:00:09. > :00:19.This is Free Speech. Your chance to have your say about what matters to
:00:19. > :00:46.
:00:46. > :00:50.There's a lot going on. Good evening, welcome to Free Speech.
:00:50. > :00:53.It's our first show of 2013 and a first for me, Rick Edwards. I'm
:00:53. > :01:03.very happy to be here. And tonight, 'here' is the Brangwyn Hall, in
:01:03. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:08.Or one of the friendliest cities in the UK. And another regular face on
:01:08. > :01:12.Free Speech from now on - reading all your social media messages,
:01:12. > :01:15.it's Tina Daheley.Yes - I want to hear what you've got to say.
:01:15. > :01:25.laptops, tablets and phones at the ready - get online now with the BBC,
:01:25. > :01:28.Facebook or Twitter. Here are the It's time for you to be part of the
:01:28. > :01:33.debate on Free Speech. And that's not all - this is the only TV show
:01:33. > :01:36.with the Power Bar. It responds in real time to what you think of the
:01:36. > :01:42.panel, via Twitter. So just use hash tag "Yes" or hash tag "No"
:01:42. > :01:45.followed by the first name of one And here is our panel. First, the
:01:45. > :01:47.businesswoman who brought us Peachy Pink underwear and won herself
:01:47. > :01:57.Britain's Best Female Asian Entrepreneur along the way. She's
:01:57. > :01:58.She's a Welsh Assembly Minister and the leader of Plaid Cmyru. She's
:01:58. > :02:08.socialist, republican, environmentalist, anti-racist,
:02:08. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:13.feminist - I think you're going to Not the typical CV for a
:02:13. > :02:16.Conservative MP - he was Rick Astley's guitarist, wrote songs for
:02:16. > :02:26.Jason Donovan and owns a string of hairdressing salons. He's David
:02:26. > :02:28.
:02:28. > :02:38.And finally, she's a journalist, she's co-author of Generation Vexed
:02:38. > :02:39.
:02:39. > :02:43.- so she knows just how you feel - Right, let's get started. My first
:02:44. > :02:46.debate - and it's a big one. Call them shirkers, call them strivers -
:02:46. > :02:49.whatever you call them, there are more than one million young people
:02:49. > :02:52.looking for work, and over a quarter of those have been
:02:52. > :02:54.unemployed for over a year. While, overall, unemployment figures are
:02:54. > :02:58.improving, long term youth unemployment figures continue to
:02:58. > :03:02.cause concern. Here in Wales, the numbers have almost tripled since
:03:02. > :03:12.2010. So meet Sam and Caitlin who are finding their own solutions to
:03:12. > :03:14.
:03:14. > :03:20.All there is in the valleys in sheep, mountains and not many
:03:20. > :03:27.opportunities. Since I left school, I had a bricklayer apprenticeship,
:03:27. > :03:32.Engineering, welding, security. I have several GCSEs, or a BTEC in
:03:32. > :03:41.interactive media. But I haven't been able to find a job even though
:03:41. > :03:50.I left university in May. finished score on the Friday, I
:03:50. > :03:57.went to the pit on Monday, I asked for a job under started on Tuesday.
:03:57. > :04:04.It is all closed now. I have applied for more than 200 jobs. Out
:04:04. > :04:10.of all that, I only had two interviews. They have a grant that
:04:10. > :04:16.they can give each person that joins, the money I am planning to
:04:16. > :04:21.use as a money incentive to give to employers to hire me. I was
:04:21. > :04:27.wondering if you have any jobs going? A three years ago I signed
:04:27. > :04:33.up with a government scheme, that is how I got my security licence.
:04:33. > :04:38.Friday and Saturday are work in Bristol as a door supervisor.
:04:38. > :04:45.Hopefully in Doak future I see myself having a stable Coria, if I
:04:45. > :04:53.wanted badly, I will have to make sacrifices. What do you want to
:04:53. > :04:56.Oscar the panel? Is a David? As you will see, I have done everything to
:04:56. > :05:04.find work. But people in the government label the unemployed
:05:04. > :05:09.shirkers. Is that the truth? are not a shirker at all. What we
:05:09. > :05:13.are trying to do is get people off the dole queues and into work. You
:05:13. > :05:18.have probably seen recently, the court case that because yesterday
:05:18. > :05:22.where a young lady said she was enforced into slavery at Poundland.
:05:23. > :05:27.At the end of the Daily if you are going to be looking for work, you
:05:27. > :05:31.are claiming benefits, we try and get you into some kind of mode of
:05:31. > :05:37.working. There is nothing wrong in that because if you sit back and
:05:37. > :05:43.you vegetate, this is exactly what you're going to do. I have been
:05:43. > :05:48.employed -- unemployed three times, I went on a scheme which is enacted
:05:48. > :05:57.now, it has been very successful. Unemployment is coming down, and
:05:57. > :06:00.what can I say? You make your own luck in this world. I did myself.
:06:01. > :06:06.You were looking on with interest, do you think you make your own
:06:06. > :06:10.luck? I think it is he's used to blame unemployed people to beat --
:06:10. > :06:14.for being unemployed. High levels of unemployment are in certain
:06:14. > :06:20.places and there are low levels of unemployment elsewhere. So in the
:06:20. > :06:27.central valleys, it is around 28% of homes that have nobody working
:06:27. > :06:32.with them at all. In Swansea, it is about 68%. Yet in Oxfordshire, the
:06:32. > :06:38.figures are around 8%. So there is a difference in terms of where you
:06:38. > :06:42.live. My party, Plaid Cymru, has argued strongly in the National
:06:42. > :06:47.Assembly for Wales, for the government at Welsh level and you
:06:48. > :06:53.can level to prioritise jobs and unemployment because we cannot
:06:53. > :07:03.afford to lose an entire generation like we did in the 1980s after the
:07:03. > :07:06.
