:15:27. > :30:42.Subtitles will begin at three o'clock.
:30:43. > :30:53.I just want to come back, Lord Carlile is everybody knows was the
:30:54. > :30:57.former independent reviewer of terrorism, and the question I would
:30:58. > :31:02.have is, Alex quite rightly said, where is the evidence. The answer is
:31:03. > :31:06.there might be some evidence in the internal review that the Home Office
:31:07. > :31:12.did, but they refused to share that with anybody. They will not do an
:31:13. > :31:17.independent review. So we don't know what the evidence is, other than to
:31:18. > :31:24.say there are elements within the Muslim community who are very
:31:25. > :31:28.concerned about Prevent, who are very suspicious about it, and this
:31:29. > :31:32.apparent reluctance to review it is adding to that issue. At the end of
:31:33. > :31:37.the day, it doesn't matter how small that part of the Muslim community is
:31:38. > :31:42.that is suspicious of Prevent, because it is probably in those
:31:43. > :31:46.parts of that community where it is essential that there is trust and
:31:47. > :31:52.confidence that the intelligence comes forward. In other areas of the
:31:53. > :31:55.Muslim community who are very supportive of the police and
:31:56. > :31:59.security services, you are not likely to have people being
:32:00. > :32:03.radicalised. It is in exactly those places where the most suspicion is
:32:04. > :32:06.that the most vital intelligence is going to come forward, and therefore
:32:07. > :32:10.it is essential that that part of the Muslim community has trust and
:32:11. > :32:15.confidence in whatever replaces Prevent. If I can just pick on
:32:16. > :32:20.something that Brandon said in his opening address, Prevent is but one
:32:21. > :32:23.part of the security picture, and it is interesting that the Conservative
:32:24. > :32:30.manifesto talks about bringing in new terrorism powers in the wake of
:32:31. > :32:37.Manchester, looking at new ways to tackle extremism, but there was a
:32:38. > :32:40.counter extremism built a few years ago that never got legs, and there
:32:41. > :32:53.seems to be some disagreement on how to tackle extremism and how to
:32:54. > :32:59.define it. So I just wondered, Max Hale who is Alex's successor made
:33:00. > :33:02.this point the other day that perhaps we don't need to have new
:33:03. > :33:07.laws, we should just use the ones that we have. A couple of points
:33:08. > :33:10.there, one is what we have said, we will look at and do what is
:33:11. > :33:16.necessary to keep the country safe, and that is working with our police
:33:17. > :33:21.and security services to work with what is important at one time. One
:33:22. > :33:25.is that if you look at the orders for example you have just mentioned,
:33:26. > :33:34.they are one of the tools that the services have at their disposal,
:33:35. > :33:36.there are others. But if there is a clear issue, stopping them
:33:37. > :33:40.permanently is a different tool, that is something we can do as well,
:33:41. > :33:46.so it is just one of the tools that the services have to look at what is
:33:47. > :33:49.appropriate. But equally, one of the challenges and one of the things we
:33:50. > :33:52.have got to be very clear about with any legislation about this is one of
:33:53. > :33:58.the areas where it comes back to the point made a short while ago, which
:33:59. > :34:01.is around how people are being radicalised and where they are being
:34:02. > :34:04.radicalised, and one of the challenges now is that a lot of that
:34:05. > :34:08.can be happening online, and the challenges online and the speed with
:34:09. > :34:12.which the online community is moving is that as quickly as you can
:34:13. > :34:15.legislate, bearing in mind the time frame it takes to legislate, the
:34:16. > :34:18.technology and the way they are spreading information can move on,
:34:19. > :34:23.so it is better to look at other tools and other service providers
:34:24. > :34:27.are getting down, and another thing Prevent has done is taken 270,000
:34:28. > :34:30.websites down that have been spreading radicalisation, but there
:34:31. > :34:36.is always more to do because this is a fast-moving area. Diane, you
:34:37. > :34:38.wanted to talk about that? I wanted to say that one of the ways people
:34:39. > :34:49.can also be radicalised is in prison. Not necessarily with the man
:34:50. > :34:58.who had the suicide bomb in Manchester, but there is a pattern
:34:59. > :35:02.with jihadis, and I think Prevent should be more proactive in prisons.
:35:03. > :35:10.I think it is difficult in the climate of trust at the witches
:35:11. > :35:18.about keeping in mum -- which is about keeping imams and so on
:35:19. > :35:22.separate from other prisoners, but I think there is more to be done in
:35:23. > :35:28.prisons about not having people radicalised. This idea that concerns
:35:29. > :35:30.about Prevent are ill informed conjecture from the Muslim
:35:31. > :35:40.community, if it is just ill informed conjecture, why is it that
:35:41. > :35:43.the independent review, the Home Affairs Select Committee looked at
:35:44. > :35:46.this thoroughly and called from review, and why would the joint
:35:47. > :35:50.committee on human rights call for a review. It is more than conjecture
:35:51. > :35:59.in the Muslim community. Independent stakeholders have said no room for
:36:00. > :36:03.complacency, we have to work. I interested give any previous views
:36:04. > :36:05.on security services and special Branch, were you to be elected in
:36:06. > :36:10.government and become Home Secretary, how would you get that
:36:11. > :36:14.balance back? How would you work with them to try to work through
:36:15. > :36:21.these issues? I don't know what you are saying about my previous views.
