:02:42. > :02:52.This is Free Speech. Your chance to have your say about what matters to
:02:52. > :03:07.
:03:07. > :03:17.This is what dreams are made of. Obviously I believe in the freedom
:03:17. > :03:20.
:03:21. > :03:24.Good evening. Welcome to Free Speech for another busy month. I am
:03:24. > :03:29.Jake Humphrey and tonight we are live from the Corn Exchange in
:03:29. > :03:33.Edinburgh. Good evening. That is good. That is good. We have a
:03:33. > :03:36.lively bunch in here. Getting serious for a moment, if you are
:03:36. > :03:42.waiting for your A-level results you might not be as perky as
:03:42. > :03:46.everyone here. Highers came out last week, with a record number of
:03:46. > :03:50.passes, but what comes next? Are you going to university or
:03:50. > :03:54.following a different path? We have conducted a special poll of 500
:03:54. > :03:58.young people to find out their views on higher education. In the
:03:58. > :04:02.meantime, we want you to get in touch with us and tell Michelle De
:04:02. > :04:12.Swarte your point of view on higher education and anything else we
:04:12. > :04:24.
:04:24. > :04:32.debate. She is waiting for you, so Your comments could be part of
:04:32. > :04:36.OK, you know how to get in touch. You have met our overexcited
:04:36. > :04:39.audience. It is time to meet the panel. She is performing on the
:04:39. > :04:49.Edinburgh Fringe stage in less than an hour-and-a-half, well done to
:04:49. > :04:52.her for being here. Comedian Shappi Khorsandi. Well done. Up next, free
:04:52. > :05:00.market campaigner from the right- wing think-tank the Institute of
:05:00. > :05:03.Economic Affairs, Ruth Porter is with us. Now, at just 27 he is the
:05:03. > :05:08.youngest SNP MSP which means he is a Scottish National Party member of
:05:08. > :05:16.the Scottish Parliament, therefore he is definitely Scottish. Humza
:05:16. > :05:25.Yousaf is with us tonight. And finally, Catholic journalist and
:05:25. > :05:29.social media commentator Milo Yiannopoulos. OK, so those are the
:05:29. > :05:32.panellists and the debate is about to fire up. Before that, do me a
:05:32. > :05:37.favour. If you are on Twitter, grab your phone, get your tablet because
:05:37. > :05:41.this is the only show on TV with the power bar. Only you can power
:05:41. > :05:51.it up by letting this lot know what you think. This is the way it works.
:05:51. > :05:59.
:05:59. > :06:09.Use the #yes or #no followed by a I am sure you are getting the gist
:06:09. > :06:13.
:06:13. > :06:19.So, please, don't sit there shouting at the TV, start changing
:06:19. > :06:22.the show by tweeting the power bar. We look forward to you getting in
:06:22. > :06:25.touch. First, when we raise the subject of the death penalty, we
:06:26. > :06:29.couldn't believe the strength of the response that we got. Marvin
:06:29. > :06:32.Wilson was executed last week in Texas, although he may have been
:06:32. > :06:40.mentally impaired, and James Holmes may face the death penalty if found
:06:40. > :06:43.guilty in Colorado. On Sunday night Amal Fashanu meets a survivor.
:06:44. > :06:47.I stood up people were helping people out of the theatre, just
:06:47. > :06:57.covered in blood. I don't know how many people were just dragging and
:06:57. > :06:58.
:06:58. > :07:08.crawling, and running, and screaming... It was the most
:07:08. > :07:09.
:07:09. > :07:17.horrific thing I had ever seen. It was like so much blood - it is not
:07:17. > :07:20.like what you see in Hollywood at all. A tough watch, that show is
:07:20. > :07:28.coming on Sunday, so to kick off the discussion about the death
:07:28. > :07:35.penalty, let us go to our audience. First Lisa. Where are you? Can the
:07:35. > :07:39.death penalty ever be justified? Shappi, you first. That was hard to
:07:39. > :07:43.watch, that bit. Can it ever be justified? No. It can't. It is as
:07:43. > :07:49.black-and-white as that to me. How many times can you, if, depending
:07:49. > :07:56.justice or revenge, if someone is a mass murderer how many times can
:07:56. > :08:00.you kill them? So that is not justice, that is revenge, and are
:08:00. > :08:03.we civilised? Are we going to seek revenge? We can take this person
:08:03. > :08:11.and protect the public from them, because we are a cilvilised people
:08:11. > :08:14.who don't do this. One thing I have to say about the death penalty.
:08:14. > :08:18.Some countries have public execution, we used to in Britain,
:08:18. > :08:22.and I have this, the same idea about those who are for and against
:08:22. > :08:27.the death penalty as people who eat meat. If you are going to eat meat
:08:27. > :08:31.you should be able to kill a chicken with your bare hands. If
:08:31. > :08:34.you are pro the death penalty, you should be able to push that switch
:08:34. > :08:40.yourself or go to a public execution. Is that the sort of
:08:40. > :08:45.person you want to be? For me, it is that black-and-white. It's not
:08:45. > :08:48.part of a civilised society. Milo? If you think about child-killers,
:08:48. > :08:51.serial killers, I am not convinced the number of people, you know, I
:08:51. > :08:55.think there are, there is a sizeable portion of people who
:08:55. > :08:58.might be, and the other thing is, we are told that a representative
:08:59. > :09:08.democracy, the point is to save us from ourselves, that is why
:09:09. > :09:10.
:09:10. > :09:14.Governments enact legislation that isn't what people really want. I
:09:14. > :09:16.find that patronising, and you know, I think people do a good job of
:09:17. > :09:20.governing themselves when they are given the opportunity. In poll
:09:20. > :09:30.after poll after poll it shows the British public is in favour of
:09:30. > :09:35.
:09:35. > :09:39.death penalty. I am not saying give them a chat show. I think perhaps
:09:39. > :09:43.the public might say, "I don't want to pay for him to be alive either.
:09:43. > :09:46.So a human life is about money? the argument would be when somebody
:09:47. > :09:51.has taken so many other lives they have relinquished their own right.
:09:51. > :09:54.So you are saying you agree? certain cases it can be justified.
