:00:06. > :00:14.The politicians, the commentators, and the experts have all had their
:00:14. > :00:18.television audience has theirs. Welcome to the Syria crisis - a
:00:18. > :00:22.special edition of Free Speech live Welcome to the Syria crisis - a
:00:22. > :00:53.on BBC3. People are under pressure Should charity not start at home?
:00:53. > :01:01.I am Rick Edwards, and an audience of 160 15 to 30-years-old are here
:01:01. > :01:05.in Stoke Newington Town Hall. People from this area, plus young Syrians
:01:05. > :01:09.who have left their country for London will tell us what they think.
:01:09. > :01:16.A very good evening to you. I want Twitter, and the BBC so that you can
:01:16. > :01:48.hashtag why or no followed by the name of a panellist each time you
:01:48. > :01:55.agree or disagree with them. Here is our panel whose job, in one sentence
:01:55. > :02:00.am Damien Green, the member of parliament for Ashford in Kent,
:02:00. > :02:02.am Damien Green, the member of criminal justice. I am here to
:02:02. > :02:11.support free speech because that's one of the key aspects of freedom in
:02:11. > :02:15.I am Mehdi Hasan, the political director of the huffing tonne Post
:02:15. > :02:20.UK. I am worried we're about to embroil ourselves in another crazy
:02:20. > :02:25.Middle East war. My name is Shami Chakrabarti. I am the director of
:02:25. > :02:28.Liberty, the National Council for Civil Liberties, this country's
:02:28. > :02:34.domestic campaign for human rights for everybody. My name is Milo
:02:34. > :02:35.Yiannopoulos, an online technology magazine. I believe in order to
:02:35. > :02:43.maintain free speech, we should magazine. I believe in order to
:02:43. > :02:49.into Syria. I am malmalmal, a Labour MP. I believe that we don't hear the
:02:49. > :02:53.voices of young people enough in society and in our politics. I think
:02:53. > :03:28.elements of Al-Qaeda. Here, David Cameron's - President Obama said he
:03:28. > :03:41.wants to carry out limited and targeted bombing. Suddenly, there's
:03:41. > :03:52.One of the most abhorrent uses of chemical weapons in a century.
:03:52. > :03:56.This menace must be confronted. I strongly believe in the need for a
:03:56. > :04:10.chemical weapons. I happen to think are voting now on whether Britain
:04:10. > :04:17.military strike against Syria. The ayes to the right, 272; the noes to
:04:17. > :04:43.second-class silt 70le. Like we don't matter. The whole world has
:04:43. > :04:47.failed our nation. Kimberley has a question. Where is Kimberley? What
:04:47. > :04:52.would you like to ask? Do you think against military action? Let's start
:04:52. > :04:57.with you, please, Sima. What is against military action? Let's start
:04:57. > :05:00.answer to that? I happen to think that the vote was right last week. I
:05:00. > :05:01.don't think that we were ready to make a decision about going to war
:05:01. > :05:07.in that way in this country. To make a decision about going to war
:05:07. > :05:12.a decision like that made with MPs coming from wherever they were
:05:12. > :05:16.across the world, to make a decision without putting the evidence even in
:05:16. > :05:17.front of MPs, let alone in front of the public, to have evidence that
:05:17. > :05:32.was just dripping through in the the public, to have evidence that
:05:33. > :05:57.this importance absolutely deserves. of Iraq, not because Iraq and Syria
:05:57. > :05:58.this importance absolutely deserves. Milo, do you agree with that? No.
:05:58. > :06:00.this importance absolutely deserves. It's disturbing and irresponsible.
:06:00. > :06:02.We have to do something about Syria. This was a vote on principle, it
:06:02. > :06:07.wasn't the vote direct of which This was a vote on principle, it
:06:07. > :06:09.intervention. I don't believe a This was a vote on principle, it
:06:09. > :06:13.of Labour MPs when they talk on This was a vote on principle, it
:06:13. > :06:19.subject. A lot are in a difficult position created by their leader
:06:19. > :06:26.posturing which not only costs internationally. More importantly
:06:26. > :06:29.contributed to the humanitarian crisis in Syria, and we are standing
:06:30. > :06:32.by allowing the situation to get worse when we should be making a
:06:32. > :06:36.stand against somebody who is using chemical weapons on his own people,
:06:36. > :06:40.a red line that should never be crossed. By sitting by and allowing
:06:40. > :06:48.him to do that to his own people, disreputableness from Labour is
:06:48. > :06:53.really shocking to me. Two very differing points of view there.
