:00:34. > :00:41.So Prime Minister, the negotiations to leave the EU begin. It is a
:00:42. > :00:49.historic moment. In what whiches will Britain be a better country for
:00:50. > :00:54.leaving? You're right, this is a historic moment. We are putting into
:00:55. > :00:59.place the decision that was taken in the referendum on 23rd June last
:01:00. > :01:03.year to leave the EU and the formal process has begun. I have written to
:01:04. > :01:07.as they say invoke this Article 50 that people will have heard about,
:01:08. > :01:11.which starts the process of formal negotiations. As we look ahead to
:01:12. > :01:15.the outcome of those negotiations, I believe that we should be optimistic
:01:16. > :01:20.as a country about what we can achieve. I think when people voted
:01:21. > :01:24.last June, what they voted for was for us to be in control, in control
:01:25. > :01:31.of our borders, in control of our laws. But I think people also voted
:01:32. > :01:37.for change and that is why alongside the work we are doing on Brexit I'm
:01:38. > :01:44.clear the government has plan for Britain to build a stronger economy,
:01:45. > :01:49.where everyone plays by the same rules, fairer society, and to ensure
:01:50. > :01:51.we are a more united nation. And somewhere that children and
:01:52. > :01:59.grandchildren can be proud to call home. We couldn't have been better
:02:00. > :02:04.in all these ways and remained in the EU? The people decided they
:02:05. > :02:09.wanted to come out and I think when they gave that clear message to us
:02:10. > :02:14.as politicians, I think what they wanted to see was the United Kingdom
:02:15. > :02:20.making its own decisions and not feeling that decisions were being
:02:21. > :02:26.maken in Brussels. In the letter I have sent today, I make the point
:02:27. > :02:32.that we have not rejected Europe or values of democracy or European
:02:33. > :02:36.values. What we are saying is it is about our self-dechl nation and us
:02:37. > :02:41.having control. You have mentioned control several times, so let me
:02:42. > :02:45.start with immigration, I do that, because for many people, the scale
:02:46. > :02:49.of immigration over the past ten years was a major reason why they
:02:50. > :02:55.voted to leave. So can the people who voted that way, can they be
:02:56. > :03:00.reassured that immigration will be significantly lore after Brexit? --
:03:01. > :03:05.lower after Brexit. Yes immigration was an issue that key in people's
:03:06. > :03:11.minds. What they wanted to know was that it was the UK Government was
:03:12. > :03:16.taking control of our borders and decisions would be made here. We
:03:17. > :03:21.want to see migration, net migration coming down, we have been able to
:03:22. > :03:26.put rules into place in relation to people coming from jute side the EU
:03:27. > :03:30.and now when we leave we will be able to put rules in place decided
:03:31. > :03:35.here about the basis on which people can come from inside the EU. But
:03:36. > :03:38.will immigration be significantly lower after Brexit? I think what we
:03:39. > :03:42.will see, we will see a difference in the number of people coming in,
:03:43. > :03:46.but I was Home Secretary for six years and when you look at
:03:47. > :03:49.immigration, you constantly have to look at this issue, because there
:03:50. > :03:53.are so many different things that can happen in the world that affect
:03:54. > :03:58.the numbers of people trying to come here. What we will be able to do as
:03:59. > :04:03.a result of leaving the EU is to have control of our borders, to set
:04:04. > :04:10.those rules for people coming from outside, from inside the EU into the
:04:11. > :04:17.UK. We haven't been able to do that. So we will set the rules for that as
:04:18. > :04:21.we have set the rules for others. What will the rules be for EU
:04:22. > :04:29.citizens coming Hooker? We are looking -- Coming to the UK. We will
:04:30. > :04:33.be bringing forward a bill that will set out our proposals. There is a
:04:34. > :04:36.couple of issues around people in the EU, there are a few people from
:04:37. > :04:40.couple of issues around people in the EU living here in the UK
:04:41. > :04:44.already. Some will have been here for a considerable period of time,
:04:45. > :04:49.others will have come more recently. One thing I want to do is give them
:04:50. > :04:56.reassurance about their future, but I only want to do that when I know
:04:57. > :05:01.those UK citizens who have moved to the EU will have that reassurance.
:05:02. > :05:06.What I'm talking about is the future for people coming from temperature
:05:07. > :05:10.U. Would you envisage as part of Brexit deal that would still be some
:05:11. > :05:15.sort of preference for EU citizens who want to come and work here? What
:05:16. > :05:21.I'm clear about is that there will still be opportunities for people to
:05:22. > :05:25.come to the UK from the EU, but we will bring forward proposals on what
:05:26. > :05:29.rules should be and those will go through our Parliament and be looked
:05:30. > :05:33.at by members of Parliament and we will decide what the rules should
:05:34. > :05:37.be. We want to make sure of course that our economy is still strong, we
:05:38. > :05:42.see many people here working in our economy and in our public sector, we
:05:43. > :05:45.want to make sure that we still have that strong economy. But people want
:05:46. > :05:54.us to be in control and that is the important thing and that is what we
:05:55. > :06:03.will be doing. The Conservatives promised to cut net migration seven
:06:04. > :06:10.years ago. None EU migration, people coming from beyond the EU is over
:06:11. > :06:16.100,000 a year. You must understand why people are skeltdical --
:06:17. > :06:20.sceptical. If you look at what happened to those net migration
:06:21. > :06:24.figures over the last seven years, they have gone up and come down.
:06:25. > :06:29.They're still high. They're higher than we wants them to be. Almost
:06:30. > :06:34.three times higher. You're right, but that is why what I have said is
:06:35. > :06:38.so important, in immigration you can't set one set of rules and think
:06:39. > :06:42.that is the answer and you go away and forget about it. You have
:06:43. > :06:53.constantly to be looking at this, constantly working at it and saying,
:06:54. > :07:00.have we got the rules right. You can' reduce it without cuts in EU
:07:01. > :07:11.and non-EU migration. We need to look across the board. But we need
:07:12. > :07:15.to make sure that people here in the UK have the skills they need to take
:07:16. > :07:20.the jobs here so, businesses don't feel they have to reach out overseas
:07:21. > :07:25.to bring people in. One final thing on immigration, the British economy
:07:26. > :07:28.has done better than most forecasters said at the time of
:07:29. > :07:34.referendum and it continues to do well, what happens if we continue to
:07:35. > :07:40.do well and you need more than 100,000 migrants a year. Would you
:07:41. > :07:44.let them in? One thing is crucial as we look to the future, is for us to
:07:45. > :07:47.make sure that people here in the UK are getting the training, the
:07:48. > :07:51.education the skills they need to be able to take on the jobs for that
:07:52. > :07:56.growing economy in the future. That is why as a Government we are
:07:57. > :07:57.putting more money into technical education, ensuring that young
:07:58. > :08:02.people have the opportunity to get education, ensuring that young
:08:03. > :08:06.the skills they need. I want to see a high paid, high skilled economy,
:08:07. > :08:13.but we need to ensure that young people are going to be able to take
:08:14. > :08:19.the jobs tomorrow. The EU's talked of a one-off multibillion pound exit
:08:20. > :08:24.fee. Some suggested it should be ?50 billion or more. You'd contemplate a
:08:25. > :08:28.sum like that? One people voted -- when people voted, one thing they
:08:29. > :08:34.voted for was to ensure in the future, outside the. EU we are not
:08:35. > :08:41.paying significant sums into the EU. Of course, we have to look at the
:08:42. > :08:46.rights and obligations we have as a member of the EU while we continue
:08:47. > :08:49.to be a member. We will continue paying according to the obligations.