:09:55. > :09:58.Let us find out what people are saying online. There is an
:09:58. > :10:05.overwhelming response. Philip says "Only if guilty beyond reasonable
:10:05. > :10:12.doubt, and if the defendant is declared sane." And Shannon has a
:10:12. > :10:16.good point. She says the problem with the death penalty, never 100%
:10:16. > :10:19.sure of guilt. Look at America and how many convictions have been
:10:19. > :10:26.overturned. Give us your thought on that, Ruth? This is a question that
:10:27. > :10:30.goes to the heart of who we are as a country. I think once you get to
:10:30. > :10:33.the point where you see, actually, the Government is going to sanction
:10:33. > :10:38.the cold calculated killing of someone for no other reason than
:10:38. > :10:43.retribution, you have changed the nature of how we view human life.
:10:43. > :10:46.It is not for self-defence or another reason. Picking up on this
:10:46. > :10:49.question, of the nature of democracy, I think it is totally
:10:49. > :10:54.understandable that we all have incredibly strong feelings about
:10:55. > :11:02.this. I mean, these are people in many cases who have done the worst
:11:02. > :11:06.possible imaginable acts. And I think for that reason, we need to
:11:06. > :11:09.make sure that life means life in more cases than it tends to. I
:11:09. > :11:18.think there is a sense in which there is some freedoms and rights
:11:18. > :11:25.which go beyond, if people... People in this country thought, I
:11:25. > :11:28.don't think we would go along with that. Humza? There is a couple of
:11:28. > :11:32.things. I agreeed with the points Shappi was making earlier. Where
:11:32. > :11:42.ever the death penalty is used, it is used disproportionally. Look at
:11:42. > :11:43.
:11:43. > :11:46.the USA. There are more Afro- Americans. On top of that as Shappi
:11:46. > :11:49.was saying, the death penalty cannot be undone, so here in the UK,
:11:49. > :11:59.where we have a fairly robust system, we still have miscarriages
:11:59. > :12:01.
:12:01. > :12:06.of justice. We can let people go free, the state can compensate them.
:12:06. > :12:10.Until we find a way of bringing death penalty should remain in the
:12:10. > :12:14.past. OK. Michelle, your first thoughts on the power bar this
:12:14. > :12:24.evening. Let us find out if people have responded to your comments by
:12:24. > :12:27.
:12:27. > :12:34.firing up the power bar. Humza. Off to a good start there. So that is
:12:34. > :12:42.what people at home are thinking. The audience? Fire away. Two points
:12:42. > :12:45.to pick up on there. One, in America the death penalty is for
:12:45. > :12:49.things like cop killers and mass murderers and drug lords, people
:12:49. > :12:53.who put themselves out on the firing line to die every day. So,
:12:54. > :12:57.is there really any sort of... Would it put people off, these
:12:57. > :13:06.people who are being put on death penalty, is it a deterrent for
:13:06. > :13:09.them? You talk about the - sorry, Milo, you talk about the cost. In
:13:09. > :13:12.America, 20, 30 years, a prisoner can spend on Death Row in legal
:13:13. > :13:20.battle, appeals, because you have to be 100% sure. That costs
:13:20. > :13:25.millions. That is an interesting point. We know it cost on average
:13:25. > :13:28.�50,000 a year for a prisoner to be kept in prison. So a 20 year
:13:28. > :13:31.sentence you are looking at �1 million. Is that part of the
:13:31. > :13:35.argument? It is too expensive to keep some people in prison.
:13:35. > :13:39.answer is to shorten the amount of time people are on Death Row. If
:13:39. > :13:43.cost is a consideration, then I suppose you need to look at why
:13:43. > :13:51.people are on Death Row for 30 years, which seems to be odd for
:13:51. > :13:55.sentences to be handed down. have to be sure of what you are
:13:55. > :13:59.doing. If you choose to use the death penalty, you have to be 100%
:13:59. > :14:03.sure, if you have to go through years, the cost will be high. Not
:14:03. > :14:08.that we should be putting the cost, but it will never be a low cost if
:14:08. > :14:11.you decide to have a system where you use the death penalty. Lots of
:14:11. > :14:15.talk it will deter people from committing crime, but since 1967,
:14:15. > :14:22.1,300 or more people have had the death penalty. Maybe that isn't an
:14:23. > :14:27.argument. I imagine if I committed a crime so heinous as murder, then
:14:27. > :14:30.I would be a person who felt like I had nothing to lose in life. I
:14:30. > :14:34.don't think that the death penalty would deter someone acting on those
:14:34. > :14:43.instincts they have. Also, can I just tell you something, just from
:14:43. > :14:46.a personal point of view. When my uncle was 19, he was shot dead by
:14:46. > :14:51.an off-duty policeman, and in Iran, the, my grandparents had the choice
:14:51. > :14:54.to let his murderer live or receive the death penalty. And my
:14:54. > :14:57.grandmother, from completely a non- religious point of view, her
:14:57. > :15:07.instinct was to say, "Killing another mother's son isn't going to
:15:07. > :15:11.bring back my own." Although she was tortured to her dying day about
:15:11. > :15:20.the loss of her son, the one thing she knew is that she didn't kill
:15:20. > :15:24.someone, she didn't commit, so that is such a personal thing. That guy
:15:24. > :15:31.that killed my uncle, do you think that he would have not killed him?
:15:31. > :15:38.It was in a demonstration. I don't think the deterrent thing works, I
:15:38. > :15:43.think that you only create more badness, if you continue. A life
:15:43. > :15:46.for a life doesn't work from Shappi. I want to get into the audience.
:15:46. > :15:50.have two interesting takes on the saying an eye for an eye. It should
:15:50. > :15:54.be justified for the sake of the victims who have lost a life. Then
:15:54. > :16:00.we have Lauren who says "An eye for an eye makes the whole world
:16:00. > :16:07.blind." One person online saying it evens things up, Shappi says it is
:16:07. > :16:11.not the case. Any time a murder happens, every person is a victim.
:16:11. > :16:15.Whether it is the killings in America from the Batman movie or at
:16:15. > :16:24.home, and you cannot let a victim of a crime decide the punishment in
:16:24. > :16:29.a civilised society. That is not humane, that is not natural. At the
:16:29. > :16:33.back? Do you think if the death penalty was brought in there would
:16:33. > :16:40.be a reduction within murders in the UK? That is not something we
:16:40. > :16:48.have seen in the US. Do any of you think you would see a reduction in
:16:48. > :16:51.crime? No. Crystal clear. I think the death penalty is right in these
:16:51. > :16:55.circumstances, especially with the Batman shooting, because you get
:16:55. > :16:59.life. What is the benefit of it? You have to take it in the next
:16:59. > :17:04.level. If they kill like 12 people, as they did in the Batman shootings,
:17:04. > :17:07.I just think it is right, that, you know... You lose your life.
