:00:00. > :03:51.This program is captioned live. Hello, and welcome to Free Speech.
:03:52. > :03:53.The show which makes your voice heard in the national conversation.
:03:54. > :03:56.I'm Rick Edwards. I'm Rick Edwards. I'm Tina Daheley. And welcome back!
:03:57. > :04:00.Never mind Bake-Off or X-Factor, THIS is the TV return we've all been
:04:01. > :04:03.waiting for. Or at least, I've been waiting for. For the next 12 weeks
:04:04. > :04:07.we'll be here every other Tuesday to talk about the big issues of the
:04:08. > :04:11.day. And, as you know, we can't do it without the help of our audience.
:04:12. > :04:14.All of whom have, of course, been screened for their intelligence and
:04:15. > :04:16.good looks. And this week, all from Edinburgh! Though it's not just this
:04:17. > :04:20.audience which is important but you guys at home. Remember you can Tweet
:04:21. > :04:23.at BBCFreeSpeech or Facebook your comments and I'll put them in the
:04:24. > :04:26.debate. Here are the addresses you'll need. And as those of you who
:04:27. > :04:29.have been following us on social media will know, we'll be talking
:04:30. > :04:31.about the Israel-Palestine conflict and the issue of anti-Semitism
:04:32. > :04:33.tonight. But first, being in Edinburgh there is, I believe,
:04:34. > :04:36.another issue around. Yes, next Thursday Scotland will vote on
:04:37. > :04:39.whether to become an independent country. We've divided our audience
:04:40. > :04:43.into yes over here and no over there. And also here to make sense
:04:44. > :04:46.of it all some of the finest minds from the Yes and No camps. Joan
:04:47. > :04:48.McAlpine, journalist and MSP for the Scottish National Party. Ruth
:04:49. > :04:51.Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party.
:04:52. > :04:53.Actor Martin Compston. And Times and Spectator columnist, Hugo Rifkind.
:04:54. > :04:56.And that's our panel. Question this evening. Would an independent
:04:57. > :04:59.Scotland be a more democratic country? Yes, it would. We only have
:05:00. > :05:02.9% of the MPs at Westminster at the moment. Westminster controls all of
:05:03. > :05:05.Scotland's money and will continue to control it if we vote no so
:05:06. > :05:08.therefore, having all those powers transferred to our own parliament in
:05:09. > :05:09.Edinburgh, which we elected democratically proportional
:05:10. > :05:12.representation, it's definitely an improvement and will make it a more
:05:13. > :05:15.democratic place. The other thing is an independent Scotland will have a
:05:16. > :05:18.written constitution. The UK is unusual, in not having a written
:05:19. > :05:21.constitution to guarantee the rights of its citizens. We would guarantee
:05:22. > :05:24.equality of rights to our citizens and other rights, such as the right
:05:25. > :05:27.to free education, for example, so it will certainly be more democratic
:05:28. > :05:30.than is under the current Westminster system. Roofs, you are
:05:31. > :05:32.scowling. I think one thing Scotland doesn't like if politicians. We have
:05:33. > :05:36.the mud cancellable, UK parliaments, a European level, and I think if you
:05:37. > :05:38.look at the way people vote in Scotland, we understand the
:05:39. > :05:41.differences. Joan talks about proportional representation. We had
:05:42. > :05:43.a referendum on that and Scotland were rejected it. People understand
:05:44. > :05:47.what first past the post is. With just a European election. Joan is
:05:48. > :05:50.part of the most votes. In the European Parliament, they are the
:05:51. > :05:52.second biggest group rather than the biggest. People understand if you
:05:53. > :05:56.work with other people, there is give and take full that we have had
:05:57. > :06:00.18 general elections since the war and for 12 of them, the party of
:06:01. > :06:03.Scotland voted most for form to the Government of the UK. More than the
:06:04. > :06:06.south of England. We have one Tory MP at the moment in Scotland and
:06:07. > :06:09.military Government. We have a coalition Government has double the
:06:10. > :06:12.amount of seed the SNP got in 2012. We didn't vote for a coalition
:06:13. > :06:16.Government. You two, calm down for a bit. The gentleman up there. If you
:06:17. > :06:19.look at the votes alone, combined, there was over one third of the
:06:20. > :06:22.votes for Lib Dem and Tories. Yes, but they voted for a Lib Dem
:06:23. > :06:25.programmer free university tuition which they immediately reversed when
:06:26. > :06:28.I went into cahoots with the Tories. The gentleman here. I think it's a
:06:29. > :06:31.disgrace Joan talks about representation in Westminster when
:06:32. > :06:34.just as many SNP MPs turned up to repel the bedroom tax. There would
:06:35. > :06:37.be no bedroom tax in independent Scotland and the Scottish Government
:06:38. > :06:40.had to take money out of its own budget for education and other
:06:41. > :06:42.things in order to mitigate the bedroom tax to get that it in
:06:43. > :06:46.Scotland with an independent Scotland would have a bedroom tax on
:06:47. > :06:49.the first place. This is exactly the heart of this. This is what it's all
:06:50. > :06:52.about. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Scotland wants a
:06:53. > :06:55.Government that we will vote for every single time at every single
:06:56. > :06:57.election that we can hold accountable, 12 out of 18 or
:06:58. > :07:01.something. We want every single time, so we can stand up to things
:07:02. > :07:03.like the bedroom tax, poll tax, illegal wars. People understand what
:07:04. > :07:06.elections... They know the SNP are the sixth largest group in the
:07:07. > :07:09.European Parliament because they understand when you work in other
:07:10. > :07:13.countries in a union, on a big scale, but they understand when with
:07:14. > :07:17.people you don't always get it all your own way. You are going to City
:07:18. > :07:19.End tell me one out of 59 MPs decide our foreign policy it's fair. It's
:07:20. > :07:23.12 because of the Coalition Government. Do you think that's
:07:24. > :07:26.fair, 12 out of 59? Tell me if you think it's fair. I think it's fair
:07:27. > :07:29.under parliamentary system. People voted for that what they wanted. 12
:07:30. > :07:33.out of 59 is a fair thing? We're part UK Parliament and people
:07:34. > :07:36.understand that. I think Ruth is not going to answer that. If there's one
:07:37. > :07:39.thing Scotland is not about four that the House of Lords. There's no
:07:40. > :07:42.other country in the European Union... You don't need to be a
