:00:00. > :00:09.Hello, and welcome to Free Speech, the show which makes your voice
:00:10. > :00:11.heard in the national conversation. I'm Rick Edwards and welcome to Free
:00:12. > :00:31.Speech. Tonight we are live from Broadwater
:00:32. > :00:35.Farm in Tottenham, north London. Our live audience ready to tell us what
:00:36. > :00:43.they think but we want to hear what you think too. Just tell Tina
:00:44. > :00:47.Daheley. Thanks Rick - yes, we want to hear from you at home in this
:00:48. > :00:50.show. Here are the hashtags and addresses you need. Your answers and
:00:51. > :00:54.comments will come straight to me where I'll make sure they're heard
:00:55. > :00:57.in the debate. As well as your comments we'll be running the Power
:00:58. > :01:01.Bar. As the questions are asked we'll be putting them up on the
:01:02. > :01:05.bottom of the screen for you to debate. Just use the hashtag Free
:01:06. > :01:09.Speech Yes or hashtag Free Speech No to let us know what you think of the
:01:10. > :01:13.topic being discussed. And here is our panel. Telegraph columnist and
:01:14. > :01:15.historian, Tim Stanley, Broadcaster and Labour candidate for parliament,
:01:16. > :01:18.Amy Lame Luisa Zissman, businesswoman and star of the
:01:19. > :01:20.Apprentice and Celebrity Big Brother and Maajid Nawaz, co-founder of
:01:21. > :01:22.anti-extremist think tank Quilliam and now Lib Dem candidate for
:01:23. > :01:42.parliament. And that's our panel. APPLAUSE. Our first question comes
:01:43. > :01:46.from our studio audience. My question is are the police right to
:01:47. > :01:50.judge young people on the way we look? Are the police right to judge
:01:51. > :01:58.young people based on the way that we look? Let's start with you
:01:59. > :02:04.please, Maajid. My answer one absolutely not. I have been probably
:02:05. > :02:11.the only person on this panel that has been arrested at gun point and I
:02:12. > :02:16.was detained over night and I know how terrifying it can be. If you're
:02:17. > :02:22.going to profile people racially, that tells you nothing about whether
:02:23. > :02:31.they'ry -- carrying drugs or weapons and all it does is breed resentment
:02:32. > :02:36.that we saw here in this area in Tottenham. It is difficult and some
:02:37. > :02:41.people fit into a certain demographic that statistically they
:02:42. > :02:45.will carry knives or do drugs. But on the flip side it is wrong to be
:02:46. > :02:51.discriminated against. The police have to profile people, because they
:02:52. > :02:57.can't stop and search everybody on the street. How would you respond to
:02:58. > :03:04.that? I would say young people, why do the police have to take the media
:03:05. > :03:09.stereotypes of young people, just because we're wearing hoodies or
:03:10. > :03:14.trainers and on the street, just because a certain group of young
:03:15. > :03:23.people commit those crimes, everybody who wears those brands is
:03:24. > :03:30.not a criminal. The media stereotype that it was 18 to 24-year-olds, but
:03:31. > :03:35.on the streets it was more 30-plus-year-olds who were looting
:03:36. > :03:40.and stealing. The gentleman at the back. I don't think, it is easy to
:03:41. > :03:46.jump on the police for profiling, but it is society in general. But we
:03:47. > :03:53.as young people are being profiled in the media and on the streets, I
:03:54. > :03:57.could walk op the street wearing a hoodie and see other people cross
:03:58. > :04:03.the street. That is not just the police. That is society. What do you
:04:04. > :04:07.think, Tim? That is a very good point. There are two issues. First
:04:08. > :04:12.that of youth being targeted on the basis of the way people dress. Well,
:04:13. > :04:16.no, if you wear a hoodie, it doesn't mean you're necessary lay criminal,
:04:17. > :04:20.but you're more likely to be a criminal and you will be judged by
:04:21. > :04:25.the police in that way. That is unfortunate, but the police have to
:04:26. > :04:30.make snap decisions. That is separate from the issue of racial
:04:31. > :04:34.profiling for which there is no excuse and none of this could
:04:35. > :04:39.justify stopping and searching, which is unconstitutional. But I
:04:40. > :04:46.don't think we can blame the police for trying to bring law and order to
:04:47. > :04:51.the streets by making judgments that are rationale basis of people
:04:52. > :04:56.hanging around in groups, or people looking a certain way on the basis
:04:57. > :05:01.of clothing. That is not unreasonable. Maajid? If you think
:05:02. > :05:04.that the majority of people that wear hoodies happen to be preparing
:05:05. > :05:13.to commit a crime. I didn't say that. Most people in California are
:05:14. > :05:18.wearing hoodies, so I find that strange where the statistics are.
:05:19. > :05:24.People wear all sorts of clothing. That is preposterous as saying all
:05:25. > :05:32.people in pink ties and suits are bankers and are ripping people off.
:05:33. > :05:38.They probably are! The gentleman here. I agree that the police have
:05:39. > :05:44.to make snap decisions. It is more of a society problem than it is the
:05:45. > :05:47.police's false. If you're to be seen wearing a hoodie and what not, the
:05:48. > :05:52.police do tend to think you're a xrl. But like I said, it depends on
:05:53. > :05:58.the police have to make snap decisions, because they see somebody
:05:59. > :06:02.wearing a hoodie and they have a knife and they leave them alone. It
:06:03. > :06:11.could come back and be a problem. Has anyone experienced stop and
:06:12. > :06:15.sench? -- search? A couple of years ago I was riding my bike home and I
:06:16. > :06:22.got stopped and searched and it was quite at the time it was quite
:06:23. > :06:28.humiliating. My first instances is the colour of your skin and I think
:06:29. > :06:36.personally the proportion rate of stop and search is high on black,
:06:37. > :06:45.African, Caribbean. You're seven more times like to be stopped if
:06:46. > :06:50.your black an white. Yes. I would say to say the idea that if you wear
:06:51. > :06:57.hoodie there is some chance that you're a criminal, I completely...
:06:58. > :07:03.That is ridiculous. I go to college and everyone I know wears a hoodie.