:08:50. > :08:53.Will we pay an exit fee of 50 paying according to the obligations.
:08:54. > :08:57.billion? As we look at the negotiations, we have to decide what
:08:58. > :09:02.the obligationses are. But what I'm clear about is that what people want
:09:03. > :09:05.to see is that in the future we will be making decisions about our
:09:06. > :09:12.budgets and deciding not to pay those sums every year into the EU. I
:09:13. > :09:16.understand that and we may decide to continue with some programmes, but
:09:17. > :09:21.I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about an exit fee the EU is
:09:22. > :09:26.talking about, is demanding almost and it is around 50 billion. I ask
:09:27. > :09:32.again, is that in the ballpark you could contemplate? You talk about an
:09:33. > :09:37.sxit fee. There has been speculation, there is not a formal
:09:38. > :09:45.demand, the negotiations haven't started, I'm clear about what the
:09:46. > :09:48.people here expect. . I'm also clear we will meet obligations that we
:09:49. > :09:53.have. And as a member, until the point at which we leave, of course
:09:54. > :09:57.we will be continuing to pay according to the rights and
:09:58. > :10:01.obligations of that membership. People will wonder, we are leaving,
:10:02. > :10:11.why should we pay anything at all to leave? We are not talking about
:10:12. > :10:18.paying to leave. We will be leaving the European Union, but we are talk
:10:19. > :10:22.ing about when we leave, we won't be required to make significant
:10:23. > :10:26.payments every year in into the EU's budgets. There might be be some
:10:27. > :10:30.programmes we want to be members of that we wish to pay in order to be
:10:31. > :10:40.members of, because it will be in the national interest do that. That
:10:41. > :10:46.is what will drive us. The EU talks about a divorce bill, Mr Barnier, we
:10:47. > :10:50.will pay a divorce bill? There has been speculation. He is the
:10:51. > :10:54.negotiator. We are not in the negotiations yet. We are not, we
:10:55. > :11:01.will start the negotiations soon, we have done the first step, that is
:11:02. > :11:04.triggering Article 50 and as I have said the UK's a law abiding nation
:11:05. > :11:12.and will look at the obligations we have. You have mentioned the
:11:13. > :11:17.importance of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU. Do you
:11:18. > :11:23.believe you can resolve and announce this quickly? One of the things I
:11:24. > :11:28.have put in the letter to president Tusk is that I want to get an early
:11:29. > :11:36.agreement about this. And sometimes people say to me, as you have, that
:11:37. > :11:41.EU citizens are concerned. But as UK Prime Minister, I need to think
:11:42. > :11:49.about UK citizens living abroad as well. I mentioned them, can both be
:11:50. > :11:53.reassured quickly? I want a reciprocal agreement. I have said
:11:54. > :11:58.that I think that this should be done at an early stage. I believe
:11:59. > :12:02.from the talks I have had, that there is a good will there and there
:12:03. > :12:08.are those who recognise the importance of giving people
:12:09. > :12:15.reassurance and I think we will be able to address this. By Arley could
:12:16. > :12:22.bit -- early could bit the summer? I don't want to put a date on it, but
:12:23. > :12:26.I want it to be as early as possible, because people are
:12:27. > :12:33.worried. You believe that Brexit means we can no longer be members of
:12:34. > :12:37.single market? Why? Because the other leaders in Europe have made
:12:38. > :12:42.clear that what they call, they use this term, the four freedoms, and
:12:43. > :12:47.they go together. What are they? It's the importance of free movement
:12:48. > :12:57.and of course we have said we want to control movement from the EU.
:12:58. > :12:59.That entails accepting the jurisdiction of European court of
:13:00. > :13:06.justice. These are things that people voted to reject when they
:13:07. > :13:10.voted to leave the European Union. I have accepted we can't have that
:13:11. > :13:13.membership. Because that would mean accepting things the voters said
:13:14. > :13:18.they don't want. What we can do I believe is to get a good trade
:13:19. > :13:24.agreement with the European Union in terms of access for our businesses
:13:25. > :13:32.too their sing -- to their single market. Do you accept no matter mow
:13:33. > :13:37.good a free trade deal you get, no matter how good, it can't be as good
:13:38. > :13:44.as the unrestricted access we currently enjoy?
:13:45. > :13:50.I believe... What we will be working for and what I believe we can get is
:13:51. > :13:54.a comprehensive free trade agreement. We would like to see
:13:55. > :14:00.frictionless free trade is possible, Terra free across borders, to
:14:01. > :14:04.continue that trade with the EU. It cannot be as good? It will be
:14:05. > :14:08.different because it will not be based on membership of the single
:14:09. > :14:12.market and accepting all the other thing is that voters rejected. It
:14:13. > :14:19.will be saying that we want that new partnership with the EU, we still
:14:20. > :14:23.want to work and cooperate with you, and getting a trade agreement is not
:14:24. > :14:25.just about the UK, it is not just about our businesses but businesses
:14:26. > :14:29.in other countries being able to about our businesses but businesses
:14:30. > :14:33.trade with us. I think it is in the interest of both sides to agree a
:14:34. > :14:37.really good deal. Your Brexit Minister David Davies said there
:14:38. > :14:42.will be a free trade deal which will, quote, deliver the exact same
:14:43. > :14:46.benefits we enjoy now. You and I know that cannot be true. The
:14:47. > :14:55.European Union will never agree to the exact same benefits. What we are
:14:56. > :14:57.both looking for is the comprehensive free trade agreement
:14:58. > :15:00.which gives the ability to trade freely into the European single
:15:01. > :15:03.market and for them to trade with us. It will be a different
:15:04. > :15:08.relationship but I think it can have the same benefits in terms of free
:15:09. > :15:15.access to trade. When we leave the EU we and our membership of around
:15:16. > :15:19.40, I think, pan-European agencies, things to do with security, add
:15:20. > :15:22.travel, health care. One is very timely given the events in
:15:23. > :15:30.Westminster last week, will our membership of Europol, the police
:15:31. > :15:35.Europe-wide service, continue post-Brexit? That is one thing we
:15:36. > :15:40.will have to negotiators part of the negotiations. Do you want to remain
:15:41. > :15:42.a member? I think security cooperation in a number of crime and
:15:43. > :15:47.justice matters is important, not cooperation in a number of crime and
:15:48. > :15:50.just Europol but systems about exchanging information, people
:15:51. > :15:55.crossing borders, for example, which I think of valuable to us and the
:15:56. > :15:59.other countries. Would you like to remain a member of Europol? I would
:16:00. > :16:05.like to maintain the degree of cooperation on these matters that we
:16:06. > :16:08.have currently. I have argued before for exactly this a couple of years
:16:09. > :16:12.ago when we were looking at exactly these justice and home affairs
:16:13. > :16:17.matters, I think it is important for us and I want is to continue that
:16:18. > :16:22.degree of copper -- cooperation, but it will be part of a package of
:16:23. > :16:26.negotiations because when we leave the European Union, unless we have
:16:27. > :16:29.negotiated to still be members of those organisations and
:16:30. > :16:34.arrangements, membership will lapse. And if it does, will be seized to
:16:35. > :16:38.share information with Europol? We will not be able to access it in the
:16:39. > :16:43.same way as we would as a member, so I think it is important to negotiate
:16:44. > :16:52.a membership enabling us to work together as we have. As I said, and
:16:53. > :16:54.this has very much been brought home to us in London last week, at the
:16:55. > :16:57.moment now was not the time, given the threats we face across Europe,
:16:58. > :17:02.to see less cooperation. We want to see that and build on it.