:07:43. > :07:46.nationalistic one together the House of Lords. Dust and want to get that
:07:47. > :07:50.of the House of Lords. I'm a social democrat and I do not vote for the
:07:51. > :07:53.SNP but the Green party and I simply want what the rest of Europe in
:07:54. > :07:55.countries have which is a fully democratically elected parliament
:07:56. > :07:57.and Government. We started about whether owned independent Scotland
:07:58. > :08:01.would be more democratic country. The thing about independence, it
:08:02. > :08:03.comes both ways. Joan pointed out only 9% of the Houses of Parliament
:08:04. > :08:06.in Westminster comes from Scotland. Under independence, 0% of Houses of
:08:07. > :08:09.Parliament in Westminster will come from Scotland. And yet, in the small
:08:10. > :08:12.collection of islands the UK is, there are facts decided Westminster
:08:13. > :08:14.which will remain decided in Westminster for them it will
:08:15. > :08:17.dominate our currency, even under the SNP fantasy. Westminster will
:08:18. > :08:20.set the tone of tax affairs which an independent Scotland would be able
:08:21. > :08:22.to deviate from that much. Westminster will dictate a lot of
:08:23. > :08:26.immigration policy with an open border. At the moment, Scotland has
:08:27. > :08:29.a vote on that. It would be a weird situation of Scotland have a vote in
:08:30. > :08:32.the European Parliament but not in Westminster when Westminster will
:08:33. > :08:35.affect their lives far more. Personally, I don't want to see it
:08:36. > :08:39.as a permanent solution is our country. I would like to see it in
:08:40. > :08:42.the future like we had New Zealand, when they became independent, for
:08:43. > :08:44.five years, they lose powers and basically after that period, they
:08:45. > :08:52.could establish their own currency and not does have sport with the Yes
:08:53. > :08:56.Campaign. -- support. There's a reason why the Yes Camp talks about
:08:57. > :08:59.that and that's because people don't want to know that their savings and
:09:00. > :09:05.pensions and salaries will be affected. If you're talking with a
:09:06. > :09:14.separate currency from the word go, a Yes Vote would be promising. Let's
:09:15. > :09:18.go to the online audiences saying at home. If Scotland leaves the UK,
:09:19. > :09:20.it'll be a big loss for the Labour Party and so Conservative Government
:09:21. > :09:23.in Westminster will become far more likely if Scotland leaves for some
:09:24. > :09:26.interesting how the Conservatives strongly support the union even
:09:27. > :09:28.though it's not in their own interests and actually helps Labour.
:09:29. > :09:31.Conservative governments for the foreseeable future in England, if
:09:32. > :09:34.Scotland votes yes, if that happens, I will be packing my bags and moving
:09:35. > :09:40.away. How would you respond to someone like this would think of
:09:41. > :09:44.moving away from Scotland? I think it's a ridiculous notion. It doesn't
:09:45. > :09:51.make it any less Scottish if you vote yes or not. The one thing with
:09:52. > :09:57.stuff like that, I think Scotland needs a strong Labour Party.
:09:58. > :10:00.Scotland has support of the Labour Party for decades and I think it's
:10:01. > :10:12.disgraceful the stamp Labour Party has taken here. A neutral stance on
:10:13. > :10:15.this, you could vote with your head and heart of whichever way you
:10:16. > :10:18.support because we need a strong Labour Party free from the shackles
:10:19. > :10:22.of Westminster. We need independence and not the Labour Party run by a
:10:23. > :10:27.numerous urgent Labour Party. We can only get that all independent
:10:28. > :10:30.Scotland. I think what it comes down to in terms of democracy, I'm
:10:31. > :10:33.worried after the recent television debates, could the SNP deliver
:10:34. > :10:46.democracy when they can't even host a common debate without shouting and
:10:47. > :10:52.talking over the opposition? That sort of thing, yes. Who says it's
:10:53. > :10:58.going to be an SNP Government? We can vote for whoever we want. The
:10:59. > :11:01.gentleman here. I think it's ridiculous to suggest if you have
:11:02. > :11:07.51% of the electorate who may be supporting a Yes Vote, they will
:11:08. > :11:26.vote for the SNP. I completely disagree with that. I'm from a
:11:27. > :11:29.staunch Labour Party, and I think the SNP have done well. All my
:11:30. > :11:32.family will be voting yes and voting Labour immediately after. All the
:11:33. > :11:41.polls show Labour voters are moving towards Yes. 18% will vote no,
:11:42. > :11:45.nearly 20%. We know the line, there are tartan Tories were gone SNP, who
:11:46. > :11:48.believe in the UK and don't want to walk away from everything we built
:11:49. > :11:51.in the last 300 years. If we could address the question which came in
:11:52. > :11:54.on Twitter. It's an important one. People like Billy Bragg in England
:11:55. > :11:57.has said a Yes Vote will re-democratise England as well
:11:58. > :12:00.because we can show that social democratic values here in Scotland
:12:01. > :12:07.work and we can stop the NHS being privatised and that will give a real
:12:08. > :12:16.boost to those values in England. You have privatised. You've done it.
:12:17. > :12:19.For the last seven years. We have very little input compared to
:12:20. > :12:24.England. You have increased it by the December sent in the time of
:12:25. > :12:37.your Government. You are wholly in charge. OK, we've got to go back. We
:12:38. > :12:39.are talking about the so-called democracy here in the privatisation
:12:40. > :12:41.of the NHS. What about the transatlantic investment partnership
:12:42. > :12:45.which will destroy agriculture, the NHS, because other corporations will
:12:46. > :12:58.be above our laws and makes as it genetically modified food. You
:12:59. > :13:07.explain that from Westminster? What makes you think the stuff wouldn't
:13:08. > :13:10.happen with independent Scotland? Alex Salmond has said it would be
:13:11. > :13:13.especially good for Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon has gone on record saying
:13:14. > :13:16.it would be especially good for Scotland. John Swinney has said it
:13:17. > :13:21.would be especially good for Scotland. This is a free trade
:13:22. > :13:25.agreement and I absolutely some point you're making but there are of
:13:26. > :13:27.it you want to reserve or vote against, and that's fine, have that
:13:28. > :13:39.negotiation, but don't think for one moment the SNP are not behind it.