:07:04. > :07:08.So is everyone likely to be a criminal, are we all smuggling drugs
:07:09. > :07:14.because we wear hoodies? Let's clarify that this. -- clarify this.
:07:15. > :07:19.Police are walking down the street and a car alarm goes off, there are
:07:20. > :07:25.two people in the street. A young person in a hoodie and a little old
:07:26. > :07:32.lady with her bags, who are they going to stop? Let's live in the
:07:33. > :07:40.real world. It is a hypothetical situation. It is hypothetical. This
:07:41. > :07:47.gentleman? The fact that I wear a baseball cap does that make me me
:07:48. > :07:53.more like to commit a crime. Because I'm young mayor of Lewisham. Is
:07:54. > :07:57.something funny? Because it is a thing where I have been stopped
:07:58. > :08:02.because I was wearing a baseball jacket and a hat. While the police
:08:03. > :08:07.are not doing their job, they're supposed to be searching the guy in
:08:08. > :08:13.the white van who could be carrying how many drugs, instead of profiling
:08:14. > :08:16.young people. Because why am I being stopped and searched for my minding
:08:17. > :08:21.my own business and the same excuse is given there has been a robbery in
:08:22. > :08:25.the area. You should be stopping and searching the vans who have got
:08:26. > :08:31.loads of drugs, instead of going for young people because of the way they
:08:32. > :08:35.dress. That is reasonable. You can't stop everyone driving a white van.
:08:36. > :08:39.Then you have the same problem with white van drivers. You have to
:08:40. > :08:44.understand where the profiling comes from. So they will look at correct
:08:45. > :08:51.me if I'm wrong, they will look at crime rate in the area and look at
:08:52. > :08:58.the typical who does the crimes and typically I think from profiling and
:08:59. > :09:03.statistically it will be a young male, I don't know if it is black or
:09:04. > :09:06.white, I don't know if the colour of your skin makes a difference, in
:09:07. > :09:12.your age range, wearing those clothes. That will be the profile
:09:13. > :09:18.and that is when they stop people. There is a reaction on Twitter. To
:09:19. > :09:26.you Tim, a lot of people reacting, not necessarily in a good way. No?
:09:27. > :09:30.Monica says no it is discrimination, just because you're black and young
:09:31. > :09:36.does not mean you're going to stab someone. I did not say that. One
:09:37. > :09:43.says if you're innocent you have nothing worry about. And this, not
:09:44. > :09:49.all police profile people, but if you carry yourself in a certain way,
:09:50. > :09:54.be prepared. Picking up on what you said, if you're innocent and you
:09:55. > :10:01.have nothing to worry about. There is a humiliation associated with it.
:10:02. > :10:06.It is intimidation and if the first instance the young people have with
:10:07. > :10:10.the police is stop and search, what situation is this present gt for the
:10:11. > :10:15.future? It means young people will be intimidated by the police and
:10:16. > :10:19.won't trust the police and we need an overhaul of stop and search
:10:20. > :10:22.policies. Otherwise community relationships between young people
:10:23. > :10:32.and people as a whole and the police will continue to break down. I can
:10:33. > :10:36.answer that question. Because I was, when I was stopped is, I was 15 and
:10:37. > :10:40.the tweeter that said if you're innocent you have nothing to worry
:10:41. > :10:46.about. Having a gun put to your head is something to worry about.
:10:47. > :10:54.Although I was released, no one wants a gun puts to their head and
:10:55. > :10:58.we know how people can be accidentally shot to death. Well at
:10:59. > :11:03.16 a year later I joined an extremist organisation, because I
:11:04. > :11:08.became so disillusioned with mainstream society and what I saw
:11:09. > :11:15.going on in terms of racism and then added of course my own ideological
:11:16. > :11:21.dogma, which I now try to challenge. But people become so disconnected
:11:22. > :11:29.and disen-Fran xhiezed from society that they start seeking identities
:11:30. > :11:42.in other forms. And they are extra-legal organisations. How would
:11:43. > :11:45.you respond to this? It is sad in the sense of someone says it is a
:11:46. > :11:50.stereotype. I think the conversation we have picked up here is a
:11:51. > :11:55.stereotype. One thing we don't know is stop people on the way sis --
:11:56. > :11:59.basis of the way they dress, their skin colour or they're wearing a
:12:00. > :12:03.baseball cap. It is sad, because there is lot of positive things that
:12:04. > :12:07.we do with young people and lots of work we do with young people.
:12:08. > :12:12.Particularly on stop and search. For example, some of the young people
:12:13. > :12:17.want to go to Google fed up, it is a programme that we made with a local
:12:18. > :12:22.company here about stop and search and talking about your rights. What
:12:23. > :12:26.we can do and working with us. The majority of stop and searches are
:12:27. > :12:30.not a problem. The issues that we are looking at is not the stop and
:12:31. > :12:34.search, but the way we do it. It is the attitude of police officers and
:12:35. > :12:37.the way he or she reacts with the young people and we are working with
:12:38. > :12:41.young people to correct that. It is important. If you ask the majority
:12:42. > :12:46.of young people should the police carry out stop and search, most
:12:47. > :12:49.would say yes. But do it with respect and dignity and actually
:12:50. > :12:54.tell me the reasons why you're stopping me so it makes sense. If we
:12:55. > :12:58.do that, we get into a position where we use stop and search to
:12:59. > :13:02.protect young innocent people who want to spend their time in a public
:13:03. > :13:08.place and enjoy themselves. A few people nodding there. Following on
:13:09. > :13:13.from the point about statistics and it is a certain demographic that get
:13:14. > :13:17.chosen for stop and search. If you take it from race and think about
:13:18. > :13:22.car insurance, there is a certain demographic, maems, who -- males,
:13:23. > :13:27.who tend to cause the most accidents. Now there is no gender
:13:28. > :13:33.discrimination with car insurance and we have to foot the bill. So now
:13:34. > :13:36.will everybody get stopped and searched regardless? I think that is
:13:37. > :13:41.the only way that is fair. If we have to do it with car insurance,
:13:42. > :13:48.even should get stopped and searched. Because it is too
:13:49. > :13:53.expensive. The police officer at the stop said the majority of stop and
:13:54. > :13:59.searches are OK. For you and for me. But not for plenty of people here.
