:00:12. > :00:17.All June 23 people in the north-east and Cumbria will make a historic
:00:18. > :00:21.decision, should Britain leave the European Union or choose to remain?
:00:22. > :00:26.Vermont's campaigners on both sides have been waging war on how the
:00:27. > :00:30.result of a referendum could have an impact on jobs, trade and
:00:31. > :00:34.immigration. Claims for example that carmaking in the north-east could be
:00:35. > :00:39.damaged by leaving the EU, disputed by those who think a Brexit vote
:00:40. > :00:41.could help businesses find new markets. In brother is debate over
:00:42. > :00:53.whether businesses are tonight with a panel and audience we
:00:54. > :00:56.look at the impact on people living here. Are we better end or out of
:00:57. > :01:07.the EU? Welcome to Look North's
:01:08. > :01:14.EU referendum debate. I have an audience with me
:01:15. > :01:17.from right across the region, armed with questions
:01:18. > :01:27.and points they want to make to the right we have people who
:01:28. > :01:28.would prefer to remain within the EU, to the left people who would
:01:29. > :01:31.like to Leave. You can join in the discussion
:01:32. > :01:34.on Twitter using #EUrefLookNorth. Our political editor Richard Moss
:01:35. > :01:38.is chairing our panel. It's from Brian Dennis
:01:39. > :01:47.from Teesside. I lost my job at SSI,
:01:48. > :01:51.along with thousands of others. The reasons that were given to me
:01:52. > :01:54.why the Government could not help us Can someone please explain to me why
:01:55. > :02:10.staying in the EU is good for jobs? When on Teesside 5000 people are
:02:11. > :02:15.looking for work? Kevin Maguire, your newspaper has supported the
:02:16. > :02:18.Remain campaign, but here we have a concrete example of someone
:02:19. > :02:24.believing that EU rules got in the way of saving around 3000 jobs. We
:02:25. > :02:27.campaigned hard at the daily Mirror to save the Redcar and the rest of
:02:28. > :02:33.the steel industry and don't buy that it was the European Union which
:02:34. > :02:37.shot red card. It was an act of industrial vandalism which will
:02:38. > :02:44.devastate that area of Teesside. Anne Marie's government would not
:02:45. > :02:48.keep the oven is going to get a new buyer. On top of that that
:02:49. > :02:51.government is in thrall to the Chinese because they want Chinese
:02:52. > :02:56.money to build nuclear power stations. So they would not back
:02:57. > :03:02.European Commission attempts to raise tariffs on Chinese steel
:03:03. > :03:07.coming into Britain. We can blame Brussels and the European
:03:08. > :03:11.Commission. It didn't affect what happened in Redcar. There are things
:03:12. > :03:16.the government could have done, it could have cut the cost of energy
:03:17. > :03:21.for steel, it could have cut the business rates but they didn't. They
:03:22. > :03:24.could have bought more British deal which they didn't. Warships have
:03:25. > :03:29.been made in Britain for the Royal Navy but they don't have British
:03:30. > :03:36.Steel, that's why that plant went. It is up to you to defend the
:03:37. > :03:39.government on this particular issue, it's a wider point that, the last
:03:40. > :03:43.thing that Teesside needs after that shot is more job shocks and that the
:03:44. > :03:49.allegation from Leave, that it will leave to the loss of more jobs? In
:03:50. > :03:55.terms of steel, it's something that I battled with several years ago
:03:56. > :03:58.with the aluminium factory in my constituency where the changes to
:03:59. > :04:03.high energy industries brought into an EU directive meant that it just
:04:04. > :04:08.put them out of business. That happens not only in aluminium but it
:04:09. > :04:13.had already then started to have an impact on steel, this high energy
:04:14. > :04:16.cost. That is something I have stood up to the Chancellor about and said
:04:17. > :04:24.I felt that was something we should be doing to reduce so that we could
:04:25. > :04:31.help our high energy industries. They then move out of the UK or the
:04:32. > :04:37.EU. These things are in control of the UK Government. Anna Soubry said
:04:38. > :04:41.state aid rules make it difficult. If you look at the referendum in
:04:42. > :04:44.terms of jobs, do you want to work within the directive set by the EU
:04:45. > :04:49.which may or may not help your business, for some businesses the EU
:04:50. > :04:53.directives are very helpful but in a lot of the cases of smaller
:04:54. > :04:57.businesses and in the high energy industry directive, it's going
:04:58. > :05:01.against what we might want to do so for me the better choice is to step
:05:02. > :05:04.out of the EU and take control of those decisions and thought in
:05:05. > :05:08.people or out people who make decisions that you want. At the
:05:09. > :05:11.moment it makes very little difference if you put me in or out
:05:12. > :05:18.because so many of these decisions are taken by people out with. Can I
