Sometimes
:25:52. > :25:55.that for compassion is not shown by HMRC were looking at the
:25:56. > :26:02.circumstances, can we ensure that those are done in those difficult
:26:03. > :26:05.circumstances for those in need. Of course I have had the same
:26:06. > :26:12.experience as my honourable friend, only last week I sat with a
:26:13. > :26:17.constituent who had a very complex case and was in a very difficult
:26:18. > :26:30.situation. It is the case that if we take it upon the heart of
:26:31. > :26:36.constituents but when they are in HMRC, it is important to soar people
:26:37. > :26:43.out and get money into the bank accounts of constituents as soon as
:26:44. > :26:48.possible. It is clearly an interest in the urgent question the points
:26:49. > :26:55.are being made on all sides of the house will be heard when they need
:26:56. > :27:03.to be heard. There are a significant number of my constituents who have
:27:04. > :27:07.been left disadvantaged by the antics of the government. Canny
:27:08. > :27:11.ministers say that she will look seriously into finding this company
:27:12. > :27:14.and using those resources to compensate my constituents for the
:27:15. > :27:24.financial distress they have suffered. To reiterate what I said
:27:25. > :27:33.previously, I will ask HMRC to clarify the contractual obligations.
:27:34. > :27:37.As a constituency MP who has dealt with a number of cases I am pleased
:27:38. > :27:40.to note the action the government has taken. As a member of the Public
:27:41. > :27:43.Accounts Committee I have sat through numerous reports on the
:27:44. > :27:49.quality of service that HMRC provides, which is hardly call
:27:50. > :27:52.service, what assurance that the minister have to say that we will
:27:53. > :27:57.not see our drop-off in terms of service, standards and future
:27:58. > :28:04.arrangements? I don't believe that will be the case as I say HMRC has
:28:05. > :28:08.been dealing with cases of the same time as Concentrix throughout the
:28:09. > :28:17.contract, and I have been assured that when 100 and 50 of the
:28:18. > :28:20.additional staff deployed, and I have no reason to believe that the
:28:21. > :28:26.services are suffering. The point is been made and will be investigated.
:28:27. > :28:31.I am glad to hear that he Concentrix contract is ending but as the
:28:32. > :28:39.minister mentioned they will still be dealing with ongoing casework.
:28:40. > :28:43.Can she deal with a constituent of mind's situation who has been
:28:44. > :28:49.plunged into 13 thousand pounds of debt due to concentric. --
:28:50. > :28:59.Concentrix. Will she take up this case lease? If any member wishes to
:29:00. > :29:06.write me a look at it as a matter of priority. If she wanted to come or
:29:07. > :29:09.ring a complex case tomorrow to the drop in HMRC, if she liked to write
:29:10. > :29:23.me I will respond. Or the thank you, Mr Speaker. I
:29:24. > :29:29.first raised this issue in late January. That was about a family
:29:30. > :29:33.that did not have any income and it had been going on for wheat. Why
:29:34. > :29:45.does it take the BBC's programme to bring ministers to this dispatch box
:29:46. > :29:52.is the on Monday, HMRC and Concentrix, on the basis that no one
:29:53. > :29:56.will take responsibility. I think that involving the private sector in
:29:57. > :30:00.a sensitive, the main issue like this does not work. I am sorry to
:30:01. > :30:05.hear that the honourable gentleman had that difficult experience. I
:30:06. > :30:08.cannot agree with his general point that there is no role for the
:30:09. > :30:13.private sector in this regard. I refer again to the amount of money
:30:14. > :30:17.that has been saved to the taxpayer. There is a amount of fraud in the
:30:18. > :30:22.system and it is important that we bear down on this because clearly,
:30:23. > :30:30.that money should, we do not want to go into people for whom it is not
:30:31. > :30:36.appropriate. Most of the fraud, much of the fraud, does rest in that
:30:37. > :30:40.area. As he highlighted, it is a particularly difficult and sensitive
:30:41. > :30:43.issue to investigate but we do need to continue to investigate because
:30:44. > :30:54.the amount of fraud involved is considerable. We can all share the
:30:55. > :31:01.stories of anguish to our constituents and frustration for in
:31:02. > :31:06.dealing with this issue. We should also remember that the HMRC itself
:31:07. > :31:12.is not an innocent agent in this. It designed this contract. Its port
:31:13. > :31:17.customer hostility and suspicion into the contract, into the very
:31:18. > :31:21.practices that are in the contract and of course, it was HMRC that were
:31:22. > :31:30.providing the names that were targeted by Concentrix. Well some of
:31:31. > :31:35.those bigger policy miss guidance is being looked at as well as the
:31:36. > :31:43.enjoyment we are all having today in scapegoating Concentrix themselves?