:07:06. > :07:10.What do you make of those opinions? I am biased, but I totally agree
:07:10. > :07:15.with Lehane. In the 1980s, the coal industry, everything closed down
:07:15. > :07:21.because of Maggie Thatcher. But South Wales was the world's biggest
:07:21. > :07:26.coal export at the time. And they still have 30 years' worth of coal
:07:26. > :07:35.left in them, if they were still open, I don't know if they would be
:07:35. > :07:39.more jobs, but debris be stringing of more skills and apprenticeships.
:07:39. > :07:45.I would say we need to think in the future about clean, green
:07:45. > :07:51.industries, not thinking about Cole, because in the future we need to
:07:51. > :07:54.make sure people have the skills to do the renewable technology.
:07:55. > :08:01.Another pool I would like to make on that is the assembly in Wales
:08:01. > :08:09.doesn't have the resources it, we could have a stronger economy and
:08:09. > :08:19.more people in work if the National Assembly had powers over energy.
:08:19. > :08:23.Do you feel you do can make your own luck? Have you been to the
:08:23. > :08:28.valleys? I am from a town very similar to you, I left school at 16,
:08:28. > :08:32.I became a hairdresser's apprentice, within three years I was working
:08:32. > :08:39.for an international company. The government can help you but it is
:08:39. > :08:42.up to yourself to help yourself. There are not many apprenticeships
:08:42. > :08:47.out there these days because everything is being shipped
:08:47. > :08:50.overseas. There was a factory in the South Wales area, they have
:08:50. > :08:55.loads of jobs, they could have offered apprenticeships but they
:08:55. > :09:01.should be tough to China. It is the same, there is a Ford factory down
:09:01. > :09:10.here, it is closed off because it has gone overseas. I used to work
:09:10. > :09:17.as a security guard and they shut half of that down. Shazia Awan, you
:09:17. > :09:19.are an entrepreneur, how did you go about making your own luck? I don't
:09:19. > :09:23.think there is such a thing as making your own luck because the
:09:23. > :09:29.situation that young people across Wales and the UK are facing at the
:09:29. > :09:34.moment is absolutely appalling. We have had the highest increase in
:09:34. > :09:39.long-term youth unemployment than any other country in the G8 and we
:09:39. > :09:45.haven't weathered the crisis well. But I do think that if you work
:09:45. > :09:50.hard and if you are positive in your outlook, then you can do
:09:50. > :09:55.anything, whatever you said your mind to. The Prince's Trust delight
:09:55. > :10:01.of great work, there was a survey out that they did, 71% of young
:10:01. > :10:04.people say that his course they're not taught anything about
:10:04. > :10:07.entrepreneurship -- in schools. Britain is great because of the
:10:07. > :10:12.many industries we have had over the years and it is a failing of
:10:12. > :10:16.the education system that we are not teaching entrepreneurship, and
:10:16. > :10:22.businesses in schools. That is what we should be doing, businesses are
:10:22. > :10:28.the lifeblood of the economy, not the government. So we need to be
:10:28. > :10:32.looking at educating in schools about how to get into business.
:10:32. > :10:36.many young people would set up businesses if they had the
:10:36. > :10:39.opportunity. I'm originally from Caerphilly, there are lots of
:10:39. > :10:49.communities where it is a problem, the parents and grandparents are
:10:49. > :10:49.
:10:50. > :10:59.unemployed. What are people saying online? It is getting heated on
:11:00. > :11:11.
:11:11. > :11:17.Who thinks that kids are lazy? I'm going to come to you. I did put my
:11:17. > :11:21.hand up, then you changed the question! The issue is not that
:11:21. > :11:26.there are jobs out there, but there are people going for the same jobs.
:11:26. > :11:32.The question becomes how do young people go and get the jobs that are
:11:32. > :11:36.out there. It is about becoming more employable, getting on back-
:11:36. > :11:43.to-work schemes, the jobs are not going to come to you, you have to
:11:43. > :11:48.make yourself employable. There was a Tesco in Cardiff that advertised
:11:48. > :11:54.100 jobs and got 2000 applications, that is an open question, how do
:11:54. > :12:00.you make yourself stand out? think some people could get into
:12:01. > :12:08.voluntary work if they want... Me personally, I have been doing
:12:08. > :12:14.voluntary work, it has helped me. So some people should get pushed
:12:14. > :12:20.more, especially in schools. think they should be getting pushed,
:12:20. > :12:26.doing apprenticeships, would do you think, Kieran Yates? Do you think
:12:26. > :12:31.we had demonising young people as shirkers? Yes, I think it is an
:12:31. > :12:37.easy way out to label people as shirkers. The only thing that
:12:37. > :12:42.retreat service to do it is it turns society against each other,
:12:42. > :12:46.and it is untrue. What we have seen is there is a future generation of
:12:46. > :12:50.young people with a willingness to work, it is all well and good to
:12:50. > :13:00.say you only have to work hard and you make your own luck or
:13:00. > :13:00.
:13:00. > :13:06.whatever... I don't think it is true that people don't want to work.
:13:06. > :13:10.But there is an element of laziness as well. Benefits are not great,
:13:10. > :13:14.anyone who has experienced at first hand, it is not a fantastic
:13:14. > :13:19.lifestyle of people sitting around as ladies of leisure. That is not
:13:19. > :13:25.what being on benefit is like in reality. The way in which the
:13:25. > :13:28.coalition has tried to combat this, with schemes like workfare, the
:13:28. > :13:34.youth contract, is in centre biting businesses to take on young people
:13:34. > :13:44.by giving them money -- incentive rising. Or by forcing them people
:13:44. > :13:48.
:13:48. > :13:56.to work for free, and these are not And let the audience at home speak
:13:56. > :14:02.now. Instant judgment time. Are you ready? Let's find out what the
:14:02. > :14:12.viewers at home think of what you have said so far. Let's fire up the
:14:12. > :14:16.
:14:16. > :14:21.I would like to talk to someone who has been unemployed for five months.
:14:21. > :14:25.Lisa, what is your experience of the job-seeking process? I have
:14:25. > :14:30.been in work many times and they have been tempered jobs and at the
:14:30. > :14:36.end of the contract, I am looking for another job -- temporary jobs.
