:00:06. > :00:07.This programme contains some strong language.
:00:07. > :00:11.language. language.
:00:11. > :00:21.This is Free Speech, live. Your chance to have your say
:00:21. > :00:23.
:00:23. > :00:27.# You see me do it on the TV # You see me do it on the TV
:00:27. > :00:37.# But you don't look the same on the TV
:00:37. > :00:38.
:00:38. > :00:41.# Razor sharp blade # APPLAUSE
:00:41. > :00:46.Good evening. It has been a busy Good evening. It has been a busy
:00:46. > :00:52.month, hasn't it? Welcome to Free Speech, I am Jake Humphrey, and
:00:52. > :00:56.tonight we are live at The Dome in Doncaster. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE.
:00:56. > :01:00.Clearly a very popular building around these parts. This is our
:01:00. > :01:04.audience, packed with locals who know this sports complex very
:01:04. > :01:09.I think it's safe to say this building has not seen many nights
:01:09. > :01:19.like tonight. This is your show in here, it's also your show at home so
:01:19. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:26.please do join us tonight. .
:01:26. > :01:26.I hope you can spell Free Speech I hope you can spell Free Speech
:01:26. > :01:28.I hope you can spell Free Speech otherwise you will struggle to get
:01:28. > :01:29.otherwise you will struggle to get otherwise you will struggle to get
:01:29. > :01:31.I hope you can involved in the show. Last night in
:01:31. > :01:37.London we had a stunning online reaction. There were thousands of
:01:37. > :01:45.messages and keeping across it all, our very own star, Michelle de
:01:45. > :01:46.Swarte. Good evening. Good evening, Jake. Can you believe it has only
:01:47. > :01:51.been a month? It has whizzed by. What do you particularly enjoy
:01:51. > :01:54.you are absorbing, soaking up all the thoughts from people out there?
:01:55. > :01:58.You know me, I love a little argument, love the drama. Yes, I'm
:01:58. > :02:03.going to be bringing people online at home into the discussion tonight.
:02:03. > :02:06.Brilliant. There you go, if you want an argument, get in touch with
:02:06. > :02:11.Michelle de Swarte this evening, everybody. APPLAUSE.
:02:11. > :02:19.So we've met Michelle, we've met the audience. It's now time to meet the
:02:19. > :02:28.panel. First up is Sway. Thank you for coming. Thank you for having
:02:28. > :02:33.me, man. What made you say yes? Basically through my music I like to
:02:33. > :02:37.face issues that allow me to hear what young people have to say about
:02:37. > :02:40.certain issues and put my input as well, I couldn't turn it down.
:02:40. > :02:44.I've got a single out this week. Oh really? That helps as well.
:02:44. > :02:47.LAUGHTER. Do you know what, we appreciate your
:02:47. > :02:53.honesty. Nicola McLean is here as well. Lovely to see you.
:02:53. > :02:56.you are a big fan of Twitter, are wearing a hashtag on your chest
:02:56. > :02:59.this evening, I've seen your comments. It's fair to say you have
:02:59. > :03:03.an opinion or two. I do, and I'm not scared to voice it. If I have an
:03:03. > :03:09.opinion, I will say it. Good, that's what we want on Free
:03:09. > :03:14.so you are in the right place. Next to Nicola, Owen Jones is with us.
:03:14. > :03:20.Lovely to see you here. What your boat about Free Speech?
:03:20. > :03:24.Firstly, I look a lot younger about half the audience but it is so
:03:24. > :03:27.important to get young people, are being hammered at the moment in
:03:28. > :03:30.the recession, to get their voices out because all too often they are
:03:30. > :03:33.ignored by people at the top. Are you proud that you have those
:03:33. > :03:36.opinions and knowledge at I don't know, I look about 13 I
:03:36. > :03:39.suppose, but for me I guess just about - as long as I can raise
:03:39. > :03:44.some of those some of those issues then that's
:03:44. > :03:48.job well done. Great. Alongside Owen we have Douglas Murray tonight.
:03:48. > :03:53.Now, you have done Question Time, you've done Newsnight, are you ready
:03:53. > :03:58.for the Free Speech audience? will see. We shall. Should be fun
:03:58. > :04:01.though. Should be good. very much for being here, our panel
:04:01. > :04:05.everybody. So that's our panel. know who they are, but will you
:04:05. > :04:11.agree with what they have to say tonight? Well, this screen will tell
:04:11. > :04:11.All you have to do is send us a All you have to do is send us a
:04:12. > :04:13.All you have to do is send us a message on Twitter and if you like,
:04:13. > :04:14.message on Twitter and if you like, message on Twitter and if you like,
:04:14. > :04:24.All you have to for example, what Sway is saying,
:04:24. > :04:26.
:04:26. > :04:30.all you have to do is add yes Sway to your tweet and he will power up,
:04:30. > :04:34.or add no and he will power It's the same for each of our
:04:34. > :04:39.panellists so you can influence what happens here in the studio. Enjoy
:04:39. > :04:42.the power. Let's crack on because we are in the middle of the BBC's
:04:42. > :04:46.Criminal Britain week and if were watching earlier you will have
:04:46. > :04:53.seen a chilling documentary about mugging. In it, victims like Richard
:04:53. > :05:00.talked about their experiences. Are you all right?", he was "Yeah man,
:05:00. > :05:08.give me your phone", and I was like "What? My phone?", and he was like
:05:08. > :05:14."Yeah man", he reached into my pocket, I pushed his hand
:05:14. > :05:18.as soon as I did that he smacked me round the face something shocking. I
:05:18. > :05:22.thought: right, let's just run away. Horrible. Really horrible, and
:05:22. > :05:25.that's just one person's story. Whether it's being a victim of
:05:25. > :05:28.crime, rehabilitation or policing, there's a lot to say and our
:05:28. > :05:31.audience audience have a lot to say so let's
:05:31. > :05:35.get straight in there. Rachel, would like to kick us
:05:35. > :05:41.question? Hi. The prison system doesn't appear to be working;
:05:41. > :05:48.agree? OK, let's go to you first of all, Owen. A startling fact here.
:05:48. > :05:53.90% of prisoners under 21 re-offend within two years. Is it working?
:05:53. > :05:58.No, and that's a damning indictment. I understand people's anger. I was
:05:58. > :06:03.mugged violently a few years ago and when I was taken to hospital by my
:06:03. > :06:07.housemate to be treated for concussion, the first thing I did
:06:07. > :06:11.wasn't to go: I want to sit him down and understand what drove him to do
:06:11. > :06:17.this; but my starting point is make sure that doesn't happen to me
:06:17. > :06:21.again or people around me and locking people up as we do - we have
:06:21. > :06:25.more young people locked up than any other western country, in fact it
:06:25. > :06:29.has tripled since the early don't think it's working and if you
:06:29. > :06:33.take the re-offending rate, that in itself shows it's not working.