:31:44. > :31:48.Mr Speaker, I returned to the answer I gave just a moment ago that we do
:31:49. > :31:52.need to continue to bear down on fraud in the system. There is a
:31:53. > :31:58.considerable amount of fraud. I am afraid it would be naive to think
:31:59. > :32:03.that all of this is error. There is fraud in the system but there is a
:32:04. > :32:07.lot of error which the original tax credits makes it easier. It is the
:32:08. > :32:12.case that we do need to continue to bear down on fraud but clearly, we
:32:13. > :32:17.need to do it in a way that does not make it difficult to assist the most
:32:18. > :32:21.vulnerable. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The minister has mentioned fraud and
:32:22. > :32:27.number of times. While obviously there is fraud in the system, I
:32:28. > :32:31.really do not see that as an excuse for constituents such as mine like
:32:32. > :32:35.Sarah Hodgson, with three young children, struggling to putting on
:32:36. > :32:46.the table. It is no excuse for incompetent contract is. I am glad
:32:47. > :32:50.that we have employed extra HMRC staff to assist people. The others
:32:51. > :32:56.in my area is due for closure. Our nearest regional office is more than
:32:57. > :33:00.200 Miles Drive away. Will you please review the closure of our
:33:01. > :33:08.local offices so that people can keep support in this situation is
:33:09. > :33:14.that they so much need like this? I am sorry to hear about the case that
:33:15. > :33:21.she mentions. She raises a wider issue about the modernisation issue
:33:22. > :33:26.that HMRC is going to. Perhaps it would be more appropriate if she
:33:27. > :33:31.wrote to me. It is important in terms of the modernisation of HMRC
:33:32. > :33:38.as they go forwards. Although, it does mean that some HMRC offices are
:33:39. > :33:46.being closed. It is about delivering a better and more modern service
:33:47. > :33:52.into the future for all of our constituents. I trust that there
:33:53. > :33:58.will be some compensation paid to the company, first of all for the
:33:59. > :34:06.way that the contracts were handled but also for the extra cost
:34:07. > :34:10.incurred. It was not so long ago that this house was condemning the
:34:11. > :34:14.HMRC for not answering more than half of telephone calls that were
:34:15. > :34:20.made by constituents about tax matters. What steps have the
:34:21. > :34:27.minister taken to ensure that new cases will be brought in-house, that
:34:28. > :34:33.there will not be that same problems with the HMRC that there had been
:34:34. > :34:37.with concentric? I think it is obviously documented that at times
:34:38. > :34:42.in the past, the HMRC have had problems with the phones. I think
:34:43. > :34:49.some of the information in the public domain lately has been rather
:34:50. > :34:54.outdated. The HMRC phone performance is considerably better in recent
:34:55. > :34:59.weeks. I think it is important in all of these things that we do reach
:35:00. > :35:08.some balance, with regard to the point bounce Concentrix. It is worth
:35:09. > :35:12.noting that they have amended around 5500 claims. I reiterate that this
:35:13. > :35:18.is an important exercise but really needs to be done in the right way.
