:00:08. > :00:14.Should we remain in the European Union or leave? And what would be
:00:15. > :00:17.best for Wales? On the eve of the biggest decision of our time,
:00:18. > :00:24.welcome to the BBC Wales EU Referendum Debate.
:00:25. > :00:40.Good evening and welcome to the Cardiff and Vale College in the
:00:41. > :00:45.centre of our capital city. We are here after our debate in Swansea
:00:46. > :00:52.last week was cancelled after the tragic killing of MP Jo Cox. For the
:00:53. > :00:56.next hour here on BBC One Wales and BBC Radio 1 ales we will be debating
:00:57. > :01:01.the future of the UK come in or out of the European Union, and what it
:01:02. > :01:05.means for Wales. Joining me tonight, wanting to leave the EU, the
:01:06. > :01:12.Conservative MP David Davis and the leader of Ukip in Wales, Nathan
:01:13. > :01:21.Gill. On the Remain side, the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, and Plaid
:01:22. > :01:26.Cymru leader Leanne Wood. APPLAUSE And audience tonight is a carefully
:01:27. > :01:30.balanced mix of Remain and Leave supporters and those yet to make up
:01:31. > :01:37.their minds. You can join in on our live page on the Wales website.
:01:38. > :01:46.Straight to the first question which is from Gerry Jones. If the UK votes
:01:47. > :01:52.to leave the European Union, will that have a positive or negative
:01:53. > :01:58.effect on the economy in Wales? David Davies. Nobody knows for
:01:59. > :02:02.certain if we pull out or stay in because one thing we can be certain
:02:03. > :02:08.of is that economists predictions are very poor. What we can say is
:02:09. > :02:11.that we buy more from the EU than we sell to it, our biggest trading
:02:12. > :02:15.partner, the country with which we do the most trade is the USA and we
:02:16. > :02:20.don't even have a trade deal with them. If we pull out of the EU, we
:02:21. > :02:25.can almost certainly continue to trade freely with other European
:02:26. > :02:27.states, it is their interests to do so, but we can organise trade deals
:02:28. > :02:41.with countries across the rest of the world. There are
:02:42. > :02:43.countries we have seen doing it, countries like the room who are much
:02:44. > :02:46.smaller in size than the UK and have got trade deals with the European
:02:47. > :02:48.Union. I suggest we have some confidence in ourselves, we are the
:02:49. > :02:51.fifth biggest economy in the world, the seventh Guest Manufacturer.
:02:52. > :02:58.Let's go for it, of course we can trade with the rest of the world. --
:02:59. > :03:03.seventh biggest manufacturer. Why not have confidence for the UK on
:03:04. > :03:11.the world stage? I think there is a risk to public out, it is a big leap
:03:12. > :03:15.in the dark. -- pulling out. It is no coincidence that the major
:03:16. > :03:19.companies in Wales, so many small businesses, the entire higher
:03:20. > :03:23.education sector and the First Minister and myself as Leader of the
:03:24. > :03:30.Opposition, we all believe it is in Wales's best interests to remain. We
:03:31. > :03:35.believe that for economic reasons, cultural reasons, social reasons.
:03:36. > :03:40.There are 191,000 jobs related to Welsh involvement in the European
:03:41. > :03:45.Union. I'm not saying that all of those jobs would be lost if we were
:03:46. > :03:57.to leave but a proportion of them are at risk. Why would we take that
:03:58. > :04:03.risk? Nathan Gill, we know that what is a net beneficiary, to the tune of
:04:04. > :04:09.?79 per head per year in terms of what we put in and get out. It is a
:04:10. > :04:14.different story in the UK which loses out, 151, so the figures are
:04:15. > :04:18.different, do you acknowledge that? This is the most bizarre argument I
:04:19. > :04:23.hear, time after time, that somehow there is a thing such as EU money.
:04:24. > :04:29.It doesn't exist. It is our money that we sent to Europe. The EU
:04:30. > :04:32.creams off whatever they want to and send it to whatever country in
:04:33. > :04:37.Europe they want to and they give us back a pittance. We have been given
:04:38. > :04:43.?2 billion over seven years and we are expected to sell our birthright
:04:44. > :04:46.as a nation, our democracy and our sovereignty for ?2 billion over
:04:47. > :04:56.seven years. It is ridiculous and an insult to the Welsh people. Carwyn
:04:57. > :05:01.Jones, there was regional money for Wales a long way before 1973 and
:05:02. > :05:05.this idea that Wales get more out than it puts in, that would be
:05:06. > :05:11.restored, wouldn't it? It would be money from the UK Government. I have
:05:12. > :05:14.no faith at all in John Redwood and Boris Johnson replacing the
:05:15. > :05:20.Moneypenny for Penny as far as Wales is concerned. But the offer you a
:05:21. > :05:23.common-sense argument. A lot of my job involves attracting investment
:05:24. > :05:27.into Wales, we have just had the lowest unemployment figures for many
:05:28. > :05:31.years, lower than England and Scotland and Northern Ireland, 4.8%.
:05:32. > :05:35.The reason we are in that position is because we have sold Wales and
:05:36. > :05:41.brought jobs to Wales. Every single investor said that we need access to
:05:42. > :05:45.the European market. And unless I can say, of course you can sell to
:05:46. > :05:50.500 million people, they won't come. If we leave, the answer is that we
:05:51. > :05:53.don't know. It means that Ireland and France and Germany will be able
:05:54. > :05:57.to say, they can't answer that question can come to us in stead and
:05:58. > :06:06.we will have the jobs. It makes us harder for us to attract investment,
:06:07. > :06:10.harder to keep jobs. I have a Ford plant in Wales, if we are outside
:06:11. > :06:18.the EU, the investment will go to often in. Mr Jones, I am from Merhi
:06:19. > :06:25.on it and I would like to ask where are those jobs? Can I remind you
:06:26. > :06:29.that the economy is stagnant in Gwynedd. It is more of a risk to
:06:30. > :06:34.stay in than get out, we need to take a chance, we can do this. Put
:06:35. > :06:41.your money where your mouth is. I would like to counter that argument,
:06:42. > :06:46.36,970 jobs have come from EU funding into Wales. I would like to
:06:47. > :06:54.ask the panel, given that the steel industry is exempt from state aid
:06:55. > :06:58.rules and that over 50% of Tata Steel's exports go to the EU, would
:06:59. > :07:03.a Brexit be the death knell for the steel industry in Wales? The EU has
:07:04. > :07:10.been the deathknell of the steel industry in Wales. Plant after plant
:07:11. > :07:22.has disappeared in Wales and now the last one that is here, Tata...