:06:33. > :06:35.need to deal not with the symptoms but the causes. So we have
:06:35. > :06:40.re-offending rates which problem, we also have the fact
:06:40. > :06:45.we have thousands in prison so maybe also prison sentences also aren't
:06:45. > :06:50.deterring people? First of all, when you say is it working, it
:06:50. > :06:54.depends what you think it's meant to do. One of the things prison does is
:06:54. > :06:57.to stop people re-offending but firstly and most importantly it
:06:57. > :07:01.takes people off the streets they've done something that has
:07:01. > :07:04.offended society. Owen refers to that example of being mugged. The
:07:04. > :07:07.first and most important thing not whether or not the mugger
:07:07. > :07:10.years down the line is going to be thinking of not mugging
:07:10. > :07:14.or not that mugger will be and sent to prison because it's
:07:15. > :07:18.about punishment. It's not just about rehabilitation, it's about
:07:18. > :07:22.punishment for things you have done that are wrong. But they will
:07:22. > :07:26.re-offend. That's the point. idea that you can say: there are a
:07:26. > :07:29.certain number of spaces we would ideally have filled in prison, it's
:07:29. > :07:35.nonsense. You have as many in prison as you have people who have
:07:35. > :07:39.committed crimes and been That's it. So how do we get people
:07:39. > :07:44.before they commit crimes? Sway, know you think you need to sort
:07:44. > :07:46.people out when they are young. 120,000 troubled families have
:07:46. > :07:49.identified by the government with social issues at home
:07:49. > :07:53.think will cause problems in the future. Is that where we should be
:07:53. > :07:56.looking? Young people, families? Definitely.
:07:56. > :07:59.I think there are different cases I think there are different cases
:07:59. > :08:04.for different people. Obviously people committing serious crimes
:08:04. > :08:09.such as murder and rape need to be taken out of society, not just for a
:08:09. > :08:13.few months to think about it they need to be taken out so they
:08:13. > :08:19.are not repeating it and getting away with it. APPLAUSE. Thank you.
:08:19. > :08:22.But there are some cases where, if it's petty crimes, it could be
:08:22. > :08:26.simple conversation you can with these youths so you can
:08:27. > :08:31.understand where they are coming from. If you put them in jail and
:08:31. > :08:34.not addressing an issue, just hitting a pause button.
:08:34. > :08:39.minute they go into jail they will convene with other criminals, find
:08:39. > :08:42.out new ideas, have a laugh about it, come out and re-offend, so there
:08:42. > :08:47.are a selective group of youth can be talked to and they just need
:08:47. > :08:50.attention. Know what I mean? So think it's down to each individual.
:08:50. > :08:54.OK, so a group that needs to spoken to and need attention. Is
:08:54. > :08:58.there a group that need more than that though, Nicola? Do we need to
:08:58. > :09:02.be tougher on our very worst criminals? Absolutely. I mean, I
:09:02. > :09:07.agree with everyone's point for first time in my life actually here.
:09:07. > :09:12.I do think that I totally agree with what you just said and also with you
:09:12. > :09:18.guys but I'm one for any murder, anything to do with kids, you know,
:09:18. > :09:22.there isn't anything that for me - capital punishment, I am sorry, I'm
:09:22. > :09:26.totally for that. You would see the death sentence returning?
:09:26. > :09:30.Absolutely, yes. But then the prisons won't be overflowing with
:09:30. > :09:34.people that are never going to come out anyway. It's a rather harsh
:09:34. > :09:38.of stopping prisons overflowing. What about murderers or alleged
:09:38. > :09:42.rapists who three or four years down the line are acquitted? Of course,
:09:42. > :09:50.but there is that argument and that's why it isn't here anymore,
:09:50. > :09:54.but then - But the US has the penalty and it's a far more violent
:09:54. > :10:00.society. The death rate is higher than in this country and we
:10:00. > :10:02.will end up with innocent people being sent to their death.
:10:02. > :10:06.happened with hanging and we must never have that again. Of course,
:10:06. > :10:10.but for me if there's murder, anything to do with children, you
:10:10. > :10:14.know, but as you said, if it's petty crimes do they need to be sent to
:10:14. > :10:21.prison? Probably not but I understand you were mugged, so was
:10:21. > :10:22.I, and the first thing you think of is not to sit down and understand
:10:22. > :10:27.it, streets. It's difficult. Kids can
:10:27. > :10:31.understand and learn. OK, strong views. Honest views. What about at
:10:31. > :10:36.home? It would be good to get the views of people at home with our
:10:36. > :10:42.wonderful Power Bar. Exactly. Strong points you have made. Are you
:10:43. > :10:48.ready for some instant feedback from people online? Hit us with it. All
:10:48. > :10:55.right, fire up the Power Bar. Sway, you are taking the lead there,
:10:55. > :11:01.getting a lot of online love. How does that make you feel? Good, man.
:11:01. > :11:05.Nicola, capital punishment maybe not gone down too well with people at
:11:05. > :11:09.home this evening? That's my opinion. We've spoken about crime
:11:09. > :11:14.and potential punishments. Maybe now it's important to speak to people
:11:14. > :11:18.with genuine experience of prison and rehabilitation and I
:11:18. > :11:21.alongside Simon here. Thanks for coming down here tonight. If you
:11:21. > :11:25.cool with this we would like you share your story not just of
:11:25. > :11:29.why you ended up in jail and what it was like but also the rehabilitation
:11:29. > :11:34.since and how that has helped you. Jail doesn't help anybody at all.
:11:34. > :11:40.Whoever goes there, it's not a lifestyle to be leading. In other
:11:40. > :11:45.lines, there isn't much in jail for people to actually accomplish and
:11:45. > :11:50.also gain from it. My experience, I've got out of prison, I've enjoyed
:11:50. > :11:54.being out of prison, I've learnt new experiences and got onto projects
:11:55. > :11:59.and things like that which have helped me out. The biggest thing
:11:59. > :12:04.my life is to carry on being - on and learning more, and achieving
:12:04. > :12:07.more, and trying to stay out of prison by having something to do
:12:07. > :12:10.throughout the day. to do throughout the day for me to
:12:10. > :12:14.keep occupied. Do you think did anything to help you
:12:14. > :12:18.rehabilitate or was it the rehab had after coming out?
:12:18. > :12:24.nothing to help me rehabilitate. was the rehab afterwards. A couple
:12:24. > :12:27.of projects called Action Housing, there's a few more out there,
:12:27. > :12:31.Connections, things like that that could help, but they
:12:31. > :12:35.be actually bothered in the people that have committed the crimes,
:12:35. > :12:41.are more likely to take on fresh from school, with
:12:41. > :12:44.qualifications, with an education. If they were more convenient to look
:12:44. > :12:45.to people with criminal convictions and past history with crime maybe we
:12:45. > :12:50.would get somewhere in this government, not
:12:50. > :12:53.government, not back to square one each time. So it's doing the right
:12:53. > :13:00.thing with people when they are prison, isn't it? Absolutely.
:13:00. > :13:04.Rehabilitation of course is crucial. My point was simply it's not only
:13:04. > :13:08.about whether or not you prison a useful experience, it's
:13:08. > :13:12.whether society gained from that. So your own experience may not have
:13:12. > :13:17.been helpful for you but it may have been helpful for society. I want to
:13:17. > :13:20.speak to Jason down here. You know from personal experience how
:13:20. > :13:25.committing crime can cost right? Yes. I think the problem is
:13:25. > :13:30.young people aren't aware of the implications at a young age
:13:30. > :13:34.they are going to have later in life of petty crime. At 17, 18, I did
:13:34. > :13:40.few drunken things that stopped me from getting jobs and where I
:13:40. > :13:42.to be now I'm 22. It never really had an effect until I am about
:13:42. > :13:47.years old and you start the better, more experienced
:13:47. > :13:49.and you have a criminal record. If there's someone next to you
:13:49. > :13:54.a a criminal record - maybe they
:13:54. > :13:57.done a crime but haven't been caught - and you are out the door for it.