:35:19. > :35:21.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I work in the news from the minister that
:35:22. > :35:28.Concentrix will not have their contract renewed. In the meantime,
:35:29. > :35:33.there has been a lot of talk about what is unacceptable. I think there
:35:34. > :35:40.has been a lot of focus on fraud. What we are talking about today is
:35:41. > :35:46.tremendous suffering. We're not talking about exceptions, we are
:35:47. > :35:52.talking about the widespread norm, causing exceptional misery to some
:35:53. > :36:01.families. Let me just yet with you a story of one of my constituents. A
:36:02. > :36:09.single mother of four, whose tax benefits were cut. As a result of
:36:10. > :36:14.that, she cannot get benefits for the baby. She has been told more
:36:15. > :36:20.importantly, that she cannot have her claim reopened for 44 days. Will
:36:21. > :36:22.the minister reassure me that she will intervene as a matter of
:36:23. > :36:28.urgency? I am sorry to hear her constituents
:36:29. > :36:32.has had such a difficult time. I would urge her to
:36:33. > :36:42.use the resource I have referred to throughout
:36:43. > :36:44.this to take that up. I hope that can be resolved
:36:45. > :36:48.and as soon as possible. I have emphasised, and HMRC
:36:49. > :36:50.are aware of this, speed is of the essence, where people have
:36:51. > :36:54.had their tax credits erroneously She is right, there is
:36:55. > :37:01.error in the system. I reiterate this is a too complex
:37:02. > :37:05.system and that is why the government is looking to make
:37:06. > :37:07.a major long-term reform to the way we do this,
:37:08. > :37:10.because even the honest taxpayer can easily fall
:37:11. > :37:13.into error in a system that was so complex in
:37:14. > :37:16.its design from the start. As we sit here,
:37:17. > :37:18.families up and down the country have had to rely on charity
:37:19. > :37:22.and food banks to make ends meet due to ridiculous decisions
:37:23. > :37:25.made by Concentrix. Given that so many
:37:26. > :37:32.are living a day to day existence,
:37:33. > :37:35.can the Minister confirm just how quickly people can expect to receive
:37:36. > :37:38.the money they are rightly The HMRC, at the point
:37:39. > :37:57.at which the facts are resolved, it is important we do that quickly,
:37:58. > :38:02.at the point when we have done and that may be in the course of one
:38:03. > :38:05.phone call, I am assured and this
:38:06. > :38:08.is what I expect to see, within a matter of around four
:38:09. > :38:11.working days, no longer, we would get money
:38:12. > :38:13.into people's accounts. But we need to establish
:38:14. > :38:26.the facts in each instance. It is worth saying,
:38:27. > :38:32.for the sake of the House, having some sense of
:38:33. > :38:33.the 6% of customers asked
:38:34. > :38:36.for a review of a decision
:38:37. > :38:39.following a cheque. That is a large number
:38:40. > :38:42.of people being checked, but nevertheless it
:38:43. > :38:44.would be wrong to think that this was a huge
:38:45. > :38:46.proportion of the cases. It is important we get
:38:47. > :38:49.those ones right and we look to pay people
:38:50. > :38:52.within days, as soon as we have The Minister says that
:38:53. > :38:56.HMRC is supporting Concentrix in performing
:38:57. > :38:59.their contract ending next year. What is the cost to the public purse
:39:00. > :39:02.of that support that is being
:39:03. > :39:04.provided and is that It has always been the case that
:39:05. > :39:14.as you would expect managers within HMRC have been working with
:39:15. > :39:16.Concentrix throughout, so I don't anticipate that that will be
:39:17. > :39:20.an enormous additional cost because there has always
:39:21. > :39:25.been a relationship because there has been some
:39:26. > :39:29.overlap in the work to be done and I would expect
:39:30. > :39:32.that to continue as we work towards the end
:39:33. > :39:37.of the contract. The Minister is engaged
:39:38. > :39:38.in crisis management, crisis management
:39:39. > :39:43.itself is not good enough. In the opening
