0:00:15 > 0:00:18Hello and welcome to Conversations.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21Today, my guest is the son of a nurse and a coalminer
0:00:21 > 0:00:23from the Valleys of South Wales,
0:00:23 > 0:00:28who grew up to lead the Labour Party through some of its toughest times.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30He was Leader of the Opposition
0:00:30 > 0:00:34against the most formidable postwar Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37A one-time man of the left who became a moderniser,
0:00:37 > 0:00:38who transformed his party
0:00:38 > 0:00:41and paved the way for the electoral success of Tony Blair
0:00:41 > 0:00:43and the New Labour years.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46He went on to serve as one of the UK's European Commissioners.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48He is Neil, Lord Kinnock.
0:00:48 > 0:00:49- Lord Kinnock, welcome.- Thank you.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Let's start at the beginning
0:00:51 > 0:00:53and the beginning of your political life.
0:00:53 > 0:00:57Some people get their politics from a university seminar,
0:00:57 > 0:00:59some from experience.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03Are you one of those who inherited his politics in the Valleys?
0:01:03 > 0:01:04You could put it like that.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08It certainly came from the community in which I grew up
0:01:08 > 0:01:12and the family that I was hugely fortunate to have.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16It wasn't that they were stridently political.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18They were socialists...
0:01:18 > 0:01:20matter-of-factly.
0:01:20 > 0:01:21And trade unionists.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25And I learned very, very early on
0:01:25 > 0:01:29that the only source of strength that we really had
0:01:29 > 0:01:31was our own diligence
0:01:31 > 0:01:37and the strength of numbers of collective action.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41I was just under 15 when, illegally,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44in terms of the Labour Party rules then,
0:01:44 > 0:01:49I was permitted to join the Labour Party by our local ward secretary,
0:01:49 > 0:01:52who was also our county councillor, a marvellous fellow.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56And that's where, really, my politics,
0:01:56 > 0:01:58my democratic socialist politics, came from.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Further inspired, I must say,
0:02:00 > 0:02:05by the fact that our Member of Parliament was Aneurin Bevan.
0:02:05 > 0:02:12And not only was he worshipped by my family and everybody I knew,
0:02:12 > 0:02:15but he was the model
0:02:15 > 0:02:20of how you could mix inspiration and construction.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23So what was the culture like in South Wales?
0:02:23 > 0:02:26Because your father, he came from a big family
0:02:26 > 0:02:29and a lot of them had had very tough lives, hadn't they?
0:02:29 > 0:02:33I mean, really difficult times with industrial injuries
0:02:33 > 0:02:37and really hard work for a really long time
0:02:37 > 0:02:39in a way that, probably, people starting work now
0:02:39 > 0:02:41couldn't possibly imagine.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44Did that influence your culture and your political culture?
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Well, people starting work now, hopefully, will never experience...
0:02:48 > 0:02:51My father was one of seven surviving children.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56My grandmother had had 13 pregnancies
0:02:56 > 0:03:01and, of those, nine produced children,
0:03:01 > 0:03:03seven of whom survived.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07That was typical. That wasn't in any sense extraordinary.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10And it was a similar, slightly smaller numbers,
0:03:10 > 0:03:14pattern with my mother's family, as well.
0:03:14 > 0:03:15And...
0:03:16 > 0:03:20..amongst those seven children, six were boys
0:03:20 > 0:03:26and all but one of them became miners, colliers,
0:03:26 > 0:03:30like my grandfather and just about all the men in my family,
0:03:30 > 0:03:32except for those who were bakers.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34And...
0:03:34 > 0:03:39of those, two remained in the pits after the 1930s.
0:03:39 > 0:03:45The rest were forced to leave, become migrants.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51And they made their way to, ultimately, very successful jobs,
0:03:51 > 0:03:54two in the steel industry, one in electronics.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58They did all kinds of things.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03They were in boxing bouts, they were wrestlers,
0:04:03 > 0:04:05they were steelworkers
0:04:05 > 0:04:08and that's the kind of background.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10My father stayed in the pit.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12He loved being a coalminer
0:04:12 > 0:04:15and he had a redoubtable reputation
0:04:15 > 0:04:18as a Stakhanovite - a great producer.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21He was the kind of generous guy who,
0:04:21 > 0:04:24as people told me after he died,
0:04:24 > 0:04:26during the war,
0:04:26 > 0:04:30when people were kept on in the pits, experienced miners,
0:04:30 > 0:04:34way past the time they should have been going underground
0:04:34 > 0:04:36and had dreadful asthma,
0:04:36 > 0:04:40product of pneumoconiosis, dermatitis and so on.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43If they were ill, he'd cut their tonnage
0:04:43 > 0:04:45and then cut his own -
0:04:45 > 0:04:47and that's the kind of guy he was.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50My mother was a similarly generous spirit.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53- Your mother was the district nurse, wasn't she?- Yes, she was.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57She was a sort of sheriff of North Tredegar.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59She knew everybody, everybody knew her.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04And she was always immensely smart in her uniform.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07She was welcomed everywhere she went,
0:05:07 > 0:05:10but she had a sense of order
0:05:10 > 0:05:13that was quite remarkable, and a real presence.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15She was quite a woman. Highly intelligent.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19But for the 1926 General Strike, when she was 16...
0:05:20 > 0:05:24..I think she probably would have gone on to study medicine,
0:05:24 > 0:05:27despite the awful poverty of her family.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31They had kept her in school
0:05:31 > 0:05:34after she'd got a scholarship to the grammar school,
0:05:34 > 0:05:38but the 1926 General Strike came,
0:05:38 > 0:05:42there was a new baby in the house and it was simply unsustainable,
0:05:42 > 0:05:45so she left and then took nursing training instead.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48But she was a redoubtable, wonderful woman.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53- Your parents obviously had a great influence on you.- Yeah.
0:05:54 > 0:05:58They obviously worked very hard for you, to give you an opportunity.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01Was that an opportunity to leave the Valleys, do you think?
0:06:01 > 0:06:04Or did they want you to stay and be a big figure there?
0:06:04 > 0:06:07It never translated itself in those terms, funnily enough.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11I never remember a single conversation of that kind.
0:06:12 > 0:06:16Their whole emphasis was on my self-fulfilment,
0:06:16 > 0:06:20what the Americans would call my self-actualisation.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24Though they would have fallen over if they'd heard that one!
0:06:25 > 0:06:29And they wanted me to do the best that I could.
