0:00:15 > 0:00:18Hello and welcome again to Conversations.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21My guest today is a woman whose journey through life
0:00:21 > 0:00:24has taken her from a convent school education in Bath
0:00:24 > 0:00:26to the benches of the House of Commons,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29from the offices of government to the stage of the Royal Opera House
0:00:29 > 0:00:33and the Strictly Come Dancing studio.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Somewhere along the way, this once-controversial political figure
0:00:36 > 0:00:39has veered dangerously close to becoming a national treasure.
0:00:39 > 0:00:43She once described herself as the Westminster oddball,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46who was so unaccountably popular in the country.
0:00:46 > 0:00:47She is Ann Widdecombe.
0:00:47 > 0:00:51- Ann Widdecombe, welcome back... - Thank you.- ..to Westminster.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56When you come back, does it feel like the return of the native?
0:00:56 > 0:00:58- Do you think this is your home? - No, not at all.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00I got the point of exit right.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04If I'd gone earlier, I would have missed it.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07If I'd gone later, I would have been very jaded.
0:01:07 > 0:01:08I actually got the point of leaving right
0:01:08 > 0:01:12and therefore I've left
0:01:12 > 0:01:15and just as when I had finished with politics,
0:01:15 > 0:01:18I accepted that I'd left and that I could go on and do things
0:01:18 > 0:01:22like Strictly, etc, so now this is a part of my past,
0:01:22 > 0:01:24but it's not a part of my present.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26- We're at the start of a new political term.- We are.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28Is there not part of you that thinks,
0:01:28 > 0:01:30"Well, I'd like to be in there, in the fray"?
0:01:30 > 0:01:31Even if it was in the House of Lords...
0:01:31 > 0:01:33Well, I'm profoundly grateful
0:01:33 > 0:01:35that I wasn't there during the period of coalition.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40- I don't think I would've done well in coalition at all.- Why not?
0:01:41 > 0:01:45I don't like not knowing where we're going.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47I think when a government's been elected,
0:01:47 > 0:01:50you want a programme, you want to set that programme out.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53When you're in coalition, very often the tail is wagging the dog,
0:01:53 > 0:01:55but I will add that I thought
0:01:55 > 0:01:58the Liberals suffered quite unfairly from being in coalition.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01My view was it was the responsible thing for everybody to do.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03I mean, I thought Cameron was right
0:02:03 > 0:02:06because the economy was in such a parlous state.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08If you remember, there was no money left,
0:02:08 > 0:02:10according to a departing Labour minister.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14- That's Liam Byrne's famous note. - Indeed. "No money left," he said.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18And it was not a situation in what you wanted was to have
0:02:18 > 0:02:21a minority government for, say, six months
0:02:21 > 0:02:23and then another general election.
0:02:23 > 0:02:25I don't think the markets would have stood it.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27So I thought he and Clegg were right to say,
0:02:27 > 0:02:30"OK, we'll manage a coalition," but of course,
0:02:30 > 0:02:34that was never going to be popular with the followers of either side
0:02:34 > 0:02:38and I think the Liberals paid for it disproportionately badly.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40- So you've no regrets?- None.
0:02:40 > 0:02:45You wouldn't like to come back if the call was to say, "Oh, Ann,
0:02:45 > 0:02:47"we need you come to come back to be in the House of Lords?"
0:02:47 > 0:02:50- Would you come back? - Oh, of course I would have done.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52Yes, of course I would have done
0:02:52 > 0:02:55and I don't think I'm revealing anything too much when I say that
0:02:55 > 0:02:59initially I was hopeful that that was going to happen.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01But it didn't, and, as I say, you know,
0:03:01 > 0:03:04I can always accept when something is over,
0:03:04 > 0:03:06so I settled down to a new life.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09And your new life, is that the life of a celebrity?
0:03:09 > 0:03:11Do you think of yourself as a celebrity?
0:03:11 > 0:03:12No, I don't think of myself as a celebrity.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14It's the most ghastly word.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Anyway, I'm never quite sure what a celebrity is.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19I mean, when I was growing up, you were celebrated for doing something.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23You were a celebrity if you were Captain Scott,
0:03:23 > 0:03:26not that he was in my time, or Edmund Hillary, you know,
0:03:26 > 0:03:30you were a celebrity if you had done something like that.
0:03:30 > 0:03:32But now it's used quite vacuously,
0:03:32 > 0:03:36sometimes to describe people who have done nothing at all.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39They've just come onto the scene by way of a reality programme.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42Do you think your appearance on Strictly Come Dancing
0:03:42 > 0:03:45gave you that national treasure status?
0:03:45 > 0:03:49Did you feel people reacting to you in a different way?
0:03:49 > 0:03:53I think a lot of people were surprised because, of course,
0:03:53 > 0:03:54when you're a politician,
0:03:54 > 0:03:56it isn't appropriate to do some things.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58I was asked to do Strictly Come Dancing for years
0:03:58 > 0:04:00while I was actually in the House of Commons.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02I said, "No, absolutely not."
0:04:02 > 0:04:05Time-wise, dignity-wise,
0:04:05 > 0:04:08it wouldn't have been remotely appropriate.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11So that is a side of you that you can't show.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13Certainly I wouldn't have gone into pantomime
0:04:13 > 0:04:14while I was in the House of Commons.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16I was offered that as well at one point,
0:04:16 > 0:04:19so you do need to keep the two things separate.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21If you're doing a serious job of work,
0:04:21 > 0:04:22you need to be a serious person,
0:04:22 > 0:04:26you need to present a serious aspect to the electorate,
0:04:26 > 0:04:32but when that's over, then by all means have fun and, you know,
0:04:32 > 0:04:35if you've got something you want to do, go and do it.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39Isn't a strange British phenomenon, though,
0:04:39 > 0:04:43where people who've often had quite a controversial career,
0:04:43 > 0:04:46sometimes people who'd had quite challenging views
0:04:46 > 0:04:47and they've challenged the status quo
0:04:47 > 0:04:50and they've challenged people's thinking,
0:04:50 > 0:04:54end up being absorbed by the Establishment
0:04:54 > 0:04:58and they become national treasures and it's almost then as though
0:04:58 > 0:05:00we don't have to listen to their challenging views any more
0:05:00 > 0:05:02because we've put them in a different category?
0:05:02 > 0:05:05Well, the interesting thing is that I still do quite
0:05:05 > 0:05:07a lot of political interviews and I've still got
0:05:07 > 0:05:10a weekly column in a national newspaper,
0:05:10 > 0:05:14so I do still put forth political and general views
0:05:14 > 0:05:17and I haven't abandoned doing that
0:05:17 > 0:05:20and there are people certainly who leaving the Commons
0:05:20 > 0:05:25wouldn't dream of going into, if you like, the showbiz side of things.
0:05:25 > 0:05:26They just wouldn't do it.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29Now, you were a huge hit on that programme
0:05:29 > 0:05:30and it confirmed the fact that a lot of people
0:05:30 > 0:05:33are really interested in you and they're intrigued by you.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Do you understand why you're such an interesting figure?