:07:23. > :07:26.Listen... In 1975 we gave away our ability to stop any foreign country
:07:27. > :07:31.from dumping their products cheaply on the markets. The EU has not stood
:07:32. > :07:37.up for Wales, they have not put the tariffs on Chinese steel that the
:07:38. > :07:44.Americans did. Thank you, let's take a point from Carwyn Jones. The EU
:07:45. > :07:47.wanted to improve -- impose Paris on Chinese still, it was the UK
:07:48. > :07:51.Government that blocked it. It will be more difficult as to state our
:07:52. > :07:58.steel industry if we have uncertainty on Friday -- impose
:07:59. > :08:01.tariffs. An investor will ask if we can sell into Europe and if the
:08:02. > :08:05.answer is not yes, it will be more difficult to save our steel
:08:06. > :08:12.industry. When the Tories close down so much of our steel industry, it
:08:13. > :08:14.will happen again. He may not have heard of the World Trade
:08:15. > :08:19.Organisation and he may not understand that under their rules,
:08:20. > :08:24.we can sell to any country in the world anyway without a trade
:08:25. > :08:27.agreement. The point of this gentleman raised, the British
:08:28. > :08:30.tabloid wanted to bring in a compensation package to high energy
:08:31. > :08:34.users including steel companies and were prevented from doing so because
:08:35. > :08:41.of the length of time it took to get through the EU. That is factually
:08:42. > :08:44.incorrect. Business rate up part and part of the Assembly's powers, they
:08:45. > :08:49.could not cut business rate to the level it want to do because the EU
:08:50. > :08:51.prevented it. We cannot bring in Paris as the dumped steel like the
:08:52. > :09:07.Americans did. -- tariffs. It is not the EU that is responsible
:09:08. > :09:14.for high energy costs otherwise why would energy costs be much cheaper
:09:15. > :09:20.in Germany? Also, if the steel industry was going to be so damaged
:09:21. > :09:26.by remaining in the European Union, why are the key players in the
:09:27. > :09:32.industry in Wales supporting Remain? The key trade unions and companies
:09:33. > :09:37.are all calling for a Remain vote. Why would they do that if it is so
:09:38. > :09:46.bad for the industry? They have lost 90% of their trade because of the
:09:47. > :09:52.Italian government which is basically put ?2 billion into state
:09:53. > :09:58.aid to protect the industry. Which is completely illegal. What happened
:09:59. > :10:04.to this level playing field we have been promised by the EU? What is
:10:05. > :10:08.your vision of the UK outside the EU? Would you want the UK to be part
:10:09. > :10:13.of a single market? We know you want out of the EU but what about the
:10:14. > :10:16.single market? I would want to negotiate a trade deal with other
:10:17. > :10:21.European Union countries. I fully accept... How long would that take?
:10:22. > :10:24.I don't know but we can carry on selling as we do to America, we
:10:25. > :10:30.selling and exporting right now without any kind of trade deal. We
:10:31. > :10:39.don't need a trade deal in order to sell goods to people. It doesn't
:10:40. > :10:43.need politicians. China, Japan, South Korea, they don't need it. Do
:10:44. > :10:49.you think the EU would want to make it difficult for the UK to leave?
:10:50. > :10:55.The head of the German CBI only said today that it would be very, very
:10:56. > :11:02.foolish to impose tariffs on UK goods if there was a Brexit. The
:11:03. > :11:05.Germans realised that they sell is 20% of every single car Bateman a
:11:06. > :11:13.fracture. It will not lead to a trade war. -- they manufacture. The
:11:14. > :11:23.reality is that half of our exports go to the EU. In return, 7% comes
:11:24. > :11:31.back. We export far more... It is less than half, full
:11:32. > :11:40.Of course there would be trade, but at a price. It means that Welsh
:11:41. > :11:44.farmers selling land to the EU without an extra tariffs being
:11:45. > :11:53.imposed will find that it is more expensive. It will be much more
:11:54. > :11:57.competitive now than outside. Secondly, you want a free trade with
:11:58. > :12:01.New Zealand, that means more cheap New Zealand lamb coming into Wales.
:12:02. > :12:05.How are our farmers met to deal with that? This could Wales not be more
:12:06. > :12:09.on its own and a global stage without the EU? Would it not
:12:10. > :12:15.strengthen our position? If you are a business and you want to sell to
:12:16. > :12:18.the biggest market you can, at the moment is 500 million. If we wake up
:12:19. > :12:25.on Friday and we say, we can't guarantee access to that... Of
:12:26. > :12:30.course we can. Nobody can do it. If you can't guarantee it, investors
:12:31. > :12:37.and jobs will not come. You speak of the biggest employers and they all
:12:38. > :12:47.agree. The European Union gives Wales the opportunity to have that
:12:48. > :12:55.voice on a world stage. The risk to Wales is that this lot would pull up
:12:56. > :12:59.the drawbridge, take the power from Westminster, concentrate it in
:13:00. > :13:06.London. We would not see any of that power here in Wales, we would be
:13:07. > :13:14.worse off here in Wales. The stick some points from the audience. --
:13:15. > :13:17.let's take. You talk about a market of 500 million people, there is a
:13:18. > :13:22.need a bigger market 7 billion people called the world. You talk
:13:23. > :13:26.about being international, totally want an international Britain and
:13:27. > :13:29.you will only get that when you leave Fortress Europe and the
:13:30. > :13:34.regionalisation of the 1950s and you look outward to the world. That is
:13:35. > :13:42.what is best for Wales not looking inwards to the EU. APPLAUSE
:13:43. > :13:46.The gentleman with the tie. Can I say it is quite rude how you are
:13:47. > :13:51.butting into people, we are here to hear the facts. Can the Leave side
:13:52. > :13:56.tell me why the pound appreciated when there were threats of Brexit?
:13:57. > :14:01.The stock market had gone to the pot, a lot of my mates who are
:14:02. > :14:06.economists who want to go on to the stock market are scared of Brexit
:14:07. > :14:10.and the pound is appreciating. You always get this in the run up to any
:14:11. > :14:13.election, the fact that the pound rocks and that stock markets go up
:14:14. > :14:16.and down is because people are buying and selling and betting on
:14:17. > :14:20.them and that is up to them and it always happens at election times and
:14:21. > :14:28.it is not a good reason to get rid of elections. Are you worried?