:14:36. > :14:41.It is harder now. The other day I got a rejection letter saying they
:14:41. > :14:46.had over 150 other applications. I have got the skills, I have been to
:14:46. > :14:53.university and yet I still cannot get work. What is the answer and
:14:53. > :15:00.then? How do we stand out? And I want to answer this by posing a
:15:00. > :15:04.question to Leanne. Most jobs that are available off for skilled
:15:04. > :15:10.tradesmen and the Welsh assembly given any will grant to students to
:15:10. > :15:15.go to university, world nationals. With one-fifth of graduates unable
:15:15. > :15:19.to find work, would you agree that taxpayers' money would be better
:15:19. > :15:24.spent on apprenticeship schemes rather than bribing people to go to
:15:24. > :15:28.university? You need to do both. There needs to be enough money to
:15:29. > :15:34.support young people into higher education if that is what they want
:15:34. > :15:38.but it is also important to support people in the vocational route, and
:15:38. > :15:42.my party recently did a deal with the government in Wales to
:15:42. > :15:47.guarantee �20 million a year for two years for additional
:15:47. > :15:53.apprenticeships, and I am very keen to ensure that they are enabling
:15:53. > :15:57.people to get skills in fields like engineering so we can consider how
:15:57. > :16:01.we can create a manufacturing base to the economy again rather than
:16:01. > :16:05.focus on things like financial services, which have got us into
:16:05. > :16:11.the mess we are in now. We have mentioned apprenticeships a few
:16:11. > :16:17.times now. I would like to speak to Beckett, a nursing apprentice. Do
:16:17. > :16:22.you think you will get a job? really enjoying it so far. There is
:16:22. > :16:27.the problem at the end, am I going to be employed? That is a problem
:16:27. > :16:32.that I am concerned about. So in spite of doing an apprenticeship,
:16:32. > :16:42.you feel it might lead to nothing? Hopefully not but we were see what
:16:42. > :16:42.
:16:43. > :16:48.happens. Jade. You decided not to go to university. What did you do
:16:48. > :16:51.instead? I went to the Welsh entrepreneur Academy, it gives you
:16:51. > :16:58.the knowledge to set up your own business and it gives you a sponsor
:16:58. > :17:04.who sponsors the �1,000 and guides you along the way as a mentor.
:17:04. > :17:08.have found it a positive experience? Definitely. Shazia?
:17:08. > :17:14.That is fantastic. Once we give young people the skills to set up
:17:14. > :17:18.their own business, they are skills for life. I don't think it is the
:17:18. > :17:26.answer with the government's new contract, which incidentally is a
:17:26. > :17:31.business owned up I had never heard of. -- owner. Why had the fanfare
:17:31. > :17:35.when Nick Clegg launched it in April last year -- I heard the
:17:35. > :17:40.fanfare. I do a lot of work and none of the hundreds of businesses
:17:40. > :17:46.are a work with had heard of that Yves there. The youth contract has
:17:46. > :17:53.not been rolled out in Wales yet, as it. So this may change. Even so.
:17:53. > :18:01.They have not even heard of it. We do business outside of Wales.
:18:01. > :18:08.good point from Mikaela. She says, education used to mean a job.
:18:08. > :18:12.However that is far from the case now. Yes to apprenticeships. A few
:18:12. > :18:17.quick comments. Do people think apprenticeships are the way
:18:17. > :18:22.forward? I am on the entrepreneurship course as well and
:18:22. > :18:28.I travelled down from North Wales to Swansea. It is a good solution
:18:28. > :18:33.but it is only in one place in Wales. They need to expand it.
:18:33. > :18:37.And the only way they can get finance is through making it a BTEC
:18:37. > :18:42.which means there is so many assignments that we do not get to
:18:42. > :18:49.do the practical side as much as we should. So you think it should be
:18:49. > :18:53.more vocational. OK. I want to get into the plumbing trade and it was
:18:53. > :18:59.very difficult or stop you have to be in with an employer to begin
:18:59. > :19:02.with and pay your own money. It was like there was false hope at the
:19:02. > :19:09.end of it. You are stuck. obstacle to getting there in the
:19:09. > :19:13.first place and you might not get there anyway. Yes. I think the
:19:13. > :19:18.problem is, apprenticeships are built as a wonder weapon to end
:19:18. > :19:25.unemployment but it is a case-by- case basis of stock my dad has a
:19:25. > :19:31.heating company. The government does not need to get involved. What
:19:31. > :19:36.is the point of putting a million people on to an apprenticeship when
:19:36. > :19:44.they will not get a job at the end of it. Lots of messages coming in
:19:44. > :19:53.and picking up on David's point about making your own luck.
:19:53. > :20:00.Anonymous says: Some people have more luck than others. And bring it
:20:00. > :20:09.British Industry bag, that is from Emma. -- bring the British industry
:20:09. > :20:13.back. Back to you. Just a final comment
:20:13. > :20:19.from you, David. You have heard what a lot of the young people on
:20:19. > :20:24.saying. Do you think they have a point? Yes, but it must be noted
:20:24. > :20:28.that employment has grown under this government. It was in free-
:20:28. > :20:33.for-all under the last government. More people are going into public
:20:33. > :20:38.sector work. The private sector was deprived. We are seeing it balance
:20:38. > :20:44.out now and sadly the people who would normally go to the private
:20:45. > :20:49.sector when they leave university, the jobs are not there. But to turn
:20:49. > :20:57.its back on its head, have any of you thought of setting up your own
:20:57. > :21:02.business? I set up my own business at 19. By that time I was 30 I had
:21:02. > :21:09.a chain of salons. I had had a music career. Things do happen but
:21:09. > :21:15.you have got to chase it. It was tough 20 years ago because the
:21:15. > :21:21.country was on its knees after the then Labour government. The RMO had
:21:21. > :21:25.to come in and bail us out! -- the RMO. We are now one of the
:21:25. > :21:32.strongest economies in Europe and we are getting better with it. It
:21:32. > :21:36.is OK looking towards the future. You are our future. Get out there,
:21:36. > :21:42.seize the day, make the most of it, that is what it is about. That is
:21:42. > :21:52.what I did, that is what you must do. He inspirational talk. If you
:21:52. > :22:09.