:36:22. > :36:30.You wanted to have them abolished. That was some time ago. MI5 at that
:36:31. > :36:36.time needed reforming, and it has now been reformed, and so a Labour
:36:37. > :36:41.government would support MI5. I think it is a question of having the
:36:42. > :36:44.proper legal oversight. With all of these issues, in the end of you have
:36:45. > :36:49.the proper illegal oversight, you can have a service that both works
:36:50. > :36:57.for the British people, helps keep the British people safe but doesn't
:36:58. > :37:01.overstep the mark in terms of civil liberties. I have to say, as part of
:37:02. > :37:08.the debates around the investigatory Powers act, I had the privilege to
:37:09. > :37:13.go to Vauxhall Cross and GCHQ and talk directly to the security
:37:14. > :37:20.services. I was absolutely amazed at what it is possible to do, they do
:37:21. > :37:25.an incredible job. But, and I think the investigatory Powers act is a
:37:26. > :37:29.step forward in terms of accountability, independent
:37:30. > :37:32.assessment of the risks and whether or not granting a warrant is
:37:33. > :37:35.justified. I think there is a lot of good in it, there are parts of it we
:37:36. > :37:41.disagree with fundamentally, but generally speaking it is a step in
:37:42. > :37:45.the right direction, but temporary extrusion orders are key to
:37:46. > :37:51.understanding what happened in Manchester. We now know that this
:37:52. > :37:55.guy went to Libya, potentially went to Syria, and then came back to the
:37:56. > :38:02.UK. There has been a power on the statute book for two years for these
:38:03. > :38:07.people who have been and involved in terrorism abroad to be prevented
:38:08. > :38:11.from coming back into the UK unless and until they agree to undergo a
:38:12. > :38:31.Die Roten -- a de Waard deradicalisation programme. I think
:38:32. > :38:36.it hasn't been used that often, it wasn't used in this case. We have to
:38:37. > :38:41.look at how the existing powers are being used, how effectively are they
:38:42. > :38:43.being used. The calls to the anti-terrorist hotline, it is the
:38:44. > :38:48.Met to manage the hotline and they said they had no record of any
:38:49. > :38:53.calls. But that just goes to the point, did those people speak to
:38:54. > :38:58.Greater Manchester Police, they thought it was anti-terrorism, maybe
:38:59. > :39:02.it was something else. But I think we have the right level of powers
:39:03. > :39:06.for the security services, and in fact the thing that we disagree with
:39:07. > :39:11.in the investigatory Powers act, which is Internet connection
:39:12. > :39:19.records, effectively a year's worth of your web history being recorded
:39:20. > :39:24.by your Internet services provider in case the police and security
:39:25. > :39:30.services want to look at it is going too far. It is an intrusion into
:39:31. > :39:34.peoples privacy, and it is creating a vast amount of data which could
:39:35. > :39:41.easily be hacked into by criminals or foreign hostile countries. And in
:39:42. > :39:43.any event, at those briefings that I attended, the security services said
:39:44. > :39:50.they did not need Internet connection records to be stored by
:39:51. > :39:56.those Internet companies in order to keep this country safe from
:39:57. > :40:02.terrorism. In which case, how on earth can we justify this massive
:40:03. > :40:05.intrusion into people's privacy if the very people that it is intended
:40:06. > :40:12.to help are saying it is not necessary in order to prevent
:40:13. > :40:16.terrorism. The issue of the IP bill takes us into more general issues of
:40:17. > :40:19.policing beyond security, because of course chief constables will
:40:20. > :40:25.invariably talk about Internet connection records and the
:40:26. > :40:28.requirements under the IP bill in terms of a much wider range of
:40:29. > :40:33.powers, and investigations including missing people, and that is missing
:40:34. > :40:39.people actually makes of a massive chunk of that area, and this brings
:40:40. > :40:42.us into the issue about social media companies, the debate about free
:40:43. > :40:45.speech and where that balance lies, so perhaps we can get some views
:40:46. > :40:51.from the panel on those kind of issues. While I am on a roll, we
:40:52. > :40:56.have looked at this in connection with online pornography. We clearly
:40:57. > :41:02.want to protect young people from accessing Internet pornography. And
:41:03. > :41:07.the measures that the Government put forward on this, bearing in mind
:41:08. > :41:11.that certainly the most popular pawn sites are in the United States of
:41:12. > :41:22.America, the two provisions in the Bill were to levy a fine on those
:41:23. > :41:26.companies, and the next was to block access to those websites, and the
:41:27. > :41:29.people who were going to be doing this, the independent body who were
:41:30. > :41:33.going to be doing this said that that first provision was
:41:34. > :41:37.unenforceable, and that is the problem with these big social media
:41:38. > :41:44.companies, whether you are talking about encrypting communication, or
:41:45. > :41:49.Facebook or other sites which post terrorist material, this can only be
:41:50. > :41:55.done in close corporation with the American government. It can only be
:41:56. > :41:58.done on an almost voluntary basis, by putting pressure on rather than
:41:59. > :42:04.legislating against these big American tech companies. You are not
:42:05. > :42:08.going to, and so we have looked at it, we have explored it, we have
:42:09. > :42:12.come to the conclusion it is not possible. So for the Conservative
:42:13. > :42:17.Party to say that they are going to legislate to not allow WhatsApp to
:42:18. > :42:24.have end-to-end encryption, to order Facebook to take down terrorist
:42:25. > :42:30.material, it is not practical to do so. We need to look at other ways of
:42:31. > :42:40.tackling these issues. I will pick up on a couple of bits. I find it
:42:41. > :42:42.slightly worrying that Ayane -- Diane is talking about things as
:42:43. > :42:46.Home Office policy that is not Home Office at all, prisons is the
:42:47. > :42:51.Ministry of Justice, and you should know that. That is because when I
:42:52. > :42:54.worked at the Home Office, it did cover prisons, and I think we should
:42:55. > :42:59.work more closely with them. You need to think about what the Home
:43:00. > :43:03.Office does now. But at the same time, you are talking about a policy
:43:04. > :43:10.happening that the emoji a is actually doing, which is great if
:43:11. > :43:14.you support it, but it would be nice if you would understand it as well.
:43:15. > :43:22.We are not suggesting to do that at all, and I do agree with it on two
:43:23. > :43:26.levels. The security services do do an amazing job, and what they do is
:43:27. > :43:30.quite phenomenal, we really do have amongst the best in the world, but I
:43:31. > :43:33.do agree that one of the challenges we have with the Internet companies,
:43:34. > :43:37.it comes back to appoint to have made a couple of times, one is the
:43:38. > :43:40.pace at which technology moves is so fast that legislation cannot
:43:41. > :43:44.necessarily keep up, just the process of legislation, by the time
:43:45. > :43:49.you have done that, they have changed the terminology. And the way
:43:50. > :43:52.they encrypt means it doesn't work that well, and that is why the Home
:43:53. > :43:56.Secretary has just a few weeks ago had these companies in to work with
:43:57. > :44:00.them. It is in their interest as well, and it is not just about the
:44:01. > :44:03.big companies, it is small start-up companies, all over the world one or
:44:04. > :44:07.two people who don't necessarily realise that the platform they are
:44:08. > :44:10.creating can be a hiding place for people in organised crime or