:14:29. > :14:34.If the pound falls in value, it would be a huge boost for companies
:14:35. > :14:43.that want to export the rest of the world. This is exactly what Nigel
:14:44. > :14:47.Farage said, so what? July 2014 is when the market started on the
:14:48. > :14:52.pound, if you look at the graphs, it has been going down Fifa years, it's
:14:53. > :14:57.nothing to do with Brexit. For them to say, doom and gloom, we are going
:14:58. > :15:06.to end up living in caves, it is ridiculous. The gentleman there? One
:15:07. > :15:08.economic thing I can tell you, unfettered capitalism, only one
:15:09. > :15:14.thing that will bring, they will look up the valleys and say, no
:15:15. > :15:20.coal, no population, Mr Tebbit, on your bike. That is what will happen,
:15:21. > :15:26.there will be decimated if we leave Europe. No workers' rights, no
:15:27. > :15:31.protection. Workers' rights, which the British government instilled
:15:32. > :15:38.long before we were in the EU. What about Magna Carta? Trade unions,
:15:39. > :15:44.right across Europe! Thank you very much. You are on the side of big
:15:45. > :15:49.business and the shareholders... Thank you, please. This will not
:15:50. > :16:01.work if we are all shouting, it won't work. Let's take the man with
:16:02. > :16:07.the checked shirt. Yes, we were in the ERM, the European Exchange
:16:08. > :16:12.Market. We came out in 92, the pound plunged and that was when the
:16:13. > :16:17.economy turned round. Every economist knows that. The gentleman
:16:18. > :16:23.there? Can I go on? This thing about expert has been going on and on.
:16:24. > :16:26.They want us to join the euro, those experts. None of them said we should
:16:27. > :16:31.come out of the ERM, they were wrong. Most of them said we should
:16:32. > :16:39.go into the euro, they were wrong. None of them... One more point, none
:16:40. > :16:45.of them saw the crash in 2008. Thank you, the gentleman just below has
:16:46. > :16:50.been waiting patiently. Lots of funding in Wales is being funded by
:16:51. > :16:58.the EU, what plans and strategies do you have if we are going to Brexit?
:16:59. > :17:01.There must be... A lot of us have said we will continue the same
:17:02. > :17:04.funding after Brexit. The reality is, when we voted to leave tomorrow,
:17:05. > :17:12.nothing is really going change immediately. It will take two years
:17:13. > :17:17.to renegotiate the deal is. All other deals in place will continue
:17:18. > :17:24.after tomorrow. It is our money, which is coming back to the valleys
:17:25. > :17:27.and everywhere else. Let's be realistic, that money comes from
:17:28. > :17:35.Brussels to Wales. If it goes via London, it will stay in a money box
:17:36. > :17:39.in London! John Redwood, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, we have been
:17:40. > :17:42.fighting for years to get a fair funding deal. I don't believe them
:17:43. > :17:49.as long as I can throw them, if I'm honest. At the end of the day, we
:17:50. > :17:54.benefit. This is the problem, the problem is... Please let the man
:17:55. > :18:00.speak. Nathan has identified this, there is a Lee vote on Friday, we
:18:01. > :18:06.get two years of uncertainty, minimum. On Friday, if we stay in
:18:07. > :18:10.the EU, the money still comes to Wales. We can still fund
:18:11. > :18:14.apprenticeships, we can still fund our farmers and they get access to
:18:15. > :18:18.the European market. If we leave, it is complete and utter uncertainty.
:18:19. > :18:21.That means nobody is going to invest in the country when there is that
:18:22. > :18:29.level of uncertainty. I come back to this point again, if you look at our
:18:30. > :18:33.major employers, they have all sent Brexit is bad. The Leave campaigners
:18:34. > :18:37.say they don't know what they are talking about, I think the people
:18:38. > :18:40.that employ thousands of people in Wales know what they are talking
:18:41. > :18:47.about. In terms of structural funds for poorer areas, we are essentially
:18:48. > :18:50.a country on EU benefits, your cases let's stay in the European Union to
:18:51. > :18:55.carry on claiming those benefits, rather than being a country that
:18:56. > :18:59.gets out to work, is that the appeal? I want Wales to be able to
:19:00. > :19:02.stand on its own two feet. I wanted to become an independent nation
:19:03. > :19:08.within the European family of nations. But I don't want that job
:19:09. > :19:11.of us improving our economy, getting more prosperity, to be made much
:19:12. > :19:15.more difficult than it needs to be already. We have already got a
:19:16. > :19:19.difficult job on our hands to bring our economy up to scratch, to make
:19:20. > :19:23.sure people in Wales have decent wages and are able to have a decent
:19:24. > :19:29.living. Let's not tire hands behind our backs and make it even more
:19:30. > :19:33.difficult by with drawing money available to us. There is an element
:19:34. > :19:36.of redistribution of wealth that the European Union carries out to try
:19:37. > :19:43.and lift the poorest nations and regions up to the level of everyone
:19:44. > :19:46.else. I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the Tories, the
:19:47. > :19:51.further right than the Tories, who would be taking control. That is who
:19:52. > :19:58.is going to be taken control if we leave the European Union. -- taking
:19:59. > :20:05.control. The differences you can throw us out, you can't throw out a
:20:06. > :20:08.EU Commissioner. You can't throughout the house of lords,
:20:09. > :20:13.either, Parliament is not fully elected. I have listened to several
:20:14. > :20:18.economists recently and I know it is a temptation to choose the ones that
:20:19. > :20:22.agree with your point of view. But I have spent half an hour listening to
:20:23. > :20:28.Michael Duggan, I think, a professor of economic law at Liverpool
:20:29. > :20:35.University. It was extremely interesting, what he was saying. All
:20:36. > :20:42.right, he more or less confirmed what my opinions are. You want to
:20:43. > :20:49.Remain? Most definitely. If I make this point, another economist that
:20:50. > :20:56.is trotted out is Patrick Minford of Cardiff University. This man was one
:20:57. > :21:02.of Mrs Thatcher's... We can't go through all of the economists, we
:21:03. > :21:06.would be here all day. After that debate, you were undecided, have you
:21:07. > :21:11.had any clarity at all? You don't have long left to decide. I will
:21:12. > :21:16.still reserve judgment come I want to find out what we are going to say
:21:17. > :21:21.about immigration, the next topic. On the economy, no clearer, still
:21:22. > :21:29.undecided? Well, that brings us neatly to the next question. This is
:21:30. > :21:35.from Liam Williams. I support giving the persecuted refuge and I agree
:21:36. > :21:40.with controlled immigration, but I think that immigration levels have
:21:41. > :21:44.got out of hand. Does the Remain campaign had any intention to
:21:45. > :21:51.control the numbers of people coming to the UK from the EU? Leanne Wood?
:21:52. > :22:02.Well, I am not sure what you mean by immigration getting out of hand.