0:05:37 > 0:05:39Not really, not really.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42I mean, I spent 23 years as a politician,
0:05:42 > 0:05:47which I had causes that I fought and offices that I had to discharge
0:05:47 > 0:05:51and I don't really understand why there was suddenly
0:05:51 > 0:05:55that huge swell of warmth as there was when I did Strictly.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57You could feel it in the very first programme.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00I did a very clodhopping waltz,
0:06:00 > 0:06:04I did look a bit happier than Ed Balls managed to look,
0:06:04 > 0:06:07but I did a really pedestrian waltz and people loved it.
0:06:08 > 0:06:13Would the young Ann Widdecombe in school have thought
0:06:13 > 0:06:16- that this was the sort of career she was going to have?- If you...
0:06:16 > 0:06:18Never mind school -
0:06:18 > 0:06:20if you had told me in the spring of 2010,
0:06:20 > 0:06:23when I was getting ready to leave Parliament,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26if you'd said to me, then, "Well, Ann, this is how it's going to go.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28"You'll be dancing for three months on prime-time television,
0:06:28 > 0:06:31"then you're going to be touring the entire UK
0:06:31 > 0:06:34"in a live dance show with Craig Revel Horwood,
0:06:34 > 0:06:35"then you'll be going into pantomime,
0:06:35 > 0:06:37"and oh, yes, by the way,
0:06:37 > 0:06:39"you're also going to be on at the Royal Opera House,
0:06:39 > 0:06:42I'd have said, "Lie down and have an aspirin."
0:06:42 > 0:06:45I wouldn't have believed it then, never mind when I was at school.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48So what were your aspirations when you were at school?
0:06:48 > 0:06:53To be a politician. I had political aspirations very early on -
0:06:53 > 0:06:55initially, for all the wrong reasons,
0:06:55 > 0:06:58cos I grew up in the post-war generation,
0:06:58 > 0:07:03thus very influenced by Churchill and the immediate past history
0:07:03 > 0:07:07and seriously believed when I was 13 or 14
0:07:07 > 0:07:09that all politicians were like Churchill.
0:07:09 > 0:07:10I mean, now I say I wish,
0:07:10 > 0:07:13but that's what I believed then.
0:07:13 > 0:07:14So I was very inspired by that.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16By the time I was 20,
0:07:16 > 0:07:20I had a much more realistic appreciation of what it was about,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23but the ambition remained because by then,
0:07:23 > 0:07:25I was very driven to fight socialism.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28Of course, if you say that to an 18-year-old today,
0:07:28 > 0:07:31they look you as if you've just started speaking Greek or something.
0:07:31 > 0:07:33You know, it means nothing,
0:07:33 > 0:07:37but in our day socialism wasn't New Labour, it was neo-communism.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41So, did your parents consciously seek to influence
0:07:41 > 0:07:43your political views, do you think?
0:07:43 > 0:07:46No, I don't think so, but people talked politics at home.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49You know, it was never a taboo subject or a strange subject
0:07:49 > 0:07:51or something that they weren't interested in.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55We talked politics at home and largely, as I say,
0:07:55 > 0:07:57it was Conservative politics.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01For example, you know, we were a family that believed very strongly
0:08:01 > 0:08:05in grammar schools, very strongly in grammar schools.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10The comprehensives were being talked about in the early '60s
0:08:10 > 0:08:15and when I was I was listening, if you like, to the conversation,
0:08:15 > 0:08:20and I knew that I believed that people should have the opportunity
0:08:20 > 0:08:22to grow tall,
0:08:22 > 0:08:26so there were different things around and, of course,
0:08:26 > 0:08:28what everybody forgets,
0:08:28 > 0:08:31cos it's nearly 30 years since the Berlin Wall came down,
0:08:31 > 0:08:32we were in the Cold War.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36- Mmm.- You know, the Russians were regarded as a serious threat.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38We were in the space race.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40We even had our own little Sputniks,
0:08:40 > 0:08:44you know, we were in the space race. It was a different world altogether.
0:08:45 > 0:08:50These all sound like quite serious dinner table conversation topics.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53- Was it a happy childhood? - It was a very happy childhood.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57It's one... If not the greatest blessing...
0:08:57 > 0:09:01I mean, one is obviously health, but a very close second to that
0:09:01 > 0:09:05comes a happy childhood and I think if you have a happy childhood,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08you're very well equipped indeed to face life and we did.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12It was a nomadic childhood because I was with an Admiralty family.
0:09:12 > 0:09:13We still called it that then.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16It wasn't the MoD (Naval), it was the Admiralty,
0:09:16 > 0:09:18so we moved around every two to three years,
0:09:18 > 0:09:22so I'd been to five different schools, for example,
0:09:22 > 0:09:23by the time I was 11.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27I spent three years in Singapore, so we moved around
0:09:27 > 0:09:33a great deal, but, nevertheless, it felt very stable and very safe.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36- And you were close to your parents...- Yes.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38..all the way through your life, weren't you?
0:09:38 > 0:09:41Yes, I was and there is that wonderful period when
0:09:41 > 0:09:44they're no longer looking after you and you're not yet looking
0:09:44 > 0:09:48after them when you really get to know each other as human beings,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51as opposed to just the parent-child relationship,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54but, yes, I was and when my father died,
0:09:54 > 0:09:55my mother came to live with me.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59- Did you have to work hard on managing that relationship?- No.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Were there difficulties or a generation gap?
0:10:02 > 0:10:05Oh, I'm sure there was a generation gap, because there always is.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07I mean, that's part of family dynamic,
0:10:07 > 0:10:11but I also had a grandmother living with us when I was growing up, so if
0:10:11 > 0:10:14you want to put it in those terms, there was a double generation gap.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16And she told me fascinating stories
0:10:16 > 0:10:19which I now wish I'd paid much more attention to
0:10:19 > 0:10:23and are one of the reasons why I did the series on this Victorians
0:10:23 > 0:10:25or I did the programme on the Victorians,
0:10:25 > 0:10:29was to try and see something of what Gran had seen around her.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33How difficult was it later on when you had to be, as you say,
0:10:33 > 0:10:35looking after your parents?
0:10:35 > 0:10:38You've moved from that stage where they can be friends and companions
0:10:38 > 0:10:40and then you're having to juggle all sorts of demands
0:10:40 > 0:10:43and in effect be a carer as well?
0:10:44 > 0:10:49Yes, it was quite difficult, but neither parent really declined
0:10:49 > 0:10:54until the last two years of his and her life, neither.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58So I didn't have a long period that a lot of people have to go through
0:10:58 > 0:11:00when the parents are either physically weak
0:11:00 > 0:11:03or they're dementing or whatever it might be.
0:11:03 > 0:11:07But obviously responsibilities come along and I'd always said that
0:11:07 > 0:11:10if I had to, I would put them before my own career
0:11:10 > 0:11:14and indeed I was always glad that I left the front bench when I did
0:11:14 > 0:11:16cos it gave me...