0:06:29 > 0:06:33And at 11, I was immensely promising.
0:06:33 > 0:06:38I had no difficulty flying into a very, very creamed
0:06:38 > 0:06:40boys-only grammar school.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43The only problem was, I had to travel about three hours a day
0:06:43 > 0:06:45to get there and back.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49But it was a highly thought of grammar school.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52Lloyd George called it the Eton of Wales,
0:06:52 > 0:06:54as if that was the greatest flattery!
0:06:54 > 0:06:56And I had a miserable time in school.
0:06:57 > 0:07:00Maybe because I was ginger, I was bullied.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03And that's where I learned to fight
0:07:03 > 0:07:06and where I took some of my politics from, actually,
0:07:06 > 0:07:10because I've always loathed and sought to fight back
0:07:10 > 0:07:12against bullies of every description
0:07:12 > 0:07:16and I guess, in the school, that wasn't a bad training ground.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19I eventually got to like it in the sixth form,
0:07:19 > 0:07:23when I was treated as an adult by good teachers
0:07:23 > 0:07:25and went to university.
0:07:25 > 0:07:26Let's stop for a second
0:07:26 > 0:07:30because, for all of us who've had a hard time
0:07:30 > 0:07:31after not doing well at our O-levels,
0:07:31 > 0:07:33you're a bit of an inspirational story,
0:07:33 > 0:07:36because you didn't do very well in your O-levels, either.
0:07:36 > 0:07:37Appallingly badly.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41I didn't realise until I was actually sitting the O-levels
0:07:41 > 0:07:44that revision was required.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47I mean, I eventually collected quite a lot of them,
0:07:47 > 0:07:51but only after I'd had this real punch between the eyes
0:07:51 > 0:07:54of getting very good marks in three subjects
0:07:54 > 0:07:56which, of course, was utterly useless,
0:07:56 > 0:08:00so I had to stay on for an extra year and do more O-levels
0:08:00 > 0:08:03before I was permitted to go into the sixth form.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05Would your parents have let you leave school, then, at that point?
0:08:05 > 0:08:07No, no, no, no.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09I did everything I could to get out.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12I applied to the NCB, the National Coal Board,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16for a management traineeship and was accepted.
0:08:16 > 0:08:21When they discovered that I was going to become
0:08:21 > 0:08:22someone in the coal-mining industry,
0:08:22 > 0:08:24they went berserk.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27And I said to my father, "But you loved being a coalminer."
0:08:27 > 0:08:31By this time, because of industrial dermatitis,
0:08:31 > 0:08:32which was a dreadful disability,
0:08:32 > 0:08:36he had his hands wrapped for the rest of his life.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38But he loved being a coalminer.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42They transferred him because of a dust allergy!
0:08:42 > 0:08:44HE CHUCKLES
0:08:44 > 0:08:47They transferred him out to the blast furnaces
0:08:47 > 0:08:48in the Ebbw Vale steelworks,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51which is even more dusty than being underground.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54Anyway, I said, "But you loved it."
0:08:54 > 0:08:59And he said, "I loved it, but if you went down there, I'd hate it."
0:08:59 > 0:09:02And they really were very, very resistant
0:09:02 > 0:09:05and I knew I was making them miserable, so I didn't do it.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10I then applied to go to the Army and they said,
0:09:10 > 0:09:12"No, no, no. You can be a soldier, by all means be a soldier,
0:09:12 > 0:09:14"we think it's a fine thing to be a soldier,
0:09:14 > 0:09:18"but do your A-levels first and then make a decision."
0:09:19 > 0:09:21And I stuck that for a couple of months
0:09:21 > 0:09:24and then I applied to join the police force.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26And when they found out about that, they said,
0:09:26 > 0:09:28"We think being a policeman is a terrific thing,
0:09:28 > 0:09:29"it's absolutely great,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31"but wait until you've done your A-levels."
0:09:31 > 0:09:34Which I did and then I did...reasonably at A-levels,
0:09:34 > 0:09:36got into university.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38When I got elected to the Students' Representative Council
0:09:38 > 0:09:39in my second year,
0:09:39 > 0:09:44I went home at Easter time and my mother and father congratulated me.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49I'd got quite a good result, it was very good, and my father said,
0:09:49 > 0:09:51"You're taking this politics seriously?"
0:09:51 > 0:09:53I said, "Yes, it's the only way to get things done.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56He said, "Oh, I agree with that. Oh, I agree with that.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59"Hm... You won't be growing a beard, will you?"
0:09:59 > 0:10:01And I said, "Why the hell not?"
0:10:01 > 0:10:02And he said,
0:10:02 > 0:10:07"Because politicians should always have to shave in the morning
0:10:07 > 0:10:09"to look at themselves in the mirror."
0:10:09 > 0:10:12And like a clever Dick, I said, "Oh, what about women?"
0:10:12 > 0:10:15And he looked at me and he said,
0:10:15 > 0:10:17"Lipstick!"
0:10:19 > 0:10:21So, no chance, even if I had been a revolutionary,
0:10:21 > 0:10:23of being a bearded one!
0:10:23 > 0:10:26Now, you left with a degree but, of course,
0:10:26 > 0:10:29you also met your wife, Glenys, now Lady Kinnock,
0:10:29 > 0:10:31a formidable politician in her own right.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35And even in those days, you were called "the power and the glory".
0:10:35 > 0:10:36- Yes.- Which was which?
0:10:36 > 0:10:39I was the power, she was the glory
0:10:39 > 0:10:41and all you had to do was to look at a photograph of us
0:10:41 > 0:10:43and you'd know which was which.
0:10:43 > 0:10:47The title was given to us by a dear, dear, dear friend
0:10:47 > 0:10:50called John Collins, who is a very active councillor
0:10:50 > 0:10:52up in his native Preston, still.
0:10:52 > 0:10:57And John wrote a column about us and called us "the power and the glory"
0:10:57 > 0:10:58and it stuck.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01And, of course, mischievous or malevolent people
0:11:01 > 0:11:03wanted to turn it the other one -
0:11:03 > 0:11:05she was the power, I was the glory.
0:11:05 > 0:11:09But that's certainly not how John wrote it in the first place.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12And, I mean, she was a hugely effective organiser.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18I really had to win her out of her shyness, an innate shyness.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23And of course, when she did find her feet on the platform,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26she was immensely convincing because...