:14:00. > :14:01.The fact is it is not OK for the thousands of kids who have been
:14:02. > :14:05.stripped searched for no reason other than the colour of their skin
:14:06. > :14:10.and the police close ranks, refuse to sxrut niez themselves --
:14:11. > :14:14.scrutinise themselves when everyone knows they murdered a young black
:14:15. > :14:18.man. The police have to be respectful to the people their
:14:19. > :14:21.stopping and the people are powerless in that position. That is
:14:22. > :14:29.what the police have to realise and I think they have a lot to answer
:14:30. > :14:35.for. A power point. What people think. What we are thinking are the
:14:36. > :14:41.police right to judge us on the way we look. 61% say yes it is right.
:14:42. > :14:48.That is surprising. Yes. You mentioned about the way that we do
:14:49. > :14:52.things and your scenario of a younger and an older person. There
:14:53. > :14:58.was a video with a car set up with a keys not in it and expecting to see
:14:59. > :15:04.who would steal it and it was an old lady? Does that not suggest maybe we
:15:05. > :15:12.are profiling, but are we doing it in the wrong way. When you were
:15:13. > :15:16.speaking, I chuckled, I was not chuckling at you. I was trying to
:15:17. > :15:19.defend what may go through the minds of certain policemen. It doesn't
:15:20. > :15:22.mean it is right or wrong. But the point made by the officer there is
:15:23. > :15:27.the better one. There is a reality, there is a fantasy and a reality of
:15:28. > :15:30.what goes on in police work of mistakes are made. People feel
:15:31. > :15:37.targeted and that's bad for relations. In the majority of cases
:15:38. > :15:42.police are trying to maintain law and order. Sometimes they make
:15:43. > :15:45.judgements which turn out to be wrong, but the majority of cases the
:15:46. > :15:50.police are on our side and we owe them more trust and respect than we
:15:51. > :15:58.currently give them in the media. Yes, this gentleman here. Well, I
:15:59. > :16:04.think we have engaged... A different one to what I was going for. We have
:16:05. > :16:12.engaged in more general debates about stopping and searching. .
:16:13. > :16:15.There will be anomalies to statistics, there is always a big
:16:16. > :16:18.possibility that you are going to be dealing with an anomaly to those
:16:19. > :16:23.statistics and therefore, I think, it becomes to the idea of respond to
:16:24. > :16:27.go individual circumstances, what are the actual reasons that we are
:16:28. > :16:32.going suspect an individual of committing a crime? A particular
:16:33. > :16:37.moment rather than referring to statistics. There is something weird
:16:38. > :16:45.about the way you phrase it. You said the probabliality of there
:16:46. > :16:50.being an anomaly. I have been stopped and searched numerous
:16:51. > :16:53.amounts of times and I have always responded with the utmost respect
:16:54. > :16:57.from the police officers. They have treated with me dignity. The idea
:16:58. > :17:01.that so many people feel that they have been mistreated and they feel
:17:02. > :17:05.that the police force are not being in touch with the youth is in my
:17:06. > :17:08.opinion not really true because there is things like the police
:17:09. > :17:11.cadets and numerous organisation that is the police try and get
:17:12. > :17:14.involved with the youth and other groups of people. It is not true
:17:15. > :17:19.what everyone is saying. OK. Last comment up here and in the
:17:20. > :17:24.grey jumper. I wanted to get back to you on that, when you get a line of
:17:25. > :17:29.police officers, they stop you, they ask you about insurance and they ask
:17:30. > :17:36.you what's on your floor and they ask you if you mok smoke and as a
:17:37. > :17:40.full-time worker and graduate that takes liberties. Once it happens
:17:41. > :17:46.with one person and it happens in the community, it breaks down the
:17:47. > :17:47.trust and I think that's the issue. APPLAUSE
:17:48. > :17:51.It feels like it is about respect. We are going to move on to our next
:17:52. > :17:55.question. This one comes from our leaderboard, Tina. All week Free
:17:56. > :17:58.Speech viewers have been going to Free Speech on Facebook. Clicking
:17:59. > :18:02.through to the audience questions page and looking through the many
:18:03. > :18:06.questions, all of which, have been submitted by you at home. This is
:18:07. > :18:09.how it works. People click like on the questions they want to see on
:18:10. > :18:14.the show and we count up the likes to make this, the leaderboard, here
:18:15. > :18:16.it is. Published at 2pm this afternoon. There are the questions
:18:17. > :18:29.and there are the number of likes they got. The top question is from
:18:30. > :18:35.Jakes James Briggs, he asked should we legalise medicinal cannabis? No.
:18:36. > :18:40.I can understand the case for those who are in tremendous pain and there
:18:41. > :18:46.should be some resource for those people being able to access drugs.
:18:47. > :18:51.But the reality is that turning marijuana to something you can get
:18:52. > :18:56.on prescription creates a new market. If you spend your time in
:18:57. > :19:06.California, you see people going to the doctor saying I am down, nudge,
:19:07. > :19:10.nudge, wink. It creates a market for all kinds of new drugs. You don't
:19:11. > :19:13.get people off harder things, you simply encourage people to
:19:14. > :19:18.experiment with harder things. I think the message we need to send to
:19:19. > :19:23.people is that drugs destroy lives, but they are also a moral choice
:19:24. > :19:28.which means that you end up becoming part of a criminal system which
:19:29. > :19:31.supports child labour, which supports gangsterism in foreign
:19:32. > :19:35.countries, but is about dropping out of society and dropping out of the
:19:36. > :19:41.system and I think that's the wrong message to send to people.
:19:42. > :19:46.The gentleman up here in the stripy top. We should legalise all drugs.
:19:47. > :19:50.APPLAUSE The problems that people describe,
:19:51. > :19:54.aren't because of the drugs themselves, it is because they are
:19:55. > :20:01.in the hands of criminals. It caused more harm than the drugs themselves.