:22:09. > :22:14.want your point of view it read out, Who has experienced treatment...
:22:14. > :22:19.For many young women stepping outside means they face up to a
:22:19. > :22:23.barrage of comments? People say we need to take responsibility of our
:22:23. > :22:28.behaviour as women so if I go out in a short skirt and a boy touches
:22:29. > :22:37.my bum, that is fine. Why should he not take responsibility for his
:22:37. > :22:44.behaviour? I don't know, I will start again, if a boy whistles at
:22:44. > :22:49.you, do you take that as a compliment? Where do you stop? When
:22:49. > :22:56.they lift up your skirt? What is OK and what is not? Women go into a
:22:56. > :23:03.club and guys think it is OK to pick you up. As in pick you up?
:23:03. > :23:10.That is not OK. Exactly! People do not have respect for women if they
:23:10. > :23:13.want to go out and look nice. Writer Laura Bates set up Everyday
:23:13. > :23:16.Sexism and asked women to tweet examples of sexism and harassment
:23:16. > :23:22.like the ones we've just heard, and received thousands of messages. She
:23:22. > :23:27.told us why she did it. Often, when women complain about
:23:27. > :23:32.sexism we are told to calm down, stop making a fuss, learn to take a
:23:32. > :23:36.compliment. But since I started the Everyday Sexism project, 20,000
:23:36. > :23:41.women have shared their stories of sexism and they are not all just a
:23:41. > :23:47.harmless bit of fun. When you know that over 400,000 women are
:23:47. > :23:50.sexually assaulted and 80,000 raped every year in the UK, I don't think
:23:50. > :23:56.it is OK for or woman to be shattered dad and sexually
:23:56. > :24:02.intimidated in the street, even if it is a more minor incident -- for
:24:02. > :24:07.women to be shouted at. For one woman, it started as talk but ended
:24:07. > :24:13.at sexual assault on her doorstep. It is the same ideas and attitudes
:24:13. > :24:18.about women that make us excuse the small things but also add up to the
:24:18. > :24:21.more serious ones. We must stand up to them all together.
:24:21. > :24:24.But Joanna Lumley and Conservative MP Richard Graham have both spoken
:24:24. > :24:30.out recently and said that women have to take responsibility for how
:24:30. > :24:34.they look and behave. We have got a question about this. I would like
:24:34. > :24:41.to ask, are young women in this country putting themselves at risk
:24:41. > :24:48.by going out clubbing wearing provocative clothing? Shazia.
:24:48. > :24:52.Absolutely. Let me make the point clear, I think it speaks volumes
:24:52. > :24:57.about the attitude in this country that there was such an uproar and
:24:57. > :25:01.people disagreed so heavily with Joanna Lumley. What she said was
:25:01. > :25:07.right. You should not be going out dressed like a Hussey, there is no
:25:07. > :25:13.other word for it. The you should not be throwing up in the gutter.
:25:13. > :25:17.APPLAUSE Of. People judge you by your appearance. When you meet
:25:17. > :25:22.somebody for the first time, they will judge you by your appearance,
:25:22. > :25:26.by the tone of your voice and by the content of what you have to say.
:25:26. > :25:30.If you are wearing a short skirt with your buttocks hanging out,
:25:30. > :25:35.with your cleavage spilling over the top, with high heels, and you
:25:35. > :25:39.are drunk, you are putting yourself at risk. We need to understand that
:25:39. > :25:46.as women, we are vulnerable, and the sooner we take responsibility
:25:46. > :25:52.for that, the better. Men also go out and get drunk. In Cardiff
:25:52. > :25:55.especially, the high street is like a war-zone. When we have
:25:55. > :25:59.international business clients visiting, I will go out of my way
:25:59. > :26:06.not to take them anywhere near a UK high street because I think it
:26:06. > :26:10.reflects really badly on the UK, and it is not just young people. It
:26:10. > :26:15.is not attractive to be dressed in this way. Whoever decided that this
:26:15. > :26:20.was an attractive look, the only way of Essex type of look, is
:26:20. > :26:26.barking mad. It is better to look, you know, if you want to adopt a
:26:26. > :26:30.look of somebody in the public eye, Kate Middleton, Pippa Middleton, it
:26:30. > :26:37.is more sophisticated and it will get you further in life then going
:26:37. > :26:43.out in a mini-skirt. That may well be true but getting back to the
:26:43. > :26:47.point, is it inviting harassment to go out dressed like that?
:26:47. > :26:52.Absolutely not. Joanna Lumley perpetuates this archaic notion of
:26:52. > :26:58.what it is to be inappropriate as a woman and I do not think that we
:26:58. > :27:02.should be listening and buying into that at all. I don't think it is
:27:02. > :27:06.our responsibility as women to make the decision as to whether we wear
:27:06. > :27:10.high heels or trainers because we may need to run away from someone.
:27:10. > :27:15.Although we can run faster in trainers, we should not have to run
:27:15. > :27:19.away from anything at all. It is not us that should be just aware of
:27:19. > :27:24.all these things and harbouring this fear of not being safe on the
:27:24. > :27:32.streets, we should be teaching our young men about how to behave
:27:32. > :27:37.appropriately. APPLAUSE. This is really important
:27:37. > :27:43.to say, the majority of men are kind, decent, intelligent human
:27:43. > :27:47.beings that love and adore and respect women. It is a very small
:27:47. > :27:50.proportion of men that actually treat women in this way. You have
:27:50. > :27:56.projects like the Everyday Sexism project, and I have started to
:27:56. > :28:02.follow them on Twitter, and I found it so depressing. It is women
:28:02. > :28:06.effectively saying, this happened to me, this happen to me, and I get
:28:06. > :28:11.harassed regularly but I answer back and it makes the man who said
:28:11. > :28:17.the comment feel very small. Why aren't these women answering back?
:28:17. > :28:22.Some passionate you points. Are people answering back online? --
:28:22. > :28:32.viewpoints. 95% of people are saying sexism is prevalent every
:28:32. > :28:41.
