:00:00. > :00:15.Hi Here's what's come up in Fetch for Free Speech - it looks as though
:00:16. > :00:40.the very last few moments are missing at the moment. Tonight we're
:00:41. > :00:43.trying something a bit different this evening. We have divided our
:00:44. > :00:47.audience into people who were privately educated and people who
:00:48. > :00:51.went to state school. We'll be hearing what they make of the issues
:00:52. > :00:54.of the week in a moment but we want to hear what you at home think too.
:00:55. > :01:00.Just tell Tina Daheley. Thanks Rick and a very good evening
:01:01. > :01:03.to all of you. Here are the hashtags, addresses, Twitter handles
:01:04. > :01:05.and so on that you'll need to join in tonight's debate online. Using
:01:06. > :01:08.the latest in Free Speech technology we will be making your Tweets appear
:01:09. > :01:12.here on this screen. I know we're blown away too. And
:01:13. > :01:14.here is our panel. Ruth Porter, from the right of centre think tank,
:01:15. > :01:17.Policy Exchange. Comedian and writer, Russell Kane. Member of pop
:01:18. > :01:19.super group fifth Story and potential Conservative Party
:01:20. > :01:26.candidate, Adam Rickitt. And leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett.
:01:27. > :01:33.And that's our panel. The first question comes from our Leaderboard.
:01:34. > :01:36.Tina? Yes, all week Free Speech viewers have been going to Free
:01:37. > :01:39.Speech on Facebook, clicking through to the Audience Questions page and
:01:40. > :01:42.looking through the many questions which have all been submitted by you
:01:43. > :01:46.at home. This is how it works: people click "like" on the questions
:01:47. > :01:49.they want to see on the show and we count up those likes to make this,
:01:50. > :01:52.the Leaderboard. Here it is published at 2pm this afternoon with
:01:53. > :01:55.the questions and the number of likes they received. The top
:01:56. > :01:58.question is from Chris Reacord who asked: "Why are working individuals
:01:59. > :02:10.worse off than people on benefits?" OK so that is the question. Let's
:02:11. > :02:14.start with you Adam. Well first it shouldn't be that way.
:02:15. > :02:17.The system should never mean that somebody who is a hard working
:02:18. > :02:22.family should be worse off than somebody sat on the dole out of
:02:23. > :02:25.choice. We have got to make a difference between if you're
:02:26. > :02:32.uncapable or unable to work, society should look after you. We are here
:02:33. > :02:39.to look after people. But if you can and it is your choice to play the
:02:40. > :02:42.system, that should be removed. The Government put a benefits cap on,
:02:43. > :02:49.which means for a family they only get ?500 a week. But if you're a
:02:50. > :02:55.family on dole, you're still earning ?26,000 thousand a year. If you're a
:02:56. > :03:06.working family you have to earn 30,000 to do the same. We need to
:03:07. > :03:11.say it is a benefits trap. If you're a mother with young children, how
:03:12. > :03:15.can you go out and work? Most of your money will go to child care. We
:03:16. > :03:20.should support individuals who are trying to work and bring it all
:03:21. > :03:27.together as a whole. This is good mood lighting. That is
:03:28. > :03:30.what you asked for? We have to be careful about
:03:31. > :03:36.generalising about people on welfare. People get payments for all
:03:37. > :03:41.kind of reasons. A lot of people who are getting benefits are also in
:03:42. > :03:44.work. There is a group of people working really hard, but they're
:03:45. > :03:48.struggling to make ends meet. A large part of it is because we are
:03:49. > :03:53.coming out of a difficult time for the country. What we saw during the
:03:54. > :03:57.recession was that people largely kept their jobs and we have seen
:03:58. > :04:00.employment go up, which is great. But it has been difficult, because
:04:01. > :04:03.the flip side is has meant as economic output went down, we saw
:04:04. > :04:07.wages go down and people were struggling and so we have ended up
:04:08. > :04:15.with a situation where people on low pay are getting benefits. The
:04:16. > :04:18.important question is what can we do to drive up wages, so we see people
:04:19. > :04:26.who are working hard not having to also be claiming benefits. I think
:04:27. > :04:29.what the encouraging thing is as we get economic growth, that is the
:04:30. > :04:32.best way of pushing up wages and that is what we need to focus on,
:04:33. > :04:40.the policies to push up economic growth.
:04:41. > :04:43.You disagree with cutting benefits? I think you have to look at the
:04:44. > :04:48.different types of benefits. About half of the benefit bill goes to
:04:49. > :04:55.older people. So some of that is things like the state pension. Some
:04:56. > :04:59.of it is on things like people who are of working age and are working,
:05:00. > :05:02.topping up their incomes. There is a group trying to find work and people
:05:03. > :05:10.who are on benefits because they're maybe physically or because of
:05:11. > :05:13.mental illness unable to work. The questions are different for all
:05:14. > :05:17.those four different groups. I think the group which perhaps where I do
:05:18. > :05:20.agree with Adam is the reforms which have been made have focussed rightly
:05:21. > :05:29.on that group who are currently looking for work. I think it is
:05:30. > :05:31.right that we say that we need a system which incentivises people
:05:32. > :05:37.getting into work, so you shouldn't be better off on benefits than in
:05:38. > :05:43.work. And through doing things like capping benefits at the average
:05:44. > :05:46.wage, we have made progress. Doing things like simplifying the benefits
:05:47. > :05:52.system and rolling out universal credit will help. There has been
:05:53. > :05:56.tremendous progress made. But I think also we need to be focussing
:05:57. > :06:00.on that group who are in work and saying how can we get more economic
:06:01. > :06:05.growth to push up wages. The gentleman here. Who I have come
:06:06. > :06:07.dressed as! I don't understand the obsession
:06:08. > :06:10.that people have with the small group and I mean really small
:06:11. > :06:17.percentage of people who are claiming benefits and they have big
:06:18. > :06:20.screen TVs. We should be looking at the massive companies who cheat out
:06:21. > :06:29.the taxpayer each year, taking millions of pounds. They still
:06:30. > :06:32.haven't paid back the money they owe the taxpayer, it is ridiculous we
:06:33. > :06:35.are victimising a small group of people and victimising a group of
:06:36. > :06:46.people on the tiny group of people... I don't think you should
:06:47. > :06:51.say let's just target star bucks. We have to be in it together. I
:06:52. > :06:57.don't buy the premise of the question.
:06:58. > :07:01.I am not sure you can sit around on benefits a week and do four weeks
:07:02. > :07:07.work and be worse off. It is part of the myth that there is this
:07:08. > :07:10.underclass. It is this monster that has been created so we have
:07:11. > :07:13.something to hate on and don't focus on the guys you're talking about.