:20:02. > :20:07.Legalise drugs and it would solve most of the problems. Amy. I
:20:08. > :20:12.disagree with your statement. I really don't think they should be
:20:13. > :20:16.legalised. I have a very personal story about this because my sister
:20:17. > :20:21.was a heroin addict for 12 years and I have seen first hand how drugs
:20:22. > :20:25.tear apart families, communities, how they disturb children. The
:20:26. > :20:31.devastation is massive and what I think we really need to do is to
:20:32. > :20:35.look more kindly upon addicts and get to the root of the issue around
:20:36. > :20:40.addiction which is often a backdrop of mental health issues, social
:20:41. > :20:44.exclusion, economic exclusion, all sorts of things so I think we need
:20:45. > :20:50.to approach drugs in a different way, I would come down with the full
:20:51. > :20:54.force of the law on drug pushers and dealers, but I think we need to take
:20:55. > :21:04.a more holistic and kinder approach to people who have addiction issues.
:21:05. > :21:09.On Facebook, they don't want to give their name. Cannabis helped me live
:21:10. > :21:15.with Crohn's disease. I have tried every treatment available. It puts
:21:16. > :21:19.Crohn's disease into a more controllable state. I should have
:21:20. > :21:23.the choice. Even my doctors told me off the record not to stop. Do you
:21:24. > :21:27.think this person should stop? There are other medications that can deal
:21:28. > :21:31.with pain. He tried every single treatment. This is the only thing
:21:32. > :21:36.that works. I have an open mind about certain things, but I don't
:21:37. > :21:44.think that creating a market for legalised cannabis in all cases is a
:21:45. > :21:48.good idea. And that person is self medicating which is never a good
:21:49. > :21:51.thing to do. The doctors told them not to stop and they have tried
:21:52. > :21:57.every single treatment. Peter Reynolds. You are the leader of
:21:58. > :22:07.Clear, you want cannabis law reform? Absolutely. Explain why. For
:22:08. > :22:08.medicinal use. Crohn's disease is an excellent example. There are
:22:09. > :22:12.clinical trials taking place in Israel on this subject. But what
:22:13. > :22:16.most people don't realise is 100 years ago, half of the medicines
:22:17. > :22:21.that you could get this this country contained cannabis for a wide range
:22:22. > :22:25.of conditions. And it is only 80 years ago that we started this
:22:26. > :22:30.experiment of banning cannabis and on no basis exempt on the basis of
:22:31. > :22:34.prejudice and it is only 30 years ago that science has begun to
:22:35. > :22:39.explain why cannabis is so effective for such a wide range of conditions
:22:40. > :22:45.and what we advocate is very simple and that is if a doctor wants to
:22:46. > :22:47.prescribe cannabis based on his professional judgement then he
:22:48. > :22:52.should be able to do so and the fact of the matter is because there is so
:22:53. > :22:58.much... Is it n true that they can? No, they can't. There is a cannabis
:22:59. > :23:02.medicine which has existed in this country for five or six years. And
:23:03. > :23:06.it is a spray? It is a spray, OK. The ridiculous thing we are the only
:23:07. > :23:10.country in the world that is licensed to major pharmaceutical
:23:11. > :23:13.company to grow cannabis for medicine and our Government, our
:23:14. > :23:17.Home Office tells us there is no medicinal value in cannabis. So what
:23:18. > :23:22.we want is we want doctors to be able to prescribe cannabis and
:23:23. > :23:30.science has begun to explain why cannabis is effective. We have
:23:31. > :23:35.something in our body and cannabis modulates this and it controls our
:23:36. > :23:40.cardiovascular system. We will Google this later!
:23:41. > :23:45.The gentleman in yellow. There is some clear benefits for medicinal
:23:46. > :23:53.use, but where do you draw the line to ensure that access doesn't become
:23:54. > :23:58.easy for recreational purposes and lead to potentially situations like
:23:59. > :24:07.Amy discussed? One of the remarkable things about cannabis is it is safe.
:24:08. > :24:09.Even professor, the chair of the Government's advisory panel says
:24:10. > :24:16.that cannabis is a safer drug than aspirin and can be used without any
:24:17. > :24:22.serious effects. That's not... Aspirin doesn't give you
:24:23. > :24:29.schizophrenia. You are walking into The Daily Mail characture. Cannabis
:24:30. > :24:31.does not give you schizophrenia. It is nonsense. You look at the
:24:32. > :24:36.statistics, anybody in this country is six times more likely to be
:24:37. > :24:40.admitted to hospital for mental and behavioural problems related to
:24:41. > :24:48.alcohol than for cannabis. APPLAUSE
:24:49. > :24:52.It done mean you should release another drug on to the market. There
:24:53. > :24:57.are strong arguments for legalising cannabis for adults all around. Very
:24:58. > :25:03.strong arguments, here tonight we are talking about medicinal use. It
:25:04. > :25:07.is outrageous that politicians and civil servants can try and override
:25:08. > :25:12.what a doctor wants to prescribe for his patients.
:25:13. > :25:16.APPLAUSE We have got to be very careful.
:25:17. > :25:23.There is two extremes to this debate. One is legalise everything,
:25:24. > :25:27.let's go to the corner shop and buy crack cocaine, why not? There is a
:25:28. > :25:31.middle ground. I agree request something that Nick Clegg said when
:25:32. > :25:34.he came back from Columbia. He said that middle ground will be UN review
:25:35. > :25:37.into this. The Government is under going a review into this and there
:25:38. > :25:41.is a serious question about looking at cannabis because it isn't
:25:42. > :25:45.statistically as you have said correctly, it doesn't lead to as
:25:46. > :25:50.much social damage and health damage as alcohol. It has a medicinal
:25:51. > :25:54.purpose. We are talking here specifically, not about
:25:55. > :25:58.legalisation, but decriminalisation and changing the debate from being
:25:59. > :26:02.one of law and order to health. It is a health question and like any
:26:03. > :26:06.other health question, if someone is an alcoholic, we don't say let's ban
:26:07. > :26:11.alcohol? We say they need rehabilitation. If someone gets
:26:12. > :26:17.addicted to cannabis then they can go to rehab like everyone else who
:26:18. > :26:22.is addicted to alcohol and cigarettes.
:26:23. > :26:27.We were talking specifically about medicinal use. The evidence really
:26:28. > :26:34.is overwhelming, OK. I am going to chat to the police about this.
:26:35. > :26:38.LAUGHTER Alex Marshall, where do you stand?
