:00:16. > :00:19.Tonight we are live in Northern Ireland where the general election
:00:20. > :00:24.campaign has been dominated by the impending split from the European
:00:25. > :00:27.Union which is hardening old sectarian rivalries. Does anyone
:00:28. > :00:32.want to change this? This is the border. You are now in the Republic
:00:33. > :00:36.and I am in Northern Ireland or the UK or whatever you like to call it.
:00:37. > :00:39.We will be debating Northern Ireland's future with senior figures
:00:40. > :00:54.from the main political parties. Good evening from Belfast. The
:00:55. > :00:57.general election has come at a time the Northern Ireland where it is
:00:58. > :01:01.loaded with jeopardy. The political scene isn't tied if it from anywhere
:01:02. > :01:07.else in the UK. Right now, devolution, store Montt, is
:01:08. > :01:12.suspended after a bust up and may not return any time soon. That in
:01:13. > :01:15.turn has huge implications for Northern Ireland's voice in the
:01:16. > :01:23.Brexit negotiations and the role of the 18 Westminster MPs from Northern
:01:24. > :01:26.Ireland to be elected. The border is the big issue after Brexit, here
:01:27. > :01:30.they voted to remain, Northern Ireland would be the only land
:01:31. > :01:34.frontier with the EU. There are few people who would believe a hard
:01:35. > :01:38.border would be anything other than disastrous. The EU chief negotiator
:01:39. > :01:42.has said categorically that the border issue was one of three
:01:43. > :01:47.priorities to be resolved before Britain can negotiate a trade deal.
:01:48. > :01:52.Something disputed at the weekend by Brexit secretary David Davis.
:01:53. > :02:05.Sinn Fein have used Brexit to ramp up the call for unionisation. VDU
:02:06. > :02:11.pin said that at border poll would destabilise Northern Ireland when
:02:12. > :02:17.stability is needed. -- VDU P said that a board that told. Before we
:02:18. > :02:22.debate the issues with the main political parties here the BBC's
:02:23. > :02:25.Allen correspondence explores the key issue at play in the election
:02:26. > :02:33.against a divide that seems to be re-asserting itself. Invisible lines
:02:34. > :02:40.in this land will soon mark where one union ends and another begins.
:02:41. > :02:51.This will be the edge of both the EU and the UK. Davy Crockett is a
:02:52. > :02:54.descendant of his namesake the famous American frontiersman. His
:02:55. > :03:01.farm which straddles the Irish border on the outskirts of
:03:02. > :03:06.Londonderry. It makes him the king of a new frontier, the one with
:03:07. > :03:10.Europe. This is the border, you are in the Republic and I am in Northern
:03:11. > :03:17.Ireland or the UK or whatever you like to call it. I could shake hands
:03:18. > :03:22.with you here, across the divide. LAUGHTER But, if this border was to
:03:23. > :03:26.go sometime in the future the EU has made clear that Northern Ireland
:03:27. > :03:30.could be part of the union, again. You think that being part of the
:03:31. > :03:35.European Union would be an incentive for people to vote to go for a
:03:36. > :03:40.united Ireland? No. Agriculture would be better in Europe but the
:03:41. > :03:45.vast majority of the people they would be afraid of losing what they
:03:46. > :03:49.would get from the British taxpayer not Europe. But Republicans believe
:03:50. > :03:54.Brexit could strengthen the case and support for the ultimate aim, united
:03:55. > :03:58.Ireland. It is only three months since the last vote here, a bitter
:03:59. > :04:02.assembly election that left the party is deeply divided and Stormont
:04:03. > :04:07.without a government and Sinn Fein say they will not go back into power
:04:08. > :04:13.with unionists are less of their demands are met, including
:04:14. > :04:16.legislation. Legislation that would give official status to the Irish
:04:17. > :04:22.language. If you feed a crocodile there will come back and look for
:04:23. > :04:27.more. That was the Democratic Unionist respondents were calls for
:04:28. > :04:32.an Irish language act. This helps Sinn Fein to its best election
:04:33. > :04:37.result ever something they celebrated in crocodile costumes.
