:00:08. > :00:10.Hello and welcome to Free Speech, the show which makes your voice
:00:11. > :00:28.heard in the national conversation. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:00:29. > :00:39.I am a fairly honourable... And welcome to Free Speech. We live from
:00:40. > :00:43.the old in Nottingham. That is the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
:00:44. > :00:50.giving us their verdict, we want to hear what you think. Just tell Tina
:00:51. > :00:55.Daheley. Standing up! Good evening to all of you. We want to hear from
:00:56. > :00:59.you at home tonight. Submit your evidence online. Your answers and
:01:00. > :01:04.comments will come to me in the studio, where I will make sure they
:01:05. > :01:08.are heard in the debate. There is also our audience questions page and
:01:09. > :01:13.tonight we are taking it to the next level. I think you know how it
:01:14. > :01:16.works. For the past week you have been going to Free Speech on
:01:17. > :01:19.Facebook, clicking through to the audience questions page and looking
:01:20. > :01:24.through the questions that have been submitted by you at home. Here are
:01:25. > :01:28.the top questions before we went live. Tonight, we are doing things a
:01:29. > :01:33.bit differently in order to give you a bigger chance to vote for what you
:01:34. > :01:37.want to talk about. We are keeping the leaderboard open for another
:01:38. > :01:43.half an hour, until 8:30pm. What do you want to talk about? Here are the
:01:44. > :01:50.options. Should male circumcision be illegal? Like female circumcision,
:01:51. > :01:54.more commonly known as female genital mutilation. Should there be
:01:55. > :02:00.stricter punishments for rape? Do high tuition fees and internships
:02:01. > :02:03.mean younger generations are being treated as slaves, and should
:02:04. > :02:11.politics be taught as a core subject? Set the agenda. Live
:02:12. > :02:17.audience voting. Anything Strictly can do, we can do better. Here to
:02:18. > :02:22.debate your questions is our panel. Archie Bland, senior writer at the
:02:23. > :02:26.Independent. Ava Vidal, a stand-up comedian. Peter Hitchens, the Mail
:02:27. > :02:32.On Sunday columnist and author of crime, history. And Anna Soubry, a
:02:33. > :02:35.former criminal barrister who became the first female defence minister in
:02:36. > :02:43.2013. That is your panel. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:02:44. > :02:47.Since 2012, the government has worked to make the justice system
:02:48. > :02:53.tougher. Is it pandering to the tabloids, or necessary tough love?
:02:54. > :02:57.This week, Free Speech spoke to former prisoner Daniel Chapman about
:02:58. > :03:05.his experience. How would I describe prison? As an asylum. Prison works.
:03:06. > :03:12.It ensures that we are protected from murderers, muggers and rapists.
:03:13. > :03:17.I grew up in Stockwell in south-west London. My family were poor. By the
:03:18. > :03:23.time I was 16, I had acquired a gun and I was selling drugs for about
:03:24. > :03:27.two years. My whole lifestyle, she could not take it any more and that
:03:28. > :03:31.is when my mum phoned the police. We need to tackle this problem in a
:03:32. > :03:36.concerted way. Tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. I got
:03:37. > :03:43.a three-year custodial sentence. I was very numb until the door closed
:03:44. > :03:46.and I knew I could not move. I was in for about five months and got
:03:47. > :03:55.into a fight, they stabbed me with a pen. I was moved to Belmarsh when I
:03:56. > :04:00.was 18. Some of the worst things I saw in prison, they would mix hot
:04:01. > :04:04.water with sugar and throw it in your face. Meltdown razors and put
:04:05. > :04:10.it in a toothbrush and slash your face. I have banned sky TV, banned
:04:11. > :04:15.18 certificate DVDs. You wanted tougher justice system. We are
:04:16. > :04:19.delivering a tough -- tougher justice system. The facilities may
:04:20. > :04:24.not be tough, but psychologically it is the worst thing. I did not think
:04:25. > :04:27.I would make it university, I did not think I was smart enough. I am a
:04:28. > :04:34.university now. Studying graphic design. I think it needs to go back
:04:35. > :04:36.to what it was made for in the first place, rehabilitation. All these
:04:37. > :04:38.people who say it is not tough enough have not been. How can they
:04:39. > :04:50.comment? Soap, Daniel's question is does
:04:51. > :04:56.prison need to be tougher? Ava, you were a prison guard. Does prison
:04:57. > :04:59.need to be tougher? No, it is tough enough. At the end of the day
:05:00. > :05:03.everybody who speaks about prison being a holiday camp, everyone who
:05:04. > :05:08.talks like that has never been. I fire went to a holiday camp like
:05:09. > :05:13.that I would ask for a refund and compensation. It is not good in
:05:14. > :05:18.there. Peter, do you agree? Prison is tough in the wrong way. They are
:05:19. > :05:22.largely by the inmates rather than by authority and they have no
:05:23. > :05:26.purpose. The government does not really want to have prisons. It only
:05:27. > :05:30.keeps prisons because the public. Have them. It does not believe in
:05:31. > :05:35.punishment. As a result, they are warehouses in which people are very
:05:36. > :05:38.vulnerable to what other prisoners want to do to them. The main
:05:39. > :05:41.punishment inflicted on people in prison is inflicted not by the state
:05:42. > :05:47.or the law, but by the other inmates. That is wrong. If they were
:05:48. > :05:50.properly disciplined and run punitively for the original purpose,
:05:51. > :05:56.they would be much safer for the prisoners and much more likely to
:05:57. > :06:01.stop people from committing crime. They are very hard to get into. It
:06:02. > :06:07.is much harder to get into prison than university. You have to
:06:08. > :06:12.commit... LAUGHTER
:06:13. > :06:19.. People are already habitual criminals by the time they reach
:06:20. > :06:26.prison. Ava? To say the government do not want prisons is untrue.
:06:27. > :06:30.APPLAUSE In the UK, we are moving closer to
:06:31. > :06:34.the American system, the prison industrial complex, where big
:06:35. > :06:40.businesses are using inmates to do a lot of work. The prison I worked in
:06:41. > :06:44.which I cannot name, and I will not name the airline, but they used to
:06:45. > :06:48.get the inmates to put the little bikes together, the stuff you get on
:06:49. > :06:53.a flight, socks, earplugs, things like that, so to say people do not
:06:54. > :06:57.want prisons and the government don't want it, with the draconian
:06:58. > :07:07.measures that Chris Grayling is bringing in... ? I too have been to
:07:08. > :07:10.prison. When I was a criminal barrister are used to represent
:07:11. > :07:14.defendants far more than I prosecuted. We are just about
:07:15. > :07:19.getting to a stage where we are getting things in the right place.
