0:00:33 > 0:00:42John Reith had long funded who profile -- had long funded air who
0:00:42 > 0:00:44profile career, despite the fact that his father told him it was full
0:00:44 > 0:00:49of snares and as abutments.He was invited to become Minister of
0:00:49 > 0:00:52information, and a safe seat was found for him at Southampton. He
0:00:52 > 0:00:56later admitted to Churchill that he was rather frightened of the House
0:00:56 > 0:01:00of Commons. Not nearly so frightened as they are of you, Churchill
0:01:00 > 0:01:05replied. Still, he didn't mind sitting for Southampton. He said, I
0:01:05 > 0:01:08would much rather have Southampton than Bournemouth or any other place
0:01:08 > 0:01:14with no special interest. He was returned unopposed, and entered the
0:01:14 > 0:01:20House in February 19 40. He enjoyed being a new member, and he thought
0:01:20 > 0:01:22certain aspects of politics most revolting, like the necessity of
0:01:22 > 0:01:27keeping in with one's constituents. Luckily for him, after a few months
0:01:27 > 0:01:32and just one major speech, he was kicked upstairs to the Lords in a
0:01:32 > 0:01:35re-shuffle. No more constituents.
0:02:04 > 0:02:10It is deeply embedded in Britain's national consciousness, the image of
0:02:10 > 0:02:14a country standing alone against Nazi Germany galvanised by the
0:02:14 > 0:02:18leadership of Winston Churchill. There wasn't anything inevitable
0:02:18 > 0:02:24about his arrival in Downing Street. It took a complex set of events to
0:02:24 > 0:02:30force out his predecessor and to put Churchill in his place. There was
0:02:30 > 0:02:35defeat and fatal misjudgment, unravelled by my guest in his new
0:02:35 > 0:02:39minute. Set the scene for us. The Second World War is under way,
0:02:39 > 0:02:46Poland has been overrun by the Nazis but it has gone quiet.Chamberlain
0:02:46 > 0:02:51thought he could strangle Germany by an economic blockade. He hoped by
0:02:51 > 0:02:56April, May the war would be over. Churchill who he had brought into
0:02:56 > 0:03:01his cabinet, in September, as first Lord of the Admiralty was constantly
0:03:01 > 0:03:04arguing, he wanted action against Germany, and at every cabinet
0:03:04 > 0:03:13meeting he brought up the idea of mining the entrants to the area in
0:03:13 > 0:03:19Norway providing all The Iron ore and finally, in April, the Cabinet
0:03:19 > 0:03:24gave him the go-ahead to mine the entrance to the area and the next
0:03:24 > 0:03:31day Germany invaded Norway and Denmark, suddenly church isles great
0:03:31 > 0:03:36plan for dramatic action became the first kind of next action after the
0:03:36 > 0:03:43invasion of Poland, and church, having promoted it directed this
0:03:43 > 0:03:46disastrous military campaign which lasted about three weeks, in which
0:03:46 > 0:03:50he sent ships from England to Norway, they landed, in three
0:03:50 > 0:03:56different parts of Norway, and within two weeks, we were, three
0:03:56 > 0:04:01weeks before Dunkirk we are evacuating our army from Norway.He
0:04:01 > 0:04:10is the author of an debacle.It is Prso the worst military catastrophe
0:04:10 > 0:04:13since the Crimea, Parliament, suddenly, the ministers had been led
0:04:13 > 0:04:20to believe this was a great military victory, trumpeted in the press, we
0:04:20 > 0:04:24have landed, taken it suddenly the public and the politicians woke up
0:04:24 > 0:04:32to the fact that we were evacuating our army, and Parliament was
0:04:32 > 0:04:36assembled to ostensibly, it was a procedure for the holiday to have
0:04:36 > 0:04:39ten days of holiday, so the opposition and the rebel Tory MPs
0:04:39 > 0:04:45decided to use this two day debate to try and unseat Chamberlain, but
0:04:45 > 0:04:50he had a majority of 21. He was unseatable. Nobody when the debate
0:04:50 > 0:04:54begins to examine the causes of this debacle. Churchill is going to wind
0:04:54 > 0:04:58up for it. The first time he has wound up for a debate in 11 year, he
0:04:58 > 0:05:04will wind up to try and explain the catastrophe of which he was the
0:05:04 > 0:05:08architect, Chamberlain is going to open it. Nobody hen he got up on
0:05:08 > 0:05:14Tuesday 7th May at 3.30 to explain this catastrophe, believed that the
0:05:14 > 0:05:20Government would be unseated.When we look at the Norway debate, what
0:05:20 > 0:05:25some people call the hinge of fate, the moment Britain decided to change
0:05:25 > 0:05:30its leadership, the two main protagonist are Neville Chamberlain
0:05:30 > 0:05:33and Winston Churchill. They are not debating against each other, they
0:05:33 > 0:05:38are supposedly on the same side. Chamberlain is almost dismissed as
0:05:38 > 0:05:43the weak man who was Hitler's, he manned to pull the wool over his
0:05:43 > 0:05:47eyes, what was Chamberlain really like as a Prime Minister? Minister?