0:11:16 > 0:11:18My mother was by then living with me
0:11:18 > 0:11:22and it gave me those extra years, not entirely with her,
0:11:22 > 0:11:24cos I was still in Parliament, but far more with her
0:11:24 > 0:11:27than I could ever have been if I was on the front bench.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30- Now, let's go back in time a bit. So you had your happy childhood...- Yes.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32- ..then you went to Birmingham University...- Read Latin.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35..and you read Latin and then when you left Birmingham,
0:11:35 > 0:11:37- you started all over again?- Mmm.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41Now, you went to Oxford and you did an undergraduate degree.
0:11:41 > 0:11:42Why did you start again?
0:11:42 > 0:11:48I'd always imagined that I was going to spend six years at university
0:11:48 > 0:11:51because I had intended to do a PhD
0:11:51 > 0:11:55in classics, in some aspect of Roman history,
0:11:55 > 0:11:57and I was by then getting very, very interested in politics
0:11:57 > 0:11:59and I thought, "Well, look, I was going to do
0:11:59 > 0:12:01"these other three years anyway..."
0:12:01 > 0:12:04my parents were already prepared for the fact that I was going to do
0:12:04 > 0:12:08another three years, "..instead of doing the PhD,
0:12:08 > 0:12:12"why not do something political?" which meant starting again,
0:12:12 > 0:12:14because I didn't have any qualifications in politics
0:12:14 > 0:12:16or economics or anything like that.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19And I thought, "Well, if I can get into Oxford
0:12:19 > 0:12:21"and also have the Oxford Union
0:12:21 > 0:12:24"and the contacts and all rest of it, it'll be well worth doing,"
0:12:24 > 0:12:25or Cambridge, or Cambridge.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29So that's really why I decided to do it.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31So the Oxford Union is the famous debating society
0:12:31 > 0:12:33at Oxford University that's produced...
0:12:33 > 0:12:37- Regarded as a political nursery, yes.- ..produced...- William Hague.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40I mean, do you think you'd have been a politician if you hadn't
0:12:40 > 0:12:42had that Oxford Union experience?
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Oh, yes, because it works this way round.
0:12:45 > 0:12:50It isn't that people who do well in the Union become politicians,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53it's that people who want to become politicians strive to do well
0:12:53 > 0:12:55in the Union.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59That is the way round that the flow of causation works.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01So it is a political nursery.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04Anybody with an iota of political ambition goes for it big time,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07- though there are exceptions. - Tony Blair didn't.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11Tony Blair didn't. And Shirley Williams didn't.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14Well, let's have a look at you in the nursery.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17If you have a comprehensive school,
0:13:17 > 0:13:21even if it's cross streamed with abilities ranging from people
0:13:21 > 0:13:26who are very bright indeed to people who, academically speaking,
0:13:26 > 0:13:30are not bright at all, I maintain that it's grossly unfair
0:13:30 > 0:13:34on those children who aren't particularly bright.
0:13:34 > 0:13:35Whereas segregate them,
0:13:35 > 0:13:39give them an education suited to their particular needs
0:13:39 > 0:13:41and they will feel their place in society,
0:13:41 > 0:13:44they will feel what they are being educated for.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51- Do you think you've changed much since then?- Not much. Not much.
0:13:51 > 0:13:55I don't look quite as good as I looked then,
0:13:55 > 0:13:59but in terms of debating style, I don't think that much.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03As you will have seen there, I wasn't reading from a script.
0:14:03 > 0:14:04So you enjoyed debating.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08Have you ever, either then or since,
0:14:08 > 0:14:10gone into a debate thinking one thing
0:14:10 > 0:14:14and then heard a speech and it's made you change your mind?
0:14:14 > 0:14:18No, no one speech has ever made me change my mind.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20I mean, speeches give you pause for thought.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23There's something terribly wrong if you listen to a argument
0:14:23 > 0:14:26and you've dismissed it even before you start,
0:14:26 > 0:14:28you do need to listen to arguments.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30I mean, over time, things change.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33Ten years ago, I wouldn't necessarily have voted Brexit.
0:14:33 > 0:14:39I certainly did this time and I would have begun with the view that,
0:14:39 > 0:14:43as far as possible, we ought to preserve Sunday as a day apart
0:14:43 > 0:14:48and you shouldn't have Sunday trading, looked at the realities,
0:14:48 > 0:14:53listened to the debate and came up with a compromise option.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57So, yes, I mean, I think arguments influence you,
0:14:57 > 0:14:59but it's very slow, it's very gradual.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02As I say to people, you haven't thought something through
0:15:02 > 0:15:04if your mind's going to be changed on the spot like that.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06You just haven't thought it through,
0:15:06 > 0:15:09but if you've thought something through and you've reasoned yourself
0:15:09 > 0:15:12to a conclusion, it will only be a very slow erosion that takes you
0:15:12 > 0:15:16from that and generally brought about by experience.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19So is your certainty,
0:15:19 > 0:15:21and I think we can say you're a pretty certain person -
0:15:21 > 0:15:24you seem to approach issues... By the time you're willing to speak,
0:15:24 > 0:15:26you're pretty certain and you're not going to be shifted.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28Where does that come from?
0:15:28 > 0:15:31Does that come from your religious education
0:15:31 > 0:15:33and your religious experience
0:15:33 > 0:15:36or does it come from your long education at university?
0:15:36 > 0:15:40Certainly I was always taught, both at home and at school,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43to say what you think, say what you believe.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47Say it with respect, but say it, you know.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50If you prefer a poem and the rest of the class prefers another one,
0:15:50 > 0:15:52doesn't matter. You prefer that one.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55And if we did that, you'd always be praised at school.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59If you were the odd one out, they'd always say, "That's brave."
0:15:59 > 0:16:03So I grew up with the idea that it's OK to be different,
0:16:03 > 0:16:08it's OK as long as I know why I've got this particular view.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11But I've always said, "Look, if you hold a view,
0:16:11 > 0:16:14"what is the point of holding it if you don't stick by it?
0:16:14 > 0:16:18"What's the point in having reasoned yourself to that conclusion,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21"having thought about it, having internally or externally
0:16:21 > 0:16:23"debated it and you arrive at a view,
0:16:23 > 0:16:25"and then you keep quiet about it?"
0:16:25 > 0:16:27What's the point of that? What is the point of that?
0:16:27 > 0:16:31But now we live in an age in which you really do have to keep quiet
0:16:31 > 0:16:34and the only people who don't have to are the parliamentarians.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38We can say what we like, we can be against gay marriage,
0:16:38 > 0:16:42we can be against abortion, we can want to limit immigration,
0:16:42 > 0:16:44we can say what we like.
0:16:44 > 0:16:50The ordinary citizen is much less blessed these days
0:16:50 > 0:16:54and you can be disciplined at work for something as simple as wearing
0:16:54 > 0:16:57a tiny Christian symbol.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59I do this quite openly,
0:16:59 > 0:17:01why shouldn't everybody be able to do it quite openly?
0:17:01 > 0:17:05Political correctness silences a great, you know,
0:17:05 > 0:17:09a great body of thought and you actually get people saying to you...
0:17:09 > 0:17:12I mean, bright, intelligent people who could hold their own
0:17:12 > 0:17:15anywhere saying, "Of course, but you can't say that these days."
0:17:15 > 0:17:17And I think, "Yes, you can."