:13:40. > :13:42.They are. The TT IP... It applies to health. Large part of the health
:13:43. > :13:47.service in England have been privatised. American companies will
:13:48. > :13:50.be allowed to bid for any NHS work and because Scotland is not an
:13:51. > :13:52.independent country, we would not be seen as separate even though our
:13:53. > :13:56.health services separate so our health service, despite the fact
:13:57. > :14:06.that got less than 1% input from private companies could find
:14:07. > :14:16.themselves outbid. The SNP is totally opposed to any
:14:17. > :14:20.privatisation. Does it back TT IP? Why does Alex Salmond say it would
:14:21. > :14:30.be especially good for Scotland? Hang on. It will not apply to
:14:31. > :14:37.health. Do you back TTIP? No. As you know very well. I think you got the
:14:38. > :14:43.answer there. I'm not sure we did, but OK. Gentleman here? It is not
:14:44. > :14:46.about Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP, we are looking
:14:47. > :14:49.at a Green Party and the Scottish Labour Party, people are engaging
:14:50. > :14:52.with politics for the first time. It doesn't matter who is in government.
:14:53. > :15:01.It is change and something we have to embrace. It is a brilliant point.
:15:02. > :15:05.It is we started talking about democracy. This is democracy at its
:15:06. > :15:08.finest. Walking through the towns, the excitement and the hope, there
:15:09. > :15:11.is a social revolution happening that is happening without any
:15:12. > :15:16.violence the worse we have had is something getting hit with an egg.
:15:17. > :15:19.It is brilliant to see people talking about it and the winds of
:15:20. > :15:22.change are coming and we have this brilliant youth movement and thank
:15:23. > :15:25.God for social media, I know the amount of scare stories have come
:15:26. > :15:38.from a biased media, but people on Facebook and triter are standing up
:15:39. > :15:46.and being counted. The future is not Ed Milliband or Osborne or David
:15:47. > :15:51.Cameron. It is these people here, the youth. It is time for us to be
:15:52. > :16:02.big, brave and take this country back. Voting no doesn't mean we
:16:03. > :16:06.think the union is perfect. We want change, we just don't want to leave
:16:07. > :16:09.it all, I would like to see a federalised United Kingdom, where
:16:10. > :16:13.England gets what it wants and Scotland gets what it wants. It is
:16:14. > :16:23.drastic to leave because some things aren't working. Let's fix it. That
:16:24. > :16:27.is a good point. If Scotland doesn't win the independence vote, how will
:16:28. > :16:31.Scottish people get more of a say in what they want instead of
:16:32. > :16:35.Westminster taking control? Let's for the audience at home, many who
:16:36. > :16:45.aren't in Scotland let's say that Scotland is entirely in charge of
:16:46. > :16:49.health and education. So it is in charge of policing. It has a
:16:50. > :16:52.multiple bound budget and in -- pound budget. What the pro-union
:16:53. > :16:59.parties have said if there a no vote there will be more powers over
:17:00. > :17:07.income tax and welfare. I didn't hear you. There are no details. I
:17:08. > :17:10.there will be more on income tax and welfare. We said we will work
:17:11. > :17:16.together to make that happen and we invite the SNP to join us after a no
:17:17. > :17:22.vote. But what is important... Can I say.? All these areas and still You
:17:23. > :17:25.never apologised for the 200,000 people who have voted and haven't
:17:26. > :17:31.had these powers mentioned. Will you apologise? They have already voted.
:17:32. > :17:36.You have been so vague. You have had these nonsense promises. It has been
:17:37. > :17:39.on our web-site for months. I can't work out what powers this mythical
:17:40. > :17:48.time table and you have the three stooges coming up tomorrow and a
:17:49. > :17:51.Saltire up. It is democracy, the people of Scotland have voted
:17:52. > :17:58.200,000 people should have had the facts. Calm down. You can't have
:17:59. > :18:01.that both ways. It is reasonable to attack the vagueness of the
:18:02. > :18:04.policies, but you have got a yes campaign functioning on a white
:18:05. > :18:14.paper that a proportion of yes campaigners and the yes vote thinks
:18:15. > :18:18.is no blue print. A lot of people disagree with im. -- with it. We
:18:19. > :18:24.said what it is on the first page of the Conservative web-site and it has
:18:25. > :18:33.been there for months. What we have said is we have laid down a time
:18:34. > :18:37.table. You have to build consensus. It is like they're going to give us
:18:38. > :18:40.something on St Andrews day and if there was a haggis night it would be
:18:41. > :18:47.on haggis night. It is so patronising. They think we are daft.
:18:48. > :18:56.The parties had an option of putting a more powers option on the ballot
:18:57. > :19:00.pap eand they did not do that. Nicola Sturgeon negotiated it. We
:19:01. > :19:02.said we were open to that. The important point fis you don't
:19:03. > :19:05.control your finances, you don't really have control. Although we
:19:06. > :19:09.control health and education, our finances are Crombed in London. The
:19:10. > :19:12.proposals we are being offered are a rehash of what we were offered which
:19:13. > :19:22.leaves 85% of our taxes going to London and it keeps hold of the
:19:23. > :19:25.lucrative taxes. The whisky revenue and VAT and controlling income tax
:19:26. > :19:37.is a pig-in-a-poke and people shouldn't be taken in by it. What
:19:38. > :19:41.did you say Hugo? The blue print for independence, the SNP fantasy world
:19:42. > :19:46.is a currency union. That entails Scotland not controlling its own
:19:47. > :19:53.finances. It will be a union dominated by England. You look at
:19:54. > :20:01.the euro... If I may, you look at the euro, a huge currency union.
:20:02. > :20:04.Dominated by Germany and France. You talk about a currency union which
:20:05. > :20:10.only has two partners, England will call the shots and the rest of the
:20:11. > :20:11.UK but specifically England. Scotland will
:20:12. > :20:21.UK but specifically England. its own kourn Su and finances than
:20:22. > :20:27.Greece has now. -- currency. All our taxes, oil revenue. They will be
:20:28. > :20:30.able to control business taxes. There will be conditions, because of
:20:31. > :20:35.the state of Scottish finances. It is what happens in a union. You have
:20:36. > :20:42.a vote in the House of Commons like everybody else. OK, we are we are
:20:43. > :20:47.going to move on. Our next programme is in Cardiff the Tuesday after
:20:48. > :20:52.next. If you want to join the audience e-mail us. And we will
:20:53. > :21:02.discuss feminism and the issues of the week. The next question. All
:21:03. > :21:05.week Free Speech viewers have been going to the choose our question
:21:06. > :21:09.page. Click through tl or the go to questions and it will direct you to
:21:10. > :21:13.the right place and you will see the questions that have been submitted
:21:14. > :21:16.since the end of the last show. The way it works is people pick like on
:21:17. > :21:21.the questions they want to see and we count up the likes to make this
:21:22. > :21:24.leader board. The question at the top was from Daniel who asked what
:21:25. > :21:33.happens if Scotland goes independent and the country starts to fail?