:05:19. > :05:23.just ask, it is your job we are talking about and the jobs of many
:05:24. > :05:27.others, what are your opinions? My opinion is that the government is
:05:28. > :05:31.hiding behind European state aid rules. They could have chose to
:05:32. > :05:36.help, they have decided they will help people in Wales and Scunthorpe,
:05:37. > :05:40.the same rules apply yet I want the government which will stand up to
:05:41. > :05:44.Europe or if we are out we will make our own decisions. Once we make our
:05:45. > :05:49.own decisions that falls squarely on the shoulders, nobody to hide
:05:50. > :05:52.behind, if we are out we are better off. We want a government which done
:05:53. > :05:57.supper Britain but that is in London, not Brussels will stop the
:05:58. > :06:00.can fight for the steel industry when they want but they didn't feel
:06:01. > :06:06.it was worth fighting for those jobs in Redcar. You grew up in
:06:07. > :06:14.Middlesbrough win the steel industry was healthier than it is now. Yes, I
:06:15. > :06:19.have been up to Redcar many times. Of course the EU was not to blame,
:06:20. > :06:23.it was something that the government, your party head behind
:06:24. > :06:31.in order to take no action whatsoever. Kevin Maguire is
:06:32. > :06:36.absolutely right. On jobs, why should Brian and people looking for
:06:37. > :06:40.a job the better outside the EU? There are a couple of more subtle
:06:41. > :06:44.points, the EU does not look kindly upon protectionism and I look more
:06:45. > :06:48.kindly upon that. I think we need to protect jobs in our own country but
:06:49. > :06:53.nonetheless it's quite clear that in this particular case it was the
:06:54. > :06:59.government, solely the government to blame and not the EU because they
:07:00. > :07:03.were able to go ahead and take part ownership of other steelworks
:07:04. > :07:07.elsewhere. It's a red herring. In terms of the general picture of
:07:08. > :07:11.jobs, I have no doubt whatsoever that membership of the EU has
:07:12. > :07:15.lowered the wage rates for the poorest people in this country. I
:07:16. > :07:20.have no question at all about that, it simply has. It's almost
:07:21. > :07:25.incontestable. But on that strict issue of what happened at Redcar, it
:07:26. > :07:30.was down to the Conservative government and the Conservative
:07:31. > :07:35.government lying effectively. I am sure you would see much of the same
:07:36. > :07:39.things but let's deal with the arguments about jobs in particular,
:07:40. > :07:44.has the remain campaign overplayed its hand about jobs? There might be
:07:45. > :07:50.an economic shock short-term but what about long-term consequences? I
:07:51. > :07:54.grew up in Newcastle in the 70s and 80s in a heavily industrialised
:07:55. > :07:57.North East and even now after a number of Conservative governments
:07:58. > :08:02.we are still our manufacturing region, the only region which
:08:03. > :08:06.exports more than it imports. 58% of those exports go to Europe and I
:08:07. > :08:11.want our businesses to have access to 500 million people for the great
:08:12. > :08:20.services and goods they can build and export. I know... I would doubt
:08:21. > :08:23.trade figures recently and it is 58% of the EU, but the proportion of
:08:24. > :08:27.trade to other parts of the world has fallen which doesn't suggest all
:08:28. > :08:32.these trade deals are doing north-east businesses that good,
:08:33. > :08:37.with America and Asia? We have global economy and the shocks to the
:08:38. > :08:41.global economy, we have, with Europe, we have 500 million people
:08:42. > :08:46.who are also helping us arrange trade deals with other countries
:08:47. > :08:50.which are growing. I think it's important we have small businesses
:08:51. > :08:55.in the north-east who are trying to grow and build new jobs and the need
:08:56. > :08:59.to be protected as we were talking about. Competition rules in the
:09:00. > :09:05.European Union help small businesses to grow, that's why the EU can take
:09:06. > :09:10.on Google and Microsoft which are small businesses need their help and
:09:11. > :09:16.support. Quite a few members of the audience wanting to come in,
:09:17. > :09:20.gentlemen in the green T-shirt. The point is, you are making about
:09:21. > :09:25.exports, all this nonsense about relying on exports to the EU, we
:09:26. > :09:29.import far more from the EU than we export to them. Last year and for
:09:30. > :09:35.the last three years we have had a balance of payments deficit of over
:09:36. > :09:38.?70 billion. At that rate it is not sustainable, we will become bankrupt
:09:39. > :09:42.through debt just because of the imports we are importing. It's much
:09:43. > :09:49.better to favour local businesses like on Teesside and the only way
:09:50. > :09:53.the government can do that is to get out of the EU procurement rules. If
:09:54. > :10:01.I can just take this to the other side for other reasons. I only