0:05:47 > 0:05:52Husband he as whack a figure as people believe?What was gripping to
0:05:52 > 0:05:56me, I approached this through church hill's lens, the official version is
0:05:56 > 0:06:03written by Churchill eight years later Theth Gaerring Storm we see he
0:06:03 > 0:06:09is a dupe, a weak, stubborn individual, weak, vain and Churchill
0:06:09 > 0:06:13dominated the procedure, again, you put the wool over this, and they got
0:06:13 > 0:06:19on much better than history or Churchill allowed at the time, and
0:06:19 > 0:06:23there is evidence that Chamberlain thought he was in, Churchill was
0:06:23 > 0:06:26incredibly loyal to him, which isn't something we necessarily feel about
0:06:26 > 0:06:30him. He has twice crossed the floor of the House of Commons and
0:06:30 > 0:06:34reratted. And during this period I think it is Churchill's loyalty that
0:06:34 > 0:06:41allows him to slip into Chamberlain's shoes, and when
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Churchill becomes Prime Minister Chamberlain is the person who allows
0:06:44 > 0:06:49him to fight the Battle of Britain, Chamberlain instead of what happened
0:06:49 > 0:06:54in 1916 when Asquith is taken over, he goes off in a huff and Lloyd
0:06:54 > 0:07:03George has to kind of rule without the help of what Churchill had the
0:07:03 > 0:07:08Chief Whip helping him because...He had his back.It is Chamberlain's
0:07:08 > 0:07:12Spitfires and hurricanes are winning the Battle of Britain. Churchill
0:07:12 > 0:07:15argued for bomber, he said I will never find such a colleague again.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19That is after May when came were lain is holding the fort when
0:07:19 > 0:07:23Churchill is in France.Let us look at the transition that happens
0:07:23 > 0:07:30during this debate. It is an electric moment in the end, but it
0:07:30 > 0:07:32starts off low-key, everyone expects the Government to have a rough ride
0:07:32 > 0:07:38and suddenly things boil up. What happened to make that occur?There
0:07:38 > 0:07:45is a moment at which Admiral Keys who had argued, a great friend of
0:07:45 > 0:07:51chup hill but he argued to -- Churchill to go into Norway, become
0:07:51 > 0:07:56a swashbuckling as he has done in Zeebrugge in 1918. Suddenly, he
0:07:56 > 0:08:01hears that the Navy, the reputation of the Navy has been traduced.The
0:08:01 > 0:08:06Navy is coming the blame.He is so outraged. He gets up and he is a bad
0:08:06 > 0:08:12speaker and he suddenly giving what many people say is the most
0:08:12 > 0:08:18devastating speech they have heard. He attacks Churchill, he attacks the
0:08:18 > 0:08:27Admiralty. Up to that moment I think the government were going to get
0:08:27 > 0:08:31away with it. Suddenly, here is a staunch supporter and hitherto of
0:08:31 > 0:08:37the Government attacking it. The next later that night, another
0:08:37 > 0:08:43member gets up. A great friend of Churchill. A fellow constituency for
0:08:43 > 0:08:4730 years, adjacent to Chamberlain. He is the Godfather of Chamberlain
0:08:47 > 0:08:53's son. They train every day. He gets up and delivers the most
0:08:53 > 0:08:56devastating attack, even more devastating than Geoffrey Howe's
0:08:56 > 0:09:04attack on Margaret Thatcher, to a colleague. He ends it with a speech
0:09:04 > 0:09:07from Cromwell addressing the long Parliament, in the game of God go.