:21:34. > :21:38.Related to what we were talking about. Ruth what happens? First
:21:39. > :21:41.nobody in Scotland wants Scotland to fail, whether you vote yes or no and
:21:42. > :21:48.nobody would work towards that. Everyone would work to making it a
:21:49. > :21:52.success. But I think the best way to look at what you have done in the
:21:53. > :21:55.past is when we have had tough times whether that is post-war, when we
:21:56. > :21:59.were a poor country, the crash we had in 2008, the thing Scots have
:22:00. > :22:12.done well is work across the United Kingdom for a common cause. I live
:22:13. > :22:15.in Glasgow and my sister lives in Newcastle and my best mate since I
:22:16. > :22:18.was seven lives in Liverpool and I can't find three cities that are
:22:19. > :22:26.more alike than Glasgow, Newcastle and Liverpool. The idea you want to
:22:27. > :22:32.put a border between them I... You I find it wrong. We believe in common
:22:33. > :22:36.cause and working together. We believe in making the best that we
:22:37. > :22:42.can and bringing as many people along with us as we can. That is
:22:43. > :22:51.what I want to see in the future and I want to see that no matter which
:22:52. > :22:54.way the country votes. It is important to make the point that...
:22:55. > :22:58.Your party nearly destroyed Glasgow, Newcastle and Liverpool. So I think
:22:59. > :23:05.she could have chosen better examples. Every year... For 33 years
:23:06. > :23:12.Scotland has contributed more per head of tax. So we are pooling our
:23:13. > :23:20.resources to send our money away. I would rather see that money stay in
:23:21. > :23:25.Scotland. Every year we receive more in public spending to the tune of
:23:26. > :23:30.1,200 pound a person. They're offering an in out referendum on the
:23:31. > :23:38.EU. They're the biggest threat to us leaving the EU. And leaving the
:23:39. > :23:42.biggest market of world. We want to stay in, but we want it to be
:23:43. > :23:45.reformed. The Conservative Party being wagged at the tail by UKIP,
:23:46. > :23:48.because they're terrified of losing. You will end up with a situation,
:23:49. > :23:52.the referendum where Scotland votes to stay in the EU if, we vote no and
:23:53. > :24:01.we lose the thing, if we stay, we can vote to stay in the EU. And
:24:02. > :24:10.England votes to leave it but Scotland are forced to leave the EU
:24:11. > :24:13.as part of the UK. It is nonsense. You touched on something that has
:24:14. > :24:16.not been brought up the issue of disability. If Scotland becomes
:24:17. > :24:20.independent the SNP have fledgest pledged the care limits to be in
:24:21. > :24:26.line with the other benefits. Can the other parties offer similar.
:24:27. > :24:29.Because right now, Ruth's government, well the party that you
:24:30. > :24:32.support, your Government has been wrecking lives and that is not good
:24:33. > :24:49.enough and doesn't seem like it will get better if we stay in the union.
:24:50. > :24:51.One of the things we have said is these are decisions like attendance
:24:52. > :24:55.allowance should be devolved to Scotland. But I think one of the
:24:56. > :24:59.things that we have seen clearly in the white paper is there is a lot of
:25:00. > :25:02.promises on spending, there is not much on talking about where the
:25:03. > :25:05.money will come from. As this debate has gone on, there has been promises
:25:06. > :25:09.and promises on spending and spending, but the idea that you cut
:25:10. > :25:19.corporation tax or the big business and there is no other money from
:25:20. > :25:22.anywhere else. I don't understand how you cut tax for the rich, which
:25:23. > :25:25.is the only redistributive measure in the white paper, you keep the
:25:26. > :25:32.political stuff that is here and still manage to spend more, where is
:25:33. > :25:36.the money coming from? The lady here. I understand understand how
:25:37. > :25:41.the rhetoric from the yes campaign is emotive. But I don't get why
:25:42. > :25:49.people have their head in the sand about the pain that is ahead. We saw
:25:50. > :25:55.yesterday the value of companies... What about the pain now? You don't
:25:56. > :25:58.think we will have spending if we go independent? Of course, but this is
:25:59. > :26:01.the point. We started this off talking about who would be
:26:02. > :26:05.responsible if things go wrong. We could be responsible. That is what
:26:06. > :26:09.this is about. We will make mistakes. It witness be easy, but it
:26:10. > :26:16.will be our mistake, the people in Scotland taking control. Will that
:26:17. > :26:19.be te better for austerity. We have 1.3 trillion pounds of debt. We have
:26:20. > :26:30.nuclear weapon, food banks, bedroom tax, it has to be better than this.
:26:31. > :26:34.Hugo? The sad troouft is doesn't have to be better than this. We
:26:35. > :26:39.talked about what happens if Scotland fails, it is important to
:26:40. > :26:43.understand what this means. - truth. There are some will say ten years
:26:44. > :26:46.you will have burning cars in the street and zombies walking around,
:26:47. > :26:49.but that is rubbish, but you talk about is a Scotland that drifts
:26:50. > :26:52.further behind the rest of the UK and standards of living in income
:26:53. > :26:56.and spending and investment and you if ask about what happens if that
:26:57. > :27:07.takes place I believe it will take place. But what happens if that
:27:08. > :27:10.takes place, what happens if that take place is bitterness, it is a
:27:11. > :27:13.political culture in Scotland that will blame the rest of the UK for
:27:14. > :27:20.that, because it will be blamed on the upshot of the negotiations
:27:21. > :27:25.following independence. That is what will happen. And part of reason why
:27:26. > :27:29.I am a unionist and will vote no is because I don't want to see the
:27:30. > :27:41.United Kingdom in which I live torn apart and fighting in that way. That
:27:42. > :27:43.is a frightening prospect. First, the only people that talk about
:27:44. > :27:47.fighting, division, borders is the no camp. That is the only people
:27:48. > :27:52.talking about it. That is not even my point. We are having this debate
:27:53. > :27:58.because Britain has failed. Britain has failed. This is is no good. If
:27:59. > :28:01.you think a new Scottish Government will not continue to blame many of
:28:02. > :28:10.its problems on Westminster, I think you're mistaken. Some comments
:28:11. > :28:13.online. David says, the reason the yes brigade have looked good is they
:28:14. > :28:14.stuck to their message and not complicated, try ballism has -- try
:28:15. > :28:34.ballism is a disaster. Welcome to a third world economy,
:28:35. > :28:44.Scotland. People's views at home are valid, does he have a point? Days
:28:45. > :28:49.ago, I distributed food parcels in Dumfries and people were A couple
:28:50. > :28:54.ofdoes he have a point? Destitute because of sanctions imposed by the
:28:55. > :29:00.Tories in London. People are destitute now. 400% rise in food
:29:01. > :29:02.banks in Scotland. In certain sections of society, they have been
:29:03. > :29:06.hit worst, disabled people, single parents, it's absolutely appalling,
:29:07. > :29:08.and this is what this is about. It's about making Scotland a more humane
:29:09. > :29:21.place by putting Scottish policies in and Scottish people in charge.