:13:57. > :14:02.They are going back to the minimum wage jobs just because they
:14:02. > :14:08.get in there because of bit of paper. That's why we
:14:08. > :14:11.write people off. If we are going to rehabilitate them then
:14:11. > :14:15.important it doesn't ruin their lives but we need to get people
:14:15. > :14:18.before prison. That's jobs, opportunities, things to do. I spoke
:14:18. > :14:22.to some youth workers in Manchester and there's a guy running a football
:14:22. > :14:25.club. It costs �4,000 a year to run. He pointed out, if that is cut
:14:25. > :14:31.because of austerity at the it will cost just one of those lads,
:14:31. > :14:33.to put them in prison for a year, �100,000 . My fear is these cuts
:14:33. > :14:36.will get rid of things which give young people a thing to do
:14:36. > :14:40.will be more young people on the streets with nothing to do and you
:14:40. > :14:43.will end up with more of these situations. APPLAUSE.
:14:43. > :14:48.If there are more young people on the streets with nothing to do - I
:14:48. > :14:54.want to get Leon's thoughts - because people think even if there's
:14:54. > :14:59.nothing to do and you are committing crime because of so few
:14:59. > :15:05.opportunities, there have to be consequences, don't there?
:15:05. > :15:10.what was the question again? who have committed crime,
:15:10. > :15:14.to be consequences, don't there? Yes, but I think we are getting
:15:14. > :15:18.people too late. People should be held responsible. There's a certain
:15:18. > :15:22.age when you should know the difference between right and wrong,
:15:22. > :15:27.pretty much. But it's not as that. If your perspective
:15:27. > :15:29.right and wrong is skewed from young age, different to society's
:15:29. > :15:37.viewpoint, then you are there's nothing prison can do about
:15:37. > :15:42.it. OK. APPLAUSE. Michelle, what are people saying
:15:42. > :15:47.online at the moment? It is really, really mixed. Leah says if you are
:15:47. > :15:53.old enough to commit the crime you should take the punishment.
:15:53. > :15:56.says prison is too easy, that's people re-offend. Fred says: locking
:15:56. > :16:00.up people doesn't work, costs much money, we need to find another
:16:00. > :16:05.way to do things. I've got to tell you, some of the responses online
:16:05. > :16:10.are like essays, they are so long, so people - it is really, really
:16:11. > :16:15.mixed. Thanks for getting at home. Keep on doing just that.
:16:15. > :16:22.Danny, we've already heard some of the issues this evening to do
:16:22. > :16:27.crime and the problems it has meant for them, and Danny has made this
:16:27. > :16:32.film for us. I've had prison around my life since I was born. I've
:16:32. > :16:39.Most of them have been in prison. Most of them have been in prison.
:16:39. > :16:42.One has just come out and there's still one that's in prison at the
:16:42. > :16:46.moment that I visit once a week. I don't think about where he is,
:16:46. > :16:51.he has done, just as having a normal chat. When I was
:16:51. > :16:55.little I ended up in foster care age of 9 and moved to Newcastle
:16:55. > :17:01.I was 10. I think being from some of my family was a major
:17:01. > :17:06.part in the way I am now. Because I wasn't down with them getting
:17:06. > :17:11.what they were getting into. I was away from that life.
:17:11. > :17:15.My younger brother, he is 17, but I My younger brother, he is 17, but I
:17:15. > :17:19.feel further down the line like he might do something that could
:17:19. > :17:25.him into trouble and I want him before he does that.
:17:25. > :17:29.Are you staying out of trouble? You have to walk away from it.
:17:29. > :17:32.He is the only one that I get to say: I don't want you to be like the
:17:32. > :17:36.rest, be the exception. It's my job to make sure my brother's all right.
:17:36. > :17:41.At the moment that's all I want to do. That's my main aim for my little
:17:41. > :17:45.brother to stay out of crime. When I wake up in the morning, I think
:17:45. > :17:52.about what is happening next. I've got family in prison. Who is
:17:52. > :17:56.to be next into prison? Is my little brother going to be in trouble?
:17:56. > :18:01.hard to deal with, but at the end of the day I've got to get on with it,
:18:01. > :18:05.that's my life. Well done, it's over. It's over. You can stop hiding
:18:05. > :18:12.behind your hand. You didn't enjoy watching that, no? No. All right,
:18:12. > :18:15.a little embarrassed, but it great film and a really good insight
:18:15. > :18:18.into not your life but your brother's as well. How
:18:18. > :18:22.you think it is for him to have strong role model? I think it's
:18:22. > :18:26.important because if he doesn't have one he will stray down the path that
:18:26. > :18:30.I don't want him to go down going to get into trouble. I don't
:18:30. > :18:33.want that for him. What percentage of people do you think end up
:18:33. > :18:37.trouble because of a lack of role models at home, because they
:18:37. > :18:40.a strong person to guide them? I think most people end up in trouble
:18:40. > :18:45.if there's no one to guide them and tell them what to do, which
:18:45. > :18:49.go about life. What has kept out of trouble, do you think? Being
:18:49. > :18:53.put in care. Really? You think that kept you out of trouble? Yeah. OK,
:18:53. > :18:57.Nicola, I will be interested to your thoughts on this. You are a
:18:57. > :19:00.Mum, you have a family, and it wherever you are in society role
:19:00. > :19:03.models are so important? I definitely think that role models
:19:03. > :19:07.are so important and it should start with parents, brothers, it's amazing
:19:07. > :19:11.what you are doing for your brother. Yeah, you just hope that
:19:11. > :19:15.you bring your children up well enough to understand, like these
:19:15. > :19:20.people are saying on Twitter, you know, and like someone said in the
:19:20. > :19:26.audience, that: do what you would expect people to do to you and not
:19:26. > :19:29.anything bad. Sad. It's not just having role models though, it's
:19:29. > :19:33.making sure people have the right opportunities. How do we explain
:19:33. > :19:37.away that half the prisoners prison don't have the skills for
:19:37. > :19:40.of jobs in this country? That's failing and an obvious failing in
:19:40. > :19:44.the education sector there. That's not unconnected to committing
:19:44. > :19:48.of course, but just quickly that film we've just seen, it was one of
:19:48. > :19:51.the things that was very striking after the riots across the country
:19:51. > :19:54.last summer that a lot of people I spoke to about that, people in
:19:54. > :19:58.communities and things, said the same thing. It was about whether or
:19:58. > :20:01.not, if you did something that was wrong, whilst law and order broke
:20:01. > :20:05.down for a bit and the police weren't around, whether or not you
:20:05. > :20:10.thought the person beside you or that you knew would think badly
:20:10. > :20:13.you for what you were doing or not. When people thought it didn't matter
:20:13. > :20:16.whether you were thought badly of, that's when a lot of this stuff
:20:16. > :20:19.happened. If people stopped moment and realised that it's about
:20:19. > :20:22.them, it's about every and their own response to the people
:20:22. > :20:26.around them, to their family, their friends, that when somebody does
:20:26. > :20:29.something wrong, illegal or whatever, you don't just let it go
:20:29. > :20:34.but you can mention it yourself, think that's how these things start
:20:34. > :20:39.a lot of the time. How can people look just in their own
:20:39. > :20:44.to see what's wrong and right at the very top bankers take billion
:20:44. > :20:48.pounds bonuses when we are facing cuts and when MPs take expenses and
:20:48. > :20:52.still aren't facing prison a couple of years later. How can
:20:52. > :20:55.people like me or people in this audience think we are going to abide
:20:55. > :21:01.by the rules of law because the people at the top do, when they
:21:01. > :21:07.don't. Know what I mean? That is an absolutely key point because during
:21:07. > :21:13.the riots, a backbench MP demanded action should be taken. He had
:21:13. > :21:20.claimed �8,500 for a claimed �8,500 for a expensive TV
:21:20. > :21:24.set. He was asked to pay that back. A student who stole a bottle of
:21:24. > :21:29.water ended up banged up for six months. It's one rule for them and
:21:29. > :21:34.one for everybody else. that's my point. I would love to
:21:34. > :21:38.talk to you more about this. Is a reason for people to commit crime?