0:09:07 > 0:09:13This is one of the most dramatic moments I think in it is accepted in
0:09:13 > 0:09:17Parliamentary history. What is curious, act the fact the entire
0:09:17 > 0:09:23eyes and ears of the nation are on it and that Parliament is full,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26no-one knows whether Chamberlain was present to hear it. It is so
0:09:26 > 0:09:31gripling even though I love the expression, the darkest place is
0:09:31 > 0:09:35always underneath the lamp. Here, no-one has gone over this with with
0:09:35 > 0:09:40more forensic attention than all the historians of the last 50 years but
0:09:40 > 0:09:45we don't know if Chamberlain is in the room.One of the fascinating
0:09:45 > 0:09:49things is this photograph of that debate, with Chamberlain on his
0:09:49 > 0:09:55feet, it is blurred. It is out of focus. It is underexposed but you
0:09:55 > 0:09:59can kind of make out some some of of the main players. It is thought one
0:09:59 > 0:10:04of the blobs at the back is Amy jabbing his finger at Chamberlain.
0:10:04 > 0:10:10That seems to me, these photographs were taken Ellis Italily. You
0:10:10 > 0:10:13weren't allowed to take picture, there are no pictures of Chamberlain
0:10:13 > 0:10:18in the old House of Commons which was bombed in 1941. These are the
0:10:18 > 0:10:22only ones that exist of these two famous important individuals in our
0:10:22 > 0:10:27history. As you say they are like jellyfish, blurred and they are
0:10:27 > 0:10:33taken by a Conservative MP who Churchill later makes a minister,
0:10:33 > 0:10:38with a spy camera he gets from Latvia, and he takes them, and you
0:10:38 > 0:10:42are not allowed he would have been expelled from the chamber and
0:10:42 > 0:10:48suspended. The sergeant at arms suspects he is taking them, he slips
0:10:48 > 0:10:53him a note and brings out a cigarette lighter which he rubs
0:10:53 > 0:10:57along his nose. These photographs when the House of Commons is bombed,
0:10:57 > 0:11:02many of the records were obliterated. These were only
0:11:02 > 0:11:06discovered in the 60s and finally printed up and they are the only
0:11:06 > 0:11:10real recordings of this event, and again it showed me it was a metaphor
0:11:10 > 0:11:15to me that we think we know about this stuff, it is so familiar but it
0:11:15 > 0:11:20is not. It is still new. I mean... But to move on to the next big
0:11:20 > 0:11:30event. The two speeches from Admiral Keys, the killer blow is
0:11:30 > 0:11:36administered by David Lloyd George. Lloyd George gets up, he has gone up
0:11:36 > 0:11:43in a sulk. He has left the chamber and so he misses this altercation
0:11:43 > 0:11:46between Chamberlain and Morrison, until the second day of the debate,
0:11:46 > 0:11:50Labour are not going to divide the house, because they don't feel, they
0:11:50 > 0:11:56think, what is going to happen to them it will consolidate the
0:11:56 > 0:12:00Conservatives just as Jeremy Corbyn was consolidated when there was a
0:12:00 > 0:12:03vote of no confidence. It will make him stronger. They are not going to
0:12:03 > 0:12:08divide is House. On the second day an intelligence officer comes back
0:12:08 > 0:12:11from Norway, who is a prospective Conservative MP and he is so upset
0:12:11 > 0:12:15with what he has seen in Norway he has written a memorandum, and he
0:12:15 > 0:12:19instead of going into the the House of Commons in his combat fatigues to
0:12:19 > 0:12:24give it to the Chief Whip or the Conservatives he gives it to at Lee.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27He says the Leader of the Opposition, he says you have to act.