:06:53. > :06:55.really shocking to me. Two very do you say to that, Sir? I would
:06:55. > :07:04.like to address the fact that no-one seems to say anything when Israel is
:07:04. > :07:08.assumed to be using white phosforuos on Palestinians. I think it's really
:07:08. > :07:11.important there's an intervention, but it is almost as if this country
:07:11. > :07:17.intervention. What I would like but it is almost as if this country
:07:18. > :07:22.know is there any financial gain for this country by going to war? If so,
:07:22. > :07:28.and the reasons for going to war are financial, then we should stay out
:07:28. > :07:33.of Syria. Damien, I guess you're best placed to answer that. I rather
:07:33. > :07:35.agree with what Milo said. The first thing is that this is not about
:07:35. > :07:40.money or making money, it is about a thing is that this is not about
:07:40. > :07:43.money or making money, it is about a government in Syria that bombs its
:07:43. > :07:55.own people with chemical weapons, which have been illegal for nearly
:07:55. > :08:19.its own people is therefore uniquely it. Parliament decided what it did,
:08:19. > :08:23.its own people is therefore uniquely in the diplomatic severe. Mostly,
:08:23. > :08:24.its own people is therefore uniquely other country some of the 2 million
:08:24. > :08:28.refugees that have been forced out of their own country and are now
:08:28. > :08:32.living in misery on the Syrian there is a lot that Britain can
:08:32. > :08:35.living in misery on the Syrian and is doing to try and relieve
:08:35. > :08:41.living in misery on the Syrian of the misery of this terrible
:08:41. > :08:45.situation. I disagree with your statement that it is not a financial
:08:45. > :09:02.gain to invade into Syria because if business. To even fund it, it is a
:09:02. > :09:06.business. If there isn't any sort of financial gain, why is it that we
:09:06. > :09:10.didn't intervene in previous wars? Why have we been kept in the dark
:09:10. > :09:18.about our gain what we would gain from going into Syria? Why are we
:09:18. > :09:22.Obviously, this is getting people going. Are people similarly engaged
:09:22. > :09:23.online? Yes, we have had a huge response. Thousands of messages
:09:23. > :09:29.coming in, so we've been asking response. Thousands of messages
:09:29. > :09:32.intervene in other countries in conflict? Kerry says, talking about
:09:32. > :09:34.military intervention, yes, it is, but we need a proper plan and the
:09:34. > :16:17.You're Syrian. How do you feel about this? I feel ashamed to be British
:16:17. > :16:23.at this time. Considering that we know over 100,000 people have been
:16:23. > :16:25.refugees, and we carry on, we talk about, "We're helping the refugees",
:16:25. > :16:28.do you know what? The situation about, "We're helping the refugees",
:16:28. > :16:36.only going to get worse. We've something, okay? The political talk
:16:36. > :16:38.that we've been doing for the past three years hasn't helped. Has it
:16:38. > :16:43.helped? Has it stopped the killing? No, it hasn't. The situation has
:16:43. > :16:50.only escalated. So what other option do we have at this point in time
:16:50. > :17:00.haven't got another option, the political solution is not working,
:17:00. > :17:03.actually got? Seema? I totally hear what you are saying because I can't
:17:03. > :17:06.agree with that right now because I don't think we've put enough effort
:17:06. > :17:08.into the peace process. There needs to be a road map to peace as well,
:17:08. > :17:12.and it is true that the efforts to be a road map to peace as well,
:17:13. > :17:15.far have not succeeded. It is also true that the opposition forces
:17:15. > :17:19.haven't come to the table, but that doesn't mean that there isn't an
:17:19. > :17:23.opportunity to look to a diplomatic answer to this. The only way the war
:17:23. > :17:28.is going to end in Syria is with can have a military action that
:17:28. > :17:33.makes us feel like we did something, but what are you going to do with
:17:33. > :17:39.you going to really say we're going and let Syria disintegrate. You
:17:39. > :17:42.you going to really say we're going to have something bigger than the
:17:42. > :17:45.military action. What we do know has changed is that undenial use of
:17:45. > :17:49.chemical weapons. There are still going to be a question that the
:17:49. > :17:55.with, but in no way way should read international community have to
:17:55. > :17:59.with, but in no way way should read parliament's vote last week as
:18:00. > :18:19.platitudes and contradictions from intervene in whichever way we can,
:18:19. > :18:20.platitudes and contradictions from my right. You say we should have
:18:20. > :18:25.investigated diplomatic solutions, yet you admit the rebels haven't
:18:25. > :18:33.come to the table. No, I disagree It's difficult to negotiate with one
:18:33. > :18:37.party. I disagree with you. If a mean that you don't keep going. Do
:18:37. > :18:39.you agree or do you disagree that the rebels have refused to even
:18:39. > :18:43.contemplate - and, in any case, the rebels have refused to even
:18:43. > :18:48.would you approach, by the way, because this is an organisation
:18:48. > :18:51.would you approach, by the way, a figurehead, this is a coalition.
:18:51. > :18:54.Who exactly are are you going to negotiate with? That's why you need
:18:54. > :18:57.a different strategy. That's why it is right that the Foreign Secretary
:18:57. > :19:02.is meeting the Syrian national coalition. Will you give Al-Qaeda a
:19:02. > :19:03.call - If you let me finish, what also happened today was Douglas
:19:03. > :19:08.Secretary, talking about having also happened today was Douglas
:19:08. > :19:11.Syrian contact group. Now, you need a way in which people are going
:19:11. > :19:12.Syrian contact group. Now, you need come to the table and people who are
:19:12. > :19:15.part of that dialogue are given come to the table and people who are
:19:15. > :19:18.part to be part of that dialogue. They speak for the majority in
:19:18. > :19:23.Syria. In a sense, we need to work out a way that is going to reduce
:19:23. > :19:26.forward, and it is going to lead to an end to the civil war. It's not
:19:26. > :19:29.convincing that a military strike without an overall plan is going to
:19:29. > :19:34.achieve that. You could make that worse. What would you do - Your
:19:34. > :19:38.strategy has made it worse, made it failed. Your strategy of waiting has
:19:38. > :19:41.meant that Assad has used chemical weapons against his own people.