:21:38. > :21:44.Michelle, we will come to you for temperature. A little Power Bar
:21:44. > :21:49.update, it's all fired up. Nicola, you are still behind there, babes,
:21:49. > :21:53.but Sway and Owen are neck and You are coming up, Owen. Thank
:21:53. > :21:57.very much. If you would like to get involved tonight, maybe you want to
:21:57. > :22:01.support Owen, you can do just that. Just add the hashtag and the name of
:22:01. > :22:05.the panellist that you a yes or no to your comments
:22:05. > :22:08.like this. Please tonight don't sit and shout at the TV; we would love
:22:08. > :22:11.you to get involved and let us know what you think. Thank you very much,
:22:11. > :22:16.audience, for that first one. don't have any more time to
:22:16. > :22:22.about crime because we are going to have to move on to our next topic
:22:22. > :22:26.tonight, which is web surveillance laws. This is your opportunity to
:22:26. > :22:30.help us decide the topics that we should be debating right here and in
:22:30. > :22:34.the last day or so you got fired up about the suggested
:22:34. > :22:37.surveillance laws. Yesterday Secretary Theresa May
:22:37. > :22:41.legislation would be allowed to introduce the government to see your
:22:41. > :22:44.emails and your texts. Nick Clegg has said they are only draft
:22:44. > :22:47.proposals but this is serious stuff and it's really got people fired
:22:47. > :22:50.at home, here in the sure you have a thought on this as
:22:50. > :22:56.well. We would love you to get involved with Michelle, but Michael
:22:56. > :23:00.has a question on this. Hello. Are the government's new proposals to
:23:00. > :23:02.scrutinise electronic an invasion of privacy? OK, it's an
:23:02. > :23:06.interesting one this, Nicola, because Theresa May has said this is
:23:06. > :23:08.exactly the kind of thing that could catch a paedophile. Now, you have
:23:08. > :23:14.already said that you think the right thing for paedophiles and
:23:14. > :23:16.murderers is the death sentence. Gonna backtrack because I want my
:23:16. > :23:23.little bar to about the bar, Nicola, this is about
:23:23. > :23:27.you being honest. I'm joking. this is legislation that can help
:23:27. > :23:32.catch paedophiles and you clearly feel strongly about them,
:23:32. > :23:35.you think? I have nothing to hide so I have no problem with someone
:23:35. > :23:39.going through mine, but I do understand people think it's an
:23:39. > :23:42.invasion of privacy. I do think with the internet and Twitter and
:23:42. > :23:46.everything, it does need to get tougher. Is it the only way to do
:23:46. > :23:49.it, Sway, to look at all of our texts, all of our messages? I don't
:23:49. > :23:52.- I think they should - it's like the equivalent of people just
:23:52. > :23:56.walking around and opening your front door and going through
:23:56. > :23:59.bedroom because you might paedophile. I think it's a bit
:23:59. > :24:04.ridiculous to say that. They can just go through anybody. They should
:24:04. > :24:07.actually do their research and find out the people who are doing these
:24:07. > :24:12.activities in different ways. There's enough technology about
:24:12. > :24:16.nowadays to not have to scrutinise the general public for what a few
:24:16. > :24:22.people might be doing behind closed doors. APPLAUSE.
:24:22. > :24:26.It feels a little bit like one of these huge nets that fishermen use,
:24:26. > :24:30.they will sweep everything up and might be interested in a bit of it
:24:30. > :24:33.but will sweep up the lot anyway. We are supposed to live
:24:33. > :24:38.society where the state stick its nose into
:24:38. > :24:41.business and people say this excuse, this idea: if I've got nothing to
:24:41. > :24:43.hide, I've got nothing to about. We shouldn't have a situation
:24:43. > :24:49.where the state is literally going through our
:24:49. > :24:53.with family, friends, loved ones, business, and so on. That in my view
:24:53. > :24:58.is crossing a line that a should never cross. OK, comments at
:24:58. > :25:02.home, Michelle? Well, Marvin to think: does anyone think that
:25:02. > :25:06.monitoring emails and phones isn't something they haven't been doing
:25:06. > :25:10.for a long time already? Does that make it right though, Douglas?
:25:10. > :25:14.has always been wrong if they have always been doing it. I agree with
:25:14. > :25:18.your Twitterrer there. I think pretty much
:25:18. > :25:23.internet is able to be hacked. We saw it recently with journalists.
:25:23. > :25:26.It's obviously possible to do it. I add one thing. This is very
:25:26. > :25:30.to something that the Labour government tried to do in 2006,
:25:30. > :25:32.was very unpopular then as There is a mistake about this, it's
:25:32. > :25:36.not as I understand it about reading the emails but what is being
:25:36. > :25:40.for is the ability to get a warrant from a magistrate that allows
:25:40. > :25:42.to work out the number of communications - not reading
:25:42. > :25:46.the number of communications and apparently, I understood just
:25:46. > :25:50.reading it on the train up today, this already happens with telephone
:25:50. > :25:53.communications. So they can find out legally already how many phone calls
:25:53. > :25:56.someone has made without listening in. What they are asking at the
:25:56. > :25:59.moment is to do that on emails as well, so they know if there is a lot
:25:59. > :26:05.of communication between one person and somebody who is already
:26:05. > :26:09.be committing a particular offence. So it isn't quite snooping at emails
:26:09. > :26:13.but it would be very worrying if it got there. It's a step closer
:26:13. > :26:18.though? It could be though, yes. Michelle, can you tell us what
:26:18. > :26:22.people at home are making of our panellists? So you lot have all had
:26:22. > :26:26.your say. Are you ready to get a response from people at home?
:26:26. > :26:33.Nicola? Absolutely, hit me with it, baby. All right, fire up the Power
:26:33. > :26:36.Bar. Oh Nicola! They are almost leaving you in the dust but I am
:26:37. > :26:42.feeling like things can change. Sway, what do you think you have
:26:42. > :26:48.said that has got people at home so animated? The truth. There you go.