0:12:27 > 0:12:34This is what happened in Norway. It was a disaster. If we still have
0:12:34 > 0:12:39these people in power. Soth Lee reads this and decides to convene
0:12:39 > 0:12:44the Labour executive and Shea we are going to diI vice the house. The
0:12:44 > 0:12:48Conservatives think they have got away with it. Despite Keys and
0:12:48 > 0:12:54aimry, they think they will get through this vote for Whit sun
0:12:54 > 0:12:57holiday, Herbert Morrison gets up to speak for Labour. At the end he says
0:12:57 > 0:13:03we are going to divide the house. Chamberlain makes this catastrophic
0:13:03 > 0:13:06responsibilities. He says we have friends in the House. Using the
0:13:06 > 0:13:09Parliamentary term but it is interpreted is this is a personal
0:13:09 > 0:13:14thing. I have friend who will back me up so to speak. Speak. Lloyd
0:13:14 > 0:13:17George is absent but he has been told about it. They say come down
0:13:17 > 0:13:23David. There is a great altercation in Welsh from celeb meant Davis the
0:13:23 > 0:13:27liberal MP. Saying you have to come down and attack Chamberlain because
0:13:27 > 0:13:33he is appealing to friends.What did he say?He comes down, he gets up,
0:13:33 > 0:13:40he doesn't want to attack Churchill his old friend, and Lloyd George
0:13:40 > 0:13:47gets up, and he says that this period calls for sacrifice and the
0:13:47 > 0:13:53is no greater sacrifice that Chamberlain must give up the seals
0:13:53 > 0:14:00of office. El Is devastating. It is like eight
0:14:00 > 0:14:08years of of pent up criticism against Chamberlain is uncorked.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Churchill is overheard saying it is difficult for me to end the debate.
0:14:11 > 0:14:17Churchill then goes down to wrap up the debate, and there is endless cat
0:14:17 > 0:14:24calls from Labour. It is bedlam. He is trying to defend an untenable
0:14:24 > 0:14:29position, and he is trying to defend Chamberlain, who he would like to
0:14:29 > 0:14:34replace.This is where we get to the six minutes in May of this title. It
0:14:34 > 0:14:38denotes the time it took for the vote. What happened in that vote,
0:14:38 > 0:14:45because it was just a vote to adjourn. It was a purely technical
0:14:45 > 0:14:50motion. What happened?One of the grip things in researching this, I
0:14:50 > 0:14:57discovered that at the end of every debate there is a Victorian egg
0:14:57 > 0:15:00timer, the clerks turn it over you have six minutes for the politicians
0:15:00 > 0:15:05to go into the aye or the No lobby. Then the doors are locked by the
0:15:05 > 0:15:12keepers and you can't vote after that. So when the MP, the division
0:15:12 > 0:15:18is sounded, on Wednesday 8th May about 11.13pm, still no-one really
0:15:18 > 0:15:25knows what is going to happen, the majority of 213 seems unassailable,
0:15:25 > 0:15:30and so they cross the floor, people like John Profumo who is the first
0:15:30 > 0:15:35debate he is going to vote in. He is a Conservative MP and he goes into
0:15:35 > 0:15:39vote against the Government and he is spat on by a government minister.
0:15:39 > 0:15:45People are watching which they are going. Only as they come out of the
0:15:45 > 0:15:50lobbies does the yelling begin. People are shouting trait efor or
0:15:50 > 0:15:54yes men, the teller come out. There is silence and the Government have
0:15:54 > 0:16:00only got a majority of 81. Having had a majority of 213, and this is
0:16:00 > 0:16:05one of the biggest you have to remember that in Munich not a single
0:16:05 > 0:16:11Tory MP voted against that.This represents a haemorrhaging.This is
0:16:11 > 0:16:19a haemorrhaging of support. He could carry on. Chamberlain never goes
0:16:19 > 0:16:32back except for a brief period. And then, the kind of argy-bargy begins,
0:16:32 > 0:16:39so the great favouriteIt is a fascinating account. Churchill
0:16:39 > 0:16:43ultimately wins it but does this book to some grow pull him off his
0:16:43 > 0:16:58pedestal. He reveals he does culpable in the military disaster.
0:17:03 > 0:17:13Subtitles resume on "Thursday in Parliament" at 2300.