:26:39. > :26:42.The Government makes laws and it is for the police to enforce the laws
:26:43. > :26:48.so the police don't have a role in make the laws, there is no doubt the
:26:49. > :26:52.harm that is done. Interest a medical point of view, in medicine,
:26:53. > :26:55.the established practise is you always test things thoroughly and
:26:56. > :27:00.you have have a scientific basis for a treatment that a doctor provides.
:27:01. > :27:04.I am from the College of Policing, we doing research to make sure the
:27:05. > :27:07.policing approaches we use, stop and search an example we heard about
:27:08. > :27:11.earlier, are based on sou evidence, not on judging people by the way
:27:12. > :27:15.they look, but on the evidence of what works. You should look at
:27:16. > :27:20.evidence in these things, but the laws are made by Government, not by
:27:21. > :27:28.the police. This from someone called Younglin.
:27:29. > :27:30.Tim needs to leave his elitist fantasy world and visit the
:27:31. > :27:34.Netherlands. They have different access to
:27:35. > :27:40.cannabis. Let's look at the Power Bar to see what people at home
:27:41. > :27:49.think. Should we legalise medicinal cannabis. 66%, Free Speech, yes.
:27:50. > :27:58.The gentleman at the back. I think cannabis is miraculous. I read a
:27:59. > :28:07.story about a girl, $1 million of diagnostics wasn't able to diagnose
:28:08. > :28:14.her condition and oil cured her having less seizures. I want to
:28:15. > :28:19.address Tim on this one because he said if it was medicinal you could
:28:20. > :28:23.go to your doctor and be like, "I am in pain. I need a little bit of -
:28:24. > :28:27.what about alcohol, you don't have to lie to your doctor? You can go to
:28:28. > :28:31.the shop and buy it and drink as much as you want and it kills
:28:32. > :28:38.people. Weed never killed anybody. APPLAUSE
:28:39. > :28:43.Alcohol is bad. People abuse it and it kills people. Let's ban it.
:28:44. > :28:47.That's not an arguemed for legalising a different kind drug.
:28:48. > :28:51.Alcohol is part of our society. If we did try and restrict it, or ban
:28:52. > :28:58.it, if we did try to restrict it or ban it that would have extraordinary
:28:59. > :29:03.societal effects. Like wise, if we tried to legalise drugs, it will
:29:04. > :29:10.have societal effects because we have not... There are two sides to
:29:11. > :29:15.this argument. It will have a massive, massive effect we can't
:29:16. > :29:24.predictment Luisa? I'm all for legalising
:29:25. > :29:34.cannabis for medicinal purposes. But if you have a problem like Crones
:29:35. > :29:38.you can grow the weed its and from a corrupt Government point of view,
:29:39. > :29:44.think how much the Government makes from pharmaceutical companies and
:29:45. > :29:51.how much of an interest The In it. When you legalise weed, you go into
:29:52. > :29:55.another shady area of grey, where people can self-prescribe and the
:29:56. > :30:05.government would lose a huge amount of money from prescribing legal
:30:06. > :30:10.drugs. The lady in red? Tim said about alcohol being part of our
:30:11. > :30:15.society that is only because of its long-standing history. If it was
:30:16. > :30:19.discovered today, would we accept it causes lung cancer and alcohol has
:30:20. > :30:28.such long effects in society. It is only because of its history. That is
:30:29. > :30:38.true. If we discovered alcohol I would say it should be illegal. No!
:30:39. > :30:43.We have case studies where they have experimented with the legalisation
:30:44. > :30:46.of cannabis and they have found that generally and this is not
:30:47. > :30:54.necessarily the case going forward, but there hasn't been a mass surge
:30:55. > :30:59.of people getting aticket dicted -- addicted and they started taxing the
:31:00. > :31:04.trade and raised a lot of money. Because surprisingly, a lot of
:31:05. > :31:09.people are on weed. And final think Afghanistansters -- gangsters, they
:31:10. > :31:13.deprived them of a lot of money and it makes economic and social sense.
:31:14. > :31:19.I am standing for Parliament answering the police point, I will
:31:20. > :31:22.campaign on the legalisation of medicinal cannabis. That is
:31:23. > :31:30.something I decided a long time ago before this debate. Yes? Does that
:31:31. > :31:35.mean this is all a business to the Government? I thought our debate was
:31:36. > :31:38.on the medicinal side. You mentioned they tax it. So that does mean that
:31:39. > :31:44.we are looking at the economic benefits over the benefits of
:31:45. > :31:49.people? That is what laws should be on. It comes down to a lot about the
:31:50. > :31:53.Government and people don't realise how much influence the Government
:31:54. > :32:00.has and how much is made from alcohol and Sigg ketds -- cigarettes
:32:01. > :32:05.and how much they would lose out. Because people would self-grow. Any
:32:06. > :32:09.taxation goes back into the health industry and you deprive organised
:32:10. > :32:14.crime of lots of their revenues. Which is a huge problem when you
:32:15. > :32:19.talk about the consequences and costs to society by policing
:32:20. > :32:25.organised crime. And the cost to society, let's be real, drugs, when
:32:26. > :32:32.we talk about regulating them, it is a huge industry and if you add that
:32:33. > :32:38.to the health benefit and that poor soul who is living in pain, people
:32:39. > :32:46.should be allowed to decide what to do with their own bodies when it
:32:47. > :32:51.comes to medicinal cannabis. It is not crack cocaine. Now we tried to
:32:52. > :33:03.debate this on our last show in Birmingham, but then we didn't. But
:33:04. > :33:08.better late than never. I talk about being Muslim gay in society. These
:33:09. > :33:14.labels shouldn't fit well together, but here I am and I refuse to give
:33:15. > :33:17.one up over the other. I kept it to myself, because I was afraid what
:33:18. > :33:21.the community would say, what my parents would say. I came out to my
:33:22. > :33:27.parents when I was in my 20s. My mum came into my room and questioned me
:33:28. > :33:35.about my sexuality. I said this in Urdu, which is my mother tongue.