:10:02. > :10:06.employs 35 people but five of them I can put much guarantee are dependent
:10:07. > :10:09.on trade with European companies. So if you multiply my business out
:10:10. > :10:13.across thousands in the north-east I know their jobs will at risk. I'm
:10:14. > :10:17.not saying they will go but they will be at risk and I don't want to
:10:18. > :10:22.take that chance. I don't think I want those five people to be at risk
:10:23. > :10:28.either. We are talking about a very meaty issues here in the north-east
:10:29. > :10:33.and Cumbria, what is the point you wanted to make? Talking about the
:10:34. > :10:38.common market, the EU, what I am saying is that when I grew up and
:10:39. > :10:45.went to school and started work, what I, my government of my day said
:10:46. > :10:55.we export order we did to the world. Not the EU. To the world. That gets
:10:56. > :10:59.you jobs. Thank you very much. I agree entirely that we should be
:11:00. > :11:07.exporting to the world but the fact is we are and are exporting to the
:11:08. > :11:12.EU as well. Exports to the EU are 30% of our GDP, 4% of the European
:11:13. > :11:17.Union's GDP so the idea we will be in a strong position to get some
:11:18. > :11:25.kind of special deal when we have left the EU, I don't think that
:11:26. > :11:30.makes sense. You are here, businesses talking about
:11:31. > :11:33.uncertainty. I have suddenly understand you have a set of
:11:34. > :11:39.relationships at the moment, in the uncertain world we are in at the
:11:40. > :11:43.moment, but the reality is that presumably you make a great product
:11:44. > :11:46.and you sell it into the European countries and others because you are
:11:47. > :11:51.selling something people want to buy and the reality is I refused to
:11:52. > :11:55.accept, and every businessman I talk to will see you're not selling goods
:11:56. > :12:00.to the EU, you're selling them to people who want to buy them. But the
:12:01. > :12:05.reality is a huge trade deficit. Our Germany Journal like going to say we
:12:06. > :12:11.are not buying UK products any more? The French are not Greg Salas there
:12:12. > :12:15.goods? The reality is trade will continue because if you are selling
:12:16. > :12:20.something they want to buy it will continue -- the French are not going
:12:21. > :12:24.to sell us the goods. My competitors will leap on the chance of any
:12:25. > :12:30.hesitation so if we have anything which could potentially get in our
:12:31. > :12:33.wake, and there are nontariff barriers, that could cause a big
:12:34. > :12:38.problem to our business and I don't want to go there. You are the expert
:12:39. > :12:43.in your field and your voice has as much value in the debate as mine
:12:44. > :12:46.does, your vote, my vote, it's important you cast your vote how you
:12:47. > :12:51.feel is right for you. For me I believe for lots of reasons that
:12:52. > :12:54.trading to 6 billion people in a better global framework with trade
:12:55. > :13:00.deals that we can negotiate will be the stronger balance.
:13:01. > :13:08.Let's not pretend this is a free hit. You leave, you will disrupt the
:13:09. > :13:13.economy. There will be a recession, people will lose their jobs,
:13:14. > :13:19.livelihoods will go down. You can predict as much as you like what
:13:20. > :13:24.will happen, you can promise the moon now, but the truth is in the
:13:25. > :13:25.short-term there will be a hit, even people like Nigel Farage accept
:13:26. > :13:43.that. The north-east and Cumbria are in
:13:44. > :13:47.need of investment, we often feel the Northern powerhouse does not
:13:48. > :13:50.come this far north. What would compensate for the lack of
:13:51. > :13:58.investment down the different European strands that have invested
:13:59. > :14:04.in so many facilities, attractions and infrastructure here? ?400
:14:05. > :14:10.million coming to the north-east between now and 2020, ?500 million
:14:11. > :14:16.came in the six years before that, 78,000,002 Cumbria, what would
:14:17. > :14:19.replace that? Money that our Government would pour into the
:14:20. > :14:24.north-east, if it was a decent Government. A decent Labour
:14:25. > :14:27.Government would have it. It is absurd to say the only way the
:14:28. > :14:31.north-east could be protected is by being part of the EU. You need to
:14:32. > :14:36.ensure you have the right Government in Westminster. I would say it is a
:14:37. > :14:44.Labour Government, preferably without its current leader. It is
:14:45. > :14:51.our money, we are donors to the EU. That creates uncertainty. We know
:14:52. > :14:55.European funding will come. There will be uncertainty. Of all the
:14:56. > :14:59.idiocy we have heard in this campaign, the bar has been set so
:15:00. > :15:05.low, we had a bit from Kevin 80 minutes ago, the plagues of locusts
:15:06. > :15:10.and killer bees coming to kill us if we leave. There is no doubt
:15:11. > :15:16.nonetheless that in the short term there will be a bumpy ride.