:17:03. > :17:07.Will UK citizens still be eligible for free access to health care
:17:08. > :17:12.across the EU, through the European health insurance card? That will
:17:13. > :17:18.also be a matter which will be part of the negotiations. Will it be your
:17:19. > :17:22.aim to secure that? There are two macro issues, people currently
:17:23. > :17:26.resident in European Union member states and the rights that they have
:17:27. > :17:30.and, of course, the rights people would have as they move across
:17:31. > :17:43.Europe. We want the best possible deal for citizens in the United
:17:44. > :17:46.Kingdom, the best possible deal for everybody, no matter what part of
:17:47. > :17:49.the UK they live in, but we have a raft of negotiations to go through,
:17:50. > :17:52.a raft of issues we will be looking at in relation to these matters, and
:17:53. > :17:54.we need the flexibility of being able to deal with those issues. The
:17:55. > :17:57.relationship will be different in the future, it is not necessarily
:17:58. > :18:00.saying, will we replicate this or that, we will have a different
:18:01. > :18:04.relationship. You talk about a raft of things to
:18:05. > :18:07.be decided and the different relationship, you need to negotiate
:18:08. > :18:11.our divorce terms, highly controversial. You want a new
:18:12. > :18:17.freight retail for goods and services which is complicated, new
:18:18. > :18:21.health arrangements, you need to repatriate 50 trade agreements and
:18:22. > :18:28.have it all ratified by 27 other countries as well as ours. All in
:18:29. > :18:31.under two years. That is just not possible, Prime Minister? It is
:18:32. > :18:36.challenging, but I think it is possible, and the reason is this.
:18:37. > :18:40.There are two reasons, firstly because with goodwill on both
:18:41. > :18:44.sides... I think both sides recognise it is in our interests to
:18:45. > :18:47.make sure that we get these arrangements in place so that when
:18:48. > :18:51.we leave we have that trade arrangements, we know what it will
:18:52. > :18:55.be. There may be a period of implementation after the point of
:18:56. > :19:01.withdrawal, but we know what that arrangement is. Everybody is certain
:19:02. > :19:08.about whether future lies. It is in both sides' interests. The other
:19:09. > :19:11.reason I it is possible is because we are not a third country in the
:19:12. > :19:14.sense of a country that has never been part of the EU suddenly
:19:15. > :19:17.knocking at the door and saying we want these things, we have been part
:19:18. > :19:21.of the EUG is operating on the same basis with them, which I think that
:19:22. > :19:25.says in a different position for the future and makes it easier to
:19:26. > :19:30.negotiate arrangements than if we were coming at it completely fresh.
:19:31. > :19:35.Do you rule out a transitional period where some things, even after
:19:36. > :19:43.we leave, remain to be resolved? By the end of the two years I want
:19:44. > :19:45.everyone to know the withdrawal agreement and the future
:19:46. > :19:47.relationship. What I have called today a deep and special partnership
:19:48. > :19:51.with the EU, because we are still part of Europe and want to work with
:19:52. > :19:55.and cooperate with them. I think it is possible to work with them after
:19:56. > :19:59.the two years but there might have to be a period of implementation
:20:00. > :20:04.thereafter as people, businesses and governments are just to the new
:20:05. > :20:08.arrangements. If there is a transitional, or as you call it,
:20:09. > :20:12.implementation, period, will that transitional, or as you call it,
:20:13. > :20:14.involve the movement of people and being individualistic share of the
:20:15. > :20:19.European Court, or do these things both had two ends in two years? We
:20:20. > :20:23.want to make sure that we are ending the jurisdiction of the European
:20:24. > :20:27.Court of Justice and I able to control the movement of people from
:20:28. > :20:37.the European Union. We want to have the agreements done in two years.
:20:38. > :20:39.There might be a period from which we are implementing those
:20:40. > :20:41.arrangements, a very simple example, if there are different these are
:20:42. > :20:47.arrangements to be put in place, the Government here and governments
:20:48. > :20:51.elsewhere will need systems working, we need to implement the decisions
:20:52. > :20:55.taken. You said in the event of no deal we might have to change
:20:56. > :21:02.Britain's economic model, what does that mean? On the no deal, first of
:21:03. > :21:08.all, I think it would be better than a bad deal. We don't want to see a
:21:09. > :21:12.bad deal. I say that because I think some people in Europe talk about
:21:13. > :21:16.punishing the UK and I don't want to sign up to an agreement based on
:21:17. > :21:21.that. Then there are others here who perhaps feel that we should be so
:21:22. > :21:25.keen to get an agreement that we might sign up to things that the
:21:26. > :21:29.British people rejected when they voted to leave the European Union.
:21:30. > :21:35.What is the different economic model mean, that was the question? In the
:21:36. > :21:41.letter today, I have said if we don't get a deal we would go on to
:21:42. > :21:46.what are called World Trade Organisation arrangements for
:21:47. > :21:51.trading, in those circumstances, I have made clear that is not what we
:21:52. > :21:55.should want, it is not in either of our... I will come to the point of
:21:56. > :21:56.economic model but it is not in the interest of either side to have
:21:57. > :22:01.those arrangements. It is not just interest of either side to have
:22:02. > :22:06.about us, it is about the EU as well. Whatever comes out, we want to
:22:07. > :22:11.ensure we continue to have a competitive economy, that is what we
:22:12. > :22:15.would be looking at. What is a different economic model mean? I ask
:22:16. > :22:25.for a third time. We would take decisions at the time as to what we
:22:26. > :22:27.felt was necessary to keep our economy competitive, keep jobs in
:22:28. > :22:31.the UK, put in place arrangements for business to keep those jobs. I
:22:32. > :22:36.is. Labour says it is a tax haven. is. Labour says it is a tax haven.
:22:37. > :22:43.-- I am not show what a new economic model is. It is about making sure
:22:44. > :22:48.that jobs stay here in the UK and new jobs are created here in the UK.
:22:49. > :22:51.It is making sure we have the economy that enables people to have
:22:52. > :22:55.high-paid, high skilled jobs and that we ensure that young people
:22:56. > :22:59.here have those skills for the future.