:44:11. > :44:13.terrorism, and these big companies, working with them to help the
:44:14. > :44:17.smaller companies understand what they are doing so we do not have
:44:18. > :44:22.safe havens created the terrorists and people in organised crime who
:44:23. > :44:25.can prey on young people, older people, whoever they are. Rob
:44:26. > :44:31.Wainwright at Europol makes a point we should think about. Whether it is
:44:32. > :44:36.transport, global communications, telecommunications, we can intercept
:44:37. > :44:39.and interrupt those with democratic accountability, and we have to work
:44:40. > :44:42.with the Internet companies to make sure we can keep their customers
:44:43. > :44:49.safe and they play an important part in that, it is right for them and
:44:50. > :44:53.the customers, and it is not right to allow terrorists and organised
:44:54. > :44:57.crime is to have a safe haven. Isn't a safe haven. Security services have
:44:58. > :45:03.ways of getting the information. A lot of it is around directed
:45:04. > :45:06.equipment interference. If you use equipment interference, you can see
:45:07. > :45:10.exactly what is on the phone or computer screen at either end, and
:45:11. > :45:17.end-to-end encryption is no longer an issue. Some of this with the
:45:18. > :45:20.technology companies might come down to philosophy. The leaks in relation
:45:21. > :45:25.to US intelligence that we saw in relation to the Manchester bombing
:45:26. > :45:31.clearly showed a very different approach in the US to Britain, and
:45:32. > :45:34.I'm just wondering, have they got the balance right, do you believe,
:45:35. > :45:39.about freedom of speech and the right to have discussions privately
:45:40. > :45:43.versus the security services, the intelligence agencies and the police
:45:44. > :45:48.to be able to gather the information that they need? I seem to recall
:45:49. > :45:52.about five minutes ago you asked me a question, and I didn't get a
:45:53. > :45:56.chance to answer it yet. Just to backtrack a little bit if I may. The
:45:57. > :45:59.second chamber was quite instrumental in making some
:46:00. > :46:05.improvements to the investigative Powers Bill, unfortunately it
:46:06. > :46:10.doesn't go far enough from our point of view, and we have to consider
:46:11. > :46:13.what is the level of public consent and intrusion which is being
:46:14. > :46:16.propagated now in terms of meta data, even though it might not have
:46:17. > :46:24.your name on it it is sufficient in terms of what activities you are
:46:25. > :46:27.engaging in, and you might say, I have nothing to hide, therefore I
:46:28. > :46:33.have nothing to fear, but I think our societies are bigger than that
:46:34. > :46:40.in terms of you might say a right to privacy extending on to how you can
:46:41. > :46:44.speak and use social media. Don't we want to be rather more cautious
:46:45. > :46:49.before we engage in those kind of intrusions as the EU court of
:46:50. > :46:51.justice themselves warned last December, that it was contravening
:46:52. > :47:01.our basic rights to privacy. Services Institute for when we
:47:02. > :47:07.potentially go in to increasing encroachments of Civil Liberties
:47:08. > :47:09.under the pretext or reasonable justification of security that we
:47:10. > :47:18.end up in the quantity we wanted to avoid which is that we change out of
:47:19. > :47:27.every change -- way of life. It is Franklin's quip that those who would
:47:28. > :47:30.sacrifice liberty and the deal idea of security risk or even deserve to
:47:31. > :47:41.lose both, and we wouldn't want to get into that sit duration. We need
:47:42. > :47:47.to launch a digital bill, a civilian led digital bill of rights whether
:47:48. > :47:50.people who are affected are these decisions themselves have a far
:47:51. > :47:54.greater say in what is going gone. It is all well and good for the two
:47:55. > :47:56.chambers to get together and produce the IP bill but I don't feel there
:47:57. > :48:04.was sufficient public rate or consent with respect to those
:48:05. > :48:07.intrusions. We've been waiting for quite some time for a government
:48:08. > :48:13.digital ill so a citizen of one might take some time. Before I move
:48:14. > :48:33.on, I would like to take some questions from the floor. Is there a
:48:34. > :48:43.microphone? Diane, when we look at you and your leaders' record, and a
:48:44. > :48:46.counterterrorism legislation in Parliament, some people are worried
:48:47. > :48:51.that if you get into Downing Street next week that this country may yet
:48:52. > :48:57.be exposed to a most brutal terrorist attack as did France under
:48:58. > :49:04.a socialist government over the past five years. What do you have to say
:49:05. > :49:10.to them? I would say that it is certainly the case that in a long
:49:11. > :49:16.parliamentary career, Jeremy has voted against a number of pieces of
:49:17. > :49:25.counterterrorism legislation, not all of them. But what you have to
:49:26. > :49:32.remember is that on many of those occasions, Labour MPs marched
:49:33. > :49:36.through the lobbies with Tory MPs. Theresa May herself voted against
:49:37. > :49:44.the prevention of terrorism act in 2005. She voted against patrol
:49:45. > :49:50.orders. She voted against ID cards and David Davis, who is now Brexit
:49:51. > :49:56.Secretary, we marched through lobbies with him. The issue was not
:49:57. > :50:00.that David Davies Theresa May was soft on terrorism, the issue was
:50:01. > :50:06.that we felt that some of this counterterrorism legislation was in
:50:07. > :50:12.fact counter-productive. On the question of detention without trial,
:50:13. > :50:17.which was defeated, ultimately, we could see from the Northern Ireland
:50:18. > :50:23.experience that unlimited internment can be wholly counter-productive. If
:50:24. > :50:30.you were going to say that Jeremy and I are soft on terrorism because
:50:31. > :50:34.we voted against some aspects of counterterrorism legislation, then
:50:35. > :50:38.you also have to say the same thing about the conservatives who voted in
:50:39. > :50:42.the same way. Just to get back to what the minister said about prison,
:50:43. > :50:49.you will not have an effective counterterrorism strategy if we
:50:50. > :50:53.operate in silence. I mention prisons for a reason. There is
:50:54. > :50:59.concern in communities how men are going into prison with no background
:51:00. > :51:04.in the Muslim community and coming out radicalised. I know you have a
:51:05. > :51:06.strategy, I just don't think the strategy is good enough. We need to
:51:07. > :51:12.target and highlight and support people who are at risk of
:51:13. > :51:14.radicalisation imprisoned. Dismissing this issue by saying the
:51:15. > :51:20.prison Department is freed from the Home Office tends to make me think
:51:21. > :51:22.you'd ink you can have a counterterrorism strategy which
:51:23. > :51:28.operates in silence, and that will not meet the modern challenge.
:51:29. > :51:35.Again, you are missing the second part of what I said. We are doing it
:51:36. > :51:39.at the moment. The question misses the entire point about what people
:51:40. > :51:48.are concerned about. It is not just about weather has been a couple of
:51:49. > :51:56.pieces of legislation. Jeremy has made for 45 years, against all
:51:57. > :52:05.interventions. For 35 years. Welcoming terrorists first tea. That
:52:06. > :52:11.is not somebody who anyone can be trusted with anti-terrorism laws. On
:52:12. > :52:16.the other hand, not a week goes past where a Labour peer stands up and
:52:17. > :52:28.demands the introduction of ID cards. 90% of... Labour are all over
:52:29. > :52:32.the place, as far as Civil Liberties and terrorism is concerned. Jeremy
:52:33. > :52:38.Corbyn apparently now is in favour of Trident soap Widnes knows what
:52:39. > :52:51.his attitude is towards the security services now. -- so goodness knows.