:29:22. > :29:25.The gentleman here. The reference that Britain was broken, if it's
:29:26. > :29:37.broken, surely all of Britain is to blame and not just England. People
:29:38. > :29:39.say are not blaming England. All I've heard from both campaigns is
:29:40. > :29:42.about currency, what's going to happen and what powers will be
:29:43. > :29:45.devolved, but what's going to happen in terms of representation because
:29:46. > :29:48.that's all anybody wants to know, who will be represented? Women and
:29:49. > :29:51.other liberation campaigns are always under represented, and young
:29:52. > :30:08.people and old people, what will happen? We want representation. I
:30:09. > :30:11.don't know the political model of the SNP for an independent Scotland,
:30:12. > :30:14.but what I think at the moment is that we need more people to find
:30:15. > :30:18.their voice, not just in this country but all over the world and
:30:19. > :30:22.one of the things I'm very proud of and I would take issue with the man
:30:23. > :30:26.who said Britain was broken, I think the UK plays its role in the world.
:30:27. > :30:29.You look around the world and we are the second biggest giver of aid
:30:30. > :30:32.anywhere. There are people alive in the world today because we shoulder
:30:33. > :30:35.the burden. I'm not saying independent Scotland would do that.
:30:36. > :30:37.I look around the world at the immunisations programmes run out of
:30:38. > :30:57.Scotland, different programmes keeping people alive in Africa, and
:30:58. > :31:03.that makes me proud to be British. Scottish, too. What about Nestle? No
:31:04. > :31:10.one here from Nestle to defend themselves and we can't talk about
:31:11. > :31:14.that. I'd like to raise an issue about the finances. Alex Salmond
:31:15. > :31:17.keeps saying about the oil but these resources will eventually get used
:31:18. > :31:33.up so it means we have to raise taxes. We country the world who sees
:31:34. > :31:38.oil as a burden. We the only country who has got poorer since we have got
:31:39. > :31:41.oil. It's going to be there for a long time. I think we will be more
:31:42. > :31:47.than successful without it but a huge bonus and we should not
:31:48. > :31:50.underestimate it. It's important to understand the reality of the
:31:51. > :31:52.situation because oil has been mentioned a couple of times to
:31:53. > :31:58.write, Scotland contributes more than it takes back which is
:31:59. > :32:01.marginally true because of oil. What that means as it's happening already
:32:02. > :32:04.because of oil, so an independent Scotland, oil will provide no more
:32:05. > :32:12.money, it's not like there's more money taken away. All that is being
:32:13. > :32:20.used raising the money per head in Scotland to a level it's already at.
:32:21. > :32:23.Just briefly, I think we should be aware, I'm not saying oil is a
:32:24. > :32:28.burden but it's not the answer to everything. Every financial gap is
:32:29. > :32:31.not going to be plugged. Moore was wiped off Scottish companies in a
:32:32. > :32:35.single day yesterday than be raised in oil revenue in the entire year,
:32:36. > :32:38.more is spent on welfare just in Scotland every single year for the
:32:39. > :32:42.last ten years than the entire tax from the entire North Sea for the
:32:43. > :32:48.last ten years, so let's put this in context. This isn't an unlimited
:32:49. > :32:51.fund. It's about making sure people understand exactly what the
:32:52. > :32:54.contribution of oil is, yes, a good contribution to the economy, but it
:32:55. > :33:09.does not understand every -- answer every problem for Scotland. Ratings
:33:10. > :33:11.agency said it without North Sea oil would qualify for its highest
:33:12. > :33:18.economic assessment if we were independent. We have many strengths.
:33:19. > :33:20.We have a ?13 billion food and drink industry, tourism, creative
:33:21. > :33:26.industries, universities amongst the best in the world. I have real faith
:33:27. > :33:30.in people of Scotland, we will succeed whether or not we have oil,
:33:31. > :33:34.but it gives us a fantastic head start. I would much rather sit in
:33:35. > :33:42.control of the people of Scotland than Ruth's colleagues in London.
:33:43. > :33:44.OK, we're going to move on now. As you know, throughout the summer
:33:45. > :33:48.there was serious conflict in Israel and Gaza. When we were looking into
:33:49. > :33:52.the issue we came across a young British man who was planning to
:33:53. > :33:58.leave the UK to join the Israeli army. We spoke to him about his
:33:59. > :34:02.experience. This is a Facebook status. He's gone to Israel to fight
:34:03. > :34:06.for the Israeli defence Force. In its ongoing campaign to massacre the
:34:07. > :34:10.Palestinians. There's a lot of harsh comments like, he should be in
:34:11. > :34:19.prison on terrorism charges. He has tricked us. It makes me feel
:34:20. > :34:30.justified in my decision. He is so ugly, oh my God, what a total go
:34:31. > :34:40.ahead. Israel says its targeted militant sites. This was a mosque
:34:41. > :34:43.hit by six Israeli bombs. Even if you are the strongest critic of
:34:44. > :34:48.Israel, there was an atmosphere of hostility towards Jews. That makes
:34:49. > :34:51.me feel that maybe it is difficult to live in the UK, especially in
:34:52. > :34:54.France and general in Europe. It makes me feel I need to live
:34:55. > :34:59.alongside like-minded people who are my brothers and sisters. I believe
:35:00. > :35:05.in the cause of IDF also whether I agree with every action does is
:35:06. > :35:16.another question. I have no issue whatsoever joining an army defending
:35:17. > :35:19.its people. A lot of people, when they start seeing an opportunity to
:35:20. > :35:23.attack Israel, they attack Jews as well. In Manchester come there's
:35:24. > :35:31.been a significant increase in anti-Semitic crime. You have Jewish
:35:32. > :35:36.cultural institutions like the Jewish film Festival being banned
:35:37. > :35:39.from theatres. When you have MPs calling for a city to be Israeli
:35:40. > :35:42.free, not just IDF free, no Israeli academics, Israeli culture, Israeli
:35:43. > :35:55.tourists, are we living in the 1930s? How can that be seen as
:35:56. > :36:05.legitimate? Are the protests against Israel encouraging anti-Semitism?