:17:07. > :17:11.have destroy 12 people's life and their whole families's life as well.
:17:11. > :17:19.Gentleman to your left. Would a better priority not be to tighten
:17:19. > :17:29.gun laws in the US? Would that not cut crime? A different subject, but
:17:29. > :17:29.
:17:29. > :18:20.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 50 seconds
:18:20. > :18:30.you are watching this at home, to We will wrap that question up.
:18:30. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:42.Thank you. Now let's talk about 70% of young people believed to
:18:42. > :18:48.rich and fees are to blame. No such drop off in Scotland where
:18:48. > :18:53.university education is free if you are Scottish. 57% think going to
:18:53. > :19:03.university is worthwhile and the benefits outweigh the cost. Here
:19:03. > :19:20.
:19:20. > :19:26.I was working in various jobs. family always wanted me to have
:19:26. > :19:36.opportunities. I wanted the experience and opportunities you
:19:36. > :20:04.
:20:04. > :20:08.get by going to university. My life After I finished my apprenticeship,
:20:09. > :20:11.I got offered a job. I like being in front of people and talking to
:20:11. > :20:14.people. It's my ideal job. studying information systems, which
:20:14. > :20:17.is a mash up between computer science, marketing, business and
:20:17. > :20:22.working with people. Pay day. first pay day. Today should justify
:20:22. > :20:25.the harder work and longer shifts. It is good to have got my first pay.
:20:25. > :20:28.I am delighted. I kind of stumbled into student politics and getting
:20:28. > :20:31.involved with my union. That has been the most life-changing
:20:31. > :20:36.experience. It is that opportunity you have when you are at university
:20:36. > :20:39.to do those sort of things that you will never do in the rest of your
:20:39. > :20:44.life. That is something I really love. My job is secure. I have
:20:44. > :20:46.everything ready to go, as long as I work hard. That is me set up for
:20:46. > :20:50.I work hard. That is me set up for life. Get a house, a mortgage,
:20:50. > :20:53.whatever I want to do. It is there if I want it. Two different
:20:53. > :20:57.approaches. I love that you are already thinking about the pension
:20:57. > :20:59.and the house! You are enjoying the social side, right? Yes. You have a
:20:59. > :21:02.question. Given the economic climate, many young people are
:21:02. > :21:05.considering the worth of higher education, what do the panel think?
:21:05. > :21:08.Is it worth it, Ruth? Those two stories were awesome. They
:21:08. > :21:13.demonstrate what is central to this. We are all completely different.
:21:13. > :21:16.One of the things which is a big shame when it comes to this issue
:21:16. > :21:19.is that we have become obsessed with this idea that somehow going
:21:19. > :21:23.to university is what makes you educated. I think increasingly that
:21:23. > :21:27.is an outdated way of looking at education when you look at the
:21:27. > :21:30.impact of technology, you look at the scope of the media, you look at
:21:30. > :21:34.the changing face of communications, the way we access information and
:21:34. > :21:37.the ability that we have to learn, I think it is quite outdated to
:21:37. > :21:41.focus so heavily on university to concentrate on that. But there is
:21:41. > :21:44.still a place, I think, for some people and for certain skills in
:21:44. > :21:47.terms of going to university. I think, again, then, we have a
:21:47. > :21:50.system where there is a massive focus on the standard three-year,
:21:50. > :22:00.or four years in Scotland, for undergraduate degrees, where you
:22:00. > :22:08.have massive summer holidays. We need much more diversity in the way
:22:08. > :22:15.universities deliver. Your power bar went shooting up to the top
:22:15. > :22:18.during that! Shappi, you were looking nonplussed? No, I was
:22:18. > :22:23.imagining a scenario where a young person says, "I haven't got a
:22:23. > :22:28.degree, but I have spent loads of time on the internet!" LAUGHTER
:22:28. > :22:35.APPLAUSE. You can understand Ruth's point, that there is more than one
:22:35. > :22:43.way to get an education? I think that is a little bit of a cop out
:22:43. > :22:47.attitude that we are now having towards education. I think what we
:22:47. > :22:50.are saying is it is OK, little people, who don't have the money,
:22:50. > :22:54.you can read comic books, perhaps! It is such an important thing that
:22:54. > :22:58.we take this issue seriously. This will go on for generations. We have
:22:58. > :23:01.to see beyond the financial crisis and see what values we are now
:23:01. > :23:04.instilling where we are saying that only certain people can go to
:23:04. > :23:09.university because what we are doing then - we have a free
:23:09. > :23:13.healthcare. Healthcare is as important as an education. If you
:23:13. > :23:18.are educated, if you have a degree, formal education is the biggest
:23:18. > :23:23.factor of social mobility. This matter is a matter like so many
:23:23. > :23:26.others about class. What we are saying is that we think that this
:23:26. > :23:34.formal education is only suited to certain people in certain sections
:23:34. > :23:39.of society. Then money comes up. Someone has to pay for everyone to
:23:39. > :23:42.go to university? I'm not an economist. Get George Osborne,
:23:42. > :23:46.right, tip him upside-down, give him a shake, and let all that
:23:46. > :23:56.change roll into the coffers of council estate kids and pay for
:23:56. > :24:01.
:24:01. > :24:06.their education! This is massively an issue about class. OK. APPLAUSE.
:24:06. > :24:10.Michelle? Shappi, you seem to have someone who is in agreement with
:24:10. > :24:13.you. "Surely it is a bad thing if people are academically restricted
:24:13. > :24:18.by cost rather than intellectual ability?" That seems to be your
:24:18. > :24:28.point. Another one: "I learnt practical media skills for �20 a
:24:28. > :24:28.
:24:28. > :24:34.term." Worth a thought. Certainly is. Let's talk about this. Shappi
:24:34. > :24:38.saying everyone needs education. Maybe it is the only way. Nick, you
:24:38. > :24:42.have an example of the fact that perhaps it is not just about going
:24:42. > :24:48.to university, right? Yes, I mean, for myself, I left - I was running
:24:48. > :24:52.a business at school. I thep went on to university while I was --
:24:52. > :24:58.then went on to university while I was running that business. I then
:24:58. > :25:01.dropped out of university. If I can go out into the real world and run
:25:02. > :25:06.my business and go full steam ahead with it and learn from the mistakes,
:25:06. > :25:10.then that is what I was going to do. University is the real world. I
:25:10. > :25:14.think it is the real world. It is brilliant that you have done what I
:25:14. > :25:20.did. I have a friend who was a musician. That is an exception.