:52:52. > :52:59.A follow-up question? Journalist from the sun. A question from the
:53:00. > :53:02.home set -- for Diane Abbott. You said the Home Office is
:53:03. > :53:10.fundamentally racist organisation, you said everything to for the art
:53:11. > :53:16.-- victory for the IRA was a victory for us all and now you are asking
:53:17. > :53:25.for -- to be the boss of the Home Office. If you want to be their
:53:26. > :53:34.boss, is now time to say sorry? It is now time to have a debate about
:53:35. > :53:44.home affairs, which is free from tit-for-tat. I have... 34 use ago, I
:53:45. > :53:48.have spoken about these issues, but I have also, as a constituency MP,
:53:49. > :53:55.worked at the grass roots with my police officers on issues of crime
:53:56. > :54:02.and terrorism. And I am very well aware of people's and sermons on
:54:03. > :54:09.these issues and if the best you can do is retrieve quotes from long ago,
:54:10. > :54:14.you will have to have a better narrative than that, if you are
:54:15. > :54:19.going to persuade the judge people that diverse communities and the
:54:20. > :54:30.Labour Party itself should not be involved in these debates. If you
:54:31. > :54:33.ask police officers now, which leader of which political party do
:54:34. > :54:44.they see as their enemy, they will say it is Theresa May, not Jeremy
:54:45. > :54:48.Corbyn. One more question. After the aftermath of the attacks in
:54:49. > :54:55.Manchester and Westminster, how you deal with this spike in hate crime,
:54:56. > :54:59.a 50% rise, which we haven't talked about at all, which is a deep
:55:00. > :55:04.concern to the Muslim community? This is a thing which needs to be
:55:05. > :55:09.dealt with with great sensitivity and figure. How do you go forward? I
:55:10. > :55:13.would like to hear from the Minister and Diane in particular on what
:55:14. > :55:19.their views are. I have been very clear about this. I was after we saw
:55:20. > :55:22.a spike after the vote last year. I made this point with fellow
:55:23. > :55:27.ministers in Brussels. Any hate crime of any type is completely an
:55:28. > :55:32.acceptable and we all have a part to play in making sure we are very
:55:33. > :55:35.clear about that. We have some of the toughest laws in the world
:55:36. > :55:39.around this and we have to make sure we work with communities to ensure
:55:40. > :55:45.people are clear how an acceptable that is. It is important that they
:55:46. > :55:50.led by and are working with those communities. The spike in hate crime
:55:51. > :55:57.is very concerning an dipped substantially concerns the Muslim
:55:58. > :56:01.community. We had a large Hasidic Jewish community in the country and
:56:02. > :56:08.they too have experienced a rise in hate crime since the Brexit vote. In
:56:09. > :56:11.Hackney. Their figures, for the amount of hate crime they are
:56:12. > :56:18.experiencing, is actually higher than the Metropolitan Police's
:56:19. > :56:22.official figures. I think that when it comes to hate crime, all of us,
:56:23. > :56:29.politicians and journalists, have to be very careful about the rhetoric
:56:30. > :56:32.we use. If we use the rhetoric which takes to the conclusion that certain
:56:33. > :56:38.communities are the enemy within, that does not help to lower the
:56:39. > :56:43.tension. I think there is a policing Di mentioned to combating hate
:56:44. > :56:47.crime, but there is also a dimension about the narrative that politicians
:56:48. > :56:57.and journalists and commentators use. My communities in Hackney, they
:56:58. > :57:00.are very frightened by this rise in hate crime. They are worried that
:57:01. > :57:05.politicians are not doing all they can to have a more temperate
:57:06. > :57:11.discussion on these issues, including immigration. I agree with
:57:12. > :57:14.Diana on this in terms of the rhetoric that politicians use. I
:57:15. > :57:20.referred in my opening remarks about this phrase that the Conservative
:57:21. > :57:24.government are using about making the UK a hostile place for illegal
:57:25. > :57:27.immigrants. When you have fans driving around telling people to go
:57:28. > :57:34.home, that has an impact on those who are here legally as well as
:57:35. > :57:38.those who are here illegally. We saw a significant increase in hate crime
:57:39. > :57:42.following the Brexit vote. Inappropriate use of words by
:57:43. > :57:48.politicians give permission almost two people to turn their prejudice
:57:49. > :57:53.into discrimination against people. It is interesting that Brendan says
:57:54. > :58:00.all hate crime is an acceptable, but only certain hate crime is actually
:58:01. > :58:06.called an aggravated offence. You can get four times the centres for
:58:07. > :58:10.religious or race hatred than you can against a disabled person. I
:58:11. > :58:17.would challenge that as well. At the bottom line is that yes, we have
:58:18. > :58:21.seen over the last six or seven years of decline, up until recently,
:58:22. > :58:28.in what I would call traditional crime. Online fraud cyber crime is
:58:29. > :58:32.now, according to the latest crime survey, almost 50% of the crime that
:58:33. > :58:37.people experience in this country. But recently we have seen an
:58:38. > :58:42.increase in traditional crime, particularly hate crime and knife
:58:43. > :58:47.crime, and including an increase in homicides. That should be a red
:58:48. > :58:52.light to all the political parties that police cuts have gone too far.
:58:53. > :58:58.We need to turn that around and we need the best in community policing,
:58:59. > :59:01.more visible police officers on the street to reassure minority
:59:02. > :59:08.communities, to deter the racist, and to address head-on this pub
:59:09. > :59:13.which I am very glad you raised. That brings us into the area of
:59:14. > :59:17.policing, we will move on from security and talk about that. I
:59:18. > :59:20.think the terrorism Operation Herne asked week highlighted something
:59:21. > :59:28.that had not gained much traction with the public, the issue of cuts.
:59:29. > :59:33.Once you see Army officers guarding venues and areas of significant
:59:34. > :59:40.interest in London, that brings that to the fore. A researcher here has a
:59:41. > :59:56.rest in that we can start the discussion with. Hi. My question
:59:57. > :00:01.is... I know a good few police officers and former police officers
:00:02. > :00:07.and they have all said to me that the guest disaster that has ever
:00:08. > :00:11.been faced is that Tory government's cuts on the police force. All you
:00:12. > :00:19.have to do is look at the Police Federation response to previous Home
:00:20. > :00:24.Secretary is and there are more than 20,000 cuts. If you count the
:00:25. > :00:34.civilian forces as well it is 30 6000. And there are the defence cuts
:00:35. > :00:38.to the military. It is not fit for purpose, it needs more investing
:00:39. > :00:44.money in it and you are the guys that... Why are you building
:00:45. > :00:48.destroyers that can't operate in warm waters? The aircraft carriers,
:00:49. > :00:59.where are the planes? ... We might focus on the issue of
:01:00. > :01:03.police officers specifically, and given that the Conservatives have
:01:04. > :01:08.overseen the austerities regime that has resulted in a lot of 36,000
:01:09. > :01:13.officers and staff, and the police are now having further cuts. Can
:01:14. > :01:20.they cope with the lack of manpower, that reduced manpower? That was a
:01:21. > :01:26.prediction, but that is a matter for the commission and the mayor. I have
:01:27. > :01:29.to say, in terms of where we are, I appreciate the point you're making.