:23:00. > :23:05.One rather important question, if we don't get a deal, will that
:23:06. > :23:09.jeopardise our existing cooperation against crime and terrorism with our
:23:10. > :23:16.European partners? If there is no deal, will that we can it? If I can
:23:17. > :23:21.separate those two out, on some of the cooperation we have with them on
:23:22. > :23:25.terrorism, that takes outside the structures of the European Union. --
:23:26. > :23:28.that takes place outside. It is we don't get a deal on the sort of
:23:29. > :23:33.security and criminal justice Bill is I talked about earlier, the
:23:34. > :23:36.exchange of information at our borders, that is one of the reasons
:23:37. > :23:41.that we should aim not to be in the position of getting no deal but of
:23:42. > :23:47.getting a good deal, because I think what oration is important. We are
:23:48. > :23:53.leaving the customs union, Ireland is not. Do you accept that means
:23:54. > :23:57.checks on the Irish border? We very clear, I and the Government in the
:23:58. > :24:01.Republic, the Taoiseach macro, we don't want to return to the borders
:24:02. > :24:04.of the past and we are working closely with the Irish Government
:24:05. > :24:10.about arrangements put in place to ensure frictionless border, in a
:24:11. > :24:13.practical sense, for goods and services and people travelling
:24:14. > :24:18.between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The Leave campaign promise
:24:19. > :24:26.to Brexit dividend of ?350 million a week, much of which they said could
:24:27. > :24:31.be spent on the NHS. Should the Lions show go to the NHS, and how
:24:32. > :24:36.big will the Brexit dividend be? People voted for the UK to be able
:24:37. > :24:39.to vote how it spends its budget, to not spend significant sums every
:24:40. > :24:44.year paying into the European Union and Brussels, so when we leave we
:24:45. > :24:53.will have control of that many macro and decide how to spend it. How big
:24:54. > :24:58.will the Brexit Debbie Denby? -- Brexit dividend be? Will it be
:24:59. > :25:01.anything like ?350 million a week. As part of negotiations we will make
:25:02. > :25:06.sure we do not spend those significant sums in the future, we
:25:07. > :25:13.can see the size of the dividends and determined how the money is
:25:14. > :25:17.spent. Shouldn't go to the NHS? That was on the size of -- side of the
:25:18. > :25:22.bus during the referendum. During the referendum points were made,
:25:23. > :25:26.often very passionately, on both sides of the argument. We are now
:25:27. > :25:30.beyond the referendum and at the point where we are putting this into
:25:31. > :25:35.practice, where we are starting what will be complex, challenging but I
:25:36. > :25:39.think achievable negotiations, and I am optimistic about what I think we
:25:40. > :25:44.can achieve in future. People voted for us to have control, that is what
:25:45. > :25:48.we will have. You have rejected the demands of the
:25:49. > :25:51.Scottish First Minister for a second independence referendum, saying now
:25:52. > :25:56.is not the time. When you have done the Brexit deal and we know the
:25:57. > :26:00.nature of Brexit, would you still rule out a second Scottish
:26:01. > :26:03.referendum? The comments I am getting from the Scottish Government
:26:04. > :26:07.and the SNP in Parliament at the moment that they want confirmation
:26:08. > :26:10.now that they will have a second independence referendum. What I am
:26:11. > :26:13.saying is I think now is not the time for a second independence
:26:14. > :26:18.saying is I think now is not the referendum or to be focusing on
:26:19. > :26:24.that. The life I accept that, but what about when the Brexit deal is
:26:25. > :26:28.done? -- I accept that, but what about when the Brexit deal is done?
:26:29. > :26:33.People would argue that they should have a second decision because they
:26:34. > :26:38.agree to stay within the EU. If I can explain why I have said I think
:26:39. > :26:41.now is not the time, it is relevant to the wider question, I think now
:26:42. > :26:47.is not the time to focus on the second independence referendum or to
:26:48. > :26:51.be looking at it for two reasons, now is the time when we need to pull
:26:52. > :26:55.together as the United Kingdom, be talking about how to work together
:26:56. > :27:00.to get the best possible deal for everybody about the whole United
:27:01. > :27:04.Kingdom. Focusing on an independence referendum is not about doing that.
:27:05. > :27:07.That is why it is so important for us to ensure that we focus on the
:27:08. > :27:12.future. But do you rule it out in us to ensure that we focus on the
:27:13. > :27:17.principle? Also I think it is important that we recognise... I
:27:18. > :27:23.think, Andrew, the question is not whether there could be a second
:27:24. > :27:28.independence referendum, it is whether there should be. In 2014
:27:29. > :27:33.they voted to stay part of the UK, the SNP described it as a once in a
:27:34. > :27:37.generation or once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to vote for
:27:38. > :27:40.independence. The people gave their decision. Just as we are respecting
:27:41. > :27:44.the referendum on EU membership that took place last year, we should
:27:45. > :27:47.respect the 2014 independence referendum.
:27:48. > :27:52.Jeering the referendum you said I think it is clearly in our national
:27:53. > :27:56.interest to remain in the EU, now you say that Brexit will give a
:27:57. > :28:04.better Britain. Who is the real Theresa May, the Lever or the
:28:05. > :28:07.Remainer? I campaigned to remain and I voted to remain that I said I did
:28:08. > :28:13.not think the sky would fall in if we left the EU, and it has not. It
:28:14. > :28:18.is the mother of all U-turns. I have been put in a position as Prime
:28:19. > :28:22.Minister, I believe, to respect the wishes of the people of the UK in
:28:23. > :28:27.that referendum. I believe it is my job to deliver the best possible
:28:28. > :28:31.future for the UK. It is not just about Brexit, it is my plan for
:28:32. > :28:36.Britain, it is about a more outward looking Britain, a stronger economy,
:28:37. > :28:40.fairer society and more United Nations, it is taking back forward,
:28:41. > :28:46.which is about building a brighter future for everybody in the UK.
:28:47. > :28:53.Touch and a more united nation. When you do the deal, why would you not
:28:54. > :28:57.take it to the country in a second referendum or go to the country in a
:28:58. > :29:01.general election and get the people to vote for the deal that you do?
:29:02. > :29:06.When we have the deal there will be a vote in the UK Parliament, there
:29:07. > :29:09.will be votes in parliament across Europe because there will need to be
:29:10. > :29:14.a ratification process. I believe that is the right way to do it, to
:29:15. > :29:20.say to the UK Parliament that this is your opportunity to vote for this
:29:21. > :29:26.deal. You will not take it to the country? I am confident we will be
:29:27. > :29:30.good for the British people. They have basically said to us, get on
:29:31. > :29:34.with it. We want to leave the EU, get on with it, that is what we're
:29:35. > :29:39.going to do. Prime Minister, thank you.
:29:40. > :29:42.You. Prime Minister Theresa May speaking to Andrew Neil in Downing
:29:43. > :29:43.Street, we can hear from the Brexit Minister from the Scottish
:29:44. > :29:54.Government, in our Edinburgh studio. You heard Theresa May now is not the
:29:55. > :29:58.time to talk about a second independence referendum, David
:29:59. > :30:05.Mundell said it shouldn't be talked about, not just until we know the
:30:06. > :30:10.details of Brexit, but after an implementation period. What is your
:30:11. > :30:13.reaction to that? Well we seem to have moved in two different
:30:14. > :30:18.directions. Theresa May didn't answer the question about when would
:30:19. > :30:21.be the time. In fact she didn't answer anything in the last half
:30:22. > :30:25.hour as far as I could see. We have heard the time scale and it confirm
:30:26. > :30:29.what is we have been saying for weeks that the decisions will be
:30:30. > :30:34.made and something will be available to be voted on within the two year
:30:35. > :30:39.period. She was clear about that. She indicated what we have known
:30:40. > :30:47.that not just the UK Parliament or the EU Parliament, but Parliaments
:30:48. > :30:50.across Europe will vote. What she has said is everybody else can have
:30:51. > :30:53.a choice and a vote, but the Scottish Parliament can't. That is
:30:54. > :30:58.democratically unacceptable and it will have to be resolved by
:30:59. > :31:03.negotiation, no matter what the Secretary of State thinks. David
:31:04. > :31:10.Davies has written to you, responding to your paper, Scotland
:31:11. > :31:13.in Europe, what is he saying. It is a long reference with a short
:31:14. > :31:18.reference to Scotland. I spoke to him on phone. He rang me to have a
:31:19. > :31:23.conversation about a range of issues out of today and tomorrow and the
:31:24. > :31:28.tomorrow the Great reform Bill paper is published and that will be a
:31:29. > :31:32.technical and difficult process. The UK Government have said they don't
:31:33. > :31:39.believe that Scotland can be a member of the EU and EFDA. But they
:31:40. > :31:43.don't match the work we have put in. The regrettable position that we are
:31:44. > :31:48.in is that the Prime Minister's calling for unity, but the UK
:31:49. > :31:53.Government have done nothing to foster a unity of purpose in the
:31:54. > :32:03.last seven months. To be clear, you said in that paper that you accepted
:32:04. > :32:09.that this idea of Scotland staying part of single market, via FDA
:32:10. > :32:13.depended on the British Government taking that case up. David Davies
:32:14. > :32:18.has said they're not going to do that? No that is clear from the
:32:19. > :32:24.Article 50 letter. The opportunity was to put Article 50 letter into a
:32:25. > :32:26.play with a reference to a difference yapted deal --
:32:27. > :32:36.differentiated deal. Your prefer to stay in the UK and have this deal
:32:37. > :32:40.with FDA. That is off the table? Unless there is a change of heart by
:32:41. > :32:43.the UK Government. The Prime Minister has sought confrontation
:32:44. > :32:47.and not compromise. We have sought compromise and the Prime Minister
:32:48. > :32:50.has created constitutional chaos in Scotland, in Northern Ireland and
:32:51. > :32:55.this afternoon we saw an extraordinary statement from the
:32:56. > :33:02.First Minister in Wales, which lambasted the UK Government. In a
:33:03. > :33:05.short nine months thepm has created a disaster right across the area.