:07:20. > :07:23.Every prison is different. Some prisons are really quite good.
:07:24. > :07:27.Others not so good. I take the view that if you go to prison, you go for
:07:28. > :07:32.a good reason. Prison is a punishment. I don't subscribe to the
:07:33. > :07:36.view it as a holiday camp. It is a deprivation of your liberty. It is a
:07:37. > :07:39.punishment and it is meant to be a punishment. But it should also be a
:07:40. > :07:44.place where people are rehabilitated. Some people go to
:07:45. > :07:48.prison because they need to be there to keep the rest of us safe. You
:07:49. > :07:53.were not in that category, you did half your sentence, 18 months? If I
:07:54. > :07:56.may say, you are somebody who has completely turned their life around
:07:57. > :08:00.and one of the best thing that ever happened to me was when I bump into
:08:01. > :08:05.an old client who I have not seen for a long time because they tended
:08:06. > :08:11.to be more heat than she, and prison had worked for them. If people do go
:08:12. > :08:16.to prison, it sounds perverse, but it is a positive experience for that
:08:17. > :08:19.human being, so when they come out they do not reoffend and turn their
:08:20. > :08:25.lives around like you have. Daniel. You have been to prison, did it work
:08:26. > :08:32.for you or did you turn your life around despite working -- despite
:08:33. > :08:37.going to prison? Prison did not work for me. From the second I went in,
:08:38. > :08:43.it made my life worse. It dehumanised me. Do you say you
:08:44. > :08:47.should not have gone to prison? Now you are who you are, what would you
:08:48. > :08:51.have done with you at that age? Would you have not gone to prison?
:08:52. > :08:56.What would you have done? There should have been intervention. There
:08:57. > :09:01.are personal cases you can relate to, you can't just talk about my
:09:02. > :09:06.situation. You need to intervene with the personal situation. Debut
:09:07. > :09:11.in general think people who deal in drugs and carry firearms ought to
:09:12. > :09:25.have something done to them by the criminal justice system? -- don't
:09:26. > :09:29.you think. not necessarily, no. To have people from different
:09:30. > :09:30.circumstances pointing and saying...
:09:31. > :09:42.APPLAUSE . How are our circumstances
:09:43. > :09:46.different to yours? How many people in terrible circumstances never
:09:47. > :09:54.carry drugs and deal -- never carry guns and deal drugs? You must not
:09:55. > :10:00.make excuses for crime. OK. We are going to the audience now. Do you
:10:01. > :10:05.think you are talking about rehabilitation, what do you think,
:10:06. > :10:09.what kind of rehabilitation are you providing for the prisoner inside,
:10:10. > :10:14.like education? Because most of the time the education is poor quality.
:10:15. > :10:21.They don't get a good qualification. There is only functional schemes. It
:10:22. > :10:25.depends when you go. Some people get good education in prisons and young
:10:26. > :10:30.offenders' institution is as well. The longer the sentence, the more
:10:31. > :10:36.opportunity people have to study. I would have clients of mine who could
:10:37. > :10:39.complete their education. Forgive me. I am sure nobody is saying that
:10:40. > :10:58.nobody should ever go to prison, or are you? You would send a rapist to
:10:59. > :11:02.prison, or a paedophile. Inaudible. They should have been sent to
:11:03. > :11:11.prison, guilty of fraud. It was said in the House of Lords. They have
:11:12. > :11:14.joined the Cabinet. Criminal justice in this country, it targets people
:11:15. > :11:18.from certain backgrounds at the end of the day. If you have the money to
:11:19. > :11:23.get a really good lawyer, if you have education, the amount of people
:11:24. > :11:28.in prison who would hand me a application forms who could not read
:11:29. > :11:31.or write. That is absolutely unacceptable. If you have a longer
:11:32. > :11:41.sentence, you have more time to be educated. So send more educated
:11:42. > :11:44.people to prison. People do. There is a more consistent legal system
:11:45. > :11:51.that punishes people across the board for what they do. UN
:11:52. > :11:55.muddying, excuses... It was 20.8 months, four white groups, 14.9
:11:56. > :12:04.months. APPLAUSE
:12:05. > :12:19.So send more white people to prison. Fine by me. OK. It is impossible to
:12:20. > :12:24.follow when everyone talks at the same time, isn't it? Let's stop
:12:25. > :12:27.doing that. For people at home, let's bring it back to conditions in
:12:28. > :12:32.prisons. That is what people are talking about online. Prison is like
:12:33. > :12:36.a holiday camp, prison is seen as hell in other countries. Yes,
:12:37. > :12:42.prisons need to be tougher, they are like holiday camps. They are in
:12:43. > :12:46.there for reason, not a holiday. How would you respond? I understand why
:12:47. > :12:51.-- where they are getting the fact it is like a holiday camp. They are
:12:52. > :12:54.dangerous places, you have to be paranoid the whole time. There is
:12:55. > :12:57.loads of stuff going on. It is ridiculous to say it is like a
:12:58. > :13:05.holiday camp. What holiday camp do you go to? Nobody has said they are
:13:06. > :13:12.like holiday camps. The viewing audience have said that. Whether
:13:13. > :13:15.prison is tough enough, I don't think it is. We are talking in the
:13:16. > :13:20.wrong terms. There is an endless drive towards making prison tougher
:13:21. > :13:23.in terms of for example banning parcels being received in prison,
:13:24. > :13:27.making conditions more unpleasant, peripheral stuff that doesn't
:13:28. > :13:30.matter. The way that prisons should become tougher is they should become
:13:31. > :13:37.more useful places that educate people. The fact is, I read a piece
:13:38. > :13:40.last year about Feltham prison, a lot of people said the trouble was
:13:41. > :13:44.that education is all very well but there is not enough of it. People
:13:45. > :13:49.are banged up for many hours and that drive them crazy. If you are in
:13:50. > :13:52.a cell all the time, you are more likely to be violent. The only way
:13:53. > :13:55.to fix that is resources. Whatever you say, it is the thing that
:13:56. > :13:59.government has to put more money into it. If you don't change the way
:14:00. > :14:01.it works, you can't fix anything else.