:19:41. > :19:45.That's what your strategy of waiting has accomplished. Why did it happen
:19:45. > :19:48.14 times before last week? It should have been on the agenda of earlier
:19:48. > :19:51.than the way it is now. But I think what is really significant today is
:19:51. > :19:58.about Russia. Russia is saying on the eve of the G230, which I think
:19:58. > :20:01.is a -- G20, which has exposed Russia's position now, which was
:20:01. > :20:05.fundamental to solving this crisis, Assad. In terms of those going to
:20:05. > :20:08.put pressure on Assad, in terms Assad. In terms of those going to
:20:08. > :20:13.those bringing other forces to the responsibility seriously. If that
:20:13. > :20:14.those bringing other forces to the has been achieved as a result of
:20:14. > :20:37.think we have to keep the pressure last week, I think that is something
:20:37. > :20:54.think we have to keep the pressure countryside of Damascus, until
:20:54. > :21:04.women, children, old people. Can I ask please, when we stop Assad
:21:04. > :21:11.killing people in Syria? If you remember, from 1933 to 1945, and
:21:11. > :21:16.especially from 1941 to 1945, there were 6 million Jews died in Europe.
:21:16. > :21:28.So do we need this time now waiting for about 6 million people Syrian
:21:28. > :21:32.central question. What can we do to stop it happening? It is easy to
:21:32. > :21:35.emotional. I get emotional about it. I get really angry and horrified at
:21:35. > :21:39.the site of babies and children I get really angry and horrified at
:21:39. > :21:44.have been attacked by chemical weapons. Any reasonable humaning
:21:44. > :21:48.would. I think the one point would make any kind of military strike,
:21:48. > :21:56.and it is not an invasion but a military strike, is that that would
:21:56. > :22:01.particular, he would know that it is continuing to kill his own people,
:22:01. > :22:13.as he has done, has consequences for him and for his armed forces. One of
:22:13. > :22:18.the powerful arguments made in favour last week. Proposal that
:22:18. > :22:20.the powerful arguments made in defeated was precisely that, that if
:22:20. > :22:24.we don't do this, it is all words, there is no pressure on asaid, and
:22:24. > :22:29.all the evidence is that he will continue on killing if he can get
:22:29. > :22:37.another vote, Damien? We said there is no point having another vote
:22:37. > :22:38.another vote, Damien? We said there sensible way forward. You have a
:22:38. > :22:56.vote in parliament, so you have sensible way forward. You have a
:22:57. > :23:00.him, he will immediately start doing what he's told. I don't buy that
:23:00. > :23:05.him, he will immediately start doing logic. The more likely outcome is
:23:05. > :23:10.violence. If he fires chemical What would you do? Either have the
:23:10. > :23:17.invade, remove him from power - What would you do? Either have the
:23:17. > :23:22.something I support - or you say you call for a diplomatic route, call
:23:22. > :23:26.for a ceasefire to reduce civilian casualties. But this half-way house
:23:26. > :23:31.where you drop bombs over a weekend. Where's the evidence that he will
:23:31. > :23:36.suddenly cower and say, "I won't do anything again because you dropped a
:23:36. > :23:40.There's nothing I've heard in this debate so far this evening that
:23:40. > :23:46.makes me think anything speaking in bad faith or that anybody has got
:23:46. > :23:56.dubious motives. This is really hard. Yes, the evidence is emerging
:23:56. > :24:00.don't think the evidence base is what it was with Iraq, but there is
:24:00. > :24:07.the practicality, and you have to atrocities on one side. Yes, what
:24:07. > :24:11.Mehdi is alluding to might we make it worse, or might we not make it
:24:11. > :24:16.better? That's painful to admit sometimes when you won't necessarily
:24:16. > :24:18.be able to make things better and you're watching those pictures on
:24:18. > :24:22.the Newsnight after night. But, nonetheless, I think that if you
:24:22. > :24:23.look at public opinion, if you look at some of the polling, people are
:24:23. > :24:26.worried abouting stung again on at some of the polling, people are
:24:26. > :24:29.fronts, either that they'ring lied to - I think they're noting lied to
:24:29. > :24:40.this time which is my own view, to - I think they're noting lied to
:24:40. > :24:47.want to find themselves embroiled in a war, sending people like you lot
:24:47. > :24:50.maybe we don't make it better. That's were Seema's point about
:24:50. > :24:52.bringing new countries around the table, because part of making it
:24:52. > :24:56.better and not making it worse is about saying it's not just Britain
:24:56. > :24:59.and America this time, that there is going to be genuine multilateralism
:24:59. > :25:08.in the international community, on the world stage. Yes, in the
:25:08. > :25:22.meantime, you're talking, and people are dying, and that is so painful,
:25:22. > :25:24.similarities between Syria and Afghanistan because Russia was in
:25:24. > :25:44.and the Mujahadin was supported Afghanistan because Russia was in
:25:44. > :25:49.however, it's a murder. Who is giving - we must n forget who gave
:25:49. > :25:58.the chemical weapons to Syria. There is a report that says the UK allowed
:25:58. > :26:04.i. Americans are giving Egypt to the Egyptians to kill its own people. We
:26:04. > :26:08.say nothing. There's been countless polls in the media about whether the
:26:08. > :26:12.UK government should take military action against Syria, and the and
:26:12. > :26:19.the overwhelming majority of public opinion is no, we should not go
:26:19. > :26:22.there and take military action. Considering David Cameron likes
:26:22. > :26:24.there and take military action. brand the Syrian government as a
:26:24. > :26:29.government that goes against the will of its own people, if the UK
:26:29. > :26:32.does that, can we brand the UK regime as a government that goes
:26:32. > :26:37.against the will of the British That's why we have a parliament
:26:37. > :26:41.against the will of the British this country, we had a parliamentary
:26:41. > :26:46.vote, parliament said no, so, we're not taking military action. That's
:26:46. > :26:49.convinced that - I agree with you about the polling, and I think we
:26:49. > :26:54.can tell from even people in this room that people are very, very
:26:54. > :27:00.very cautious, and I share that caution. But I don't think that
:27:00. > :27:03.people are pacifists on principle: I don't think public opinion is such
:27:03. > :27:08.as to suggest that people would never go to war in Syria, or they
:27:08. > :27:11.would never go for humanitarian intervention. You're right that
:27:11. > :27:15.would never go for humanitarian well has been poise beyond, like the
:27:15. > :27:22.government has cried wolf too many times and when there is a clear
:27:22. > :27:23.government has cried wolf too many the - I think the public are ahead
:27:23. > :27:28.of the politicians here and asking questions. What do we day after
:27:28. > :27:36.of the politicians here and asking drop the bomb or after Al-Qaeda
:27:36. > :27:37.government in the Commons. I think that's unfair because what everyone
:27:37. > :27:41.in the Commons was given, I am that's unfair because what everyone
:27:41. > :27:58.intelligence reports because that's surprised there hasn't been more
:27:58. > :28:13.evidence is that that is the case, David Cameron made the point as
:28:13. > :28:13.evidence is that that is the case, honest debate you can have in good
:28:13. > :28:16.faith. The chemical weapons issue is honest debate you can have in good
:28:16. > :28:21.almost a red herring. It's killed 100,000 Syrians that have done.