0:11:26 > 0:11:31I remember we had a conversation when she was running to become,
0:11:31 > 0:11:35after years of me trying to persuade her and her rebuffs,
0:11:35 > 0:11:37to become an elected politician,
0:11:37 > 0:11:40because, you know, she really has got the kit.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42There's no question about that.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45She's not only articulate and intelligent
0:11:45 > 0:11:48and very strongly committed,
0:11:48 > 0:11:50but she's also charming.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53Something I missed out on, but there you are!
0:11:53 > 0:11:55And I tried and other people tried,
0:11:55 > 0:11:59but she always dismissed it while the kids were growing up.
0:11:59 > 0:12:05When Rachel, our daughter, went off to university,
0:12:05 > 0:12:10the first weekend after that that we were going to see her in Bristol...
0:12:11 > 0:12:16..Glenys announced that she was going to try and secure nomination
0:12:16 > 0:12:20to become the Member of the European Parliament for South East Wales.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24And I was so shocked, I really nearly drove off the road.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26I had to stop, it was so amazing.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28I was delighted, but I was amazed.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32And she said to me, as we were driving along afterwards, she said,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35"I'm not sure I can do it, but I'm going to give it a try."
0:12:35 > 0:12:37And I said, "Of course you can do it."
0:12:37 > 0:12:40She said, "Well, you know, what about...what about speaking?"
0:12:40 > 0:12:43And I said, "Well, you've done lots of public speaking."
0:12:43 > 0:12:44She said, "Yes, but it's not the same.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47"It's nearly all been with friendly audiences."
0:12:47 > 0:12:50I said, "Look, you've spent the last several years
0:12:50 > 0:12:53"teaching seven-year-olds to read.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56"All you've got to do is to treat the world
0:12:56 > 0:12:59"as if it was seven years of age
0:12:59 > 0:13:02"and take the same attitude and you'll never have any problems."
0:13:02 > 0:13:05And, I mean, she's a born teacher
0:13:05 > 0:13:07and it has stood her in good stead, I must say.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10How important has she been to your life?
0:13:10 > 0:13:13Oh, vital, in all respects.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18You know, I could give instances of...
0:13:19 > 0:13:22..inspiration and consolation.
0:13:22 > 0:13:27She was largely responsible for bringing up the kids,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29especially in their teens.
0:13:29 > 0:13:34I became elected leader of the Labour Party when my son was 13
0:13:34 > 0:13:37and my daughter was 11.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39And, obviously, I had preoccupations.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42They always knew, as they've told me since,
0:13:42 > 0:13:44that I was doing my damnedest to get to a school concert
0:13:44 > 0:13:48or a football game or a netball game, to be there,
0:13:48 > 0:13:52but I, obviously and unavoidably, missed quite a lot
0:13:52 > 0:13:56and it was Glenys that provided
0:13:56 > 0:14:01the absolute rock-solid steadiness, stability, encouragement
0:14:01 > 0:14:04and they've turned out to be very, very fine people.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06Erm...
0:14:06 > 0:14:07So I owe her...
0:14:07 > 0:14:08Sorry.
0:14:09 > 0:14:15I don't know how I would have made it through the death of my parents
0:14:15 > 0:14:19within eight days of each other in 1971
0:14:19 > 0:14:24if Glenys hadn't been my mainstay and partner.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Producing Rachel a week after my mother died,
0:14:27 > 0:14:30which was a wonderful preoccupation.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32So I guess that eased it.
0:14:32 > 0:14:37Was she supportive of your desire to become an MP?
0:14:37 > 0:14:39Because you were very young, weren't you?
0:14:39 > 0:14:41We should just remind people, you were only 28 when you were elected.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45The circumstances were odd, in many ways.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47Fortuitous in others.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50We got married in 1967
0:14:50 > 0:14:55and because her job was in Abersychan grammar school,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Roy Jenkins' alma mater...
0:14:58 > 0:15:01Didn't he say that was the Eton of Wales, perhaps?
0:15:01 > 0:15:03He might have, but it...but it wasn't!
0:15:05 > 0:15:07And that was her first teaching job.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11And I was the Workers' Education Association tutor organiser
0:15:11 > 0:15:13for South East Wales
0:15:13 > 0:15:16and most of my work was over towards the Cynan Valley,
0:15:16 > 0:15:20the Rhondda and westward of that, down to Swansea.
0:15:20 > 0:15:25And we needed to find somewhere that was halfway between them.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27And the place was Blackwood.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29And when I turned up there,
0:15:29 > 0:15:32obviously, we transferred our membership of the Labour Party
0:15:32 > 0:15:37from, as it happened, from Ebbw Vale to what was then Bedwellty.
0:15:37 > 0:15:42And I'd thought the MP, about whom I knew little,
0:15:42 > 0:15:45was a guy in his late 50s.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49Anyway, he turned out - a very decent man called Harold Finch -
0:15:49 > 0:15:51to be in his late 60s.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56And I was sitting there in 1969 as the minute secretary
0:15:56 > 0:15:58of the Constituency Labour Party Executive...
0:15:58 > 0:16:00HE CHUCKLES
0:16:00 > 0:16:03..taking notes with my pencil of the proceedings
0:16:03 > 0:16:08and we came to any other business in January 1969
0:16:08 > 0:16:11and Jack Beddy, the President, a dear old comrade of mine, said,
0:16:11 > 0:16:13"Is there any other business?"
0:16:13 > 0:16:15And the MP said,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18"Yes, Jack, I've got something in any other business.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21"I've decided I'm not going to run at the next General Election."
0:16:21 > 0:16:25And if you look at the minute book, you can see where my pencil broke!
0:16:27 > 0:16:29So immediately after the meeting,
0:16:29 > 0:16:32some friends who were on the executive and I,
0:16:32 > 0:16:36young men and women, went down to our usual haunt,
0:16:36 > 0:16:38the working men's club
0:16:38 > 0:16:41and Glenys joined us.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44And I said, "Right, who are we going to run?"
0:16:44 > 0:16:48And they looked at me and they said, "You, you silly sod!"
0:16:48 > 0:16:49And I said, "Oh, too young."
0:16:49 > 0:16:52I was 27, then.
0:16:52 > 0:16:53"Too young," I said.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55"No, you're not. You've got what it takes.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57"We are going to run you."
0:16:57 > 0:17:03And six months later, in the selection meeting,
0:17:03 > 0:17:06I drew with a veteran of the Spanish Civil War,
0:17:06 > 0:17:10a guy I would have voted for, if I hadn't been running - Lance Rogers.