:14:02. > :14:08.APPLAUSE The gentleman here? On a lot of
:14:09. > :14:13.government reforms harm the way people are rehabilitated, taking
:14:14. > :14:19.away books. They are not allowed to take parcels in from the outside. We
:14:20. > :14:23.said because we have a problem with drugs and mobile phones going into
:14:24. > :14:26.prisons, so we changed the rules on parcels. People can still get books
:14:27. > :14:36.in prison. There are libraries in prison. We all know what is
:14:37. > :14:41.happening with austerity measures - loads of public libraries are being
:14:42. > :14:46.closed. Therefore prison libraries are being closed. No-one is thinking
:14:47. > :14:49.about prison officers. No-one is thinking these are the people who
:14:50. > :14:54.have to look after these people. Have a guy in a cell who is boiling
:14:55. > :14:58.rage. You open that door and you could get hot water with sugar in
:14:59. > :15:05.your face because they are going mad. Prison officers do not want
:15:06. > :15:10.prisoners not to have television and stuff. If you know the amount of
:15:11. > :15:17.prison officers who are off with stress, how many take drugs. How
:15:18. > :15:22.many take drugs into prison? A lot are through prison officers. At the
:15:23. > :15:28.prison I worked at, they were coming in through pigeons. It is a weird
:15:29. > :15:32.story. We were in the exercise yard. There were dead prison officer gones
:15:33. > :15:40.there. We were like, this is OK, it is biblical. A prison officer kicked
:15:41. > :15:47.one over and people scooped the outside of p pigeon out.
:15:48. > :15:53.To ban books is ridiculous. It tells you everything you need to know,
:15:54. > :16:00.that drugs which are available are available in prison readily all the
:16:01. > :16:06.time. I know you like to applaud fashionable of statements - but the
:16:07. > :16:11.prisons are not under the authority conoh -- control of the authorities.
:16:12. > :16:15.Read the report into the prison, which at night was said by the
:16:16. > :16:20.prison officer to be under the control of gangs. You will see what
:16:21. > :16:24.goes on. We do not have and we do not, as the Government does not
:16:25. > :16:30.seek, proper control of prisons. It is easier for them to allow drugs
:16:31. > :16:39.in. It keeps people constitute pified. There's -- stupified. If you
:16:40. > :16:44.go to Nottingham prison, everybody knows if you go to Nottingham,
:16:45. > :16:48.there'll be a sniffer dog there. You get pat-down searches and so on and
:16:49. > :16:51.so forth. For visitors, it was almost impossible to get anything
:16:52. > :17:00.through. It was coming in in other ways. Yes, there were inventive
:17:01. > :17:04.ways. I The idea that Government wants to keep -- the idea that
:17:05. > :17:09.Government wants to keep people on drugs in prison is nonsense. Why
:17:10. > :17:14.don't they stop it happening then? They've had a long time to stop
:17:15. > :17:20.it... There are local prisons, there are category C prison, there are
:17:21. > :17:24.dispersal prisons - there is a huge difference.
:17:25. > :17:31.The lady here. You have been patience. The situation in different
:17:32. > :17:35.prisons is different F there is such a variety in the levels of education
:17:36. > :17:40.people get in prisons - what is the Government doing about it? I don't
:17:41. > :17:44.think it is right that the prison which the chief inspector of prisons
:17:45. > :17:49.said is the worst he's seen ever in his time as chief inspectors, in
:17:50. > :17:53.Wolverhampton is a young offenders' institution. Why are your most
:17:54. > :17:57.vulnerable people not getting the provision they need? Understandably,
:17:58. > :18:03.if you are sent to prison, you would want to go to a prison which is near
:18:04. > :18:09.to where your family is. The trouble is then you often get gangs going
:18:10. > :18:14.into a particular problem. You do get some scary people - I am sure
:18:15. > :18:18.you would agree and extremely bad people in prisons. Having to deal
:18:19. > :18:24.with it is very difficult. One of the things I agree about, it was
:18:25. > :18:29.about seen when people were banged up for 23 hours without any break -
:18:30. > :18:33.that is wrong. We have introduced work - forgive me - I think it is
:18:34. > :18:42.good, that people when in prison get used to working.
:18:43. > :18:47.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE I must say it is very different to
:18:48. > :18:53.what you heard Chris Grayling say. There was a story about him over a
:18:54. > :18:56.project which was supposed to investigate the incidents of rape in
:18:57. > :19:02.prison, actually suggested he would like to ban the provision of condoms
:19:03. > :19:08.in prisons. If that is true, it is being reported on Politics Today -
:19:09. > :19:14.it is a pretty reliable report - this is the prisons minister who has
:19:15. > :19:17.no connection to the reality of life in prison and would rather say
:19:18. > :19:22.something to get an easy headline rather than do something which would
:19:23. > :19:27.fundamental change the outcomes of people coming out of prison. It is
:19:28. > :19:32.about making people safer. That is a common theme across the
:19:33. > :19:37.board. We need to be thinking about the individual. Circumstances
:19:38. > :19:42.dictates emotions. I myself went to prison. Going to prison, in a sense
:19:43. > :19:48.ironically changed my life. I allowed it to. The only reason I was
:19:49. > :19:52.able to do that was I was inspired by some particular individuals.
:19:53. > :19:57.There is not enough investment in those individuals who want to help
:19:58. > :20:01.offenders change. APPLAUSE
:20:02. > :20:07.When people talk about prison being a holiday camp - I am talking from
:20:08. > :20:12.the perspective of somebody who went to prison. I could not care less
:20:13. > :20:25.about having a TV - I was concerned about losing my family family... .
:20:26. > :20:29.When he says, we'll ban SkyTV... You have stuff taken from you. Now what
:20:30. > :20:32.we are saying is if you want stuff you have to earn it with good
:20:33. > :20:39.behaviour. I have no problem with it. What I do - what is wrong - you
:20:40. > :20:42.are right, Sir. It is the deprivation of your liberty and the
:20:43. > :20:48.other guy talks about people going into prison and doing great work.
:20:49. > :20:52.Who inspired you? Was it another inmate? We are talking about books
:20:53. > :20:58.which are being banned from prison. I read a book about an individual -
:20:59. > :21:02.a gang leader in America, who was sentenced to life and become a Nobel
:21:03. > :21:10.Peace Prize winner. His book inspired me. It opened my eyes T way
:21:11. > :21:18.he transsended from being a gang --. The way he turned into this was
:21:19. > :21:22.through literature. We are not taking books away. When people make
:21:23. > :21:27.mistakes they have the ability to turn around. I made mistakes. If I
:21:28. > :21:32.told you my story and what I am doing - if you met me five years ago
:21:33. > :21:38.I would not have believed I would have been the person I am today. I
:21:39. > :21:43.am living proof, he is living proof that you can change. Let me ask you
:21:44. > :21:48.this - would you agree with what Peter said about prison being run by
:21:49. > :21:53.inmates? It is nonsense. A governor runs the prison. That is end of.
:21:54. > :21:57.Each prison is different, based on the governor's intention. That is
:21:58. > :22:01.how it is run. Yes, it is tough. It is tough for both entities. You have
:22:02. > :22:06.prison officers who exist in the system. They are there as long as
:22:07. > :22:11.the prisoners themselves. We are human beings at the end of the day.