:07:14. > :07:17.The real problem is you can't earn enough to meet the minimum bills and
:07:18. > :07:23.you have to have your wages topped up with benefits, because the
:07:24. > :07:33.minimum wage is too low. That what is they should fix.
:07:34. > :07:40.We have a minimum wage that is less than the living wage. And simply if
:07:41. > :07:44.you work full-time, you should earn enough to live on. We need to lift
:07:45. > :07:52.the minimum wage to make it a living wage. And also in terms of benefits,
:07:53. > :07:56.I disagree with the benefits cap. We are the six South richest economy in
:07:57. > :07:59.the world and we have vast numbers of wealthy people and benefits
:08:00. > :08:03.should be paid to people on the basis of need, not some artificial
:08:04. > :08:09.cap. The gentleman in the green shirt?
:08:10. > :08:15.I'm someone that has been unfortunate to be on state benefits
:08:16. > :08:18.and I can tell you it is ?72 a week. Unless your over 35 to receive
:08:19. > :08:24.housing benefit you can't get over ?68. We have an ever increasing
:08:25. > :08:29.homelessness problem. I have worked in a homeless hostel and they are
:08:30. > :08:31.not pleasant. We have people that are doctors, solicitors, highly
:08:32. > :08:40.qualified people claiming ESA and JSA. It is so and black and white to
:08:41. > :08:47.suggest people on benefits earn more than people working. I have lived
:08:48. > :08:50.it. And it is not true. There is a case that there are multiple
:08:51. > :08:58.benefits and you can have other benefits.
:08:59. > :09:05.Where does that benefit go, it goes to the landlord. It is some middle
:09:06. > :09:07.class person that owns the property. It is those private landlords that
:09:08. > :09:16.manipulate the situation because you're vulnerable and desperate and
:09:17. > :09:18.you take the first option. There are landlords out there that don't use
:09:19. > :09:24.the legal rent deposit scheme and people are losing their deposits
:09:25. > :09:30.while on benefits. While your on benefits to save for a deposit on a
:09:31. > :09:35.property is near on impossible. This lady here?
:09:36. > :09:38.What we need to remember is every story about somebody earning a lot
:09:39. > :09:42.on benefits there will be somebody who needs benefits to survive. We
:09:43. > :09:48.need to sort out those who are doing it to get Monday you and those who
:09:49. > :09:52.need it. The issue is the fact there is a
:09:53. > :09:55.growing issue of hunger in our country and food kind of places are
:09:56. > :09:58.having to grow to accommodate families who can't afford food, it
:09:59. > :10:12.shows the benefit cap is harming people who need it the most and we
:10:13. > :10:16.are neglecting the lower classes. There are half a million people
:10:17. > :10:24.dependent on food benefits. The Red Cross is supplying the UK and that
:10:25. > :10:30.is a disgrace. The gentleman here?
:10:31. > :10:33.It is, we have seen programmes such as Benefits Street and it is a
:10:34. > :10:37.disgrace that we are subjected to this sort of, we take a minority and
:10:38. > :10:40.an issue and the media uses this policy of scaremongering to make us
:10:41. > :10:50.well, in the case of newspapers or Channel 4 or five, whoever did it,
:10:51. > :10:53.to make us watch their adverts. We see it on benefits, immigration and
:10:54. > :10:57.Europe and what needs to happen is the media need to get back in line
:10:58. > :11:07.and be told you can't do this and create this bubble of fear.
:11:08. > :11:21.Does anyone favour here of the benefits cap? Yes?
:11:22. > :11:25.Well... I'm in favour of the cap as a principle. The principle that
:11:26. > :11:30.nobody should be earning more on benefits than they do on work. But
:11:31. > :11:34.we need to be looking at tax rates as well. Because the second you earn
:11:35. > :11:42.over ?10,000 in cash, you're paying 20% tax and national insurance and
:11:43. > :11:47.VAT and everything else. Tax rates are too high. Now, I agree with the
:11:48. > :11:51.gentleman down here that big companies are avoiding tax. They're
:11:52. > :11:56.doing it legally, because the tax system is too complicated. It need
:11:57. > :11:59.to be ironed out, loopholes removed and with the additional revenue that
:12:00. > :12:06.generates you can bring tax down for everyone. Especially at the lower
:12:07. > :12:11.end. Would you agree?
:12:12. > :12:14.Yes the emphasis should be put on creating a situation in which
:12:15. > :12:18.benefits are not needed and wages don't need to be topped up. So
:12:19. > :12:24.everyone is earning what they should be earning to live.
:12:25. > :12:28.The gentleman here. We live in a world where the rich
:12:29. > :12:34.get richer and the poor get poorer. We see that happening each day. In
:12:35. > :12:36.my opinion, we need to fix that problem of you know some rich
:12:37. > :12:39.person, rich fat person, not offending fat people, but rich
:12:40. > :12:43.person earning millions and somebody just you know living on the street
:12:44. > :12:58.and not being able to actually buy a bread roll for themselves. I think
:12:59. > :13:05.the main problem is that we need to sort these rich people out and make
:13:06. > :13:10.them pay. Not all rich people are fat and
:13:11. > :13:15.vice-versa. I am not saying big fat cats is
:13:16. > :13:21.right. But it is the trickle down effect. But there is becoming, there
:13:22. > :13:24.has always been a level of higher class, middle class lower class and
:13:25. > :13:29.now there is this under class where people are not even seeing the
:13:30. > :13:37.poverty. That is where we need to direct the support and get people
:13:38. > :13:41.out of this trap. We need to get companies to be
:13:42. > :13:48.paying their taxes. George Osborne boasts he has brought the rate down
:13:49. > :13:51.to 20%. But that is the same as small business and these companies
:13:52. > :13:54.are paying minimum wage, zero hours contracts and collecting enormous
:13:55. > :14:06.profits and deposits them in tax havens.
:14:07. > :14:15.Interesting messages. From Billy, people on benefits are too lazy to
:14:16. > :14:19.find work annoy me so much. They're just too high and too easy
:14:20. > :14:24.to access. What would your response be Russell?
:14:25. > :14:28.I grew up in a council street so I think I'm qualified to comment.
:14:29. > :14:32.Typical council street, there are were a few people who were, ponces
:14:33. > :14:36.was the word we used. But most are doing the best they can to survive
:14:37. > :14:39.and when that best isn't good enough because the system is skewed in
:14:40. > :14:42.people higher in the income chain, these people don't exist there is
:14:43. > :14:46.not this army of spraying out children, there is a few cases that
:14:47. > :15:09.turned into poverty porn and lead to hateful comments like you read out.