:26:48. > :26:53.I would like to get a few quick pointers from the audience. Hi, the
:26:53. > :26:58.government in the past hasn't been very good with dealing with
:26:58. > :27:02.sensitive data, they have lost a lot of things, left it on trains and the
:27:02. > :27:05.like. Can they be trusted with this? No, and also the Conservatives - I
:27:05. > :27:09.never thought I would say this the Conservatives but they were
:27:09. > :27:13.right about New Labour intruding on our basic civil liberties and they
:27:13. > :27:18.promised to have a basic repeal to take away some of those attacks
:27:18. > :27:22.on our civil liberties. We are already the most surveyed society on
:27:22. > :27:26.Earth, if you look at CCTV for example. I don't think as well -
:27:26. > :27:29.how, as you say, will they handle the data? They promised they would
:27:29. > :27:32.get rid of these laws but are talking about reintroducing laws
:27:32. > :27:35.that New Labour were forced to in the first place. It's an
:27:35. > :27:39.interesting point that Labour did try and bring through this
:27:39. > :27:43.legislation, it was opposed by the Conservatives and the Liberals?
:27:43. > :27:49.There is a reason for that which I think that when anyone is
:27:49. > :27:56.government they see a lot of information we don't see, find out a
:27:56. > :28:02.lot of information that doesn't make the news - it's pretty terrifying.
:28:02. > :28:08.The same thing happened with Obama. What tends to happen is you
:28:08. > :28:12.overreact when you get into power. think that is happening now. Do you
:28:12. > :28:22.not think - don't get me wrong, paedophilia is a terrible crime -
:28:22. > :28:23.
:28:23. > :28:27.but punishing the majority, and the internet is - it's just a witch
:28:27. > :28:31.really. I'm on the same page you. Like I said, I don't think the
:28:32. > :28:36.general public should be scrutinised for what a few people are doing
:28:36. > :28:41.behind closed doors which is negative. I would like to
:28:41. > :28:44.someone who thinks this is a good idea. A few hands went down. I
:28:44. > :28:48.think people want their emails not to be seen,
:28:48. > :28:53.it's like Nicola said, I would sooner have someone look
:28:53. > :28:58.through my emails than a child be molested in this country. Is that a
:28:58. > :29:02.necessary thing though, to stop from happening? Yeah, yeahs are, I
:29:02. > :29:08.personally do, yes. You think they will then be able to track
:29:08. > :29:12.criminals? Yeah, yeah, if I'm honest, yeah. Fire away. If people
:29:12. > :29:17.have things to worry about, they shouldn't be hiding anything, to be
:29:17. > :29:24.fair, but there again, what happens with the News of the World, the
:29:24. > :29:27.phone hacking, web hag hacking, I think with whatever happened there,
:29:27. > :29:34.I think this is a late cover-up. think it's already happening
:29:34. > :29:38.this is their way of cleaning up. It seems the next logical step will be
:29:38. > :29:41.ID cards. Interesting. It almost feels like people here are
:29:41. > :29:47.resigned to the fact already happening. What are they
:29:47. > :29:52.saying at home? Very mixed First of all, I have got Amelia and
:29:52. > :29:56.Jake, they are very different, Jake says he has an issue with the
:29:56. > :30:01.government going through his emails and texts, pretty much like what you
:30:01. > :30:06.were saying there, Sway. Amelia says everyone has to understand that we
:30:06. > :30:12.need a filter system and what will do is stop terrorist attacks.
:30:12. > :30:17.Then Bethany says: surveillance on texts? Has the whole world gone mad?
:30:17. > :30:21.Which I quite like. I'm glad you like it. Do we think this
:30:21. > :30:24.something that will come to fruition, Douglas? It probably will
:30:24. > :30:26.at some point. It's already happening that people can find
:30:26. > :30:29.how many times you have had telephone communication with
:30:29. > :30:33.somebody and it will happen they will work out how many
:30:33. > :30:37.you have had an email communication. Picking up on this CCTV point, it is
:30:37. > :30:40.true we are the most surveyed society in the world but the British
:30:40. > :30:44.public's views on that, they don't get excited on that. If you
:30:44. > :30:47.Americans about how they would feel about thousands of CCTV cameras,
:30:47. > :30:51.they are furious, but in Britain we don't mind and increasingly
:30:51. > :30:57.something we tend to accept in this country but we do have to know
:30:57. > :31:01.we would put down a bar. Maybe we are a nation of people with nothing
:31:01. > :31:06.to hide. Putting down a bar, wouldn't it start with filters and
:31:06. > :31:10.those excuses, obviously nobody wants paedophiles and
:31:10. > :31:14.terrorist attacks to be unsurveyed, but isn't the issue
:31:14. > :31:19.be the start and they will gradually introduce further
:31:19. > :31:23.the radar? It's a slippery slope and the point about terrorists, do
:31:23. > :31:26.we want to change the way we ourselves because of terrorists?
:31:26. > :31:32.a sense that is allowing terrorists to achieve their basic aim which is
:31:32. > :31:39.to change way we live so we shouldn't in that response act in
:31:39. > :31:46.that way. It's time for our next topic: sex. In a recent survey,
:31:46. > :31:50.which British town has the most sex? Who do we think came out on top?
:31:50. > :31:54.few shouts for Doncaster. Anywhere else? I can tell you, the place
:31:54. > :31:57.having the most sex in the UK is Aberdeen. Well done, Aberdeen. I'm
:31:57. > :32:03.not sure whether they proud of that or not. What
:32:03. > :32:06.where was second? Edinburgh. think Edinburgh? Just along the
:32:06. > :32:09.road. OK, in second place, And apparently that was before they
:32:09. > :32:18.were celebrating George Galloway becoming their new MP. LAUGHTER.
:32:18. > :32:21.In third place, anyone any idea? Doncaster. It was Doncaster!
:32:21. > :32:27.CHEERING. Nothing to cheer about though, you
:32:27. > :32:30.are slacking. You are not in first place. That would have been the
:32:30. > :32:33.bronze medal in sport. Not good enough. More seriously though,
:32:33. > :32:39.Doncaster I am afraid to say everybody, along with many
:32:39. > :32:43.British towns and cities has a high rate of teen pregnancies and STIs.
:32:43. > :32:46.Alice uploaded this video for us. It's not what you think. Sex
:32:46. > :32:49.education needs to start younger be more in your face. Forget about
:32:49. > :32:57.the birds and bees, most people have sex for
:32:57. > :33:02.sex for pleasure and quite often are drunk when they do it. How many
:33:02. > :33:07.times have you heard the excuse: no, we didn't use a condom, it was
:33:07. > :33:11.heat of the moment, we were drunk. None of these excuses will help you
:33:11. > :33:15.when you are being felt up by the you have known since you were 8.
:33:15. > :33:20.Awkward. Talking about sex in general needs to be more open. If
:33:20. > :33:24.adults can't even be honest about sex, how are young people
:33:24. > :33:30.to ask the questions that could seriously affect their health?
:33:30. > :33:35.Thank you very much. TV presenter of the future there. Let's kick this
:33:35. > :33:42.off. Is the introduction of sex education to the very young be doing
:33:42. > :33:46.more harm than good? OK, key stage 3, it's 11 years old. Too soon?