0:17:10 > 0:17:1375 votes each.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16And we were called in again to make another speech
0:17:16 > 0:17:20and I won by 76-74 and secured the nomination.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24So you arrive as a very young man in the House of Commons
0:17:24 > 0:17:27and, of course, this is the pre-television age,
0:17:27 > 0:17:30so had you actually ever seen the House of Commons
0:17:30 > 0:17:32or been there before?
0:17:32 > 0:17:36I'd been there once for a demonstration and not got in,
0:17:36 > 0:17:41and once to see Michael Foot shortly after I was selected.
0:17:41 > 0:17:46He was in the middle of the House of Lords No 2 Bill,
0:17:46 > 0:17:50campaigning successfully to defeat the government
0:17:50 > 0:17:53in its proposals to reform the House of Lords
0:17:53 > 0:17:56in a way that he strongly detested.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58We had tea and a drink
0:17:58 > 0:18:01and that was the only time I'd been in there previously.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03How easy did you find it to stand up
0:18:03 > 0:18:07and make a speech in the Commons chamber?
0:18:07 > 0:18:09Difficult, always.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12But I don't enjoy speaking in any case.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14I never have.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17I quite like teaching and I used to teach adults.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20I learned more from them than they learned from me.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23I'm certain any adult teacher will say the same thing.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Especially the kind of men and women I had in my classes,
0:18:27 > 0:18:29who were extraordinary.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32And...
0:18:32 > 0:18:34- So you don't like speaking?- No.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37I think many people would regard you as...
0:18:37 > 0:18:40as one of the great orators of the '80s and '90s.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44Well, yeah, people are very kind about that
0:18:44 > 0:18:50and I know I've made some good and a few outstanding speeches.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52I know that.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54And I'm very fortunate
0:18:54 > 0:18:57that I've been able to articulate ideas, arguments.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02But I think anybody will tell you that
0:19:02 > 0:19:09my most fluent and effective speaking is done in a corner.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13Well, let's just pause for a second,
0:19:13 > 0:19:18because we've got a clip of one of your most famous speeches.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21So let's have a look at that now.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26If Margaret Thatcher wins on Thursday...
0:19:27 > 0:19:29..I warn you not to be ordinary.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32I warn you not to be young.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36I warn you not to fall ill.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39And I warn you not to grow old.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42APPLAUSE
0:19:44 > 0:19:45Hm...
0:19:46 > 0:19:49Now, if people hadn't heard of Neil Kinnock
0:19:49 > 0:19:50before you made that speech,
0:19:50 > 0:19:53they'd certainly heard about you afterwards.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55That brought you to the attention.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57It was just a few hours before the election.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02Is that something that you'd worked on for a long time, that speech?
0:20:02 > 0:20:03No.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05Glenys comes into the picture again.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11It was the Tuesday before the election
0:20:11 > 0:20:14and I was due to speak in Bridgend, in South Wales.
0:20:15 > 0:20:16But I'd been...
0:20:17 > 0:20:21..campaigning in London and the Home Counties
0:20:21 > 0:20:24and so the only way for me to get to South Wales
0:20:24 > 0:20:26was for Glenys to drive me down
0:20:26 > 0:20:28while I worked in the back of the car.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32And very unusually, I think it was the only speech,
0:20:32 > 0:20:34maybe one other,
0:20:34 > 0:20:37that I wrote during that election campaign
0:20:37 > 0:20:40and I sat in the back of the car with a clipboard
0:20:40 > 0:20:42and drafted the speech.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45And I had been working on it for about 20 minutes
0:20:45 > 0:20:48and I said to Glenys, "What do you think of this?"
0:20:48 > 0:20:52And I sort of read it and she said, "Hm, it sounds like blank verse."
0:20:52 > 0:20:56So I then wrote the rest of it in blank verse
0:20:56 > 0:20:59and it's become known as the I Warn You speech.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02The tragedy is, of course, that so much of it came true.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05And do you think you would have become Labour leader,
0:21:05 > 0:21:08just a short time later, if you hadn't made that speech?
0:21:08 > 0:21:12Yes, I think so, because I'd been very active
0:21:12 > 0:21:16in the trade union and Labour movement in a variety of ways
0:21:16 > 0:21:20for the 13 years that I'd been a Member of Parliament.
0:21:20 > 0:21:24And I had a degree of respect, even amongst my opponents,
0:21:24 > 0:21:26because I always tried to play straight with people.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Always have.
0:21:29 > 0:21:30And I could tell a joke,
0:21:30 > 0:21:36and I could turn quite grim situations with a sense of humour,
0:21:36 > 0:21:38which is also appreciated.
0:21:39 > 0:21:45And then, really, given the state of the Labour Party
0:21:45 > 0:21:49in the wake of the 1983 General Election,
0:21:49 > 0:21:52the movement, generally, was looking for a leader
0:21:52 > 0:21:55who was unquestionably from the left
0:21:55 > 0:21:58but sane and sensible.
0:21:58 > 0:22:06And I'd taken on Tony Benn and his element in the Labour Party
0:22:06 > 0:22:09and, people say, denied him the deputy leadership of the party
0:22:09 > 0:22:14by organising the abstention of Tribune,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17as I say, Bevanite Members of Parliament,
0:22:17 > 0:22:23in his bid to be elected deputy leader in 1981.
0:22:23 > 0:22:28And Denis Healey won by 0.6 of 1%.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30I was sitting there on the platform, waiting for the result,
0:22:30 > 0:22:34and I thought, "You clown! Why didn't you vote for Denis?
0:22:34 > 0:22:36"You disagree with him,
0:22:36 > 0:22:39"but the party's in safe hands with Denis Healey.
0:22:39 > 0:22:44"It'll be wrecked if Tony gets elected."
0:22:44 > 0:22:47Much as, in some ways, I admired Tony,
0:22:47 > 0:22:52I thought that his brand of ultra-leftism
0:22:52 > 0:22:55was toxic for the standing of the Labour Party.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59And, anyway, as it happened,
0:22:59 > 0:23:02I didn't have cause for regret because Denis did win.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05But taking him on...
0:23:06 > 0:23:11..got me unintentional notoriety in some quarters
0:23:11 > 0:23:14and applause in others.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17Do you enjoy campaigning? Do you enjoy a political campaign?