:28:21. > :28:26.almost a red herring. It's killed we saying if he doesn't use chemical
:28:26. > :28:34.weapons it's fine? The only issue - chemical weapons. As you all know,
:28:34. > :28:37.instrument of war, they are an instrument of ey are an instrument
:28:37. > :28:44.of terror. . Does dropping bombs make the situation better or was --
:28:44. > :28:53.worse. Some of us thinks it makes the war run longer, it exacerbates
:28:53. > :28:58.chemical weapons or not. Chemical illegal. I wish the Tory government
:28:58. > :28:59.had done something in 1988 when Saddam was gassing his people when
:28:59. > :29:04.they turned a blind eye to that Saddam was gassing his people when
:29:04. > :29:08.You talk about red lines... . A question from this gentleman here?
:29:08. > :29:12.I've got a question for Seema and Mehdi. Chemical weapons have been
:29:13. > :29:20.illegal for 100 years, Obama drew a red line three years ago. When does
:29:20. > :29:31.the diplomacy stop? When do we accept it doesn't work. When does
:29:31. > :29:34.question. I asked you a question. Chemical weapons have been illegal
:29:34. > :29:37.for 100 years. I will answer his question, and I will answer your
:29:37. > :29:45.laugh as well. There hasn't been a Americans postponed it twice in
:29:45. > :29:47.laugh as well. There hasn't been a and in August. That's a fact. You
:29:47. > :29:52.can go and look that up. The fact about diplomacy is I am not saying
:29:52. > :29:56.solutions in Syria. My only point is do you do something to pour fuel on
:29:56. > :29:58.the fire or pour water on the fire. I would try and pour water on the
:29:58. > :30:02.fire. It may not put the fire out, I would try and pour water on the
:30:02. > :30:06.but it's better than pouring fuel on the fire. What are people at Somme
:30:06. > :30:46.Probably a good time to see what is happening with the power bar at
:30:46. > :30:52.Probably a good time to see what is Ore, you have a question? Has the UK
:30:52. > :30:58.gone down in the world'sestation after deciding not to intervene
:30:58. > :31:01.gone down in the world'sestation Syria. I hate that question. I don't
:31:01. > :31:09.hate you but I hate the question. I don't give a monkey's how you appear
:31:09. > :31:13.on the world stage. I really don't. You know that our international
:31:13. > :31:15.reputation affects our ability to negotiate for peace, it affects
:31:15. > :31:17.reputation affects our ability to sorts of things. Our standing in the
:31:17. > :31:21.world isn't just a question of who we can get to launch planes with us,
:31:21. > :31:25.but you know perfectly well that our standing in the world affects our
:31:25. > :31:29.ability to peacefully - Then I agree with the minister. If that is the
:31:29. > :31:33.case, I will agree with the minister that our standing as the oldest
:31:34. > :31:39.unbroken democracy on earth is not undermined by having a parliamentary
:31:39. > :31:41.respecting it, so there may be another vote in the future, the
:31:41. > :31:46.picture may change, but I am never going to say that our standing as a
:31:46. > :31:51.great democracy is affected by having democracy and respecting
:31:51. > :31:55.great democracy is affected by If winning a global league table on
:31:55. > :32:01.countries, then that's not a league table I want to be at the top of. I
:32:01. > :32:04.would rather have democracy via table I want to be at the top of. I
:32:04. > :32:08.vote in the Commons, ministers come here to talk to the public, for
:32:09. > :32:10.vote in the Commons, ministers come climate change. I would argue that
:32:10. > :32:15.our role in the world, our status has probably gone up after last
:32:15. > :32:17.our role in the world, our status because because forget what foreign
:32:17. > :32:26.governments think, what do peoples Afghanistan, Iraq, and turning a
:32:26. > :32:35.blind eye by the human rights abuses standing, not going to war with
:32:35. > :32:37.whatever American government decides to do at which weekend. I don't
:32:38. > :32:41.think that should be a factor. I have to agree with Shami on this
:32:42. > :32:45.one. I think it was so important to go through that protest last week,
:32:45. > :32:48.all the questions can remain about whether it was right to recall on
:32:48. > :33:17.Thursday, whether we could have even if is against the odds? Could
:33:17. > :33:23.difference than going to war right conversation. I don't think it's
:33:23. > :33:29.world. Maybe we are in a slightly different phase now where we are
:33:29. > :33:34.diversity, a different number of interventions. Let's have that
:33:34. > :33:38.conversation, continue to work, continue to look at the evidence,
:33:38. > :33:43.but let's focus on Syria and focus on the best way to end the civil
:33:43. > :33:48.war. Do you agree with that? I agree with a lot of that. It is too early
:33:48. > :33:54.to tell. I I agree what is more important is what is to happen to
:33:54. > :33:59.reputation. It will change. If we continue to play a constructive
:33:59. > :34:00.reputation. It will change. If we in this crisis and in other crises,
:34:00. > :34:07.and we learn from mistakes made in this crisis and in other crises,