:01:30. > :01:35.We can't live in a vacuum of pretending that we didn't have a
:01:36. > :01:39.horrendous economic in 2010, and from 2010 through 2015, we did have
:01:40. > :01:42.to make some very, very difficult decisions that affected a whole
:01:43. > :01:45.range of areas including local government which I was working in
:01:46. > :01:52.for a while and obviously in police where we had to reduce the funding.
:01:53. > :01:58.We inherited a 152 billion deficit, we have it down to just over 50, but
:01:59. > :02:02.there is a long way to go. To pretend there is this magic money
:02:03. > :02:08.tree is fantasyland. In terms of the policing, the counter-terrorism side
:02:09. > :02:14.has been increasing since 2010 and will increase much more through to
:02:15. > :02:19.2020 going forward. On the police itself, we protected the spending
:02:20. > :02:22.going forward, so for example this year there is not a single police
:02:23. > :02:28.force outside of one that should see anything other than a slight
:02:29. > :02:36.increase or an increase overall in their funding. What they use their
:02:37. > :02:40.reserves for, that is a matter for the PCC and the Chief Constable, but
:02:41. > :02:44.they have had money there, they have had surpluses, and how they use that
:02:45. > :02:48.as a matter for them, and that is why you see a number of the PCC is
:02:49. > :02:55.and Chief constables are recruiting police officers, but just to clarify
:02:56. > :02:59.a point, the ONS is including for the second quarter of this cyber
:03:00. > :03:03.crime and fraud being included, which is good because we stuck to
:03:04. > :03:09.get a real picture and understanding of what is happening. But there are
:03:10. > :03:12.two parts, the crime survey on the reporting of recording of crime, and
:03:13. > :03:16.what is very clear is that crime in this country has fallen by a third
:03:17. > :03:20.since 2010, that is a good thing, including violent crime, and that is
:03:21. > :03:24.thanks to the great work the police are doing where they are very
:03:25. > :03:26.focused on getting crime down and reporting and recording is going up
:03:27. > :03:30.because people have more confidence to come forward, not just recording
:03:31. > :03:35.factors have got better and police are getting better at it, the new
:03:36. > :03:37.commission in London at line they have changed their processes again
:03:38. > :03:42.for knife crime to better assess what the spike is, but more people
:03:43. > :03:46.having confidence to come forward as a good thing, but crime is falling
:03:47. > :03:53.and has fallen since 2010, and we have now protected police funding
:03:54. > :03:57.going forward. I will expect Brian will want to pick up on that. The
:03:58. > :04:01.interesting debate about crime rates rising is the difference between the
:04:02. > :04:05.crime survey Ning Ding and Wales and the public's perception of crime,
:04:06. > :04:09.and real ONS statistics which are showing what police constables have
:04:10. > :04:12.described to me which is very disturbing spikes in knife crime and
:04:13. > :04:16.violent crime, and there doesn't seem to be a great amount of ideas
:04:17. > :04:20.about exactly where it is coming from and why it is happening. People
:04:21. > :04:23.point to cuts, there are other factors as well and I don't know
:04:24. > :04:27.whether Brian wants to pick up on some of those issues. The Liberal
:04:28. > :04:30.Democrats were part of the coalition with the Tories that cut police
:04:31. > :04:36.budgets, and I own that, I accept that. And the evidence showed that
:04:37. > :04:41.in terms of what I call traditional crime, not online crime or cyber
:04:42. > :04:44.crime, it wasn't recorded, so we didn't know what was happening to
:04:45. > :04:48.that, but on the face of it, it looked like those cuts were
:04:49. > :04:53.reasonable against the crime picture. Now we have a fuller crime
:04:54. > :04:56.picture. As I said in my opening remarks, the latest crime survey
:04:57. > :05:00.shows almost half of crime that people experience is cyber crime or
:05:01. > :05:06.online fraud which doesn't normally get reported to the police at all.
:05:07. > :05:11.When my Bag card was cloned and used in Bangkok, my bag just pay the
:05:12. > :05:15.money back, I never bothered the police with it, it was never
:05:16. > :05:20.recorded. But the other important thing is, Liberal Democrats know
:05:21. > :05:26.when to stop, and the Conservatives don't. Violent crime is increasing,
:05:27. > :05:29.hate crime is increasing, knife crime is increasing, there is an
:05:30. > :05:35.epidemic of young people dying on the streets of London, and yet the
:05:36. > :05:41.Metropolitan Police, who have had ?800 million cut from their budget
:05:42. > :05:48.are facing another ?200 million cut between now and the end of what
:05:49. > :05:53.would have been if this Parliament had run its full course. That is ?1
:05:54. > :05:58.billion cuts in policing. And against a trend of an increase in
:05:59. > :06:05.violent crime, that is complete madness. Diane, you have spoken
:06:06. > :06:11.about this issue and concern about policing numbers. Where will the
:06:12. > :06:16.money come from to get extra police officers on the streets, and why is
:06:17. > :06:20.that so important? Let me just touch on something which Brandon said,
:06:21. > :06:25.which is that crime is dropping. I'm surprised you can sit here in the
:06:26. > :06:29.centre of London and sound that complacent, because we know in
:06:30. > :06:36.London, homicides, knife crime and gun crime are rising. What I have
:06:37. > :06:44.said is factually correct. Violent crime is down by nearly 400,000
:06:45. > :06:48.cases since 2010, so it is correct. Within those overall figures, we in
:06:49. > :06:54.London know, and other metropolitan centres... But don't misrepresent
:06:55. > :06:59.what I said. Within those overall figures we have seen a rise in gun
:07:00. > :07:02.crime, I think it is 42%, and knife crime, 24%, and that is a great
:07:03. > :07:07.concern to people. On the question of the need for more police, it goes
:07:08. > :07:12.back to the discussion we had about counter-terrorism. We want to have
:07:13. > :07:17.10,000 more police officers. We think they have got an important
:07:18. > :07:22.role to play in relation to engaging with communities and being a conduit
:07:23. > :07:25.for information and conduct and working with communities, and what
:07:26. > :07:28.you have to remember about the police is the role of the police and
:07:29. > :07:34.the pressures on the police are changing. If you look at the figures
:07:35. > :07:38.and show the amount of time that police officers spend on what you
:07:39. > :07:43.might call thief taking has dropped. A lot of their time now is spent on
:07:44. > :07:46.issues arising from Tory cuts and more broadly in local government. It
:07:47. > :07:52.is dealing with mental health issues, dealing with domestic
:07:53. > :07:56.violence. With the cuts in local authorities and the NHS, in many
:07:57. > :08:00.cases, the police have become the public sector service of last
:08:01. > :08:06.resort, and that puts them under pressure. So we think there should
:08:07. > :08:12.be more police. We are conscious as Brandon has conceded that we have
:08:13. > :08:19.20,000 fewer police officers then we had in 2010 when Theresa May's watch
:08:20. > :08:23.started. We want to start to remedy that with 10,000 more, and we will
:08:24. > :08:28.pay for it as we have said by reversing the Tory cuts in capital
:08:29. > :08:41.gains tax which will raise 2.75 billion. My understanding is that
:08:42. > :08:43.you won't be spending 300 million until 2020/2021, and they did
:08:44. > :08:50.include the first year training costs and equipment costs which add
:08:51. > :08:54.an extra 20,000 on to the ?30,000 pay bill, and therefore
:08:55. > :08:57.unfortunately, not only are you promising 10,000 officers only in
:08:58. > :09:01.the last year of the Parliament and not before, but also that you do not
:09:02. > :09:07.have enough money in the budget to actually train and equip them. We
:09:08. > :09:10.are planning to recruit... You will know better than I, you can't
:09:11. > :09:16.recruit 10,000 officers in 12 months. We are saying that over a
:09:17. > :09:19.period for five years, we will have recruited 10,000 further officers.