:25:20. > :25:23.Brilliant that you are doing so wonderfully. Is it everything,
:25:23. > :25:27.university? Is it not part of the way... It should be offered to
:25:28. > :25:31.everybody, for free. You get a 16- year-old that has to make that
:25:31. > :25:35.decision - I know you have years to pay it off. A 16-year-old that
:25:35. > :25:41.thinks 25 grand, am I going to put my parents through that?! They are
:25:41. > :25:44.going to be put off. It is important to - this is something
:25:44. > :25:47.that makes me angry. It is something that's happened with the
:25:47. > :25:51.discussion of tuition fees. It is partly a political play. There's
:25:51. > :25:54.been this campaign to scare people about tuition fees. Now, this is a
:25:54. > :26:02.horrible tragedy. What happens is it breaks down the element of the
:26:02. > :26:04.education system. It is persuading and pushing people from
:26:05. > :26:08.underprivileged backgrounds who are more than intelligent enough to go
:26:08. > :26:12.to university and scaring them off. The reality is you don't pay it
:26:12. > :26:15.back until you are earning a certain amount of money. After 30
:26:15. > :26:24.years, it evaporates. It is not a horrible commitment if you get a
:26:24. > :26:27.good job. If you don't get a good job, you don't pay it! What's been
:26:27. > :26:34.a horrible betrayal of young people has been the left-wing press which
:26:34. > :26:38.should stick up for these people, scaremongering about tuition fees.
:26:38. > :26:41.You have to lay some of the blame for the nosediving applications at
:26:41. > :26:48.a press that continually reminds people how scarily expensive it is.
:26:48. > :26:52.The problem is that they are paying for it. If you manage to get into
:26:52. > :26:55.Oxford or Cambridge, nine grand a year is is a brilliant deal. I'm so
:26:55. > :26:59.sorry, I feel so strongly about this. I'm really sorry. This makes
:26:59. > :27:03.me want to cry. What you are saying is it is about money. What we are
:27:03. > :27:07.telling young people is that it costs to get an education. To my
:27:07. > :27:17.dying day, I will chant what I chanted as a student, education is
:27:17. > :27:21.a right, not a privilege! APPLAUSE. Let's dive into the audience. Let's
:27:21. > :27:29.hear from people who were put off by the cost of going to university.
:27:29. > :27:35.Anybody? Yes? At the back? I left school at 16. I have quite a good
:27:35. > :27:38.position. I support people back into work. A lot of the people that
:27:38. > :27:42.have been to university go to a job interview and an employer says,
:27:42. > :27:50."Can you tell me about the time you did this?" and they don't have the
:27:50. > :28:00.answer. Those who have been to university, let's hear from you?
:28:00. > :28:01.
:28:01. > :28:05.Yes? I went to university for four years. I came out without a degree.
:28:05. > :28:09.I came out after volunteering from my Students' Union and when I was
:28:09. > :28:15.in school, I couldn't speak on the telephone. I work in a call centre
:28:15. > :28:20.now! LAUGHTER. It worked then. No degree but you gained a lot?
:28:20. > :28:24.Exactly. The gentleman there? education and a free university
:28:24. > :28:30.education should be a universal right and not a luxury and a
:28:30. > :28:34.privilege for the rich. APPLAUSE. think I agree with what Shappi was
:28:35. > :28:41.saying. I went to university and did a medical degree but I was also
:28:41. > :28:45.raised by a single parent on income support. If I had to face �9,000 a
:28:45. > :28:55.year in tuition fees, even if I had to pay that back, it would not have
:28:55. > :29:00.gone. How much did you come out debt-wise? About �18,000. Earning
:29:00. > :29:09.as a professional, it is manageable. I will pay it off. I still haven't
:29:09. > :29:14.paid it off and I have been working for six years. Maybe the answer is
:29:14. > :29:18.people have to pay for it but we have to keep the cost manageable.
:29:18. > :29:22.agree with what Shappi was saying. There is a fundamental principle -
:29:22. > :29:26.education is a right and it should be free. This idea of blaming the
:29:26. > :29:30.left-wing press for it, it is ludicrous. People will be totally
:29:30. > :29:35.put off. Be you from an underprivileged background or the
:29:35. > :29:42.squeezed middle. Psychologically, there is already a barrier there
:29:42. > :29:45.before you start work. This excuse about look, we don't have enough
:29:45. > :29:53.money in the coffers, you can't say you don't have enough money and
:29:53. > :30:02.then manage to find �100 billion to renew nuclear Trident missiles. You
:30:02. > :30:11.can't... The English taxpayer pays for Scottish... That is a
:30:11. > :30:21.patronising argument! In Scotland we pay 9.6% of the tax and make 4%
:30:21. > :30:28.
:30:28. > :30:32.of the population. So we compare pretty damn well! APPLAUSE. OK.
:30:32. > :30:36.is an issue of priority. The to make education free for those
:30:36. > :30:39.that it has an interest over. Now, it has that duty. If the UK
:30:39. > :30:43.Government doesn't want to prioritise education, that is up to
:30:43. > :30:46.them. It is not just a question of priorities. It is a question of how
:30:46. > :30:53.do you make higher education more affordable? The current idea that
:30:53. > :30:58.we have this standard degree, it is not the way of making it affordable.
:30:59. > :31:07.If you look at doing things like - it is not good value for anyone.
:31:07. > :31:10.Someone is still paying for this. If you had things... Don't spend
:31:10. > :31:13.that �100 billion on Trident, close down that �25 billion legal tax
:31:14. > :31:18.loophole and then you have �125 billion to spend on education.
:31:18. > :31:22.do we not have more options on where you can go and you can work
:31:22. > :31:26.intensively over the summer and get it done in two years? We need a
:31:26. > :31:29.whole range of different options so people have got choices. I need to
:31:30. > :31:33.say something. Milo, if you want to discuss the Mickey Mouse economics,
:31:33. > :31:40.why don't we gun after the people who don't pay their tax, the
:31:40. > :31:44.wealthy people who do not pay their tax? And also I want to put this
:31:44. > :31:48.idea out there that I think education, that time you spend is
:31:48. > :31:54.not all about getting a job at the end of it, particularly if you are
:31:54. > :31:57.doing an arts degree. I have some sympathy with this argument. You
:31:57. > :32:01.are right. Particularly in an environment where most graduates
:32:01. > :32:04.don't come out with jobs. The great thing about university is the
:32:04. > :32:14.opportunity it gives you to flourish. Let's speak to the
:32:14. > :32:16.