:28:41. > :28:47.A lot of hands up! Who agrees with Joanna Lumley? Yeah, I totally
:28:47. > :28:51.agree with Joanna Lumley and Shazia. I think the problem, we have been
:28:51. > :28:56.talking about the fact that women are the ones being abused, so
:28:56. > :29:03.logically you have to think why? It is because of what they wear, it is
:29:03. > :29:10.an open invitation, it is more provocative. Even though the men
:29:10. > :29:14.are quite nice, as Shazia said... Not all men! The question is, if
:29:14. > :29:20.you look at it logically, why is it women abused more than men? Because
:29:20. > :29:25.of the way they dress. It is an open invitation. It is like that is
:29:25. > :29:35.the food, it smells nice, I can go for it. It I do not like that
:29:35. > :29:43.
:29:43. > :29:46.Sometimes you don't get the opportunity to say yes or no.
:29:46. > :29:54.suppose I was a fairy moss is sexual assault the then general
:29:54. > :30:02.sexist comments. Is there a link between this kind of casual sexism
:30:02. > :30:08.and sexual assault? I'm going to go to you. Yes, it is usually women
:30:08. > :30:11.who are drunk who often victimised by men. So I think it is more being
:30:11. > :30:16.able to look after yourself and realise what is around you rather
:30:16. > :30:20.than what you are wearing. So it is up to women to make more and be
:30:20. > :30:27.responsible decision on how much they are drinking, maybe have their
:30:27. > :30:33.friends lookout for the more. good point, you need to shift the
:30:33. > :30:41.focus completely, and in said work on the attitudes of those who rape.
:30:41. > :30:44.-- instead. Does the government take this sense of cash or sexism
:30:44. > :30:49.that seems to be prevalent seriously? There are laws against
:30:49. > :30:55.this. I was shocked to listen to the young ladies saying that you
:30:55. > :31:01.were picked up, all manner of things going on, that is the sort.
:31:01. > :31:05.There are laws to stop that. I think that a woman should be able
:31:05. > :31:10.to where, within reason, whatever she wants, without the threat of
:31:10. > :31:20.being assaulted in any shape or form. Are we not a civilised
:31:20. > :31:27.nation? Are we just pandering to sexism? But it is not an issue of
:31:27. > :31:31.what men wear, it doesn't seem to come into this debate. The
:31:31. > :31:34.experience of sexism is different for the sexes. I think it is
:31:34. > :31:38.important to make the point that we are talking about what John Lumley
:31:38. > :31:44.said so we're talking about how women in the UK address on a night
:31:44. > :31:54.out. Women can be it assaulted on the way to school, it can happen at
:31:54. > :31:57.
:31:57. > :32:01.any time why are women in this country going out in that way? I
:32:01. > :32:06.don't find it attractive. They write nicer ways to be sexy and
:32:06. > :32:12.attractive than displaying everything. They are going out and
:32:12. > :32:17.Clover Stroud should be reserved for the bedroom. Everyone's tastes
:32:17. > :32:22.are different. People should be able to wear what they want to wear.
:32:22. > :32:26.We don't live in an ideal world. The fundamental principle is that
:32:26. > :32:36.every single person should be free to go out without fear of being
:32:36. > :32:36.
:32:36. > :32:41.raped or rest. -- harassed. Whether they are a man or woman. Everyone
:32:41. > :32:46.also needs to take responsibility for their safety, a man or woman,
:32:46. > :32:51.and for men heed Mr accept the fact they you are more honourable you
:32:51. > :32:56.should look after yourself a bit better if you are a woman forced to
:32:56. > :33:03.pick you are very drunk, you cannot look after yourself. Do we agree
:33:03. > :33:09.that women need to take responsibility and look after
:33:09. > :33:15.themselves? I think comments from Joanna Lumley and Shazia Awan
:33:15. > :33:20.tonight are really unhelpful. It is a blaming of the victims, don't get
:33:20. > :33:25.raped, don't do this, don't do that. Oh my God! Way with you tell
:33:25. > :33:30.someone if you dress provocatively, if you go out like that, you will
:33:30. > :33:34.get raped. It is 17th century rubbish. The police have shown time
:33:34. > :33:40.and again, it doesn't matter what the woman was wearing when they
:33:40. > :33:47.were raped. There is no correlation to short skirts or whatever for
:33:47. > :33:54.sexual assault and rape. Even saying that is disgusting. Very
:33:54. > :33:59.interesting point about victim blaming. Me being a dancer, I see
:33:59. > :34:06.it every weekend, I see classy girls, I see girls with their
:34:06. > :34:10.breasts out, with them in, it all goes... It all goes down to the
:34:10. > :34:15.thing, people don't know their limits. Yes, it is nice if they
:34:15. > :34:20.Gill feels comfortable with her breasts out, crack on. If she wants
:34:20. > :34:25.to go out in a nice dress, go for red. The people need to learn their
:34:25. > :34:31.limits and also another factor is drugs. The nightclub I work in, I
:34:31. > :34:37.have seen it loads of times, people off their night on drugs, picking
:34:37. > :34:43.up random boys, you see them with a group of girls them with a boy and
:34:43. > :34:53.you don't see them again. So it is all about limits? Learned your
:34:53. > :34:55.
:34:55. > :35:05.Tony and Elliott, probably reflecting what most people are
:35:05. > :35:32.
:35:32. > :35:40.Probably a good time to look at the You can implement the Power Bar as
:35:40. > :35:50.well, get on Twitter now and tell how our panellists what you think.
:35:50. > :36:01.
:36:01. > :36:06.If you agree with Shazia Awan, If you disagreed, it is time for
:36:06. > :36:08.you to make your voice heard. Radio One and One Xtra are running
:36:08. > :36:11.a campaign about internet safety called Share Take Care -
:36:11. > :36:13.highlighting the dangers of oversharing online. And Claire
:36:13. > :36:22.Perry, an advisor on children to David Cameron, has called for
:36:22. > :36:27.parents to monitor their children's social media activity. My question
:36:27. > :36:37.to the panel is, do you think young people are aware of the dangers
:36:37. > :36:40.