:33:36. > :33:39.That means my mum, gay. There was an occasion where my mum asked whether
:33:40. > :33:43.I need to go and see a doctor. I said this isn't something that I can
:33:44. > :33:48.take a medicine for. When I introduced my partner to my parents,
:33:49. > :33:52.I introduced him as the person I want to marry and although I entered
:33:53. > :33:59.into a civil partnership, they sort of saw it equal as a marriage and my
:34:00. > :34:07.mum attended the ceremony and ended up giving me away and giving us her
:34:08. > :34:12.blessing. It sounds a cliche but it was the best moment of my life. The
:34:13. > :34:20.character has allowed me to reach out to many people. My mum, my
:34:21. > :34:24.aunties and sisters came to one of my shows. The gay community were
:34:25. > :34:37.inspired and in awe that a Muslim woman dressed in a nick nick cab has
:34:38. > :34:46.come. So when it will be right to be Muslim and gay? Why did you want to
:34:47. > :34:51.ask that question? It is an issue affecting a lot of gay Muslims in
:34:52. > :34:55.the country. Thousands of gay Muslims and I think it is a topic
:34:56. > :35:02.that is relevant today. It is a topic that doesn't get discussed on
:35:03. > :35:10.any level. Continuously gets brushed under the carpet and I would like to
:35:11. > :35:15.get it discussed. Amy? What do you think I think it is absolutely all
:35:16. > :35:22.right. I think he is inspiring and to hear your story about your family
:35:23. > :35:28.being so loving and gentle with you is just wonderful. Of course, it is
:35:29. > :35:32.OK to be gay and Muslim and Christian and nonreligious and
:35:33. > :35:37.whatever. This is the 21st Century and you know, not only do we have
:35:38. > :35:43.the laws to support this equalitiers -- equality, we have changed a lot
:35:44. > :35:48.of hearts and minds in the past 20 years. It is, we are looking at a
:35:49. > :35:52.fantastic weekend ahead on Saturday we will have the first equal
:35:53. > :36:00.marriages taking place here in the UK and I think it is a proud moment
:36:01. > :36:09.for the country. What is your position on this? Well, the Islamic
:36:10. > :36:13.position is we don't label people by their sexuality or their nationality
:36:14. > :36:20.or their race. This label was invented in the Victorian era. As
:36:21. > :36:27.soon as you diskrim napted by label, you diskrim named. In Islam we don't
:36:28. > :36:35.have a title like that. You are just humans. The only thing that is
:36:36. > :36:40.judged, it is just actions. And there many actions which are sinful
:36:41. > :36:50.and many are permitted. We can't say you can't be gay and Muslim. We
:36:51. > :36:57.don't make the disrim crimination between sexuality. That is when
:36:58. > :37:05.discrimination begins. I'm confused. Would you therefore describe him as
:37:06. > :37:12.sinful? What he does in his own home ills not my concern. I'm just
:37:13. > :37:16.saying. Look, what he does in the privacy of his own home is not my
:37:17. > :37:26.concern. If you want a judgment, you can refer it to god. I'm not God,
:37:27. > :37:33.I'm just a human being. But Islamic says thr things like drinking
:37:34. > :37:37.alcohol, eating pork or different gender intercourse out of marriage
:37:38. > :37:48.which is sin you feel. But you -- sinful. You can still be a muss
:37:49. > :37:53.Muslim. The real intolerance. It is rich that he says he can't profile
:37:54. > :37:59.young people because they have hoodies, but his organisation
:38:00. > :38:08.profiles Muslims who have orthodox beliefs and calls them extremists
:38:09. > :38:13.and he is a Government-funded stooge attacking Muslims. What we are
:38:14. > :38:19.talking about is different. But I have got a right to get back to the
:38:20. > :38:24.subject. Quilliam doesn't profile Muslim and we are not Government
:38:25. > :38:30.funded. But back to the subject... You were. It is time we had an
:38:31. > :38:35.honest debate. We are as Muslim communities in the plural,
:38:36. > :38:40.simultaneously oppressed and the oppressors. That is a dynamic that
:38:41. > :38:45.plays out in any other scenario of victimhood, whetherivity is domestic
:38:46. > :38:50.abuse, somebody usual lip has abuse done to them and they turn to an
:38:51. > :38:54.abuser whether with a wife or children. It is a cycle of violence.
:38:55. > :38:59.And with Muslim communities across the world, we have failed a lot of
:39:00. > :39:06.violence. I faced torture in prison in Egypt I have been had police
:39:07. > :39:11.brutality and in turn we become brutalisers of others. And in the
:39:12. > :39:16.case of being a minority within this minority, we sometimes end up
:39:17. > :39:25.discriminating against minorities within the minority and a case in
:39:26. > :39:31.point is gay Muslims. Yesterday a film was shown about an openly gay
:39:32. > :39:37.muz whip who has to -- Muslim who has to live in hiding because he has
:39:38. > :39:43.been attacked. We have to have an honest debate. It doesn't mean every
:39:44. > :39:48.Muslim is homophobic. But we have to be honest and say there is
:39:49. > :39:55.discrimination within Muslim communities and call a spade a
:39:56. > :40:01.spade. I'm a British Muslim, my family has been in London for 50
:40:02. > :40:05.years. And the question raised, the two topics are controversial, but
:40:06. > :40:09.you can be gay and Muslim. I think it was wrong for the mosque to ban
:40:10. > :40:13.the discussion a few weeks ago, because we live in a democracy,
:40:14. > :40:19.where we are allowed to disagree. The mosque are not here to defend
:40:20. > :40:25.themselves. But OK, I don't think we're allowed to sensor anything.
:40:26. > :40:30.But I know him and he does a lot of work for the gay community. Being a
:40:31. > :40:39.drag queen isn't the same as being gay. It may sound obvious. Being gay
:40:40. > :40:47.is not about and sex or sexual - anal sex or sexual membering
:40:48. > :40:52.Nishings. -- mechanics. And to say they're in the same vein as
:40:53. > :40:55.murderers and paedophiles. He has a position of responsibility and that
:40:56. > :41:01.same language is used by people around the world to justify
:41:02. > :41:08.murdering and persecuting people in the community and it causes a lot of
:41:09. > :41:14.sadness. I volunteered for a UK organisation and we have helped
:41:15. > :41:17.asylum seekers and people in the UK who have been disowned by their own
:41:18. > :41:26.family and simply to love someone isn't a sin. No religion is
:41:27. > :41:37.preaching hate. If there is 1.5 Muslims and 10% is gay. People need
:41:38. > :41:44.to stop hating and start loving. Well Maajid talks about how he loves
:41:45. > :41:50.minorities. But he tells the Government that certain beliefs are
:41:51. > :41:55.extreme. Let's stick to what we are talking about. Including the belief
:41:56. > :42:00.that what is sinful and what is not sinful to believe in mainstream
:42:01. > :42:06.believes. If I believe that same gender physical intercourse is a sin
:42:07. > :42:10.doesn't make me extremist. There are Christians that believe this. Don't
:42:11. > :42:15.ask me to judge people. I'm not here to judge anyone. Will be judged when
:42:16. > :42:19.I'm dead. You should not be called extremist for holding mainstream
:42:20. > :42:23.beliefs. And people that hold these beliefs are not attacking anyone.