:32:16. > :32:26.audience. I am going into my last year in university studying
:32:26. > :32:28.
:32:28. > :32:32.journalism, they tell us to get work experience. If I had looked
:32:32. > :32:35.for it when I left high school, would I have a job already in my
:32:35. > :32:39.sector? We have people who have taken apprenticeships. Give us your
:32:39. > :32:42.thoughts. I am not just at university for the education, I
:32:42. > :32:45.have done a lot, after leaving school and have put something back
:32:45. > :32:49.into the economy. When I say higher education, I am talking about
:32:49. > :32:54.college and other education, but to say it is not about everyone has to
:32:54. > :32:58.go university or had to go college. The fact more and more people don't
:32:58. > :33:04.have that choice, from my primary school I am one of three out of a
:33:04. > :33:14.class of 30 who made it to university. From the area I come
:33:14. > :33:20.
:33:20. > :33:23.from, that is appalling. From St Andrews, 12 people from over 1,000
:33:23. > :33:27.people from the poorest 20% in the country. That is, these decisions
:33:27. > :33:31.are made long before they get to the door of university. It is about
:33:31. > :33:34.everyone having the equal access to education. That is the problem at
:33:34. > :33:37.the moment. Of course that doesn't guarantee you any jobs, at the
:33:37. > :33:41.moment, the unemployment for graduates is at the highest for ten
:33:41. > :33:44.years. I don't know if you have experience of that. I just left
:33:44. > :33:47.university this summer and I managed to get a job. Not very high
:33:47. > :33:51.paying. What are you doing? Customer service administrator.
:33:51. > :33:54.Would you have got that without your degree? Possibly. Are you glad
:33:54. > :33:57.you went through the university system? Absolutely. The value of
:33:57. > :34:01.education is more than just the education itself. But I think when
:34:01. > :34:04.people like Shappi talk about it as a right, what we need to do is
:34:04. > :34:07.focus on the education where it matters, which is primary and
:34:07. > :34:16.secondary education. The Government is spending more on university
:34:16. > :34:20.education as an afterthought. The Government spending on that group
:34:20. > :34:23.is more based onto the middle class, I think that is unfair on people
:34:23. > :34:29.who are on lower incomes. Did you pay tuition fees? I didn't. Would
:34:29. > :34:32.have you have gone if you had to? Yes. One of the things I would like
:34:33. > :34:36.to bring up, I think it's a great cornerstone of Scottish education,
:34:36. > :34:40.pupils who leave school and go to university are given free tuition
:34:40. > :34:43.fees. One of the problems I see is there are sometimes pupils who
:34:43. > :34:46.perhaps should not be going on to university but perhaps have the
:34:46. > :34:51.qualifications to allow them to get into a university and they decide
:34:51. > :34:57.the route is the best way to go, one or two years down the line they
:34:57. > :35:01.drop out and they probably don't gain a lot of experience. Maybe a
:35:01. > :35:04.little bit, but not a great amount. It would be worthwhile for more
:35:04. > :35:08.pupils to go and do more vocational qualifications. We used to have a
:35:08. > :35:13.good focus on that, and that seems to have gone. I think with the new
:35:13. > :35:15.school curriculum we might see that coming back. You guys are doing
:35:15. > :35:19.vocational qualifications working for ScotRail, is that right? Give
:35:19. > :35:25.us your opinion, what it is like doing that? Are you glad you did
:35:25. > :35:29.that? It is the best decision I have made. I think on the job,
:35:29. > :35:32.working for ScotRail I have gained lots of different things. I have
:35:32. > :35:39.gained qualifications, we have done practical things, such as the Duke
:35:39. > :35:43.of Edinburgh Award. That is not something that would be easy to fit
:35:43. > :35:48.in if I was at university. Before we go back to Michelle, Nick, how
:35:48. > :35:53.much is your business worth now? Not exactly sure. Roughly? This
:35:53. > :36:00.year it is a third year trading. It is over �500,000. Not bad, is it.
:36:00. > :36:04.Not a bad story. Michelle, online? Adam has one. He says one problem
:36:04. > :36:07.with this is there is no jobs and you can have the best degree but
:36:07. > :36:13.still end working in a fast-food restaurant. I did, after my degree.
:36:13. > :36:17.Loved it. Thank you for contributing! Finlay agrees with
:36:17. > :36:23.that chap at the back. He says rising fees should encourage
:36:23. > :36:27.businesses to make more apprenticeships for school leavers.
:36:27. > :36:35.Looking at the power bar, why do you think you are slipping behind,
:36:35. > :36:39.Milo? I don't know. It might have been that thing... Thank you very
:36:39. > :36:43.much. We will have to leave that there. If you want to get involved
:36:43. > :36:53.you can dive on to Twitter and use the power bar to tell our
:36:53. > :37:07.
:37:07. > :37:10.panellists what you think. This is Of course. You will get some votes.
:37:10. > :37:15.Please don't sit there shouting at the TV, get in touch and start
:37:15. > :37:19.changing the programme using the power bar. Now, same sex marriage.
:37:20. > :37:22.It will be legal in Scotland by 2015 and England may not be too far
:37:22. > :37:25.behind with legislation either. But religious leaders have objected to
:37:25. > :37:29.the proposals and claim they haven't been listened to. Let us
:37:29. > :37:32.find out what the audience have to say. Where is Emma? Fire away.
:37:32. > :37:40.you believe that religious bodies have been marginalised by the
:37:40. > :37:44.introduction of equal marriage in Scotland? Marriage is not
:37:44. > :37:48.exclusively a religious institution, it is not a secular institution. I
:37:48. > :37:54.think it is important to listen to what churches have to say. Here is
:37:54. > :37:57.why. Because this was a cynical marketing ploy by David Cameron,
:37:57. > :38:02.this gay marriage thing. As a gay man, I am not particularly
:38:02. > :38:04.interested in it. I don't want it, I have the rights and
:38:04. > :38:12.responsibilities available to me through civil partnership. I find
:38:12. > :38:16.it patronising. It is used as an electoral weapon. What worries me
:38:16. > :38:20.is someone is going to challenge this in the Court of Human Rights,
:38:20. > :38:25.gay activists have said they will do it, to try and force churches to
:38:25. > :38:28.conduct gay weddings. When that happens and you have imams who are
:38:28. > :38:30.told you have to perform gay weddings, you know, when you have
:38:30. > :38:37.Catholic Churches and Church of England churches padlocking up
:38:37. > :38:39.because they can't accept it, you start a war. It is totally
:38:39. > :38:45.unnecessary for us ever to have this brinkmanship, which will
:38:45. > :38:54.happen. The other problem is a practical one, given nobody wants
:38:54. > :38:58.it. Nobody is asking for it, and it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter,
:38:58. > :39:04.we have civil partnership. It is exactly the same. It is just a word.