:04:38. > :04:41.But, Arlene Foster now appears to be trying to reach out even speaking
:04:42. > :04:45.Irish when she visited this Catholics poor. -- this Catholics
:04:46. > :04:58.all. Irish is the first language of just
:04:59. > :05:04.a quarter of 1% of the population, here., but it is important to the
:05:05. > :05:09.students. The temporary P leader met... Whether you see yourself as
:05:10. > :05:13.Irish, Northern Irish or British, Irish is that everyone. But you feel
:05:14. > :05:19.more Irish than Northern Ireland is? Yes. Does anyone feel Northern
:05:20. > :05:25.Irish? That the silence might be telling. Reinforcing an Irish
:05:26. > :05:31.identity is important in Sinn Fein's push for a border poll, a referendum
:05:32. > :05:35.vote on Irish unity. It is the heart, the Passion the love of the
:05:36. > :05:39.Irish language and culture, and the hope for the unification of Ireland
:05:40. > :05:44.but I do not know if this is the temperate, or not. The piece was
:05:45. > :05:51.that about much of Belfast mark out what seen as Catholic nationalist
:05:52. > :05:57.areas and Protestant unionists areas. Wendy's think the number of
:05:58. > :06:05.Catholics will outnumber the number of Protestants? May be ten or 20
:06:06. > :06:10.years. -- when do you think. If the danger overplaying the number of
:06:11. > :06:13.Catholics actually supporting a united Ireland? The census figures
:06:14. > :06:18.might ever play that and here I'm calling to mind evidence I remember
:06:19. > :06:22.seeing from a public survey, where I saw evidence that a quarter of Sinn
:06:23. > :06:30.Fein voters would vote for a united Ireland just then. Years of peace
:06:31. > :06:33.have changed places like Belfast and that is not just about investment,
:06:34. > :06:38.many accept that the clash of cultures here is part of that
:06:39. > :06:45.identity, one in five said they see themselves as Northern Ireland
:06:46. > :06:48.should. But, Tina McKenzie he was part of a now-defunct cross
:06:49. > :06:53.community party says that the last election shows boaters are motivated
:06:54. > :06:59.by conflict not compromise. We had the biggest turnout since the Good
:07:00. > :07:04.Friday Agreement. I think that is a huge show because people actually
:07:05. > :07:10.help threaten. There was a call from Unionists to say, we might get a
:07:11. > :07:15.nationalist majority, and it pulls at the strings of people's core
:07:16. > :07:19.identity. Modern politics in Northern Ireland is still something
:07:20. > :07:22.of a prisoner to history. That is not surprising when you consider
:07:23. > :07:31.that many voters lived through years of horrendous violence.
:07:32. > :07:47.My wife and I were there. I was going in and out of consciousness.
:07:48. > :07:54.This man was seriously injured in this bombing. My school was smashed
:07:55. > :08:02.like an egg shell and slipped from here up to here. -- my school. And
:08:03. > :08:06.my jaw was missing on that side. The IRA attack on a remembrance service
:08:07. > :08:17.at that time 30 years ago is an event that is impossible to forget.