:22:03. > :22:08.Well, if you look at the figures, in the 2011 census, 95% of people that
:22:09. > :22:12.live in Wales were born in the UK. Only 2.6% of our population come
:22:13. > :22:15.from within the European Union. I would like to take this opportunity
:22:16. > :22:19.to thank all of those people out there, all of those workers in our
:22:20. > :22:24.health service, all of those people that have opened up businesses in
:22:25. > :22:28.our communities, who employ people. Can I just say this, because I met a
:22:29. > :22:36.woman the other day, she is a concert pianist from Germany. Her
:22:37. > :22:39.two children are in local Welsh medium schools, her children have
:22:40. > :22:43.been asking her, if Wales pulled out of the European Union on Thursday,
:22:44. > :22:53.does that mean we have to live in Germany? Does it mean that she has
:22:54. > :23:01.to leave the country? The truth is, she can't answer her children. I am
:23:02. > :23:04.married to a Hungarian citizen, it is outrageous that the remain
:23:05. > :23:07.campaign have spread these stories to law-abiding, hard-working people
:23:08. > :23:12.from all over the world, telling them they might get thrown out. It
:23:13. > :23:17.is absolutely untrue. You can't guarantee there will stay! You have
:23:18. > :23:22.no idea. Switzerland, India, places in or out of the EU, it is nonsense,
:23:23. > :23:27.let's put that one too bad. I share some of your concerns. I would like
:23:28. > :23:30.to see more done to help the genuine persecuted, particularly women and
:23:31. > :23:34.children from minority groups within the Middle East that are being
:23:35. > :23:40.persecuted. I'm concerned that at the moment we are seeing
:23:41. > :23:43.uncontrolled migration of mainly young men, and I have been to
:23:44. > :23:52.immigration comes, it is mainly young men, not coming from Syria,
:23:53. > :23:56.but from a variety of countries. Is that why you put up that post? I
:23:57. > :24:01.think mainstream politicians should be able to raise this issue, raise
:24:02. > :24:05.the concern shared by 70 people, I am fed up with being called a racist
:24:06. > :24:11.by people in the Remain campaign for expressing that. -- shared by so
:24:12. > :24:18.many people. Can you guarantee that immigration would come down if
:24:19. > :24:23.Britain left the EU? What we have been advocating for a long time is
:24:24. > :24:28.an Australian style points -based system. Australia has higher
:24:29. > :24:32.immigration per head of population. If you, as a nation, want more
:24:33. > :24:35.people to come to your country, you use a points -based system, like
:24:36. > :24:41.Australia, to increase your population. That is what I just
:24:42. > :24:49.said, thank you for listening to me. If you want your population to
:24:50. > :24:53.remain stable or decrease, you can use it to do that. It is up to be
:24:54. > :24:57.Government to decide, unfortunately I am not in the Government, but what
:24:58. > :25:00.I can say is that our system, an Australian, points -based system,
:25:01. > :25:05.means the people that come here have the skills, the ability that we need
:25:06. > :25:09.and they will not depress wages, because it is supply and demand. If
:25:10. > :25:16.you have too much supply, wages will go down. Just on the poster, it has
:25:17. > :25:21.featured largely in the campaign, Nigel Farage's poster, were you
:25:22. > :25:24.proud of it? Listen, we're not the only people using posters with
:25:25. > :25:32.immigration on them, OK? This is your side, your people. That is an
:25:33. > :25:37.absolute disgrace, OK? The reality is, Project Fear, Project Doom And
:25:38. > :25:42.Gloom... It is a photograph that was used... Please can I ask about...
:25:43. > :25:47.I'm proud of our campaign, I'm proud of the fact that I am able to
:25:48. > :25:52.raise... What is wrong with it? It's a legitimate photograph that all of
:25:53. > :26:00.the newspapers are used. Are you being serious!? It has failed us
:26:01. > :26:10.all. Can I say something about this post? It is racist. No, that is a
:26:11. > :26:18.racist poster. It is comparable to what was being put out by the Nazis
:26:19. > :26:23.in 1930. Just put the two together, you can see the similarities. You
:26:24. > :26:30.defend the poster? It is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Thank you,
:26:31. > :26:34.Carwyn Jones, on the poster and the broader question of immigration? I
:26:35. > :26:37.think that the poster was stupid, and most of the Leave campaign have
:26:38. > :26:42.said so. They want nothing to do with it and that sums up the
:26:43. > :26:45.situation. The reality is that Australia is a country of
:26:46. > :26:50.immigrants, Switzerland has an immigration rate that is 2.5 times
:26:51. > :26:58.what ours is, and it's not even in the EU. It's nothing to do with the
:26:59. > :27:04.EU at all. 2.6% of the population, and what jobs are they doing? They
:27:05. > :27:12.are mainly young, fit and working, they don't draw from the NHS because
:27:13. > :27:19.of their age, they pay into it, they pay taxes. They are working in the
:27:20. > :27:23.NHS, working in the care sector, they are doing jobs that people find
:27:24. > :27:27.difficult to do, like the abattoirs, they employ a lot of people from
:27:28. > :27:30.outside the UK because they found it difficult to recruit locally. These
:27:31. > :27:35.are people that are contributing to our economy, I don't see any great
:27:36. > :27:41.difficulty in seeing them paying their taxes, paying into the coffers
:27:42. > :27:44.and paying into the NHS. I accept people think immigration is a big
:27:45. > :27:48.issue, if you look at the figures, it isn't. What is a big issue is job
:27:49. > :27:52.security. People feel they don't have job security, they don't
:27:53. > :27:55.pensions, they don't have permanent contracts, they have zero hour
:27:56. > :27:59.contracts and they feel something must be to blame. Immigrants are not
:28:00. > :28:06.to blame, it is the policies of the right-wing government and austerity.