:36:40. > :36:44.online? Let's goatee you first, I had two children, I have one who
:36:44. > :36:54.is 17 and a little boy who is 10. The 10-year-old can run rings
:36:54. > :36:55.
:36:55. > :36:59.around me on the internet. Absolutely run rings around me. But
:36:59. > :37:03.as a parent, we do recognise that there are stripped out there, I
:37:03. > :37:13.have spoken to my children about it and there are parental blocks on
:37:13. > :37:16.I have said it in many speeches in the House of Commons, try to sort
:37:16. > :37:24.out the downloading of music issue, I'm probably the only person in
:37:24. > :37:29.here who still buys a CD. The threat is there, the cyber threat
:37:29. > :37:38.is always there. It is how we are going to manage this better in the
:37:38. > :37:44.future. But the legislation in place, there will always be
:37:44. > :37:50.loopholes. Tom, you fronted the Radio One campaign, you are an
:37:50. > :37:53.expert on online safety, what is your take? I think people don't
:37:53. > :38:00.understand how public everything is now. They don't understand you can
:38:00. > :38:03.find out practically everything about anybody. I think the more
:38:03. > :38:07.that people realise that we live in a completely transparent world, the
:38:07. > :38:13.more they will temper their own behaviour. I don't think people
:38:13. > :38:18.understand. You were given a day to research a family and you found out
:38:18. > :38:23.an absolute load, it was extraordinary. You have a sister
:38:23. > :38:28.who is a couple of years older. Mother's maiden name is always
:38:28. > :38:36.important, it gets used as a password. Could this be your
:38:36. > :38:43.mother's maiden name? Your date of birth is...? Your current partner
:38:43. > :38:51.is quite good looking! That is only available to about 1 billion people
:38:51. > :38:55.worldwide. What do we think? Do we need regulation? Are we aware of
:38:55. > :38:58.the dangers? I find it worrying that the government were to
:38:58. > :39:03.legislate the internet and what we can do, we have seen in the last
:39:03. > :39:09.few years, with the Arabs bring, the power of transparency,
:39:09. > :39:16.anonymity, it has been phenomenal - - the Arab spring. And our
:39:16. > :39:20.government is trying to bring in more control. We are not trying to
:39:20. > :39:27.put legislation in place to monitor or police the internet, that has
:39:27. > :39:31.got to be first on the table. What I have been involved in his a
:39:31. > :39:36.commercial transaction, a musician great a piece of work, he sells it
:39:36. > :39:41.in, it is downloaded it legally, it is theft. It is a commercial
:39:41. > :39:44.transaction, that is what we are trying to do. Personally, I don't
:39:44. > :39:50.get what the younger generation want to tell their shoe size, what
:39:50. > :39:53.they had for dinner, who they are seeing, their whole life is out
:39:54. > :40:00.there, the gentleman over their said, you can find it so much about
:40:00. > :40:07.somebody like that. Is it a problem, do you think, that so much
:40:07. > :40:11.information is put out there? think that information gets out
:40:11. > :40:16.there, there needs to be more education I do from home or from
:40:16. > :40:21.schools to let people get more savvy about using the internet. It
:40:21. > :40:27.is about teaching people about how to make certain elements of their
:40:27. > :40:30.lives private. I don't think that regulating things in the way that
:40:30. > :40:39.you might be proposing is the best thing to do, because the internet
:40:39. > :40:43.is beyond regulation. I think this whole idea of trying to regulate
:40:43. > :40:47.the internet wouldn't work, it is more about individuals. And about
:40:47. > :40:57.having faith in young people, we can be educated to learn how to use
:40:57. > :41:02.
:41:02. > :41:12.things properly and we can just do They're saying it is not the root
:41:12. > :41:19.
:41:19. > :41:22.of of the government to regulate. - So it is a question of trust. Last
:41:22. > :41:25.week, David Cameron 'came out' in support of equal marriage, but less
:41:25. > :41:32.than half of Conservative MPs followed his lead. 22 Labour MPs
:41:32. > :41:38.and four Lib Dems also voted against. Elizabeth has a question
:41:38. > :41:44.about this. Why are people continuing to cling to the outdated
:41:44. > :41:49.notion that one man, one woman is the only real form of marriage?
:41:49. > :41:58.have a direct this to David. thought you would! I actually voted
:41:59. > :42:03.against the legislation last week. The reason I voted against it was
:42:03. > :42:12.because, in my mailbag, constituents sent me over 1000 e-
:42:12. > :42:18.mails and letters and I had in the region if 50 that wanted me to vote
:42:18. > :42:22.for it. As an MP, my job is to listen to my constituents. But I'm
:42:22. > :42:26.also a legislator. And the whole legislation put before the House of
:42:26. > :42:31.Commons last week was a dog's breakfast, it was open to all kinds
:42:31. > :42:33.of legal challenges from Europe and other places. I think if you are
:42:34. > :42:38.going to do this form of registration, you should do it
:42:38. > :42:43.properly. And to be frank, I think will get savaged in the Lords once
:42:43. > :42:47.the bishops get hold of it. And I think it is the wrong time to do
:42:47. > :42:51.this, not in the status of equality but purely because of the timetable
:42:51. > :43:01.of pushing this through. It should have had more time to be worked on
:43:01. > :43:05.in the committee stage. Just fill up an MP's mail back with male and
:43:05. > :43:14.then you will get change whatever law you want! I cannot believe
:43:14. > :43:22.politics by mail bag, that is astounding. That is the ballot box!
:43:22. > :43:30.That is our democratic system. if people wanted to bring back
:43:30. > :43:33.hanging... Let's be realistic. is not playing to the audience. It
:43:33. > :43:39.is a matter of equality and the hand of the quality should extend
:43:39. > :43:45.to all not just the people... Instantly, all Welsh Tory MPs voted
:43:45. > :43:55.against equal marriage, and I think that is fundamentally wrong.