:36:06. > :36:08.The interesting thing about that little programme we just watched is
:36:09. > :36:14.that as a young man who was emigrating to another country hoping
:36:15. > :36:19.to join his army. That's what some people want to do. Now, people could
:36:20. > :36:22.do that are lots of countries for that this could be somebody
:36:23. > :36:25.emigrating to Nigeria and joined the Nigerian army, join the French army,
:36:26. > :36:28.the Turkish army, if we see that as different what we just watched, to
:36:29. > :36:36.all those examples, we are getting into a dangerous place. I don't
:36:37. > :36:46.believe that criticising Israel, supporting Gaza, necessarily entails
:36:47. > :36:49.anti-Semitism. Of course not. I frequently criticise Israel in the
:36:50. > :36:53.columns are right for them I'm proud to be Jewish. However, I think very
:36:54. > :36:59.often, it does bleed into anti-Semitism. Not always
:37:00. > :37:01.deliberately. It can be done carelessly, but it is Scottish
:37:02. > :37:04.audience will understand, people who criticise Scotland in a way which
:37:05. > :37:08.could infuriate and irritate Scots far more than they mean to and I
:37:09. > :37:11.think quite a lot of the time, when people talk about Israel, and
:37:12. > :37:14.criticise it, they end up holding Jews in this country responsible for
:37:15. > :37:23.it and in a manner which would not happen with any other ethnic groups.
:37:24. > :37:27.Obviously anti-Semitism is on the rise in this country and Europe and
:37:28. > :37:37.especially in France and need to be on top of that. Wheels is a need to
:37:38. > :37:42.make the important distinction, the anger at the Israeli state, people
:37:43. > :37:45.aboard the Israeli Government. Many Jewish people across the world and
:37:46. > :37:49.Israel as well protesting against that. When you see them targeting
:37:50. > :37:56.militants, they took out an entire streets, it's disgusting, war
:37:57. > :37:58.crimes. At the same time, you have to remember this particular cycle
:37:59. > :38:07.starts and three Israelis were murdered. There's a rising but not
:38:08. > :38:08.distinguish between anger at the Israeli Government and the Jewish
:38:09. > :38:16.people. I think anti-Semitism only comes in
:38:17. > :38:19.the small-minded people, but anti-Semitism is wrong but what's
:38:20. > :38:36.going on in that part of the world is also very wrong. What the Israeli
:38:37. > :38:39.state may or may not do may be wrong but to criticise, people can also
:38:40. > :38:42.criticised Hamas for sending thousands of rockets into Israel,
:38:43. > :38:45.which nobody mentions either, or the fact people have to run to bomb
:38:46. > :38:52.shelters which are in every building in Israel, and they have a couple of
:38:53. > :38:56.minutes notice to get there. That's why there have been such less loss
:38:57. > :38:59.of lives, but I tend to think the media campaign on this particular
:39:00. > :39:03.conflict, when so much is going on in Syria and Iraq, and a lot of
:39:04. > :39:06.stuff in Iraq is down to the British going into Iraq in the first prize
:39:07. > :39:16.and the stable in it, we responsible for killing 180,000 Iraqi civilians
:39:17. > :39:19.but nobody seems to mention it. It's very asymmetric for some it seems to
:39:20. > :39:22.be easier to protest against a democratic state than to process
:39:23. > :39:31.against ISIS, to boycott Israel but rather than criticise ISIS and a
:39:32. > :39:34.mass movement. There hasn't been a public outcry about what's happening
:39:35. > :39:39.in Syria and Iraq like there is about Gaza. It isn't what's
:39:40. > :39:43.happening in Gaza is right, but there are so many people dying every
:39:44. > :39:55.day and this is the media focusing on it. Do you agree? It works in
:39:56. > :40:00.other ways as well for that we have seen attacks on Muslims because of
:40:01. > :40:03.the stereotyping of their religion. I'm a great admiring of the Jewish
:40:04. > :40:06.contribution to our culture and history which is properly second to
:40:07. > :40:08.know other people, but I would distinguish that completely
:40:09. > :40:10.know other people, but I would actions of the Israeli Government at
:40:11. > :40:21.the moment, which are disproportionate. Tina, what are
:40:22. > :40:26.people saying at home? This one comes from Sebastian on Facebook.