0:17:17 > 0:17:20If that's what you think and we do live in a free society,
0:17:20 > 0:17:22and I'm now beginning to wonder if we do,
0:17:22 > 0:17:24but if you do live in a free society,
0:17:24 > 0:17:26this isn't the Soviet Union,
0:17:26 > 0:17:29you shouldn't be constrained by state orthodoxy.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32You should be able to say what you individually think
0:17:32 > 0:17:36and if it's unpopular, you should stand your ground and if you can't
0:17:36 > 0:17:39stand your ground, then, yes, by all means, shut up.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42I noticed then that when you're talking about parliamentarians,
0:17:42 > 0:17:46- you said we...- Yes.- ..so in spite of leaving it all behind...
0:17:46 > 0:17:49- That's true.- ..you're still thinking of yourself there.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51I very often when I'm describing the way they vote,
0:17:51 > 0:17:55I'd very often hear myself saying, "And the way we vote in..."
0:17:55 > 0:17:58Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's 23 years speaking.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00It took you quite a while to get here.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03You fought a couple of election campaigns before you were
0:18:03 > 0:18:06selected for the seat that returned you to Westminster.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08Did you encounter a lot of sexism?
0:18:08 > 0:18:11Were people not willing to have a young female candidate?
0:18:11 > 0:18:14I think I would have encountered it if I'd looked for it.
0:18:14 > 0:18:15I never looked for it.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Occasionally it came out and there was one which I always quote.
0:18:18 > 0:18:22I went up for interview for one of the Sunderland seats,
0:18:22 > 0:18:27I can't remember now if it was South or North, but it was one of them,
0:18:27 > 0:18:29and one of the women - it always is the women -
0:18:29 > 0:18:33one of the women on the interview panel said to me...
0:18:33 > 0:18:37And in those days it's necessary to say that I was 6 stone 12,
0:18:37 > 0:18:41and I stand just about over five feet high, so she said to me, "Oh,"
0:18:41 > 0:18:44and she actually drew a triangle in the air,
0:18:44 > 0:18:48"you're very small and frail - are you sure you're up to it?"
0:18:48 > 0:18:50When I went out, there in the anteroom
0:18:50 > 0:18:52was a decidedly undersized man
0:18:52 > 0:18:56and I bet she didn't ask him that, but I never looked for it.
0:18:56 > 0:19:01And I went into Parliament expecting to be taken on my own merits.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04It never occurred to me that I was a "woman MP",
0:19:04 > 0:19:07I was an MP who happened to be a woman,
0:19:07 > 0:19:10but I wasn't this peculiar thing called a woman MP,
0:19:10 > 0:19:12you know, some great curiosity,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15therefore I never found a problem,
0:19:15 > 0:19:17but about six months after all the Blair Babes came in,
0:19:17 > 0:19:21101 of them, you might as well have had 101 Dalmatians,
0:19:21 > 0:19:25and they came in and one of them came up to me in a corridor
0:19:25 > 0:19:26and said to me,
0:19:26 > 0:19:30"Oh, Ann, isn't it horrible how the men are so rude to us?"
0:19:30 > 0:19:32And I said, "Yes,
0:19:32 > 0:19:35"and isn't it horrible how they're so rude to each other?"
0:19:35 > 0:19:36And she hadn't thought of that,
0:19:36 > 0:19:40she just been roughed up in the chamber, she assumed it was
0:19:40 > 0:19:43because she was a woman, in fact, it was because she was useless.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45So I never went around looking for problems,
0:19:45 > 0:19:47therefore I never found them.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49The only problem I ever found as a woman MP was
0:19:49 > 0:19:50there were insufficient loos.
0:19:53 > 0:19:57Most of the political parties now have campaigns to encourage
0:19:57 > 0:19:59more women to stand for Parliament,
0:19:59 > 0:20:01- would you have sought the help of one of those groups?- No.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05I have no problem at all with encouraging women to stand.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09My problem is when encouragement turns into positive
0:20:09 > 0:20:13discrimination because positive discrimination is another way
0:20:13 > 0:20:16of talking about negative discrimination against men.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19And I believe that every woman in Parliament should have the right
0:20:19 > 0:20:23to look every man in Parliament, downwards,
0:20:23 > 0:20:26if the man is Prime Minister, you know...
0:20:26 > 0:20:30from the Prime Minister all the way down to the newest MP and to know
0:20:30 > 0:20:33that she got there on exactly the same basis as he did.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37And if she got there because her path was artificially smoothed,
0:20:37 > 0:20:39she is a second-class citizen.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42- Do you think of yourself as a feminist?- No.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45I was a '70s feminist rather than a '90s feminist.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49The '70s feminists wanted equality of opportunity.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53I always amaze the next generation down when I talk to them
0:20:53 > 0:20:56and I say, "Look, I can remember when it was perfectly lawful for
0:20:56 > 0:20:59"an employer to advertise a job and underneath would be two rates
0:20:59 > 0:21:04"of pay, one for men and one for women and that was lawful."
0:21:04 > 0:21:07And it was perfectly lawful for an employer to say,
0:21:07 > 0:21:09"No women need apply."
0:21:09 > 0:21:12It was lawful for a landlord to refuse to rent property to a woman.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15It was lawful to turn down a woman for a mortgage.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19These things were lawful when I was graduating.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23So in those days, all I wanted was equality of opportunity.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25Did that make you angry?
0:21:25 > 0:21:28Well, what I wanted... it made me determined.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31I wanted equality of opportunity.
0:21:31 > 0:21:35What I and other '70s feminists wanted was - give us the same
0:21:35 > 0:21:38opportunities and we will show you we are as good as
0:21:38 > 0:21:41or perhaps even better than the men.
0:21:41 > 0:21:44'90s feminism had changed completely.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46It was then a massive whinge.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50And a demand for all sorts of concessions to be made.
0:21:50 > 0:21:56It was more or less saying actually, we failed on equal ground.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59Now we want the playing field tilted towards us.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03We want positive discrimination, we want this, we want that.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05No, it's not what I see as equality.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08And in fact, I think it's pathetic, pathetic.
0:22:10 > 0:22:12So, how were you received
0:22:12 > 0:22:15when you did get into the House of Commons in 1987?
0:22:15 > 0:22:17That was when Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20Yes. Yes, I got the last three years of Thatcher.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24- So what was the mood then? - The mood was extremely upbeat.
0:22:24 > 0:22:29I mean, we were in the middle of the Lawson boom, if you think about it.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33We had just won a third term which, you know,
0:22:33 > 0:22:35in those days was quite something to have done.
0:22:35 > 0:22:40We were very, very buoyant and we became even more buoyant as
0:22:40 > 0:22:44it was clear that the Cold War was coming to an end.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47The future suddenly looked very bright.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50Gorbachev looked human compared to the miseries that we'd had in
0:22:50 > 0:22:52the Kremlin before.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56So there was a huge optimism about, an economic optimism,
0:22:56 > 0:23:00a party political optimism, an international optimism.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03It was a very, very buoyant time.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05It was also the time when everybody believed
0:23:05 > 0:23:07they were going to be a millionaire by the time they were 30,
0:23:07 > 0:23:10you know, there was huge enterprise.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15There was an enormous enterprise culture in the economy at that time.