:09:20. > :09:25.That is exactly what I have just said, yes. But what I am saying to
:09:26. > :09:28.you, what I reminded you of is that we will be finding the money to pay
:09:29. > :09:39.for those officers, and any related costs, from the 2.75 billion. We are
:09:40. > :09:45.putting 1.2 billion into this, and Labour are putting 771 million over
:09:46. > :09:52.the course of the next Parliament. You already had a chance to have a
:09:53. > :09:55.go at each other last night! For me, the Greens, politics is about
:09:56. > :09:58.priorities, and if you want to pave your public services, and arguably
:09:59. > :10:06.police is one of them, you need to be able to pave that properly, and
:10:07. > :10:09.we have seen cuts in particularly community support officers, they
:10:10. > :10:12.were popular in terms of neighbourhood policing, and they
:10:13. > :10:15.were a conduit for people to be able to talk to communicate, for school
:10:16. > :10:18.children and youths to be able to talk to those officers and tell them
:10:19. > :10:24.about who is taking knives into school and all the rest of it. But
:10:25. > :10:30.we mustn't confuse correlation with causation, but there are a series of
:10:31. > :10:33.correlations in terms of work capability assessments, the bedroom
:10:34. > :10:35.tax, there is a correlation between those individuals on the sharp end
:10:36. > :10:43.of that, rising inequality across society, greater disgruntlement, and
:10:44. > :10:46.greater crime. So we need to be aware that if we want to do anything
:10:47. > :10:50.about the mantra tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime, we
:10:51. > :10:54.need to investigate and explore and try to make sure that we are not
:10:55. > :10:59.doing things in society which increase inequality and therefore
:11:00. > :11:05.increase the proponent of crime for that reason, and at the same time we
:11:06. > :11:08.must of course increase police numbers, but we need to get a stage
:11:09. > :11:12.where we should be able to reduce police and others there isn't so
:11:13. > :11:18.much crime because we are living in a happy more egalitarian society.
:11:19. > :11:26.The police are facing increasingly complex issues, so the idea that
:11:27. > :11:29.vulnerability, child sex abuse, the idea that you might go to somehow
:11:30. > :11:33.reduced numbers and tackle those issues is something that I would say
:11:34. > :11:39.is quite a big concern for senior police officers. And picking up the
:11:40. > :11:42.gaps that have been created in other public services, for example there
:11:43. > :11:46.is not enough mental health provision, so people are going into
:11:47. > :11:49.crisis and are a danger to themselves and the public more often
:11:50. > :11:53.than has been in the past, and it is the police you have to deal with
:11:54. > :11:57.that as well as the crime issues. Coming back to a few other points, I
:11:58. > :12:00.won't get into how many times over the corporation tax thing has been
:12:01. > :12:05.spent by Labour on various different things. I am agreeing with Brian,
:12:06. > :12:09.the numbers just don't add up in terms of the salaries, training,
:12:10. > :12:13.recruitment. But in terms of policing, the whole world of
:12:14. > :12:19.policing is changing, because crime is changing, we are seeing cyber
:12:20. > :12:22.crime growing, and some of the reforms we have done, we have seen
:12:23. > :12:26.the National Crime Agency taking a lead on some of these things and
:12:27. > :12:31.working with volunteers who have expertise. But we have to be clear
:12:32. > :12:34.about what the numbers are. In London, the Metropolitan Police is
:12:35. > :12:39.the best funded police force in the country by a substantial margin,
:12:40. > :12:43.over ?200 a head, yet the best performing police force, which is
:12:44. > :12:47.Durham, is one of the lower funded, which proves in terms of how police
:12:48. > :12:52.forces operate it is not just about how much money they have got. You
:12:53. > :12:57.are not comparing like with like at all. It is about how police forces
:12:58. > :13:01.spend their money, and that is one of the key points in the report. It
:13:02. > :13:08.is also why we are seeing traditional crime falling, cyber
:13:09. > :13:12.crime and fraud being a new part on that, and police forces across the
:13:13. > :13:16.country are currently sitting on ?1.8 billion of reserves, not
:13:17. > :13:19.capital reserves, that is an increase of 400 million in just the
:13:20. > :13:28.last few years, so the police forces are funded, there is no police force
:13:29. > :13:36.in this country that is at full efficiency. So if we could get the
:13:37. > :13:40.forces to full efficiency, all that time, the police to have the
:13:41. > :13:43.expertise to track down and chase, organised crime, all of these things
:13:44. > :13:49.that are not following traditional policing methods. I very recently
:13:50. > :13:55.was on a visit to one of the units in the north-west, and I tweeted,
:13:56. > :14:01.because I a bit of a fan of Twitter, that I'm going to visit it, and I
:14:02. > :14:04.got criticism from a constituent that I was not in my own
:14:05. > :14:07.constituency and I was visiting a place in the north-west, and when I
:14:08. > :14:10.got there, they were showing me a case that they were working on that
:14:11. > :14:16.involve my part of the world, but it was online work that these police
:14:17. > :14:19.officers were working on, not up working the streets but on a
:14:20. > :14:25.computer tracking down child sexual abuse cases. The expertise that we
:14:26. > :14:30.need is changing, and I very much support the point that Theresa May
:14:31. > :14:35.made as Home Secretary which is that I trust the police to run policing.
:14:36. > :14:40.The NPC C and police constables working with their PC sees are the
:14:41. > :14:44.experts who know how to spend the money in the way that they need to
:14:45. > :14:48.spend it. Tom Winsor is the last person I would want to miss quote,
:14:49. > :14:52.but he did raise a significant red flag a few months ago in his State
:14:53. > :14:58.of policing report where he has always been somebody who talks about
:14:59. > :15:03.efficiency and the ability, the room for more efficiency, but even he is
:15:04. > :15:06.saying that he is quite concerned that police forces can't cope any
:15:07. > :15:11.more. I have been clear about this. I have spoken to Tom Winsor directly
:15:12. > :15:15.about this, and he made it very clear, that publication was
:15:16. > :15:21.misrepresented. I am happy to put this on the record so he can back me
:15:22. > :15:24.up, there is no police force that has found full efficiency, and his
:15:25. > :15:28.comment about how the police are spending the money they have got
:15:29. > :15:32.rather than how much they have got. And did he not also say that he was
:15:33. > :15:35.very concerned about the death of community policing in that report?