:39:44. > :39:46.statement, she said In the opening statement,
:39:47. > :39:49.she said that Concentrix are not One of my constituents
:39:50. > :39:53.got a letter wanting Investigation is needed soon and it
:39:54. > :40:05.needs to look at the contract terms, order process and Concentrix
:40:06. > :40:09.behaviour and needs to look at what is the true
:40:10. > :40:11.resource requirements. Unless she announces this,
:40:12. > :40:13.we will be back here HMRC has data analytics
:40:14. > :40:23.and operational experience to deliver the kind of
:40:24. > :40:27.savings we are looking for in terms Practical measures going forward
:40:28. > :40:35.in simplifying the system, and improved detection
:40:36. > :40:42.of fraud are important parts of making sure we improve
:40:43. > :40:44.performance going forward. It is worth noting
:40:45. > :40:46.again that we have saved hundreds of millions of pounds
:40:47. > :40:49.to the taxpayer by reducing error and fraud but we want to make it
:40:50. > :40:53.harder in the future for people to As long as I have been one
:40:54. > :41:02.of their MPs, HMRC has treated people in the Wirral
:41:03. > :41:03.with disrespect, with indignity and this
:41:04. > :41:05.is just the worst in a long
:41:06. > :41:08.series of cases. Can I ask the minister one question,
:41:09. > :41:11.when did she first meet Concentrix to raise our
:41:12. > :41:13.concerns with them for? I have been a minister
:41:14. > :41:20.since mid-July, I have not met Concentrix because I have not
:41:21. > :41:25.been a minister for that long. Clearly colleagues,
:41:26. > :41:27.previous colleagues, But I have been working with HMRC
:41:28. > :41:32.to look at the regular monitoring and given the interest
:41:33. > :41:41.from colleagues across the House in recent weeks, I have been getting
:41:42. > :41:43.daily updates from HMRC But in the relatively short time,
:41:44. > :41:47.given that we have had summer recess, being in my post,
:41:48. > :41:50.I have not met them. I am sure HMRC will be disappointed
:41:51. > :41:54.to hear what she says but I think
:41:55. > :41:57.they would want to reflect One of the issues reported by my
:41:58. > :42:08.constituents is the requirement to send all the documentation
:42:09. > :42:11.by registered post, which costs over This is money that they can ill
:42:12. > :42:15.afford when they're living on the Will the Secretary of State
:42:16. > :42:23.look urgently at alternative methods of sending
:42:24. > :42:26.documentation in the remaining time I will ask that question,
:42:27. > :42:36.but I cannot give any assurance as to whether it is
:42:37. > :42:43.possible to alter that She highlights an important point
:42:44. > :42:49.about where we go in the future with The more that we can
:42:50. > :42:52.make these things digital and make them really easy
:42:53. > :42:55.for people to get right, the more likely we are to avoid
:42:56. > :42:58.these unhappy situations. The Financial Secretary must know
:42:59. > :43:03.I tabled five questions on this With 1800 people in
:43:04. > :43:19.Belfast employed by Concentrix, with Concentrix
:43:20. > :43:27.redeveloping onto one location in the city of Belfast,
:43:28. > :43:31.could I ask her to reflect how appalling that was
:43:32. > :43:33.that members of staff, how appalling that was that members
:43:34. > :43:37.of staff, many of my constituents, last night from a tweet by the BBC,
:43:38. > :43:41.as by any information from Concentrix and any
:43:42. > :43:43.information from this House. As I have said a number of times,
:43:44. > :43:47.the contract is not being The consideration of whether any
:43:48. > :43:51.contract is renewed is something that takes place in
:43:52. > :43:54.the normal course of events. The honourable gentleman does
:43:55. > :43:56.give me an opportunity to place on record my
:43:57. > :44:00.thanks to the many, many Concentrix It is as the same time
:44:01. > :44:05.as we shine a light on where Adam -- form is as
:44:06. > :44:08.unacceptable, there are many people who are doing a good job and
:44:09. > :44:12.providing a good level of service. Many people are succeeding
:44:13. > :44:22.in that regard. I know the Minister says she sees no