:43:55. > :44:00.all the Plaid Cymru MPs voted for it! When I get married, as a
:44:00. > :44:05.straight woman, I do not think that the love why would feel for my
:44:05. > :44:09.partner is any better or any more pure than a love that a gay man
:44:09. > :44:14.would feel for his partner, or a lesbian. I think what you're saying
:44:14. > :44:16.is fundamentally wrong. David Cameron is a great leader of the
:44:16. > :44:21.Conservative Party, this will probably make me even more
:44:21. > :44:25.unpopular, but he is a modern, progressive leader, and he is
:44:25. > :44:28.stumbling because his own MPs are not supporting him. Equal marriage
:44:28. > :44:32.should have gone through easily, because we have bigger issues to
:44:32. > :44:40.deal with, like the economy, we shouldn't have spent so much time
:44:40. > :44:44.on this. There were four votes that night, one I voted against, or
:44:44. > :44:48.three are voted for. This registration will go through, that
:44:48. > :44:58.is evident, but my job as the legislation, I thought it was
:44:58. > :45:08.
:45:08. > :45:13.Has this exposed a fault line in the Conservative Party? It has
:45:13. > :45:17.shown them as being out of touch and not representing... It is the
:45:17. > :45:21.Conservative leader that is bringing it forward! But the
:45:21. > :45:25.majority of your party voted against it. It is your role as a
:45:25. > :45:29.spokesperson to be representing equality and development and change.
:45:29. > :45:34.Her what happens when it goes to the House of Lords and gets thrown
:45:34. > :45:41.out? You are supposed to be representing... I am a legislator,
:45:42. > :45:46.that is my job. You are perpetuating an idea... Let's speak
:45:47. > :45:50.to... What happens when the House of Lords throw it out, you said?
:45:50. > :45:55.The unelected Lords should not be in any position to throw anything
:45:55. > :46:01.in it or out. APPLAUSE That is a different matter,
:46:01. > :46:05.obviously. Do you feel this has become a big negative issues for
:46:05. > :46:11.the Conservative Party? It has certainly divided the party.
:46:11. > :46:16.Personally, I am all for it or stop I can't see an issue with it. In
:46:17. > :46:21.the same way I could marry a woman, I do not see it, there are too many
:46:21. > :46:29.dinosaurs in the Conservative Party that are holding the future of the
:46:29. > :46:32.party back. A good message that has come in online from Mark. He is
:46:32. > :46:39.making a point to people who say it equal marriage should be allowed
:46:39. > :46:45.because of the idea of the family unit. So he says, should infertile
:46:45. > :46:50.heterosexual couples be stopped from getting married? OK, more from
:46:50. > :46:56.the audience. It is a bit harsh to criticise David quite so much on
:46:56. > :47:00.voting against. The fact is, he was voted in by his constituents. We
:47:00. > :47:07.need to get her over the idea that every MP represents the entire
:47:07. > :47:15.country. MPs represent their constituency. David Padmore noes
:47:15. > :47:20.Ben yeses and he voted against it - - David had more noes. If that is
:47:20. > :47:27.what his constituents want, that is what they get. That was a
:47:27. > :47:31.backhanded confident! Men and women married, they have kids, that is
:47:31. > :47:36.how the world develops. If it is men and men, the world will not
:47:36. > :47:41.develop. Not everyone will do that there. But I do not think it is
:47:41. > :47:47.right. It is not how nature works. So you are against it, anybody
:47:47. > :47:51.else? Yes. I am against equal marriage because although I hate to
:47:51. > :47:56.judge people just by who they are, and I would not judge their
:47:56. > :48:00.behaviour, I would judge the morality of their behaviour. You
:48:00. > :48:06.are destroying the very meaning of marriage. You are destroying the
:48:06. > :48:12.harmony between them. There is no reason for equal marriage... No
:48:12. > :48:18.valid reason for it so they disagree with it. She thinks it is
:48:18. > :48:22.interfering with morality, anybody else? I just want to make the point,
:48:22. > :48:26.David, I do not mean to attack you, but as someone who this decision
:48:26. > :48:31.does not affect what so were for, why should you have the right to
:48:31. > :48:35.deny somebody else a freedom that does not impact you? It should not
:48:35. > :48:39.be your decision. If someone wants to be gay and get married to
:48:39. > :48:46.another man, another women, it does not affect you in the slightest.
:48:46. > :48:50.APPLAUSE. This lady will respond directly.
:48:50. > :48:55.The because his constituents ask you to. Leanne looked on in
:48:55. > :48:59.discussed at the notion of an MP listening to their constituents.
:48:59. > :49:03.How will people have their say apart from having a vote once every
:49:03. > :49:09.four years? If you are talking about morality, you should not be
:49:10. > :49:14.able to restrict somebody's freedom when it has no impact upon you.
:49:14. > :49:20.job is to represent his constituents. The in my opinion he
:49:20. > :49:24.made the wrong decision. I think you could argue for some time!
:49:24. > :49:29.think it is such an out of date argument. Homosexuality was
:49:29. > :49:33.legalised in the 1960s. This is still carrying on. I think it is
:49:33. > :49:37.about time we got state and religion, but Bemersyde, and did
:49:37. > :49:44.what is right for people in this liberal democracy, because if it
:49:44. > :49:49.really is liberal, then people should be free and equal.