:34:07. > :34:09.the past about the lies Blair about Iraq, and it does matter what our
:34:09. > :34:12.standing in the world is. If we Iraq, and it does matter what our
:34:12. > :34:15.a voice people listen to, because we are a democracy, because we have
:34:15. > :34:20.freedoms and free speech, then that's good, because the more the
:34:20. > :34:25.world is like that, then the happier Online comments, please? Lots of
:34:25. > :34:29.people online are talking about Online comments, please? Lots of
:34:30. > :34:47.Tonight, in Washington, the foreign military action against Syria. This
:34:47. > :34:57.is what President Obama said about I think America also recognises
:34:57. > :35:06.is what President Obama said about if the international community
:35:06. > :35:07.is what President Obama said about countries interact and how people
:35:07. > :35:22.talking of a possible war that can countries interact and how people
:35:22. > :35:33.talking of a possible war that can be happening. We're forgetting there
:35:33. > :35:34.talking of a possible war that can understand what evidence we need.
:35:34. > :35:41.Then you've got people dying in understand what evidence we need.
:35:41. > :35:45.the most brutal ways, and we can talk chemical weapons. I don't know
:35:45. > :35:48.why it's taken us two and a half years to realise that maybe the
:35:48. > :35:50.why it's taken us two and a half line should be drawn for chemical
:35:50. > :35:54.weapons when this is the 14th time that chemical weapons have been
:35:54. > :35:58.used, and you have to understand that there is really brutal methods
:35:58. > :36:04.of killing and slaughtering in government like stabbing, knives and
:36:04. > :36:08.people's necks and leaving them government like stabbing, knives and
:36:08. > :36:12.die, but suddenly chemicals weapons is a red line. I don't understand
:36:12. > :36:18.why it is a red line and other sort of killing is a red line. It's just,
:36:18. > :36:32.you know, like this red line that we have drawn is just, it has no basis,
:36:32. > :36:37.I want to re-ask the question that was asked to the Defence Minister in
:36:37. > :36:42.parliament after the - the day after the vote got through, asked by the
:36:42. > :36:46.Labour MP, and it was scoffed at: under what circumstances would
:36:46. > :36:53.Britain be prepared to relook at circumstances could it go back into
:36:53. > :36:56.parliament a second time? Philip Hammond replied if there was a
:36:56. > :37:00.significant change in the situation. Oddly enough, I think for all the
:37:00. > :37:07.arguments, actually there's quite a lot of consensus around that. That,
:37:07. > :37:11.whether it was new evidence of bad behaviour, or evidence of what has
:37:11. > :37:16.already gone, it would have to be a significant change rather than we
:37:16. > :37:21.returning and having the same debate again and again. I don't think that
:37:21. > :37:23.would help anyone. It could be new evidence on the practicalities and
:37:23. > :37:31.the potential effectiveness of action. It could be new evidence
:37:31. > :37:35.international conversations that are working or not working, so that
:37:35. > :37:40.there is more of a plan. It could be international support. There are all
:37:40. > :37:49.Forgive me, minister, it will be a international support. There are all
:37:49. > :37:50.Forgive me, minister, it will be a debate in parliament. I am going to
:37:50. > :37:54.have to go and find out what people debate in parliament. I am going to
:37:54. > :38:27.be an international decision through the UN. That's what the UN is for,
:38:27. > :38:29.Shami is catching up. Damien and Milo still struggling, I'm afraid.
:38:29. > :38:33.You can influence the power bar Milo still struggling, I'm afraid.
:38:33. > :38:44.Get on Twitter right now and tell our panellists what you think of
:38:44. > :38:47.It's been the first time that people have had their say on television
:38:47. > :38:51.about Syria. Thanks for all of your comments. Now we're going to change
:38:51. > :38:55.subject. For a big issue here in Hackney: stop and search, one of the
:38:55. > :38:56.most controversial ways that the police combat crime. Controversial
:38:56. > :39:00.as black people are seven times police combat crime. Controversial
:39:00. > :39:05.likely to be stopped and searched than white, and of million searches
:39:05. > :39:12.last year, only nine per cent led to running a public consultation this
:39:12. > :39:16.month. In Hackney, stop and search numbers are falling, but are still a
:39:16. > :39:24.cause for concern. Here is Kenny's My name is Kenny. I 19 years old. I
:39:24. > :39:28.was born in raised in Hackney. I am a civil servant working in financial
:39:28. > :39:31.services. Hackney is a nice place. You know, it's better. It's very
:39:31. > :39:35.vibrant. It obviously still has You know, it's better. It's very
:39:35. > :39:39.ups and downs. The relationship between police and youth is not
:39:40. > :39:42.ups and downs. The relationship I couldn't even tell you the amount
:39:42. > :39:47.of times I used to get stopped and searched. It brought me to distress.