:08:18. > :08:22.People today talk garbage about these people have changed, the only
:08:23. > :08:28.change to get to where they are going and to get control. What do
:08:29. > :08:36.these terrorists want? They say they want a united Ireland. If they
:08:37. > :08:41.hadn't have... They would have a united Ireland 30 years ago. Killing
:08:42. > :08:45.people does not unite people. How people see an want that troubled
:08:46. > :08:52.past re-remembered is something that divides communities. Legacy and
:08:53. > :08:56.issues of identity divide people here. Unionists are appealing to the
:08:57. > :09:01.core based and nationalists to theirs. All adding to many reasons
:09:02. > :09:21.why there was no strong government. At election time nationalists and
:09:22. > :09:25.unionists often seem to be speaking a different language, but away from
:09:26. > :09:30.the heat that battle for votes they need to find ways of understanding
:09:31. > :09:33.each other otherwise the past will continue to hold future generations,
:09:34. > :09:44.be they British, Irish or Northern Ireland should. -- or Northern
:09:45. > :09:48.Irish. STUDIO
:09:49. > :09:54.I joined now by Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd, Jeffrey from the temporary
:09:55. > :10:01.P, someone from the Alliance party, Claire Hanna funny SDLP and the,
:10:02. > :10:06.Steve Aiken. Festival, the implication of Brexit being at the
:10:07. > :10:10.heart of this election is that reinforcement of the divide. The DUP
:10:11. > :10:15.with the anybody debate the Brexit. That is true, but 45% of the people
:10:16. > :10:21.of Northern Ireland also voted the Brexit. We get 30%. -- we get 30%
:10:22. > :10:28.normally in an election. We are fishing in a big pond. I fish it
:10:29. > :10:34.volley sense it when -- I sense it when I am canvassing. I think people
:10:35. > :10:38.are voting DUP to see Brexit delivered. Sinn Fein used the
:10:39. > :10:41.spectre of Brexit to push the unification for the figures do not
:10:42. > :10:46.add up because a post Brexit opinion polls that that only 22% support a
:10:47. > :10:51.united Ireland, are you rowing back from the idea of having a referendum
:10:52. > :10:53.on a unification? Brexit is the biggest constitutional change on the
:10:54. > :11:08.talent of Alli since... A year before the Scottish
:11:09. > :11:13.independence referendum had similar poll... Bring on the referendum with
:11:14. > :11:20.regards to Irish union ship. She really believe, that there is any
:11:21. > :11:23.appetite for a vote and unification just now. I think Brexit has
:11:24. > :11:32.undoubtedly plus BOOING Put it on of the challenges remain about
:11:33. > :11:37.reconciliation and breakfast shed is any think it is the division and the
:11:38. > :11:42.damage of a massive constitutional question ball down to a binary yes
:11:43. > :11:48.or no question. How divisive it was even in the UK. We think, while we
:11:49. > :11:52.deal with the massive challenge, economic, political shocks of
:11:53. > :11:58.Brexit, polarising it through green and orange lenses that the most
:11:59. > :12:09.constructive. It's not the time? The EU P voted for humane --
:12:10. > :12:14.you are pushing the special designated status than Northern
:12:15. > :12:19.Ireland, what if that? What we want is the best deal for Northern Allen
:12:20. > :12:23.going forward, we want to have Northern Ireland not being penalised
:12:24. > :12:28.by Brexit, but looking at the opportunity. What would it look
:12:29. > :12:31.like? We keep on talking about the issues around borders, we shouldn't
:12:32. > :12:37.have any borders across these Allen is a tall, we shouldn't have hard
:12:38. > :12:42.borders we should have free movement. -- we should not have any
:12:43. > :12:46.borders across these Allens at all. We need to maintain the flow of the
:12:47. > :12:53.billion euros a week going back and forth. How would that work, bringing
:12:54. > :12:57.in the Alliance party here, you are a cross community party, how was
:12:58. > :13:01.something that Steve Aiken is talking about, no restrictions
:13:02. > :13:05.whatsoever, that is not then happen if you are outside of the customs
:13:06. > :13:08.union. That is one of the Bill concerns of this because despite the
:13:09. > :13:12.fact that the country is quite divided over Brexit with both
:13:13. > :13:16.Scotland and Northern Ireland with it, we have a government that is
:13:17. > :13:20.hurtling towards the hardest of Brexit 's, what we would expect from
:13:21. > :13:24.a government that government that argues that it's feared with the
:13:25. > :13:33.union with Derry would be to moderate Brexit. -- that fears to
:13:34. > :13:37.unification. We feel we need to protect the freedom of movement not
:13:38. > :13:39.the only because it is important economically and socially but
:13:40. > :13:43.politically in Northern Ireland and is part of the expectation that
:13:44. > :13:49.blows from the Good Friday Agreement. Do you really leave that
:13:50. > :13:54.there should be noticed fictions anywhere? It is impossible. We're
:13:55. > :13:59.talking about two separate economic unit, being enforced on the people
:14:00. > :14:08.of the island of Alli. We are saying allowed the North to remain in the
:14:09. > :14:11.EU, when we are coming together to economic units pushed against each
:14:12. > :14:15.other against the will of the people there will be barriers in place.