0:23:17 > 0:23:18Yes.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22First of all, in terms of the opportunity
0:23:22 > 0:23:27of encouraging and inspiring our side, which is vital.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30It's part of leadership, I guess.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34But also, in the opportunity to confront the enemy
0:23:34 > 0:23:38and to do it in the circumstances of election,
0:23:38 > 0:23:44when you don't have to take refuge in the niceties or the formalities.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47Of course, you must always try to be courteous,
0:23:47 > 0:23:50but if attacked, you hit back.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53And I used to get attacked a fair amount, so I always did hit back.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56And it's rumbustious.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01It isn't the definition of democracy,
0:24:01 > 0:24:05but without it democracy is much weaker, much poorer,
0:24:05 > 0:24:10much less vibrant, less meaningful to a lot of people.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12People look for contest,
0:24:12 > 0:24:16sincere, authentic contest, not a put-up show.
0:24:16 > 0:24:20A year after you became leader, we had the miners' strike in 1984,
0:24:20 > 0:24:23a very bitter industrial dispute
0:24:23 > 0:24:26and you found yourself at the heart of it,
0:24:26 > 0:24:29because one of the big arguments about that
0:24:29 > 0:24:33was the whole issue of whether or not the union,
0:24:33 > 0:24:36the National Union of Mineworkers, should have held a ballot or not.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39That put you at odds with the leader of the union,
0:24:39 > 0:24:41Arthur Scargill, didn't it?
0:24:41 > 0:24:44Without reservation, I supported the case for coal.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47Not only on the grounds of maintaining the industry
0:24:47 > 0:24:50and the communities dependent upon it,
0:24:50 > 0:24:52but on grounds of national interest,
0:24:52 > 0:24:57because we were still then heavily dependent on coal
0:24:57 > 0:24:59and, by definition,
0:24:59 > 0:25:03domestically-generated coal and energy
0:25:03 > 0:25:08is much more secure than dependence on imports.
0:25:08 > 0:25:13So I wholeheartedly had always and did support the case for coal.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18And the first conversation I had about it
0:25:18 > 0:25:22with Scargill in October 1983,
0:25:22 > 0:25:28just weeks after I was elected as leader of the Labour Party,
0:25:28 > 0:25:29was satisfactory,
0:25:29 > 0:25:33because he appeared to agree with the view that I expressed
0:25:33 > 0:25:35that we had to uphold the case for coal.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38We had to contest the closure programme
0:25:38 > 0:25:43and we had to do it by ensuring that men came off the coalfield
0:25:43 > 0:25:46and went to communities around the country,
0:25:46 > 0:25:49market towns, London suburbs,
0:25:49 > 0:25:53and explain why it was a matter of the national interest
0:25:53 > 0:25:56to sustain the coal-mining industry.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59Not every last pit but, nevertheless, substantially.
0:25:59 > 0:26:03And to invest in it and exploit Britain's massive,
0:26:03 > 0:26:07still massive, coal reserves.
0:26:07 > 0:26:10But then came the work-to-rule in the coal-mining industry
0:26:10 > 0:26:16which, again, I endorsed as a way of demonstrating
0:26:16 > 0:26:19the need for an intelligent investment programme.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21And, of course, the men in my constituency -
0:26:21 > 0:26:24I'd over 4,000 miners in my constituency -
0:26:24 > 0:26:27were part of that.
0:26:27 > 0:26:32And they took wage cuts, sacrifices in doing that.
0:26:33 > 0:26:39So that when, by a series of ridiculous errors,
0:26:39 > 0:26:45the board gave the appearance of closing a colliery,
0:26:45 > 0:26:48an English colliery, Cottonwood,
0:26:48 > 0:26:51which proved to be erroneous,
0:26:51 > 0:26:55and the rolling strike started
0:26:55 > 0:26:57with men just stopping going into the pit.
0:26:57 > 0:27:01And the South Wales miners going to different coalfields,
0:27:01 > 0:27:04to the canteens, and making the argument with the men
0:27:04 > 0:27:09that they had to fight to sustain the industry and their communities,
0:27:09 > 0:27:11it accumulated.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15And by the Easter of 1984...
0:27:16 > 0:27:18lots of people, including myself
0:27:18 > 0:27:21and, indeed, including Mick McGahey, the vice-president of the NUM,
0:27:21 > 0:27:24who was a dear, dear comrade of mine, had been for decades...
0:27:27 > 0:27:28..thought that the reason
0:27:28 > 0:27:31for convening a special conference of the miners
0:27:31 > 0:27:35was to change the rule on strike procedure,
0:27:35 > 0:27:37which would have been sensible,
0:27:37 > 0:27:41and then have a ballot for the strike,
0:27:41 > 0:27:44following the precedent, on every occasion,
0:27:44 > 0:27:47on which there had been a dispute in the coal-mining industry
0:27:47 > 0:27:49in the 20th century.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52And that wasn't Scargill's thought.
0:27:52 > 0:27:54He actually thought that he could,
0:27:54 > 0:27:57by a kid of Syndicalist insurrection,
0:27:57 > 0:27:59win the strike.
0:27:59 > 0:28:03And I knew immediately that was supreme folly,
0:28:03 > 0:28:05not least because the government had,
0:28:05 > 0:28:07with great care and in detail,
0:28:07 > 0:28:11prepared for the strike with huge stockpiles,
0:28:11 > 0:28:14vastly in excess of what the usual stockpile was
0:28:14 > 0:28:17and lots of other developments,
0:28:17 > 0:28:20including social security powers and so on.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23So I knew that it was utter folly not to have the ballot
0:28:23 > 0:28:26and gain a democratic mandate for the strike.
0:28:26 > 0:28:30It was guaranteed to divide the labour force, which it did,
0:28:30 > 0:28:34and a divided labour force in that industry or, indeed any industry...
0:28:36 > 0:28:38..was doomed to failure.
0:28:38 > 0:28:41And the loyalty of the miners to Arthur Scargill
0:28:41 > 0:28:44was hideously exploited.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49And out of it came dreadful misery and desperate poverty
0:28:49 > 0:28:52for a lot of the coal-mining communities,
0:28:52 > 0:28:55where people lived, literally,
0:28:55 > 0:28:59on the charitable efforts of the rest of the trade union movement,
0:28:59 > 0:29:02the Labour Party, generous communities,
0:29:02 > 0:29:05foreign mining communities.
0:29:05 > 0:29:09And that isn't how those men and women wanted to live.
0:29:09 > 0:29:11But they sustained the strike.