:39:48. > :39:51.I don't agree toing stopped and searched numerous times because
:39:51. > :39:53.I don't agree toing stopped and the clothes you're wearing, in a
:39:53. > :39:56.certain Ayr, or maybe even the colour of skin. It wasn't fair.
:39:56. > :40:08.certain Ayr, or maybe even the didn't want people to feel the
:40:08. > :40:14.certain Ayr, or maybe even the affects the community. What would
:40:14. > :40:20.certain Ayr, or maybe even the I amming stopped in public, I was
:40:21. > :40:30.you're a criminal because police are outside the front of my house, it's
:40:30. > :40:46.like, "Are you lost, mate?" I was, look suspicious around this area - I
:40:46. > :40:48.is going. Stop and search should be for intelligence-led to get knives
:40:48. > :40:53.off the street. A lot more needs to be done. Before we take a question,
:40:53. > :40:55.I would like to bring this Matthew Horne who is the borough Commander
:40:55. > :41:00.for Hackney. What would you say Horne who is the borough Commander
:41:00. > :41:05.Kenny? I would say the great work that's been done has helped us bring
:41:05. > :41:08.stop and search and the amount of time bring it down. In Hackney,
:41:08. > :41:10.stop and search and the amount of is a very different picture as it is
:41:10. > :41:16.across London. We've halved the is a very different picture as it is
:41:16. > :41:20.of stop and search, doubled nearly the times it is a positive outcock -
:41:20. > :41:23.someone is arrested. We're not always going to get it right, but we
:41:23. > :41:28.get it right more times than we don't, so last year, we arrested
:41:28. > :41:32.5,000 more people the year before as a result of stop and search. It
:41:32. > :41:33.5,000 more people the year before as an incredibly useful power. It has
:41:33. > :41:38.to be used proportionately, and an incredibly useful power. It has
:41:38. > :41:42.it have to have to be used with respect and politeness? That's where
:41:42. > :41:47.I believe we've got there better. We've got a long way to go, but
:41:47. > :41:54.I believe we've got there better. goodness, have we improved. The
:41:54. > :41:54.I believe we've got there better. we've done with people like - the
:41:54. > :41:58.last thing I would say that the we've done with people like - the
:41:58. > :42:02.majority of people that engage in stop and search in every public
:42:02. > :42:04.meeting I go to, most people want the power to stay. We welcome the
:42:04. > :42:07.government's slayings. We think the power to stay. We welcome the
:42:07. > :42:11.is a great idea. Most people want it to stay but they do want us to get
:42:11. > :42:16.better at it and they want us to be respect, and they're absolutely
:42:16. > :42:24.right to respect that. Kenny, you've got a question? Is stop and search
:42:24. > :42:28.Damien, is stop and search helping helping or hurting the community?
:42:28. > :42:31.Damien, is stop and search helping or harming communities? If it is
:42:32. > :42:38.used badly, then it can harm, as the Commander just said. It is a useful
:42:38. > :42:48.then far more people are arrested, everyone you're a bit suspicious of,
:42:48. > :42:52.then far more people are arrested, you're seven times more likely if to
:42:52. > :43:10.43 different police forces and it be stopped and searched if you
:43:10. > :43:15.43 different police forces and it cent. Clearly, some police forces
:43:15. > :43:20.others, and the Met has indeed got a lot better, there is a hell of a lot
:43:20. > :43:24.holding this public consultation, and also a direct interest to a
:43:24. > :43:26.holding this public consultation, of people here, we extended it.
:43:26. > :43:30.holding this public consultation, was going to be six weeks. It's
:43:30. > :43:30.holding this public consultation, there's still time for people to
:43:30. > :43:35.take part in this consultation, there's still time for people to
:43:35. > :43:39.we want to keep the stop and search power, but absolutely, we want it to
:43:39. > :43:46.be used better than it has in the cohesion, community respect and
:43:46. > :43:49.be used better than it has in the on rather than in a way it's too
:43:49. > :43:52.often been used in the past. Shami, consultation? I certainly welcome
:43:52. > :43:55.the consultation, but I want to consultation? I certainly welcome
:43:55. > :43:59.clear, this is a lot easier than Syria. The law needs to be tightened
:43:59. > :44:08.up. I do not accept that the current useful. I think they are poisonous.