:33:46. > :33:50.Take Holland, they have younger than that, they are one of
:33:50. > :33:54.the societies most open about sex and they have one of the lowest
:33:54. > :34:02.teenage pregnancy rates in Western Europe, they have sex on average a
:34:02. > :34:06.year later than we do. I remember doing sex ed, I remember my teacher
:34:06. > :34:11.reading out our questions, things like: have you ever had any
:34:11. > :34:14.experience with French maids? Which he kindly answered. It is sometimes
:34:15. > :34:17.embarrassing and awkward but I just feel lots of people don't have a
:34:18. > :34:22.relationship with their parents where they can talk openly about
:34:22. > :34:28.sex. Some do, and good on them, but others find it difficult. I worry
:34:28. > :34:34.that in America, in those places where they don't have sex education,
:34:34. > :34:38.they have the highest rates of STIs and teenage pregnancy because people
:34:38. > :34:46.aren't educated properly. you think then, how do we solve
:34:46. > :34:51.problem like chlamydia? That one is fairly easy. The response is
:34:51. > :34:57.to go younger and younger and have sex education introduced at
:34:57. > :35:02.I am not sure that's where children find out about this. Anyone with
:35:02. > :35:07.younger children or siblings, nieces, will know that people pick
:35:07. > :35:10.up an idea about this very, very young now. You just can't not. Kids
:35:10. > :35:13.of four and five know something that goes on, sort of
:35:13. > :35:17.thing, so the response is always: why don't we educate them
:35:17. > :35:24.at the earliest possible stage and I'm not sure that's the answer. As
:35:24. > :35:29.regards to safer sex thing, there is a really clear difference that is
:35:29. > :35:32.happening in recent years. I was born in 1979, I am old for
:35:32. > :35:38.audience, but people of my generation were living in the shadow
:35:38. > :35:45.of the people who had died in the 1980s from the AIDS epidemic. It
:35:45. > :35:52.a huge thing. Now when I speak to people of the age of this audience,
:35:52. > :35:59.people don't wear a condom because they think HIV is treatable, a lot
:35:59. > :36:05.of misconceptions, people really don't realise the risks that are
:36:05. > :36:08.entailed. I quiver when you say that at the beginning, there are real
:36:08. > :36:12.problems on the opposite side of having a great time having sex, and
:36:12. > :36:18.people seem to lose sight of sometimes. What do you think,
:36:18. > :36:22.Nicola? Owen has already mentioned the lowest rate of teen pregnancy in
:36:22. > :36:25.Europe; this country has the highest. How do we stop that? I do
:36:25. > :36:30.think that sex should be better. I think that it
:36:30. > :36:33.also has to come from the parents because I agree that quite a lot of
:36:33. > :36:38.children are embarrassed to talk to their parents about sex. I
:36:38. > :36:41.I was. I have a six-year-old and feel like you can talk to him about
:36:41. > :36:46.anything, as long as you do it age appropriately. You know, I would
:36:46. > :36:48.have no problem speaking to my six-year-old about sex age
:36:48. > :36:52.appropriately. I'm not going to speak about what we are speaking
:36:52. > :36:59.about now because he doesn't need to know but when I was pregnant with
:36:59. > :37:02.second son and he asked me how he got there, I didn't start talking
:37:02. > :37:06.about a stalk because I wasn't going to lie to him. We can educate our
:37:06. > :37:12.children and they should be able come and talk to us and hopefully
:37:12. > :37:17.will stop teen - young people having babies. APPLAUSE.
:37:17. > :37:22.Is it indicative of a bigger in our society? I am sure you have
:37:22. > :37:26.had the accusation levelled at you, being on page 3, it's sexualising
:37:26. > :37:31.this country; is that a problem? To a certain degree, yes, but me
:37:31. > :37:34.appearing on a page topless hopefully doesn't make young boys -
:37:34. > :37:38.or maybe it does actually - that was a really stupid
:37:38. > :37:42.say - but if their parents are talking to them about it then it
:37:42. > :37:46.doesn't matter what other people are doing. If I was a glamour model
:37:46. > :37:49.years and years ago, it makes no difference. If parents at home are
:37:49. > :37:54.teaching their children. I you are relying on the parents to do
:37:54. > :37:57.that though. Well, I do that to my children. My son, (a) we wouldn't
:37:57. > :38:01.have newspapers lying around the house for him to see that sort of
:38:01. > :38:04.thing but if he asks me a I am going to answer it honestly and
:38:04. > :38:11.he could always come and talk to me about sex because it isn't
:38:11. > :38:16.embarrassing; it's life. Great. Michelle, what's going on online?
:38:16. > :38:21.Matt says: everyone knows about STIs. Got to say some of us found
:38:21. > :38:24.out the hard way, but yes. you think? I totally agree with
:38:24. > :38:27.Nicola that parents should be instrumental in educating their
:38:27. > :38:31.because they know - it's not like when you are 13 then you are ready.
:38:31. > :38:34.Everybody's different. So only a parent or career would know when
:38:34. > :38:38.their child is of the age can totally understand and
:38:38. > :38:42.the information. Does 11 feel too old, too young or just right for
:38:42. > :38:46.you? For me personally I think the younger the better because as long
:38:47. > :38:50.as there's TVs and magazines they are going to see signs of sex
:38:50. > :38:55.so they should understand this instead of wondering for themselves
:38:55. > :39:02.and experimenting in weird ways. Jason has a joke for us. Fire away.
:39:02. > :39:07.Off you go. Oh! Jason? Don't be shy now. It's just a well-known fact
:39:07. > :39:15.that people from certain areas use bus shelter as protection during
:39:15. > :39:22.sex. LAUGHTER. It's just coming to be a standing joke around certain
:39:22. > :39:25.areas and it's a shame but it is true. Younger and younger people
:39:25. > :39:32.having kids. If they are not aware of it - I don't think STIs are a
:39:32. > :39:37.problem. It's your own you can get rid of it. You can get
:39:37. > :39:41.rid of some of them but not HIV. But if it's an innocent life -
:39:41. > :39:45.this point about sexualisation of our society, a great example we've
:39:45. > :39:49.just had by the way, because there was a period a few years ago when
:39:49. > :39:53.topless models suddenly became glamour models and suddenly
:39:53. > :39:59.less of a thing. Not making personal attack or anything but it
:39:59. > :40:09.does diminish it, makes it like something a bit more - For
:40:09. > :40:10.
:40:10. > :40:15.years or - Murdoch, in the 60s. But you said you glamorise sex and you
:40:15. > :40:21.don't leave your newspaper downstairs. You personally don't but
:40:21. > :40:28.when I've read a newspaper the last thing I will do is put it on the top
:40:28. > :40:32.shelf. It lays about. For me, I am in tabloid mags and I do still pose
:40:32. > :40:38.in my underwear occasionally when people still want to see it but I
:40:38. > :40:42.don't buy tabloid mags and keep them around because it's up to me what
:40:43. > :40:47.children see in my house and don't see that. APPLAUSE.