:28:07. > :28:11.Should we have more immigration in Wales? 2.6% is about right. We are
:28:12. > :28:15.not seeing... What the Leave campaign would have you believe is
:28:16. > :28:21.that there are floods of people coming in, there are not. 40,000
:28:22. > :28:25.come out of 3 million people. And most of them are working and
:28:26. > :28:29.contributing to the economy. I don't mind where they come from, they are
:28:30. > :28:36.paying for our pensions. Let's go to the audience. I am an immigrant, I
:28:37. > :28:39.came from India about 20 years ago, I am an NHS doctor. I think I have
:28:40. > :28:43.made a significant contribution to this country. What you're talking
:28:44. > :28:47.about when you talk about a points system dehumanises me, it makes me
:28:48. > :28:51.an object, it makes me a highly skilled object with high points so I
:28:52. > :28:58.can come in, somebody that does not have that can not come in. Countries
:28:59. > :29:04.all over the world use this. It is not, it is just Australia, you are
:29:05. > :29:14.dehumanising a large chunk of the population. I am married to an
:29:15. > :29:18.immigrant, my sister-in-law is an immigrant. But we cannot have an
:29:19. > :29:24.open door system, where anyone who wants to can just walk in, and that
:29:25. > :29:33.is what we have got at the moment. Nathan Gill, thank you. Lady in the
:29:34. > :29:38.red shirt. I am a migrant worker from the EU, and I'm also a member
:29:39. > :29:41.of the Trade Union And Socialist Coalition, I don't have an issue
:29:42. > :29:44.with immigrants come I do have an issue with employers using people
:29:45. > :29:50.from abroad as cheap labour and paying them less than the minimum
:29:51. > :29:54.wage, according to EU rules. According to something called the
:29:55. > :29:58.Posted Workers Directive, that I want to get rid of, and is one of
:29:59. > :29:59.the reasons I want to leave, because the free movement of people is
:30:00. > :30:12.abused to have cheap labour. I share your concerns and I would
:30:13. > :30:16.reject the Posted Workers Directive I would want to see a strengthening
:30:17. > :30:22.of trade Unions, a rising of the minimum wage, a proper living wage.
:30:23. > :30:25.The reason wages have been squeezed and workers' rights have been
:30:26. > :30:29.withdrawn or reduced in recent years is to do with the reduction in the
:30:30. > :30:33.strength of trade unions over many years. We could overcome those
:30:34. > :30:41.problems without pulling out of the EU. We could lose the working Time
:30:42. > :30:44.directive potentially. I have no faith in these right-wing
:30:45. > :30:51.politicians to protect... Thank you very much. It is clearly not the
:30:52. > :30:55.case that anyone can walk into this country, that is why we have all of
:30:56. > :30:59.those people in Calais. If they could just walk in, they would be
:31:00. > :31:07.here right now. It is right we have passport control. It is clearly
:31:08. > :31:14.wrong to say that anybody can walk in. It is just sheer scaremongering.
:31:15. > :31:22.We know that people are coming to the UK, they woke up and contribute,
:31:23. > :31:27.and they do need to contribute, of course, and they pay into our
:31:28. > :31:30.system. To say that somehow anybody can walk into the UK defies logic
:31:31. > :31:36.because it is obvious that is not the case. The question is, would you
:31:37. > :31:39.agree, because I agree that people should contribute but you said
:31:40. > :31:43.nobody should have a free ride but would you agree that anybody coming
:31:44. > :31:48.over and just claiming benefits and breaking the law should be chucked
:31:49. > :31:52.out? I think that is reasonable. But we can't do that while we are in the
:31:53. > :32:03.EU, we would have to pull out to do that. Can I ask you, on the issue of
:32:04. > :32:08.the reforms offered by David Cameron in Brussels, you are on the same
:32:09. > :32:14.side as him, are you confident that he will deliver those? 27 countries
:32:15. > :32:18.still have the rubber-stamp them. Not if we leave coming will not
:32:19. > :32:22.deliver, if we stay I think he will deliver. People understand their
:32:23. > :32:28.needs to be reform in the EU will stop that is perfectly reasonable.
:32:29. > :32:31.It is reasonable to assume that an agreement reached in principle will
:32:32. > :32:41.be carried through. So he negotiated a good deal? I think he has taken it
:32:42. > :32:44.forward in terms of the EU. It is important that the EU recognises
:32:45. > :32:49.that it has to change, it cannot stay the same for ever. It does
:32:50. > :32:53.wrestle with problems it needs to address but from my perspective,
:32:54. > :32:58.there is a lot wrong with the UK but I wouldn't leave it. It is important
:32:59. > :33:02.to stay in and reform. We are in the Euros, we have been shouting in the
:33:03. > :33:06.crowd for 58 years, we have not been influencing what has been happening
:33:07. > :33:09.and the same thing happen if we left the EU, we would be in the crowd
:33:10. > :33:18.shouting, not on the pitch playing and that is what I want Britain to
:33:19. > :33:21.be doing. Let's take a few points. There is a flip side to immigration
:33:22. > :33:27.that doesn't get discussed. Currently there are 1.4 million
:33:28. > :33:32.Brits living in Europe. If we left the European Union and they were to
:33:33. > :33:38.come back home, that would have a negative impact on our economy and
:33:39. > :33:47.local councils would suffer. And the gentleman in the blue? You quoted
:33:48. > :33:52.net migration. 330 3000. As a percentage of how much of that is
:33:53. > :33:56.non-EU controlled or migration? It's about 50%. But don't forget that a
:33:57. > :34:01.lot of people migrating into the EU from outside are being given EU
:34:02. > :34:07.passports. And what has your government done to control that? You
:34:08. > :34:11.do agree that half of our migration can actually be controlled? Probably
:34:12. > :34:15.more than that. If we pull out we would be able to control the number
:34:16. > :34:22.of people coming in from outside and we would not have is people coming
:34:23. > :34:28.in illegally from other countries and being given EU passports. Do you
:34:29. > :34:32.acknowledge that your government could control 50% of it now? I would
:34:33. > :34:36.acknowledge that the government could do a lot more than they are
:34:37. > :34:43.and they should. And if the French authorities withdrew their policing
:34:44. > :34:45.of Calais? First of all it would be crazy for them to do that because of
:34:46. > :34:49.trying to stop people going to Calais in the first place and the
:34:50. > :34:52.one thing that would attract them would be if the French decided to
:34:53. > :35:01.try to stop those border controls. But you have no idea really. You are
:35:02. > :35:04.trying to defend something that is indefensible which is an open door
:35:05. > :35:12.immigration policy. It is not an open door policy. What numbers would
:35:13. > :35:20.you like? What is manageable? I want a functioning Welsh economy. Answer
:35:21. > :35:26.the question. This is not going to work if we are just shouting at each
:35:27. > :35:38.other. The gentleman waiting patiently. This young lady asked a
:35:39. > :35:45.question about ten minutes ago and is a typical politician, she didn't
:35:46. > :35:49.bother to answer, she went off on this load of trouble. I disagreed on
:35:50. > :35:54.the premise of the question. Can you remember it? She asked if
:35:55. > :36:06.immigration was out of control and I said I didn't think it was. The
:36:07. > :36:10.gentleman behind her. We have had the question, sir. Politicians don't
:36:11. > :36:17.always answer I'm afraid! The gentleman behind. Leanne Wood must
:36:18. > :36:20.be able to in the wilderness because I have called over eight or nine