:33:06. > :33:09.That should be something worth thinking about, considering she is
:33:10. > :33:13.meant to be in charge of the most difficult set of negotiations the UK
:33:14. > :33:20.has faced. There is a huge problem ahead. She said both in Parliament
:33:21. > :33:25.and in her writer to Donald Tusk, there could be a significant
:33:26. > :33:28.increase in powers for the devolved administrations in the UK,
:33:29. > :33:38.presumably at least with that, you are delighted? Well, if she said
:33:39. > :33:40.that unekwif cabby. But it said that the UK Government has an expectation
:33:41. > :33:50.that there would be a significant increase in powers. There is two
:33:51. > :33:56.problems. An expectedation effectation is not -- expectation is
:33:57. > :34:02.not tradeable on and when the white paper is published. We look to see
:34:03. > :34:06.if the frameworks will the transferred back to Scotland or kept
:34:07. > :34:10.at Westminster. Things like agriculture, fisheries, whole areas
:34:11. > :34:14.of justice. If it means that the UK Government is holding on to them and
:34:15. > :34:22.what is what the letter seems to look like. That will be a diminution
:34:23. > :34:27.of powers, no matter what thepm said. That why the Welsh and the
:34:28. > :34:32.Welsh First Minister are concerned. I spoke to the Welsh minister in
:34:33. > :34:37.Wales, and we are both worried about that. On this letter that you have
:34:38. > :34:44.received from David Davies and the phone call from him, you say that
:34:45. > :34:50.because of what they have said, you original idea in Scotland and Europe
:34:51. > :34:57.paper is off the table. Did he make any alternative suggestions for a
:34:58. > :35:02.special deal for Scotland? No, you have heard the Prime Minister and he
:35:03. > :35:05.said, we entered as one UK and we will leave. That shows a lack of
:35:06. > :35:11.understanding of what devolution has done in the last 43 years. But it
:35:12. > :35:14.doesn't actually tell you what the current constitutional position is.
:35:15. > :35:22.There is a range of powers in different places. It seep -- seems a
:35:23. > :35:26.simplistic view will be damaging to the UK. Because it doesn't
:35:27. > :35:31.understand how things work. Just as she doesn't seem to understand the
:35:32. > :35:36.importance of migration for example to key industries in Scotland. 90%
:35:37. > :35:41.of our population increase in the next ten years will come from EU
:35:42. > :35:45.migration. If that is choked off, there will be whole areas of our
:35:46. > :35:50.national life where we won't have people to work. That will be
:35:51. > :35:52.disastrous. Both the Prime Minister and the Scottish Secretary have made
:35:53. > :35:57.clear there will be no section 30 and the Scottish Secretary have made
:35:58. > :36:02.order at the moment. That they will not be entering into talks with the
:36:03. > :36:07.Scottish Government about the timing of a second independence referendum,
:36:08. > :36:11.David Mundell seemed to be suggesting it could be some
:36:12. > :36:16.considerable number of years in the future. I know you don't like that,
:36:17. > :36:20.but realistically, what can the Scottish Government do about it?
:36:21. > :36:26.Well, step by step, we will ensure that that is not the final word. We
:36:27. > :36:30.start by saying, they're creating an additional crisis to add to the
:36:31. > :36:34.crisis that exist. There has never been a moment in devolution where
:36:35. > :36:41.the UK Government has refused to have a Conference with a devolved
:36:42. > :36:46.administration. That is a new low. Whatever happens, there will have to
:36:47. > :36:53.be next. What the First Minister has said is we will inform the UK
:36:54. > :36:57.Government of the vote and the two parties voting together and if there
:36:58. > :37:00.is no movement on that, the First Minister will come back to
:37:01. > :37:08.Parliament and outline the options we have. What options do you have?
:37:09. > :37:11.The first option is to say that that's democratically unacceptable.
:37:12. > :37:15.But there are option and they will be used, because the Scottish
:37:16. > :37:20.Parliament has spoken. If the Prime Minister is a democrat, she has to
:37:21. > :37:23.accept that. You say there are options and many people in Scotland
:37:24. > :37:29.are concerned about this, they're worried about going into a period of
:37:30. > :37:33.great uncertainty, Nicola Sturgeon herself talked about this in the
:37:34. > :37:41.last few days, to put people's minds at rest, can you confirm right now
:37:42. > :37:45.that you will not hold a referendum without a section 30 order? Its not
:37:46. > :37:47.our intention to do anything that is contrary to the law or the
:37:48. > :37:53.constitution. That is not our intention. Our intention is to have
:37:54. > :37:59.proper negotiation. Of course people are concerned and the right way to
:38:00. > :38:07.move forward and the uncertainty has come from the decision to try and
:38:08. > :38:12.solve an internal Tory problem by having a referendum. We need to
:38:13. > :38:18.contain that uncertainty and we do it making sure the time table is as
:38:19. > :38:22.short as people. That time table should contain the referendum and
:38:23. > :38:28.the Brexit vote. No referendum without a section 30 order, what
:38:29. > :38:34.about legal position, I mean, is one of things you're considering that
:38:35. > :38:38.you could go to court and say that by simply ignoring the vote taken
:38:39. > :38:41.yesterday in the Scottish Parliament, that the British
:38:42. > :38:46.Government is acting outside the law? I don't want to escalate this
:38:47. > :38:53.beyond the discussion we need to have and the conversation and
:38:54. > :38:56.negotiatedion we need -- negotiatedion -- negotiation we need
:38:57. > :39:01.to have. Does your Government believe that there is any case for a
:39:02. > :39:06.legal challenge here? The Scottish Government believes there are steps
:39:07. > :39:10.that can and should be taken. We are not going to escalate it by
:39:11. > :39:15.speculation, not even with you. We are going to take it calmly a step
:39:16. > :39:22.at a time to make clear a democratic decision of a Parliament based on a
:39:23. > :39:25.manifesto commitment is binding. That's axe owe Mattick. That is the
:39:26. > :39:30.democratic fact. If the Prime Minister is trying to go into
:39:31. > :39:34.negotiations in Europe... If the Prime Minister is trying to go into
:39:35. > :39:37.negotiations in Europe and denying democracy, she is in a difficult
:39:38. > :39:44.position. I don't want to escalate this, it can be escalated, but let's
:39:45. > :39:49.do it calmly. I come back to this, there is nothing much you can do,
:39:50. > :39:55.the other option. You believe that, I don't. In time we will see which
:39:56. > :39:56.is correct. Could you withdraw co-operation from the
:39:57. > :39:58.is correct. Could you withdraw Government, with the British
:39:59. > :40:03.Government in the Brexit process. That has been talked about. I don't
:40:04. > :40:08.understand what that means, mraps you could explain. No, I'm not going
:40:09. > :40:12.to get involved in escalating this on TV or with you. I will say what I
:40:13. > :40:17.have said and the First Minister has said, the Parliament has voted,
:40:18. > :40:22.there is a democratic decision made, we now look to UK Government to
:40:23. > :40:25.decide on it. If they continue after the Easter recess, the First
:40:26. > :40:30.Minister will come back to the Parliament and we will then lay out
:40:31. > :40:34.our next steps. That is the right thing to do. The wrong thing is to
:40:35. > :40:37.our next steps. That is the right work it with speculation. Many
:40:38. > :40:43.people will think, what is wrong with what Theresa May is saying, it
:40:44. > :40:49.is common-sense to say leave it until we know what the Brexit deal
:40:50. > :40:54.is and how it will work. We don't need to be talking about this. Just
:40:55. > :40:59.wait and see. She is right we need to know the details of deal and she
:41:00. > :41:06.has confirmed when that will be. That will be in in 18 months to o'
:41:07. > :41:11.two years. The difficulty she places on everybody, is you can't hold a
:41:12. > :41:16.referendum by snapping your fingers. We are saying a section 0 order
:41:17. > :41:20.allow us to make the appropriate preparation. No one says it firing
:41:21. > :41:30.the starting gun on campaigning, but it puts in v us in that position. If
:41:31. > :41:34.you don't actually have a the section 30 Order in place now, you
:41:35. > :41:39.can't made the arrangements to have it at the time which means least
:41:40. > :41:45.uncertainty. The uncertainty is the time scale. The danger for you is
:41:46. > :41:50.you have lost the moral high ground, you could have waited a few years
:41:51. > :41:59.and said the people of Scotland are not happy, you have jumped in about
:42:00. > :42:06.two and a half years be people said they want to remain in the UK. A lot
:42:07. > :42:11.of people are saying, this is just a bit ridiculous and just game
:42:12. > :42:19.playing. Even people... That is not what happened. That not what they
:42:20. > :42:25.are saying. We started in June and said we will look at the options.