:44:23. > :44:26.need for an enquiry but I and I know many colleagues in the chamber
:44:27. > :44:30.today and certainly constituents of ours would disagree
:44:31. > :44:32.with that position. My question would be how
:44:33. > :44:35.can we learn lessons to ensure these practices employed
:44:36. > :44:38.by Concentrix don't ever come to light again,
:44:39. > :44:41.if we don't look into to light again, if we don't look
:44:42. > :44:44.into the practices carried out by some form
:44:45. > :44:46.of investigation or enquiry? I think it is right
:44:47. > :44:57.that in the normal we arrange things in the future,
:44:58. > :45:01.to reflect on what we can learn from things that have already happened,
:45:02. > :45:04.and that would be something you would do through a normal process
:45:05. > :45:07.of review and consideration. We will just have to agree to differ
:45:08. > :45:10.with regard to the issue I have been contacted by so many
:45:11. > :45:18.distressed women in my constituency about how
:45:19. > :45:31.awful Concentrix is. to mums who were only trying
:45:32. > :45:37.to renew their tax credits to get payday loans to feed
:45:38. > :45:39.their children. There is a group formed
:45:40. > :45:47.with over 5000 members. On this group, mothers
:45:48. > :45:51.share their horror stories. The lady may have got
:45:52. > :46:05.the Burnley condition. One mother hadn't
:46:06. > :46:14.eaten for three days This is sickening
:46:15. > :46:25.and should be stopped. I am aware of the Facebook
:46:26. > :46:28.group she mentions and the nature of the cases
:46:29. > :46:30.documented there. To end on when I began,
:46:31. > :46:34.Mr Speaker, that is why we are deploying additional resources
:46:35. > :46:36.so we can deal with the most difficult cases where people
:46:37. > :46:38.are vulnerable in the quickest time possible
:46:39. > :46:42.and that will be my focus and that of HMRC
:46:43. > :46:58.We come to the ten minute rule motion.
:46:59. > :47:02.Ten minute rule motion, Charlie Elphicke.
:47:03. > :47:07.I beg that leave be given to bring in a bill
:47:08. > :47:09.of the United Kingdom from membership of the European
:47:10. > :47:17.Brexit means Brexit and we will make a success of it.
:47:18. > :47:20.It also means Brexit means Brexit and it means we
:47:21. > :47:30.The matter of Article 50 is a matter for
:47:31. > :47:33.The matter of Article 50 is a matter for the Prime Minister alone.
:47:34. > :47:36.She has the mandate of the masses given to her
:47:37. > :47:39.on June the 23rd and it is right that she invoke it.
:47:40. > :47:42.I hope the sooner she invokes that the better
:47:43. > :47:45.so we have the security, the stability and the certainty we need
:47:46. > :47:48.as we seek to build a post Brexit Britain.
:47:49. > :47:51.I bring this House, I bring this bill to the House today.
:47:52. > :47:53.First to give the House an opportunity to
:47:54. > :47:59.endorse and accept the decision of the British people on June the 23rd.
:48:00. > :48:02.And second, to talk about the red lines that the British people
:48:03. > :48:14.clearly have in terms of what Brexit will look like.
:48:15. > :48:18.And third, a kind of vision we can have for the post Brexit
:48:19. > :48:21.The first issue is this issue of where
:48:22. > :48:26.members of Parliament were when it came to the referendum.
:48:27. > :48:37.I myself was concerned about the border
:48:38. > :48:40.I am here today to say that is their decision.
:48:41. > :48:49.This is in particular for the Labour Party to reject it,
:48:50. > :48:51.we should have a second referendum to drive
:48:52. > :49:01.the British people back into the European Union again.
:49:02. > :49:03.It is not an opportunity for the party opposite
:49:04. > :49:08.we accept and will submit to the will of the British people and will
:49:09. > :49:12.I see the SNP as well who don't seem like
:49:13. > :49:19.to like the result of any referendum on these British Isles at all.
:49:20. > :49:21.Including accepting the decision of the Scottish people to
:49:22. > :49:24.remain part of the European union and the United Kingdom.