:36:21. > :36:23.years as a market researcher, thousands of homes in the Welsh
:36:24. > :36:29.valleys. I can tell you now that people, the most important thing
:36:30. > :36:34.they come up with is immigration. Leanne Wood has heard that time and
:36:35. > :36:37.time again and she is trying to pretend that people are not
:36:38. > :36:46.interested in it but they are. That is the major issue in the Welsh
:36:47. > :36:50.valleys. The numbers of 2.6 aw... They don't matter. I have never said
:36:51. > :36:56.that people are not concerned about immigration, they are, I would
:36:57. > :37:00.acknowledge that. People are very angry, angry because their wages
:37:01. > :37:04.have been depressed, because they have lost many local public
:37:05. > :37:09.services, but what I would say to all of those people who express that
:37:10. > :37:13.anger, don't blame the people who are already exploited, blamed the
:37:14. > :37:19.elite, blame the establishment, blame the people you are causing
:37:20. > :37:29.your problems. The gentleman with the glasses. In my opinion, there is
:37:30. > :37:34.a big problem in the sleeve's policy on immigration and it relates to
:37:35. > :37:38.Northern Ireland -- Vote Leave. On the one hand they say that we don't
:37:39. > :37:42.need to reinstate the Bourdy between the Republic and the North but on
:37:43. > :37:46.the other hand you want to control immigration. The EU is not just to
:37:47. > :37:53.the east of the UK, it is also the Republic of Ireland so how will that
:37:54. > :37:57.work? They seem mutually exclusive. There are about 50 odd countries in
:37:58. > :38:04.the world ranging from Chile, Dominica, Saint Lucia, places I have
:38:05. > :38:09.never even heard of, who has Visa free access to the EU where they can
:38:10. > :38:16.come and read anywhere. Why would we not allow Ireland, our neighbour for
:38:17. > :38:27.hundreds of years... You want to close the borders. We can have Visa
:38:28. > :38:31.free access. The lady in front. The Leave campaign are talking about
:38:32. > :38:35.Project Fear but what about the fear in the ethnic minority groups and
:38:36. > :38:41.those of mixed race. I am a quarter Chinese and 23 and I have never met
:38:42. > :38:48.my Chinese ancestors apart from my dad because they were all born in
:38:49. > :38:51.the UK. I have never received so much racism is what I have since
:38:52. > :38:56.that pain has been going on. They had been spat at and told to go back
:38:57. > :39:02.to my own country. I was born in the UK. I think that is absolutely
:39:03. > :39:06.appalling. My sister-in-law is Chinese. I had a mixed-race nephew
:39:07. > :39:14.and I think anybody who picks on somebody because of their skin or
:39:15. > :39:17.their ethnicity is the on contempt. I would not work with anybody who
:39:18. > :39:22.took that attitude. It is your campaigners. My family are like the
:39:23. > :39:27.United Nations, you would not know it to look at me! I don't see any
:39:28. > :39:30.problem with saying, we have to be able to control migration into the
:39:31. > :39:34.UK from anywhere in the world and it is also reasonable to say that if
:39:35. > :39:37.people are coming into our country, we should expect all people coming
:39:38. > :39:43.here to learn the language and be prepared to work and not break the
:39:44. > :39:47.law. To respect the culture of the country. Just as I respect the
:39:48. > :39:53.culture of the Chinese and everybody else. Nathan Gill. I completely
:39:54. > :39:59.concur with everything you have just said. The reality is, I never joined
:40:00. > :40:02.Ukip because I was concerned about immigration, I joined because I
:40:03. > :40:05.wanted my nation to get its independence back, for us to be a
:40:06. > :40:12.free nation where we could make our own laws once again and that we
:40:13. > :40:15.defended the democracy that my grandfathers and great grandfathers
:40:16. > :40:21.fought for in two world wars. That is what it is all about. It is not
:40:22. > :40:25.about immigration, how much money we descend to Europe, it is genuinely
:40:26. > :40:33.about the democracy of this nation -- we send. Carwyn Jones. I worry
:40:34. > :40:37.when you talk about what happened in the walls. After the Second World
:40:38. > :40:41.War, people wanted peace in Europe. Churchill was one of the first
:40:42. > :40:45.advocate of a European Union. He did not want to run a wave. Before the
:40:46. > :40:52.war he wanted the UK and France to be one state -- run away. The reason
:40:53. > :40:55.the generation after the war want closer cooperation is because they
:40:56. > :41:01.remembered Europe in complex and that is the last thing we want. The
:41:02. > :41:05.idea that our democracy is under threat is plainly wrong. An example
:41:06. > :41:08.of where the EU has created peace. Northern Ireland, if it was not for
:41:09. > :41:15.the EU, there would not have been a peace process. I know Northern
:41:16. > :41:20.Ireland, it gave the opportunity for barriers to be broken down, people
:41:21. > :41:24.did not feel one side or the other, they could share a common identity
:41:25. > :41:27.and if we don't have that there are serious issues about the way people
:41:28. > :41:35.look at themselves in Northern Ireland. Thank you. This has been a
:41:36. > :41:40.very lively and at times pretty bad tempered debate. That brings us to
:41:41. > :41:48.our next question which is from Linda. Can I say, as an immigrant
:41:49. > :41:53.into this country, the rhetoric coming from this site, I feel quite
:41:54. > :42:00.intimidated sitting here, can utopia down a bit? You are sitting there
:42:01. > :42:05.full of anger -- can you tone it down. I come from a border town in
:42:06. > :42:13.Ireland and I know what it's like. Thank you. Do you think your
:42:14. > :42:17.campaigns have been a success, there are a couple parts to this question,
:42:18. > :42:23.do you think your campaigns have been a success and are you confident
:42:24. > :42:29.that the rhetoric used to convince voters to leave or remain in the EU
:42:30. > :42:33.has had a positive impact? And do you think that this referendum has
:42:34. > :42:40.left the political debate in Wales worse off because we are talking
:42:41. > :42:44.about Wales? Nathan Gill. Basically, we have definitely got momentum on
:42:45. > :42:48.our side in the campaign, it started pretty low-key because we had just
:42:49. > :42:53.come out of a Welsh Assembly election but over the last two and a
:42:54. > :42:57.half, three weeks, we have felt things starting to gather. Anybody
:42:58. > :43:00.who has been out campaigning will have seen a huge swell up public
:43:01. > :43:08.support for our side of the argument. With regard to rhetoric,
:43:09. > :43:12.the rhetoric of Ukip all along has been to believe in Britain. That has
:43:13. > :43:18.been our mantra. Have you always got the tone right? Well, in this
:43:19. > :43:23.debate, things get heated, we are passionate people. I have been doing
:43:24. > :43:28.this for 12 years and we have finally got a referendum. David has
:43:29. > :43:32.been doing it for 20 years, Nigel Farage 425 years, of course we will
:43:33. > :43:36.be passionate. Regardless of how it goes tomorrow, there will be highs
:43:37. > :43:40.and lows because we believe so passionately in this. This is your
:43:41. > :43:45.cup final tomorrow, your biggest game, if you lose, what happens to
:43:46. > :43:52.you and your party? How can ask me such a question? We will find out on
:43:53. > :43:59.Friday. Carwyn Jones, the tone of the campaign? I think the tone in
:44:00. > :44:05.London has been pretty bad on both sides. We have seen weeks and weeks
:44:06. > :44:08.of poison. I think there will be a huge amount of work to be done to
:44:09. > :44:13.reunite people in Wales and in Britain and I think quite often the
:44:14. > :44:16.facts have been lost in abuse between Conservative politicians.