:15:17. > :15:20.Absolutely. The leave campaign should be more honest about owning
:15:21. > :15:27.up to that. Trade deals take time. That happened. It is not a bumpy
:15:28. > :15:33.ride with your job on your income. There are real futures at stake. We
:15:34. > :15:39.will be better off in the longer run. It is silly... It is that of
:15:40. > :15:43.Kevin to say we will go to hell in a handcart, it will be murderous, but
:15:44. > :15:50.we should not minimise the fact that there will be problems. It is about
:15:51. > :15:58.?2 we spend to get ?1 back of this development money. Is that good
:15:59. > :16:02.value for money? Think about this. The Government currently spends ?24
:16:03. > :16:07.on transport in the south for every ?1 it spend per head in the North,
:16:08. > :16:16.it spends nine times more on culture in the South, London, Derby North.
:16:17. > :16:26.We get more from the EU, we get more back from the EU than we put in. It
:16:27. > :16:33.is our money! I don't trust a Tory Government... I don't trust Boris
:16:34. > :16:38.Johnson and Michael Gove and the next leaders of the Tory party to
:16:39. > :16:42.give that investment to the north-east. I don't think it will
:16:43. > :16:50.happen, they have never done it in the past. The EU invests 24 million
:16:51. > :16:55.in Newcastle every year. The European research grants help our
:16:56. > :17:00.universities to deliver. World beating science. I want us to be
:17:01. > :17:03.strong and leading in Europe, that investment helps us in the
:17:04. > :17:12.north-east, not dependent on Whitehall. I want to understand why
:17:13. > :17:19.it is bad to be dependent on Whitehall but not on Brussels. We
:17:20. > :17:25.will hear a little later. I sense we need to have a good section on
:17:26. > :17:31.hearing the views from the audience. I work in Cumbria's second largest
:17:32. > :17:35.industry, tourism. It has grown significantly over recent years. The
:17:36. > :17:43.growth has not come from Europe, it has come from the rest of the world,
:17:44. > :17:45.visitors from China, India, the United States, Canada, Australia,
:17:46. > :17:50.New Zealand. The business from Europe is stagnating. It is about
:17:51. > :17:56.looking to the world, not just Europe. Europe is the only continent
:17:57. > :18:04.whose economy is stagnant, apart from Antarctica. We are a growing
:18:05. > :18:10.area, we don't need Europe to proper is up. We can better spend our money
:18:11. > :18:17.ourselves. This chap in the waistcoat. You are mixing two issues
:18:18. > :18:21.together. There is something the Government can do, we can ask where
:18:22. > :18:28.the money should be spent. She already said ?1 compared to ?8,
:18:29. > :18:35.let's say no more. In comparison to the EU, the Leave campaign only have
:18:36. > :18:41.two points to argue about, no matter what you say, no matter who it is,
:18:42. > :18:49.they are all on about one or two issues, one is migration,
:18:50. > :18:53.immigration, this debate is all about immigration, and the other one
:18:54. > :19:02.is the ?350 million they spend every week. Never say that 280 million of
:19:03. > :19:10.it, we get it back directly. No matter what you say. We don't,
:19:11. > :19:17.actually. That economy, what we spend is only one fraction of it,
:19:18. > :19:24.0.8%. What about the other 90%? This is one of the points. We have no
:19:25. > :19:29.chance, we have to remain. Let the panel take that.
:19:30. > :19:33.I'll audience have strong views. There has been misleading
:19:34. > :19:38.information about how much we could spend, the reality is, unless you
:19:39. > :19:44.come out of the single market, we cannot have this bonanza of money.