:15:10. > :15:13.Greenberg when I think both this audience should be angry at both
:15:14. > :15:17.Adam and the tweeter. You are claiming there is a class of people
:15:18. > :15:21.sponging on benefits. I said a lot of people have slipped
:15:22. > :15:24.below the radar. There are nearly one million young
:15:25. > :15:28.people unemployed. I used to be editor of the Guardian weekly. I met
:15:29. > :15:31.those people. They usually had a degree, a Masters, a couple of
:15:32. > :15:35.languages, they had been an intern and there were desperate to work for
:15:36. > :15:38.me for nothing. There are huge numbers of people who are doing
:15:39. > :15:43.everything right and can't get paid jobs.
:15:44. > :15:49.Exactly, I agree. There are people who cannot get jobs which is why we
:15:50. > :15:52.have jobseeker's allowance. The question about this was not about
:15:53. > :15:57.whites are we not supporting people, it was supporting people when they
:15:58. > :16:05.are sponging the system. It is a tiny minority.
:16:06. > :16:08.Compared to the tax evaders. That is not the question we were
:16:09. > :16:15.asked. Corporate tax evasion should be put right. But they also employ
:16:16. > :16:18.and put money into the system. You are saying the big corporate bosses
:16:19. > :16:22.only pay minimum wage. They are employing thousands of people as
:16:23. > :16:25.well. They should be paying the higher rate of tax, 45% rate of tax,
:16:26. > :16:30.but you can't knock these people because they are paying their fair
:16:31. > :16:33.dues. We are talking about people's
:16:34. > :16:36.ability to earn a decent living and we're talking about the tax and
:16:37. > :16:44.benefits system but there is another important side to this debate, which
:16:45. > :16:48.is the cost of living. It is not just about the amount of money that
:16:49. > :16:52.you have got, it is about what that amount of money that will buy for
:16:53. > :16:59.you. Feeding and housing benefits come up quite a few times. If we
:17:00. > :17:02.look at child care, food costs, particularly housing, the difficulty
:17:03. > :17:05.is that at this time during the recession when we saw wages go down,
:17:06. > :17:09.although they are coming back up again, we have seen the cost of
:17:10. > :17:13.living go up for people and if we take housing.
:17:14. > :17:18.It is a toxic combination. Real wages falling, the cost of living
:17:19. > :17:22.rising. We need to be more imaginative about
:17:23. > :17:28.this whole discussion and say, how do we reduce the cost of housing?
:17:29. > :17:31.We haven't got time to be imaginative now. The next question,
:17:32. > :17:36.being asked from the studio audience.
:17:37. > :17:38.Shouldn't the best education be available to everybody in the
:17:39. > :17:42.country, however rich or poor they are?
:17:43. > :17:48.Shouldn't everybody be entitled to the best education, no matter how
:17:49. > :17:51.rich or poor they are? Russell. This is a question about is it moral
:17:52. > :17:56.to have private schools, I suppose, beneath the lines. We have a private
:17:57. > :18:00.school system, it is called Comprehensive Schools. If you want
:18:01. > :18:05.to go near a decent Comprehensive Schools you have to buy the mansion
:18:06. > :18:08.near the Comprehensive School. It is de facto private anyway because you
:18:09. > :18:14.are paying to be near a school that is good. The thing that was the
:18:15. > :18:16.generation before mine that was around, you were tested on your
:18:17. > :18:20.ability and scooped into grammar schools, which a lot of people are
:18:21. > :18:24.against but the reality is now that if you want a decent education you
:18:25. > :18:27.have to pay for it, whether at a private school, or a nice area in
:18:28. > :18:32.Surrey and be nearer comprehensive that get good results. If you are in
:18:33. > :18:55.a comprehensive near a council estate,
:18:56. > :19:00.a comprehensive near a council system. It has a shortage of places.
:19:01. > :19:04.In Surrey, it is nearly a quarter of people who go to private school. The
:19:05. > :19:07.solution, you have grammar schools but you have to reform the system
:19:08. > :19:10.more widely so we don't have this ridiculous notion that if you're not
:19:11. > :19:14.getting A levels you are a failure, that if you want to learn a trade or
:19:15. > :19:22.skill, in Sweden or Germany it is lauded and praised and just as
:19:23. > :19:25.worthy. We have in a trade or skill, in Sweden or Germany it is lauded
:19:26. > :19:28.and praised and just as worthy. We have an aberrant system where you
:19:29. > :19:31.are told if you cannot write an essay you are not worth anything.
:19:32. > :19:35.Everyone should have the best education. The way to do that is not
:19:36. > :19:38.abolish private schools but to make the state system works so fewer
:19:39. > :19:40.people want to go to private schools.
:19:41. > :19:44.People don't remember what it is like to be aged between 11-16. When
:19:45. > :19:47.you are that age, I don't know about anyone else, I just wanted to be
:19:48. > :19:51.popular and fit in. Most of us want to fit in. If you are dumped in a
:19:52. > :19:54.bin, where the people who are popular are the hardest, who has
:19:55. > :19:57.taken drugs, your results and everything else goes like that. I
:19:58. > :20:00.know the grammars system is immoral and people have been told they have
:20:01. > :20:04.failed, but if I was around the chance to be around as a bright,
:20:05. > :20:09.poor kids, I might have done better at school. That is why social
:20:10. > :20:13.mobility has gone down since the 60s. If you are born in a council
:20:14. > :20:16.estate now, at the top of a tower block, you have less chance of
:20:17. > :20:25.getting to Oxford than 30 years ago and that cannot be right.
:20:26. > :20:29.This question of who gets into Oxford is an important one because
:20:30. > :20:33.it illustrates something. What we know at the moment is quite commonly
:20:34. > :20:36.talked about, at the moment there is the same number, there is more
:20:37. > :20:38.children getting into Oxford or Cambridge who went to one school,
:20:39. > :20:48.Westminster College, than children across the entire school system, who
:20:49. > :20:51.are on free school meals. I think that just shows the scale of the
:20:52. > :20:54.problem that we have got. The reality is for most families they
:20:55. > :20:58.are never going to be able to afford private schools, so the question is
:20:59. > :21:05.how we make state schools as good as they possibly can be and it is
:21:06. > :21:07.partly a question of expectation. Actually expecting people and
:21:08. > :21:13.encouraging them that they can do well.