:44:17. > :44:21.How can there be a Conservative Party after you see their prominent
:44:22. > :44:25.members calling each other liars in public? That is the issue.
:44:26. > :44:33.Were you later to the party? That's a fair point, I said to David
:44:34. > :44:40.Cameron, why are you having an election six months after an
:44:41. > :44:44.election? I hope I never see a referendum campaign with this, with
:44:45. > :44:49.so much poison and vitriol. We have to take a hard look at ourselves.
:44:50. > :44:52.Are we going to be a sour, paranoid country after Friday or, whatever
:44:53. > :44:56.the result, will we come together and make sure the kind of abuse,
:44:57. > :44:58.physical abuse, the kind of verbal abuse, is never witnessed again in
:44:59. > :45:12.Wales or Britain? I find myself agreeing with Carwyn,
:45:13. > :45:19.but people that have been shouting out words like Nazis have been the
:45:20. > :45:23.Remainer Mass. It's been a campaign of negativity, how we will see the
:45:24. > :45:25.end of civilisation, the collapse of the economy, house prices and the
:45:26. > :45:33.rest of it. Nathan, high, all of us on the side, we've been up
:45:34. > :45:45.against a powerful government machine. It's been a beauty contest,
:45:46. > :45:49.hasn't it? The polls suggest it hangs on a knife edge. Whatever
:45:50. > :45:52.happens, we will know whether the campaign has been a success when we
:45:53. > :45:55.get the result, whatever happens, I think we have delivered a huge
:45:56. > :46:02.wake-up call to the elite in Brussels, people like the head of
:46:03. > :46:07.Serco, the biggest outsourcer in the NHS, how a socialist light you can
:46:08. > :46:12.stand next to somebody promoting the privatisation of the NHS, I don't
:46:13. > :46:15.know. -- a socialist like you. Any of you guys, how you can be
:46:16. > :46:20.supporting big business in saying that we should be staying, it
:46:21. > :46:24.beggars belief. I am on the conservative side of small
:46:25. > :46:29.businesses who believe in freedom and democracy. I've been active in
:46:30. > :46:32.politics for 25 years. I have never been involved or come across a
:46:33. > :46:37.campaign that has been so filled with hate in all my time in
:46:38. > :46:48.politics. I have to say, the lies have come from the Leave side, on
:46:49. > :46:52.the leaflets, on the poster, or the bus. Will you just let me finish my
:46:53. > :47:01.point, please? You've shouted the whole time. They want to hear what
:47:02. > :47:07.positions... You keep doing it. I want to develop politics in Wales, a
:47:08. > :47:11.society where people can cooperate and work together. We are going to
:47:12. > :47:16.have a big job of patching things up after the selection. This campaign
:47:17. > :47:20.has divided communities and has brought the worst kind of poison and
:47:21. > :47:24.the worst kind of politics out in people. Is that why you have taken a
:47:25. > :47:29.back-seat as a party? You have not been front and centre of the
:47:30. > :47:35.campaign. This has been a Tory and Tory, on right fight.
:47:36. > :47:41.Could you have done more, played a bigger role? My party has worked
:47:42. > :47:46.very hard on this campaign. We have had a matter of a Welsh election,
:47:47. > :47:51.which took us up into the beginning of May, and the aftermath of that.
:47:52. > :47:58.We did warn that it was going to be difficult in Wales for us to fight a
:47:59. > :48:01.proper campaign on this. You have not had a proper campaign? I
:48:02. > :48:04.wouldn't say that, we have done what we can within the constraints we
:48:05. > :48:12.have had, but we have been fighting real bile. I hope when this is out
:48:13. > :48:15.of the way, we can build a nation where people can cooperate and live
:48:16. > :48:20.together without racism and hatred. A view points from the audience. The
:48:21. > :48:25.gentleman with the beard? Leanne, if we were like you want, to become an
:48:26. > :48:31.independent Wales, what would even be the point if we were still in the
:48:32. > :48:37.European Union? Still told what to do, what would be the point of
:48:38. > :48:44.becoming independent? My position on Welsh independence is the opposite
:48:45. > :48:48.to these boys's position on the UK being independent. I don't want to
:48:49. > :48:53.pull up the drawbridge. I want to cooperate with other countries in
:48:54. > :48:57.the world, I don't want to be an isolationist, in an isolationist
:48:58. > :49:02.position. I think Wales has a great contribution to play, not just in
:49:03. > :49:06.the European Union but in the world. It is people in Scotland that want
:49:07. > :49:10.independence for Scotland, they are in favour of remaining in the
:49:11. > :49:16.European Union as well. It is not an unusual place to be. The gentleman
:49:17. > :49:21.next door? The initial question was about the rhetoric and the tone, and
:49:22. > :49:29.it was quite dismaying, when Leanne used the opportunity to call us
:49:30. > :49:32.hateful liars. We are the group of hope, we are saying we succeed
:49:33. > :49:36.outside the EU. They are saying we have to bend the knee to Brussels
:49:37. > :49:40.because Britain cannot survive alone. I say that is rubbish. We are
:49:41. > :49:44.one of the best countries in the world, one of the proudest histories
:49:45. > :49:55.in the world and we can stand on our own two feet. Asked people in
:49:56. > :50:00.France, Germany, across Europe, what is the point of being French or
:50:01. > :50:12.German? Let's set up that table, let's lead, let's not surrender,
:50:13. > :50:17.let's lead Europe to a better place. Colin Jones, yesterday you said if
:50:18. > :50:21.it were a Leave vote, you would negotiate directly with Brussels.
:50:22. > :50:26.What did you mean? You can see people do not think that Wales has
:50:27. > :50:37.that right, they laugh at the very idea of Wales. If there is a Leave
:50:38. > :50:42.vote, regardless of what Wales does, there will still be a need to get
:50:43. > :50:48.the best deal for Wales. I don't trust the Tories to get it for us.