:22:12. > :22:17.ALL SPEAK AT ONCE If anybody other than me said it...
:22:18. > :22:22.Who are prisoners afraid of in prison? The officers? No. They are
:22:23. > :22:27.afraid of... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:22:28. > :22:32.That is not necessarily true. Don't say it is not true. When you have
:22:33. > :22:38.worked in one? I have not worked in one. Let him answer Peter's
:22:39. > :22:44.question. Prison officers are scared of offenders. I witnessed for
:22:45. > :22:49.myself, yeah - I witnessed a prisoner thrash his cell and flood
:22:50. > :22:54.his cell. He got taken away. Now, his cellmate came back after a visit
:22:55. > :22:58.and he was being forced to enter a cell which had been flooded, burnt
:22:59. > :23:04.out and thrashed. He said, how can you put me in this and where are my
:23:05. > :23:10.belongs. They said you have to go in the cell. Refused. I witnessed him
:23:11. > :23:18.get his face punched in by aofficer. Don't sit there and tell me they are
:23:19. > :23:24.intimidated... I agree with you. The lady here. Why do people come out of
:23:25. > :23:30.prison with like psychological health problems. If they were not
:23:31. > :23:36.tough they would come out all right. Prison rates are incredible high.
:23:37. > :23:42.This idea of prisons being finishing schools - that is what happens you
:23:43. > :23:47.might go in doing something minor and then you come out and spend your
:23:48. > :23:52.time with other criminals. It does not necessarily help matters. It is
:23:53. > :23:58.not true. 78% of young offenders offend. Daniel is the exception, not
:23:59. > :24:04.the rule. In the category Bmale prison - 52% turnover where people
:24:05. > :24:08.came back. What I am saying is I find it a little bit dodgy that
:24:09. > :24:12.people who own big businesses, who have access to the Government and
:24:13. > :24:17.lobby, then have work contracts in prison it is in their interest to
:24:18. > :24:20.have people sent to prison. APPLAUSE
:24:21. > :24:25.OK, we will move on from this debate now. The next question from our
:24:26. > :24:30.studio audience. What do you want to ask? I would like to ask, following
:24:31. > :24:36.several murderous acts in several years over which can be described as
:24:37. > :24:43.evil, for instance the murder of Lee Rigby, should the death penalty be
:24:44. > :24:48.reinstated? What do you think? I am torn on the subject, really. I
:24:49. > :24:53.think. It is quite evocative language. Yeah, but I think it
:24:54. > :24:58.should definitely be stricter punishments for murders which are
:24:59. > :25:04.random, because it makes people feel not safe. Whereas, yeah, it's a very
:25:05. > :25:09.definite punishment - the death penalty. The most definite. By
:25:10. > :25:14.treating somebody who is doing something bad doing something bad
:25:15. > :25:17.back it is just evilness. It will not get better you kill somebody who
:25:18. > :25:22.kills somebody. It will never get better that way. I don't agree with
:25:23. > :25:27.the death penalty. If you impose it on people, then when it comes to
:25:28. > :25:31.trials, people will not plead guilty. It will drag victims of
:25:32. > :25:37.crime through the system it is not fair on the victims. Anyone here who
:25:38. > :25:44.does agree with the death penalty? Yes, the lady here. I agree that the
:25:45. > :25:51.death penalty should be warranted in cases where the act has been thought
:25:52. > :25:54.about for a long time beforehand, so it is premeditated. They have
:25:55. > :25:59.thought about the way they would go about it and they've had a very long
:26:00. > :26:05.#250i78 to decide whether it is -- time to decide whether it is right
:26:06. > :26:11.or wrong. Why should the taxpayer have to pay to put, so, say the
:26:12. > :26:15.murderers of Lee Rigby, there is no question of doubt they murdered him.
:26:16. > :26:19.Why should we then have them in jail and have to pay for them to remain
:26:20. > :26:24.in jail for that period of time? I don't believe that you should
:26:25. > :26:27.murder, you know, you should have the death penalty - this question of
:26:28. > :26:32.doubt. There's no question of doubt that they killed him. Why should we
:26:33. > :26:37.have to pay for them? And there's no doubt. How would you respond? The
:26:38. > :26:43.death penalty is pretty expensive, so in the state... It is because the
:26:44. > :26:46.reason for that - the reason for that is that capital trials are
:26:47. > :26:51.very, very expensive. They drag on longer. People end up on Death Row
:26:52. > :26:56.for a long time. You have appeal stages. It is more expensive. Even
:26:57. > :27:00.if it was not the case - even if it was the cheapest way, I don't think
:27:01. > :27:03.it is a question of that. It is a question of whether we want to give
:27:04. > :27:07.the state the right and the ability to execute citizens. I don't believe
:27:08. > :27:12.that we should. There's that matter of principal. There is the fact that
:27:13. > :27:15.it doesn't really work. There is basically no evidence from anywhere
:27:16. > :27:18.in the world that you can actually show that the death penalty makes it
:27:19. > :27:22.less likely that people will kill each other. If you don't know it is
:27:23. > :27:27.working and you know you might execute people who didn't do it. In
:27:28. > :27:30.the US you have three or four people released from Death Row. If you know
:27:31. > :27:35.all that, how you can believe that it is a sensible option...
:27:36. > :27:40.APPLAUSE Peter?
:27:41. > :27:54.Yes, I think it should be brought back. Some people applauding. Do any
:27:55. > :27:57.of you want to listen to opinions? Do you just have the views of people
:27:58. > :28:01.that you think you ought to have? Have you ever thought about it? I
:28:02. > :28:07.used to be against it, now I am for it. I have thought about it. R First
:28:08. > :28:13.of all, there is substantial evidence that it deters one very
:28:14. > :28:17.important thing, it deters - it's in the criminal statistics... Well, if
:28:18. > :28:21.you ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:28:22. > :28:25.If you wait for me to finish my sentence - there is good evidence -
:28:26. > :28:28.it deters the use of weapons by criminals.
:28:29. > :28:31.And the death penalty in this country was suspended for two
:28:32. > :28:38.periods while Parliament thought of getting rid of it in 1948 and 1957.
:28:39. > :28:42.During both those suspensions the incidents of armed crime went up. At
:28:43. > :28:48.the end of the suspensions it went down. There is in the United States
:28:49. > :28:54.that prevents stranger murder. That is where somebody kills the witness
:28:55. > :28:59.to his crime. Don't interrupt me! The person kills the person he has
:29:00. > :29:02.raped or kills the person he has robbed. That kind of crime has
:29:03. > :29:07.increased substantially in the United States since the death
:29:08. > :29:11.penalty was abolished. You will hear how it operates in the United States
:29:12. > :29:15.- it doesn't really. It exists as a political fixtion. It is not
:29:16. > :29:20.actually carried out. We have the death penalty in this country - it
:29:21. > :29:25.is carried out by the police. They shoot people without any kind of
:29:26. > :29:30.appeal. The more you don't have a death penalty with due process, the
:29:31. > :29:34.more you have of that. 60 prisoners a year, on average n the prisons of
:29:35. > :29:39.England and Wales kill themselves. That is also, as far as I am
:29:40. > :29:43.concerned a death penalty. I disapprove of long prison sentences.