:42:26. > :42:32.The First Minister said it had to be the backstop if nothing else could
:42:33. > :42:37.be a arranged. I have spent weeks and trying to get a compromise deal
:42:38. > :42:42.and we produced a comprehensive programme for that and we got
:42:43. > :42:45.nowhere, because the UK Government would not compromiser negotiate.
:42:46. > :42:50.That is why we are in this position and that is the reality of the
:42:51. > :42:54.situation. You're now in a position, where Theresa May can claim to be
:42:55. > :43:02.speaking for the people of Scotland on the subject of a second refer
:43:03. > :43:08.dam, -- referendum more than you can. You in that sense on the wrong
:43:09. > :43:13.side of people of Scotland, now let me put to it you that Alex Salmond
:43:14. > :43:16.was never in that position until the day he lost the last referendum and
:43:17. > :43:22.he wouldn't have got himself into the position you and Nicola Sturgeon
:43:23. > :43:25.are in? The Scottish Parliament, the democratic institution of Scotland,
:43:26. > :43:30.voted yesterday to seek a section 30 order and indeed based on a
:43:31. > :43:36.manifesto commitment from the SNP that said the the trigger would be
:43:37. > :43:44.being dragged out of Europe. I can't see how that is on the wrong side of
:43:45. > :43:48.anybody. We have gone the extra dozens of miles to get a settlement
:43:49. > :43:55.and the Prime Minister is spreading chaos. I would appeal to her to
:43:56. > :43:59.start listening and negotiating. If you hold a referendum, will it be
:44:00. > :44:03.the SNP's position that Scotland should become a full member of the
:44:04. > :44:17.EU? ; That is exactly where we are. We would the Common fisheries policy
:44:18. > :44:23.and the Common agriculture policy? A member of the EU you have certain
:44:24. > :44:31.responsibilities, but we would discuss... To be a member of the EU
:44:32. > :44:38.you have to be a member of... The reality is on fishing, it is a
:44:39. > :44:42.subject we should talk about, the UK Government is already preparing to
:44:43. > :44:46.trade away fishing as it did in the 1970s, there is plenty of evidence
:44:47. > :44:50.of that. The future of the fishing industry under Brexit am
:44:51. > :44:55.particularly under this present Prime Minister faces that reality.
:44:56. > :44:58.Which currency would an independent Scotland have? We could go through
:44:59. > :45:03.these issues all-night but the right time is when we have the proposition
:45:04. > :45:13.in terms of what Brexit means and in terms of what independence means. I
:45:14. > :45:16.will come on and discuss those issues with you at that time until
:45:17. > :45:19.we are both blue in the face. Your critics will say that you have told
:45:20. > :45:22.the British Government it is not reasonable for them to have a chance
:45:23. > :45:26.to negotiate a deal on Brexit with a view, you have already demanded
:45:27. > :45:28.another referendum, but when you asked the most basic questions about
:45:29. > :45:32.another referendum, but when you what your independent Scotland would
:45:33. > :45:40.look like you say wait and see, it is not reasonable to ask is at the
:45:41. > :45:43.moment. Did you listen to the Prime Minister's interview? Repeatedly
:45:44. > :45:47.Andrew Neil asked her questions about substantial detail and she did
:45:48. > :45:49.not answer a single one of them. The reality is the lack of information
:45:50. > :46:04.in this is coming... The information together and have a
:46:05. > :46:07.case, we will put our case and there will be a proper debate, but nobody
:46:08. > :46:10.can tell me the Prime Minister is putting forward anything other than
:46:11. > :46:14.the most vague and thin of cases. Mike Russell, thank you for joining
:46:15. > :46:18.us. Earlier I spoke to Scottish Labour
:46:19. > :46:24.leader Kezia Dugdale, who was at the Welsh Assembly.
:46:25. > :46:28.Theresa May today spoke about a significant increase in the powers
:46:29. > :46:32.of the devolved administrations, including the Scottish parliament.
:46:33. > :46:37.Presumably he would welcome that? Very much so, but first of all I
:46:38. > :46:41.have to say how regrettable today is, it is deeply divisive for our
:46:42. > :46:44.country and I wish the result had been different. The Prime Minister
:46:45. > :46:48.earlier spoke about significant additional powers for the Scottish
:46:49. > :46:52.parliament and if she is true to her word that would be very welcome, I
:46:53. > :47:01.would like to see a reformed United Kingdom, I believe that is what
:47:02. > :47:04.Scots voted for. Two and a half years ago they voted to remain part
:47:05. > :47:08.of the UK but they wanted an alternative to the status quo. It is
:47:09. > :47:12.not the same thing, more powers, as staying in the single market. You
:47:13. > :47:16.have written a letter to Theresa May saying you want to stay in the
:47:17. > :47:20.single market, keep free movement of labour and, if necessary, there
:47:21. > :47:25.should be a separate Scottish deal providing bad. There is nothing in
:47:26. > :47:29.what was said to date to give you that? No, indeed, which is why
:47:30. > :47:38.Brexit is very worrying for the Scottish economy, Scottish jobs, the
:47:39. > :47:41.living standards of people in our country. I will continue to make the
:47:42. > :47:43.case, like Nicola Sturgeon, for why we should have free access to the
:47:44. > :47:45.single market, it is incredibly important so Scottish businesses can
:47:46. > :47:49.trade with the European neighbours and we need to make sure that the
:47:50. > :47:55.rights of EU nationals are protected in Scotland, I do not want then used
:47:56. > :47:59.as a bargaining chip. Equally we need to add knowledge how important
:48:00. > :48:05.being a member of the EU is to universities in Scotland. -- act
:48:06. > :48:08.knowledge. Given there is nothing in what Theresa May said today about
:48:09. > :48:13.staying in the single market, keeping free movement of labour,
:48:14. > :48:18.what you are asking for is pretty much the same as what Nicola
:48:19. > :48:22.Sturgeon is asking for. David Davies this afternoon has written to Mike
:48:23. > :48:26.Russell, the Scottish Government Brexit Secretary, rejecting the
:48:27. > :48:29.paper which the Scottish Government put to them which suggested staying
:48:30. > :48:34.in the single market and keeping free movement of labour. Given that,
:48:35. > :48:38.would you support the Scottish Parliament's call for a second
:48:39. > :48:43.independence referendum? It is deeply regrettable that the Tory
:48:44. > :48:45.Government has taken this approach, but not a surprise. What is
:48:46. > :49:01.abundantly clear is that however much and however damaging Brexit
:49:02. > :49:04.will be to the Scottish economy, it is not as bad as what independence
:49:05. > :49:06.would mean. Nicola Sturgeon has been looking for an excuse, another
:49:07. > :49:08.grievance, any opportunity to pursue a second independence referendum but
:49:09. > :49:11.she will not tell us what she wants to do with regards to the membership
:49:12. > :49:14.of the EU. At least Nicola Sturgeon has a strategy to try to exert
:49:15. > :49:19.leverage on the British Government and get what both she and you want.