:14:16. > :14:22.Just say, we'll bring you all back into the light as soon as possible.
:14:23. > :14:28.I metaphor here! LAUGHTER Coming back you, nail me,
:14:29. > :14:31.how do you squeeze your way through here you are in polarising
:14:32. > :14:36.positions, you will drop down a hole in the middle. Not at all because in
:14:37. > :14:40.the last election we polled our best based in the last few years. When
:14:41. > :14:47.politics polarises it motivates others that think that Brexit cannot
:14:48. > :14:52.be seen through an Orange or green lens, it affects those on the union
:14:53. > :14:56.and nationalists I'd and those who do not find themselves in those
:14:57. > :15:03.times. We need a deal for Northern Ireland as good for the UK. Going
:15:04. > :15:07.back on the special status, those of us that campaign from remain at how
:15:08. > :15:10.you could marry up the hard Brexitiers talking about protect our
:15:11. > :15:15.borders with the free moment that we need and enjoy. We still have not
:15:16. > :15:19.had the answer but special designated status is not just
:15:20. > :15:23.necessary but inevitable. We will have to be treated differently
:15:24. > :15:27.because the specifics circumstances here. The EU understands Northern
:15:28. > :15:31.Ireland better than London doors. She believed there will have to be
:15:32. > :15:35.special designated status even know you booted the Brexit and come what
:15:36. > :15:39.may that is what you wanted. The idea that Brussels knows Northern
:15:40. > :15:42.Ireland better than London is nonsense. Let's knock that on the
:15:43. > :15:49.head, London notes this place very well it owns this place. And has
:15:50. > :15:55.dumped the many, many years. The idea of a united Ireland being
:15:56. > :15:59.economically viable is unsustainable. -- and has done for
:16:00. > :16:08.many years. No one around this table is arguing the high BOOING Hard
:16:09. > :16:17.the own INAUDIBLE It is like the old days Sinn Fein
:16:18. > :16:22.talk about a united Ireland and blow up the Belfast - Dublin railway.
:16:23. > :16:26.What it you expect to happen that you would bode per Brexit and
:16:27. > :16:30.everything would be fine and no be free movement of people and
:16:31. > :16:35.everything would be fine? We have the Common Travel Area on this
:16:36. > :16:42.island long before the EU Fx system. But we also had common immigration
:16:43. > :16:47.policies, common custom policies. We can work them through pragmatically.
:16:48. > :16:52.I do not think the Dublin or Belfast wants a hard border. But Belfast
:16:53. > :16:55.needs a government. We need have Stallman functioning so we can take
:16:56. > :17:01.the decisions but the people that electors so that we can get a
:17:02. > :17:07.special deal that you talking about. We are going to talk about Stormont.
:17:08. > :17:13.Do you believe with our pit that you would have a lesser boys in
:17:14. > :17:19.negotiations? The voice I'm interested in in the relation to the
:17:20. > :17:28.Brexit debate is the voice of the constitutional reset council which
:17:29. > :17:35.paid the DUP a lot of money to fund ... Wedded that money come from? It
:17:36. > :17:38.was a UK referendum that you did not take part in. The lowest turnout in
:17:39. > :17:44.Northern Ireland was in West Belfast. What we want to do... Let's
:17:45. > :18:00.not distract. We want to know what the border will
:18:01. > :18:05.look like. Do you agree that without resolution on the border, there
:18:06. > :18:08.cannot be a trade deal? We are right at the beginning of the
:18:09. > :18:16.negotiations, there are all sorts of things to be negotiated. Let's talk
:18:17. > :18:19.about some of the wider issues. I was down in Dublin yesterday
:18:20. > :18:25.listening to discussions about the Norway and Sweden border. Looking at
:18:26. > :18:30.the French- Swiss model. There are alternatives making this happen, the
:18:31. > :18:34.UK has been a trading nation for over 1000 years, we can make it
:18:35. > :18:39.work. The problem is not going to be on the UK side of it. It will be
:18:40. > :18:43.that border posts will be imposed by the EU in the Republic of Ireland.