0:23:15 > 0:23:21So, it's a time I remember with some affection but of course it
0:23:21 > 0:23:23didn't last and what I always say,
0:23:23 > 0:23:26and I say this to my great-nephews and great-nieces,
0:23:26 > 0:23:30"Look, good times and bad times have one thing in common,
0:23:30 > 0:23:31"they never last."
0:23:31 > 0:23:34- Was it exciting?- Oh, very.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37But I suspect new MPs always find it exciting, always.
0:23:37 > 0:23:42I remember sitting in the House of Commons, the members' dining room
0:23:42 > 0:23:46in the House of Commons and listening to two older MPs.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50There was an MP called Gilroy Bevan
0:23:50 > 0:23:56and John Butterfill, who had gone on into my time quite a lot.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00And sitting at lunch with them and they were discussing when
0:24:00 > 0:24:02they were going to leave.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06And I thought, "How can they be talking about leaving?
0:24:06 > 0:24:07"They don't want to go out.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10"They only ones to go out feet first, surely?
0:24:10 > 0:24:13"Why are they having this discussion?"
0:24:13 > 0:24:16And then in my last term I remember talking to Danny Kawczynski,
0:24:16 > 0:24:18who was a new MP,
0:24:18 > 0:24:21talking about leaving and he was saying, "I can't imagine leaving,"
0:24:21 > 0:24:25so I think it's always exciting for a new MP and it should be.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29Now, you were there for one of the great moments, I suppose,
0:24:29 > 0:24:31of political history of the late 20th century.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34- The downfall of...- Of Thatcher. - ..of Mrs Thatcher.
0:24:34 > 0:24:38I'm not sure... Has there ever been a time really to compare with that?
0:24:38 > 0:24:40Well, not in my time.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42I mean, there may have been in the past history.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44I'm sure that was.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46We forget now that Churchill was, you know, hanging by a thread
0:24:46 > 0:24:49at one point when the war was going badly.
0:24:49 > 0:24:50We forget that.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52But certainly in my lifetime,
0:24:52 > 0:24:56no, there's never been a moment quite like that one.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59And it stirred up a huge amount of emotion.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02The men were all very upset.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04They weren't just angry, they were terribly upset.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07I've never mopped up so many male tears in Westminster as I did
0:25:07 > 0:25:09during the fall of Thatcher.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12But also there was the sense of well, history is about to change.
0:25:14 > 0:25:15And a sense of disbelief.
0:25:15 > 0:25:16I was quite disbelieving.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19I thought, "Look, we've achieved all of this.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22"And we've done all of this thanks to this one person.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24"And now we're going to get rid of her?"
0:25:24 > 0:25:30But the Tory party had in those days a real in-built sense of survival.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33We were doing very badly in the polls,
0:25:33 > 0:25:35largely because of the poll tax.
0:25:35 > 0:25:37We were doing very badly.
0:25:37 > 0:25:39We sniffed defeat on the horizon.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42We weren't going to do it. We weren't going to do it.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44And indeed, we got another term as a result of not doing it but
0:25:44 > 0:25:46that wasn't how I saw it at the time.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49At the time I was absolutely livid.
0:25:49 > 0:25:50- You were livid?- Livid.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53Did you feel sympathy for Mrs Thatcher?
0:25:53 > 0:25:55- Did you...- I felt outrage on her behalf because I felt
0:25:55 > 0:25:58she had done so much and achieved so much, I mean,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01what was this business of suddenly turning on the leader?
0:26:01 > 0:26:03You know, didn't we have a bit more courage than that?
0:26:03 > 0:26:07But as I say, the Tory party in those days was pretty good at
0:26:07 > 0:26:09surviving, pretty good at it.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11We got an unprecedented fourth term.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13Did you shed any tears? You were talking about male tears.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16No, I didn't cry. But I was very cross.
0:26:17 > 0:26:21Now, of course, the Major years were very different in tone and there
0:26:21 > 0:26:25was a deliberate attempt to present it as a change of government.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28- Yes.- How did that feel as one of the people sitting behind him?
0:26:28 > 0:26:30It's very interesting that you use that phrase
0:26:30 > 0:26:32"change of government"
0:26:32 > 0:26:34because that's exactly what people thought had happened.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37We hadn't changed the government, we had changed the Prime Minister.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39But everybody thought this was something completely new and
0:26:39 > 0:26:43they were prepared to put us in for a fourth term.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45How was he with backbench MPs
0:26:45 > 0:26:48compared to the way Mrs Thatcher treated you?
0:26:48 > 0:26:51Let me describe to you, and this is the way I do always
0:26:51 > 0:26:55illustrate it to audiences, who always ask that question.
0:26:55 > 0:26:57And I can best describe it
0:26:57 > 0:27:00by the way that they used to come through the lobbies.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02Now everybody watching this programme knows that the way
0:27:02 > 0:27:04you vote in the House of Commons,
0:27:04 > 0:27:06you walk along a long corridor called the lobby.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08And at the other end, you give your name in to
0:27:08 > 0:27:10a clerk and you've voted.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12And it takes a quarter of an hour.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15You are given a quarter of an hour, rather, to get through the lobby.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18Well, nobody hurries through it because it's the one time of
0:27:18 > 0:27:20the day when all the party's together.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22So if you want to grab hold of a minister or,
0:27:22 > 0:27:24if you are in opposition, a spokesman,
0:27:24 > 0:27:26or if you want to grab a neighbouring MP because you've
0:27:26 > 0:27:29got an issue of mutual interest or you want somebody from
0:27:29 > 0:27:31a Parliamentary pressure group or,
0:27:31 > 0:27:33for that matter just want somebody to have a drink with,
0:27:33 > 0:27:35and you're standing there looking round,
0:27:35 > 0:27:37looking for people, not hurrying through.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40When Mrs Thatcher came through, her PPS used to go in front of her
0:27:40 > 0:27:42and it would be like the parting of the Red Sea.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46And then Moses would come through and vote.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49When John Major came through, he'd go up to one person and say,
0:27:49 > 0:27:51"That was a great speech you made the other night."
0:27:51 > 0:27:54He'd go to another person and say, "Is your wife out of hospital?
0:27:54 > 0:27:56"Is she better? Is all well?"
0:27:56 > 0:27:59He'd go up to somebody else and make some similar comment.
0:27:59 > 0:28:04And even at the height of the pressure on that beleaguered
0:28:04 > 0:28:07premiership, when you'd think any Prime Minister would be glad
0:28:07 > 0:28:09to get through the lobbies and have done with it,
0:28:09 > 0:28:11he never came through any other way,
0:28:11 > 0:28:14even when we were torn apart by the Maastricht Treaty,
0:28:14 > 0:28:17we were beset by sleaze scandals,
0:28:17 > 0:28:20our majority was down into the very low single figures,
0:28:20 > 0:28:23we didn't know from day to day whether we going to get
0:28:23 > 0:28:25our business through, we were trying to whip effectively without
0:28:25 > 0:28:28a majority, with all that pressure,
0:28:28 > 0:28:32the press were in full cry because we'd been there four terms,
0:28:32 > 0:28:35they just wanted us out, they want a change...