:39:04. > :39:07.This word. Words are important. is triggering rows, and if you look
:39:07. > :39:10.at the countries where gay marriage has been introduced, like Spain,
:39:10. > :39:14.look at the incidents of homophobic violence that follows. It is not
:39:14. > :39:18.right, but given there is no real advantage, there is no up side to
:39:18. > :39:22.introducing it, given it was only an electoral tool, do we want to
:39:22. > :39:26.kick that off in our own country? As a gay man I couldn't be less
:39:26. > :39:30.interested. I don't want it, I don't need it, I don't know why we
:39:30. > :39:40.are having a discussion about it. The word equality - is the word
:39:40. > :39:40.
:39:40. > :39:44.equality not important? As a gay man, listen, it is so simple. This
:39:44. > :39:51.situation is black-and-white. Do we want equality or not? We have
:39:51. > :39:54.equality. You don't. We don't. Civil partnership is better. I say
:39:54. > :40:00.this as a Catholic journalist who does believe. For people who don't
:40:00. > :40:10.believe, you don't have any of that baggage. As a gay man, you are like
:40:10. > :40:18.that one Asian guy that comes along and wants to join the BNP. When I
:40:18. > :40:28.tell you what happens, right, yes... When people run out of arguments
:40:28. > :40:31.they tend to get personal. Do carry on. Look, if you legalise something.
:40:31. > :40:37.Can you understand it is confusing that as a gay religious man you
:40:37. > :40:40.don't believe... It is simple. I don't want to be patronised and I
:40:40. > :40:43.don't want to precipitate a war between the churches and gay people,
:40:43. > :40:47.and I didn't want to trigger homophobic violences. All of those
:40:47. > :40:51.thing also happen. I don't know what is confusing. So not to
:40:51. > :40:56.trigger off racial violence you are saying I shouldn't marry a white
:40:56. > :40:59.guy? That is different. You are saying that this is black-and-white,
:40:59. > :41:04.but the point is, the Government is balancing very carefully different
:41:04. > :41:07.people's freedoms and rights, I understand that. Surely the fact
:41:07. > :41:09.there is such a high risk the European Court would force
:41:09. > :41:15.religious organisations that did not want to conduct same sex
:41:15. > :41:22.married ceremonies. Until we can find a way around that, that is a
:41:22. > :41:27.problem. May I make my point clearer, I understand what you are
:41:27. > :41:31.saying, I haven't explained myself yet. What I think happens is we
:41:31. > :41:37.have to force our culture to catch up with what I think the majority
:41:37. > :41:40.of people want, by regarding homosexuality as natural and equal.
:41:40. > :41:44.When we legalise something, even if the religious institutions can't
:41:44. > :41:49.implement it, if the law says this is natural and normal, which it is,
:41:49. > :41:53.eventually it will be the religion that will have to catch up. They
:41:53. > :41:56.will be the ones who are abnormal. That is an important thing, if they
:41:56. > :42:03.can't implement it, it is hard to force them. Humza. Scotland are
:42:03. > :42:07.leading the way, are you proud of it? I think the argument itself
:42:07. > :42:11.centres round - it is a difficult debate. It is, and it is not easy
:42:11. > :42:14.to have. There is a lot of courage shown by those who have decided to
:42:14. > :42:18.take it forward. The argument is about religious freedom. It centres
:42:18. > :42:22.around religious freedom for me. Those who don't want to do it
:42:22. > :42:25.should be protected from not doing it. That should be on the face of
:42:25. > :42:28.the bill, it should be through the Equalities Act and that should be
:42:28. > :42:32.given, and that from the Scottish Government perspective, that
:42:32. > :42:35.equality, that reassurance - let me finish the point, but the point is
:42:35. > :42:39.for me, religious freedom cuts both ways. So I am a practising Muslim,
:42:39. > :42:43.fasting today, I have another hour to go before I can eat, so I am
:42:43. > :42:46.practising, to me, whatever my views may be or my mosque's view
:42:46. > :42:55.might be, that shouldn't impinge on others who want to practise same
:42:55. > :43:03.sex marriage. I don't drink alcohol, I have never touched a drop. That
:43:04. > :43:08.doesn't mean I want to stop communion where wine is drunk.
:43:08. > :43:12.Protect those who don't want to do it, don't do it at the expense of
:43:12. > :43:16.those who believe it is their religious right. You can see the
:43:16. > :43:20.power bar shooting up to the top with those comments. "I am not
:43:20. > :43:23.homophobic but as a Christian I don't believe in same sex marriage.
:43:23. > :43:31.It is against my beliefs and I shouldn't be attacked for having my
:43:31. > :43:35.own opinion." Did someone attack this person? That glibness is
:43:35. > :43:45.typical of something that religious people do experience. They do feel
:43:45. > :43:48.like they can't express their views. Haven't the churches being offered
:43:48. > :43:55.an exemption, so they have been listened to. Milo, you said a civil
:43:55. > :44:05.partnership is similar. If it is, what is the big deal in changing it
:44:05. > :44:06.
:44:06. > :44:09.and accepting it? It is legally identical. First you can build in
:44:09. > :44:12.protections but they are meaningless as a country by country
:44:12. > :44:16.level. Because we have this umbrella of the Court of Human
:44:16. > :44:19.Rights, it can rule them to be illegal. They, the European Court
:44:19. > :44:23.of Human Rights can rule such clauses to be illegal and overturn
:44:23. > :44:26.them, that is what is going to happen. So your question, it is
:44:26. > :44:36.identical. It is a word, it doesn't matter except to some. To those
:44:36. > :44:38.
:44:38. > :44:41.people, it is an important concept. And the problem is, it is going to
:44:41. > :44:44.precipitate tension, freedoms for different groups, they do butt up
:44:45. > :44:49.against each other and you have to make a judgment. Nathan, is it
:44:49. > :44:52.important to you?. Yes, I think to pick up on what Milo said, it is
:44:52. > :44:55.not just a word. As religious bodies have said, marriage is an
:44:55. > :44:58.institution. At the moment, it is an institution that people are
:44:58. > :45:08.excluded from, purely on the basis of their gender identity and
:45:08. > :45:08.