:49:20. > :49:21.You don't appear to have any strategy other than write another
:49:22. > :49:25.letter, perhaps? strategy other than write another
:49:26. > :49:29.I don't accept that, neither do I accept that Nicola Sturgeon has a
:49:30. > :49:31.strategy to deal with Brexit. She has a campaign for independence,
:49:32. > :49:33.strategy to deal with Brexit. She that is her priority above governing
:49:34. > :49:46.for Scotland or making a case for what happens to
:49:47. > :49:49.the powers coming back from Brussels. We know you do not want
:49:50. > :49:51.another independence referendum, but EU support Theresa May's refusal to
:49:52. > :49:54.negotiate over the timing of one? Both I and Jeremy Corbyn have said
:49:55. > :49:55.we cannot countenance a second independence referendum before
:49:56. > :50:00.Brexit. The root of that is Nicola independence referendum before
:50:01. > :50:05.Sturgeon's own words when she said Scots deserved a choice and clarity
:50:06. > :50:06.over the options before them, we will not have that until after we
:50:07. > :50:11.leave the EU. Just a moment before, will not have that until after we
:50:12. > :50:16.I said Nicola Sturgeon has had three positions on Europe in the last
:50:17. > :50:20.week. I just want to be clear on this... Now she says we would
:50:21. > :50:28.reapply and sometimes you hear Alex Salmond... I want to be clear on
:50:29. > :50:31.your position. Nicola Sturgeon is one a second independence
:50:32. > :50:35.referendum, saying Scots should have a choice but she is unable to
:50:36. > :50:39.articulate what would happen on the issue of Europe, before we get to
:50:40. > :50:44.big questions like the currency, for example. Just to be clear, you
:50:45. > :50:48.clear, you say you support the British Government's refusal to
:50:49. > :50:53.allow a second referendum before Brexit actually happens, but at that
:50:54. > :50:58.point, for example when Nicola Sturgeon is talking about Spring
:50:59. > :51:03.2019, you would presumably, as you have said in the past, I accept that
:51:04. > :51:08.now the Scottish Parliament has voted for a second referendum, there
:51:09. > :51:12.should be one. Maybe not until then, but after that it is the duty of the
:51:13. > :51:17.British Government to allow one? The God I don't know how to be clearer
:51:18. > :51:21.with you, the Scottish Labour Party stands against a second independence
:51:22. > :51:24.referendum. Is Nicola Sturgeon insists on dragging us back to the
:51:25. > :51:28.argument of the past, we have made it clear we could not support but
:51:29. > :51:33.before Brexit. After that point we would not seek to block it. If you
:51:34. > :51:38.want your version of what should happen to have some credibility, the
:51:39. > :51:42.idea of the people's Constitutional assembly which comes up with an idea
:51:43. > :51:46.of a federal Britain, it only makes sense if there is a prospect of a
:51:47. > :51:52.Labour Government to implemented, but that is so far away that the
:51:53. > :51:56.only Labour MP in Scotland will not even serve as Shadow Scottish
:51:57. > :52:00.Secretary because he describes Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the
:52:01. > :52:05.party, in his words, as destroying the Labour Party. No one will take
:52:06. > :52:11.Scottish Labour seriously until you've stored -- sought this
:52:12. > :52:16.situation out. Will you sort it out? I have been in Cardiff University
:52:17. > :52:19.with a number of people from across the Labour movement, including
:52:20. > :52:23.Gordon Brown and a representative for Jeremy Corbyn. This is
:52:24. > :52:28.important, with Carwyn Jones and various other Labour figures across
:52:29. > :52:33.the UK, they collectively make the case for a federal solution to
:52:34. > :52:36.reform the UK. But it is not just us talking about this, there are people
:52:37. > :52:41.the length and breadth of Scotland and the UK that want to reject both
:52:42. > :52:46.forms of nationalism we are being presented with, the SNP version...
:52:47. > :52:50.Would you get Jeremy Corbyn and Iain Murray together to sort out the
:52:51. > :52:53.situation and at least have some credibility? You are the leader of
:52:54. > :52:58.the Labour Party in Scotland. The goal might credibility is to
:52:59. > :53:02.represent what the majority of Scots want, to remain part of the UK and
:53:03. > :53:07.have a close relationship with the rest of Europe. That is what I will
:53:08. > :53:12.continue to advocate. I am not alone in doing that, people across the
:53:13. > :53:16.labour movement and trade unions do not want to choose. They do not want
:53:17. > :53:27.to choose between the SNP or the hard -- hardline Tory Brexit. Thank
:53:28. > :53:31.you for joining us, Kezia Dugdale. In the studio is the leader of the
:53:32. > :53:35.Scottish Lib Dems, Willie Rennie, and co-convenor of the Scottish
:53:36. > :53:39.Greens, Patrick Harvie. Willie Rennie, you said you were not just
:53:40. > :53:44.against a referendum but you thought your MPs in Westminster should vote
:53:45. > :53:49.against one, is your view on that changed by the fact that the
:53:50. > :53:54.Scottish Parliament has now requested formally Section 30 order?
:53:55. > :53:59.No, we made it clear manifesto commitment that we would stand
:54:00. > :54:02.against independence, and another independence referendum. If you look
:54:03. > :54:09.at the mandate the SNP say they have, it is based on a campaign
:54:10. > :54:13.where they are using the European Union to get the referendum, but
:54:14. > :54:17.they can't guarantee, as we heard from Mike Russell earlier, to get
:54:18. > :54:21.the European Union as a whistle to the referendum. But a vote to the
:54:22. > :54:26.Scottish Parliament... That is the way democracy works. If it is a
:54:27. > :54:35.feeble mandate, there is no way I can supported. I know what you will
:54:36. > :54:38.say, but it does not matter. A vote in the Scottish parliament is a vote
:54:39. > :54:40.in the Scottish parliament. Labour and even the Conservatives are
:54:41. > :54:46.saying, or seem to be saying, we are and even the Conservatives are
:54:47. > :54:50.not ruling this out. You are the only one who is saying that somehow
:54:51. > :54:52.or other the vote is illegitimate. You can make your point about
:54:53. > :54:57.Patrick Harvie now! Bring it on. You can make your point about
:54:58. > :55:02.Patrick Harvie was very clear and honest, he said we would need a
:55:03. > :55:04.million signatures before it would trigger another independence
:55:05. > :55:07.referendum, that would be the threshold required. It was
:55:08. > :55:11.referenced in his manifesto, a speech following a year of the
:55:12. > :55:15.anniversary from the independence referendum. I think on that basis it
:55:16. > :55:22.is not unreasonable for us to continue... I should not need to
:55:23. > :55:26.remind you of all people but political parties sometimes go
:55:27. > :55:30.against what they say in manifestos. Boy, have we learned that lesson.