:15:36. > :15:40.And what he is referring to is how some police forces do their
:15:41. > :15:43.neighbourhood policing, not the finances they have to do with it.
:15:44. > :15:47.Going back to the issue of the spike in knife crime, the primer still was
:15:48. > :15:50.very keen when she was Home Secretary to have curbs in stop and
:15:51. > :15:53.search, when you talk to police officers they have very real
:15:54. > :15:59.concerns that part of the spike in knife crime is due to what they see
:16:00. > :16:03.as an inability to carry out stop and search, and there isn't
:16:04. > :16:07.necessarily empirical evidence to all of this, but it is felt on the
:16:08. > :16:10.street, and in certain communities, such as Hackney, people are calling
:16:11. > :16:14.for more stop and search to stop the issue, and I wonder if we will see a
:16:15. > :16:27.softening on that particular police tactic? There is obviously an issue
:16:28. > :16:30.where we need to look at what is creating that spike, whether it is a
:16:31. > :16:40.spike or where there is momentum there. What Theresa May did, we've
:16:41. > :16:42.got to make sure we've got police service that is representative of
:16:43. > :16:46.its community and that we do not have a situation where stop and
:16:47. > :16:51.search can be abused. The police need to be aware and use it
:16:52. > :16:57.appropriately, and if they are aware, they should use it
:16:58. > :17:01.appropriately. It is absolutely essential that the police focused
:17:02. > :17:06.the tactic of stop and search on the minerals. In order to do that, they
:17:07. > :17:12.need the intelligence from the community. These people who are
:17:13. > :17:16.carrying knives, certainly the hard of those people, carry it around to
:17:17. > :17:20.increase their status on the streets, they use their knives, they
:17:21. > :17:26.threaten people with it, the community know who these people are,
:17:27. > :17:28.they don't have enough trust and confidence so they can
:17:29. > :17:32.confidentially pass that information on to the police so the lease can
:17:33. > :17:38.effectively target stop and search on those criminals. I was the police
:17:39. > :17:46.commander who had Brixton under my command. You had said duration is
:17:47. > :17:51.where Bob Ariz just happened and the police put out a description, an
:17:52. > :17:54.18-year-old wearing a hooding and trainers, which covered half the
:17:55. > :17:58.population of Britain at that time, we need to get far more intelligent
:17:59. > :18:02.about where, did they have an earring, did they have a nose ring,
:18:03. > :18:09.what trousers were they wearing? They might jackets but they won't
:18:10. > :18:14.swap trousers because it is too embarrassing to do it imply big --
:18:15. > :18:20.in public. What trainers did they have on? Because they want swap
:18:21. > :18:25.trainers. You have to get more intelligence about this and increase
:18:26. > :18:31.it -- it's perfect goodness. There was a move to increase them broad
:18:32. > :18:34.base of people that come into the police service and some people have
:18:35. > :18:38.talked about increasing the amount of academically trained people to
:18:39. > :18:44.become police officers and that will result, they are consulting on it at
:18:45. > :18:49.the moment, in the nation to parachuting people in without police
:18:50. > :18:54.X areas who would essentially become police constables. It is not usually
:18:55. > :19:00.popular in the police service. Just on the question of stop and search,
:19:01. > :19:05.the Labour Party supports evidence -based stop and search. If there is
:19:06. > :19:08.an evidence base for it, of course we supported. But nothing has caused
:19:09. > :19:14.more tensions between the police and the community than random,
:19:15. > :19:20.non-evidence -based stop and searches which actually didn't pick
:19:21. > :19:25.up... It picked up a relatively tiny number of infringements of the law.
:19:26. > :19:31.Evidence -based stop and search is one thing, random stop and searches
:19:32. > :19:37.another. On the issue of police recruitment, we are facing a very
:19:38. > :19:40.different world, in racing -- invitation to police and
:19:41. > :19:45.counterterrorism, and maybe we need to look again at the recruitment of
:19:46. > :19:51.police. But what I would say any steps that are taken to, for
:19:52. > :19:59.instance, bring people indirectly without having been on the beat, any
:20:00. > :20:01.steps taken should only be taken in consultation with the Police
:20:02. > :20:07.Federation and other organisations that represent the police. Published
:20:08. > :20:15.people would learn from history. We had a system decades ago which was
:20:16. > :20:20.quickly abandoned because it did not work, in terms of leadership in the
:20:21. > :20:23.police service. I have a situation when I was a chief inspector of
:20:24. > :20:28.Prisons to wait two officers had life changing injuries, they were
:20:29. > :20:34.shot by an escaped prisoner. We got a health nurse in to do a debrief
:20:35. > :20:38.with the officers, she was shouted out of the room because the officer
:20:39. > :20:43.said, you have no idea what the dangers are that we face on the
:20:44. > :20:48.street, you don't know how we feel, how can you come here and empathise
:20:49. > :20:52.with us? What is a Chief Constable who has never walked the heat, who
:20:53. > :20:57.has never X earrings to the things working in all weathers, in all
:20:58. > :21:03.hours, how was that Chief Constable going to relate to their officers?
:21:04. > :21:07.Of course, if we are getting into far more technical crimes, whether
:21:08. > :21:12.online fraud, which can be very complex, we should bring in experts
:21:13. > :21:17.to help officers to do that. But there is a complete ignoring of the
:21:18. > :21:24.police culture. There is a huge divide, even more than in industry,
:21:25. > :21:27.between workers and managers in the police service because the workers
:21:28. > :21:32.are out there facing danger in all weathers, they and night, and
:21:33. > :21:37.managers are in air-conditioned offices doing mainly nine to five.