:40:47. > :40:50.You say you don't leave them lying around but newspapers are free for
:40:50. > :40:55.everyone to buy anywhere so a young person could buy that newspaper. You
:40:55. > :40:59.don't know if a 13-year-old for example, is buying it,
:40:59. > :41:03.are looking up to, they are glamorising and thinking the likes
:41:03. > :41:08.of people like you and again not personal but they think
:41:08. > :41:13.the only way to get forward in the world. Where is the line where we
:41:13. > :41:16.see what's appropriate, what to live up to? I understand that, you are
:41:16. > :41:21.totally right, absolutely, but for me I don't look for anybody else to
:41:21. > :41:29.be my children's role models. I'm my children's role model and tell them
:41:29. > :41:33.how - the real issue at stake is the portrayal of women, that they
:41:33. > :41:39.will end up being seen as sex objects but I think
:41:39. > :41:43.separate issue. In the 1950s, often seen as the golden age of family
:41:43. > :41:47.values, we had the same level of teenage pregnancies as we do today
:41:48. > :41:52.so it's not true, this idea of broken Britain, things always
:41:53. > :41:56.getting worse. It's sometimes overegged a bit. We've heard some
:41:56. > :42:01.interesting viewpoints there. What struck a chord with you? This isn't
:42:01. > :42:05.a Doncaster problem, yes we are in Doncaster and Doncaster has high STI
:42:05. > :42:15.rates but this is a national issue. One thing I would like to say is,
:42:15. > :42:16.
:42:16. > :42:20.bigging up our NHS, we have some absolutely fantastic provision for
:42:20. > :42:27.contraceptives, but young people who I represent say the
:42:27. > :42:33.are getting is not relevant to them. Conceptives are there, they
:42:33. > :42:39.not using them. Would you mind sharing with us whether you
:42:39. > :42:43.sex education helped you? think sex education helped me at
:42:43. > :42:49.in any way. From being from Scotland, it's sort of different up
:42:49. > :42:55.there. They don't start teaching sex education until you are about 16
:42:55. > :42:59.now, so I think - everyone has had sex by then, yes. Yes, but in
:42:59. > :43:05.Scotland that's the way they do I think 11 is the perfect age to
:43:05. > :43:11.start getting kids into contraception. There's a comment on
:43:11. > :43:16.exit that I've noticed saying - on Twitter - saying they think condoms
:43:16. > :43:24.should be sold everywhere. I they should be given away free from
:43:24. > :43:28.shops no matter where they are. A sexual health nurse, a higher than
:43:28. > :43:32.national average teen round here. Something
:43:32. > :43:37.is it? I think this is a problem in the UK as a whole. The rates are
:43:37. > :43:41.coming down in Doncaster and the provision of contraception and
:43:41. > :43:45.sexual health in Doncaster is very good. We run very successful clinics
:43:45. > :43:50.in and around the Doncaster area. We've listened to the young people
:43:50. > :43:56.and responded to their requests. We have clinics every day in the
:43:56. > :44:00.colleges, we have clinics within some of the schools in Doncaster and
:44:00. > :44:04.also clinics in and around the youth clubs. They are very well attended
:44:04. > :44:11.and easily accessible to these people. You clearly think you are
:44:11. > :44:19.doing enough. Mmm. What about online? Are you stealing my job,
:44:19. > :44:24.mate? Yes, Which were, weirdly enough his name is, thinks condoms
:44:24. > :44:29.should be sold everywhere and even in schools. Another point: sex
:44:29. > :44:35.education in other countries starts at infant school at the age of five.
:44:35. > :44:38.What are we so scared of here? Another really good point:
:44:38. > :44:42.than parents discouraging sex, make the child more aware of
:44:42. > :44:47.consequences and how to prevent them. Thank you for your comments
:44:47. > :44:54.at home. You can get in touch with Michelle.
:44:54. > :44:57.I think the final point here, in the I think the final point here, in the
:44:58. > :45:04.last ten years syphilis has increased 288% in Yorkshire.
:45:04. > :45:07.Let's move on. Chavs, they are good for a laugh, right? You've got Vicky
:45:07. > :45:17.Pollard, and back in the day everyone remembers Wayne and
:45:17. > :45:18.
:45:18. > :45:24.Waynetta, but is it really funny to laugh at others? A bookmaker's ad
:45:24. > :45:28.suggested tranquilliser Chavs would be funny. Michelle is a
:45:28. > :45:35.stand-up comedian. It's hard to where the line is,
:45:35. > :45:40.people are offended but it's funny? Yes, that's difficult.
:45:40. > :45:50.We tried a bit of Chav to see how people would handle it,
:45:50. > :45:51.
:45:51. > :45:55.so it was interesting. Let's have look.
:45:55. > :45:58.All right, so I am about to go on All right, so I am about to go on
:45:58. > :46:05.stage, I am pretty nervous because it's new material, I haven't
:46:05. > :46:10.it before and hopefully it goes down well. Please welcome on stage,
:46:10. > :46:14.Michelle de Swarte! To be honest, right, what I thought Chav meant was
:46:14. > :46:19.that your Mum was on benefits but you still had decent trainers, and I
:46:19. > :46:23.thought: sign me up. My mates call me a Chav anyway. Don't really
:46:23. > :46:30.matter. I wear all the same stuff as what a Chav does anyway so I'm not
:46:30. > :46:35.really bothered. I didn't realise this was some inside joke by the
:46:35. > :46:42.middle class. I am proud to be Chav. I went to talk to a mate who I
:46:42. > :46:50.considered to be a right Chav. I guess it's quite a derogatory term
:46:50. > :46:57.anyway and some would be offended. Are you offended by the term "Chav"?
:46:57. > :47:03.He goes: I'm not a Chav, but look at them Chavs. I don't think people
:47:03. > :47:07.use it as a derogatory term. Normally I don't even worry
:47:07. > :47:11.offending people but obviously when you are trying to do material for
:47:11. > :47:16.particular subject you do worry. I think it was definitely
:47:16. > :47:20.thought-provoking, and I have no tomatoes on me, so hopefully that's
:47:20. > :47:26.all it was, and I didn't actually offend anyone. APPLAUSE.
:47:27. > :47:31.Well done, Michelle. No tomatoes anywhere in sight. Rosy, you
:47:31. > :47:35.question? Yes, does the label "Chav" reflect society's
:47:35. > :47:41.demonisation of the working classes and the unemployed? What do you
:47:41. > :47:46.think then, Owen? You wrote the book on Chavs. It can do. It changes
:47:46. > :47:56.meaning depending on who is saying it and the context. Plan B has just
:47:56. > :47:57.
:47:57. > :48:02.done this great new track, and he said Chav used to stand for council
:48:02. > :48:10.housed and violent. Council housed and vulgar. There's a book called
:48:10. > :48:16.the little book of Chavs which goes through a few jobs: hairdressers,
:48:16. > :48:23.supermarkets; another book calls all kids on free school meals Chav kids.
:48:23. > :48:26.Another one, Chav towns, my home town Stockport gets a kicking and
:48:26. > :48:31.am afraid to say Doncaster doesn't come off much better. The entire
:48:31. > :48:36.town is written off as a Chav One of them says: there's a lack of
:48:36. > :48:43.real career opportunities which means that this town is a breeding
:48:43. > :48:48.ground for Chavs. It's this writing off of entire communities and it's
:48:48. > :48:54.class contempt. The tip of an iceberg. So more than just a
:48:54. > :49:02.slang? Yes, and I have always seen it as unfortunately quite a British
:49:02. > :49:12.trait. Somebody once said the Brits have great fondness for climbing
:49:12. > :49:12.