:45:08. > :45:12.sexuality, that is not equality. They are not excluded by the state.
:45:12. > :45:15.They are not excluded because we have civil partnership. It is the
:45:15. > :45:19.church's right to exclude you if it doesn't consider it to be
:45:19. > :45:23.appropriate. It is their right to be able to do so when they want to.
:45:23. > :45:27.There is nothing you can do about that. The European Court has no
:45:27. > :45:32.power to overturn it. That isn't true. It is. They can issue a
:45:32. > :45:35.statement of incompatability. The UK Government have been told by the
:45:35. > :45:39.European Parliament to allow prisoners to vote and David Cameron
:45:39. > :45:46.has refused to do that, so we can clearly see they have no power to
:45:46. > :45:49.overturn our laws. We have said over and over again, throughout
:45:49. > :45:53.this campaign we do not want to force anybody to conduct same sex
:45:53. > :45:57.marriage. This is about religious freedom for those bodies that want
:45:57. > :46:02.to conduct it to do. It is about secular institutions to conduct
:46:02. > :46:06.same sex marriage. That is an institution that as a gay man I am
:46:06. > :46:13.excluded from at the moment. Michelle, a couple of points
:46:13. > :46:19.online? You have some support from Jake. "Civil partnership is the
:46:19. > :46:28.same and we get our own name for it." We have our own special
:46:28. > :46:31.treatment. That is not enough for you. We have more than marriage. We
:46:31. > :46:35.have better than regular people. We have our own brilliant institution
:46:35. > :46:38.just for us. What is the problem? That is not equality. When the
:46:38. > :46:42.Government has to create a special institution for a special group of
:46:42. > :46:52.people. That is not equality. That says I am not equal to the other
:46:52. > :46:56.
:46:56. > :47:00.group. We will leave that there. We are going to move on to our next
:47:00. > :47:03.topic. We are here in Scotland, in Edinburgh, we are live, and the
:47:03. > :47:06.hottest political debate is the question of independence. We
:47:07. > :47:10.thought the often thing to do was to ask a bunch of comedians what
:47:10. > :47:14.they think of the issue. Everyone says we are on the road to
:47:14. > :47:18.independence. That is a very busy road! This started over ten years
:47:18. > :47:25.ago when we got devolution. This was a big deal for us. I'm from
:47:25. > :47:30.Glasgow. Parts of my city haven't got evolution! The "yes" campaign,
:47:30. > :47:40.to "no" campaign. A lot of Scottish celebrities supported it. We have
:47:40. > :47:48.
:47:48. > :47:55.Brian Cox, we had Midge Ure! We can sell anything to the world. I'm
:47:55. > :47:59.convinced that this is the Loch Ness monster. You get independence,
:47:59. > :48:07.you get to keep all the oil! England will turn round, "Guess
:48:07. > :48:15.what, we have invented the electric car. Unlucky!" It reminds me of the
:48:15. > :48:22.Spice Girls. When it comes to Scottish independence, you are
:48:22. > :48:30.talking about divorce and divorce is expensive! I'm all for Scottish
:48:30. > :48:33.independence. I am hoping when the one o'clock gun goes off, it is
:48:33. > :48:41.another English person getting fired back over the border!
:48:42. > :48:45.Scotland don't do it, we need you. Well done. APPLAUSE. Very good. OK.
:48:45. > :48:49.That is how we are getting home, fired back over the border. That
:48:49. > :48:54.got a few chuckles up here. If you are coming up to the Fringe, you
:48:54. > :48:58.can see Shappi's show. Julie? you think the recent success of
:48:58. > :49:05.Team GB has had an adverse effect on the SNP's chances of being
:49:05. > :49:08.successful in the independence referendum? Humza? Comedians should
:49:08. > :49:18.rule the world rather than politicians! I don't think the
:49:18. > :49:19.
:49:19. > :49:22.Olympics will matter a jot. That is not what the issue is about. The
:49:22. > :49:29.idea of independence is not about taking a chainsaw and cutting and
:49:29. > :49:35.casting Scotland off into the North Sea. The point is that is not what
:49:35. > :49:41.independence is about. I enjoyed the success of Mo Farah, Jessica
:49:41. > :49:44.Ennis and Chris Hoy. That doesn't change because you want to transfer
:49:44. > :49:54.powers and you believe powers should be transferred from London
:49:54. > :50:04.to Scotland. Fundamentally, independence is about that. I don't
:50:04. > :50:06.
:50:06. > :50:10.think it will matter. Do you relate to that, Milo? I will keep it brief.
:50:10. > :50:14.I give up any hope of having any power bar left! It is hilarious
:50:14. > :50:18.that Scotland thinks it can go independent. If you can survive on
:50:18. > :50:24.your own, jettison yourself off to be an economic power the size of
:50:24. > :50:28.Iceland, good luck to you! This idea that you are not worth
:50:28. > :50:32.anything, you can't survive on your own, but we want to keep a hold of
:50:32. > :50:39.you, it doesn't seem to stack up very well. APPLAUSE. I didn't say I
:50:39. > :50:46.did. I didn't say for a second that I was... Sounds like a relationship
:50:46. > :50:50.I was in! I don't care one way or the other. It is funny that
:50:50. > :50:55.Scotland thinks it can do it. Michelle? We have a few here.
:50:55. > :50:59."Independence for Scotland would be stupidity at the least." Alex says,
:50:59. > :51:07."Yes, it would be good for them, but bad news for everyone else in
:51:07. > :51:12.the UK." OK. Where's Scott? I want to hear from Scott. What inspired
:51:12. > :51:16.you to get online, start sending messages? For me, it is this kind
:51:16. > :51:21.of idea that people seem to think they are against independence for
:51:21. > :51:25.Scotland. I do think Scotland could cope on its own. I don't understand
:51:26. > :51:29.why you would want to throw away at being at the top table of the
:51:29. > :51:39.Security Council? We have done things in the UK. We should
:51:39. > :51:50.
:51:50. > :51:53.continue that in the UK. What is gained by this? APPLAUSE. All the
:51:53. > :51:57.successes we have had is because we have controlled those powers in the
:51:57. > :52:04.Scottish Parliament. I don't buy this idea that Scotland has a place
:52:04. > :52:14.at the top table of the Security Council. We don't have influence.
:52:14. > :52:16.
:52:16. > :52:19.Scotland was against the Iraq War, two-thirds of our population.