:19:45. > :19:50.There is a variety of issues. The question of the EU funds and
:19:51. > :19:54.university funding, the common agricultural policy, that is our
:19:55. > :19:59.money which we sent a cross into the EU part and a portion of it comes
:20:00. > :20:07.back to us with a whole load of Cobbler gated rules and regulations
:20:08. > :20:10.on how we spend it. It is difficult, Northumberland county council on the
:20:11. > :20:15.broadband question when we look to get investment, we nearly had not
:20:16. > :20:18.take it because it was so compensated and it has proved to be
:20:19. > :20:24.a nightmare. It would be more sensible to have... You have to put
:20:25. > :20:30.your Government in and you throw them out if you don't like them...
:20:31. > :20:37.The farmers in your area. We put 6 billion in and forget 3.8 back. The
:20:38. > :20:42.NFU wants to stay in. That is possible. The latest poll shows just
:20:43. > :20:48.over 60% of farmers are intending to vote Leave. The north-east sees a
:20:49. > :20:53.proportion of these funds, which are spent across a variety, because we
:20:54. > :20:57.are the poorest region of the north-east, but as we get accession
:20:58. > :21:01.countries, we will be less poor, and the money will be spread into other
:21:02. > :21:06.countries. I would rather have that decision in Whitehall. Good luck to
:21:07. > :21:11.anybody who thinks you will get this money from the central London
:21:12. > :21:15.Government. You might want a Labour Government, you have not got them,
:21:16. > :21:24.you have got the Conservatives. You will not get that money. For your
:21:25. > :21:33.point on... People coming from round the world, they are coming now, and
:21:34. > :21:36.we are in the U. It is a totally irrational argument.
:21:37. > :21:38.You can join in the conversation on Twitter, #EUrefLookNorth.
:21:39. > :21:41.So far there's been an exchange of views on whether or not
:21:42. > :21:44.being in the EU is good for jobs and the region's economy
:21:45. > :21:46.and if we rely heavily on grants from the EU.
:21:47. > :21:48.Let's take another question from our audience.
:21:49. > :21:49.It's from Judith Godfrey from Sunderland.
:21:50. > :21:54.We have a problem with the levels of immigration now, so how
:21:55. > :22:04.will our infrastructure cope if we stay in the EU?
:22:05. > :22:10.I am sure a lot of ordinary Labour voters are raising this on the
:22:11. > :22:17.doorstep with Labour MPs, they are telling me they are, infrastructure
:22:18. > :22:23.and jobs. My father came from Nigeria to Newcastle to study in the
:22:24. > :22:34.50s, he met my mum, her father came from Ireland to Newcastle in the
:22:35. > :22:38.20s, so he was an economic migrant. We all experience immigration in
:22:39. > :22:41.different ways. Whether that is because we are sending our children
:22:42. > :22:46.to schools where there are immigrants' children, whether we are
:22:47. > :22:51.shopping at companies like Marks Spencer or going on flights with
:22:52. > :22:56.easyJet, started by immigrants... I do happy about the levels of
:22:57. > :22:59.migration being sustainable? We have immigration, and the benefits and
:23:00. > :23:04.the challenges are not equally shared. The idea that leaving the EU
:23:05. > :23:14.will decrease immigration, the majority is from outside the EU, ...
:23:15. > :23:20.That is true. Leaving the EU will not change wars, famine, climate
:23:21. > :23:24.change. These are the factors which are driving immigration. I don't
:23:25. > :23:29.have a simple answer to the challenges, but I have many
:23:30. > :23:35.different ones are. Let's invest in our public services, let's work with
:23:36. > :23:41.the other EU partners to improve security, invest in public
:23:42. > :23:46.resources. You are hearing a list of... I am tired of Labour
:23:47. > :23:52.politicians evading the issue of immigration. You did not talk about
:23:53. > :23:57.the problems that it causes, and there are huge problems. We are not
:23:58. > :24:03.talking about immigration per se, or your family coming from Nigeria, we
:24:04. > :24:15.are talking about a net total of 330,000 people every year going up.