:21:14. > :21:18.The fact is this government, each year cutting funding to state
:21:19. > :21:23.education in real terms by 3.5%. We have to invest in quality schools.
:21:24. > :21:28.What we need is everyone to be able to go to a good school near them. We
:21:29. > :21:30.don't want a situation where you have to cherry picked, parents
:21:31. > :21:34.travel and children create enormous traffic jams, where people who know
:21:35. > :21:39.how to play the system get a good school. We need a good local school
:21:40. > :21:42.for everybody. If you take a contrast with private schools, nine
:21:43. > :21:54.pupils per teacher, government schools, 22 pupils per teacher. It
:21:55. > :21:57.is no wonder the results are different.
:21:58. > :22:00.What we are seeing is academies and free school academies and free
:22:01. > :22:05.school (APPLAUSE) Academies and free schools are washing up the quality
:22:06. > :22:10.of teaching. Know they are not. They are
:22:11. > :22:14.disasters. What we need is local, democratic control of schools.
:22:15. > :22:27.It is exactly, free schools and academies are devolving more power.
:22:28. > :22:30.Which is what you are saying we need.
:22:31. > :22:34.One at a time! Tina, what have you got?
:22:35. > :22:41.This has come in, Comprehensive Schools do care about their students
:22:42. > :22:45.as people. The best education should be given
:22:46. > :22:50.to everybody, it is a case of giving it to people who want to achieve so
:22:51. > :22:53.maybe we should be selective. Finland has proven that children do
:22:54. > :22:58.better when not subject to standardised tests. Why don't we
:22:59. > :23:07.follow their example? Exactly, it is a sausage machine,
:23:08. > :23:14.trying to shove people through. Ruth!
:23:15. > :23:18.What we have seen in terms of standardised tests is it is a way of
:23:19. > :23:21.making sure that our schools are delivering a high quality of
:23:22. > :23:24.education and what we know is it is things like improving the quality of
:23:25. > :23:27.teachers aren't getting the best and brightest into schools teaching that
:23:28. > :23:33.actually makes the real difference for children. We need to be finding
:23:34. > :23:36.of making sure particularly in the most deprived areas, that is where
:23:37. > :23:41.the best teachers are going, into those schools.
:23:42. > :23:45.Adam. I was lucky in that my dad worked
:23:46. > :23:49.really hard and sent me to boarding school when I was seven. I can say
:23:50. > :23:56.one thing, there is this myth that the best teachers are going to
:23:57. > :24:00.private schools. They are not. The teachers that tend to go to private
:24:01. > :24:03.schools tend to be the ones who go there because they want an easy
:24:04. > :24:06.life. The state schools are the ones who want to inspire and they are
:24:07. > :24:10.inspired themselves. Flatulence was the most interesting thing my
:24:11. > :24:23.teachers taught me at school. We go to boarding school, you are inspired
:24:24. > :24:26.themselves. We go to boarding school, you towards results. We need
:24:27. > :24:29.to bring in that same thing to the state school system. The education
:24:30. > :24:32.is there, the teachers are there, but we need the support helping
:24:33. > :24:35.children to reach their full capability.
:24:36. > :24:38.Muscle. Until you skew the balance of
:24:39. > :24:41.background versus education, we have this thing called the PISA tests,
:24:42. > :24:44.which shows how much the background and the education influences you,
:24:45. > :24:47.your mum and dad are half the influence, the school is the other
:24:48. > :24:51.half. If you have not got a mum and dad who take you to the opera,
:24:52. > :24:58.between June and September, your brain goes... While the middle-class
:24:59. > :25:01.kids are still related. If you put those people together, it doesn't
:25:02. > :25:05.matter how good the teachers are, how good the school is, there is a
:25:06. > :25:10.limit to how much you can do. Everyone has the same messed up
:25:11. > :25:15.attitude towards education. There is a muddling up of concepts, equality
:25:16. > :25:20.and fairness. Sometimes it is not the right thing to make everyone the
:25:21. > :25:23.same and equal. Why don't we look at what people can do and all the
:25:24. > :25:27.people who love maths and English, they go to a maths and English
:25:28. > :25:33.school, the arty people go to an arty school. Instead of, everyone
:25:34. > :25:42.has to have the same. Free schools then. You are in favour
:25:43. > :25:46.of free schools. It is social, being at school. You
:25:47. > :25:49.have lots of people, lots of types, it does not matter if you are
:25:50. > :25:53.streaming, the law of the jungle goes on. I could not wait to restart
:25:54. > :25:57.my education at 16 and do it on my own, where I could be proud to get
:25:58. > :26:00.high grades instead of being bullied.
:26:01. > :26:04.If children go through state school and go to university, they tend to
:26:05. > :26:10.outperform those who have been to a private school.
:26:11. > :26:13.How can Michael Gove expect state schools to be the same as private,
:26:14. > :26:17.when there is one teacher to ten children, and in a state school, one
:26:18. > :26:26.adult to 30 children or more and nowadays they don't even have T8s.
:26:27. > :26:31.That argument is specious, you can have a large class and do
:26:32. > :26:35.wonderfully. If you want to get a bunch of boys who learn about maths,
:26:36. > :26:40.they learn about maths, as simple as that.
:26:41. > :26:44.The lady at the back. I think there is a problem with
:26:45. > :26:47.society and the structure of it as a whole, that it is a meritocracy I
:26:48. > :26:50.understand, I understand that conditionis good and it drives
:26:51. > :26:54.change and passion, but if you focus on grades alone than we are not
:26:55. > :27:04.going to get the best out of everybody. People are so much more
:27:05. > :27:11.complicated and complex than just achieving the best results. I agree
:27:12. > :27:16.with Russell, send people to different schools that build on
:27:17. > :27:22.their strengths and change society. It is run by the cream skimmed top
:27:23. > :27:28.in drive at schools. Interesting word order, I get the
:27:29. > :27:30.idea. I personally believe that I
:27:31. > :27:33.completely agree with you, schools and colleges are so focused on
:27:34. > :27:39.achieving academic excellence that students' well-being does not come
:27:40. > :27:42.into play. I go to a really good sixth form and I am not an A*
:27:43. > :27:48.student, I am not even talk properly because I am not going to achieve
:27:49. > :27:54.that academic excellence. There is a huge flaw in the education system,
:27:55. > :27:57.especially under Michael Gove. I really think it has become so
:27:58. > :28:06.experimental and we need more investment in our education.
:28:07. > :28:14.Education is the key to empowerment. APPLAUSE Go on.
:28:15. > :28:17.Me? Why not?