:29:44. > :29:49.I think they destroy people's souls. I would rather have a just, swift
:29:50. > :29:52.execution of a when nows murder than keeping someone in prison that their
:29:53. > :29:54.soul was destroyed and they took their own lives.
:29:55. > :30:13.Would anyone agree with Peter? That is such a stupid comment. How
:30:14. > :30:23.can you applaud that? It is very true. What about the person who has
:30:24. > :30:31.been murdered? What about the souls of the families who have lost
:30:32. > :30:38.someone? What about them? Where does that come into the argument? I
:30:39. > :30:43.support a charity, it is soul destroying for the person who has
:30:44. > :30:47.taken a family member away by stabbing them 80 times out of cold
:30:48. > :30:53.blood and you were worried about their well-being in prison. You
:30:54. > :30:58.don't understand what I am saying. I believe in hanging heinous
:30:59. > :31:02.murderers. I think they should be hanged by the neck until dead. I
:31:03. > :31:08.think you may have misunderstood entirely what I said. It is really
:31:09. > :31:14.difficult, it is difficult when you hear about Lee Rigby. I sat with a
:31:15. > :31:19.mother, whose son, some of you may remember this story, it was a
:31:20. > :31:23.terrible murder that occurred in the north of this city and her son was
:31:24. > :31:28.in the passenger seat and somebody came along and thought that her son
:31:29. > :31:34.was somebody else and shot him in the back of the head and he was
:31:35. > :31:38.dead, obviously. She had to go through the court process and she
:31:39. > :31:42.then had, when he was convicted of murder and received a long sentence,
:31:43. > :31:46.she had him then turned to her and said, you should have seen what your
:31:47. > :31:50.son's had looked like when I shot him, and I had to sit with this
:31:51. > :31:56.woman and explain to her white I do not support the death penalty. When
:31:57. > :32:01.you hear her raw emotion, she says, I will continue to work, I will pay
:32:02. > :32:06.my taxes, he will come out of prison in his early 40s will stop my son
:32:07. > :32:11.meant -- never made his 21st birthday. That is very moving. Even
:32:12. > :32:15.with that awful emotion I just believe, even though that is the
:32:16. > :32:21.most wicked thing, like the ream -- like the Lee Rigby murder, I still
:32:22. > :32:24.think of the society you are judged by the way you treat even the people
:32:25. > :32:26.who do the most wicked things and that is why I would never believe in
:32:27. > :32:30.the death penalty. APPLAUSE
:32:31. > :32:35.When the population is polled about who is in favour of the death
:32:36. > :32:40.penalty, 58% of young people are in favour of the death penalty and 59%
:32:41. > :32:44.of people who are older. People are reactionary, people don't think it's
:32:45. > :32:49.through properly. I am sad to say Peter did make a good point. He
:32:50. > :32:55.mentioned the fact that police officers have been shooting people
:32:56. > :32:58.without due process. There is Rodney and Mark Duggan, you have to think
:32:59. > :33:02.about cases like that. On the other hand, there should not base date
:33:03. > :33:08.sanctioned murder because too often it goes wrong. You only have to read
:33:09. > :33:13.a book called the exonerated and people who are the victims, who end
:33:14. > :33:18.up getting the best -- the death penalty are poor people and
:33:19. > :33:22.minorities. It is not right. What is happening online? A lot of people
:33:23. > :33:26.are disagreeing with the death penalty. Going against the
:33:27. > :33:31.statistics in that poll. Some would agree, the death penalty can not be
:33:32. > :33:35.brought back soon enough. We need to crack down on criminals, they
:33:36. > :33:39.deserve punishment. This has come in from Michelle. The death penalty
:33:40. > :33:43.should never be reinstated. How can anybody have the power to take
:33:44. > :33:47.somebody's life? It is not your life. You cannot bring back an
:33:48. > :33:52.innocent life after they have been killed. What if a convicted murderer
:33:53. > :33:57.was proved innocent? There are several points. The first is this.
:33:58. > :34:00.Every three years, two people in this country are murdered by a
:34:01. > :34:04.convicted murderer who has been released. They are innocent people
:34:05. > :34:09.who died as a result of the failure of the criminal justice system. That
:34:10. > :34:14.is not seen as an argument for never releasing the victim of a murderer.
:34:15. > :34:18.An awful lot of people so that -- supported the military intervention
:34:19. > :34:21.in Serbia, in which bombs were dropped on Belgrade and innocent
:34:22. > :34:26.people died. All of us support the transport policy, which requires
:34:27. > :34:32.because of mass car ownership, the deaths of 3000 people every year. We
:34:33. > :34:38.licensed the deaths of 180,000 innocent babies through abortion. If
:34:39. > :34:41.you are really -- if you really think that no policy can be pursued
:34:42. > :34:46.if anybody innocent is going to die as a result of it, I would take that
:34:47. > :34:49.from a complete pacifist who believed it is all right to have the
:34:50. > :34:54.country invaded by a foreign power and not resist. If you believe that,
:34:55. > :34:58.you can lay aside the weapon of capital punishment. But otherwise
:34:59. > :35:02.you don't have a coherent argument. Politicians advanced this argument
:35:03. > :35:04.because they are afraid of responsibility. They don't like the
:35:05. > :35:12.responsibility of having to protect the public from savage people. That
:35:13. > :35:16.is why Parliament, there has never been at any point a chance for the
:35:17. > :35:19.public to vote on this. Nobody ever stood at a general election and said
:35:20. > :35:25.we will abolish the death penalty. It was done by a private member's
:35:26. > :35:28.bill. Politicians decided amongst themselves they would abolish it
:35:29. > :35:33.because they did not like the responsibility. People with mental
:35:34. > :35:38.health problems, all too often we are looking people who have got
:35:39. > :35:43.mental health problems. We need to think about that, because sometimes
:35:44. > :35:47.you see people in prison, we keep mentioning Lee Rigby's murderers,
:35:48. > :35:50.psychologically they could not be sound. Peter thinks we are
:35:51. > :35:53.disagreeing with him to be fashionable, but if you are
:35:54. > :36:02.constantly unfashionable, move with the times. The important thing to
:36:03. > :36:05.say about Lee Rigby, is the death penalty enough to make them suffer
:36:06. > :36:10.enough for what they did? Probably not. Do we want to have them
:36:11. > :36:14.tortured before they die? Do we want to have a series of unpleasant
:36:15. > :36:18.processes? If you make your criminal justice system simply about exactly
:36:19. > :36:22.what people deserve, you can never do enough. That is not the way to
:36:23. > :36:29.think about it. Justice is not about revenge. OK. It is time to see what
:36:30. > :36:34.you guys at home have chosen on the leaderboard. We have closed the
:36:35. > :36:39.voting. Here is the leaderboard. The top question is from Emily. She asks
:36:40. > :36:43.should male circumcision be made illegal, like female circumcision?