:24:16. > :24:20.It is coming down. It is 1.6% of the population in this region not born
:24:21. > :24:25.in the UK. There is a huge problem, two kinds of problems, one is the
:24:26. > :24:30.internal movement of EU workers to this country, which has seen a
:24:31. > :24:38.lowering of the wage for the poorest people in this country, particularly
:24:39. > :24:42.so on the east coast, particularly Lincolnshire, Essex and East Anglia,
:24:43. > :24:47.massive reductions in some areas, some incomes have gone down by 20 to
:24:48. > :24:53.30%, because this Government and the EU uses cheap Labour for the incomes
:24:54. > :25:04.policy on the slide to make sure people stay poor. The other problem
:25:05. > :25:08.is the insane policy taken by Angela Merkel to open the doors to as many
:25:09. > :25:18.refugees as wish to come here. It is not sustainable. It has caused
:25:19. > :25:23.problems. Appalling scaremongering. What happened in Germany with Syrian
:25:24. > :25:31.refugees is not happening in Britain. Very few migrants in this
:25:32. > :25:36.part of the world. We are not in Schengen. So white are you raising
:25:37. > :25:44.it? You cannot get through border control. The question on
:25:45. > :25:49.infrastructure, it is true the NHS is ailing and waiting lists are
:25:50. > :25:53.going up, good schools are full, there are not enough council houses,
:25:54. > :25:57.but the answer is to invest and put the money in it. The answer comes
:25:58. > :26:03.back to the Government in London, not what is happening in the EU or
:26:04. > :26:09.migrants. People have a right to be angry about a lot of things that are
:26:10. > :26:11.happening in their lives, low wages, zero hours contracts, temporary
:26:12. > :26:19.contracts, difficulty getting housing, but it is ridiculous when
:26:20. > :26:29.we are kept in courage is to blame the EU and migrants. They are not to
:26:30. > :26:31.blame. The House of Lords committee, the migrant advisory committee, the
:26:32. > :26:38.Bank of England committee all said... Kevin Maguire knows better
:26:39. > :26:49.than any of these institutions! Totally discredited. Let's hear from
:26:50. > :26:55.the audience, if we please code. This gentleman here, you have been
:26:56. > :27:03.dying to get in. It is worth listening to your colleagues, Doctor
:27:04. > :27:08.Sarah Wollaston, who was a Brexit supporter until two weeks ago, she
:27:09. > :27:14.came out and supports Remain, because she is ashamed of the Leave
:27:15. > :27:21.campaign's misrepresentation of the so-called migration problem, and the
:27:22. > :27:29.NHS. She has great integrity, and for those supporting Leave, read her
:27:30. > :27:34.statement, it is damning. One more. Everybody talks about migration as
:27:35. > :27:39.being people from the EU coming here, but we don't hear much about
:27:40. > :27:45.people, British people, who have gone to the EU to work or study or
:27:46. > :27:49.retire, to spend their winter there, I would like to ask the panel, what
:27:50. > :28:00.will happen to them if we have a Leave vote?
:28:01. > :28:07.What we hear about the immigration and that, right, as far as what is I
:28:08. > :28:11.know, from what I have heard, if you have got an EU passport we cannot
:28:12. > :28:16.stop you from coming into this country, right? Why don't they turn
:28:17. > :28:21.around and say well, right you are, what ever benefits you get from your
:28:22. > :28:31.country, we will give you hear, no more, no less. That includes
:28:32. > :28:35.housing, family allowance, the lot. I am sure the Prime Minister has
:28:36. > :28:42.tried to take and from that. Gentleman in the short, last one.
:28:43. > :28:47.The population forecast by my reckoned means the environment,
:28:48. > :28:51.houses, schools, hospitals, prisons, roads, would need to be a third
:28:52. > :28:55.beggar to cope. I just don't do I want to see all our cities and towns
:28:56. > :28:59.and villages being one third beggar. APPLAUSE
:29:00. > :29:12.-- one third larger. It is the dog whistle argument, to
:29:13. > :29:18.try to rally votes, migration. It is part of the thing which needs to be
:29:19. > :29:21.considered. The question is how do we manage the growth we will need in
:29:22. > :29:26.investment and it's difficult to do that when the free movement of the
:29:27. > :29:31.500 million and growing EU passport holding people who can come here and