0:28:35 > 0:28:38All of that going on, he never came through any other way.
0:28:38 > 0:28:42He always came through taking an interest in his...
0:28:42 > 0:28:45in his colleagues, backbenchers and frontbenchers alike.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47So how would you rate him as a leader,
0:28:47 > 0:28:49given that you served under
0:28:49 > 0:28:52Mrs Thatcher, John Major, William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith,
0:28:52 > 0:28:53Michael Howard, David Cameron -
0:28:53 > 0:28:55that's a lot of Conservative party leaders.
0:28:55 > 0:28:58- Where would you place John Major? - Very high.
0:28:58 > 0:29:02And I believe that future historians will rate him very
0:29:02 > 0:29:04differently from contemporary ones.
0:29:04 > 0:29:08I think a lot of the problem was that people expected him to do
0:29:08 > 0:29:13what Thatcher did with a fraction of her majority.
0:29:13 > 0:29:15Thatcher had a rebellion a week and it didn't actually matter.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18I know I used to rebel from time to time.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20Not very often, but I did.
0:29:20 > 0:29:23It didn't matter because she could always ride it down
0:29:23 > 0:29:24with her majority.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27But with John, if there was a rebellion, it could actually
0:29:27 > 0:29:30result in a government defeat in the House of Commons.
0:29:30 > 0:29:33It was a very... So you had to wheel and deal and bargain in
0:29:33 > 0:29:35a way that she never had to.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38And one does need to recognise that.
0:29:38 > 0:29:42I was a minister throughout the entire Major administration
0:29:42 > 0:29:45from the moment he came in to the moment he left.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47I was never a minister under Thatcher.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50But I know which one I'm glad I was a minister under.
0:29:50 > 0:29:52Now, of course,
0:29:52 > 0:29:55- the most senior position you held was at the Home Office...- Yes.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57..where you were the Prisons Minister.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59Most senior office in government.
0:29:59 > 0:30:01- Yes.- I was shadow Home Secretary.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03Yes, you'd been a junior Pensions Minister and
0:30:03 > 0:30:06- a junior Employment Minister.- Then a Minister of State in Employment.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08No, I didn't.
0:30:08 > 0:30:11In those days it was a waste of time and indeed the department was
0:30:11 > 0:30:13eventually abolished.
0:30:13 > 0:30:14We didn't have employment issues.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16It was... unemployment was actually falling.
0:30:16 > 0:30:20You were mainly looking for things to do, whereas in pensions,
0:30:20 > 0:30:23there had been plenty to do.
0:30:23 > 0:30:26You didn't have to go looking and in prisons, there was plenty to do.
0:30:26 > 0:30:27And immigration,
0:30:27 > 0:30:29which I was also in charge of at the Home Office.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33And there was plenty to do with those and they were genuine
0:30:33 > 0:30:34challenging jobs.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37Employment was more or less - you made it up as you went along.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40Now, we can't talk about the Home Office without talking
0:30:40 > 0:30:41about how it all ended.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44- "Something of the night." - "Something of the night."
0:30:44 > 0:30:47How difficult was it for you to stand up and make that
0:30:47 > 0:30:51criticism of Michael Howard, who'd been the Home Secretary,
0:30:51 > 0:30:54and you were criticising him over his handling of the prison
0:30:54 > 0:30:56system and the way he treated Derek Lewis,
0:30:56 > 0:30:59who was the head of the Prisons Agency,
0:30:59 > 0:31:02a very long story which we probably don't have to go into details...
0:31:02 > 0:31:04We don't have time to go into it.
0:31:04 > 0:31:08I'm interested in you breaking ranks and making
0:31:08 > 0:31:13that comment, basically to stop him from becoming Conservative leader.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15Yes, I waited until after the election.
0:31:15 > 0:31:18I did not disturb the party before the election.
0:31:18 > 0:31:19I wouldn't have done.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22And I particularly wouldn't have done that to John Major.
0:31:22 > 0:31:27So I did not resign and I kept my mouth shut
0:31:27 > 0:31:30until we had actually lost the election,
0:31:30 > 0:31:33but I had always said to a few friends
0:31:33 > 0:31:37whom I trusted completely, you know,
0:31:37 > 0:31:42"When I am free to speak, I am going to tell all I know about this."
0:31:42 > 0:31:45And that is what I decided to do. Now, that may sound just like,
0:31:45 > 0:31:47well, that was a decision I took.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49It was horrendous.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51It was absolutely horrendous.
0:31:51 > 0:31:52You don't attack your own side -
0:31:52 > 0:31:55you think of Howe attacking Thatcher, you know.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57It's the exception that proves the rule.
0:31:57 > 0:31:59You don't attack your own side.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02And when you do it's got to be for a very serious reason
0:32:02 > 0:32:05and I was about to launch into a massive attack on a colleague.
0:32:07 > 0:32:09When the Speaker, it was Betty Boothroyd, when the Speaker
0:32:09 > 0:32:12called my name, I didn't want to stand up.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16One of those moments in Parliament, the only moment I can recall,
0:32:16 > 0:32:18when I really didn't want to stand up
0:32:18 > 0:32:20and do what I had set myself to do.
0:32:20 > 0:32:24Did you have any doubts, did you have a moment of doubt?
0:32:24 > 0:32:28No. I knew what I had to do. I knew I was going to do it.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31I did talk to a priest at the time because I wanted to be fairly
0:32:31 > 0:32:36certain that I wasn't doing it just for the sake of vindictiveness,
0:32:36 > 0:32:39just to get back at Michael for what I considered he'd done to
0:32:39 > 0:32:44somebody else. But apart from that, I knew what I had to do.
0:32:44 > 0:32:48I mean, I had, after all, had 18 months to think about it.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51How do you get on with him now?
0:32:51 > 0:32:58Well, the interesting thing is that a year after that incident,
0:32:58 > 0:33:03a year after that, we were working together in the same Shadow Cabinet.
0:33:03 > 0:33:07And he was then Shadow Home Secretary and I was
0:33:07 > 0:33:10Shadow Health Secretary, and we worked together.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13You don't have to be lovey-dovey to work together.
0:33:13 > 0:33:17But I can't believe he regards me with any warmth, and vice versa.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20So, you were Shadow Health Secretary under William Hague,
0:33:20 > 0:33:22and, as we're about to see,
0:33:22 > 0:33:25you became the darling of the Conservative Party Conference.
0:33:25 > 0:33:26The famous conference speech.
0:33:26 > 0:33:30So we're committed to the National Health Service.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33We're committed to the doctors and the nurses who work in it,
0:33:33 > 0:33:37we're committed to the patients who use it, which is all of us.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41We are committed to making sure that it is adequately funded,
0:33:41 > 0:33:44that it is properly run, that it is efficiently managed.