:36:44. > :36:50.Should male circumcision be made illegal? Peter? No. One of the
:36:51. > :36:53.reasons for the confusion about this is the word circumcision has been
:36:54. > :36:55.used to describe the horrendous operation known as female genital
:36:56. > :37:05.mutilation, which is not circumcision. It is absolutely...
:37:06. > :37:08.Absolutely right. It should never be used. Week asked whether the
:37:09. > :37:15.questioner should keep that language. They said yes. You would
:37:16. > :37:18.not use racist language. It is not female circumcision. You should
:37:19. > :37:26.never use it. It is the most appalling assault on women, to take
:37:27. > :37:30.away... We said FGM, when we set it out at the beginning, we need to
:37:31. > :37:38.phrase questions the way people ask them. That is hate speech, illegal.
:37:39. > :37:44.Your viewer used the term, it confuses people. Male circumcision
:37:45. > :37:48.is a different thing. I personally would not want to circumcise any
:37:49. > :37:52.child of mine. In my own childhood, it was a very medically fashionable
:37:53. > :37:56.thing to do. It was done to a lot of people in my generation. Everybody
:37:57. > :38:02.here knows also that it is a religious requirement for Jews and
:38:03. > :38:06.Muslims, pretty much, arising from a passage in Genesis which both faiths
:38:07. > :38:10.refer to. For them it is a very important sign of the faith. If you
:38:11. > :38:14.start talking about making it illegal, you are possibly using it
:38:15. > :38:18.as an excuse to say unpleasant things about a religious minority,
:38:19. > :38:23.which one should be careful of. My answer is, no, it would provide huge
:38:24. > :38:27.difficulties, conscientious difficulties for Jews and Muslims.
:38:28. > :38:33.It would be almost certainly unenforceable and would take away
:38:34. > :38:37.the possibility of doing something about female genital mutilation.
:38:38. > :38:42.Anna? I am cross because we know that people in the past have used
:38:43. > :38:47.language which is wrong and as we mature we grow up as a society, we
:38:48. > :38:50.get rid of it. To call it female circumcision by people who supported
:38:51. > :38:54.it, to try and give it some sort of credit, when in fact it is the most
:38:55. > :38:58.appalling assault, both psychologically and physically. It
:38:59. > :39:02.is done in order to take away that young child's's future enjoyment of
:39:03. > :39:07.sexual intercourse. That is why it is done. It has terrible scarring,
:39:08. > :39:10.literally physical scarring and mentally scarring. I am really
:39:11. > :39:15.pleased when I was a minister in health, we really tried to get on
:39:16. > :39:19.top of this and we are trying to bring prosecutions. In stark
:39:20. > :39:23.contrast to male circumcision, which is often a medical thing done for
:39:24. > :39:28.good medical reasons, it is practised by some religions, it is
:39:29. > :39:33.totally different to female genital mutilation. Let's get that clear.
:39:34. > :39:38.APPLAUSE A gentleman disagrees? We have to
:39:39. > :39:43.make a distinction. Male circumcision is not objectively
:39:44. > :39:47.wrong. Consenting adults, infants who require it, it is permissible,
:39:48. > :39:52.but to systematically laments circumcision among infants for
:39:53. > :40:00.purely religious regions -- reasons this barbaric. It is... In a secular
:40:01. > :40:08.country we should not allow religion... This is off the top of
:40:09. > :40:13.his head. Domain the genitalia... Week get the idea. I am not an
:40:14. > :40:20.expert in male circumcision but I don't think it is done, what happens
:40:21. > :40:24.with female genital mutilation, that is the most appalling thing, to take
:40:25. > :40:30.away a woman's enjoyment of sexual intercourse. They are totally
:40:31. > :40:33.separate. I don't think, I am not Jewish or a Muslim, there must be
:40:34. > :40:37.people in this audience who can tell us why it is done, but it is not
:40:38. > :40:43.done to prohibit somebody in their sexuality. In fact it does. I agree
:40:44. > :40:47.with everything that Peter and Anna said and it is a problem to put them
:40:48. > :40:52.in the same space because you appear to be treating them with equivalent
:40:53. > :40:56.seriousness. FGM is a huge, barbaric problem. Male circumcision is a
:40:57. > :40:58.different thing. Having said that, you should not make male
:40:59. > :41:02.circumcision illegal. There should be more space within Islam and the
:41:03. > :41:09.Jewish community for gesturing whether or not these have to be an
:41:10. > :41:14.essential part of their religion. Would I want my child to be
:41:15. > :41:19.circumcised? Absolutely not. I would not do it to an adult, therefore I
:41:20. > :41:24.would not do it to a child. I have done work with daughters of Eve, who
:41:25. > :41:29.campaign against FGM, they are brilliant ladies, and I spoke to
:41:30. > :41:32.them about it because having a child and speaking about male circumcision
:41:33. > :41:35.and what they have said is even though it is not the same they
:41:36. > :41:41.personally don't think it should happen to males or females. A lot of
:41:42. > :41:45.people are desensitised to the issue because it is in our culture. The
:41:46. > :41:51.fact is, what sane person looks at a newborn baby and thinks, what a
:41:52. > :41:57.bundle of joy, pass me a knife, let me slice of the fork skin. You are
:41:58. > :42:04.making faces, why do you find... -- the foreskin. For some young babies
:42:05. > :42:09.it is a medical procedure. Men in this room have been circumcised, you
:42:10. > :42:12.are getting worried, sir, but seriously, some people circumcised
:42:13. > :42:18.because you need to be circumcised because you have problem with your
:42:19. > :42:22.foreskin. How would you respond to these people online, who are sharing
:42:23. > :42:29.their stories. I am circumcised and hated. I have my whole choice to an
:42:30. > :42:33.intact body removed at birth, say no to circumcision. I am angry because
:42:34. > :42:38.part of my body was removed without consent. My parents did nothing to
:42:39. > :42:41.protect me. This from Ray, I was circumcised as a child and it caused
:42:42. > :42:46.the numerous problems. It should not have been legal to do that to me
:42:47. > :42:52.without my permission. How do you respond? There is no expert on
:42:53. > :42:57.circumcision. I consider myself an expert. I was circumcised. I don't
:42:58. > :43:03.suffer from any psychological harm, because a lot of people circumcised
:43:04. > :43:07.when they are babies and it is a voluntary act. If you take away the
:43:08. > :43:09.responsibility from the parents, you should also take away the
:43:10. > :43:15.responsibility to send them to school, to do this and that. Saved
:43:16. > :43:21.my life, maybe, it saved my life, because I could have got AIDS or
:43:22. > :43:26.HIV, maybe other things that people could get, so why do people think
:43:27. > :43:31.this is... It isn't medically inconclusive whether there are
:43:32. > :43:38.benefits. You make your point very powerfully. And very movingly. You
:43:39. > :43:42.plainly believe it very strongly. I think what you have said deserves
:43:43. > :43:46.very much to be heard and considered by everybody and makes me think when
:43:47. > :43:50.I hear it and would make anyone think when they hear it. You need to
:43:51. > :43:53.listen to those particularly in the Jewish and Muslim faiths who might
:43:54. > :43:58.argue the opposite to you, with equal passion, and with equal
:43:59. > :44:03.conviction, that they are right. Under those circumstances, is it
:44:04. > :44:07.possible in a free society to make a law of the kind which you require?