:29:32. > :29:34.will come here all the more, we've a national living wage which is
:29:35. > :29:41.extremely attractive to someone who might want to come here. The key
:29:42. > :29:46.point is we cannot determine as a nation how many come in, so non-EU
:29:47. > :29:52.immigration is now controlled very tightly and there are many
:29:53. > :29:58.visitors... It went up in the last figures. I am not saying we don't
:29:59. > :30:01.stop them coming. The point is we control them. The question you have
:30:02. > :30:07.too asked yourself is whether you would rather... Why have you not
:30:08. > :30:16.done anything about it? Non-EU immigration is not controlled! THEY
:30:17. > :30:21.TALK OVER EACH OTHER It hasn't been stopped because we have gaps, but
:30:22. > :30:26.the point system is very tight on non-EU immigration but there is no
:30:27. > :30:31.points system, no control. As a porter would you other vote to be
:30:32. > :30:35.out of the system which doesn't give us any control over EU migration
:30:36. > :30:39.would you rather continue to have the flow of migrants, many of whom
:30:40. > :30:42.are young people coming to work and bringing skills but we don't have
:30:43. > :30:47.any determining decision over it. The numbers are going up and we are
:30:48. > :30:50.looking at a city the size of Newcastle being built every year for
:30:51. > :30:56.the next 30 years and that will take real investment. As long as might
:30:57. > :31:03.you cannot control migration is the allegation here, what is an
:31:04. > :31:06.acceptable level of the number of people coming in? You cannot control
:31:07. > :31:13.immigration from outside the EU, that has been going up. It's been
:31:14. > :31:16.going up, it's been going up. If there was no immigration from the EU
:31:17. > :31:22.we would still have exceeded David Cameron's false pledge by an order
:31:23. > :31:28.of magnitude. So it's very difficult to control immigration because we
:31:29. > :31:34.live in a global world, immigration from outside the EU, we haven't been
:31:35. > :31:39.able to get down to the levels David Cameron promised. So what we need to
:31:40. > :31:46.do is, it's absolutely right, invest in infrastructure, in schools. In
:31:47. > :31:50.terms of the actual level that is best, that depends on our growing
:31:51. > :32:00.economy and it depends on the investment we need. You left us with
:32:01. > :32:05.almost ?1 trillion of debt, where is this magical money going to come
:32:06. > :32:11.from? And the Conservative government have increased the debts
:32:12. > :32:14.hugely and still not investing. The problem is what model do you adopt
:32:15. > :32:22.because if you stay in the market there is still the free movement of
:32:23. > :32:26.people. I don't think immigration is anywhere near the most important
:32:27. > :32:30.reason as to why we should leave the EU, the most important reason by a
:32:31. > :32:36.mile, and the only one for me is democracy. APPLAUSE
:32:37. > :32:40.I had to say on the issue of immigration I disagree with the chap
:32:41. > :32:43.over there and what David Cameron has done I think it's absolutely
:32:44. > :32:47.wrong that a Polish person who comes here and wants to work hard is then
:32:48. > :32:51.deprived of benefits when the same benefits would apply to other people
:32:52. > :32:56.in Britain. I think that's wrong. It goes against everything I believe in
:32:57. > :33:01.as a socialist. But without doubt, it comes back to that same point,
:33:02. > :33:08.that the migration here has lowered wage rates vary considerably and you
:33:09. > :33:14.all know this. The people of Britain now this. It's absolutely
:33:15. > :33:20.disingenuous of the Remain campaign not to accept that. THEY TALK OVER
:33:21. > :33:26.EACH OTHER It's a very small amount if you study the Bank of England.
:33:27. > :33:33.Someone like Mike Ashley has lowered wage rates far more than any
:33:34. > :33:37.migrants. I must move on. I've got to move this on. I am aware many
:33:38. > :33:40.people want to join in the debate and there will be debates on your
:33:41. > :33:42.local BBC radio stations in the coming days.
:33:43. > :33:44.Time for our final question of the evening.
:33:45. > :33:46.And it's from Ella Doshi, who's a recent graduate
:33:47. > :33:52.The polls suggest that young people hold the key to this vote,
:33:53. > :33:57.but how exactly would leaving the EU affect young people?