:49:25. > :49:32.I would say to them, they would be wrong to
:49:33. > :49:34.think that if at first you don't succeed, vote,
:49:35. > :49:41.That would be the wrong approach to take.
:49:42. > :49:46.Turning to the red lines of the British people, it is
:49:47. > :49:49.very clear that the British people are deeply concerned about the level
:49:50. > :49:57.And they have been told and pledged in
:49:58. > :50:01.manifestos, that the number would be brought down of net migration
:50:02. > :50:12.And they are very concerned, people on Dover tell me
:50:13. > :50:14.on a regular basis, about the downward pressure this
:50:15. > :50:17.makes on their wages and they have been
:50:18. > :50:18.underlined and proved right.
:50:19. > :50:21.By important research that showed wages to be ?450
:50:22. > :50:29.lower for hard-working classes of Britain.
:50:30. > :50:37.And indeed, they found that if we did indeed succeed in bringing
:50:38. > :50:45.migration down to the tens of thousands, we would have a pay rise.
:50:46. > :50:51.There is work published by the OECD in 2009 that says mass migration has
:50:52. > :50:54.not benefit at the people of written in general. It does not have an
:50:55. > :51:02.economic good for the British people in their daily lives. That red line
:51:03. > :51:07.is really crystal clear. We must and uncontrolled EU immigration. The
:51:08. > :51:15.second point was also underlined by Lord Ashcroft. It is very clear that
:51:16. > :51:20.people do not want to have billions for Brussels. That has got to end.
:51:21. > :51:25.We cannot have any deal that involves handing billions of pounds
:51:26. > :51:30.over to Brussels. That money should remain at home and be invested in
:51:31. > :51:38.Britain. We need to use that money wisely, which brings me to the final
:51:39. > :51:44.point which I want to make. A most important point, what is a post
:51:45. > :51:49.Grexit written going to look like? My constituents say to me that it
:51:50. > :51:58.has always seemed to be about investing in HS2 or runways in
:51:59. > :52:04.in oils seems to be about benefiting the Jetset elite. Why is it never
:52:05. > :52:18.about us in London? An infrastructure project that they
:52:19. > :52:24.have been waiting for for so long, which OS seems to work for the
:52:25. > :52:32.elites, not for the regional populace? The majority of the
:52:33. > :52:42.British people live in the regions, London has only 10%.
:52:43. > :52:49.The south-east has a difference of some 26%. My constituents couldn't
:52:50. > :52:53.do that and said the allocation of resources in this country is not
:52:54. > :53:02.bear. This is an opportunity to make that zero. Then it comes down to an
:53:03. > :53:06.issue of who does Britain work for? They feel Britain to offer and works
:53:07. > :53:09.for the Philip Green 's of this world, for the privileged few,
:53:10. > :53:21.rather than the hard-working working-class kids of Dover and
:53:22. > :53:25.Darlington. That needs to change. We all know that big companies are
:53:26. > :53:31.gaining the corporate tax system and paying hardly any tax in this
:53:32. > :53:41.country, they are about Apple. We all know that is on our too. We need
:53:42. > :53:46.to make sure that when it comes to Google, that Google pay a fair share
:53:47. > :53:51.of tax in this country. When it comes to car rental businesses, for
:53:52. > :53:59.me, that showed that we are being taken for a ride. They were imposing
:54:00. > :54:05.a Grexit tax on us, while not paying any corporate tax to Britain. It is
:54:06. > :54:10.that kind of thing that drives the people of Dover a round the bend and
:54:11. > :54:14.we need to put a stop to it. We can do that when we leave the European
:54:15. > :54:20.Union. Very simply we can do that because we will not struck by their
:54:21. > :54:25.antidiscrimination rules. We need to ensure that the nation works for the
:54:26. > :54:29.people as a whole, rather than the bloated bonuses that we have seen
:54:30. > :54:37.too much of recently and in recent years. Pay in the boardroom is 150
:54:38. > :54:45.times that of the chief executives, then it is for employees. That is
:54:46. > :54:56.not right and that has doubled in the pass 20 years. -- past 20 years.