:50:49. > :50:54.Of Wales votes to leave, you can't do that? If the UK boats to leave...
:50:55. > :50:57.What if Wales does? From our perspective, we will have to say to
:50:58. > :51:02.the people of Wales, we hear what you say and there is a job to do to
:51:03. > :51:07.make sure that the people of Wales see the benefit of the union. If the
:51:08. > :51:11.UK wants to leave, whether Wales wants to remain or leave, there will
:51:12. > :51:20.still be a need for a Welsh voice in negotiations. On that point? Is
:51:21. > :51:27.interesting that Carwyn is saying that he will go and negotiate if the
:51:28. > :51:32.UK boats to leave, but what if Wales votes to leave and the rest of the
:51:33. > :51:35.UK boats to stay? Will he go and negotiate Wales leaving the European
:51:36. > :51:41.Union? If so, I would be happy to give him a hand. I'd like to go back
:51:42. > :51:45.to one point that Leanne brought up, independence, it is the same in both
:51:46. > :51:48.languages, look it up in the dictionary, it means standing on
:51:49. > :51:53.your own two feet, make your own laws, paying your own way in the
:51:54. > :51:58.world. If you want Wales to be independent, if that is what Plaid
:51:59. > :52:01.Cymru are saying, you are giving an oxymoron to your supporters by
:52:02. > :52:10.saying you can be independent inside the EU. It cannot and will not ever
:52:11. > :52:14.be a reality. There are very few countries in the world that are
:52:15. > :52:22.completely independent. America, China, Japan, South Korea? Let her
:52:23. > :52:26.answer, please. There are countries that are independent all over the
:52:27. > :52:30.world, but very interdependent on each other as well. They were gunned
:52:31. > :52:35.cooperate together and that is what we want for Wales. We want Wales to
:52:36. > :52:44.take our place within that family of nations, to be progressive, learn
:52:45. > :52:48.from others, to work with others who are multilingual, rather than
:52:49. > :52:52.isolate ourselves. You just want to replace Westminster
:52:53. > :53:00.-- you want to replace Westminster with Brussels. I think they are
:53:01. > :53:04.tying themselves in knots, you believe in independence or not. I
:53:05. > :53:10.believe in independence for the United Kingdom... What about for
:53:11. > :53:14.Wales? It will be independent from a bunch of bureaucrats that will never
:53:15. > :53:18.knock on anybody's door asking them anything. It is taken control of
:53:19. > :53:24.borders, deciding our own immigration policy, taking control
:53:25. > :53:28.of the people that make the laws for us in this country. What do you say
:53:29. > :53:34.to people watching at home that are still confused and worried that it
:53:35. > :53:38.would be a leap in the dark? I would say, believe in Britain, believe in
:53:39. > :53:41.ourselves. The fifth biggest economy in the world, the seventh biggest
:53:42. > :53:45.manufacturing nation in the whole world. Ask yourselves this, we all
:53:46. > :53:49.know, whether we like it or not, there is a Conservative Government,
:53:50. > :53:55.David Cameron is the Prime Minister, who knows which party is running the
:53:56. > :53:59.European Parliament? Nobody does. If you don't even know who is making
:54:00. > :54:03.the decisions, you have no chance of putting them out. The important
:54:04. > :54:06.thing is that we have control over our politicians. It is not the money
:54:07. > :54:09.and immigration, it is that we control the people that make the
:54:10. > :54:13.laws in the country, they have to knock on the door and asked for your
:54:14. > :54:17.vote, and if they can't deliver, they get kicked out. That is
:54:18. > :54:28.democracy and why we should vote for independence. Briefly, David Davies,
:54:29. > :54:33.if David Cameron loses, does he resign? You would have to ask him,
:54:34. > :54:36.I'm happy for him to remain as Prime Minister, take us out of the
:54:37. > :54:40.European Union and get that deal for Britain he was not able to get a few
:54:41. > :54:51.months ago. Only a few hours to go until the vote. Let's have closing
:54:52. > :54:56.thoughts. This is going to be the very first time in our nation's
:54:57. > :55:00.history where we can protect and defend, bring back our democracy and
:55:01. > :55:05.our sovereignty without having to go to war. We can do it at the ballot
:55:06. > :55:10.box. Tomorrow is the most important vote you will ever make in your life
:55:11. > :55:15.and if we get it wrong, if we vote to Remain, we will be stuck in that
:55:16. > :55:19.club for ever. Vote for our freedom and independence, make sure that you
:55:20. > :55:24.believe in Britain the way that I do and I believe in Wales and I know
:55:25. > :55:34.that we can, as a nation, stand on our own two feet. Leanne Wood? Wales
:55:35. > :55:38.can be great, Wales can be a fantastic success. You only have to
:55:39. > :55:43.look at what our football team did this week, on a European stage, to
:55:44. > :55:47.show what we can do. But not if those powers are taken from Brussels
:55:48. > :55:52.and concentrated in Westminster will stop that would be to Wales's
:55:53. > :55:57.detriment. Both of us are united in saying it is in Wales's best
:55:58. > :56:01.interests to remain in the European Union. Do not take the gamble, don't
:56:02. > :56:10.take the chance, vote Remain tomorrow. David Davies? You have
:56:11. > :56:14.heard from Remain, it is a negative vision, it is based on insults,
:56:15. > :56:19.calling us liars, Nazis, boys, whatever it is. It is a vision of a
:56:20. > :56:23.ever closer union, a federal European superstate run by unelected
:56:24. > :56:27.commissioners who will be influenced by the vested interests of big
:56:28. > :56:33.business, a big NGO, who ever can get into Brussels and lobby. Our
:56:34. > :56:36.vision is of an outward looking Wales, and outward looking Britain
:56:37. > :56:41.trading with the whole world, good relationships with the whole world,
:56:42. > :56:45.doing business with the world. Carwyn Jones? So many of the
:56:46. > :56:51.arguments they deployed in their favour arguments they used to deny
:56:52. > :56:58.powers to Wales, to concentrate powers in London. I want to see the
:56:59. > :57:02.politics of Hope triumph over the politics of hate, I want to live in
:57:03. > :57:07.a bright, confident country that works with other countries that
:57:08. > :57:12.share our values, ones that fear the global threat of terrorism and does
:57:13. > :57:16.not run away with it and put its head in the sand. Freedom,
:57:17. > :57:26.tolerance, democracy and justice, that is my country and I wandered
:57:27. > :57:34.back. -- I want it back. The debate is at an end, but it continues on
:57:35. > :57:37.social media. There is a debate on S4C tonight at 9:30pm. The polls
:57:38. > :57:40.open at 7am, over to you. Goodbye.