:40:27. > :40:29.Like the Islamic state, ring the reason is a phobia exists, and the
:40:30. > :40:31.actions of countries like Pakistan. The Zionist values and the
:40:32. > :40:38.persecution of Jewish people justify Israel's persecution of the
:40:39. > :40:52.Palestinians. What do you think about that? Is Darren defending
:40:53. > :41:01.Israel? He believes he is defending Israel. I mean, this isn't something
:41:02. > :41:04.conflict. I have been there several times, mainly in a professional
:41:05. > :41:12.capacity and I have family in Israel as well. -- simple conflict. It's a
:41:13. > :41:14.mess. The Government have a destructive policies brought a long
:41:15. > :41:18.time and no reasonable leadership they can speak to in Gaza, because
:41:19. > :41:23.they have killed a lot of them and those that haven't killed up
:41:24. > :41:26.Palestinians killed. It's a terrible mess and you reach a point where
:41:27. > :41:30.reasonable behaviour is no longer possible and I question whether, if
:41:31. > :41:32.we were sitting here and now on the threat of rocket attacks, from near
:41:33. > :41:42.neighbours, our behaviour would be much better than Israel's. The more
:41:43. > :41:45.we try and portray Israel as a pariah state, the more be in with a
:41:46. > :41:48.true maddening of the world, the more ageing lines Israel's behaviour
:41:49. > :42:00.to be poor, because what's left to lose? It's not about the Israeli
:42:01. > :42:11.state matter orange Hamas but about innocent civilians dying. People
:42:12. > :42:14.seem to forget that. I think also, yes, Israel is under attack but it
:42:15. > :42:17.also has hundreds of thousands of pounds coming from America as
:42:18. > :42:31.opposed to Gaza, which doesn't have that protection. The lady in the
:42:32. > :42:35.red. They have millions of dollars coming from Qatar for example. It's
:42:36. > :42:41.not like they are underfunded. They choose to use that money building
:42:42. > :42:44.terror tunnels. So, you know one side has chosen to protect its
:42:45. > :42:49.people, which is why fewer people die, and the other side choose to
:42:50. > :42:52.exploit of. And sadly, I think the media campaign, it was terrible, the
:42:53. > :43:01.coverage in the last conflict, very, very biased. I think we have to be
:43:02. > :43:05.careful that we cannot confuse our nation state with a face or
:43:06. > :43:12.religion, so you have to separate the state of Israel from the face of
:43:13. > :43:16.Judaism. These things are not concurrent for the BS, Israel is a
:43:17. > :43:18.Jewish state, but there should be no anti-Jewish backlash for what the
:43:19. > :43:28.nation state in the world does, and I think let's not get wrapped up in
:43:29. > :43:35.the hierarchy of suffering. There are casualties here from both sides,
:43:36. > :43:39.but primarily on one side. And we have to be able to help and the way
:43:40. > :43:43.we can do that in a conflict, which has been going on since before I was
:43:44. > :43:45.born, is stop the violence, so a cease-fire, get people around a
:43:46. > :43:48.table, and try and find leaders within communities who can work
:43:49. > :43:52.together and there is no glib sound bite or easy answer to this full
:43:53. > :43:56.service there was, it would've been fixed by now but I think we have to
:43:57. > :44:01.try and do is try and take the foot off the gas in terms of blaming
:44:02. > :44:05.people. Don't get me wrong, there is blame on both sides here. Let's not
:44:06. > :44:07.be blind to it, but there has to be a movement within the international
:44:08. > :44:10.committee to facilitate that and that's not picking sides, that
:44:11. > :44:26.getting people around the table because there's been going on for
:44:27. > :44:29.decades and it needs to stop. It has to be a two nation state. The people
:44:30. > :44:38.of Gaza need to be protected by international law. It is always wort
:44:39. > :44:41.comparing what happens in Gaza with the West Bank. What happened there,
:44:42. > :44:48.the other Palestinian territory used to be similar. But over the course
:44:49. > :44:54.of the last ten years, two things have happens. Well three things.
:44:55. > :44:57.They have built a great big wall. That is more contentious than the
:44:58. > :45:01.rest of what I'm about to say, but they have cracked down in security
:45:02. > :45:05.terms and there has been massive economic investment. I have been
:45:06. > :45:08.into the West Bank, you drive through and there is a mobile phone
:45:09. > :45:15.network and coffee shops and a thriving industry there. When you
:45:16. > :45:19.have thriving industry you have a lot to lose and when you have a lot
:45:20. > :45:22.to lose, you're more encouraged to dialogue and the people you have
:45:23. > :45:27.dialogue with are more wary of destroying the infrastructure. When
:45:28. > :45:34.there is nothing else there it is very easy to fight, because you have
:45:35. > :45:37.nothing else to do. To come back to the question about the effect on
:45:38. > :45:39.anti-Semitism, it has caused anti-Semitism, they're lumping in
:45:40. > :45:42.the actions of the Israeli state with Jewish people and this a
:45:43. > :45:45.present even in Scotland when you have bog ts like George Galloway
:45:46. > :45:48.making hot headed statements and you get backlashes and hate from both
:45:49. > :46:04.sides and people who are identified as Jewish or Muslim. These debates
:46:05. > :46:07.encourage people to identify themselves to with the actions on
:46:08. > :46:16.the ground and that makes it more difficult for sensible, reasonable
:46:17. > :46:19.people to be heard. And what you get is people like George Galloway
:46:20. > :46:27.dominating the debates, specially in the countries that are not involved
:46:28. > :46:30.in the conflicts. I think the way we end anti-Semitism is by educating,
:46:31. > :46:33.but not just educating the children in school now, but the people who
:46:34. > :46:36.have more extreme views we need to teach them to have respectful views
:46:37. > :47:00.and deliver them in a respectful way. But how do we do that? Well...
:47:01. > :47:03.It is not easy! It is not how we do it. Is how they do it there. They
:47:04. > :47:07.have to do it within themselves, teach other and get around the table
:47:08. > :47:14.and work from there and bring a better Israel and Gaza. The power
:47:15. > :47:17.bar is back. And here what is the online audience think. We have been
:47:18. > :47:21.running this question at the bottom of our screen. This is the power
:47:22. > :47:28.bar, just use the hashtag Free Speech yes or no to give us your
:47:29. > :47:35.view. We have had some answers in. 48% think yes, 52% think no. And the
:47:36. > :47:37.comments we are getting from Jade, this protest against Israel and not
:47:38. > :47:47.IS, because our government supports the former. Sean says the protests
:47:48. > :47:51.are encouraging anti-Semitism. Israel is doing that by itself.
:47:52. > :48:01.Yes? What concerns me this a in 2014 the op way to solve problems in the
:48:02. > :48:06.world is through murder and war. That worries me. I think going on,
:48:07. > :48:08.there has been certain deals done by Britain, David Cameron was actually
:48:09. > :48:11.just involved in a negotiation which sees Britain actually helping with
:48:12. > :48:17.the idea of trying to control the Islamic states there. That concerns
:48:18. > :48:22.me. I think that we can do so much more and I think there is lot better
:48:23. > :48:25.ways of dealing with these issues. I also think if we look at the
:48:26. > :48:29.uprising of different groups, separatist groups, whether it is in
:48:30. > :48:31.Nigeria or IS, if if you look in Nigeria they only came into
:48:32. > :48:35.inception in 2009, we should ask what is it we are doing that is
:48:36. > :48:53.causing so many people to feel so disenfranchised from the society
:48:54. > :49:03.that they need to kill each other? I think that is what we need to
:49:04. > :49:19.discuss. I think you're probably right, but were going to move on to
:49:20. > :49:26.our final question. James? Can I ask the panel what will happen to my UK
:49:27. > :49:33.identity? So what will happen to this gentleman's UK identity if
:49:34. > :49:46.Scotland votes for independence? Either. Martin? Again a answer is I
:49:47. > :49:48.don't know. You will still consider yourself British. Its not just
:49:49. > :49:52.Scotland and England, there is four partners, I assume there will still
:49:53. > :49:56.be a United Kingdom, unless... The other nations feel energised by what
:49:57. > :50:00.we have got and I include England in this and want self rule and we will
:50:01. > :50:08.all be better, unless it is Wembley or trick nap, we will be better pals
:50:09. > :50:14.if we are all on an even footing. What did you mean by your question?