:18:44. > :18:54.The Republic of Ireland doesn't want that. They want to make it work with
:18:55. > :18:56.the UK and we can make it work. Steve's MEP colleague were saying
:18:57. > :19:00.this week that Dublin should keep its nose out of Northern Ireland's
:19:01. > :19:04.business and nappy is arguing that London and Dublin should be working
:19:05. > :19:09.together to get the best possible border. If you have a customs
:19:10. > :19:13.differentiation and customs duty. You will have to have some measure
:19:14. > :19:17.of taking care of that at the border. That may not result in the
:19:18. > :19:21.kind of borders we had in the 1970s which were there for security
:19:22. > :19:25.reasons but no one has been able to take us to a location where there is
:19:26. > :19:29.a border between Europe and another nation and show us the seamless
:19:30. > :19:36.border we expect. It is right we should be concerned about that.
:19:37. > :19:40.There is talk of a different kind of border, essentially a land border of
:19:41. > :19:46.airports and ports. Is that impossible? Nothing is impossible in
:19:47. > :19:57.this day and age. We have modern electronic surveillance. We already
:19:58. > :20:01.have arrangements between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland
:20:02. > :20:06.where there is a massive sharing of information. Every single day.
:20:07. > :20:12.People who come into Dublin, that information is fed through to
:20:13. > :20:17.London. Do you fear the spectre of that hard and horrible border?
:20:18. > :20:21.Absolutely. Not just the economy would be crippled by that but the
:20:22. > :20:25.intangible benefits that came with peace and free movement and
:20:26. > :20:35.unimpeded access to the rest of the island. The ticket for nationalists
:20:36. > :20:41.and the economy as well. As you have outlined, -- particularly for
:20:42. > :20:51.nationalists. Would a hard Brexit lead to a hard border? The key
:20:52. > :20:56.question has to be, it is about agricultural business, it is not to
:20:57. > :21:05.do with tariffs but regulation. Those are the important things we
:21:06. > :21:11.need to get sorted out. If you have cross-border businesses, one economy
:21:12. > :21:14.and two countries, a third of your milk production from Northern
:21:15. > :21:19.Ireland existing in the Republic, is that a problem or not? Of course it
:21:20. > :21:28.is a problem. We are missing the point, it is an economic border
:21:29. > :21:31.which currently doesn't exist. The businesses that don't have to pay
:21:32. > :21:44.tariffs are now going to have to pay those. How do you know that? The
:21:45. > :21:48.negotiations haven't begun. We know what the current situation is. The
:21:49. > :21:53.GU P let us down a path with their dark money and of thing else towards
:21:54. > :21:56.a Brexit but they couldn't ask -- answer those questions before
:21:57. > :22:04.Brexit. We are leaving the customs union. There is a ferocious and mud
:22:05. > :22:08.of detail but we have no executive and no government, these two parties
:22:09. > :22:15.collapsed it without any strategy in place. So nobody is currently
:22:16. > :22:20.shouting for Northern Ireland. Let us talk about Northern Ireland's
:22:21. > :22:25.influence in the negotiations. John O'Dowd, if there is no Stormont, a
:22:26. > :22:29.vote for Sinn Fein is surely totally useless when you don't take your
:22:30. > :22:38.seats at Westminster and you have no way to influence Brexit. We are
:22:39. > :22:43.proud Irish republicans, we will not swear allegiance to the Queen of
:22:44. > :22:54.England. I am not taking an oath of allegiance, always been our
:22:55. > :22:58.position. What I am saying about that in this situation is if you
:22:59. > :23:03.don't have a voice at Westminster and you don't have a voice at store
:23:04. > :23:11.-- a voice at Stormont, where is your influence? Won our voice is
:23:12. > :23:18.heard loud and clear across Ireland and in London. I sat with the Welsh
:23:19. > :23:22.executive and the Scottish executive and the British government when we
:23:23. > :23:26.had an executive and not only were our views ignored but the views of
:23:27. > :23:31.the Welsh and Scottish secretaries were ignored as well. Which vote you
:23:32. > :23:43.overturned in Westminster in relation to Brexit? They've added