:28:18. > :28:21.We are talking negatively about state schools and my state school
:28:22. > :28:26.was brilliant. We should not forget about that. You have to go to
:28:27. > :28:30.private school to do well. It is not about that. You can go to a state
:28:31. > :28:33.school and do really well. But if you are in a challenging
:28:34. > :28:37.area, some state schools do fantastic but the rule of thumb is,
:28:38. > :28:40.come on, guys, if you are in a challenged area and everyone is from
:28:41. > :28:43.a challenged family, it is a de facto private system where I am
:28:44. > :28:46.spending ?1 million to live in Woodford Green because I know the
:28:47. > :28:50.competence of school is going to be good, I might as well go to private
:28:51. > :28:53.school and save money on the house. I agree with what you say about
:28:54. > :28:57.splitting people up to do what they enjoy, up to 14, I like maths, let's
:28:58. > :29:06.do maths, I like sport, let's do sport.
:29:07. > :29:14.You would not say to Usain Bolt, have the same PE.
:29:15. > :29:17.If someone is into maths, initial history, celebrate it. Let's give
:29:18. > :29:22.help rather than shame them the way secondary moderns do.
:29:23. > :29:28.The gentleman with the white T-shirt on the private side?
:29:29. > :29:31.I want to point out the original question, should everyone have a
:29:32. > :29:35.fair and equal education? It would be a great idea and make sure we get
:29:36. > :29:39.the best people rest jobs but would it be possible and as Charles Murray
:29:40. > :29:42.says, no matter how we dress it up, 15% of the population will be below
:29:43. > :29:50.to intelligence so they can't get high-ranking jobs and a lot of
:29:51. > :29:53.money. Someone has to be a cleaner and someone has to work in the lower
:29:54. > :30:02.classes. We can't have everyone achieving highly.
:30:03. > :30:06.I don't think private schools are all may make out to be. There is too
:30:07. > :30:09.much focus on academics and when it comes to mental health there is too
:30:10. > :30:16.much strength, because you don't get the grades you're out.
:30:17. > :30:20.Yes? I have been fortunate enough to go
:30:21. > :30:26.to public school and some very good and very not so good state schools.
:30:27. > :30:32.I think the divide, as soon as you come in as a child, you have that
:30:33. > :30:36.class divide. You say these fat cats and people on the bottom line. If
:30:37. > :30:40.you put them all in the same schools with the over attentive mums and
:30:41. > :30:51.with kids who are not as well off, the quality would rise.
:30:52. > :30:54.Education isn't just about, the school isn't completely in control
:30:55. > :30:59.of your children's education. It is parents.
:31:00. > :31:01.We were talking about international... International
:31:02. > :31:05.comparisons and we have far unequal outcomes than most of the rest of
:31:06. > :31:12.the world. People who are rich get better outcops. That is because we
:31:13. > :31:14.have an unequal society. Think of the dreadful bedroom tax and we're
:31:15. > :31:24.asking children of the same gender to share bedrooms. They share until
:31:25. > :31:27.they're 16. How does the 12-year-old do their homework when the
:31:28. > :31:34.six-year-old is rung around and playing. So we have inequality of
:31:35. > :31:37.outcomes. That is what parents need to give
:31:38. > :31:45.support on. At private school the school fill that role of giving you
:31:46. > :31:50.support and push you. The parents need to do that as well. You can't
:31:51. > :31:53.drop your kids off and say that is it, I wash my hands.
:31:54. > :32:01.And the parents working on minimum...
:32:02. > :32:07.I'm talking when they're at home at the weekend.
:32:08. > :32:10.Now lots of people are talking about politics being dominated by people
:32:11. > :32:22.who are privatery educated and this viewer says it is a problem.
:32:23. > :32:25.Now to our next debate. And just to alert you our next debate is on
:32:26. > :32:28.pornography so if that's something you find offensive you might want to
:32:29. > :32:31.switch over. But if you like it hit record. The question comes from
:32:32. > :32:34.journalist and former dominatrix Nichi Hodgson who Free Speech spoke
:32:35. > :32:43.to this week. The first time I spanked somebody I
:32:44. > :32:50.was about 24. I had a very conventional childhood and I went to
:32:51. > :32:54.a good girls' school. Got A grades. Went to university to study
:32:55. > :32:57.literature. When I came to London to work in the media, I was an unpaid
:32:58. > :33:03.intern and had to general mate some money and became assistant to a
:33:04. > :33:11.domicatrix. It was through this work that I was
:33:12. > :33:16.absorbed into the BBSM world. Some say watching porn can be a
:33:17. > :33:22.feminist act. But it has been a myth. For so many years that women
:33:23. > :33:26.are not visually turned on by pornography.
:33:27. > :33:30.The more we can do to counter that by viewing porn and buying it and
:33:31. > :33:33.encourage people to make the porn we want to watch.
:33:34. > :33:40.Lads' magazines don't cause rape and neither does porn.
:33:41. > :33:49.The mass market stuff that most of us consume is of a poor quality.
:33:50. > :33:51.So that there are some problems with the industry, but we didn't stop
:33:52. > :33:56.wearing trainers because we found they were made in sweat shops.
:33:57. > :34:01.The reason we are frightened of it is because we think desire is
:34:02. > :34:12.immoral. Porn throws back at us our darkest sexual fantasies.
:34:13. > :34:18.It is a way of exploring things that society doesn't allow you to do with
:34:19. > :34:22.a regular partner. I don't understand why the age of
:34:23. > :34:26.pornography is 18, it should be 16 like the age of sexual consent.
:34:27. > :34:35.The question I want asked is porn really bad for us?
:34:36. > :34:41.It is just eight. 30 so there are certain words we can't use during
:34:42. > :34:45.this debate. But I can't tell you what they are. Natalie?
:34:46. > :34:50.I would say with one in six people in Britain using porn it is not
:34:51. > :34:56.innately bad. Why is that?
:34:57. > :35:00.There is no evidence that it is bad. But it is bad for people who haven't
:35:01. > :35:08.had good sexual education in school and don't realise it is fantasy. One
:35:09. > :35:14.things we saw the Daily Telegraph having a campaign to improve sex and
:35:15. > :35:18.relationship education in schools. It is a fact that the guidelines
:35:19. > :35:22.were written in 2000 and the world has changed a lot, particularly
:35:23. > :35:25.online since then. We need to look at the fact too many people with
:35:26. > :35:29.things like lads' Mags are subjected to pornography when they don't want
:35:30. > :35:32.to see them and page three and the green MP got told to cover up her
:35:33. > :35:40.chest, because she was wearing a no more page three T-shirt.