:44:09. > :44:14.communities. There are young men that that I men -- there are young
:44:14. > :44:17.men I meet in schools in inner London and inner cities whose first
:44:17. > :44:22.engagements with the police are through stop and search. It is a
:44:22. > :44:28.poisoning of people far more people than protecting. There are two kinds
:44:28. > :44:31.of stop and search that I will approve of.One is when you go to the
:44:31. > :44:38.airport or when you go to parliament and everybody is being stopped and
:44:38. > :44:40.high-security place that everybody understands they're not picking
:44:40. > :44:44.high-security place that everybody me because I am black, because I am
:44:44. > :44:50.campaigner, everybody is going proportionality of doing that for
:44:50. > :44:54.example at the airport or when you go to visit your MP. The second
:44:54. > :44:58.example at the airport or when you of stop and search I'll approve
:44:58. > :45:00.example at the airport or when you reasonable suspicion that you have
:45:00. > :45:03.committed an offence or you might be going to commit an offence, but
:45:03. > :45:29.that's not the powers that we are young black men who are having their
:45:29. > :45:37.criminal. You say that occasionally experience of authority and policing
:45:37. > :45:38.criminal. You say that occasionally people get charged. How many of
:45:38. > :45:44.those people get convicted? The people get charged. How many of
:45:44. > :45:47.needs to be - credit to the officer, and credit to the police who have
:45:47. > :45:53.understood in recent years that these powers are too broad, and
:45:53. > :45:53.understood in recent years that self-censored, started using the
:45:53. > :45:59.power less, but the power needs self-censored, started using the
:45:59. > :46:03.minister and on Seema, these are legislators to tighten up those
:46:03. > :46:12.reasonable suspicion and are not capable of being used in such an
:46:12. > :46:17.I would like to appoint the question believe if you're young, if you
:46:17. > :46:19.I would like to appoint the question black, if you wear a hoody, that you
:46:19. > :46:24.are a thief, and we have seen that continue to happen. We don't.You
:46:24. > :46:29.haven't made a change. I think you should maybe go to that referral and
:46:29. > :46:31.look at alternative methods because stop and search is degrading as
:46:31. > :46:34.look at alternative methods because humaning. To think that you look
:46:34. > :46:38.like a thief is a slap in the face. This government is endorsing that.
:46:38. > :46:42.They're not changing that. David Cameron doesn't care if war walking
:46:42. > :46:46.down the street, if you're wearing a hoody, black, or young. He doesn't
:46:46. > :46:52.care. What does he know? What does he know? Tell me. Can I come in
:46:52. > :46:53.care. What does he know? What does defend Damien on this. It is his
:46:53. > :46:56.government and a Conservative home secretary who have called for this
:46:56. > :47:07.review into this, and the record," but the thing is nothing is going to
:47:07. > :47:11.change. What was it their on said, "I asked the police what powers
:47:11. > :47:17.change. What was it their on said, want, and I give it to them." That
:47:17. > :47:19.alternatives. Which government has looked at alternatives? This one.
:47:19. > :47:23.You're not doing anything. Even looked at alternatives? This one.
:47:23. > :47:25.after this. We started in judgment. looked at alternatives? This one.
:47:25. > :47:32.It's going to end in three weeks' consultation, please. People wearing
:47:32. > :47:33.hoodies don't feel safe in your government. We are voting you in and
:47:33. > :47:39.to talk afterwards. This gentleman government. We are voting you in and
:47:39. > :47:43.here in a cap. I was going to say that I think that we are kind of all
:47:43. > :47:54.getting the whole thing totally misunderstood because at the end of
:47:54. > :47:59.stereotypes, and stereotypes are set by the media as what we call a moral
:47:59. > :48:11.panic. Now, part of me doesn't necessarily blame police for the
:48:11. > :48:15.panic. Now, part of me doesn't portrayed in the media, so I think
:48:15. > :48:20.what we need to do to improve stop and search is initially challenge
:48:20. > :48:27.the perception of young black men, especially, because - APPLAUSE
:48:27. > :48:32.you go to Google right now and w and write in "police stop and search",
:48:32. > :48:38.the first five pages are all young black men. I done it today just
:48:38. > :48:40.the first five pages are all young see. The first five pages on Google
:48:40. > :48:48.images. If you get a chance doing it, young black men getting stopped
:48:48. > :48:54.believes this stop and search is them. Until we can challenge the
:48:54. > :48:57.supported which by the media, where people come from, we're going to
:48:57. > :49:01.continue to be in this negative cycle where at the end of the day,
:49:01. > :49:03.the police are just a representation of the society. The society as a
:49:03. > :49:08.whole believes that young black of the society. The society as a
:49:08. > :49:10.in particular are the ones that of the society. The society as a
:49:10. > :49:14.causing problems, it's going to of the society. The society as a
:49:14. > :49:19.It's an issue of perception. Let's start with an unpopular point what
:49:19. > :49:23.some people call stereotypes, other people might call statistical fact.