0:33:44 > 0:33:48But we're also committed to finding ways of increasing the total
0:33:48 > 0:33:51expenditure on health in this country because we prefer
0:33:51 > 0:33:53that to ever increasing rationing.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56By having the guts to address those questions,
0:33:56 > 0:33:58instead of pretending there's some slick,
0:33:58 > 0:34:01easy answer that can always be solved through some new
0:34:01 > 0:34:04political process, by having the guts to do that,
0:34:04 > 0:34:09we are guaranteeing to you the NHS for the next 50 years and beyond.
0:34:09 > 0:34:10Thank you.
0:34:17 > 0:34:20So, there we go. So, that was the 1988 Conservative Party Conference.
0:34:20 > 0:34:21It was, indeed.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24The Conservatives had really just started the business of
0:34:24 > 0:34:28opposition and there you were, walking around, without any notes.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30- That's right.- Is that where David Cameron got the idea from?
0:34:30 > 0:34:32He says so. He says so.
0:34:32 > 0:34:34In one of his more generous moments,
0:34:34 > 0:34:37as he came out after his speech that he did to try and become
0:34:37 > 0:34:41leader at conference, he said to me, "I took a leaf out of your book."
0:34:41 > 0:34:43And now it's become the big test for a politician, hasn't it,
0:34:43 > 0:34:47if they can't walk and talk without standing up behind the lectern?
0:34:47 > 0:34:50The interesting thing was that right up until that moment in 1998 -
0:34:50 > 0:34:53I was absolutely the first to do it - right up until that moment,
0:34:53 > 0:34:57even the big orators like Heseltine, had stood behind
0:34:57 > 0:35:01the lectern and read from notes or latterly from an autocue.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04But, you see, I'd grown up, although I'm a Catholic,
0:35:04 > 0:35:07I'd grown-up in an evangelical household.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10And I was used to evangelists like Billy Graham, who paced up
0:35:10 > 0:35:13and down the platform, and they hold your attention the whole time.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16You don't sort of nod off like this because you're following them.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19And I always said to myself, "If ever I do
0:35:19 > 0:35:24"a platform speech at conference, that is how I'm going to do it."
0:35:24 > 0:35:26Now, nobody wanted me to do it that way.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29Michael Ancram, who was party chairman, nearly laid an egg.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32He nearly laid an egg at the thought that I was going to do this.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35And I said, "I really want to do it this way."
0:35:35 > 0:35:37And I insisted, and I did,
0:35:37 > 0:35:41because we were only a year in to our opposition and I think we
0:35:41 > 0:35:44hadn't yet formed a sort of disciplinary structure that
0:35:44 > 0:35:46would have said, "No, Ann, you really can't do that."
0:35:46 > 0:35:49So I did, and I grossly ran over time.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52But, to me, the interesting thing about that was that I actually told
0:35:52 > 0:35:54the truth - you didn't get it in that extract -
0:35:54 > 0:35:57but I actually told the truth and I said, "Look, the NHS, you know,
0:35:57 > 0:36:00"was a wonderful institution for its first few decades.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02"It's not going to last.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04"It's not going to last because it was never designed by Bevan
0:36:04 > 0:36:06"and the founding fathers of the NHS,
0:36:06 > 0:36:10"it was never designed to cope with today's situation,
0:36:10 > 0:36:14"today's longevity, today's medical and surgical science."
0:36:14 > 0:36:18He seriously believed that it would cause demand to decline, and,
0:36:18 > 0:36:20as we all know, demand's gone towards infinity.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Now, when circumstances change,
0:36:23 > 0:36:26you have to change the means of meeting them.
0:36:26 > 0:36:31And yet nobody will do that, nobody else has said it since,
0:36:31 > 0:36:35because there is an emotional engagement between the public and
0:36:35 > 0:36:38the health service, and that sort of speech that I made would be
0:36:38 > 0:36:40regarded as electoral suicide.
0:36:40 > 0:36:44I could get away with it a year after we'd lost an election.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46If were a year out from one that everybody thought we were
0:36:46 > 0:36:50going to win, I would never have been allowed to make that speech.
0:36:50 > 0:36:52The net result is that the health service
0:36:52 > 0:36:54lurches from crisis to crisis.
0:36:54 > 0:36:58We have not dealt with the underlying cause, which is
0:36:58 > 0:37:02that it's wrong for today, therefore we haven't had the debate
0:37:02 > 0:37:04about what the options might be,
0:37:04 > 0:37:07therefore of course we've never selected any of those options, and
0:37:07 > 0:37:11we've never debated the next stage, which is how to get there from here.
0:37:11 > 0:37:14That's a pretty long process. I wish we'd started it in 1998.
0:37:16 > 0:37:19You were Pensions Minister, you were the Prisons Minister,
0:37:19 > 0:37:21you were the Shadow Health Secretary.
0:37:21 > 0:37:26Is it frustrating for you that we're still having these debates
0:37:26 > 0:37:29and we still haven't sorted out any of these big policy areas?
0:37:29 > 0:37:30Yes.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34I made a big thing when I was Shadow Home Secretary,
0:37:34 > 0:37:38based on my experience in the Home Office, my direct experience,
0:37:38 > 0:37:40I had two big planks.
0:37:40 > 0:37:44One was the importance of rehabilitation in prisons,
0:37:44 > 0:37:49the other was control of the abuse of the asylum system by
0:37:49 > 0:37:51practising automatic detention.
0:37:52 > 0:37:53That's what I said then.
0:37:54 > 0:37:58Automatic detention was carried on by Oliver Letwin in 2005,
0:37:58 > 0:37:59Cameron dropped it.
0:38:01 > 0:38:02Rehabilitation in prison?
0:38:02 > 0:38:06Every Prisons Minster since, whichever party, speaks about it.
0:38:06 > 0:38:10What's happening about it, what's being done about it?
0:38:10 > 0:38:13Of course it's frustrating.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15Every so often I can't resist saying in my Express column when
0:38:15 > 0:38:18something is done that I called for donkey's years ago, well,
0:38:18 > 0:38:21you know, I'm glad they've caught up with it at last. But the big issues?
0:38:21 > 0:38:23No, they haven't been caught up with.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26Given you feel so strongly about those issues,
0:38:26 > 0:38:29- why didn't you try to become Conservative leader?- I did.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31- In 2001... - But you dropped out.- I had to.
0:38:31 > 0:38:34In 2001, when William stood down,
0:38:34 > 0:38:37I was Shadow Home Secretary, I wanted to stand.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41And I am utterly convinced,
0:38:41 > 0:38:45as a result of all the letters and the telephone calls that we had,
0:38:45 > 0:38:47we weren't so much into e-mails in those days,
0:38:47 > 0:38:50but as a result of all that correspondence and people
0:38:50 > 0:38:51stopping me in the street,
0:38:51 > 0:38:55I was convinced that Conservatives in the country wanted me to stand.
0:38:55 > 0:38:59I didn't have enough support at Westminster and of course the way
0:38:59 > 0:39:03that the leadership works is that the MPs produce the list of two,
0:39:03 > 0:39:06those two go out to the country for decision.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09If it had been the other way round, and the country reduced
0:39:09 > 0:39:12the list, nothing would have stopped me standing.
0:39:12 > 0:39:14But I found very early on, I just didn't have the support at
0:39:14 > 0:39:18Westminster, I was never going to make the last two. So, why do it?