:35:41. > :35:48.But it is five to have page three in Parliament.
:35:49. > :35:52.It is down to education. People are not taught about sexual education in
:35:53. > :35:56.school. I can remember my sexual education cast and somebody came in
:35:57. > :36:00.and gave me a plastic blue penis and said stuck a condom on it and said
:36:01. > :36:06.well done, now do that when you have sex, or don't have sex. If somebody
:36:07. > :36:12.tells you not to do something, you immediately think I might do that.
:36:13. > :36:20.So instead teach about the proper which to protect yourselves and get
:36:21. > :36:27.sex taught properly. And discuss relationships.
:36:28. > :36:32.The fact that people have no knowledge that when you get pregnant
:36:33. > :36:35.you have got to look after the kid. This is a bit off topic. We are
:36:36. > :36:38.talking about whether porn is bad for us?
:36:39. > :36:47.The reason people start, I'm a comedian so I have to be careful. I
:36:48. > :36:50.don't think porn has affected me. But it is the main place I learned
:36:51. > :36:58.about sex, but it is linked, because teaching sex education at 14 it is a
:36:59. > :37:06.cringing and embarrassing. It needs to be taught in primary schools like
:37:07. > :37:11.in other countries. All I got was a drop and run from my mum, a leaflet
:37:12. > :37:14.and her running out. If an eight-year-old girl says at primary
:37:15. > :37:18.school where do babies come from and we are in a bizarre situation where
:37:19. > :37:28.the teacher says you will have to come back at 14 with the baby.
:37:29. > :37:32.It is Norway or Sweden their rate of teenage pregnancy is one 20th of the
:37:33. > :37:40.UK and they teach sex education in year one or two. But it is what type
:37:41. > :37:48.of porn children are given access to. It is oo easy. When I was 14 I
:37:49. > :37:55.found a job application to be a porn star.
:37:56. > :38:02.How did it go? I'm wait gt for the reply. I feel
:38:03. > :38:05.the schools and the parents, if they can address their children and let
:38:06. > :38:12.them know before they're exposed to pornography they can realise it is
:38:13. > :38:17.not what it is like. Nichi, you posed the question.
:38:18. > :38:23.Is porn bad for us. Something that keeps coming up is the difference
:38:24. > :38:26.between porn sex and real sex. And one person's real sex is somebody
:38:27. > :38:34.else's porn sex. We have to really...
:38:35. > :38:37.Stop looking at her! We have to turn on its head all
:38:38. > :38:43.these ideas that we think we know are true about pornography and sex.
:38:44. > :38:46.So many of us have imbiemed ridgeous -- imbibed religious teaching and
:38:47. > :38:50.porn becomes a place where we pour our fears and desires into it and
:38:51. > :39:06.then we want to torn it off and -- turn it off and society is telling
:39:07. > :39:09.us it is wrong. So our relationship with pornography is complicated,
:39:10. > :39:14.because our relationship with sex is and that comes back to education.
:39:15. > :39:18.Until we are educated to accept your desire. Just because you have a
:39:19. > :39:24.feeling doesn't mean you have to do it. The same with porn. If we
:39:25. > :39:27.understand the difference, we are going to have a massive problem with
:39:28. > :39:36.the way we consume porn and the we we frame it is always negative.
:39:37. > :39:42.We did a poll of the audience. You have the results.
:39:43. > :39:48.Yes we asked people about porn. 80% of people have seen porn. 39% in
:39:49. > :39:56.the past week. And in gender, 59% of men and 20% of women watched porn in
:39:57. > :40:01.the last week. The gentleman here?
:40:02. > :40:09.What worries me is whether porn is good for us, but what the Government
:40:10. > :40:12.will do. It becomes an issue of sensor ship and then where are the
:40:13. > :40:17.powers going to lead you and will you live in a society where we can't
:40:18. > :40:20.do what we want and we are going to be sopped by doing -- stopped by
:40:21. > :40:28.doing things like porn and what else. Censor ship is the crux of the
:40:29. > :40:33.problem. That has already happened with the
:40:34. > :40:38.filtering that came in in January. It is not just adult content it is a
:40:39. > :40:44.category that is undefined. Access to any sex education information and
:40:45. > :40:49.information about war. It may turn you into a terrorist. I hope you
:40:50. > :40:52.create a bomb. Once you have the broad categories and the Government
:40:53. > :41:00.has a register of how we are accessing the internet, that is not
:41:01. > :41:06.democracy. That is the thin end of the wedge and not the end we want to
:41:07. > :41:11.be at. This lady here.
:41:12. > :41:15.It is a fine line between looking at the news on some like, say you're
:41:16. > :41:20.looking at the news on something that isn't the BBC porn flashes up.
:41:21. > :41:22.It is a fine line between children encountering that and internet
:41:23. > :41:31.providers helping parents to stop that and removing porn from the
:41:32. > :41:35.internet. We have got to find a way too control it.
:41:36. > :41:41.If you give parent sense of security a and you don't have to worry about
:41:42. > :41:44.what your children are doing online. Porn is not the only danger and a
:41:45. > :41:51.lot of 12-year-olds are more clever at the internet than their parents.
:41:52. > :41:59.People need the education, the help and the parental oversight. Any
:42:00. > :42:05.filter will give people a false sense of security.
:42:06. > :42:10.It is true even's better than their parents at the internet. But maybe
:42:11. > :42:15.we have to educate the parents on how to look after their children.
:42:16. > :42:21.Mo parents don't want to talk about porn, because they don't know what
:42:22. > :42:25.they think about it. Ofcom, which regulates contents did a study in
:42:26. > :42:27.2005 and decided that the best way to protect children from adult
:42:28. > :42:35.content was to give them sex education and get their parents to
:42:36. > :42:42.talk to them. Those are the key areas.
:42:43. > :42:47.I work for a charity and run a sex and relationship education
:42:48. > :42:50.programme. We go into schools and talk to young people about sex and
:42:51. > :42:54.relationships and pornography and what we hear a lot is young people
:42:55. > :42:57.saying they use pornography as a form of sex education and what is
:42:58. > :43:00.worrying, you talked about the difference between real sex and porn
:43:01. > :43:09.sex, but there are myths perpetuated by porn. I asked them what they
:43:10. > :43:13.learned from porn and some of it I can't repeat, but the root of it is
:43:14. > :43:16.education and talking to parents and they feel a able to talk to their
:43:17. > :43:19.children to work their internet filters so they feel they're
:43:20. > :43:30.confident and to be giving young people a form to discuss these
:43:31. > :43:33.things. It is the secrecy that can lead to some of the problems, as
:43:34. > :43:39.well as addiction and things like that. I was in Parliament on Monday
:43:40. > :43:43.speaking about this and had a letter in The Times. We need to think about
:43:44. > :43:51.it as a public health inquiry, because of the issues of addiction.