:42:24. > :42:38.They are holding the beliefs and being treated as outcasts and modern
:42:39. > :42:44.day her ticks. Anonymous, it is come -- it is hard coming out in a Muslim
:42:45. > :42:50.family and you live two lives. I came out to my mum and still haven't
:42:51. > :42:56.told the family. I don't wish to. I am happy, I am gay and I am Muslim.
:42:57. > :43:03.And another one as a Muslim the issue around homosexuality within my
:43:04. > :43:10.faith and community is one of anom imty -- anonymity and it has led to
:43:11. > :43:15.depression and suicidal thoughts. My siblings know telling my parents is
:43:16. > :43:26.something else. Isn't it attitudes within the community that we are
:43:27. > :43:35.hearing stories like this? All Muslims are human and we all commit
:43:36. > :43:41.sin. In the thee logy you cannot say I have done this. You keep it
:43:42. > :43:47.private. We all do sins, but you shouldn't be I must come out. Who
:43:48. > :44:00.said you should come out? Just you know I tell everyone about my
:44:01. > :44:04.private life. You do not choose to be gay.
:44:05. > :44:09.APPLAUSE If you want to live your life by a
:44:10. > :44:17.book that's ancient, it is just so beyond the views are outdated. I
:44:18. > :44:23.think it is bad... There is a confusion. It should be why can you
:44:24. > :44:27.not be religious and gay? APPLAUSE
:44:28. > :44:31.Can I braefl clarify that -- briefly clarify that? Being gay refers to
:44:32. > :44:34.emotions of feelings, right? That's different from actions, all right.
:44:35. > :44:41.We're talking about actions. I'm not saying about feelings in Islam
:44:42. > :44:45.feelings are not sinful, right? Actions are a good person or a bad
:44:46. > :44:52.person, that's all we're saying. Being gay is not bad. That's not
:44:53. > :44:59.what I'm saying. We don't even label the people to discriminate them. You
:45:00. > :45:04.are the one that discriminates them. You are the one that makes the
:45:05. > :45:10.discrimination. You don't even acknowledge it, that's worse. I
:45:11. > :45:16.treat them as humans. The lady here. He came out and said the censorship
:45:17. > :45:37.that happened on BBC Free Speech was not only an attack on LG and BT. The
:45:38. > :45:44.fact that you have sensored it and postponed it. Postpone is not the
:45:45. > :45:48.same as sensored. The mosque, the concern, they expressed concern and
:45:49. > :45:57.the BBC decided to abide by that and they came out saying. You need to
:45:58. > :46:06.identify, you identify yourself as gay. Why do you chose to be Muslim
:46:07. > :46:14.when it says within Islam, that that is prohibited?
:46:15. > :46:18.APPLAUSE I would like to say that sexual
:46:19. > :46:26.orren tation is not a choice. It is a choice for you to be Muslim. No.
:46:27. > :46:34.No. Couldn't get involved in this. Why would you choose to be a Muslim.
:46:35. > :46:37.In the Koran it says that's prohibited? What is prohibited is
:46:38. > :47:15.the act... you to be Muslim.
:47:16. > :47:19.That's wrong. I was brought up in an Islamic household. I am from a
:47:20. > :47:25.conservative Pakistani community. If my mum and dad can accept me, why
:47:26. > :47:28.can't the wider community accept me? The lady in the blue.
:47:29. > :47:32.APPLAUSE I think the question that you are
:47:33. > :47:38.asking is when will the Muslim community accept you as a gay
:47:39. > :47:45.person, accept gay or homosexuality. It is not accepted in Islam so the
:47:46. > :47:48.Muslim community will never accept homosexuality. You can be gay, but
:47:49. > :47:53.then at the same time, if you choose to follow a religion which prohibits
:47:54. > :47:59.homosexuality you can't ask when will they accept for you to be gay?
:48:00. > :48:05.Can I just say then? Yes. What are people like me meant to do? Gay
:48:06. > :48:09.teenagers, the suicide rate is going up. Homophobic crime is being
:48:10. > :48:15.unreported. It is because of attitudes like that that are causing
:48:16. > :48:18.people like me such dilemma. I will speak out and continue to speak out
:48:19. > :48:21.and you are right to identify however you want, what we are
:48:22. > :48:26.hearing right now and you can think whatever you want, the danger with
:48:27. > :48:33.literalism is insisting there is only one way of doing things. If we
:48:34. > :48:37.take literalism literally then only 200 years ago slavery was accepted
:48:38. > :48:45.and justified by religion. Let me finish. The Koran explicity and
:48:46. > :48:50.literally allows for slavery as does the Bible, but we no longer practise
:48:51. > :48:55.that because our attitudes has changed. There is no one way of
:48:56. > :49:03.interpreting things. Fed wants to -- fed wants to -- if he wants to be a
:49:04. > :49:10.Muslim. This gentleman says he is not going to discriminate against
:49:11. > :49:12.him. APPLAUSE
:49:13. > :49:17.God does not exclude anyone. That's a crucial first point. Everyone has
:49:18. > :49:22.the right to define for themselves what their identity is and we all
:49:23. > :49:26.have identities which quite often are contradictory. We have to find
:49:27. > :49:29.some way navigating that, of remaining faithful to our vision of
:49:30. > :49:33.God whilst remaining faithful to who we are. To add to that also, the
:49:34. > :49:39.rest of society and in particular the State, should not try to impose
:49:40. > :49:44.its view, its morality upon Islam. This is a conversation that has to
:49:45. > :49:48.happen within Islam. There might be room and there might be room for
:49:49. > :49:53.growth and change. You decide for yourself, but the idea of saying to
:49:54. > :49:57.someone, "You are a sinner." You cannot be part of this religion."