0:29:11 > 0:29:15And my constituency,
0:29:15 > 0:29:18the men in my constituency, were first out and last back,
0:29:18 > 0:29:19as I would have expected.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22They are incomparable.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26As the strike wore on, and the bitterness increased
0:29:26 > 0:29:28and the poverty deepened,
0:29:28 > 0:29:30I was determined that Scargill
0:29:30 > 0:29:34would never be able to use me as an excuse,
0:29:34 > 0:29:37or the Labour Party as an excuse, for the failure of the strike.
0:29:37 > 0:29:43I was determined that the full blame would be where it belonged,
0:29:43 > 0:29:45and that was him.
0:29:45 > 0:29:46Not on the miners' executive,
0:29:46 > 0:29:48who were kept in the dark for much of the dispute.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54Or on the miners themselves, who were...
0:29:56 > 0:29:59..stalwart to a superhuman level
0:29:59 > 0:30:02and their families and wives were extraordinary.
0:30:02 > 0:30:06I was determined that he would historically carry the blame.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10And that is pretty much, except for his closest adherents,
0:30:10 > 0:30:12is what's happened.
0:30:12 > 0:30:13I took no pleasure in it,
0:30:13 > 0:30:16but I wanted to see justice done.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21Now, the 1980s were a tumultuous time in British politics
0:30:21 > 0:30:24and one of the things you were trying to do
0:30:24 > 0:30:29was to change the Labour Party and, of course, in 1985,
0:30:29 > 0:30:31and we're going to hear it in a minute,
0:30:31 > 0:30:36you made another very famous speech about Militant tendency.
0:30:36 > 0:30:40I'll tell you what happens with impossible promises.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42You start...
0:30:42 > 0:30:44with far-fetched resolutions.
0:30:45 > 0:30:50They are then pickled into a rigid dogma code
0:30:50 > 0:30:54and you go through the years sticking to that -
0:30:54 > 0:30:59outdated, misplaced, irrelevant to the real needs
0:30:59 > 0:31:03and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council -
0:31:03 > 0:31:08a Labour council - hiring taxis to scuttle round a city,
0:31:08 > 0:31:11handing out redundancy notices to its own workers.
0:31:11 > 0:31:13SHOUTS AND APPLAUSE
0:31:18 > 0:31:20And we saw there Derek Hatton,
0:31:20 > 0:31:24who was technically the deputy leader of the council, heckling you.
0:31:24 > 0:31:29Another Liverpool politician, the Liverpool MP Eric Heffer -
0:31:29 > 0:31:32he walked out, didn't it?
0:31:32 > 0:31:37What did it feel like when you're making a speech like that,
0:31:37 > 0:31:40of such force and with such a reaction?
0:31:41 > 0:31:44I think you - if I'm honest with myself -
0:31:44 > 0:31:49derive a certain degree of stimulus from...
0:31:50 > 0:31:53..if you like, rhetorically fixing your bayonet and charging.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57And I also felt a sense of relief
0:31:57 > 0:32:01because I'd wanted to make this speech the year before,
0:32:01 > 0:32:03but the year before was the middle of the miners' strike
0:32:03 > 0:32:08and I knew that, with all of the swirling emotions of solidarity
0:32:08 > 0:32:12and the inclination towards ultra-leftism
0:32:12 > 0:32:16and the war against Thatcherism,
0:32:16 > 0:32:19I never would have got a hearing,
0:32:19 > 0:32:22and it was vital for me to deliver that message
0:32:22 > 0:32:28directly to the Labour movement, if you like, between its eyes.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31Knowing that the Liverpool Militants were there.
0:32:31 > 0:32:36And so I really didn't give a damn what happened to me afterwards.
0:32:36 > 0:32:42What I wanted to do was to expose and destroy them
0:32:42 > 0:32:46and make whatever contribution I could
0:32:46 > 0:32:51to saving the city of Liverpool from the abyss into which
0:32:51 > 0:32:56it would have been plunged with the continuation of their policies.
0:32:56 > 0:32:58We said at the beginning that you were a man of the left.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01I guess you probably still say that you're a man of the left?
0:33:01 > 0:33:04- Oh, I am, yeah.- But you were certainly more left-wing
0:33:04 > 0:33:07than, say, James Callaghan or Harold Wilson,
0:33:07 > 0:33:09and yet you moved to this stage in your leadership
0:33:09 > 0:33:13where you were talking about things like common sense and realism.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15It didn't sound very ideological.
0:33:15 > 0:33:18Well, I've always done that, though, you see.
0:33:18 > 0:33:23We talked earlier about the way I was brought up and the values,
0:33:23 > 0:33:30political and other values, that I imbibed without consciously doing so
0:33:30 > 0:33:33and that was there all the time.
0:33:33 > 0:33:37If it doesn't work, it's no good to working-class people. I mean...
0:33:37 > 0:33:39HE CHUCKLES
0:33:39 > 0:33:44And you can enchant people by ideological flights of fancy
0:33:44 > 0:33:47but that's not going to help them at all.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51The greatest guide to that was the man
0:33:51 > 0:33:56that I considered to be my lodestar,
0:33:56 > 0:33:58and that's Nye Bevan.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02Bevan, the father of the National Health Service,
0:34:02 > 0:34:05which he based on a working model that they had
0:34:05 > 0:34:09through the collective provision of quality health care,
0:34:09 > 0:34:14paid for by tiny contributions by all the workers in Tredegar,
0:34:14 > 0:34:16the town I came from.
0:34:16 > 0:34:21That showed that socialism had to work in practice,
0:34:21 > 0:34:23or it was a decoration
0:34:23 > 0:34:26and being a socialist was nothing better than a hobby.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29And, to me...
0:34:29 > 0:34:32to me, it's still the way to emancipate the world.
0:34:32 > 0:34:37Do you anticipate that the next generation of leaders
0:34:37 > 0:34:42would be more technocratic, would be a bit more like New Labour became?
0:34:45 > 0:34:48Obviously, you were hoping for Neil Kinnock to be in Number Ten,
0:34:48 > 0:34:50- not for somebody else.- Sure.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53But was your vision of the Labour Party in the future
0:34:53 > 0:34:56that it would be a more technocratic party?
0:34:56 > 0:35:00I was ecstatic when the Labour Party,
0:35:00 > 0:35:03first of all under John Smith, who tragically died,
0:35:03 > 0:35:07and then Tony Blair, went from strength to strength.
0:35:07 > 0:35:09I think the problem was that,
0:35:09 > 0:35:12despite great talent in that government -
0:35:12 > 0:35:18I mean, seriously profound talent - and certainly a sense
0:35:18 > 0:35:22of progressive, decent and patriotic mission...