:43:52. > :43:56.Porn addiction is highly contested. The American manual has removed it
:43:57. > :43:59.from its definitions. We have this debate about porn addiction like an
:44:00. > :44:02.addiction to cocaine. There is a real difference between a physical
:44:03. > :44:14.depend si and the chemicals firing you up and porn doesn't work like
:44:15. > :44:19.that. We can't use the younger generation
:44:20. > :44:26.as a guinea pig. Do you want there is an age where it
:44:27. > :44:31.can mess you up for life? There is no evidence. I think the
:44:32. > :44:34.main issue is if you watch porn as your form of sex education and Dons
:44:35. > :44:38.understand about consent, the key word, then you practise what you see
:44:39. > :44:46.in porn on women, you're not going to have healthy relationships. But
:44:47. > :44:52.this doesn't mean that porn can't be used to educate, because it can.
:44:53. > :44:59.Some porn is educational. And you can create a new kind of porn.
:45:00. > :45:05.Who does think that porn is bad for us?
:45:06. > :45:12.Yes, the gentleman in the white shirt.
:45:13. > :45:16.I don't want to be smacked in the face! Yes, I do think Paul is bad
:45:17. > :45:21.because it can totally give you a misconception of what a relationship
:45:22. > :45:25.is about -- porn. If you watch it from a young age, I do worry about
:45:26. > :45:29.kids and they are eight years old and can stumble across it and think
:45:30. > :45:32.what they are doing to each other is a good thing and they are getting a
:45:33. > :45:39.relationship and doing it and, oh, wait, that is not how it works.
:45:40. > :45:44.Everybody can agree, it is monitoring it. It is how we can stop
:45:45. > :45:47.younger children from seeing it. Back in my day before the Internet
:45:48. > :45:53.started you had movies, they had 18 or 15 ratings and it was hard to get
:45:54. > :45:56.to a cinema to see an 18 moving. Because the web has moved on much
:45:57. > :45:59.faster than those bodies trying to police it, we need to bring in
:46:00. > :46:04.better policing and it should not be done by one company because that is
:46:05. > :46:08.too much power. It needs to be the parents who do it but it needs to be
:46:09. > :46:11.more readily available. When the government tried to bring it in
:46:12. > :46:15.recently you have the NSPCC being blocked, child lying being blocked
:46:16. > :46:20.the course of the word abuse. We need to make sure it is much more
:46:21. > :46:28.dependent on families. Parents need to be what -- more aware and alert
:46:29. > :46:32.about what kids are doing. The largest study of children in
:46:33. > :46:35.Europe done by a body called EU kids online, more than 22,000 young
:46:36. > :46:37.people between 9-16, 57% of them said that porn had positively
:46:38. > :46:45.impacted their lives and 1% reported it negatively impacted. We need to
:46:46. > :46:49.be careful about talking about children's problems with porn. We
:46:50. > :46:58.are too quick to say isn't it terrible, but we need to ask them
:46:59. > :47:03.themselves what their problems. Or what problems might be expressed
:47:04. > :47:08.later in life. Porn poisons your brain. It is like us women have to
:47:09. > :47:10.be like that but most of their women -- most of those women are
:47:11. > :47:14.practically getting raped. Absolutely not, they are consensual
:47:15. > :47:18.and there and getting paid. The idea that all women have to look like
:47:19. > :47:24.that, porn has a huge amount of body diversity. Any body part you don't
:47:25. > :47:28.like about yourself, type it into Google with the word porn and it
:47:29. > :47:32.will come up. Somebody out there thinks it is wonderful and wants to
:47:33. > :47:36.see more of it. There is nothing more positive than that. We have to
:47:37. > :47:40.get past the idea that women are objects to be used in pornography.
:47:41. > :47:48.Plenty of women like to experience certain sex acts that other people
:47:49. > :47:52.might find some educated. Porn infiltrates a lot of areas of
:47:53. > :47:58.our lives that we are not aware of and it is not true that it is just
:47:59. > :48:01.about the individual. 57% might has positively impacted their lives but
:48:02. > :48:12.that does not survey the other people. I think it is iffy.
:48:13. > :48:17.Women's magazines has more to say than porn does. There are so many
:48:18. > :48:22.different shapes and sizes and ethnicities in porn.
:48:23. > :48:28.I don't think you can categorise porn into black and white scenario.
:48:29. > :48:32.Instead of trying to eradicate it, it should be more integrated into
:48:33. > :48:41.our society and work on how to make it more ethical.
:48:42. > :48:43.Still bobbing porn has become integrated into our society. We
:48:44. > :48:48.can't define or draw boundaries around what it is. We have seen this
:48:49. > :48:51.incredible sexualisation of our society and on the one hand that
:48:52. > :48:55.openness and ability to talk about sex is a great thing, but it has
:48:56. > :48:58.thrown up all kinds of different cultural challenges and yes, we can
:48:59. > :49:02.police and try and protect children to an extent from that, but if you
:49:03. > :49:05.look at the row over things like the lyrics around songs like blurred
:49:06. > :49:08.lines just before Christmas, there are so many examples we can think
:49:09. > :49:11.of, things like not just music videos, just the sexualisation in
:49:12. > :49:13.general of things in our society, has led to this kind of
:49:14. > :49:28.commodification of sex. It has led to a kind of misunderstanding of
:49:29. > :49:31.relationships. It has led to us being talked about
:49:32. > :49:37.issues around body image for people, unrealistic expectations of each
:49:38. > :49:39.other. There is all kinds of broader, cultural issues which we
:49:40. > :49:42.can't, there is nothing the government can do about them, there
:49:43. > :49:49.are things we need to grapple with and work out what that looks like
:49:50. > :49:57.for us. Quite a few people fake porn is bad
:49:58. > :50:00.for you. To become EU here horrid and file
:50:01. > :50:01.words about porn, women are just objects.
:50:02. > :50:05.We should celebrate an industry where members are exploited.
:50:06. > :50:12.We cannot differentiate between fantasy and real relationships.