:55:31. > :55:38.Patrick Harvie has not. He has gone right against it. We are against
:55:39. > :55:44.independence, we are against another independence referendum. I have a
:55:45. > :55:47.right to reply at some point? Willie knows he misrepresents our
:55:48. > :55:51.manifesto, we said our preferred means of discussing future
:55:52. > :55:54.independence referendum was by that public participated measure, it was
:55:55. > :55:59.never supposed to be the only way it could happen. I would still prefer
:56:00. > :56:05.that we were in that situation. What has happened over the year... We did
:56:06. > :56:08.not say only, we said it was one means of triggering the debate. We
:56:09. > :56:12.never said it was the only way, we never said the Scottish Parliament
:56:13. > :56:17.should be stripped of its ability to make a choice. What happens when
:56:18. > :56:21.Nicola Sturgeon tells me I have to vote for it? You know as well
:56:22. > :56:25.anybody else in Scottish politics that we hope the SNP to account as
:56:26. > :56:29.much as any other party. A number of votes have gone against them because
:56:30. > :56:33.all of the opposition parties vote against them when we think they are
:56:34. > :56:38.wrong. The position now, what the UK Government has done over the last
:56:39. > :56:41.year, is not only hold a reckless referendum but take a narrow Leave
:56:42. > :56:45.mandate as a mandate for hard Brexit, which takes is way beyond
:56:46. > :56:51.what they said in their manifesto and the promises made even to leave
:56:52. > :56:55.voters. Scotland is stuck between a rock and a hard Brexit and the power
:56:56. > :57:00.needs to go back into the hands of the people. I want to move on to
:57:01. > :57:04.what happens next, Patrick Harvie. You are part of the pro-independence
:57:05. > :57:08.movement, the British Government has made it clear that not only will
:57:09. > :57:13.there be no Section 30 order, there will be no talks on the timing of
:57:14. > :57:17.when one might be. I spoke to Mike Russell about what some of the
:57:18. > :57:21.options might be, what options do you think there are for the Scottish
:57:22. > :57:24.Government and people like yourself who support independence? Is there
:57:25. > :57:29.anything you can do other than keep complaining? You explored some of
:57:30. > :57:33.the possibilities and I have not heard the Scottish Government yet
:57:34. > :57:38.spell out what those will be. Either forward to hearing about if the UK
:57:39. > :57:42.Government continue to dig in their heels. He ruled out a private
:57:43. > :57:47.referendum, you would agree with that? That is not the position
:57:48. > :57:50.anybody should want to be in. The idea of a referendum has to be based
:57:51. > :58:00.on an agreement on how the rules are conducted. He didn't, he said it is
:58:01. > :58:03.not our intention, that does not mean he is ruling it out. It was
:58:04. > :58:05.pretty clear that was a range of options that Mike Russell was
:58:06. > :58:07.contemplating, he did not want to go into it with you but he was
:58:08. > :58:12.seriously considering other methods, which I think is deeply regrettable.
:58:13. > :58:16.What it boils down to is that Scotland voted to stay in the UK,
:58:17. > :58:20.then by a higher margin just nine months ago to stay in the European
:58:21. > :58:25.Union. If we want to resolve that we cannot now ask Westminster to block
:58:26. > :58:32.Scotland's only remaining past EU membership.
:58:33. > :58:38.STUDIO: You have not give me your ideas as to what they can do. I am
:58:39. > :58:42.not in Government... Dream, just for a second. I could pretend I was in
:58:43. > :58:46.Government and was surrounded by the kind of legal advice that a minister
:58:47. > :58:51.is surrounded by and needs to have in order to explore... You raise the
:58:52. > :58:55.question about legal action, you explored about noncooperation with
:58:56. > :58:59.the Brexit legislation. You would need clear legal advice in order to
:59:00. > :59:02.give real answers to that, and I hope we hear more detail on what the
:59:03. > :59:06.options are. The UK Government needs to be put on
:59:07. > :59:11.the spot to recognise that it has failed to live up to the promises
:59:12. > :59:15.even to wait for a shared agreement across the UK before triggering
:59:16. > :59:19.Article 50, that was one of the earliest promises Theresa May made
:59:20. > :59:23.after the Brexit vote, she has completely abandon that, as well as
:59:24. > :59:29.forcing us into a hard Brexit which the Tory manifesto promised would
:59:30. > :59:33.never happen. At least Nicola Sturgeon Patrick Harvie have the
:59:34. > :59:36.bones of a strategy to exert some pressure on the British Government
:59:37. > :59:42.given that what it is about to do is not something they like. You do not
:59:43. > :59:45.like it any more than they do. We have a strategy. It is to make sure
:59:46. > :59:49.that the British people have the final say on whatever deal is... You
:59:50. > :59:53.have no way of getting that. Kuwait final say on whatever deal is... You
:59:54. > :59:57.for public pressure to influence this process. Look at the Iraq war,
:59:58. > :00:01.people with spitting at Charles Kennedy in the street before the
:00:02. > :00:05.Iraq war, after which they were standing with him -- you wait for
:00:06. > :00:09.public pressure to influence this process. Like the fuel dispute in
:00:10. > :00:17.nearly 2000s, public opinion changed and the politicians had to follow.
:00:18. > :00:18.We need to set down a process. Is that something you would support?
:00:19. > :00:22.With the best will in the world we that something you would support?
:00:23. > :00:26.might have been on the same march against the Iraq war, I spoke at one
:00:27. > :00:29.of the biggest demonstrations in Scottish history before the onset of
:00:30. > :00:34.the Iraq war, we were dragged to war against the will of the public. I
:00:35. > :00:39.think we will be dragged into a hard Brexit against public opinion.
:00:40. > :00:44.Forget independence, their idea is that when the deal is done and it
:00:45. > :00:48.should be put to the British people? I can understand why the Lib Dems
:00:49. > :00:52.and some of my Green Party of England and Wales colleagues make
:00:53. > :00:57.that case. What I cannot understand is why that would prevent exactly
:00:58. > :01:01.the same thing happening again, with Scotland voting Remain, other parts
:01:02. > :01:05.of the UK boating Leave and Scotland being dragged out of the European
:01:06. > :01:07.Union against our will, with rights of free movement and our social and
:01:08. > :01:15.environmental protections stripped away. Patrick is using the European
:01:16. > :01:20.issue to drive the vision not just... He is using it in Scotland
:01:21. > :01:23.and also the UK. I think it is unacceptable. We don't need more
:01:24. > :01:27.division, we should be trying to bring together to tackle the big
:01:28. > :01:31.challenges that Brexit faces. That is the challenge that I think all
:01:32. > :01:36.politicians had to do. I want to clear up the mess of Brexit, I don't
:01:37. > :01:42.want a compounded with another a lot of division within dependence, that
:01:43. > :01:47.is what I will always oppose. But putting off the vote would extended
:01:48. > :01:50.to four, five or more years of uncertainty, let's deal with it in
:01:51. > :01:52.this period and give people the power back.
:01:53. > :01:57.Thank you, that is all we have time for. There will be Brexit, they
:01:58. > :01:59.might be more devolution of power to the Scottish parliament but maybe
:02:00. > :02:00.another independence referendum.