:49:58. > :50:04.That's anti-God because that's a decision that God makes, not you.
:50:05. > :50:08.APPLAUSE What you said about interpretation,
:50:09. > :50:12.you are pushing the idea that there is no true sperption of Islam. By --
:50:13. > :50:17.interpretation of Islam. You are saying that the people, the
:50:18. > :50:21.extremists, their interpretation of religion is valid. There is
:50:22. > :50:25.mainstream Islam. There are things that are universally accepted within
:50:26. > :50:29.Islam. The gentleman brought up the idea of drinking, of doing drugs,
:50:30. > :50:33.you know, those things are prohibited within Islam. I can chose
:50:34. > :50:40.not to do them or I can, but for me to go out and say, "I am a Muslim
:50:41. > :50:47.and I drink" And that should be accepted, that's not religion. You
:50:48. > :50:52.are conflating choice. He was born the way he is and I am sure he can
:50:53. > :51:01.speak for himself. Many, many Muslims would consider you a sinner
:51:02. > :51:06.for covering your face. This is all interpreted, just as you have got
:51:07. > :51:11.the right... No. No. No, look you are going into all sorts of
:51:12. > :51:15.different avenues now. Can I finish my point? They should you shunnedant
:51:16. > :51:27.be speaking in -- shouldn't be speaking in front of men. Oh come
:51:28. > :51:33.on. Osama Bin Laden was asked why do you go against Islamic prohibitions
:51:34. > :51:37.of killing women and children. He said, "Oh, the law is not set in
:51:38. > :51:46.stone." He believes in different interpretation of Islam. You can
:51:47. > :51:51.reinterpret it. In Islam, we believe in rules and principles. You can't
:51:52. > :51:58.just change those things. Yes, you have been very patient. I
:51:59. > :52:04.think the real question we should be asking is when will religion accept
:52:05. > :52:09.homosexuality? Narrowing it done to Muslims is not doing anyone any
:52:10. > :52:12.favours. APPLAUSE
:52:13. > :52:17.Let's get to the Power Bar. Some comments. This is the minority view
:52:18. > :52:23.though. You can't be gay in a Muslim. You are not a Muslim, you
:52:24. > :52:29.are just Asian. These are the messages coming in. "Being gay and
:52:30. > :52:37.Muslim is not right and it is disrespectful." # 1% of -- 71% of
:52:38. > :52:40.people watching say yes, it is all right to be a gay Muslim.
:52:41. > :52:44.APPLAUSE The gentleman up here.
:52:45. > :52:51.The question of the Bible and the Koran. In society, there are laws
:52:52. > :52:57.and we are here to abide by the laws. If Christians have the Bible
:52:58. > :53:00.and the Bible sets out rules that Christians should follow, you are
:53:01. > :53:05.either a Christian or not a Christian. Equally so, the Koran and
:53:06. > :53:10.the laws that are set for you to follow, you either accept or reject.
:53:11. > :53:15.On the basis of all these, people have rights to their choices. It is
:53:16. > :53:19.all about choice and the life you want to lead. You should not hold us
:53:20. > :53:24.to ransom because of the life you want to live. I am a Christian and I
:53:25. > :53:27.am also a lesbian and I believe that they are all made in God's image.
:53:28. > :53:33.APPLAUSE God has also given us the ability to
:53:34. > :53:38.judge for ourselves and to think for ourselves and that is the crucial
:53:39. > :53:43.point here. We will make the judgement that they want to follow a
:53:44. > :53:47.biblical or a Koran-led form of that faith. What I find odd is the idea
:53:48. > :53:51.that there is one true interpretation which can be applied
:53:52. > :53:56.across the religion or across the culture. For me, I deeply respect
:53:57. > :54:02.people who choose to live a chased life who are gay and who choose to
:54:03. > :54:07.live according to the biblical precepts, but I accept you have to.
:54:08. > :54:12.Those who choose to follow a different kind of relationship with
:54:13. > :54:18.God and people who say, "You ain't going to get into heaven." That's
:54:19. > :54:23.not my call. That's God's call to make. All religion practises love.
:54:24. > :54:28.For you to separate them from the religion is not practising love. You
:54:29. > :54:32.are not loving them for who they are. Love them regardless because at
:54:33. > :54:36.the end, you are practising one religion.
:54:37. > :54:40.The gentleman at the back there. The biggest problem here for Islam, I am
:54:41. > :54:47.going to speak as an outsider, I am a Catholic Christian, Islam, the
:54:48. > :54:54.issues is tolerance. I have friends who are Muslims. They would tell
:54:55. > :55:02.you, Islam is not about love, it is about rules, rules, rules. The issue
:55:03. > :55:07.here is what I call Protestant heritage. Islam, there are two many
:55:08. > :55:13.interpretations involved. The big issues are defying some dogma saying
:55:14. > :55:27.this is what it really means. You have got to tolerate that he is gay.
:55:28. > :55:32.I tolerate that you are a lesbian. I congratulated this gentleman three
:55:33. > :55:36.times for his nondiscrimination. I don't have a problem with him, but
:55:37. > :55:42.he has a problem with me. Is the issue here not that as soon as you
:55:43. > :55:47.start judging somebody else based on one factor of their personality and
:55:48. > :55:52.identity you get it into a really dangerous... That's a good place to
:55:53. > :55:55.end. That's it. We're off air until April, 10th. We are coming from
:55:56. > :56:02.Winchester and we will be joined by a special audience made up of two
:56:03. > :56:08.groups of people, those educated in a comprehensive system and those
:56:09. > :56:12.educated privately. Our audience questions page on Facebook has been
:56:13. > :56:16.reset and it is waiting for your questions. Click like on the ones
:56:17. > :56:19.you most want to see on the programme, we will count them up and
:56:20. > :56:25.see what comes top. This is your programme and we follow your agenda.
:56:26. > :56:31.From us in Tottenham, good night. APPLAUSE