:33:58. > :34:05.Kevin Maguire? I think it will reduce their opportunities and if
:34:06. > :34:09.you are thinking of voting but not sure how, vote for younger people,
:34:10. > :34:13.talk to your children or grandchildren. I know people whose
:34:14. > :34:17.parents were around in the Second World War who have their own reasons
:34:18. > :34:22.for aborting in. Other people might want to be out but think of the
:34:23. > :34:25.future. It's much better working with your neighbours, cooperating
:34:26. > :34:31.with other countries, being part of Europe. You can turn your back on
:34:32. > :34:36.the world if you like and think you can go it alone on your own way but
:34:37. > :34:43.younger people will pay the price for that in the long run. Why should
:34:44. > :34:47.a young person in Berwick vote out? I disagree fundamentally with the
:34:48. > :34:51.view that Europe which is not what we are talking about, we are talking
:34:52. > :34:56.about the EU which is a political union. We are part of Europe and
:34:57. > :34:59.that won't change. Young people with great skills from great British
:35:00. > :35:03.universities will be able to go across the world and work in any
:35:04. > :35:08.numbers of places. That won't change. I think the key reason for
:35:09. > :35:14.aborting out is if you believe that democracy is a viable thing created
:35:15. > :35:21.by Britain and cheered around the world which is something that so
:35:22. > :35:25.many new members have joined, we do value ours as long as we stay in the
:35:26. > :35:28.EU because your boat becomes less and less powerful in terms of the
:35:29. > :35:35.effect you have on the decisions made over you every day. The most
:35:36. > :35:40.important thing, my son turns 18 next you and I want his whole to
:35:41. > :35:48.have greater value than it would if we stayed in the EU -- his vote. I
:35:49. > :35:53.think it is an apt moment to hear from a young person. I will be
:35:54. > :35:58.obviously voting Remain. I want to challenge what was said about
:35:59. > :36:02.democracy, in this country how can we talk about democracy when we have
:36:03. > :36:11.and an elected house of lords and only 37% of people who bothered to
:36:12. > :36:19.vote voted for your government? So we make it worse by a meaning in the
:36:20. > :36:23.EU, that is not logical. This is fundamentally about sovereignty and
:36:24. > :36:30.we have sovereignty, what we have now, what we have now is a share of
:36:31. > :36:36.sovereignty in the biggest single market in the world and we want to
:36:37. > :36:40.give that up and be a small island. Complying with the legislation but
:36:41. > :36:45.having no input. Let's stick with the wider issue of the future for
:36:46. > :36:50.the younger generation, what do they have to look forward to either as
:36:51. > :36:54.part of the EU or not? I used to run a youth charity and I want young
:36:55. > :36:58.people in the north-east to have a job and future. They will opt out of
:36:59. > :37:03.this referendum if people keep lying to them and saying it's about or
:37:04. > :37:08.democracy. In the north-east people need a job and the best way to
:37:09. > :37:16.guarantee a job is by staying in the EU. APPLAUSE
:37:17. > :37:20.Gentleman on the front row. As a young person I don't want my destiny
:37:21. > :37:28.and laws to be decided by a faceless Commissioner. Who doesn't know my
:37:29. > :37:34.life, who's never probably visited to the UK. I want my destiny and
:37:35. > :37:37.laws to be decided by the MPI vote for and not the president or
:37:38. > :37:49.Commissioner that I don't I think you're absolutely right and
:37:50. > :37:53.what the European Commission is doing at the moment is truly
:37:54. > :37:59.frightening. I want young people, the next generation to live in a
:38:00. > :38:04.proper democracy where they have accountable politicians and what the
:38:05. > :38:09.EU is doing at the moment, Jean-Claude Juncker, what they are
:38:10. > :38:12.doing is scary, he has said any country which elects a right-wing
:38:13. > :38:17.populist government will not be like to make decisions within the EU,
:38:18. > :38:21.will be stripped of its decision-making and may face fines.
:38:22. > :38:24.They are doing it to Poland and don't believe it stops there. If you
:38:25. > :38:30.are on the left they will believe you as well, if you support an
:38:31. > :38:36.anti-austerity party you will be Billy beer as well. They took these
:38:37. > :38:44.powers upon themselves in 2014 -- you will be bullied there as well.
:38:45. > :38:51.This actually happened, I am not scaremongering, this is what
:38:52. > :38:57.happened. Young people within the EU, why should they vote to stay? I
:38:58. > :39:01.think the young lady put it very well, it is about the economy and
:39:02. > :39:06.their economic future, that's what most parents want for their kids and
:39:07. > :39:10.it's what I want for my constituents. The Leave campaign can
:39:11. > :39:14.talk about it being all right in time, there will be problems early
:39:15. > :39:18.on, you don't know what it will look like in the beginning but in time we
:39:19. > :39:21.will be better off but let me tell you that people who suffer when
:39:22. > :39:25.things go wrong economically are not the wretch, they are poor people,
:39:26. > :39:37.they are young people who don't yet have a job -- are not the rich. We
:39:38. > :39:44.will hear a lot more of this in the next ten days. I'm sorry we've run
:39:45. > :39:49.out of time, we could go on for far longer. That is it from everyone in
:39:50. > :39:53.the studio tonight, the panel and the audience, if you want to take
:39:54. > :39:56.part in further debate there will be more on your BBC local radio
:39:57. > :39:58.stations before polling day. Good night.