0:35:23 > 0:35:29..they allowed themselves to lose impetus.
0:35:29 > 0:35:34Because... Pierre Mendes France said that socialism is like a bicycle -
0:35:34 > 0:35:37if it doesn't go forward, it falls over.
0:35:37 > 0:35:42I mean, it's a very basic analogy but it is entirely appropriate.
0:35:42 > 0:35:46And I understand the pressures and the distractions
0:35:46 > 0:35:49and indeed the temptations, in some ways.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52But in the very frequent conversations I had with Tony -
0:35:52 > 0:35:57and he was always immensely generous with his time, as was Gordon Brown -
0:35:57 > 0:36:01I tried to get that across, and I would simply get agreement,
0:36:01 > 0:36:05and there's nothing more infuriating
0:36:05 > 0:36:08than getting agreement and then no action.
0:36:08 > 0:36:10I think that's what happened.
0:36:11 > 0:36:16It meant that, very gradually, that breadth of appeal
0:36:16 > 0:36:21which gives social democracy, democratic socialism, New Labour...
0:36:21 > 0:36:24I don't give a damn about the label on it!
0:36:27 > 0:36:30..real momentum.
0:36:30 > 0:36:34Underneath it all, the confidence was declining.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37And I greatly, greatly regret that
0:36:37 > 0:36:41because these were good, talented people
0:36:41 > 0:36:46with a noble cause and the only way to do it
0:36:46 > 0:36:49to its full extent is to maintain the momentum.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52Now you've talked about some big figures - Nye Bevan,
0:36:52 > 0:36:54Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Denis Healey.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59One of the biggest figures of the 20th century was Margaret Thatcher.
0:36:59 > 0:37:03- You faced her against the dispatch box.- Yes.
0:37:03 > 0:37:05What was she like as an opponent?
0:37:05 > 0:37:08It wasn't easy. She was a woman of distinction.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11She was 17 years older than I am,
0:37:11 > 0:37:13and I don't know whether it was my upbringing or...
0:37:14 > 0:37:18..innate courteous deference or whatever else -
0:37:18 > 0:37:22I don't know, I'm making no excuses, these are just realities -
0:37:22 > 0:37:25I could never really tackle her in the way
0:37:25 > 0:37:28in which I was able to tackle, for instance, John Major,
0:37:28 > 0:37:32a man of the same age, the same kind of background.
0:37:32 > 0:37:36And I could be as relentless as I liked with him.
0:37:36 > 0:37:40If I misjudged it with Margaret Thatcher,
0:37:40 > 0:37:42and even managed to land a blow...
0:37:44 > 0:37:47..the consequences would not be full credit
0:37:47 > 0:37:50against a woman who, without exaggeration,
0:37:50 > 0:37:53as you will probably know yourself cos you were around at the time,
0:37:53 > 0:37:57was profoundly hated amongst many people
0:37:57 > 0:37:59in a large part of the country.
0:37:59 > 0:38:04Certainly as hated as she was, in other parts of the country, admired.
0:38:07 > 0:38:12The reality is that I didn't sort of consciously sit down
0:38:12 > 0:38:18and think that I should be reserved in my attack,
0:38:18 > 0:38:21but I knew that in my choice of language
0:38:21 > 0:38:25and in my choice of targets, I had to take a degree of care.
0:38:25 > 0:38:30Mrs Thatcher would, I think, often for self-defensive reasons,
0:38:30 > 0:38:33seize upon a maxim...
0:38:34 > 0:38:36..and make it an ideology.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39I mean, Thatcherism emerged in that way.
0:38:39 > 0:38:43It wasn't an "ism" until pretty much..
0:38:45 > 0:38:48..around the time of the Falklands War,
0:38:48 > 0:38:55when Britain was making a noticeable but slight recovery
0:38:55 > 0:38:57from the devastation wrought
0:38:57 > 0:39:00by the misplaced policies of she and Geoffrey Howe -
0:39:00 > 0:39:03a lovely man, he was, but nevertheless he was wrong -
0:39:03 > 0:39:09in '79 and '80, when 25% of British manufacturing capacity
0:39:09 > 0:39:11was eradicated.
0:39:11 > 0:39:13And it took quite a time for that to recover
0:39:13 > 0:39:16but it was starting to recover,
0:39:16 > 0:39:21and the newspapers started speaking of "Thatcher-ism"
0:39:21 > 0:39:25and I think Mrs Thatcher inhaled.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28And eventually, of course, it brought her downfall.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30So she was replaced by John Major,
0:39:30 > 0:39:34and so you're fighting the 1992 election against him.
0:39:34 > 0:39:38In many ways, you're both similar sort of campaigners.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41John Major would take to his soapbox,
0:39:41 > 0:39:45you always seem very happy when you're wandering along streets
0:39:45 > 0:39:48- or popping into cafes and talking to people in the pub.- Yeah.
0:39:50 > 0:39:53Was it an old-fashioned campaign, do you think?
0:39:53 > 0:39:55Was it perhaps the last old-fashioned campaign we've had?
0:39:55 > 0:39:59No, in both the '87 and '92 elections,
0:39:59 > 0:40:03people said, "If it had been judged on the campaigns, you won."
0:40:03 > 0:40:07And we were good. I mean, we were very professional
0:40:07 > 0:40:12but we also had vigour and we had a sense of belief.
0:40:12 > 0:40:18And that carried us. More in '87, when we were really up against it
0:40:18 > 0:40:21and we had to stop being third in that election,
0:40:21 > 0:40:24which we succeeded in doing.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28In '92, we were very good, too, even more professional.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31Now along comes John, John Major,
0:40:31 > 0:40:35and he's a kid from an even more difficult background...
0:40:35 > 0:40:36Well, my background wasn't difficult,
0:40:36 > 0:40:39my background was wonderful,
0:40:39 > 0:40:41but he had a difficult background.
0:40:43 > 0:40:48He won his way through the ranks of the Tory Party and, in desperation,
0:40:48 > 0:40:52because the wheels were coming off their campaign,
0:40:52 > 0:40:57he literally pulled out an orange box or whatever it was
0:40:57 > 0:41:01from the boot of his coach and got a bullhorn
0:41:01 > 0:41:05and did what he'd done on the streets 25 years before.
0:41:05 > 0:41:12So people looking for the big change from Thatcher, Thatcherism...