:54:57. > :55:00.That kind of culture needs to change. We need to have a country
:55:01. > :55:06.that works for everyone, not just the few. It is very important to
:55:07. > :55:12.ensure that when we have investment, we have investment in the region is,
:55:13. > :55:18.like Bristol and Birmingham and Manchester. It is important that we
:55:19. > :55:26.have rail and roads for the regions as well. Brexit means Brexit. We are
:55:27. > :55:31.going to make a success of it. It is also an opportunity to change the
:55:32. > :55:37.way we run Britain, to change our way of life. To change who we work
:55:38. > :55:43.for, and to make sure that our country works for everyone. That is
:55:44. > :55:47.the change that we want to make. It was the towns and villages of this
:55:48. > :55:51.country that decided to take this country out of the European Union
:55:52. > :55:57.and those towns should be supported for leading the charge on the kind
:55:58. > :56:08.of future that we can have as we head out into the supermarket of the
:56:09. > :56:12.world. Two to claim the honourable member of his right to bring in the
:56:13. > :56:17.bill. He said that we in Scotland should have respect for the
:56:18. > :56:23.decision, the outcome of the referendum. I very much respect the
:56:24. > :56:28.outcome of those nations who voted to leave the EU. I would simply say
:56:29. > :56:31.to my friend from Dover, perhaps he and his colleagues should respect
:56:32. > :56:38.the wishes of those nations who voted to remain in the EU. It is
:56:39. > :56:44.always sweet I think to be chided by the honourable member for Dover, who
:56:45. > :56:54.railed against a Jetset elite, who talked about the imbalance in
:56:55. > :57:00.boardroom pay. We do not need to leave the EU to tackle that
:57:01. > :57:11.imbalance. He talked about the imbalance in public spending and he
:57:12. > :57:15.was right to do so. Such is the imbalance, Scotland get even less
:57:16. > :57:20.money than the south-east gets. We do not need to leave the EU in order
:57:21. > :57:24.to rebalance public spending throughout the English regions. If I
:57:25. > :57:29.we had an English Parliament to deal with these things, things would be
:57:30. > :57:34.so much better. The honourable gentleman spoke about corporate tax
:57:35. > :57:39.and how little was paid by some of the Goliaths of the global,
:57:40. > :57:49.corporate world. We do not need to leave the EU and we can opportunity
:57:50. > :57:55.further. In essence, the honourable gentleman made a pitch to leave now
:57:56. > :58:04.because he said Brexit means Brexit and we will make a success of it.
:58:05. > :58:09.The problem, and why no one can support this is when the Prime
:58:10. > :58:17.Minister, the leader of government, leader of the Tory party is asked if
:58:18. > :58:27.Brexit means Brexit means we will be in leaving the single market, she
:58:28. > :58:30.does not know. When she was asked today if support for financial
:58:31. > :58:35.services would be maintained, she said that I refer to the answer I
:58:36. > :58:41.gave last week, which is that I do not know. On the basis that Brexit
:58:42. > :58:45.means Brexit is no more than the meaningless, campaigning expression
:58:46. > :58:50.and none of the attributes or benefits described by the honourable
:58:51. > :58:55.gentleman in terms of tackling proper pay, tackling taxation,
:58:56. > :59:05.tackling the imbalance in public regional expenditure in England will
:59:06. > :59:11.be in any way improved by Brexit. I fear that we are going to have two
:59:12. > :59:18.call against the valiant gentleman's attempts to drag the whole of the UK
:59:19. > :59:31.out of the EU before there is even a plan to stop a
:59:32. > :59:38.As many stop a as are of that opinion.
:59:39. > :59:46.The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring
:59:47. > :00:06.This is a trailer for BBC Four's conceptual art season.
:00:07. > :00:11.You see clips of a pile of bricks causing anger in a gallery,