0:39:18 > 0:39:21If the system had been different, and the party members had elected
0:39:21 > 0:39:25you, do you think you could have won the MPs at Westminster round?
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Oh, yes, I think once the party's anointed you, on the whole,
0:39:28 > 0:39:30the attitude in Parliament then is, "Well,
0:39:30 > 0:39:33"let's try and make this work, let's get on with this."
0:39:33 > 0:39:36Sometimes, of course, that breaks down,
0:39:36 > 0:39:37as it did with Iain Duncan Smith,
0:39:37 > 0:39:43but there was nevertheless a real attempt to try, and, yes,
0:39:43 > 0:39:46I think I could because I'd have tackled the things that needed
0:39:46 > 0:39:48tackling, and that might have scared a lot of people.
0:39:48 > 0:39:49Yes, it might well have done.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52The health service scares people terribly.
0:39:52 > 0:39:56But somebody's got to do something about it. When, oh, when?
0:39:57 > 0:40:00You seem to be somebody who quite likes big challenges.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02Is there part of you that would like to be sitting around the
0:40:02 > 0:40:07- Cabinet table now with Theresa May, challenging...- Yes.- Yes?- Oh, yes.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10Yes, I mean, I think undeniably I'd love to be doing Brexit.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13I'd like to be doing the health service - you can't do them all,
0:40:13 > 0:40:16of course, like to be doing the health service,
0:40:16 > 0:40:19like to be tackling immigration, I'd like to be doing all those things.
0:40:19 > 0:40:21Love to be doing education,
0:40:21 > 0:40:25where my big bugbear at the moment is prescriptive marking,
0:40:25 > 0:40:27where you just tick points that have to be made,
0:40:27 > 0:40:30never look at the overall structure of the answer.
0:40:30 > 0:40:34That's not education, that's a travesty of education and explains
0:40:34 > 0:40:36why we've got grade inflation, of course.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38So, would you focus on that rather than grammar schools?
0:40:38 > 0:40:41Um, I'd get both going.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44I mean, I'm happy with grammar schools but I do desperately
0:40:44 > 0:40:46want to see the end of what I describe as prescriptive marking.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49I actually had a letter from a Labour,
0:40:49 > 0:40:51but it could just as easily have been a Tory,
0:40:51 > 0:40:53Education Minister, saying to me,
0:40:53 > 0:40:55"No, you don't need a degree in Latin
0:40:55 > 0:40:56"to mark a Latin A Level paper."
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Well, that's rot because there are umpteen different ways of
0:40:59 > 0:41:00expressing something.
0:41:00 > 0:41:04And I was only talking to a teacher the other day who said that
0:41:04 > 0:41:06her school didn't make a practice of appealing right,
0:41:06 > 0:41:08left and centre,
0:41:08 > 0:41:11but every time they had appealed a low mark it had always come
0:41:11 > 0:41:15about because the student had thought outside the box.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18And actually it was a very good paper indeed,
0:41:18 > 0:41:22but whoever was marking it didn't have the ability to appreciate that.
0:41:22 > 0:41:24I have visions of a national assessment centre where
0:41:24 > 0:41:26everybody's sitting there ticking boxes,
0:41:26 > 0:41:29instead of assessing what's in front of them.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32And you should always be able to assess what's in front of you.
0:41:32 > 0:41:35And, indeed, teachers, markers used to have discretion.
0:41:35 > 0:41:37You might get the actual answer wrong,
0:41:37 > 0:41:39but if your method was good and it was obviously
0:41:39 > 0:41:43a little slip somewhere at the end, you wouldn't do a cross,
0:41:43 > 0:41:46you'd do a half or whatever it might be.
0:41:46 > 0:41:50You'd read an essay and maybe the pupil had come out with
0:41:50 > 0:41:53something that wasn't orthodox but that was well argued.
0:41:53 > 0:41:55I can remember once my English teacher saying to me,
0:41:55 > 0:41:57when I said that Fanny and Edmund,
0:41:57 > 0:42:00from Mansfield Park, were as dull as ditchwater,
0:42:00 > 0:42:03and they really were the most boring characters that Jane Austen
0:42:03 > 0:42:06had ever invented, saying to me that she utterly disagreed with me,
0:42:06 > 0:42:09she thought that any examiner would disagree with me, but that
0:42:09 > 0:42:13the argument was very impressive and she'd given it a high mark.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15Now, you know...
0:42:15 > 0:42:16Not so these days.
0:42:16 > 0:42:20So, after a lifetime of arguing, and writing books, presenting
0:42:20 > 0:42:26television programmes, when you look back now, do you have any regrets?
0:42:27 > 0:42:29No, I mean, if I have regrets it's about things like...
0:42:29 > 0:42:34Well, I voted to stay in the European Community in 1975.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36Certainly changed my mind on that one.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38When people say to me I never change my mind, oh, yes,
0:42:38 > 0:42:42I do, on one of the biggest issues of the century I changed my mind.
0:42:42 > 0:42:43I regret things like that.
0:42:43 > 0:42:47I might regret presentation rather than substance.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51The drugs speech at party conference in 2000 would be one of those.
0:42:51 > 0:42:52I don't remotely regret the policy,
0:42:52 > 0:42:55I do regret the way it was presented.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57So I have things like that.
0:42:57 > 0:43:02Maybe tactical decisions which I took in any particular campaign,
0:43:02 > 0:43:07but no major regrets. I've spent my life in a way that I do not regret.
0:43:07 > 0:43:11I have embraced causes which I certainly would embrace
0:43:11 > 0:43:13again tomorrow and do still embrace.
0:43:14 > 0:43:20I had priorities which I believed to be right and I've tried -
0:43:20 > 0:43:21nobody's ever 100% successful -
0:43:21 > 0:43:26but I've tried to be utterly true to what I believe.
0:43:26 > 0:43:30And, yeah, I shall be a fairly happy old lady.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32And if we had the young Ann Widdecombe
0:43:32 > 0:43:36- from the Oxford Union with us now...- I did enjoy watching that.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39..what advice would you give her?
0:43:39 > 0:43:42I'd say, "Don't be in such a hurry, dear."
0:43:42 > 0:43:43There is no hurry.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46You really don't have to think you must do everything by
0:43:46 > 0:43:49the time you're 30. Go away, forget politics for a while.
0:43:49 > 0:43:53Go away, have a career, earn some money,
0:43:53 > 0:43:56have a family if that's what you want to do, but I didn't,
0:43:56 > 0:44:00but do other things and then come back to it.
0:44:01 > 0:44:04And that is the advice which I do always give, male or female,
0:44:04 > 0:44:09young or old, I always say, "Make sure you've done something else."
0:44:09 > 0:44:10And I think that's sound advice.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13But if anybody had given it to me at the time I would have ignored
0:44:13 > 0:44:18that person. I was absolutely uni-focused on Westminster.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22I would have ignored that person, I would have ignored that advice.
0:44:22 > 0:44:26But that is the advice which I would give my 20-year-old self.
0:44:26 > 0:44:28Ann Widdecombe, thank you very much.