:49:23. > :49:31.It is simply true - Please, hello. It's simply true that certain crimes
:49:31. > :49:38.are committed by certain profiles of people. What we need to fix is
:49:38. > :49:43.education, and we need to do some really systemic work to support
:49:43. > :49:44.communities in under-privileged areas in the country. We do need at
:49:44. > :49:47.the same time to find a balance areas in the country. We do need at
:49:47. > :49:51.protect the victims of crime as well. I am not supporting these
:49:51. > :49:53.indiscriminate stop and search things, but when we get caught up
:49:53. > :49:58.and carried away with this idea things, but when we get caught up
:49:58. > :50:02.scare stories, you know, that goes a little bit far, and it simply is
:50:02. > :50:30.true to say that certain crimes overwhelmingly committed by certain
:50:30. > :50:37.true to say that certain crimes love me, but I can change the law to
:50:37. > :50:39.are too broad. We should have stop and search powers triggered by
:50:39. > :50:42.reasonable suspicion that somebody has committed an offence or about to
:50:42. > :50:47.be committing an offence. We should not have the broad loose powers
:50:47. > :50:49.be committing an offence. We should stop anybody you like because they
:50:49. > :50:54.live on that council estate. That's not good enough for people in their
:50:54. > :51:18.country estates, and it's not good enough people for inner cities in my
:51:19. > :51:22.disagree get in touch with APPLAUSE I wouldn't have a problem with that
:51:22. > :51:26.for the same reason I don't have a problem with racial profiling at
:51:26. > :51:29.airports, I don't have a problem with certain kinds of stop and
:51:29. > :51:32.search, and I would be delight today see some of these guys pulled over
:51:32. > :51:34.and searched on their laptops as well. The reason I wanted to respond
:51:34. > :51:40.to this, the reason I am saying well. The reason I wanted to respond
:51:40. > :51:44.is a moral panic, is simple, young people are responsible for less
:51:44. > :51:47.is a moral panic, is simple, young 12 per cent of all violent crime in
:51:47. > :51:53.last year's police statistics. If they're responsible for less than 12
:51:53. > :52:01.cent people of their time talking believe the situation is worse than
:52:01. > :52:05.it actually is. I am looking forward to seeing Milo's popularity bar
:52:05. > :52:10.after that. How many times have to seeing Milo's popularity bar
:52:10. > :52:15.stopped, and the young man's point is that it is a vicious cycle. I
:52:15. > :52:25.travel a great deal, I've been stopped at airports recently. I
:52:25. > :52:30.and searched? Stopped at airports twice. Don't get into a game who has
:52:30. > :53:02.confidence, their relationship with been stopped more at airports out of
:53:02. > :53:05.confidence, their relationship with consultation as well. I have to
:53:05. > :53:08.confidence, their relationship with that I stood up and asked the home
:53:08. > :53:09.secretary on that day in July why we weren't having a longer consultation
:53:09. > :53:16.later the government changed its and she respond today me saying
:53:17. > :53:19.later the government changed its mind, quite rightly, because how can
:53:19. > :53:22.you have a consultation as important as this when everyone is going on
:53:22. > :53:25.summer holidays. We need to be doing saying what is it that's going to
:53:25. > :53:29.make this far more effective. What do the police need to do? You can't
:53:29. > :53:37.have a system like stop and search that you think is going to produce a
:53:37. > :53:44.searches last year, 45 45,000 areas, not even - 45 45,000 arrests. The
:53:44. > :53:46.statistics are incredible. You're a legislator. Tighten up the law. I am
:53:46. > :53:52.going to finish this point. How legislator. Tighten up the law. I am
:53:52. > :53:58.institutionalised racism? I am going All of that obviously needs looking
:53:58. > :54:01.at, but there is a major issue about the diversity of the police force as
:54:01. > :54:05.well. The police force that is are not connected to communities, that
:54:05. > :54:10.do not understand communities. If you have national police force that
:54:10. > :54:12.is five per cent ethnic minority, in London ten per cent ethnic minority,
:54:12. > :54:17.it's not surprising that you don't communities that we need, and that
:54:17. > :54:21.is the big shift that we also need to make. I want to talk to Aaron
:54:21. > :54:25.quickly. You've developed an app that has a practical application to
:54:25. > :54:35.do with stop and search. What is it? It let's the public know know what
:54:35. > :54:39.lot of your rights when you go on the web, it is really long and it is
:54:39. > :54:43.not clear and straight to the point, so we've come up with the top ten
:54:43. > :54:47.things the public want to know about their stop and search rights that
:54:47. > :54:51.situation when they are getting stopped and searched to empower
:54:51. > :54:52.situation when they are getting in that situation to move in the
:54:52. > :54:58.addressing the issue. Then the in that situation to move in the
:54:58. > :55:00.second part of the app is to upload in that situation to move in the
:55:00. > :55:16.geolocates it to the exact point basically allows you to feed back
:55:16. > :55:17.geolocates it to the exact point where you were stopped and searched.
:55:17. > :55:37.We've got to go to Tina and wrap where you were stopped and searched.
:55:37. > :55:39.We've got to go to Tina and wrap On the final 30 seconds - the most
:55:39. > :55:42.support it to Mehdi. I would say to you all that we are in a dangerous
:55:42. > :55:44.place right now. We may or may not go to war in Syria, come back to the
:55:44. > :55:49.main issue that we talked about go to war in Syria, come back to the
:55:49. > :55:54.this programme, that is don't accept what politicians or journalists
:55:54. > :55:56.this programme, that is don't accept you saying there is nothing else we
:55:56. > :56:00.can do but more war, more war. alternative to war, especially in
:56:00. > :56:08.the current climate where we have such a complicated situation. Don't
:56:08. > :56:13.please. Thank you very much. Thanks to our audience, panel, and you
:56:13. > :56:17.please. Thank you very much. Thanks sending the your comments. Join
:56:17. > :56:19.please. Thank you very much. Thanks next time live on October nine,
:56:19. > :56:22.please. Thank you very much. Thanks Cambridge. An exclusive free speech
:56:22. > :56:25.interview with a young woman in Damascus who doesn't want to be
:56:25. > :56:29.identified but she wants us to know what life is like there for young
:56:29. > :56:36.people. Life is pretty difficult. If we're not getting shelled ourselves,
:56:36. > :56:40.that means we can't sleep because of the sound of shelling of other
:56:40. > :56:44.areas. Children are afraid because they feel it might be their turn to
:56:44. > :56:46.get killed. They don't feel safe, they lost members of their families.
:56:46. > :56:51.It's not life. Damascus centre, they lost members of their families.
:56:51. > :56:54.have to pass by many checkpoints. You might get arrested like that,
:56:54. > :56:59.even if you're not an activist, You might get arrested like that,
:56:59. > :57:06.even if you don't participate in the I need to stay here, I have to help
:57:06. > :57:06.people here and to help my country.