:23:44. > :23:51.themselves to represent their people. BST P position, that you
:23:52. > :23:58.think Sinn Fein is letting down the people of Ireland... You'll grow
:23:59. > :24:03.because they are making us all at station lists from Stormont at the
:24:04. > :24:09.moment. The SDLP have turned over every stone on Brexit. We have had
:24:10. > :24:20.five years or press releases from Sinn Fein. So do you think Stormont
:24:21. > :24:26.is useless then. I am asking which Brexit wrote did they overturn? He
:24:27. > :24:34.wants us to believe that three MPs can have no impact in the 650 MPs
:24:35. > :24:41.but your four -- your four MEPs contains the world. Do you say a
:24:42. > :24:46.plague on both your houses, do you pay and Sinn Fein for not sorting
:24:47. > :24:57.out this business. -- DQ P and Sinn Fein. You are looking at direct rule
:24:58. > :25:00.again. That is the worst thing that could happen in the context of
:25:01. > :25:03.Northern Ireland. If John believes that the current government is
:25:04. > :25:08.insensitive to Northern Ireland's needs, then what better way to place
:25:09. > :25:13.a buffer between the people he represents and the government in
:25:14. > :25:16.London than to have devolution operational? I spent five years in
:25:17. > :25:21.Westminster and it is quite possible to change people's minds through
:25:22. > :25:25.persuasion and argument and a voting. I changed the law as a
:25:26. > :25:28.single member of Parliament. No you can't do that by walking around
:25:29. > :25:33.talking to people at Westminster and hiring rooms and by sending out
:25:34. > :25:40.press releases but you can do it if you turn up and work with others. I
:25:41. > :25:52.changed a law about donations. One law in five years. And I influenced
:25:53. > :25:56.change on others. The UUP position on the return of Stormont. We
:25:57. > :26:01.definitely want it back up and running. In the talks that were
:26:02. > :26:05.going before, we would getting fairly close to consensus of all the
:26:06. > :26:10.parties together on Brexit. We were working very closely, John, you were
:26:11. > :26:14.there, Claire, Naomi, we were getting close to actually having a
:26:15. > :26:18.document and a policy we could take forward. We need to get the Northern
:26:19. > :26:23.Ireland assembly backed up and running as soon as the election is
:26:24. > :26:27.out of the way and get the executive up and running. Do you think the
:26:28. > :26:32.glory days of Stormont might be over? Because when you had Martin
:26:33. > :26:36.McGuinness and Ian Paisley, who could command their communities, it
:26:37. > :26:45.was a completely different matter and it worked. But without them,
:26:46. > :26:53.none of you here has the power to reinstate double properly. I don't
:26:54. > :26:57.agree with that at all. Four of the parties represented her are ready to
:26:58. > :27:00.get Stormont up and running, there is any one party not to go into
:27:01. > :27:08.government and they are holding the whole of Northern Ireland to ransom
:27:09. > :27:12.and that party is Sinn Fein. Let me be clear, the GU P has no
:27:13. > :27:27.preconditions for going back into government. -- DQ P. By refusing to
:27:28. > :27:34.make the progress required. We have no preconditions. Sinn Fein are
:27:35. > :27:38.blocking that. Are we entering a period of instability in Northern
:27:39. > :27:42.Ireland? Won I desperately hope we are not. We need strong voices in
:27:43. > :27:46.West Minster making the case but it doesn't need to be that way, we have
:27:47. > :27:50.sold bigger problems with this with the right attitude. I would like to
:27:51. > :27:51.apologise for the slightly strange lighting throughout this debate,
:27:52. > :28:20.thanks to you. What engagements does she have
:28:21. > :28:23.planned for the rest of the day? Gil I have engagements to take the
:28:24. > :28:26.programme the Scotland and I will take part in the ITV leaders debate
:28:27. > :28:36.which of course, Theresa May is docking. Ruth Davidson. We don't
:28:37. > :28:40.have enough teachers in Scotland. Given the fact that all sides accept
:28:41. > :28:44.this, does the First Minister agree with me that when young people here
:28:45. > :28:46.choose teaching as a career, we should do everything we can to
:28:47. > :28:47.ensure they