:50:13. > :50:15.Most of us, by the time the hormones hit between 12-14, we have not got
:50:16. > :50:18.the information in their ready to deal with those urges and wanting to
:50:19. > :50:23.look, the information needs to be put in when you are less of a sexual
:50:24. > :50:29.being. The information about drugs, family, sex, needs to go in at
:50:30. > :50:32.primary school. When you say, I have got those feelings, I have been
:50:33. > :50:35.armed with information and when you go to the pornography you understand
:50:36. > :50:38.what it is, what fantasy is, because you have been properly educated
:50:39. > :50:45.prior to the torrent of hormones ripping through your body and
:50:46. > :50:49.turning your life upside down. We will end that debate because we
:50:50. > :50:52.are running out of time and move on. If you found that interesting, BBC
:50:53. > :50:55.Three is showing a documentary after this programme with Jameela Jamil
:50:56. > :50:59.looking at these issues. Our final question is from the studio
:51:00. > :51:12.audience. It is Jamie. Where is Jamie? What do
:51:13. > :51:15.you want to ask? Are arbitrary quota system is the
:51:16. > :51:32.best way of ensuring that e-mails have access and opportunity in
:51:33. > :51:35.public life? . We definitely need those. If you take the example of
:51:36. > :51:39.Green Party policy, we have a policy of 40% of women on FTSE boards and
:51:40. > :51:42.in Norway was introduced by a right-wing male, who wanted to
:51:43. > :51:45.improve the quality of the boards in Norway. They put those women in and
:51:46. > :51:49.the women on those boards were actually better qualified than the
:51:50. > :51:53.men who remained. We were talking about a meritocracy. We don't have a
:51:54. > :51:56.meritocracy. We have selection on the basis of if you belong to the
:51:57. > :52:00.right golf club and went to the right school. The only way we can
:52:01. > :52:03.deal with the lack of women, 22% of women in Parliament, we need more
:52:04. > :52:07.women in public life and that requires quotas.
:52:08. > :52:11.Rhoose? There is a group -- woeful
:52:12. > :52:13.representation of women in lots of areas. We talked about boards,
:52:14. > :52:17.Parliament, we can think of so many examples as well. The problem with
:52:18. > :52:20.quotas is what it does culturally is it sends out further the message
:52:21. > :52:23.that women should not be respected, women can't get there on their own
:52:24. > :52:27.and it undermines their credulity. And actually, oddly, it makes the
:52:28. > :52:32.problem worse. Russell? Agreed, but it is worth
:52:33. > :52:35.paying that cultural tax for a few years while the system sorts itself
:52:36. > :52:39.out. Going back to the first question about benefits, we are in a
:52:40. > :52:41.country where it is much harder if you are woman to carry on working
:52:42. > :52:47.and get childcare straightaway because there is not proper
:52:48. > :52:50.childcare when kids are born. It is years before you can get back up and
:52:51. > :52:59.that holds women in -- that holds back women in the workplace.
:53:00. > :53:02.I agree with what you are saying, women aren't quite as good so they
:53:03. > :53:06.need a leg up but the system is broken so it needs a bit of
:53:07. > :53:09.lubrication, a bit of Greece, just for three or four years and then we
:53:10. > :53:15.can drop back into a normal system and the system is broken and it is
:53:16. > :53:19.the price we have to pay. This is part of the issue here, the
:53:20. > :53:25.obsession with pulling women out as some kind of group.
:53:26. > :53:29.Women can pull themselves out, they are strong. You talk about women and
:53:30. > :53:32.childcare. One thing that is interesting is the
:53:33. > :53:36.way we tend to assume that issues like childcare as if they are
:53:37. > :53:41.women's issues. Single parents where I grew up, men
:53:42. > :53:45.were not there. The way the media looks at this, the
:53:46. > :53:47.way that if you look at when the government announces that they are
:53:48. > :53:50.changing things which are going to affect the finance that a family
:53:51. > :53:54.gets around a child or childcare provision, anything like that, the
:53:55. > :53:58.next day I go through the papers and look at how different journalists
:53:59. > :54:02.have reported it. What bothers me is the number of people who talk about
:54:03. > :54:10.those changes and the impact on women. No, they will have impact on
:54:11. > :54:13.families. You need to get the figures. The
:54:14. > :54:21.Fawcett Society figures, one fifth of an average woman's average income
:54:22. > :54:24.from benefits. For men, one tenth. The more in terms of our language
:54:25. > :54:27.that we keep buying into and suggesting that these things like
:54:28. > :54:32.childcare should be women's issues, not family issues, the worse we make
:54:33. > :54:36.the problem. There are a lot of families without
:54:37. > :54:39.dads around where the kids are left with the month.
:54:40. > :54:44.They are still families, we can call them families.
:54:45. > :54:52.Adam? We are off-track. My thing is, the
:54:53. > :54:57.best person gets the job. The bottom line, if...
:54:58. > :54:59.What if you can't get to the interview?
:55:00. > :55:02.The best person should get the job and it empowers everybody, whatever
:55:03. > :55:09.their colour, their sexuality, their race. If we are not at that level
:55:10. > :55:12.than that is up to those companies to look at the internal.
:55:13. > :55:16.Exams for GPs, there is a discrimination against people from
:55:17. > :55:19.ethnic minorities. They fail the exam or other court has told them to
:55:20. > :55:22.sort that out. There is discrimination and you have to sort
:55:23. > :55:28.out discrimination and quotas is one way.
:55:29. > :55:33.Quotas breed more distrust, more disgruntlement between every body
:55:34. > :55:37.else. Look at it from a different angle.
:55:38. > :55:40.When you put quotas some of the reaction of people who are not in
:55:41. > :55:45.the quota is to get frustrated and angry and it builds resentment
:55:46. > :55:49.between parties. It is the worst way of doing it.
:55:50. > :55:53.It is successful, it has worked in Norway and other countries.
:55:54. > :55:57.You will have to agree to differ because our time is up. We are back
:55:58. > :56:00.in two weeks' time, on Thursday, in Nottingham, as part of the crime and
:56:01. > :56:05.punishment system we will come from the old courthouse. There will be
:56:06. > :56:13.Anna Soubry and one-time prison warden and comedian Ava Vidal.
:56:14. > :56:18.You don't have to wait until then to get free speech. The questions page
:56:19. > :56:22.is -- page on Facebook has been reset and is waiting for your
:56:23. > :56:25.questions. Click like on the ones you most want to see in the
:56:26. > :56:28.programme and we will count them up and see which comes top.
:56:29. > :56:38.From us in Winchester, for now, good night. Subtitles by Red Bee Media
:56:39. > :57:01.Ltd. E-mail: accessibility@bskyb.com.