:50:15. > :50:20.The problem I have, I'm English, not a problem, but... But I have
:50:21. > :50:26.Scottish children, so am I going to be separated from a national
:50:27. > :50:34.identity from my own children. I live and work in Scotland, but I
:50:35. > :50:37.still see myself as English. There is a chap there who is wearing an
:50:38. > :50:44.English Scots for yes badge, perhaps he would like to answer that
:50:45. > :50:47.question. He would. I'm not going to get too angry this time. With
:50:48. > :50:50.regards to British and English identity, the White Paper suggests
:50:51. > :50:54.those who are using UK passports can continue with them all it is if you
:50:55. > :50:56.continue to be born in Scotland after independence, you become
:50:57. > :51:08.Scottish and that is not necessarily a bad thing. I would like to keep
:51:09. > :51:10.Scottish and that is not necessarily British passport, I have family in
:51:11. > :51:12.Buckinghamshire, I'm proud to be living in Scotland and have the
:51:13. > :51:16.opportunity living in Scotland and have the
:51:17. > :51:19.living here you shouldn't be threatened by the idea you're going
:51:20. > :51:27.to be taking part in the Scottish civic state. If there is a poss
:51:28. > :51:31.yiblgt to be -- possibility to be the a member of the community after
:51:32. > :51:44.independence, I don't think that will stop me from being British. We
:51:45. > :51:49.all live on the same island, Scotland will not drift off into the
:51:50. > :51:54.attack. Do we know that for sure? I think so. We don't have chain saws
:51:55. > :51:57.ready. The point is of course your identity won't change. We will still
:51:58. > :51:59.have all the shared bonds that we have between Scotland, Wales,
:52:00. > :52:03.Northern Ireland, England, we are still going to be friends with these
:52:04. > :52:08.people, but we are voting for a more democratic fair irstate with our
:52:09. > :52:14.vote counts. We get the government we vote for. It is about democracy.
:52:15. > :52:17.We were talking about what happens if an independent Scotland fails,
:52:18. > :52:20.but the union has already failed and a lot of people in Scotland, we have
:52:21. > :52:29.people in Glasgow where their life expectancy is lower than African
:52:30. > :52:35.nations. We can change that with a yes vote if we vote yes. It is about
:52:36. > :52:40.making a fairer society. Of course we will still have the bonds, but
:52:41. > :52:47.its about democracy. The gentleman at the back. It is clear the UK has
:52:48. > :52:51.problems and that London, or government is too centred on London.
:52:52. > :52:52.But we don't have to break up the UK to fix those problems. The debate
:52:53. > :52:58.has been brilliant that we have been able to for the first time talk
:52:59. > :53:04.about the constitutional make up of the UK. I think now we have had this
:53:05. > :53:07.discussion we can improve it, we don't have to bluntly slice off
:53:08. > :53:18.Scotland from the top. There are better more perfect ways to fix the
:53:19. > :53:21.country. I think Scotland could have been bankrupt in the financial
:53:22. > :53:24.crisis if it wasn't part of UK, because the Royal Bank of Scotland
:53:25. > :53:27.was bailed out by the UK. Scotland would never have been able to
:53:28. > :53:36.shoulder that weight by itself and the help would have had to come from
:53:37. > :53:41.England. Ruth? Back to James' question about identity. I can't
:53:42. > :53:47.answer James' question. I don't think anyone could and I don't think
:53:48. > :53:50.the White Paper does. I can only talk for myself with identity, I
:53:51. > :53:59.feel twice blessed, I'm Scottish and lived and worked here all my life.
:54:00. > :54:03.But I get to be British too. I feel like can I kind of flow between them
:54:04. > :54:08.in a way I'm not sure I'm able to articulate. If we do vote
:54:09. > :54:15.independent and in eight and a half days I hope we don't, I will feel I
:54:16. > :54:19.have lost something. It is inevitable when Britain no longer
:54:20. > :54:25.has Scotland as a part of it, people will feel less British. One of the
:54:26. > :54:29.difficulties that people across Scotland have had in is in campaign
:54:30. > :54:32.is that the tale they have been told by those proposing yes that
:54:33. > :54:43.everything will change but nothing will change. But starting a new
:54:44. > :54:54.country, things will change. It is rich talking about health. You have
:54:55. > :54:57.got to weigh it up and with identity that is something people have to
:54:58. > :55:00.take with them. Whether they want to walk away or work together. Opinions
:55:01. > :55:03.from people at home, this one is from, we have lost one, Ritchie, why
:55:04. > :55:09.is it your Scottish, English, Welsh... I have lost that one too!
:55:10. > :55:21.The technology is failing. Harvey, I wouldn't want to see a British flag
:55:22. > :55:26.with no blue. It is just not right! Final call from you on this Joan.
:55:27. > :55:30.When Ireland left the union the cross of St Patrick remained in the
:55:31. > :55:33.Union flag. So there is no pressure to change the Union flag. I think
:55:34. > :55:42.the other point is Scandinavians can be Danish, Norwegian and still feel
:55:43. > :55:49.sclachltian. We are back in a fortnight when we will be in
:55:50. > :55:58.Cardiff. You don't have to wait until then to join in our Facebook
:55:59. > :56:05.page is waiting for you questions. Click like on the questions you want
:56:06. > :56:08.to see on the programme. And in 2 days you can watch thousand of 16
:56:09. > :56:16.and 17-year-olds talking part in the big debate. It is at the Hydroin
:56:17. > :56:25.Glasgow. Thank you for an excellent debate and good night.