:21:38. > :21:43.To increase their divide by bringing in people at the top who have no
:21:44. > :21:47.experience of policing at all is to ignore the very important culture in
:21:48. > :21:51.the police service. Is the concern from your department that there is
:21:52. > :22:01.not enough professionalism in policing? Where is this move coming
:22:02. > :22:05.from? The London Metropolitan Police started the scheme of police
:22:06. > :22:10.constables which has been phenomenally successful, that
:22:11. > :22:15.started from police officers in the Met police. And the Met police is
:22:16. > :22:24.one of the best organisations that has diversify it -- diversify to. At
:22:25. > :22:30.the higher levels, we have been very clear that we do want to see more
:22:31. > :22:38.professionalisation. One is around professionalisation of the police,
:22:39. > :22:45.we wanted to be sector led, which is the right way to do do it. Also, it
:22:46. > :22:48.is giving the police ability to recognise their skills and powers if
:22:49. > :22:54.they choose to leave the police later in their careers and go
:22:55. > :23:00.outside. We left at the moment in this country, you look around at
:23:01. > :23:05.certain senior officers, Ian Hopkins in Manchester being an obvious one,
:23:06. > :23:12.we've got some superb leaders around this treat, and I want the police to
:23:13. > :23:15.continue to have the best of the rest, operationally and
:23:16. > :23:22.organisationally. I think it is the right time to look at what we do as
:23:23. > :23:25.we move forward, around how we continue to move forward, to make
:23:26. > :23:33.sure it does have the best people in it, people and powered who can come
:23:34. > :23:41.into benefit the police. If you look at what the Met police have outlined
:23:42. > :23:45.this week, they make sure they do have a training programme and that
:23:46. > :23:48.they do get spray rinse of being the police of this on the street. We are
:23:49. > :24:01.looking at a big organisation, we have management issues, to do with
:24:02. > :24:05.logistics. We've just heard from Brian, first-hand experience with
:24:06. > :24:10.great insight but the kind of cultural tensions that result when
:24:11. > :24:14.you bring people into an organisation when they haven't gone
:24:15. > :24:20.through the ranks. I found it very dispiriting when the operational
:24:21. > :24:24.commander on the day of the domain is shooting, if you told me she was
:24:25. > :24:30.going to be the Met Commissioner today, I would have said there
:24:31. > :24:36.wasn't a cat in hell's chance. We had quite a few resolutions
:24:37. > :24:40.imploring the force to learn the lessons of that day, but how was it
:24:41. > :24:44.a lesson to promote someone to that degree when they were instrumental
:24:45. > :24:50.in what happened on the day in terms of an innocent person being shot in
:24:51. > :24:56.the Stockwell underground. I'm not one to defend... Diane, you are here
:24:57. > :25:01.to defend things you have said in the past but one of the things you
:25:02. > :25:05.said about institutionalised racialism, I think that holds, that
:25:06. > :25:09.is not something we can deny. We need people at the top of the police
:25:10. > :25:13.force who are already working there who need to find a pathway to
:25:14. > :25:20.promotion. We have heard that people feel they are locked because there
:25:21. > :25:24.are peaks there. We need to seem there are people on the recruitment
:25:25. > :25:30.panels who are sufficiently diverse so that we can avoid that
:25:31. > :25:36.unconscious bias. The sure, we can improve the confidence in policing.
:25:37. > :25:40.I'd do get stopped unfortunately and I think I hold an argument with
:25:41. > :25:45.police officers. I was coming through the Eurostar not so long ago
:25:46. > :25:50.and I was apprehended by six immigration officers and two police
:25:51. > :25:55.officers, would you like to see things? I said you've got no good
:25:56. > :26:03.grounds or give me good justification other than the one of
:26:04. > :26:08.racist bias to profiling, and I won three. I think all of those
:26:09. > :26:14.individuals who are less argued to able to argue their case and we've
:26:15. > :26:21.got to avoid race-based stop and search and profiling. I've really
:26:22. > :26:26.have to challenge, I'm afraid, the comments you have made about
:26:27. > :26:33.Cressida Dick. Cressida Dick, Doug policy that she had to work with
:26:34. > :26:39.which I was trained in at the time, to be a senior designated officer to
:26:40. > :26:46.ask officers to go and shoot a suicide bomber was defective. There
:26:47. > :26:54.was a whole series of areas in the course of that particular operation
:26:55. > :26:58.which... Can I come back on that. You have questioned whether or not
:26:59. > :27:05.Cressida Dick should be Commissioner of the Met and I think you are being
:27:06. > :27:09.and feta her, bearing in mind the cards that she was dealt on that
:27:10. > :27:18.day. She didn't mean stop to shoot to kill. We are a long way down the
:27:19. > :27:23.line, I'm going to have to wrap things up shortly and I will be in
:27:24. > :27:27.trouble because I didn't even get to cyber security. A very sizzling
:27:28. > :27:36.answer from you, have we dropped the ball on cyber security? Nope we'll
:27:37. > :27:40.have a duty, as individuals, organisations, to be aware of what
:27:41. > :27:44.we can do to protect ourselves. But there are literally hundreds of
:27:45. > :27:48.countries, mass organisations that were affected, but we do need to be
:27:49. > :27:53.clear, cyber crime is changing and shifting. 80% of all cyber crime can
:27:54. > :28:02.be avoided we keep our own software up-to-date. Diane. Yes, we have
:28:03. > :28:04.dropped the ball. It is one thing to talk about our individual
:28:05. > :28:09.responsibilities, it is another thing to do but the government
:28:10. > :28:15.responsibilities to institutions as big and vulnerable as the NHS. There
:28:16. > :28:20.are some evidence that there were resource restraints, why be NHS as
:28:21. > :28:27.an institution did not take the steps, did not take the steps to
:28:28. > :28:33.protect itself from the disastrous cyber crime that it begs a bit. We
:28:34. > :28:38.have seen a whole series of failed IT projects. If the equipment and
:28:39. > :28:41.the infrastructure isn't fit for purpose, it needs to be dealt with,
:28:42. > :28:45.preferably not through subcontracting but having top
:28:46. > :28:50.in-house capability that is properly financed. It will be difficult with
:28:51. > :28:58.increased Margie to keep track of it, not terms of meta data and civil
:28:59. > :29:04.libertarian concern is, but in terms of keeping track of the technologies
:29:05. > :29:08.that we do use, in terms of encryption software, if that falls
:29:09. > :29:12.into the wrong hands, if you blah leaving briefcases and trains, we
:29:13. > :29:18.need to make sure we have the mechanism to deal with that. The
:29:19. > :29:24.police service equipped to deal with such a complex issue? There is part
:29:25. > :29:31.of GCHQ that has a responsible T to ensure that people like the NHS are
:29:32. > :29:37.protected. The dilemma is the story was that the American security
:29:38. > :29:41.services saw a vulnerability in the operating software, captain to
:29:42. > :29:45.themselves because they wanted to exploit it in terms of keeping
:29:46. > :29:50.surveillance on people, and that information escaped into the public
:29:51. > :29:55.domain and that was used by criminals. Of course the security
:29:56. > :29:58.services has to be able to exploit weaknesses in operating systems but
:29:59. > :30:03.if they decide to do that, they should also develop an antidote, if
:30:04. > :30:08.you like to that folder ability so that if it into the wrong hands,
:30:09. > :30:12.they need to patch that problem. And that will allow the security
:30:13. > :30:18.services have reached they need in order to combat terrorism and it
:30:19. > :30:26.keeps our public infrastructure, the NHS, safe from cyber attack. That is
:30:27. > :30:31.all we have got time for. Thank you to all the panellists.