:44:08. > :44:11.There is too much disagreement. Also too much danger of what might turn
:44:12. > :44:15.out to be covert religious persecution for that to happen. You
:44:16. > :44:18.may say if we argue about this long enough that among Jews and Muslims
:44:19. > :44:22.living in our society there will come about a movement against it and
:44:23. > :44:26.that might not be a terribly bad thing. But I do not think that
:44:27. > :44:32.banning it by law would achieve that or bring it forward. You should
:44:33. > :44:38.consider there is more to this than what you have said. OK. A lot to
:44:39. > :44:49.think about. We will go to the final question. Should there be stricter
:44:50. > :44:55.punishments for rape? Let's start with you. It share shares certain
:44:56. > :45:00.car ris ticks that it is kind of the wrong question. Only 3% of rapists,
:45:01. > :45:05.or rape cases end newspaper a successful prosecution. How can we
:45:06. > :45:11.bring that number up? I think rape case, certainly there is a very - it
:45:12. > :45:15.is very clear, rape is rape. There is no distinction between different
:45:16. > :45:20.types of rape as far as the action goes. With any crime it is possible
:45:21. > :45:24.to distinguish, with mitigating factors and I think we have a legal
:45:25. > :45:29.system that deals with that successfully. The part it does not
:45:30. > :45:33.deal with, is actually getting rapists prosecuted successfully and
:45:34. > :45:37.having them sent to prison. APPLAUSE
:45:38. > :45:43.The gentleman up here. Your main point there was only 3% of rape
:45:44. > :45:45.accusations end up with somebody being successfully prosecutes and
:45:46. > :45:50.that should go up. Maybe the other side is that perhaps there's some
:45:51. > :45:54.evidence of good work there that there are a lot of false
:45:55. > :46:00.allegations. There is no evidence there is a higher number of false
:46:01. > :46:05.accusations... I am not saying a higher number. To blanketly go - we
:46:06. > :46:10.need to increase this, it should be higher is leading to people being
:46:11. > :46:15.accused more. If you think we should reduce the success of all
:46:16. > :46:19.prosecution events to 3%... If you are saying that rape is this special
:46:20. > :46:26.case where... I am not making a case for a special case. You kind of are.
:46:27. > :46:31.There is another argument, there is a low prosecution rate... As far as
:46:32. > :46:36.punishment goes there - if someone is accused of rape, at the moment -
:46:37. > :46:39.their name can be made public. The accuser's name can't. That person's
:46:40. > :46:44.reputation - they could lose their job. They could lose a family, and
:46:45. > :46:50.they may not have done anything. It is very odd that you don't...
:46:51. > :46:55.Nobody makes these arguments about any other crime apart from rape. I
:46:56. > :46:59.think that is odd. Rape is often the most difficult case to prosecute.
:47:00. > :47:03.When the issue is consent, so you have two people - it tends to be a
:47:04. > :47:08.man and woman, who are known to each other - it is not denied that sexual
:47:09. > :47:12.intercourse took place, but the issue is consent. They are very
:47:13. > :47:17.difficult to prosecute. The maximum sentence for life is -- for rape is
:47:18. > :47:21.life. In my experience, judges get it right. If you are convicted of
:47:22. > :47:26.rape after trial, you could expect to go away for at least five years.
:47:27. > :47:31.At least five years. And then, as many people in here will know from
:47:32. > :47:35.their experiences, there will be certain circumstances where it is
:47:36. > :47:42.higher and higher. My experience, judges get rape and they know how to
:47:43. > :47:46.sentence and they dish out, quite rightly, tough sentences. It is one
:47:47. > :47:51.of the most serious, appalling crimes which can be committed. I do
:47:52. > :47:55.realise obviously that rape is very hard to convict, but, you know,
:47:56. > :48:01.surely 3%, that is not really high... I thought it was higher than
:48:02. > :48:05.that. That is not very high. Surely there should be stricter laws,
:48:06. > :48:10.considering it is one of the worst crime to commit, because you don't
:48:11. > :48:14.give consent to give sexual intercourse. Repeat offender, if
:48:15. > :48:19.they are not caught in time, it will be worse. Surely the Government
:48:20. > :48:23.should be able to clamp down on the laws to make it harder for people
:48:24. > :48:28.not to get away with it and put them behind bars. I think nobody is
:48:29. > :48:32.arguing about the horrible nature of rape or the need to punish convicted
:48:33. > :48:37.rapists. What seems to be behind this is a willingness to set aside
:48:38. > :48:42.the greatest protection that our liberty has - which is the
:48:43. > :48:47.presumption of innocence. No-one can put you in prison in this country
:48:48. > :48:49.until they have proved, to the satisfaction of a jury, that you
:48:50. > :48:53.have done what you are accused of. It is very difficult to do that in
:48:54. > :48:58.the case of rape, because it is often the case of one person's word
:48:59. > :49:08.against another. Some of you will have sat on juries. All of you
:49:09. > :49:13.probably will. When we aagreed to send somebody to
:49:14. > :49:17.prison and ruin his life forever, then you have to think very hard
:49:18. > :49:25.about whether and what you believe. How you can get rid... I would pay
:49:26. > :49:29.almost any price to preserve jury trial on the presumption of
:49:30. > :49:34.innocence, because they are the absolute, solid bedrock of the
:49:35. > :49:41.liberty. More valuable than democracy, more valuable than
:49:42. > :49:46.anything else in keeping the state too powerful. It may be you one day
:49:47. > :49:51.who is more easily convicted as a result. Then you'll know what it
:49:52. > :49:55.means. You are blaming the victim there. You are the person that is
:49:56. > :49:59.installing rape culture into this country. The reason there is such a
:50:00. > :50:02.small amount of people that are convicted is because people don't
:50:03. > :50:06.report it because of rape culture. There needs to be a change in the
:50:07. > :50:11.attitude of people. Poor people who are convicted of rape - how their
:50:12. > :50:14.lives are ruined. Forget about that - the victim has to live with that
:50:15. > :50:19.for the rest of their life. Yet, you are saying the person who has done
:50:20. > :50:23.it - oh, they will go for prison for five years - that is so hard for
:50:24. > :50:27.them to do. There is a footballer who has been convicted of raping a
:50:28. > :50:35.19-year-old girl. Do yacht name him, please. -- do not name him, please.