0:41:14 > 0:41:17..were presented not just with somebody
0:41:17 > 0:41:19who manifestly wasn't Margaret Thatcher,
0:41:19 > 0:41:27but with a guy who was proving by his very physical existence
0:41:27 > 0:41:31and presentation that the great change had come.
0:41:31 > 0:41:35So the people who wanted to vote for the big change
0:41:35 > 0:41:40could vote for the change and continue to vote Conservative.
0:41:40 > 0:41:44You didn't win. How did it feel in those hours after defeat?
0:41:46 > 0:41:51A deep, bone marrow disappointment,
0:41:51 > 0:41:53but here's the extraordinary thing.
0:41:53 > 0:41:59This is what happens at times when people grieve.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03The distraction of being
0:42:03 > 0:42:07absolutely preoccupied with trying to help the people
0:42:07 > 0:42:12who'd given me their lives in my staff with their future
0:42:12 > 0:42:15meant that months passed before I sort of woke up one morning
0:42:15 > 0:42:20and thought, "What about losing that election?" You know?
0:42:20 > 0:42:25Then I gave way for a week or so, it certainly wasn't more than that,
0:42:25 > 0:42:31to attempts at self-consolation,
0:42:31 > 0:42:34assisted by Glenys, but that didn't last long,
0:42:34 > 0:42:37because the water had flowed
0:42:37 > 0:42:42and the curtain had come down, to use John Major's phrase.
0:42:42 > 0:42:47I was just grateful that that preoccupation
0:42:47 > 0:42:50had made my life much too busy,
0:42:50 > 0:42:56and too concerned to be bothered much about losing the election.
0:42:56 > 0:42:59You were joking earlier, before we started,
0:42:59 > 0:43:03- that your time as Labour leader had been your midlife crisis.- Yes.
0:43:03 > 0:43:08Not many people can date their midlife crisis with precision.
0:43:08 > 0:43:14Mine started on October the 2nd 1983 and it ended on July the 18th 1992!
0:43:14 > 0:43:15HE CHUCKLES
0:43:15 > 0:43:17But since then you've been a European Commissioner,
0:43:17 > 0:43:20you're now a member of the House of Lords.
0:43:20 > 0:43:22Did you enjoy your time in Europe?
0:43:22 > 0:43:25Well, short of another ice age,
0:43:25 > 0:43:28I was born and brought up and have always lived in Europe
0:43:28 > 0:43:30cos that's where the UK is,
0:43:30 > 0:43:33and Europe's had many reasons to be grateful for that
0:43:33 > 0:43:39and will continue to, despite what happened in the referendum.
0:43:39 > 0:43:42As a young man, you were very critical of the Common Market,
0:43:42 > 0:43:46as it was called, so do you understand
0:43:46 > 0:43:49why people wanted to reject the European Union?
0:43:49 > 0:43:51Er...
0:43:51 > 0:43:55I understand why they...
0:43:55 > 0:44:00accepted the absolutely false prospectus that was hurled at them
0:44:00 > 0:44:05over 30 years by newspapers and by some politicians
0:44:05 > 0:44:09and latterly by those who argued for the Leave campaign.
0:44:09 > 0:44:10I understand that.
0:44:12 > 0:44:17But the awful reality is that the people who will suffer most
0:44:17 > 0:44:23as a result of the dislocation and long-term uncertainty...
0:44:24 > 0:44:30..economically, will be a lot of the people who voted to leave
0:44:30 > 0:44:33because they were taught to become obsessed with immigration,
0:44:33 > 0:44:38particularly in areas where there is no immigration to speak of.
0:44:38 > 0:44:42I'm actually still devastated by the outcome.
0:44:42 > 0:44:43Not in personal terms.
0:44:45 > 0:44:48You know, Glenys and I are in our 70s.
0:44:48 > 0:44:50Our children are successful,
0:44:50 > 0:44:54our grandchildren are bright and fit and will make their own way.
0:44:54 > 0:44:56That's all fine.
0:44:56 > 0:45:03But for our country, I grieve at the way in which this...
0:45:05 > 0:45:09..dislocation, this withdrawal took place for all the wrong reasons...
0:45:10 > 0:45:12..and that's dreadful.
0:45:12 > 0:45:14So, at the end of this interview,
0:45:14 > 0:45:17we've spanned quite a long period of time
0:45:17 > 0:45:21from your beginnings in the Valleys to life now.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25If you had that 15-year-old Neil Kinnock here,
0:45:25 > 0:45:29the boy who joined the Labour Party illegally,
0:45:29 > 0:45:31what would you say to him?
0:45:31 > 0:45:32Um...
0:45:34 > 0:45:38"Carry on. Gird your loins, sustain your beliefs.
0:45:40 > 0:45:43"Work for enlightenment and emancipation."
0:45:43 > 0:45:45And that would sound a bit pompous, actually.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48I'd translate it into slightly different terms.
0:45:49 > 0:45:54I might say, "Don't ever think of a CAREER in politics."
0:45:54 > 0:45:57Cos all the people that I've ever met who think of...
0:45:57 > 0:46:00who say to me, "Mr Kinnock, I would like a career in politics,"
0:46:00 > 0:46:02I say, "Don't!"
0:46:02 > 0:46:05Because some of the biggest dolts I've ever met,
0:46:05 > 0:46:07some of the most useless articles I've ever met
0:46:07 > 0:46:10are people who've thought of "a career in politics".
0:46:10 > 0:46:12It's not a career. It's...
0:46:14 > 0:46:18..the fact that if you want to change the world
0:46:18 > 0:46:22and you've got the sense to organise for that,
0:46:22 > 0:46:24if you're very, very, very lucky,
0:46:24 > 0:46:28other people will put their trust in you and give you their vote,
0:46:28 > 0:46:31but never think of it as a career.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34I might even say, um...
0:46:34 > 0:46:36No, I wouldn't. I was going to say,
0:46:36 > 0:46:41"Be a bit more cautious in your choice of causes and associates,
0:46:41 > 0:46:45"because if you pick the wrong ones,
0:46:45 > 0:46:50"or they are a long way from convention,
0:46:50 > 0:46:52"it'll come up to bite you," but I wouldn't.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54I think you've got to take some risks in any case,
0:46:54 > 0:46:55and be true to yourself.
0:46:55 > 0:46:58I suppose if I had to use a phrase...
0:46:59 > 0:47:02..it would be the one that my father used.
0:47:02 > 0:47:03"Be true to yourself."
0:47:05 > 0:47:08- Neil, Lord Kinnock, thank you very much.- Thank you.