:52:19. > :52:26.Scotland was vehemently opposed to it yet our sons and daughters had
:52:26. > :52:29.to fight. I agree, we have had a lot of success. Those successes
:52:29. > :52:35.have been with the powers we have had in the Scottish Parliament. Why
:52:35. > :52:45.shouldn't we control our economy? The referendum will be in two
:52:45. > :52:50.
:52:50. > :52:54.years' time. Why so long? Was it a power grab? I'm asking, a party
:52:54. > :52:58.that has one mandate, it gets in power and it doesn't call a
:52:58. > :53:03.referendum. The mandate was in the second half of the Scottish
:53:03. > :53:07.Parliament. I think the point that is made is whether you are for it,
:53:07. > :53:13.or against it, I don't doubt those who are against it, we all want
:53:13. > :53:20.what is best for Scotland. What I don't like is this argument that
:53:20. > :53:29.Scotland can't survive on its own. I have �1 trillion of an oil assets
:53:30. > :53:33.base... You know what the great tragedy is? One of the reasons why
:53:33. > :53:38.it might be a good idea... I will pay for your bus fare... Quick,
:53:38. > :53:48.guys. Scotland had an incredibly proud entrepreneur --
:53:48. > :53:52.
:53:52. > :53:57.entrepreneurial history. Scott, does that answer your question?
:53:57. > :54:03.answers my question. You said there were a lot of questions left to be
:54:03. > :54:10.answered. We are not clear what an independent Scotland is going to be
:54:10. > :54:18.like. There are a lot of questions. Let's try and get and hear from as
:54:18. > :54:21.many people as we can. Milo, the reason we had so many entrepreneurs
:54:21. > :54:31.back in those days is we were the first country to introduce free
:54:31. > :54:35.education. APPLAUSE. So the first half... Just watch over the next
:54:35. > :54:40.few years. Brilliant. Thank you. I'm sure a lot of people enjoyed
:54:40. > :54:44.that. The thing is you were saying, Humza, a bit like Team GB is not
:54:44. > :54:54.relevant, but for the moment, the best argument is we did so well in
:54:54. > :55:01.the Olympics. No-one is telling us what it is going to be like. Was it
:55:01. > :55:06.good for Britain to see everyone under the Union Flag? Yes. There is
:55:07. > :55:15.a while to the referendum. You are pro Union? I haven't made up my
:55:15. > :55:19.mind. Send a leaflet to that lady! Milo was suggesting we lost our
:55:19. > :55:22.entrepreneurial spirit because of big left-wing governments. I would
:55:22. > :55:32.suggest that is more to do with Westminster governments that have
:55:32. > :55:36.managed to cling for decades. Scotland can, as Humza was saying,
:55:36. > :55:41.we are 8.6% of the population, we raise 9.6% of the UK's taxes, but
:55:41. > :55:46.we only get 9 ppbtd 3%. We can do it. -- 9.3%. We can do it. Thank
:55:46. > :55:53.you very much. Humza made the point that Scotland has no influence at
:55:53. > :55:56.the top table. It wasn't that long ago that the Prime Minister and the
:55:56. > :56:00.Chancellor of the United Kingdom were both not just Scottish but
:56:00. > :56:03.Scottish MPs elected by Scottish electors. Scotland does have a seat
:56:03. > :56:11.at the top table. The Olympics have shown we are better together. Where
:56:11. > :56:21.does Sir Chris Hoy train? He trains in Manchester as part of Great
:56:21. > :56:22.
:56:22. > :56:25.Britain, not as a Scottish athlete. He is supported by UK sports.
:56:25. > :56:29.Murray trains in Spain, that doesn't mean we should be part of
:56:29. > :56:32.Spain! The lady in front of you? The question really is about being
:56:32. > :56:36.patriotic, or are you thinking about the complexities of what is
:56:36. > :56:39.going on in Scotland? People aren't discussing - we have not been told
:56:39. > :56:47.what is going to happen with independence and it is about being
:56:47. > :56:52.patriotic and that is not what it is about. Two quick points here?
:56:52. > :56:56.I'm not Scottish, I believe in democracy. If the majority of a
:56:56. > :57:03.country wants that, they should be given the opportunity to do it.
:57:03. > :57:13.Yourself? I think that 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds thould have the
:57:13. > :57:13.
:57:13. > :57:18.right to vote in it. We don't -- should have the right to vote in it.
:57:18. > :57:21.We don't know enough about it. This is the only chance we might be able
:57:21. > :57:25.to see this in your lifetime. quick point from the gentleman at
:57:25. > :57:28.the front? Well, sit more to do with the fact there are arguments
:57:28. > :57:32.both sides. Scotland could make it alone. I'm British and Scottish.
:57:32. > :57:35.You will be taking away a part of my identity. If you become an
:57:35. > :57:40.independent state, you take away my identity as a Brit. Britain won't
:57:40. > :57:44.exist any more. Of course it will. It won't. You want an independent
:57:44. > :57:47.nation... Why should it be a question of your identity? You are
:57:48. > :57:51.trying to argue away how I feel about being British. That is not
:57:51. > :57:55.fair. What is it that makes you feel British? For some people it is
:57:55. > :57:59.Team GB, for some it is watching EastEnders, for some it is X tack
:57:59. > :58:09.factor. Why should that change? -- X Factor. Why should that change?
:58:09. > :58:10.
:58:10. > :58:14.You have made your point. Michelle? We have a few points on Twitter.
:58:14. > :58:22.Humza, you seem to be connecting with people at home. It is only
:58:23. > :58:26.fitting that you have the final word. Thank you very much. Well, I
:58:26. > :58:32.wanted to pick up on the point that 16 and 17-year-olds should be given
:58:32. > :58:36.a voice. It is not fair that they should be able to fight in wars,
:58:36. > :58:39.that they should pay for National Services but have no say in them.
:58:40. > :58:43.So come on the young people. Thank you very much. That is almost it
:58:43. > :58:48.for tonight. Thank you to the audience. You were wonderful. A
:58:48. > :58:52.round of applause for the panel, everybody. APPLAUSE. And Shappi has
:58:52. > :58:55.to run because her show starts in half an hour. Don't go just yet!
:58:55. > :59:04.Our debate continues online. Our next show is live from Manchester.
:59:04. > :59:07.Join us then. We will leave you with more of the Fringe, the
:59:07. > :59:10.Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre. This is their take on the
:59:10. > :59:13.independence question. Good night. So Scotland separates from England,
:59:13. > :59:17.what would we miss? Our fellow socks. A load of our socks are
:59:18. > :59:24.English. The Argyll socks... That is Scottish! What about the Pringle