:50:36. > :50:40.He heed a so many people go, he his life has been ruined because he's
:50:41. > :50:50.raped this girl. We will move away from specifics. It does not proved
:50:51. > :50:52.right... This is one of the most sexist countries because of the
:50:53. > :51:03.crucial sexism. It is disgraceful. We need to look at preventative
:51:04. > :51:08.causes of rape and look at the breakdown of the family and fathers
:51:09. > :51:14.not being around and the way that people treat women. Men in society
:51:15. > :51:18.and that needs to go back to the family unit being re-established and
:51:19. > :51:24.being important and being supported by the Government. The lady with the
:51:25. > :51:27.blue hair. Before I got interrupted, basically people are terrified of
:51:28. > :51:32.coming forward when they have been raped. We need to get rid of that
:51:33. > :51:37.for people to be convicted properly. Because, well, who on earth would
:51:38. > :51:41.want to go through being asked how much you have drunk, what you were
:51:42. > :51:46.wearing, what you were doing when it has nothing to do with it whatever.
:51:47. > :51:51.APPLAUSE I absolutely promise you, you do not
:51:52. > :51:55.get asked those questions now. I have someone I know who has been
:51:56. > :52:00.asked that. It used to be the case that there were people who would be
:52:01. > :52:03.asked, what were you wearing? Somebody drink plays a part, if you
:52:04. > :52:07.are saying you cannot remember this, that or the other. The idea that you
:52:08. > :52:12.would be asked what you were wearing. This was a year ago and she
:52:13. > :52:16.was asked about that. I will happily talk to you about that. Judges and
:52:17. > :52:20.barristers do not ask those questions. You are right. I would
:52:21. > :52:24.put that into the mix. Just stop and think about it, for somebody to go
:52:25. > :52:28.forward and to make an allegation of rape, how likely is it that they
:52:29. > :52:33.would actually make that up when they know what will happen when they
:52:34. > :52:40.do have to go to court and have to relive it? And the idea that people
:52:41. > :52:46.make up rape is absolute nonsense. They do get anonymity. The other
:52:47. > :52:50.important thing to say, is however well judges, lawyers and police
:52:51. > :52:55.officers behave, we talked about the idea of rape culture - there is real
:52:56. > :53:00.truth oh to that. It is ultimately juries who decide. It is right it is
:53:01. > :53:03.vital to preserve the primacy of jury trials and treat them with the
:53:04. > :53:07.seriousness they deserve. But, if you have a culture in which rape is
:53:08. > :53:11.constantly questioned in a way that we really don't question people who
:53:12. > :53:15.claim any other crime has been committed against them. We don't say
:53:16. > :53:20.if you are walking down the street and mugged, well you should not have
:53:21. > :53:27.had money in your pocket! We say on the other hand, you still hear
:53:28. > :53:35.people about wearing short skirts as somehow a contributory factor. Can
:53:36. > :53:44.we bring in views of people at home. Oliver says:
:53:45. > :54:03.Interesting. I just think, you know, as ar chi
:54:04. > :54:08.said it is very -- Archie said it is a very emotive question. Sometimes
:54:09. > :54:13.people rape several times. Because rape victims feel ashamed. Sometimes
:54:14. > :54:18.when somebody else has come forward it allows others to come forward. If
:54:19. > :54:23.we look at cases of child abuse. There is almost safety in numbers.
:54:24. > :54:28.It is a hard balance to strike. The lady here. People are, people don't
:54:29. > :54:33.come forward because the sentence is not long enough. Life is not life.
:54:34. > :54:39.Life is, OK, so I'll be good in prison and they'll let me out.
:54:40. > :54:46.That person has to live with that for the rest of their lives. Like, I
:54:47. > :54:51.am not talking from experience, but the rapist gets to walk free. You
:54:52. > :54:55.feel punishment should be stricter. When you get life, you are given the
:54:56. > :54:58.license of 99 years. You can be recalled to prison absolutely any
:54:59. > :55:02.time. If you are seen with the wrong
:55:03. > :55:07.person. People don't understand that when they say life not being life. I
:55:08. > :55:13.disagree. They should not be let out because they are in prison for a
:55:14. > :55:16.reason. I am not sure it works like that. I don't think people make the
:55:17. > :55:20.decision about whether or not to report a crime based on the length
:55:21. > :55:24.of a sentence that the person will get. What they... I am not saying
:55:25. > :55:28.they don't care about it massively. It is a contributing factor though.
:55:29. > :55:32.They want the person to be caught and found guilty. If they do not
:55:33. > :55:37.think there is a pros eblingt pect -- pross pect of that, that is the
:55:38. > :55:41.thing that -- prospect of that, that is what persuades them. We are
:55:42. > :55:46.talking about such a sensitive subject. There are so many factors
:55:47. > :55:50.to consider. The point the lady with the blue hair made - why should
:55:51. > :55:54.victims be asked such personal questions? The defending barrister
:55:55. > :55:59.has to make sure that beyond reasonable doubt a case has been
:56:00. > :56:06.proven. If the questions are not asked, how can we rely on the
:56:07. > :56:09.judgment made at the end. It is difficult from every angle. We, as a
:56:10. > :56:14.society, have to work out how to make this better for the victims and
:56:15. > :56:18.better for the judicial system. 3%, quite frankly, is not good enough.
:56:19. > :56:21.Absolutely right. That is unfortunately all we have time for.
:56:22. > :56:28.We'll be off air now until the autumn. We are. Thank you for all
:56:29. > :56:31.your comments and tweets. We hope nothing contentious happens in the
:56:32. > :57:01.next few months. See you in September. Good night.
:57:02. > :57:16.Are you sure you want to know what this is all about?
:57:17. > :57:20.I want my daughter. What are you going to do, start shooting people?