:49:49. > :49:53.Personally, I do not understand what the problem is. For the people
:49:53. > :49:56.who are not happy about same-sex couples getting married, the
:49:56. > :49:59.government has included in this Bill that the Church of England and
:49:59. > :50:05.the Church of Wales have the religious right to prevent the
:50:05. > :50:10.marriage if they want to, so all we are allowing his choice. Every
:50:10. > :50:14.person to choose what they want to do. And if two people feel they
:50:14. > :50:17.love each other and one to commit, and I thought marriage was about
:50:17. > :50:22.committing to one other person for the rest of your life, I didn't
:50:22. > :50:27.realise it had anything to do with your sexuality and that that could
:50:27. > :50:33.affect your morality. This lady feels it is gender-neutral. What do
:50:33. > :50:39.you say to that? I missed the question. She thinks it is Deng --
:50:39. > :50:45.should be gender-neutral. Let's put it this way. When I have got a huge
:50:45. > :50:52.mailbag from my constituents wanted me to vote against this legislation
:50:52. > :50:56.and I look into, it was a good point you made about the reporting,
:50:56. > :50:59.this legislation will be contested through the European Court of Human
:50:59. > :51:04.Rights and those people who do not want to see gay marriage going
:51:04. > :51:07.ahead will be equally as upset as those who do. If you are going to
:51:07. > :51:11.put legislation forward in the oldest parliament in the world,
:51:11. > :51:16.make sure you do it properly because what will happen is it will
:51:16. > :51:19.come back and bite your heart and my gut feeling is that this
:51:20. > :51:26.legislation will probably time out before me but the House of Lords
:51:26. > :51:31.will savage this. As a person, not a politician, I am as liberal as
:51:31. > :51:35.everybody else. But as a politician and a legislator, it is a flawed
:51:35. > :51:38.piece of legislation and it should never have got this far. If it was
:51:38. > :51:43.going to go before the House of Commons it should have been looked
:51:43. > :51:48.at with more scrutiny. Let's go back to the lady who asked the
:51:48. > :51:51.question. I just wanted to say, because there were so many people
:51:51. > :51:56.for it in government, that the House of Lords would have a lot of
:51:56. > :51:59.pressure on them to vote it in, as far as I am aware. I agree that
:51:59. > :52:02.there have we it has been done is not necessarily the best but
:52:02. > :52:06.because of the amount of pressure from government, I thought the
:52:06. > :52:12.House of Lords would say yes. is a religious element to the House
:52:12. > :52:18.of Lords and that must be taken into consideration. Religions teach
:52:18. > :52:22.tolerance, David. Religions are about tolerance. Also remember that
:52:22. > :52:28.well-organised campaigns can fill MPs' mailbags. That is one thing we
:52:28. > :52:34.have learnt tonight for sure. have celebrities now that are on TV,
:52:34. > :52:38.they get married 24 hours later they have a divorce. Surely more
:52:38. > :52:43.should be done for people to realise what the vows of marriage
:52:43. > :52:53.are ban preventing two people who love each other from getting
:52:53. > :52:55.
:52:55. > :52:59.married -- than preventing two people. I do not understand. This
:52:59. > :53:05.is a different issue about how important marriages and whether or
:53:05. > :53:09.not we are educating people in that. For me, the most important thing is
:53:09. > :53:13.two people being able to make a commitment to each other. The
:53:13. > :53:17.wedding rings, at the wedding, at the paper, it is not that important
:53:17. > :53:22.to me personally but to many people marriage is important, and people
:53:22. > :53:28.do want to give a public display of their commitment to another person,
:53:28. > :53:33.and whether that is between two women, two men, a man and a woman,
:53:33. > :53:38.I think there should be equality as a basis for everyone. Quickly. Yes
:53:38. > :53:44.of stock there are so many things wrong with the arguments against
:53:44. > :53:48.equal marriage. You say your mailbag is all. This is equality!
:53:48. > :53:52.We are the minority, you will not have a full mailbags. Arguments
:53:52. > :53:56.that it is ruining the sanctity of marriage. Just because I cannot
:53:57. > :54:03.marry a guy, it does not mean I will be gay any more. I will always
:54:03. > :54:07.love a man, even if I cannot marry him. Quickly from this gentleman.
:54:07. > :54:11.David said about the people who disagree with their marriage being
:54:11. > :54:16.upset. The people who disagreed with desegregation upset when that
:54:16. > :54:22.went through. Why are we getting bigger its affect the democratic
:54:22. > :54:28.process? -- why are we allowing a begets the to affect the democratic
:54:28. > :54:33.process? I just wanted to say that all of these questions seem to be
:54:33. > :54:37.coming about central government, the big religion debate. I am a
:54:37. > :54:42.Conservative and damn proud to be part of that party and I agree and
:54:42. > :54:46.believe we have equal marriage -- I am proud. I think as a country we
:54:47. > :54:53.should behind it, despite the mailbag. Lots of people talking
:54:53. > :55:00.about religion. James asks why religion still has any part in
:55:00. > :55:07.politics? This man thinks Britain should follow the principles of
:55:07. > :55:13.Christ. Marriage is religious, according to him. Emerson has been
:55:13. > :55:23.against gay marriage is as bad as racism. -- MLA it says are bidding
:55:23. > :55:23.
:55:23. > :55:28.against gay marriage is as bad as After this conversation, one thing
:55:28. > :55:32.I would really like to take away, especially with the nature of
:55:32. > :55:37.speaking about women and feminism, is a want to move away from this
:55:37. > :55:42.normalisation of things like a slut shaming and calling women hussies
:55:42. > :55:46.and names like this. If we can take anything away from this debate and
:55:46. > :55:50.the way in which we see each other, is that we have to have neutral
:55:50. > :55:53.respect and women should not feel ashamed and dictated to about how
:55:53. > :55:57.to dress appropriately, and I would like all the men and women in that
:55:57. > :56:06.room to take that away with them today.
:56:06. > :56:09.APPLAUSE That is almost it. Hanks to our audience, our panel, and to
:56:09. > :56:12.you at home for sending in your comments. The debate continues
:56:12. > :56:15.online. Join us next time live from Liverpool on March 6th at 8pm.
:56:15. > :56:19.We'll leave you with some final thoughts from young people here in
:56:19. > :56:23.Swansea on our key topic tonight: long-term unemployment. If I was in
:56:23. > :56:27.charge, I would offer more job- training so people with no
:56:27. > :56:32.experience would have more of the chance. I would offer more
:56:32. > :56:36.apprenticeships for the youth of today. If I was in charge, I would
:56:36. > :56:39.create more volunteering opportunities. If I was in charge,
:56:39. > :56:45.there would be more equal opportunities so it does not matter
:56:45. > :56:48.who you know but how good you would be at the job. School should
:56:48. > :56:52.provide more practical qualifications, not just academia.
:56:52. > :56:57.I would freeze the retirement age to make more jobs for young people
:56:57. > :57:00.are. Own would create new training centres for young people. I would