:49:13. > :49:17.ladders and kicking away the one we've just got above. People always
:49:17. > :49:24.cite things like wearing fake luxury brands and whatever, but people
:49:24. > :49:27.can't afford to buy thousand-pound dresses all the time. They shouldn't
:49:27. > :49:34.be looked down to because they would like to but it's a very
:49:34. > :49:38.thing. We sort of want to sneer. OK. Michelle? Caroline says it's
:49:38. > :49:43.insult so unless you are be insulted back, don't use it.
:49:43. > :49:47.fair point. Nicola, I'm interested to get your thoughts on this because
:49:47. > :49:56.Owen has said it's more than just a word, this is putting people in a
:49:56. > :50:04.class, demonising a certain section of society. I've heard Footballers'
:50:04. > :50:09.Wives being put in this category, posh and Becks aren't struggling for
:50:09. > :50:14.money. I have been called a Chav, I'm not offended by it, I have come
:50:14. > :50:21.from a council estate, I am married to a footballer, I did go into the
:50:21. > :50:28.jungle, I'm not offended by that. It is just a word and I would judge the
:50:28. > :50:35.person using it rather than people like me. Celebrities, Katie Price,
:50:35. > :50:40.Cheryl Cole gets called a Chav, what unites them is they are from
:50:40. > :50:46.working class backgrounds and people are saying if you start off
:50:46. > :50:50.you will always be trash. Working class people are never positively
:50:50. > :50:59.represented. For example, Vicky Pollard, this feckless single
:51:00. > :51:04.who swaps one of her kids for a Westlife CD, over 70% of people
:51:04. > :51:10.polled thought she was an accurate representation of white working
:51:10. > :51:13.class. People are almost airbrushed out of existence when demonised like
:51:13. > :51:18.that. But everyone laughed at that joke about Vicky Pollard.
:51:18. > :51:22.just a gag, isn't it? It depends who is laughing. At the end of the
:51:22. > :51:26.day, if there's a group of people out there that want to refer to
:51:26. > :51:29.themselves as Chavs, that's their prerogative, but me personally, I've
:51:29. > :51:34.never met anybody that introduced themselves to me as
:51:34. > :51:39.Chav so I prefer to address them as their name. I don't think a whole
:51:39. > :51:44.society of people should be put box and called Chavs just
:51:44. > :51:48.they are working class. APPLAUSE. And you've spoken out about the use
:51:48. > :51:53.of the N word in rap. That's not something you are comfortable with
:51:53. > :51:58.either? Definitely, it's the same kind of thing. The N word is derived
:51:58. > :52:02.from a much more morbid kind of background. There's a lot of deep
:52:02. > :52:08.history behind that word, but the word exists. So what a lot of
:52:08. > :52:13.people, particularly in America, you know I mean, amongst black
:52:13. > :52:19.communities, they've taken that word and turned it into a word of
:52:19. > :52:23.endear.. A lot of black people are offended by the use of that word
:52:24. > :52:27.at the end of the day there's a lot of other issues in the world. If
:52:27. > :52:32.your whole life is based on combating a word, a sound that comes
:52:32. > :52:37.out of somebody's mouth that exists then you've got quite a few mental
:52:37. > :52:42.issues. Michelle, it's that time again? Time for the moment of
:52:42. > :52:49.truth. Are you guys ready? Yeah? You are like: yeah, yeah, seem
:52:49. > :52:55.confident there, Owen. Let's fire up the Power Bar one last time. Well,
:52:55. > :53:00.Sway, you are a clear winner, getting ridiculous - and I have to
:53:00. > :53:06.say Nicola you are catching up. Not last at the end. Douglas, why
:53:06. > :53:11.think you are trailing there? do you think people online disagree
:53:11. > :53:14.with? I never know and never care actually. I would love to hear from
:53:14. > :53:21.people in the audience who have been called a Chav and how they feel
:53:21. > :53:26.about it. I am not afraid to say I'm from a council house. I
:53:26. > :53:33.count myself as a Chav, if other people do that is their opinion.
:53:33. > :53:39.It's people being judged on what they look like, how loud they play
:53:39. > :53:44.music. Does it represent people a certain area, being given
:53:44. > :53:47.name by the word Chav? I'm just trying to define what is working
:53:47. > :53:54.class. A Chav to me is somebody who is a bit of a scum, spitting,
:53:54. > :53:58.swearing, no respect for elders, members of general community. I read
:53:58. > :54:02.a poll on the internet, it was something that you mentioned, Owen,
:54:02. > :54:06.I think it was Chav towns or Chav protesters.Com and it said
:54:06. > :54:13.would you do if you were to see a Chav on a street corner and the
:54:13. > :54:18.majority vote which was 31% out of nearly 700 said that they would
:54:18. > :54:23.shoot the motherfucker. Ooh. is society, who is how we think.
:54:23. > :54:27.OK, apologies if people at home didn't like the language you used
:54:27. > :54:31.there but that's indicative this society of having a problem
:54:31. > :54:34.with the word Chav? Yes, and the point is it does mean different
:54:34. > :54:37.things to different people but if you are talking about people acting
:54:37. > :54:41.in a violent way, call them a thug. That
:54:41. > :54:45.That doesn't have the same association. Take, for example, the
:54:45. > :54:49.Bullingdon Club which our Prime Minister and current Mayor of
:54:49. > :54:55.London Boris Johnson used to be a member of. They used to smash things
:54:55. > :54:59.up, being drunken and they never got called a Chav. It was youthful high
:54:59. > :55:08.jinx. It's only ever applied to people of a certain background.
:55:08. > :55:14.That's the problem. Some comments online, Michelle? Yes, first things
:55:14. > :55:22.first, hashtag Free Speech is trending in a big way which I'm
:55:22. > :55:28.excited about. APPLAUSE. Marco says: I think it's pathetic, the way
:55:28. > :55:34.Chavs are portrayed. Another says: think it is a word used by the
:55:34. > :55:42.higher class to look down and degrade lower classes. Class war.
:55:42. > :55:48.Perhaps someone might look at someone like you, Douglas and say he
:55:48. > :55:54.is a toff, a posho. Would that offend you? No, I think you
:55:54. > :55:58.judge people by what they say, the way they say things. The point
:55:58. > :55:59.about Posh and Becks is interesting one. We are very
:56:00. > :56:04.unforgiving about people who successful in this country and even
:56:04. > :56:11.when they do really well like the Beckhams we want to find a way to
:56:11. > :56:15.get at them and feel better ourselves even when they go up. A
:56:15. > :56:21.terrible trait. People will be demonised by others at times.
:56:21. > :56:26.You can join us online any time in You can join us online any time in
:56:26. > :56:33.the next few weeks where you will find details of all our social media
:56:33. > :56:38.platforms. We are live in Bristol on May 16th. A round of applause for
:56:38. > :56:48.our panel and for our well. Here is Sway's new
:56:48. > :56:56.
:56:56. > :56:57.# Nice but naughty, shirts and # Nice but naughty, shirts and
:56:57. > :56:58.# Nice but naughty, shirts and dresses looking saucy